Raising Medicare Eligibility: Obama's Pink Slip Notice

Of all the disagreements I've had with President Obama over the years, this could be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. I strongly suspect I'm not the only one who feels this way.

A generational war is the last thing Obama or the Democrats need.

< Obama Goes There: Sources Report WH Proposal To Raise Medicare Eligibility Age | Tuesday Morning Open Thread >
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    Preach it, Sister J! (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 05:49:44 PM EST
    How dare he.

    Maybe this will be (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by SOS on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:52:01 PM EST
    the odd "tipping point" incident that finally shoves the zombified American public into some mode of animate engagement with the reality that lies beyond reality TV.

    How dare he? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:44:04 PM EST

    Medicare is a program that on balance transfers wealth from the poorest, brownest, and blackest age cohort to the whitest and wealthiest.  What else would you expect of a progressive like Obama?



    No. (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by masslib on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:48:16 PM EST
    Where do you get that from?

    Demographics (none / 0) (#75)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:53:54 PM EST

    You seem do be in denial.

    Really (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:52:19 PM EST
    I think you are confusing Medicaid with Medicare.

    Medicare is paid for with a Medicare Tax on wages and the users pay a monthly fee. If you are below a certain income level you pay less.


    Really (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:52:19 PM EST
    I think you are confusing Medicaid with Medicare.

    Medicare is paid for with a Medicare Tax on wages and the users pay a monthly fee. If you are below a certain income level you pay less.


    Not at all (none / 0) (#76)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:57:23 PM EST

    The monthly fee in no way covers the cost.  The population 65+ is both whiter and wealthier than the worker bees hit by the payroll tax.  

    Demographics (none / 0) (#81)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:09:36 PM EST
    bear out what Abdul is stating. There have been many studies done that indicate white middle class or higher females have a better life expectancy than any other demographic.

    However, crude statistics don't look at what happens, for instance after 30, what any demographic group's life expectancy is.

    If I recall, after 30, in the US, racial differences wash out while gender differences remain.

    In other words, someone nonwhite at 30 has the same likelihood of living as long as someone white, given that this is gender specific-- white males compared to nonwhite males, and so forth.


    Another way of saying the same thing (none / 0) (#110)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:53:23 PM EST

    If I recall, after 30, in the US, racial differences wash out while gender differences remain.

    Those black and brown 20 somethings paying the payroll tax but never living to collect Medicare is part of that wealth transfer from poor to wealthy.


    The actual data show (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:27:10 PM EST
    that the differences are narrowing to a matter of a few months now between races.

    The most recent U.S. data (released in 2010 for mortality as of 2007) show that average life expectancy for white men is 85.6 years vs. 84.9 years for African American men; for white women it is 87.4 years vs. 87.1 years for African American women.  

    For data on Hispanics and others on your color spectrum, the actual facts can be found here

    And if you factor in racial and gender disparities in income for many past decades and thus in contributions to Medicare, the result has been arguably the reverse of what you suggest.


    Life expectancy is only part of the cause (none / 0) (#133)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 06:47:14 AM EST

    Life expectancy is only part of the cause for the wealth transfer from young, poor, black, or brown to white, wealthy.

    There are three main drivers.

    1. The 65+ is the wealthiest age cohort.
    2. The average age of black/brown is less than that of white.
    3. White life expectancy is longer.

    Even if you ignore the racial aspects Medicare is still a wealth transfer from the relatively poor to the relatively wealthy.

    Can't make the assumption (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:30:11 PM EST
    that you make about black and brown who die before 30 being workers and contributors to the system. Aggregated employment/FICA data doesn't support your argument.

    You should be asking and insisting on a different question: "Why do nonwhite non-Asians die at higher rates between birth and 30, or birth and 27 to match up with available data, instead of whites and asians?  The system was always designed for people to die before getting benefits.  Use critical thinking, come up with a hypothesis and a null, and I'll work with you to find the answer. Seriously.  If your  need refinement, which they will,   simply as a part of doing actual research, don't get   angry.

    This is science, and the answers are out there.


    Look under "lifestyle" (none / 0) (#139)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:23:50 AM EST
    Which can be driven by economics and lack of opportunity.

    Look under "lifestyle" (none / 0) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:23:50 AM EST
    Which can be driven by economics and lack of opportunity.

    Sorry for the double posts (none / 0) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:32:39 AM EST
    don't know why.. using Google Chrome.

    You do know, don't you (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:22:06 AM EST
    that there is a Medicare wage tax.

    If you claim that all the old white people are rich then you have to agree that they paid more in the medicare payroll tax.


    No wages (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:12:25 AM EST
    One portion of the difference is that the very wealthy don't get the majority (if any) income from wages... they get it through manipulation of their pay packages (why do you think they want to be paid in stock?) and/or capital gains from investments/real estate etcetera.

    So... no, they don't pay more in a medicare payroll tax.


    Joke: How do salesmen from Hawaii... (none / 0) (#177)
    by lambert on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:34:33 PM EST
    say "F*** you"?

    * * * *

    "Trust me."


    Who says it will be a generational war? (5.00 / 8) (#3)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 05:57:59 PM EST
    I have baby boomer parents who are going to get hit by the cuts that he is proposing and I am in turn going to be hit as a result - then I have to figure out what I do because I am forced to divert some of my resources to make up the difference for my parents.  I am GenX and I really do not have that much time to recover from this huge economic downturn, take care of my parents AND provide for myself - not in an economy that is driving wages and earnings down like this one is.

    I think that most generations are going to feel this pain - even the one just coming into the world will probably find that their parents are having to deny them things in order to help grandparents and even themselves.  It is not looking good for ANY generation.

    Yep, living with your folks again (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:18:36 PM EST
    would be such fun, huh?

    This is the lesson in history that has to be taught now.  Ask the remaining old folks who were young during the Depression what it was like to have to defer marriage and families of their own, because they had to help support their old folks.  Ask what it was like to finally get out on their own, only to have to take in the old folks again.

    Those are the stories from my family, tragic stories such as that of the grandma whose fiance had to keep putting off the wedding for years while helping his folks.  The couple finally married in 1941.  Then came the war, and he was exempted from the draft because his skills were needed in a munitions plant here.  The overwork killed him.  She was left a widow with an infant and no insurance, no GI Bill, no nothing -- except his dying wish that she continue to take care of his parents as well as hers.  

    And she did, so she never married again.  

    Every family needed a spinster then to take care of the folks.  Looks like that term will be coming back under the Great Obama War Against the Baby Boomers, In His Ongoing Need to Deny That He Is One and Pretend That He Is Still Just a Kid.


    The truth is that if the generations (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:34:12 PM EST
    that follow the Boomer generation had a hope in hell of actually doing better in the current and forecasted economy, the pain would be potentially minimized, but they do NOT.

    We are all just going to be poorer and have fewer ways to work out way out of that poverty.  Which is probably basically the plan.

    Our only real hope might be in the retail lobby who would view the destruction of consumer buying power in the United States as an extreme threat to their potential economic success.


    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:43:42 PM EST
    but I wouldn't hold my breath.  In recent decades business leaders have been all too short sighted focusing on big profits now.  They'll continue to screw their employees and work to defeat organized labor.

    I remember hoping that employers who provide health care insurance to their employees would be enthusiastic about a universal single-payer system, that they would all want to get past the private health care insurance industry and control providers.

    Didn't happen.

    Yet still our only hope is as you say.  During the Progressive era some progress was made because elites suddenly saw themselves in jeopardy.  When they can't build walls high enough they may go along with reforms.


    The only thing I would change in your (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:45:33 AM EST
    comment is that all generations are going to feel this pain. From the Kaiser Family Foundation (PDF):

    Premiums in the Exchange would rise for adults under age 65 by three percent (an additional $141 per enrollee in 2014), on average, due to the shift of older adults from Medicare into the pool of lives covered by the Exchange.

    Medicare Part B premiums would increase by three percent in 2014, as the deferred enrollment of relatively healthy, lower-cost beneficiaries would raise the average cost across remaining beneficiaries.

