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Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:33:24 PM EST
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It's day 3 of deliberations in the retrial of former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich.

I've been entrenched in motions writing, and hope to be back here soon.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Wisconsin protests exploding again (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:54:53 PM EST
    with thousands marching around the Capitol (and some allowed inside, after getting through the only couple of doors not locked down for good in previous protests, and after they get through airport-style security) as the idealogue gov and GOP legislators do the last-minute trick of putting the ban on public employees' collective bargaining rights into the biennial budget bill.  

    The nasties are doing so with the never-before-used-on-a-budget-bill tactic of an "extraordinary session" to ram this through again at the end, again without provision for public response (that's what caused the conflagration before -- subversion of the hallowed hearing process).  The ban on collective bargaining was not in the budget bill during the months of hearings on it so could not come up then.

    And this ploy -- in re this being a legal blog -- was announced just yesterday along with the GOP legislators ultimatum to the state Supreme Court to decide in 24 hours on the case before the justices about the illegality of the previous process attempted to ban collective bargaining rights . . . or, if the state high court did not rush to judgment, then the GOP just would slam the provision into the budget and pass it today.

    Thuggish threats by legislative leaders toward the state high court.  Nice, huh?  

    And the larger tactic of doing some d*mn thing like this every day is back, to keep the sane folk trying to play catch-up at all times.  Such folk there have been sending the coverage for thelast week of the tactic of the GOP funding "fake Dems" as candidates in the coming recall elections to buy time and more delays, forcing primaries first that will cost the state half a million bucks in those districts.  And, of course, forcing the real Dem candidates to spend a lot of their funds in fighting outright lies in unnecessary primaries.

    The evidence, the GOP memos found on this (and admitted by the GOP with pride) points to this tactic being tried in many states in the next elections elsewhere.  Just forewarning that, again as before, what happens in Wisconsin is not going to stay in Wisconsin.  

    'Appreciate the update, towanda (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:09:51 PM EST
    But, the Wisconsin situation boggles the mind. Is the thinking among the WiscRepubs so skewed that they will force a slight variation of a tactic that boomeranged badly before and expect a different result? My first response is "It makes no sense to rush & incur even more wrath from the voters because the maneuver looks stupid." Then, I remembered that the Ryan folk & the national Repubs keep digging that hole deeper on Medicare, etc. rather than finding a colorable way out. Maybe they think that in this version of digging a hole for themselves up there, they'll find the golden ring at the bottom? (From down here, tho, it sure looks mean...and stupid.)

    Parent
    The state Supremes just caved (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:46:20 PM EST
    not only on the procedural point of the case, the once-sacrosanct open meeting law of the state -- but, worse, also to the legislative ultimatum for the court to act today or else.

    Details are coming out, so I'm still reading up on this.  Basically, the disaster that was predicted if the right-wing control of the court continued in spring elections, as did occur owing to the incredibly corrupt GOP county clerk's tactics.  The state ethics board could not cope with that as well as the intensity of need to certify hundreds of thousands of petitions for the nine recall elections at once, too.

    In sum, the Koch Bros.-funded full assault on all three branches of government, and on the elective process and other legal processes, and all at once (again, a crucial strategy) has worked.  Even a state known for good practices cannot cope when all of the branches and agencies in place to maintain a balance are all thrown off balance at once.

    That's the strategy to watch for in other states -- as this was strategized and funded from out of state, as the coverage has shown.  The state was picked because (last time being an aberration) of its vulnerability as the most purple state and for symbolic purposes.  That his can happen in Wisconsin is being touted as evidence that it now can be tried, and accomplished, almost anywhere.


    Parent

    The WI Supreme Court decision seems to say that (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jawbone on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:54:37 PM EST
    the way legislation is passed does not matter? That's essentially what they ruled, if I understand the ruling.  Yes, the open meeting law requirements were not met, but, hey, they got the number of votes they needed. By hook or by crook. Isn't hat how power works?

    Doesn't that open the door to all sorts of legislative shenanigans? Quorum? Meh, who needs a quorum? Notification of votes? Why? Let the leadership just get a group together and pass things. Things go more smoothly without the opposition present, after all.  Oh, and why would the oppostition need to be told that there is a session planned? If they can't keep an eye on what's going on, too bad for them. Neener, neener. Losers,losers.

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    I know nothing of WI law (none / 0) (#58)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:07:32 PM EST
    but it seems to me that a legislature is free to abrogate a rule that purports to bind it by passing legislation inconsistent with that rule.

    Parent
    I do know the Wisconsin law (none / 0) (#79)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:27:05 PM EST
    as it has been all over media in the Midwest with links, as have been the briefs in this case for fascinating reading.

    The law was passed by the legislature to be binding on the legislature, very specifically, unless each house of the legislature writes rules allowing exceptions.  They have done so.

    However, see any of the reporting on this case, as the question is whether rules of either body apply to a joint committee, as the legislature did not take care -- for decades now -- to bring joint committees of both houses under the exceptions.

    This ruling is simply appalling and entirely political, but that's the way that state's hgih court has been heading for years now, election by election by election -- including, in recent elections of justices, campaigns that have led to censure after censure after centure.

    Parent

    If I understand the legal phrase (none / 0) (#82)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:44:47 PM EST
    correctly, it seems to me that the state high court has ruled the opposite of rulings that "fruit from the poisoned tree" is poisoned, too.

    Even the conservatives on the court agree that the requirements of the law in question, the open meting law, were not met.  Yet they, the majority, are saying that procedure does not matter in passing law -- and that courts have no jurisdiction in determining whther laws have been passed legally.

    Then I would like to know what the h*ll we have high courts for, huh?  They're not traffic courts or divorce courts.  They're courts that determine whether the state constitution as been followed -- and the state's open meeting law was very specifically derived from a clause in the state constitution.

    Parent

    Exactly. And yes, a friend (none / 0) (#83)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:48:44 PM EST
    who works in a large state agency there, sending me some of the info, comments that this unleashes chaos for all state, municipal, and more agencies -- school boards, too, apparently among those most often sued about violations of this law.