    In addition, costs to employers are projected to increase by $4.5 billion in 2014 and costs to states are expected to increase by $0.7 billion. In the aggregate, raising the age of eligibility to 67 in 2014 is projected to result in an estimated net increase of $5.6 billion in out-of-pocket costs for people who would otherwise have been covered by Medicare.

    For the people who are more interested in the political ramifications than the real life effect on people, I agree with this comment by Jon Walker:

    In addition to being a horrible policy that would hurt tens of millions, while producing relatively little savings, agreeing to this bad idea would destroy Democrats current 2012 political advantage which was caused by Republicans embracing Paul Ryan's plan to eliminate Medicare.

    Approving this retirement increase just as Democrats were starting to repair the damage done with seniors as a result of voting for Obamacare would be political devastating to the party.

    You'll be "sharing the sacrifice" (none / 0) (#5)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:01:35 PM EST
    of Obama's disdain for Boomers.

    We all will in one way or another. (none / 0) (#6)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:07:55 PM EST
    That was my point.

    This move will create a contraction in the market.  It doesn't matter if you benefit directly from either Social Security or Medicare.  The reductions on those fronts will affect our economy in profound ways.

    I just can't wait for Obama's healthcare law to be enacted (written sarcastically) because while people are still trying to figure out how to catch up after taking massive economic hits, the government will compel them to buy expensive private health insurance on top of it all!


    The really perverse thing here... (5.00 / 11) (#4)
    by Romberry on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:01:29 PM EST
    ...is that one of the best ways to lower Medicare's costs (in terms of the ratio of dollars paid out versus Medicare premiums paid in per beneficiary) is to lower the age of Medicare eligibility rather than raise it.

    Younger people tend to be healthier and consume fewer health care services. The really big bills for Medicare tend to come in with end of life care. Lowering the age of eligibility would be a smart step* towards lowering total health care costs and would in fact cost less than the subsidies that are scheduled to be paid out to private insurers for junk insurance under the ACA.

    Up is down. Down is up. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. And Obama is a Democrat.

    *And the smartest step would be Medicare for All.

    Another way to lower (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:17:55 PM EST
    Medicare costs is to allow competitive bidding for prescription drugs.  Duh...

    That too. (5.00 / 8) (#28)
    by Romberry on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:02:40 PM EST
    Remember when it looked like the Senate was gonna do just that, and Obama leaned on Reid to delay the vote so he could twist some arms so that it wouldn't happen? Had to keep his promise...to big Pharma.

    Ah yes. Yes indeed. (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:16:27 PM EST
    But that would cut out the Insurance Companies.

    Now we can't have that, can we?


    Privatization is the plan (none / 0) (#159)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:18:33 AM EST
    Obama is a republican.  Republicans want everything privatized.  One step was the ACA and transfering money from the middle class to the wealthy through a scheme called 'insurance'.

    Obama is just ratcheting it up... kicking more people out of medicare and into the private market.

    You're not appreciating that it's a jobs plan.  If the conservatives can increase the cost of major sectors of the economy through privatization, wages will collapse and the poor, burdened internationals will move jobs back to the US.


    And the timing (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:11:48 PM EST
    Just as I'm about to reach the longed-for Medicare eligibility age, he's going to yank it away from me for another two years.

    Ditto. (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:32:29 PM EST
    Same as Jeralyn, too -- all of us born at the peak of the boom, so we've had a lifetime of seeing what that means.  Bigger elementary schools finally were built only after us and our classes of 60 to 70 -- without enough teachers trained by the GI Bill yet, and many trained teachers home still having more babies (and often not allowed to teach if mothers), so I had "teachers" with two-year nursing degrees teaching me.  We put up with constant construction on our college campuses, too, where I was in classes of 500 and more crowded into too-small lecture halls with us sitting in aisles; I remember some were standing-room only.  I remember other classes that required typewriters, so I bought a portable and brought it to beg my way into classes.  

    And our numbers meant, with the laws of supply and demand, that we got hit with soaring costs of housing, for rent and then for homes of our own -- the difference in share of take-home pay for housing costs from our parents' generation to ours is striking.  So we had to have two-income families to have homes of our own, and without the child-care facilities ready for our kids yet.  And without the child-care tax deduction that came too late for most of us, yet again.

    So we were scolded for not saving enough -- throughout almost half a century now of ever-greater hits to our paychecks for taxes and Social Security and Medicare . . . but we were told that the increases in Social Security for our parents to retire were in return for the promise that the next generation would do the same for us.

    Well, you know the story all too well.  

    So you also know that we are the generation that went into the streets once before, and if we have to do so again, I hope hope hope that we do.

    Of course, we also are the generation that saw more than 100,000 of us just leave this damn country when it wouldn't listen to us and wouldn't let us vote but let us die in an unjust war before.  So maybe this war will send us away again, and we can just leave the detritus to the d*mn pols that betray us all of our lives.


    Heh. I can't afford to leave now. (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:52:36 PM EST
    But when I saw how close the cruise ships come to the shore, well, allow me to say I'll be emailing the Pirate Crew with some suggestions. Hey, we'd get medical and dental and 3 hots and a cot if we get caught, right?

    This pirate crew member is (5.00 / 7) (#27)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:01:16 PM EST
    desperate for suggestions. If we can't afford a boat of our own, and it seems we cannot, maybe stowing away is the answer.

    I am feeling so very beaten down by all of this. I find myself fantasizing about confronting every supposedly liberal Democrat in Oregon who insisted in 2008 that Obama was the savior and the future of the Democratic Party, and verbally beating them about the head and shoulders.

    That wouldn't solve any of our problems, but my therapist tells me that my habit of internalizing my emotions is not healthy. Externalizing this massive anger I've built up sounds better every day.

    When do we take to the streets?


    I'm down for the streets (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:13:41 PM EST
    after I re-study logistics... method to my madness. If it's just the Pirate Crew, we can borrow or 'liberate' a boat.

    I'm trying to come up with ideas, but right now, in this economy, it's



    Planning is key. (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:22:23 PM EST
    While there is some appeal to having medical and 3 hots and a cot, not ending up in the hoosegow is even more appealing.

    I have been reading up on the anarcho-syndicalists from the Spanish Civil War. I was inspired by your comments here a few months ago about them and the communes. There are lessons to be learned.

    I am trying to think and plan and not succumb to despair.


    I'll have enough seeds saved (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:46:45 PM EST
    to grow a whole produce dept after this season (over a dozen tomato varieties!). Some chickens for eggs and a dairy producer and we could be pretty well set. I've gotten pretty good with fish dishes also this year :)

    Around the Mediterranean... (none / 0) (#167)
    by lambert on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:15:48 PM EST
    ... it seems to be not "the streets" but "the squares." Not sure what the US equivalent is. Bank lobbies? The local FOX station? The malls?

    Hey, mateys! (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:19:31 PM EST
    I think that I could enjoy a cruise with caseyor and jeffinalabama! as we sail off to find friendlier shores.  

    Aaarrrg.  Practicing pirate talk here.  And I have a parrot toy, so we would not have to figure out how to feed it and ourselves, too, on the cuisine that will be dished out to us all:  Catfood a la Obama.


    Always room for one more (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:24:15 PM EST
    on this pirate crew. And the parrot is a nice touch. Fake authenticity has a certain appeal.

    I think my Indian Ringneck would (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:43:22 PM EST
    like a parrot toy for a friend :)

    Ya know, the pirate ship is sounding a heck of a lot more comfortable than under the bus these days isn't it. And it's going to get a LOT more crowded under here with all the Doomers joining (those that hadn't been thrown under previously, that is)


    Porto Bello or Tortuga. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:46:18 PM EST
    I can navigate us to either. Tortuga's off of Haiti, and a lot easier to find.

    Just sayin'.


    Me, too. (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:01:39 PM EST
    And it's too dam hot out there to go out and take out my frustrations by splitting a buncha firewood.