    I just went (was sent) to the state AG's website, and he's going to have to take it down fast, as his guidelines for all public agencies and employees in the state are seriously out of line with this ruling today from the state high court.

    Parent

    Here's a series of the AG's quotes (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Towanda on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 12:14:25 AM EST
    over the years about the open meeting law, nicely excerpted on a legal blog -- with the closing comment on point from a Madison newspaper lately:

    That was then this is now: Open Meetings Edition
    2007

    "Access to open meetings and public records is an essential component of effective citizen oversight of the workings of our democratic government. Raising awareness, sharing information, and promoting compliance with open meetings and public records law is part of the ongoing mission of the Department of Justice." - J.B. Van Hollen, [Capital Times, September 12, 2007]

    2009

    "As the state's chief law enforcement officer, I am deeply committed to promoting compliance with Wisconsin's open meetings and public records laws." - J.B. Van Hollen, [Capital Times, March 16, 2009]

    2010

    "Nothing captures the essence of American democracy better than 'government of the people, by the people, for the people,' and a citizen's access to public records and meetings of governmental bodies is a vital aspect of this principle. That is why, as your attorney general, I am deeply committed to promoting understanding of, and compliance with, Wisconsin's open meetings and public records laws. Educating the public and public employees on these laws is one of the most important parts of that goal." - J.B. Van Hollen, [Capital Times, August 29, 2010]

    2011

    "Even by the low standard that Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen sets for himself when representing the interests of the people of Wisconsin, his move to try to eviscerate the state's open meetings law is unacceptable...If Van Hollen gets his way, Wisconsin's open meetings law would ultimately be rendered meaningless -- as would the promise of open and honest governance that the legislators of the 1970s outlined and embraced for themselves and for all branches and units of government in Wisconsin. Van Hollen may not be the ablest lawyer. But he is no fool. He knows that he is attacking the underpinnings of the open meetings law." - Capital Times Editorial, [Capital Times, May 31, 2011]



    Parent
    I hadn;t realized this ruling covers ALL public (none / 0) (#160)
    by jawbone on Fri Jun 17, 2011 at 06:45:50 PM EST
    entity meetings. Wow!

    Maybe there'a line about this is a singular case, and like Bush vs. Gore it should not serve as a precedent for any other public meeting situations?

    Parent

    Oh, towanda, it is more & more sickening (none / 0) (#47)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:11:58 PM EST
    You are on target that the Koch $$ can buy a lot, but.... And, here is where we have to be optimistic for 2012. Historically, in many places in this country, the richest candidate doesn't win WHEN the opposition organizes, organizes, and organizes get-out-the-vote. Shoeleather isn't trite; it works time & again.

    IMO, Wisconsin should be one of the biggest focus states for Democrats for 2012. Organization plus $$$. (Koch can only spend so much in a state.) Will Feingold be one of the leaders in that charge?

    You are so right about Ed Schulz. He did us all proud. The man grabbed on & never let go of this issue...one of the most central (if not the most central) issues in the nation about the future of working men and women.

    Damn it. For now.  But, you are going to prevail; because Wisconsin really has no choice.

    Parent

    There is no cause for optimism (none / 0) (#94)
    by Towanda on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 02:17:37 AM EST
    as the possibility of good governance is gone, really it is, the more I read about how skillfully this all has been orchestrated.

    I previously had estimated that it would take about a decade to recover Wisconsin, with the lag time in legislative and gubernatorial terms and elections and the like -- factoring in what this legislature is doing in redistricting the state now, too.  (A story today also shows how the plan locks in a crucial seat in Congress, the northern third of Wisconsin long held by Obey, that went to a Republican last year.  It will be his for life.)

    That estimate had been based on the high court retaining some integrity, despite the also carefully orchestrated conservative takeover, justice by justice, for several years now.  The corruption in this spring's election was breathtaking, though -- a bad sign. . . .

    And today's ruling reveals just how hopeless is the situation, with no checks and balances among the three branches of government there anymore.  Recovering Wisconsin may take two decades now, at a minimum.  Again, watch the reports on the redistricting to come -- a couple of us here kept talking about how crucial that was in 2010 elections, but I saw little such talk elsewhere -- and I suspect that you will see what I see.

    So sad.  The economy and its impact in that state was sufficient reason to see it going red in 2012, but with the corrupted election process now in place, the new and very restrictive voter ID law, and other factors, the state is a lock for the Republicans.  Look elsewhere for re-election hopes for Obama.

    Parent

    Ugh... (none / 0) (#9)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:50:47 PM EST
    Thanks for keeping us posted.  A couple of thoughts come to mind.

    1.  What is the buzz right now regarding recall efforts?
    2. You are so right:
    Just forewarning that, again as before, what happens in Wisconsin is not going to stay in Wisconsin.  

    You know, it might really be the pitchforks -- and not the hyperbole re pitchforms -- that comes out.  Do you think it would be covered by the media?  Maybe it's time to have protests at, for example, the NYTimes building.  Think that would get coverage?

    Parent

    Re recall elections: Nine next month (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Towanda on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 12:20:40 AM EST
    have been certified.  The leading paper in the state reported, as I recall, only four throughout the state's history before.

    The six recall elections on Republican state legislators are July 12.

    The three recall elections on Democratic state legislators are July 19.

    The coverage in the last week is worth looking up; look for a column by a reporter named Dan Bice, who was sent an insider memo on the national Republican Party's plan for the Wisconsin recall elections -- running "fake Democrats" to force primaries to give the incumbent Republicans a delay of something like a month for more campaigning, and also giving the national party more time to keep pouring funds into the Republican campaigns in the state.

    The top targeted Republican, a state Senator Darling from the Milwaukee suburbs who cochairs the most powerful legislative committee, the fiscal committee, already has received something like half a million bucks from the national party.

    Based on what happened in the spring election for the state Supreme Court, prospects are dim for the Democrats against corruption in elections there.

    Parent

    Correction: Eight in the state's history (none / 0) (#95)
    by Towanda on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 02:26:16 AM EST
    -- eight recall elections, that is, but it looks like four have resulted in returning the incumbents to office again.