    The streets? (none / 0) (#144)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:44:53 AM EST
    We can't even get together enough to stop kicking the dog....the streets?  Americans?  Still got a little too much to lose, and we're house-broken puppies here, 20-30 years into the police state age...scared of clubs, gas, and the goons that wield them.

    I'm getting shot... (none / 0) (#136)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:21:26 AM EST
    before I get caught, full disclosure to my mateys:)  

    There are worse things than no medical, no dental, no food, and no place to lay your head...namely slavery and cages.

    That being said I'm still open to suggestions...just need to make room for my moms, her retirement might be pushed back two years and I can barely stomach her working now...and its just for the health benefits, and they ain't even that good. She's paid her dues, this is some bullsh*t.

    Dare I say maybe lunatic Bachmann is right...don't raise the limit, fund our interest payments, ss & medicare, fed employees paychecks (lowest earners first) on existing revenue, and thats it.  At least the DEA goes away, the occupations go away, and all the other bad news spending...might be worth giving up the optional good stuff spending for a little while, starve the beast and rebuild it in a better image.

    Or just default and reopen under a new name, new ownership...United State of Ourmerica or something.  Sh*t any other option is preferable to keepin' the grift going on the backs of the sick and the old...how f*cked up can we be.


    how old is (none / 0) (#141)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:30:58 AM EST
    your mom, if I may be so nosey?

    62... (none / 0) (#143)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:39:36 AM EST
    she tells me she has to wait for 65 for the decent medical bennies.  I believe it could be swung with my siblings and I helping out and her partial SS covering the bills, but the medical is the killer....she's got scripts for high blood pressure and isn't the healthiest.

    Open to any and all suggestions Shooter if ya know something we don't.


    Well, my buddy (none / 0) (#153)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:20:39 AM EST
    fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, I have some experience in these things. Lemme get some work I have to do this morning outta the way and I'll be back at you.... probably with a few questions, if you wouldn't mind. o.k. pal?

    Sweet... (none / 0) (#154)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:26:58 AM EST
    my email is in my user info Shooter, if its not a bother.  Thanks.

    From Bob Dylan (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by the capstan on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:13:25 PM EST
    (by way of the Bible and a spiritual):"Yes'n' how many ears must one man have ...?" and "Yes' n' how many times must a man turn his head Pretending he just doesn't see?"

    How many words were wasted, blowing in the wind, trying to raise a caution flag?  How many warnings went unheeded 'cause the words came from a racist, an Appalachian, and all who remained disenchanted by 'hope and change'?

    I like "If I had a Hammer" better (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:02:59 PM EST
    right now.

    I love that song (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by CST on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:11:26 AM EST
    Was listening to it the other day and thought how relevant it still is.

    When I hear it in my head it's with my mothers voice on her guitar.  Which she hasn't played in well over a decade.


    When I went off to school in the early 60s (none / 0) (#95)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:55:07 PM EST
    I took one record (you remember LPs?): The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan. 'Almost wore the grooves out. Heck, one time in the later 70s, my sister, her good friend, & myself sat through a rainy Dylan concert in hefty trash bags...the concert later became known as "A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall" concert. Memories. Of Dylan. And--most important--the words, the ideas of the music.

    I still know most of the words by heart. And, I'm originally from Pennsylvania, the Alleghenies, the Coal Mining Region north of Harrisburg and south of Scranton. Catholic, Polish, the whole 9 yards...an eary, strong Hillary supporter. Now: I'm still hopeful. It may sound odd to say in this venue, but I have come to trust that President Obama can move us forward--out of the swamp we found ourselves near the end of this first decade--that he has the best make-up in today's circumstances to do that than anyone else at this point. He is human; there have been missteps (not the least of which is the need to appreciate my down-to-earth Pennsylvania relatives)...but, I genuinely feel that he is getting there & he is growing and has grown tremendously thus far.  

    Just maybe he has heard what the wind has brought us.


    :-) hope y'all like it (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:14:30 PM EST
    Got it engraved in my head (none / 0) (#119)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:36:43 AM EST
    like a lot of the stuff from that era.  Thank you, but I actually can't listen to that one in particular.  Last time I did, I wept uncontrollably and very uncomfortably for a long time.  The most powerful music of that time is all too tied up with being gassed and with King and then Bobby Kennedy assassinations.

    Then you'll probably have a problem (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by sj on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:41:14 AM EST
    with this one, too.  Which can still bring a tear to my eye all these years later.  Dion

    Yes, like gyrfalcon, I still am (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Towanda on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:16:04 AM EST
    taken back by the music of the times to the heartbreaks of those times -- and yes, that amazing tune by Dion still does it to me, too, and especially in the videos with some of the still-powerful images of those sad times, time after time of death and despair in this democracy.

    I hope you'read (none / 0) (#98)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:03:36 PM EST
    correct, Christinep.  I also must admit to a certain fondness for a Polish place called Koshone's in the Poconos... it wasn't the Polish spelling, but it was the sign. They had a table for bowling. And kids could have one short beer or one short highball, but no more.

    Sheriff's deputies would stop in, see the kids, and get a cooler. They started that way, too.


    I hate autocorrect... (none / 0) (#99)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:04:54 PM EST
    I hope you're correct... not what was published.

    The Republicans may save us... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by trillian on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:18:47 PM EST
    It's insane out there (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:04:54 PM EST
    black is the new white.

    So let me get this straight (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by coast on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:24:25 PM EST
    Medicare, the program that Obama himself said was put on sounder financial footing due to the increased taxes (that will take effect 2013) and cuts in payments.  So was he lying then or is he lying now?

    he is always lying (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Bornagaindem on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:27:26 PM EST
    cuts in payments (none / 0) (#71)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:51:45 PM EST

    Cuts in payments that drive providers out do not make the program sounder.  

    Let me pose this: (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:27:32 PM EST
    Grover Norquist protegees in the GOP think Democrat, at least in name, Obama's cuts go too far.

    Any heads about to explode yet?

    I'm waiting for Chemical Ali...I mean ABG to tell me this was all part of the 11 dimensional chess plan.

    Hopium has been known (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:34:15 PM EST
    to destroy brain cells. :-)

    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:22:17 PM EST
    They're sitting there laughing their a$$es off watching a "Democrat" destroy the crown jewels of the Democratic Party.

    Now the conservatives who've yearned for destruction of Social Security and Medicare can sit back and watch it unraveled and they don't have to take the heat.  They can even make statements in opposition to juice up their political credibility.

    Once again, can we drop the whole Obama is brilliant thing.


    Yes, once again, the choices are (none / 0) (#180)
    by Towanda on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:28:38 PM EST
    that Obama is a dope or a dupe.

    These are not the choices that we needed now.


    It's just irrelevant (2.00 / 1) (#18)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:33:25 PM EST
    to the actual negotiations that are occurring.  It's like Obama said, "let's just throw out the biggest number possible and have $4 trillion in tax cuts", did it and then everyone focused on that while the real deal was being cut.


    Wait a second.

    Hello real negotiations.


    chemical Ali! (none / 0) (#24)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:53:21 PM EST
    I thought you were dead!

    You mean Comical Ali, right? (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by desertswine on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:28:59 PM EST
    Better known as Baghdad Bob.

    I stand corrected. (none / 0) (#48)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:47:49 PM EST
    Thank you, desertswine.

    Gotta admit (none / 0) (#96)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:59:41 PM EST
    That was funny. A new nickname is born. There are no US troops!

    What makes those (none / 0) (#25)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:54:33 PM EST
    negotiations "real" and Obama's offer not "real"?

    No idea (none / 0) (#97)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:01:42 PM EST
    What is real. I just know it's all tactics. New story out says Obama dropped the hammer and said there must be tax increases. Don't believe that til I see it either. BUT I don't think he can get thru the house without them for the dems so it seems like it could turn out true.

    I don't know how YOU feel... (none / 0) (#168)
    by lambert on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:19:49 PM EST
    ... about having your health and life being used as a bargaining chip. Personally, it makes me a little ticked. This should never be an issue in the first place. First, Obama passes RomneyCare, derived from a Heritage Foundation paper. Next...

    Doomed (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:07:22 PM EST
    Boomers are doomed.  We are between the Greatest Generation and the Me Generation.  They had it out for us for years.  We took all the fun, now they are coming back at us.  Sore losers.  A few years of rock'n roll, sex and drugs and they want to kick us now when we are old.  

    Ok, we will give you tie dye.  

    So, are you sayin' we are now (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:10:56 PM EST

    generational war (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:31:46 PM EST
    A generational war is the last thing Obama or the Democrats need.

    last thing the Democrats needed, but that ship has sailed, imo

    left port January 8, 2008, ran aground May 31

    some may not like hearing this

    that alone does not make it untrue


    Add to that (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by sumac on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:03:11 PM EST
    I am a fulltime online college professor (one reason I don't type much here since I type plenty in my work) and could also point you to some resources or make some recommendations.

    please email me (none / 0) (#54)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:07:45 PM EST
    sumac... jeffinalabama at gmail dot com?

    just emailed you (none / 0) (#56)
    by sumac on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:15:10 PM EST
    i know we have not conversed here at TL, but i feel like i have gotten to know you from reading your posts.

    A study was conducted by (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:24:29 PM EST
    Tricia  Neuman and Juliette Cubanski of the Kaiser Family Foundation that gives, to me, an optimistic assessment of the effect of raising Medicare eligibility to 67 from 65.  Federal spending would be reduced, on net, by about $7.6 Billion in 2014 (a gross savings of $3l.l billion offset by new costs of expanded coverage needed under Medicaid ($8.9 billion), federal premiums and cost-sharing subsidies under the ACA Exchange ($7.5 billion), and a reduction of Medicare premium receipts of ($7.0 billion).

    Costs to employers is projected to increase by about $4.5 billion in 2014 and costs to states about $0.7 billion.  There would, that year, be an increase of about $5.6 billion in out of  pocket costs (cost shifting it is called) by those who would have been covered by Medicare.  Of course, none of takes into  account the $500 billion that was to be squeezed out of Medicare to support the ACA with previous larger base.  All of this "change" will result in savings about equivalent to a couple of weeks in Afghanistan, calculated at $2 billion a week.   This is about ideology, in my view, not savings.

    Obama, constitutional scholar (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:28:40 PM EST
    from James K. Galbraith:

    It is as though Lincoln in 1861 faced with the siege of Sumter had sat down with Confederate commissioners to see what could be worked out. [. . .] what do we have, from a President who claims to be a member of the Democratic Party? First, there is the claim that we face a fiscal crisis, which is a big untruth. Second, a concession in principle that we should deal with that crisis by enacting massive cuts in public services on one hand and in vital social insurance programs on the other. This is an arbitrary cruelty. Third, a refusal to stand on the strong ground of the Constitution, against those whose open and declared purpose is tear that document and the public credit to shreds.

    Um...Lincoln did negotiate (none / 0) (#164)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    until it he was sure it was pointless. For one thing, he offered to evacuate Sumter if the Virgina legislature would adjourn without seceding. "A state for a fort is no bad business".

    Look at the narrative today (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:10:13 PM EST
    Every news story is about the fact that the GOP will not concede anything for the sake of avoiding disaster.

    Here in the thick of things for those that are political junkies we see the weeds of Medicare age limits and revenue offsets and such.

    I talked to my parents today and all they get from all of this is that the dems are trying to be reasonable and the GOP is not.  Regardless of how horrifying some of the stuff going back and forth is, it appears that we are seeing a real breakthrough in terms of a real picture of the scenario coming to the average American.

    That will ultimately serve us well. As we battle over Obama it is hard to keep in mind that bigger narrative which will be the most important factor long and short term.

    You. Are. A. Joke. (5.00 / 8) (#105)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:16:19 PM EST
    Yes, certainly, old folks on SS and medicare, and poor folks on medicaid are the financial problem in this country.  That you buy into ANY of this, when we waste trillions hand over fist on billionaires and Wall Street crooks and useless wars, proves you are a fool beyond measure.  I can't be nice.  Your lack of intellectual ability is staggering.  

    But nothing is Obama's fault, we know, we know, tell us some more.


    And look, I'm sure you are a decent guy (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:21:12 PM EST
    I don't think you strangle kittens, don't spit on old ladies, etc.  BUT...I cannot respect or understand your utter lack of critical thinking when it comes to Obama.  The lack of forthright logic angers me, deeply.  I apologize for the joke title on the subject line, I should've been my own editor.  I can be the world's biggest a-hole, just like anyone.  Peace.

    Plenty is obama's fault (none / 0) (#114)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:21:30 AM EST
    If the forum wasn't so one sided there would be room for me to discuss those points and focus on points of fault. The problem is that all of obama's real faults and a bunch of made up ones are covered by others.  But one note choruses bore me and I do like the role of the contrarian willing to provide a slightly more moderate perspective.

    The moderate one is every bit as valid. Not blue dog.  Just a little more moderate.


    You are just going to have to pardon (5.00 / 10) (#107)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:28:15 PM EST
    me for not being able to accept what the media tells us day after day about pretty much anything; these are the same people who were cheerleaders for the Iraq war on the basis of a mountain of lies, who - with some notable exceptions - asked no tough questions, held no one's feet to the fire, and sold - sold - the American people an unnecessary war that we have spent oceans of money on.

    What are they selling now?  A debt and deficit crisis that isn't a crisis.  Night after night, we get garbage from "experts," all of which does little but make people afraid - just as all their crap reporting did on Iraq.

    And they love disaster.  They love the imminent train wreck of default.  They are nearly breathless over it.  So, why wouldn't they be reporting the news in whatever way drives the disaster, cranks up the fear?

    Medicare eligibility requirements are not "weeds;" what, exactly, is "weedy" about "you can't get Medicare until you're 67?"  Nothing.

    With all due respect to your parents, I don't think you are going to find a majority of people approaching the age of 65 to be feeling that it is reasonable for Obama to be offering to delay their ability to enroll in a government-administered health insurance plan that, you know, actually works.

    Honestly, I have no idea where you get these delusional ideas that any of what is happening is serving "us" well; it's just not.

    Whoever has likened you to Baghdad Bob is dead on; seriously, you should send Obama's people some samples of your analysis - there might be a spot opening up soon as the new Minister of Propaganda.


    Regarding "The Media" (none / 0) (#130)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:11:25 AM EST
    Really should be, "The Media".......RIP

    Today's "media" is doing exactly what its supposed to be doing: Providing the lies, distortions, and propaganda its Corporate masters expect it to do.

    Post Reagan, when "the news" ceased being " the fourth estate," a "respected calling," or an " honorable loss leader " within a larger media enterprise, and became a "Profit Center," the die was cast.

    Almost every major problem we face as a country today can trace its birth to the election of Ronald Reagan. You know the saying, "garbage in, garbage out?" Take one ignorant actor, mix with one awol, addicted, ne'er-do-well, and what do you get?

    Today's bastard child......."the Tea Party."  


    So in the future.. (5.00 / 7) (#109)
    by Left of the Left on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:42:34 PM EST
    when people are struggling to get by on reduced benefits, or forced to work X amount of years more in order to finally claim what is rightfully theirs I imagine nothing will comfort them more than the fact that one day, long ago, Obama won the narrative war.

    Oh, bingo (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:53:09 AM EST
    Exactly right.  I'm sure that's going to make me feel loads and loads better as I struggle to find a way to pay for both heat and food every winter.

    If that's what your parents believe... (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by lambert on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:25:31 PM EST
    ... then you're a lousy son for not trying to educate them out of their delusions.

    So when you don't want to look at polls (none / 0) (#108)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:41:14 PM EST
    you refer us to your poll of two: your parents.

    Yesterday, you were proud to boast about the RCP polls that showed Obama's approval rating had soared a whole point.

    Yet today, you talk about your parents rather than the RCP polls that show Obama fell behind again, even before the latest concessions.