    As noted above, with the new voter ID law to take partial effect by next month's recall elections, and there is discussion of summer elections being very difficult to get out turnout for Dems there (both the new law and the summer season will cut student turnout 'way back in a state with one of the highest youth-vote turnouts in past), plus the outside funding pouring in for Republicans, it would seems that prospects are poor for Dem challengers in the recall elections.

    Looks like the Dems would have to take at least three of the six seats now held by Republicans to gain the majority in the state Senate.  And then, even with a majority to try to reverse the long slate of Republicans' new laws slammed through in recent months (national coverage has focused on only one or two), there would be challenges taken to this state high court, and those Republican challenges would be upheld by this state high court.

    Parent

    No. Ed Schultz was taken down (none / 0) (#37)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:47:28 PM EST
    and without him, there was not for weeks and would not have been national coverage at all last time.

    Parent
    Ed Schultz (none / 0) (#90)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 01:35:49 AM EST
    took himself down.  Sorry.  No sympathy from me.

    Parent
    Terrible news (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:56:34 PM EST


    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:10:36 PM EST
    Speaking of thugs.

    Parent
    Really pitiful, Jim (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Dadler on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:46:00 PM EST
    Of course, the problem is the country is unions trying to get average working people a little more money.  Of course, unions are nothing but thugs, even though THE FACTUAL HISTORY OF THE LABOR MOVEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY revolves around company thugs and the government beating up workers.

    Ignore history and highlight an anomaly produced by the worst class warfare being waged in this country since the gilded age.

    So many fools in this country willing to chew their own legs off.

    Ketchup?

    Parent

    Dadler, as I posted in the past on this subject (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:33:05 PM EST
    I support private unions but oppose government unions. (GU)

    And I think it has been proved that GU's merely collect money, pass it to the politicians who return part of it to the GU.

    That's wrong.

    Parent

    Swatting a cell phone ... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:59:24 PM EST
    ... away from your face makes you a "thug"?!?

    You wouldn't last 3 seconds here in Jersey, Jim.

    BTW - That same video is the best you can come up with?

    Pretty sad ...

    Parent

    Oh, I can show some other nasties from the left (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:28:15 PM EST
    Link

    Madison -- A 26-year-old woman was charged Thursday with two felony counts and two misdemeanor counts accusing her of making email threats against Wisconsin lawmakers during the height of the battle over Gov. Scott Walker's budget-repair bill.

    And the death threats keep on coming.

    The lynching of Clarence Thomas.

    And we wouldn't to leave Palin out.

    "You know what, man? I am going to literally -- if she gets elected president, I am going to hang out on the grassy knoll all the time, just loaded and ready -- because you know what? It's for my country. It's for my country. If I got to sacrifice myself, it's for my country."

    Link

    And I need only to go here to find Donald doing his usual nasty remark and you telling me that people in NJ think it is okay to knock cell phones away.

    Oh. Really?

    You folks up there must have interesting social lives.

    ;-)

    I made this point a few weeks back and will again. Both sides have their share of nuts. It profits no one for each side to stand up and point fingers.


    Parent

    Read it slooooooowly, Jim (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:04:19 AM EST
    And I need only to go here to find Donald doing his usual nasty remark and you telling me that people in NJ think it is okay to knock cell phones away.

    Really?  You wanna point to the place where I said that?!?  My point was it's silly to call it "thuggery" - and it is.  Of course, maybe you former naval aviators (oh, sorry - guys who were "in" naval aviation - heh) are just very sensitive.

    Heh.

    BTW - A couple examples of nasty threats?  You want me to post a couple dozen examples of right-wingers actually using violence when they're upset?

    Funny stuff.

    Parent

    Post away whatever you want, Yman (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:50:54 AM EST
    You have my permission. ;-)

    And I will come back with similar from the Left.

    And to answer this.

    Really?  You wanna point to the place where I said that?!?  

    Swatting a cell phone ... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:59:24 PM CST
    ... away from your face makes you a "thug"?!?
    You wouldn't last 3 seconds here in Jersey, Jim.

    That clearly says you consider knocking cell phones away to be normal behavior.

    Wow.

    And yes, I was in Naval Aviation. And we focused our anger on enemies of the country, not SC Justices and ex-VP candidates.

    Parent

    Okay, here's just a brief period ... (none / 0) (#123)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 11:54:15 AM EST
    ... with examples of right-wingers putting their violent rhetoric into action:

    -- July 2008: Jim David Adkisson - killing two churchgoers and wounding four others.

    -- October 2008: Daniel Cowart and Paul Schlesselman arrested in a plot to murder dozens of African-Americans, culminating in the assassination of President Obama.

    -- December 2008: "Patriot" movement radicals Bruce and Joshua Turnidge, who wanted "to attack the political infrastructure" -- kill two police officers with a bomb.

    -- December 2008: James Cummings, agitated by the election of Obama, building a "dirty bomb" in his basement.

    -- January 2009: Keith Luke - raping and wounding a black woman and killing her sister, then killing a homeless man before being captured by police as he is en route to a Jewish community center.

    -- February 2009: A Marine named Kody Brittingham is arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate President Obama. Brittingham also collected white-supremacist material.

    -- April 2009: Richard Poplawski, believing President Obama intended to take away the guns of white citizens like himself, kills 3 police officers.

    -- April 2009: Joshua Cartwright, similarly fearful of Obama's purported gun-grabbing plans, kills two deputies.

    -- May 2009: Scott Roeder walks into a church in Wichita, Kansas, and assassinates abortion provider Dr. George Tiller.

    -- June 2009: A Holocaust denier and right-wing tax protester James Von Brunn opens fire at the Holocaust Museum, killing a security guard.

    -- February 2010: Tax protester named Joseph Ray Stack flies an airplane into the building housing IRS offices in Austin, Texas.

    -- March 2010: Seven militiamen arrested for plotting to assassinate local police officers with the intent of sparking a new civil war.

    -- March 2010: A "sovereign citizen" from Georgia is arrested in Tennessee and charged with plotting the violent takeover of a local county courthouse.

    -- May 2010: A still-unidentified white man walks into a Jacksonville, Fla., mosque and sets it afire, simultaneously setting off a pipe bomb.

    -- May 2010: Two "sovereign citizens" named Jerry and Joe Kane gun down two police officers who pull them over for a traffic violation, and then wound two more officers in a shootout in which both of them are eventually killed.

    -- July 2010: Byron Williams - attempting to attack the offices of the Tides Foundation and the ACLU, shooutout with officers wounding two.

    -- September 2010: Justin Carl Moose arrested for plotting to blow up an abortion clinic.

    ... and that's just in the past couple of years.

    BTW - see if you can tell the difference between saying swatting a cell phone away from your face is not "thuggery", and saying it's "okay" or "normal behavior".

    It's not a difficult distinction.

    Parent

    heh (1.00 / 1) (#126)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 01:43:09 PM EST
    If you want to claim that swatting someone's cell phone away from their face is normal behavior, be my guest.

    BTW - I have noted that militia members are not part of the Right Wing Establishment engaged in politics. And there was no proven connection that Stack had any connection to the Right.

    Plus, you provide no links. So we have no way of knowing what connection, if any, there is. (After Stack I am suspicious.)

    I'll provide links.

    Re Gifford:

    Link

    Re Repub Convention:

    The most shocking events are described by Jim Hoft, who was on a bus that was attacked from above when a group of protesters dropped sand bags on to the top of the bus.

    Link

    And since you like to talk about how legislatures do business:

    Link

    And then people using knifes:

    MILWAUKEE - A congresswoman's son and three Democratic campaign workers were sentenced Wednesday to four to six months in jail for slashing tires outside a Bush-Cheney campaign office on Election Day 2004.

    Link

    And the real country hurting stuff:

    Celebrating the 29th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, the North Vietnamese general who led his forces to victory said Friday he was grateful to leaders of the U.S. anti-war movement, one of whom was presidential candidate John Kerry.

    Link

    And if you want to talk about real thugs, try this:

    Link

    Parent

    Google is your friend (none / 0) (#128)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 04:02:14 PM EST
    Hahahahah ... now you're just trying to be funny, right, Jim?

    A link to a DKos writer saying Giffords is "dead to me" is supposed to be an example of actual left-wing violence?  An uncorroborated opinion piece on Powerline (a winger blog) where sandbags were supposedly dropped on a bus and another bus was shaken, in which the author himself says he's not sure the story's right and he can't verify it?  An American Spectator piece whining about not being permitted to hand out press packets at a hearing?  Vandalizing tires?  A Newsmax link about Kerry protesting the Vietnam War?  These are closest you can come to the right-wing violence from just the past couple of years - killing cops, firebombing mosques, killing people for their being the wrong color or because you're mad about paying to much in taxes?  Plotting assassinations and making dirty bombs?  You have to go back 40 years before coming up with something more than slashed tires and anti-war speech?

    wow.

    The really sad part is, you're not even trying to be funny.

    The fact that you "have noted" that militia groups are not part of the "Right Wing Establishment engaged in politics" means nothing ... literally nothing.  Like an ugly cousin, you may want to deny that militia groups are part of the right wing, but they're there sitting at the table every Thanksgiving - ask any of the wingers who defended them during their prime in the 90s.  Helen Chenoweth (R.- Idaho) was a hee-YOOOOGE fan and defender of the militias.  Same for Liddy and Beck.  and they all push the conservative agenda - guns right, anti-government, anti-taxes, "states rights", anti-socialist (heh), etc., etc., etc.  Funny how there's no militia groups pushing for abortion rights, a public option, getting-out-of-Afghanistan/Iraq, environmental regulations, etc.

    BTW - Here's links to real news sources, as opposed to Youtube videos, winger blog entries and WND.

    Adkisson.

    Cowart and Schlesselmann

    Turnidge father son gun nuts

    James Cummings, Obama hater, making dirty bomb

    James Luke, supremacist winger

    Kody Brittingham, another winger plotting an assassination.

    Poplawski, gun-nut, Obama-hater, cop killer.

    Joshua Cartwright, another Obama-hating, gun-nut, cop-killer

    Scott Roder, anti-abortion, militia, anti-govt., "Sovereign Man"

    James Von Brunn birther, holocaust denier, Obama-hater, general winger

    Joseph Stack, tax protester, flies plane into IRS building

    Seven "Christian militia" members arrested in plot to attack government.

    Pipe bombing of Jacksonville mosque

    BTW -

    If you want to claim that swatting someone's cell phone away from their face is normal behavior, be my guest.

    Do you really think such childish lies are not transparent, Jim?

    Parent

    I see that you can't bother to use (2.00 / 0) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 05:29:23 PM EST
    the link. The Repub convention attack was documented quite well.

    What I tried to do was ignore the random violence by individuals who have no real connection to the Left wing establishment and show the thuggish actions as a part of a political action.

    Thus we get Bill Ayers as a terrorist and John Kerry as a fellow traveler and the union thug knocking away the cell phone being used to record his actions during the demonstration as well as the Code Pink people in the Lynch Thomas (and other despicable acts.) And I didn't include the identified Left winger who shot Gifford because I didn't see any attachment to any establishment Left wing group. KOS, of course, is.

    That's important.

    Of course you can't be bothered with things like that because it doesn't fit your world view of anyone disagreeing with you being just seconds away from attacking you. So you attack individuals whereas I look for groups. The former are troublesome and nasty. The latter are deadly.

    And, as usual, you couldn't resist breaking out the lie word. Oh well, it does so prove my point.

    You said what you said. You are who you are.

    Have a nice night.

    Parent

    When you continue to mischaracterize ... (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 07:13:32 PM EST
    ... my words, even after a careful and entirely accurate explanation of their meaning, you're lying.

    BTW - I was just seeing if you could make good on your promise to provide an example of actual violence left-wing violence for each example of right-wing violence I provided.  You couldn't, of course, hence your lame attempt to do your best, and the laughable explanation.

    Pretty sad, really.