    So give us a sneak preview:  Who will we hear from tomorrow?  Your survey of the guy at the next desk on Wall Street?


    I refer to polls (none / 0) (#115)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:22:53 AM EST
    And anecdotal evidence.  They both work to progress the discussion in various ways.

    That is the funniest evasion (none / 0) (#122)
    by Towanda on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:40:03 AM EST
    yet.  Yes, the opinions of thousands in the polls and the opinions of your parents both work to advance the discussion in your various ways.

    Just as both pennies and trillions of dollars both advance the federal budget in various ways.  You bet.  You really, really aren't on Wall Street and handling people's money, I hope, with your marvelous views on mathematical values.


    So, you're asking elders to die earlier... (none / 0) (#175)
    by lambert on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:29:02 PM EST
    ... so President F*** You can win the day on the narrative?

    If that's not what you're asking, then what are you asking?


    You're Not The Only One Who Feels That Way (5.00 / 5) (#132)
    by john horse on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 05:57:17 AM EST
    re: Of all the disagreements I've had with President Obama over the years, this could be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. I strongly suspect I'm not the only one who feels this way.

    Social security is my litmus test regarding whether someone is a Democrat or not.  You can't be in favor of cutting Social Security and be a Democrat.  For me, its as simple as that.

    I am a Boomer ..... (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by samsguy18 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:04:27 AM EST
    Four years ago I felt so good about my future
    since then my defined pension plan was redefined to cash balance which essentially cut my benefits by 75%....my savings pretty much tanked...and now SS and medicare benefits  may disappear ! Despite what you hear healthcare institutions have had to downsize and cut salaries....although I have my job I find myself with twice the workload... 14 to 16 hour days and many more weekends on call. Then I hear the Brillant One who has never really held a job other than "professional politician " ( his words) make stupid  comments ! I didn't have the luxury of Benefactors in my life....quite frankly I find his comments insulting !

    Thank you for your comments (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:23:28 AM EST
    I've often wondered what the compounded economic affects are on people in your age group.  I can read items but usually I only get a story about one branch of your reality you are trying to survive, and nobody but nobody talks about what is really going on in pensions.  You just don't get hard figures or facts on that.  It is like an agreed upon hard information black out is taking place there.  I live in this military bubble.  My family is the golden child of the current political climate and culture.  But I know bubbles when I'm in one.  I feel very torn sometimes when other mil bloggers worry about and want us to focus on something that they are proposing to cut on us because so many other people are hurting so much more.  Some people are doubled over in economic pain.

    Many people in their 50s (5.00 / 4) (#145)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:59:15 AM EST
    are getting hit hard now. Three highly educated, skilled people that I know have lost their jobs (2 in last 2 mo.). Regardless of the laws on the books, age discrimination is alive and well and they will have a hard time finding any employment let alone at their previous salary. One of the three, has been unemployed for a while and can't even get a low paying job to keep his house since employers deem him overqualified.  

    It Is What It Is.... (5.00 / 5) (#155)
    by samsguy18 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:30:42 AM EST
    I'm a firm believer in you do the best you can with what you've got ! I am blessed in more ways than I can count....however there are many boomers whose lives are forever changed by job loss, savings have disappeared, their pensions no longer exist and their health has suffered from the devastating stress. Obama's draw for the 18-25 age group in 2008 was demonizing the Boomers. I hope this younger generation clues in to the fact Obama is a disingenuous pretender.

    Take a step back on the negotiations (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:07:56 AM EST
    and ask yourself why we "have" to negotiate anything, much less the cvrown jewels of Democratic social programs, given that the debt ceiling limit has been routinely increased with no such quid pro quo time and time again.

    It is because our Fearless Leader wanted to tie the limit to cuts in "entitlements."  He opened ht edorr ot all this.

    As 49 yo straddling the Boomer and Gen X line, I can say a lot of Gen X have had it with Obama as well.  He is a turncoat through and through and nothing is worse.

    anyw way to edit and correct typos? (none / 0) (#148)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:11:08 AM EST
    Nope :) (none / 0) (#151)
    by sj on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:16:06 AM EST
    You just add a corrective comment or leave it us to figure it out.  I think I've got this one:

    "He opened ht edorr ot all this" = "He opened the door to all this"


    Amen, Jeralyn n/t (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by kempis on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:07:44 AM EST

    I'm a pre-Boomer (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:13:59 PM EST
    A War Baby.

    As far as I'm concerned:

    We're all Boomers Now.

    But can we still tease them? (none / 0) (#172)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:24:13 PM EST
    Nope (none / 0) (#191)
    by cal1942 on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 05:41:43 PM EST
    My wife, my daughter (born in last
    "official" year of the boom) many friends, etc. are boomers.

    wow finally a straw that breaks your back (3.50 / 2) (#15)
    by Bornagaindem on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:28:06 PM EST

    This is all a big hubbub (2.67 / 3) (#16)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:30:20 PM EST
    about something that is not going to happen.

    The left is simply generating the outrage required to solidify Obama's position as a good faith negotiator.

    Meanwhile, the parties met today to talk about the real deal that needsto get to 2.4 trillion in cuts while giving dems what they need to get it through Pelosi in the House.

    This medicare business is a story about a negotiation that is not even happening.

    This is an absurd line of reasoning... (5.00 / 7) (#60)
    by masslib on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:19:19 PM EST
    First, who is to say it's not going to happen?  Second, he can no longer run as the protector of the New Deal, not a great position for a Democrat in a general election.  Third, the entire Party now has a huge campaign problem.  What are they supposed to say?  Vote for us, we'll protect your benefits from Obama, but do vote for Obama up ticket anyway.  Please, imagine this is President John Edwards, or President Hillary Clinton, are you still so glib about this sort of proposal from a Democratic President?

    Where there has been smoke with him (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:34:15 PM EST
    it has been proven that there is fire.  At this point I hope that his smoke about only one term is a small fire that will grow.  Otherwise I fear he has doomed the party much like LBJ was headed into.  What would it take for him to open the door for a new Dem candidate tomorrow?  He isn't doing anything that anybody I know believes in, perhaps we can sway Michelle on this and get her to understand that too since he said that her support seems to be the deciding factor.

    Better yet, recruit her (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:37:37 PM EST
    we might actually get some decent meals :)

    Seems very likely she has a lot more (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:38:39 AM EST

    so we are puppets? (none / 0) (#21)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:41:49 PM EST
    i think the puppet is Obama

    Ah c'mon (none / 0) (#32)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:13:01 PM EST
    We are not puppets...we (everyone) is in the middle of hard negotiations. In my experience, all kinds of things get thrown around--some not so nice--but, after all, it will be the bottom line that counts.

    BTW, I do agree that there should be the greatest hue & cry from the left to counter the right. I'll partake in that too.  (Yet, lets separate the negotiations acting from ultimate results & individual perception.) For this time, we all here need (except for the obvious Repub shills) double :) :) and giant kisses & hugs.  Heck, at least we appear to be having the long needed push-pull and all-out debate about spending & taxes...the reality of what a "balance" might suggest. And, that is a h*** of a lot better than the religion of no new taxes grown & accepted by many in this country since 1980.

    It is gonna' get better...if it doesn't "kill us" first, say what!


    My 'negotiations; (5.00 / 12) (#44)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:37:33 PM EST
    include asking family members if I can live with them, since I have no job, and since my unemployment insurance barely pays my bills and child support.

    The problem here lies with a president who has no spine. In 1980, even with what Reagan was able to pass, the dem's fought back.

    OBAMA DOES NOT FIGHT. His negotiations cost me my job... lack of fed money.

    Now, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger... well, let's see. I've been shot, stabbed, hit by shrapnel, been exposed to asbestos and depleted uranium, vaccinated without choice and forced to take medicines without choice, I shot and killed and wounded people and called in air strikes to do more of that.

    I've gone to houses of dead comrades to comfort grieving families. I've taught half of a generation that the US is a good place, but we need to look at things from outside of psychology.