    Parent

    Speaking of mischaracterizing (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 06:23:25 AM EST
    Here's what I wrote and you wrote:

    Post away whatever you want, Yman (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 09:50:54 AM CST
    You have my permission. ;-)
    And I will come back with similar from the Left.

    And to answer this.

    Really?  You wanna point to the place where I said that?!?  
    Swatting a cell phone ... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:59:24 PM CST
    ... away from your face makes you a "thug"?!?
    You wouldn't last 3 seconds here in Jersey, Jim.
    That clearly says you consider knocking cell phones away to be normal behavior.

    So using your guidelines, that makes you a liar.

    Parent

    No, it doesn't Jim (none / 0) (#140)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 06:51:18 AM EST
    What you posted wasn't remotely similar.

    But nice try.

    Parent

    See my Humpty Dumpty quote (none / 0) (#147)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 10:58:24 AM EST
    ;-)

    Parent
    Heh - using a fairy tale ... (none / 0) (#152)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 12:07:49 PM EST
    ... to defend a fairytale.  Fairytales of imaginary sandbag attacks on buses, fairytales of attacks on boy/cub scouts from winger blogs you push yourself ...

    The best part is, you're not trying to be funny.

    Parent

    You want to call (none / 0) (#138)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 06:39:55 AM EST
    militias part of the Right Wing Establishment when they are not anymore than the Communist party was/is part of the Left Wing Establishment.

    And you buy into the argument that the threats in WI came from sick individuals while ignoring that some of your list is of individuals also obviously past the center line.

    Yet I didn't bother to use Gifford's attacker although he has been shown to be of the Left persuasion.

    Too bad you can't argue ideas and politics.

    My last word on your definition of words.

    `But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

    `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

    `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

    `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

    "Through the Looking Glass," Lewis Carroll.

    The more things change the more they remain the same.

    Have a nice day.

    Parent

    No, Loughner has not ... (none / 0) (#141)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 06:58:33 AM EST
    ... been shown to be "of the left persuasion", which is precisely why you didn't include a link to anything demonstrating he was.  His best friend said of Loughner, He did not watch TV. He disliked the news. He didn't listen to political radio. He didn't take sides. He wasn't on the left. He wasn't on the right." (Fox News - just for you).  Although he was a devotee of David Wynn Miller, right-wing conspiracy "grammar control" theorist and "Sovereign Citizen".

    So transparent.

    Parent

    That's not what those he went to school with said. (none / 0) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 11:08:02 AM EST


    Parent
    No - that's not what ONE person ... (none / 0) (#151)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 12:07:08 PM EST
    ... he went to school with said - which is precisely why you provided no links.  Of course, his best friend, who knew him better than a mere classmate (who may or may not even know the difference between liberal and conservative), says he was apolitical.

    Classic.

    Parent

    The classic thing is this (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 03:27:55 PM EST
    You want to use the militia and the occasional nut job. As I noted, they have no more connection to the establishment political Right than the Left has to the Communist party.

    Show me some connection to the actual Right. Not some guy in Knoxville who decides to shoot up a church because he has become deranged.

    Of course you can't do that for the same reason that no one could show Tea Party people saying nasty things about the Congress people on their infamous walk  last year. It didn't happen.

    Now that was a classic.

    In the meantime, here is a triple dipper:

    During the 2000 election, "The Late Show with Craig Kilborn" showed footage of George Bush while the words "Snipers Wanted" was superimposed.

    Actor Alec Baldwin appeared on "Late Night With Conan O'Brien" and called for Republican Congressman Henry Hyde and his family to be murdered. Baldwin said: "I'm thinking to myself if we were in other countries, we would all, right now, all of us together ... would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! Wait! ... Shut up! No shut up! I'm not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death, and we would go to their homes and we'd kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families."

    Al Franken told Matt Lauer on NBC's "Today" show that Karl Rove and Lewis Libby should be "executed." The comment drew a laugh from Lauer. Franken's comments drew no criticism from the major media, including NBC News

    Link

    But, since you seem to be fixated on violence:

    He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room of the St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was waiting to be treated for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face that he suffered in the attack. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack started.

    Link


    Parent

    Hahahahahahaha ... (none / 0) (#156)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 05:08:39 PM EST
    Actors and comedians making jokes on comedy shows is your answer, Jim?!?

    Oh .... my ..... G0d ...... I wish you could see the tears of laughter rolling down my face .... no joke.

    BTW - The one example of actual/arguable "violence" you do show is also pretty sad.  Have you seen the actual video?  First of all, it's not at all clear as to who started the altercation and who (if anyone) was assaulted.  Watch the raw video.  When it begins, an SEIU member is already on the ground.  Gladney is standing over him about 2 ft. to his right.  Another SEIU guys yells "Get off him!" and Gaffney gets pulled to the ground for 2 seconds until he gets back on his feet.  The SEIU guys say Gaffney attacked the first guy on the ground.  Gaffney says he was attacked.  He said-they said, if you will.

    Now is where the story gets interesting.

    Gaffney, who was briefly pulled to the ground, is quickly up and appears fine.  He's walking and moving entirely normally, as he goes over to the police officer and walks around.  But by the time he holds a news conference outside the hospital the next day, he's in a wheelchair.  His "attorney" (actually David Brown, who hired him to sell Tea Party paraphenalia for the "Political Mint", a company owned by Brown and his sister.  Brown quickly started making the rounds of the TV shows, like Fox News and Lou Dobbs, where Gaffney and Brown claimed he was assaulted by 4 people, kicking him in the head and knees after being knocked to the ground.  (Wow - fox must do a great job with makeup, huh?)  He also told the STL Dispatch that Gaffney was punched in the face and kicked in the head and back.

    Of course, the actual video shows no such thing.  Gladney jumps to his feet very quickly and is moving normally with not a mark on his face, or anywhere else.  Lucky guy, considering he says he was punched in the face and kicked in the head, among other things.

    Heh.

    Of course, the SEIU "thugs" (and the video) deny Gladney's allegations, and they haven't been convicted of anything.  Gee, I wonder how that big civil suit that David brown promised is going?  I'll give you a hint ...

    ... it's not.

    So an unsubstantiated allegation of "union thuggery" complete with wheelchair video (or as we refer to it in the real world - a scuffle with exaggerated injuries and no fault established) is supposed to be "similar" to verified, documented cases of right-wing violence, including murder, cop killing, firebombing, and assassination plots.

    C'mon, Jim .... you just make it too easy.

    BTW - You really should keep up with the news, Jim.  There are much more recent examples of fake union thuggery - after all, fake violence, hysterical whining and imaginary injuries are a winger's bread-and-butter.  

    Heh.

    Parent

    BTW - Also interesting (none / 0) (#157)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 05:28:35 PM EST
    Gladney initially said he was unemployed and without health insurance, hence the pleas for money by Bill Hennessy (the Tea Party organizer) to help Gladney pay his medical expenses at the news conference outside the hospital, complete with Gladney-in-wheelchair backdrop.

    David Brown, his lawyer/"friend"/boss now says he is unemployed but has insurance through his wife and that he's received $1,100 in just the first few days following the incident.  Gladney is, of course ...

    ... keeping the money.

    Parent

    yeah we know (none / 0) (#161)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 18, 2011 at 12:06:01 AM EST
    Everybody on the Right lies and everybody on the Left are saints.

    ROFLMAO

    Parent

    Seems like an exaggerration, .... (none / 0) (#162)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 18, 2011 at 04:27:41 PM EST
    ... but if you say so, Jim ...

    Parent
    BTW - Your Stack link does not work (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 05:58:11 PM EST
    This one does.

    Stack was not a Right Winger.

    Parent

    Heh - a winger blogger ... (none / 0) (#133)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 07:21:10 PM EST
    ... says Stack wasn't a winger.

    Funny.

    But, for the sake of argument, let's discount stack.  Now let's see you come up with 16 other examples of left-wingers engaging in actual violence in the past couple of years (firebombing, assassination plots, killing innocent people, killing police officers, dirty bombs).  If you want to go back further, we can always include Oklahoma City and a couple dozen other winger attacks.  To be clear, provide a link to a real news source, not some unverified accusation on a winger blog.

    I'll wait.

    Parent

    I see that you can't read (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 06:18:40 AM EST
    What I tried to do was ignore the random violence by individuals who have no real connection to the Left wing establishment and show the thuggish actions as a part of a political action.

    Thus we get Bill Ayers as a terrorist and John Kerry as a fellow traveler and the union thug knocking away the cell phone being used to record his actions during the demonstration as well as the Code Pink people in the Lynch Thomas (and other despicable acts.) And I didn't include the identified Left winger who shot Gifford because I didn't see any attachment to any establishment Left wing group. KOS, of course, is.

    Parent

    I can read fine, Jim (none / 0) (#139)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 06:50:11 AM EST
    What you can't do is what you said you would do, so you stretch to try to make something fit, even if it involves comparing tire slashing and fairy tales from winger blogs to real violence ... murder, firebombing, assassination ...

    Typical winger nonsense.

    Parent

    If the alleged attacks ... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 07:24:19 PM EST
    ... on the buses at the RNC were "well-documented", you should have no trouble posting a link to a news report, rather than an uncorroborated opinion piece on "Powerline" (a winger blog), whose own author admits he's unsure of the story and couldn't verify it.  But then again, ...

    ... you could just be making it up.

    Parent

    Nothing? (none / 0) (#142)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 07:43:06 AM EST
    Heh ...

    Parent
    BTW - Found a real news report (none / 0) (#145)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 10:49:40 AM EST
    ... re: the alleged bus/sandbag attack at the RNC.

    Turns out your story was BS - the story of "attempted murder" by dropping sandbags on top of a bus was really just a guy who dropped a sandbag onto the highway.  Also, not a single news story about a cub or boy scout bus being attacked.

    Gee .... I wonder why ...

    Seriously funny stuff ...

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#149)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 11:11:39 AM EST
    These guys are attorneys so you may want to be careful what you call them.

    I attended the convention and remember the terrorist acts that were carried out by anti-Republican protesters very well. They threw bricks through the windows of buses, sending elderly convention delegates to the hospital. They dropped bags of sand off highway overpasses onto vehicles below. Fortunately, no one was killed.



    Parent
    I'm an attorney, too, Jim (none / 0) (#150)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 11:59:14 AM EST
    ... and truth is a defense to libel.  Do me a favor, send them a link to my comments.  I'd love for them to file a complaint.

    You wingers and your funny threats ...

    Parent

    You have clients?? (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 03:13:14 PM EST
    I am impressed.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Good ... (none / 0) (#155)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 03:29:06 PM EST
    ... for you.

    Parent
    This is an open thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:01:36 PM EST
    So your complaint, as is your nasty personal attacks, is meaningless.

    I merely pointed out that both sides are engaged in activities that reasonable people should oppose.

    Too bad you can't join me.

    Parent

    Nasty nasty, eh?? (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 09:24:07 AM EST
    I have decided to not engage you in your nastiness.

    I don't have to.

    You expose yourself.

    Have a wonderful day and be as nasty as you can be.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Investigated and charged by a Dem (none / 0) (#81)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:38:29 PM EST
    DA, if you read the thread (the same DA who brought the case ruled by the state high court today).  And I've read earlier stories about that young woman that suggest -- hardly a surprise -- that she is not a nasty but a sadly, emotionally imbalanced person who ought to have gotten help before this.

    Parent
    I would agree that she needs help (none / 0) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 09:28:31 AM EST
    as do the people who want to lynch Clarence Thomas.

    As I wrote, both sides have their nut cases. Finger pointing and inflamed rhetoric only bring them to a boil.

    Parent

    Thus, wouldn't it be wise of you (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Towanda on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 09:56:54 AM EST
    to not react with, well, finger-pointing?

    Parent
    I agree (1.00 / 1) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:36:34 AM EST
    But you started it.

    Shall we issue each other a free finger pointing pass?

    Parent

    umm (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by CST on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:48:04 AM EST
    Towanda is talking about the actions of a legislative body that will actually affect many people's lives - rather than holding up an example of a deranged individual who is not going to influence anything really, and is not "representative" of anyone other than themself.