    So... I have health issues, a buttload of them, directly related to being a boomer and being "the person on the wall, the person to make sure you slept well at night," or something like that... a few good men scene there, sorry.

    My life expectancy as a veteran is 10 years less than the average civilian. Cancer rates for vets-- certain cancers, are up to 100 times more likely.

    And here's the bonus: Niether you nor Obama has to be in my mind at night, after I've gone to sleep. Trust me, you don't want to be there.

    Me and folks like me have been sacrificing for this country for 50 years. We served, we got jobs, had children, and paid our mortgages.

    I'm not "The greatest Generation," I got my first paying job other than a paper route at 14, and I've worked ever since.

    I don't need to be told about sacrifice or compromise or how I'll be stronger because of this. I won't.

    I'll be weaker and older and face the same frikkin' nightmares and worries.

    To hell with Obama and his cowardly plans. We don't need to get along. We have different wants and needs. Obama panders to the rich folks' wants, and ignores the needs of people like me.


    Jeff: You do me a great honor to tell your story. (none / 0) (#66)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:36:50 PM EST
    Thank you. I don't say this lightly, because your pain is profound: Please hear my prayers.

    Christinep, please pray (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:00:20 PM EST
    for the president, for my family, and for everyone suffering. My life is just one. A lot of folks are hurting badly, and getting older, and we are worried about the nature of government itself, considering its obvious flaws. We want to live, retire, and so forth, but we're invested in being Americans.

    Between W and Obama, the plutocrats are taking away what 'being American' means.  Not in a good way, either.


    Yes, I will (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:31:08 PM EST
    Your request about remembering & praying for those, like yourself now, who hurt, who suffer...your request humbles me. I will honor it.

    At the same time, I would ask that--when the clouds have lifted, when you are given the power to live fully again--please please reflect that some like myself see no comparison between what Bush represents & what Obama can represent. There is a difference...I believe that with all my heart.


    christine, i do sincerely hope (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:35:55 PM EST
    that Obama will redeem your great faith in him

    no snark whatsoever

    as always, you present your views with patience & civility & even kindness

    Obama should be honored to have a supporter like you


    Oops. Almost forgot (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:35:55 PM EST
    the words of my dad--a man who came of age during the Depression, worked in the CCCs, and believed that there was no greater President than FDR--which words were: "Christy, beware the Plutocrats>" I always remember that; I always believe that.

    Ah, You believe. (5.00 / 5) (#91)
    by Romberry on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:37:10 PM EST
    My suggestion is that you put your heart on hold and try using your head. What you believe so strongly does not comport that well with a great many facts. In area after area, Obama has made the worst of the Bush abuses into bi-partisan consensus. And in more than a few areas, he has out-Bushed even Bush.

    You want to believe? Fine. I have no problem with people wanting to believe. Maybe you could start the Church of Obama.


    Good for you, dear gentle (none / 0) (#93)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:50:25 PM EST

    Come thou no more for ransom, gentle herald:
    They shall have none, I swear, but these my joints;
    Which if they have as I will leave 'em them,
    Shall yield them little...

    Every day 18 veterans commit suicide (none / 0) (#118)
    by suzieg on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:34:06 AM EST
    In my experience (5.00 / 7) (#80)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:05:19 PM EST
    no Democrat has ever, EVER offered up the safety net for cuts.  Never.  Not ever.  Never.  Not once.

    Truth be told, no reasonably responsible Republican has, either, other than GW's little flirtation with privatizing SS.


    The GOP's "little flirtation with (none / 0) (#82)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:15:54 PM EST
    privatizing SS" is an understatement, indeed. My suggestion: Speculation about what the negotiations hold and the conditions and links that they may or may not include is little more than that...speculation; far better to wait it out.  I'm not much of a gambler, but I would take any bet that would contend that the GOP isn't out to destory all the so-called entitlement programs that are a central part of American family life.  Again: Who offered up what & in what context is no more that conjecture...and, when we stop & think about the history of it and the today of it, we all know that. What can I say, but "It is not wise to throw out the baby with the bathwater."

    No, the GOP: isn't out to destroy (5.00 / 7) (#123)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:40:58 AM EST
    all the "entitlement" programs in this round, Obama's the one doing it.

    No kidding, Christinep, you're getting seriously separated from reality.  What Obama offered the GOP on SS and Medicare is not speculation.  It's widely being reported from multiple sources that were in the room, and the White House not only hasn't denied it, but Obama's been bragging about it.



    What I am now seeing reported (none / 0) (#179)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:18:27 PM EST
    is that--on top of the Ryan privatization-for-Medicare bill overwhelmingly supported by the Repubs this spring--that Repub leader Eric Cantor offered additional significant cuts to Medicare during the recent high-level debt ceiling negotiation session (@$350B, I believe--see TPM today.) While it has been reported by the press based upon an unnamed source that the President offered to raise the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67 over a period of years, there is nothing that has been acknowledged in writing by the players. Compare: The latest Repub attack on top of their Ryan reality is the Cantor proposal contained in writing, in a memo.

    As for purported Social Security attacks: We certainly can document Republican incursions beginning with the infamous "spend my capital" Bush wade-in to Social Security privatization foray. And subsequent similar arguments about the costliness of Social Security by his fellow Repubs. What we heard President Obama say at his press conference the other day is that he would be willing to approach minor Social Security strengthening (as opposed to downsizing, weakening Repub suggestions over the years...on record)changes in exchange for revenue (tax) increases on the wealthiest, etc. He explicitly ruled out "cuts." (Any suggestion to the contrary is only based on admitted speculation of what may be the give & take of a negotiation session. Period.)

    What appears to be really happening, gyrfalcon, is that President Obama is succeeding in calling the Repub hardliners' bluff. As minor testament to that, this am's WashPost story starts using adjectives with regard to the Republican position such as "hardliners" (on taxes.) Those stories--wP & others--are painting a picture of the voice of reason v. voice of recalcitrance. And, how is that? According to news write-ups, the language is portraying it more & more that way...and, more & more, my go-to politically neutral type friends are offering that opinion to the same effect. Anecdotal, maybe; but, it bears watching.

    Shades of Bill Clinton...and the skillful use of triangulation.


    i do see that Obama is winning (none / 0) (#181)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 02:57:17 PM EST
    the perception battle among the Beltway's Very Serious People - that is clear

    also clear is that Beltway VSP perceptions generally have little if anything to do with the actual lives of real working people everywhere else

    you see the Deal from last December as not having been a net loss for Obama (& Dems) - on that point i agree with BTD, that the Deal was a big mistake on Obama's part

    where you & i can agree is that the December deal is done & this is where it has left us


    Addams Family: Please accept my hand (none / 0) (#183)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 08:55:47 PM EST
    across cyberspace. Yes, we are where we are.

    I've been slow in getting back to your comment, because (1) the Betty Ford funeral was rather compelling in light of the wonderful person, woman that she was & in light of the eulogies which also demonstrated the ability to reach beyond what is normally expected...quite a nonconformist, quite a feminist, and an altogether admirable human being. and (2) Hershey's dark chocolate sundae syrup is great to slosh on bland fat free ice cream...to have some ice cream with the dark chocolate, and (3) my husband & I are intrigued by the British hacking scandal & the ramifications (sorta reminds one of the Helen Mirren Prime Suspect series with the corruption in the Yard's management, etc..)

    But, yeah, lets see how this plays out. For future discussion: I'd bet-- a bit differently than yourself & BTD--that the ol' "top 2% tax restoration" issue is only going to get stronger as we move on down the road...it is not going away. In any event, we will have lots of time to trade theories & comments on that pervasive, real issue later. I'm looking forward to our discussions.


    Make your own ice cream (none / 0) (#184)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:16:45 PM EST
    you have control over flavor and fat. I also have a good recipe for dark choc syrup, again, control over what's in it, better for body and soul ;)

    If you have time to send it along (none / 0) (#185)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:12:47 PM EST
    the choolate recipe would be appreciated.  The aroma of dark chocolate gently stirring...stupefying. Thank you lots & lots.

    me too (none / 0) (#186)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 01:13:31 AM EST
    I'm looking forward to our discussions.

    i always learn from what you have to say here

    good to see you commenting more often


    Even the most reasonable GOP (none / 0) (#187)
    by Politalkix on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 06:22:37 AM EST
    Presidential candidate, Huntsman, swears by Paul Ryan economics. Added to what Christinep wrote, you will understand how the GOP and not the President you should be worried about.