    I think it's fair to look at a legislative body and say "these are the actions of Republicans".  You can not use an unelected individual to say the same thing.

    Parent

    What Towanda said was: (none / 0) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 11:05:22 AM EST
    Thuggish threats by legislative leaders toward the state high court.  Nice, huh?

    And I gave you three examples, not just one, of people threatening when the cellphone incident wasn't considered sufficient.

    If you want to zap the Repubs, be my guest.

    BTW - All the legislature did was pass a bill, with a legal quorum. The Demos disagreed and sued.

    The Demos lost.

    Now, if we are going to have the rule of law then it is time to start working on legally changing the bill rather than continuing the demonstrations
    and tossing around inflamed rhetoric.

     

    Parent

    Again, if you cannot ascertain (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Towanda on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 11:13:37 AM EST
    the worrisome difference between an emotionally troubled individual's actions and those of an official body elected to uphold laws and represent the people then acting so disrespectfully toward another official body . . . no, that does not comport with indicators of your intelligence at other times.  So this time, you are just trying to waste my time or that of other commentators who, as you also can see, are onto you.

    Go find another sandbox.


    Parent

    Sorry, my sandbox is your sandbox (1.00 / 2) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 11:22:11 AM EST
    And my right to disagree is my right to disagree.

    And if you want to claim that the guy knocking the cell phone away, the people wanting to (among other violent threats to other officials) lynch Thomas and the (?) comedian threatening to kill Palin if she is elected are all mentally ill.....'

    well, be my guest.

    Parent

    No, I have said nothing at all (none / 0) (#135)
    by Towanda on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 07:25:11 PM EST
    about your story about some cellphone incident.

    You're mixed up about the commenters here whom you apparently just see as interchangeable toys in your sandbox.

    Parent

    Both sides have people ... (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:07:28 AM EST
    ... who go overboard with their rhetoric, but the loons on the right are considered mainstream.  And, of course, the wingers on the right form "militias" and other groups to make their threats a reality.

    Parent
    The loons on the Right are considered main stream? (none / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:40:45 AM EST
    Who knew???

    And no, militias are not part of the Right Wing Establishment engaged in political activities any more than the people shouting lynch Thomas are part of the Left Wing Establishment.

    Parent

    Everyone knew - except (none / 0) (#125)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 12:24:21 PM EST
    ... the right-wingers who (understandably) want to deny it.

    Were you around in the 90's?  That's why the wingers share an agenda with them (virulently anti-gun-control, anti-government, anti-taxes, imaginary "socialism" in Washington, adherence to right-wing conspiracies, etc.).  It's why right-wing radio hosts like G. Gordon Liddy and Glenn Beck defend them.  It's also why they had elected Republican officials defending them.  It's also why they've been making a comeback since Obama's election.

    Parent

    Ann Althouse (none / 0) (#64)
    by itscookin on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:37:42 PM EST
    has photos up, and the protest looks pretty mellow.

    Parent
    Update... (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:56:45 PM EST
    on The Big Man Clarence Clemmons.

    Appears he was on death's door, and though far from out of the woods yet, after two brains surgeries and what some are calling a miracle, he is starting to regain feeling in his left side after partial paralysis set in after the stroke.

    How we all hope he will blow again...cheat death like you've cheated breath on that sax all these years Big Man.

    Hope... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:00:15 PM EST
    WASHINGTON -- House Speaker John Boehner says the Obama administration clearly will be in violation of the War Powers Act by this weekend after failing to seek congressional consent for the U.S. military action in Libya.

    In a letter sent to the White House on Tuesday, the Ohio Republican says the upcoming weekend will mark 90 days from the first U.S. air strikes on Libya. Boehner asked President Barack Obama to explain - by Friday - what are the legal grounds for the operation.

    This is the kind of challenge one would have hoped would have sprung from the democratic left. But they are hopelessly comatose.

    So it comes from the republican right.

    Actually, (none / 0) (#43)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:01:49 PM EST
    Boehner wasn't calling for a military withdrawal.

    He was calling for Obama to seek consent from the congress as required by the War Powers Act.

    He was also calling for Obama to explain the legal grounds for this operation.

    This is a good thing, imo.

    I just wish the democrats had had the courage.

    Parent

    I don't care (5.00 / 4) (#98)
    by lentinel on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 06:02:30 AM EST
    about Boehner.

    Yeah, Obama "inherited" a bunch of messes.

    But Libya is HIS mess.
    And he is, in my opinion, deliberately avoiding a constitutional requirement in order to pursue his adopted goal of "regime change". He owes us a coherent explanation.

    As for the other messes:
    He SUPPORTED them when running.
    And he supports them now.
    He campaigned for Liebeman's reelection, you might recall - a red flag if ever there were.

    If Boehner or anybody else brings one of these wars to the foreground - and Obama's adoption of Bush's agenda - it is a good thing.

    Obama didn't just inherit something with which he disagrees.
    He agrees with these wars - and has said so. His disingenuous statement about his reason for escalating the war in Afghanistan was sickening, imo.

    I am no longer interested in republican vs democrat.
    Not when the dems are waving the flag and funneling our tax money to the wealthy, to Wall Street and to the military-industrial complex.

    If the wars can emerge from the shadows - the virtual blackout by the media - and can become an issue - it is a good thing imo.

    At this point, Obama's credibility is no better than Boehner's.
    He'll say anything.

    I want opposition to his continuation of the Bush agenda and ethics. If that opposition is fanned by the republican right instead of the democratic left, so be it.

    Parent

    We can leave John Boehner out of it, (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 09:03:27 AM EST
    but that doesn't change the fact that the War Powers Act, that Obama invoked to justify his decision to act in Libya, requires that the president seek approval from the Congress within 60 days to continue; that 60-day period expired on May 20, nearly a month ago.  

    Is this how it works now?  Presidents get what they want through nominal cooperation with the law, and then proceed to ignore its requirements?  And what is the Congress' role and responsibility here?   If Nancy Pelosi were still the Speaker of the House, do you suppose she should be - or would be - turning a blind eye to this serious lapse?  And would Republicans who believed she was right to press on this issue deserve to be reprimanded for breaking ranks and agreeing with her?