    Bill (none / 0) (#100)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:05:36 PM EST
    Offered up welfare.  That was different?

    Baghdad Bob! (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:08:04 PM EST
    I thought you were dead!

    Yeah, actually, it was (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:48:46 AM EST
    And it's worked not that badly, although it needs a lot of improvement, IMO.  Even lefties like me were getting pretty uncomfortable about the fact that Welfare dependency was being passed on from generation to generation, men were being driven out of households (or given a great excuse to take off, if you like) and working was actually penalized.

    You wouldn't have wanted to maintain that system, would you?

    Hitting the elderly poor, who have no recourse for improving their income themselves, is utterly and absolutely unconscionable, cruel, unspeakable.

    But perhaps your social circle doesn't include any old ladies who earned their living for 50 years or more doing laundry and are living on survivor's SS benefits.


    News flash: (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:56:18 AM EST
    This blog is not filled to the brim with unabashed Bill Clinton protectors. For the record, I DID NOT vote for Clinton in '96, in large part because of his policies on "welfare reform."

    Kinda blows your latest straw man theory, huh? Bummer and a half, boy genius. Try again.


    Scusi (none / 0) (#34)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:14:27 PM EST
    "hue & cry" should read "hew & cry" ...anyway, lots of pushback.

    You were right the first time (none / 0) (#59)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:17:26 PM EST
     - it's "hue," meaning a cry of alarm or protest; "hew" means to make or shape as if with an axe.

    Okay...so, snarking here just a little, maybe both work in the context in which you used the word.


    what is ur basis (none / 0) (#36)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:19:50 PM EST
    For claiming Obama made no such offer? augury?
     Obama makes me feel like augering these days, in the form of trepanning

    No one knows the insides of negotiations (none / 0) (#84)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:22:09 PM EST
    like these. It really is somewhat foolhardy to contend otherwise. (And, for me, the last word that I would touch is the word "augur" "augury" since the last time that I used the word was in the 1970s when--I confess--I misused it, as I was politely informed by a U.S. Court of Appeals Judge for whom I worked. As they say, funny that you should mention it. Really.)

    If one is susceptible to class warfare (none / 0) (#2)
    by BTAL on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 05:56:44 PM EST
    Generational warfare is not a huge leap.

    Don't understand your comment (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by observed on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:12:06 AM EST
    We've had class warfare for 30 years now, with the rich against everyone else. Call a spade a spade.
    BTW, I just read that the top 400 families in the US are worth more than then next 150 million people, total. Does that bother you? Unless you live in Versailles, it should. Actually, it should ESPECIALLY bother you if you are one of the ultra rich. This situation is not stable.

    We should raise the age (none / 0) (#22)
    by seabe on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:49:11 PM EST
    Maybe to 90; some people could still use it, and we'd get rid of the horrible debt this program is bring to our country. People live too long these days anyway. Medicare won't be "ended as we know it" either, so Politifact won't be on your case.

    Hell, let's make everyone 62 or older (none / 0) (#26)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:55:48 PM EST
    take jobs in mines without machines or safety, or working high steel. Heck, let those who don't wanna do that government employees on the impact areas of military reservations.

    Save on costs? Oh hell yeah! I'm down...


    Well, maybe this is the grand plan (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:08:25 PM EST
    to solve the agriculture crisis created by those insane anti-immigrant laws that keep popping up. Make the boomers work in the fields picking fruits and vegetables.

    Most of those over 50 who have lost their jobs will never find another job anyway. So, they might as well do something useful, no? The fact that farm workers are paid a pittance and have no health care should make this idea even more attractive to the powers that be.

    And, since it seems a safe bet that the arduous physical labor will result in many deaths before boomers hit the Medicare eligible age, well, my gosh, the savings.


    On the upside (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:27:03 PM EST
    if we can munch a bit of what we pick in the fields, we oldsters could benefit from all that fiber in fruits and vegetables.

    And for protein, well, that's where the catfood comes into the culinary picture. . . .


    Ah, Towanda, (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:30:56 PM EST
    always look on the bright side of life, as those clever boys from Monty Python advised.

    A little Monty Python (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:36:01 PM EST
    I needed that (none / 0) (#50)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 07:59:48 PM EST
    and am happy to see that you also are not going gently into the good night ahead of us, if Obama and his ilk have their way.  When will they learn that if we're not laughing with them, we're laughing at them?  And that is not good news for them.

    McCain will pay you $20 an hr (none / 0) (#121)
    by suzieg on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:39:46 AM EST
    to do so!

    Too bad that Obama won't do so (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Towanda on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:20:06 AM EST
    with a New Deal plan to hire workers to collect the food needed to feed the poor, huh?

    DLC Blue Dog Third Neo Lib 0-$ell-0ut is (none / 0) (#55)
    by seabos84 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:11:38 PM EST
    doing us a favor ...

    anything which will drive a political stake through the greedy "hearts" of these f'king sell outs is ... good!

    I spent the 70's, my teen years, on welfare. I voted FOR these "moderate" Dems cuz I thought they were gonna make stuff work better, then b.s. like Prop 13 and the Raygun thieves could have their lies shoved back down the dark holes those lies came from -

    we got lots of ivy'd up our sourcing and ... lots and lots of clintonistas making way more money than I've EVER made, for decades, selling me out, for decades - death by a thousand cuts style.

    despicable lying scum.

    at least with the fascists everything is above board and honest - they're straight up lying thieves. while they constantly amaze me, as I'd never think of what they do to screw over tens of millions, when I reflect that they're lying thieves, at least what they do "makes sense" ...!


    Obama (none / 0) (#57)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:15:30 PM EST
    couldn't care less.

    He knows that these are empty threats.

    When the next election rolls around and the Republicans have nominated someone who can be portrayed as the second coming of Genghis Kahn, the same flock that flocked in 2008 will re-flock.

    I like Gen.ghis' foreign policy (5.00 / 5) (#63)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:32:43 PM EST
    but domestic? similar to Obama's "Make them all serfs," isn't it?

    I don't know why I should vote FOR Obama. I give less than a damn about a supreme court that continues to give corporations the vote.

    His policies make W seem centrist.


    Who knows if it will make a diff but (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 10:45:35 AM EST
    Many have had it.  I don't vote for conservatives.  I don't stay home.  I just don't vote on a particular race.

    Same here (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 11:39:11 AM EST
    I don't vote for politicians who are willing to cut SS, Medicare and Medicaid. Since that will be the goal of both presidential candidates, won't vote for either.

    True story (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 08:45:22 PM EST
    please try to stay on topic (none / 0) (#92)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:43:51 PM EST
    and use open threads for other topics

    Sorry; since you deleted (none / 0) (#113)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:33:41 PM EST
    jeffinalabama's and my exchange about job possibilities for my fellow boomer, you may want to also delete more job ideas that arose from our exchange; see posts #52, #54, and #56.

    We have taken our jobs-for-jeff discussion to email now.


    at least Obama is finally trying (none / 0) (#94)
    by diogenes on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 09:51:04 PM EST
    YOU try to create a budget which is balanced.  Repealing the Bush tax cuts or taxing the rich further won't quite do it, especially since those on the left if anything want to enhance social benefits while taxing the rich.  
    Saying that the fact that tens of millions of boomers vote is the reason in and of itself to not consider a social policy change is cynical even for me.

    First, put an intelligent sentence together (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 10:11:17 PM EST
    Then get back to us, Mr. Einstein.

    Second, certainly it is wise man who thinks a giant segment of the population being effected negatively by a policy change is NO reason to question that change.

    Third, that you actually think the financial problem in this country is old folks getting their SS, or Medicare, or poor folks on Medicaid, with the trillions we waste on asshat billionaires and wars, well, you
     are profoundly intellectually disabled.  


    Two simple little factoids: (5.00 / 5) (#124)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:45:08 AM EST
    1. The top 400 make (or have ) more than the next 150 million combined.....Let that one sink in a little.

    2.One teeny weeny little act by our President, letting the Bush Tax cuts expire as the republican President who signed the bill intended:

    net increase in revenues for the decade= 3.7 trillion.
    Net result: No debt ceiling crisis, No debt crisis, and no Medicare/SS cuts.


    Oh yeah, "the deal," I forgot, sorry.


    3.7 trillion doesn't cut it... (none / 0) (#192)
    by diogenes on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 07:12:24 PM EST
    President Obama's fiscal 2011 budget will generate nearly $10 trillion in cumulative budget deficits over the next 10 years, $1.2 trillion more than the administration projected, and raise the federal debt to 90 percent of the nation's economic output by 2020, the Congressional Budget Office reported Thursday.
    In its 2011 budget, which the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB) released Feb. 1, the administration projected a 10-year deficit total of $8.53 trillion. After looking it over, CBO said in its final analysis, released Thursday, that the president's budget would generate a combined $9.75 trillion in deficits over the next decade.

    Sure, but (none / 0) (#194)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 10:24:22 PM EST
    the 3.7 Trillion is at top end of the proposals out there now. No one is talking about wiping out the deficit completely in a decade, but almost 4 trillion is a heck of a down payment, and it would be done with a minimum of suffering by those who have suffered plenty already.

    Eugene Robinson (none / 0) (#116)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:25:51 AM EST
    Gets every part of this right.


    The fact that I am frustrated with some dems in no way means I have lost track of who the bad guy is.

    I can't believe t hat with all that's happening more outrage is directed towards Obama and dems than the GOP.

    one of Robinson's ill written and (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:33:13 AM EST
    columns... did you actually read it, or just the first para, the one oh about 11, and the last?

    Bad assumptions ALWAYS lead to bad conclusions. Robinson gets A c- for that effort in logical construction at best. If he did that on one of my methodology midterms he'd not only fail, but I'd write more in criticism than he wrote in proposition.


    Traitors (5.00 / 6) (#127)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:54:05 AM EST
    just get a lot less respect than the legitimate enemy, you know what I'm saying?

    What's that famous quote from Malcom X? (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 12:59:13 AM EST
    "I'd rather deal with a wolf, because at least you know where he stands." Or something similar.

    Perhaps because OBama is the one arming the GOP? (5.00 / 4) (#147)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:10:25 AM EST
    OBama, since Day One, has highlighterd th eimportance of incorporating "ideas" from the party completely and deservedly discredited just three years ago.  Obama singelhandedly rebuilt a GOP that was smoldering in the ashes of its own arson.

    But he was oh so mature throughout.


    There is nothing wrong from a GOP (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Buckeye on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 09:41:40 AM EST
    standpoint with what they are doing.  They are fighting for what they believe in competently and courageously.  We do not agree with them, but they want to shrink government.  They know tax increases will not do that.  They also know how to use leverage (in this case the debt ceiling) to get what they want.  What they are doing does not bother me because they are fighting for what they believe in.

    OUR Team are supposed to be the one's (and campaigned as such) that fight for the social conditions of the elderly, poor, working class, children, sick, etc.  When these people turn their back on their constituencies, their word, and what they are supposed to be fighting for, it is more outrageous.  There is only one side fighting for what they believe in which is why our country is suffering right now.  We cannot believe you (an intelligent person) consistently fails to see this.


    Obama put Social Security on the table... (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by lambert on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:23:56 PM EST
    ... in IA, 2008, which was noticed by those who were paying attention.

    * * *
    I suppose the next move will be to try to get the Booomers to betray everybody else by increasing the hit the younger you get. No thanks.


    Isn't that about the time (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:29:25 PM EST
    WORM was coined?

    And Obama said he also wouldn't touch it (none / 0) (#182)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 03:04:24 PM EST
    That is the problem.  Obama says EVERYthing, and then wants credit for SOMEthing when in reality he stands for NOthing.

    Follow me closely, because it's simple (5.00 / 5) (#174)
    by lambert on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:27:43 PM EST
    1. We expect Rs to act like Rs.

    2. We don't expect Ds to act like Rs.

    3. Obama is acting like an R.


    * * *

    Well, some of us expected Obama to act like an R (FISA; bailouts; HAMP; executive power) but we were in the minority for a long time. Fortunately, that's changing. I can only hope it's changing in time.


    Sure, I'll go naked for another 2 years... (none / 0) (#169)
    by lambert on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:22:11 PM EST
    ... so Obama can fund his wars and throw another few trillion at the banksters. It's a sacrifice I'm happy to make. What could go wrong?

    NOTE And puh-leeze don't tell me I can buy a junk insurance policy on the health exchanges.

    Oh stop whining (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:44:39 PM EST
    Those evil Repubs want cuts that will kill 5 million early.  Obama only wants to kill off 3.5 million.  

    You need to realize it's in your self interest to vote for Obama if you want to be naked.  Your unwillingness to be pragmatic is ruining the chances for this modern Dem party (which seems to be attracting many former Bush voters).

    New Dem motto: If you save appropriately, you won't need the safety net.  

    BTW... I don't know if twig ever showed you the photos, but I'm over 85 pounds of produce from my front yard garden.


    85 pounds of produce... (none / 0) (#188)
    by lambert on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 08:00:08 AM EST
    Twig didn't, though maybe she's got the pictures queued up, but you can post them yourself -- call it a "Garden Brag." I'd like to hear about it.

    How many weeks or months of eating does 85 pounds translate into, and what was your acreage? The Soviet Union, another sclerotic and collapsing empire, more or less fed itself on garden plots, IIRC.

    * * *

    Actually, I did "save." That's what the payroll withholding I paid my whole life was for.


    Is this really a pink slip? (none / 0) (#189)
    by lambert on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 08:00:41 AM EST
    Or a verbal warning that doesn't go in Obama's file?

    Improved Medicare for All (none / 0) (#190)
    by Bob the Health Care Advocate on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 01:33:27 PM EST
    I just became aware of this website. I realize that the discussion is about the Medicare eligibility age, but I am wondering how many people under age 65 are concerned that they will need to go onto Medicare (by knowing the facts about Improved Medicare for All being dramatically better). I am definitely concerned. I am 62 years old. One person (Romberry  7/11/2011) in the discussion made a negative comment about the ACA (Affordable Care Act of 2010). That's appropriate! Romberry also referred to the reality that lowering the age of Medicare would be better than raising the age of Medicare. In fact Romberry indicated that lowing the age of Medicare to zero would be the smartest step. That is also appropriate!

    Speaking of these topics, ...
    Side-by-side comparisons to Improved Medicare for All are available ...
    ACA compared to Improved Medicare for All
    Original Medicare compared to Improved Medicare for All

    Note that at the second link we need to add the topic of "accepts (Medicare) assignments". The side-by-side comparison will look even more in favor of Improved Medicare for All.

    It is time for us to establish the best health-care-for-all system in the world so that Medicare will be a major contribution to jobs and health care ... helping Americans and America.

    Bob the Health and Health Care Advocate

    WH confirms Obama floated idea of going to 67 for (none / 0) (#193)
    by jawbone on Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 09:44:36 PM EST
    Medicare beginning age.

    From Think Progress Health:

    REPORTER: In the spirit of rebutting this idea that it has all been smoke and mirrors, is the President willing to raise the retirement age for Medicare and Social Security? [...]

    CARNEY: A lot of the reporting about what has been under consideration has been accurate. And I would simply say for those of you, all of you, who are familiar with these issues what hard choices are to judge for yourselves whether the kinds of things that we have been able to consider do not constitute significant, significant, demonstrations of a willingness to compromise and I think the answer is they absolutely do.

    Guess who is proposing this as well? You're probably right.

    Short piece, just go read for the answer.