    You deride Boehner for putting party above country, but try as I might, I can't figure out how you're not doing exactly that; you're saying that because Boehner's a punk you don't trust who has cuckoo colleagues who all want to bring Obama down, that he has no right or responsibility to see that Obama complies with the law Obama himself invoked.

    And, I will save you some time and say that the threat of Republicans taking over does not obviate the requirements of the War Powers Act, and the longer it goes past that 60 days, we are establishing that presidents can ignore these things with no consequence.

    What's next?  Cheerleading for another war because this time, a Democrat is behind it?


    Parent

    Doggone it! (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:09:48 PM EST
    And furthermore #@!&*^!!.  I just made 12 pint jars of strawberry jam and one of them didn't seal because I screwed the band on crookedly.  I have never done this before, in 30+ years of canning.  I think senility is setting in.  Maybe I'm getting too old to do this type of thing any more.  (Sorry about the mini-rant.  We'll eat it, anyway- it goes in the fridge and gets used first.)

    I call those jars . . . (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:43:06 PM EST
    freezer jam!  ;) what I hate is when the quart of crushed tomatoes explodes it's bottom off . . .

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#10)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:52:45 PM EST
    Yes, I could freeze it, but we'll just eat it first.  I have part of a half-pint, non-sealed, from the little bit left over- there always seems to be a bit extra; but then son Zorba ate a lot of that on four pieces of toast.  The rest of it will be eaten by Mr. Zorba for breakfast tomorrow, I'm sure, so we'll just move on to the unsealed jar.  I've never had a jar of tomatoes blow out on me, though.  Be careful there, nycstray- you may have some unexpected IED's!   ;-)

    Parent
    For some reason, it's happened more (none / 0) (#16)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:29:58 PM EST
    than once and it's always the quarts. I have to wonder if something is up with the newer jars. May go on a hunt for some old ones. I just counted my tomato plants . . . . I'll be putting up massive amounts :P

    Parent
    I'm still using jars (none / 0) (#26)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:47:14 PM EST
    from 15-20+ years ago (of course, I use new lids and bands; you can re-use the bands, but I only do that if they are in pristine shape).  I do wonder if the new jars are thinner or something.  Heck, they've down-sized everything else so they can charge you the same for less and pretend the price hasn't gone up.  Hope your tomatoes all do well.  You can never have too many tomatoes!  Zucchini, now that's another story........   ;-)  

    Parent
    I don't plant zukes (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:59:09 PM EST
    I just pick them up at the FM when they have the young small ones. I did plant lemon squash this year though. I do have family to share with and one is a toddler who needs lots of fresh veggies ;)

    I counted today, 19 tomato varieties (I'm afraid to count actual plants!) I'm testing varieties and will seed save what works best. May save other varieties to share or plant when it looks like a hotter/longer summer may be in store for us. I can't believe I more than tripled my overall garden from last year. I think I must be nuts. Taking 2 class at the CC, just to add to the time crunch fun :D They end at the beginning of August, so shouldn't be too much of a burden on harvesting and putting food up, but then I also start 4 Fall classes that month. What was I thinking? Iirc, that's also crunch work time :P

    Parent

    Question for MT (none / 0) (#44)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:03:50 PM EST
    with your love of dogs, does mention of food and "blow out" in the same sentence make you gag just a little?

    Parent
    Do you mean when you have a sick dog? (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:49:02 PM EST
    Maybe a traveling dog?  One of my dogs must have really small eustachian tubes.  No matter how old she gets she still gets car sick but I can prepare now that I know.  When I first went to get her I had to drive about 60 miles home, she was 2 yrs old.  That was a blowout.  That was horrible.

    Parent
    Stop it! You're making me hungry! (none / 0) (#55)
    by jawbone on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:57:20 PM EST


    Parent
    How to face plant on tv (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:36:00 PM EST
    Don't tell Dalai Lama jokes to the Dalai Lama

    An anchor for the Australian iteration of "Today" apparently hadn't heard this piece of wisdom, so while he was interviewing the Dalai Lama, he dropped the "So, the Dalai Lama walks into a pizza shop and asks the guy to make him one with everything" joke.

    caught on video here...

    I can hardly believe that the... (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by desertswine on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:20:26 PM EST
    the Dalai Lama hasn't heard that old chestnut before; and the change part.

    A Buddhist monk, visiting New York City for the first time in twenty years, walked up to a hot dog vendor, handed him a twenty dollar bill, and said, "Make me one with everything."

    The vendor pocketed the money, and handed the Buddhist monk his hot dog. The monk, after waiting for a moment, asked for his change. The vendor looked at him and said, "Change comes from within." With a wistful smile, the monk walked away.



    Parent
    Tidbit from Greenwald: Someone on the Obama (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by jawbone on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:10:39 PM EST
    campaign may not be all that happy with Obama's new charm offensive toward Big Banksters and Big Bidness:

    UPDATE II:  The Huffington Post's Sam Stein obtained a memo from Obama's re-election campaign to the White House regarding one of Obama's top 2008 bundlers -- Ed Haddock, the CEO of for-profit Full Sail University -- who had "stopped being 'helpful' in 2009 and is currently being courted by former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney." The memo urges the White House to make him feel as though he has special access for his policy issues in order to induce financial support, generating this well-supported headline:

    Obama Campaign Advised White House Staff to Give Top Donor Sense of Access

    [Go to Greenwald for the actual photo and whole post.]

    That the White House would provide special access to a top donor is, of course, anything but surprising, though it helps answer the question I posed in the prior Update and is yet another prime example of that against which candidate Obama incessantly inveighed but which President Obama enthusiastically practices.

    Isn't that special?

    And, how does that you feel from here under the bus?

    So I was just minding my own business (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 09:00:23 AM EST
    this morning, reading around doing a little Rick Perry research and this pops up.  A sense of humor helps sometimes.  Lord knows if I didn't laugh right now I really would cry.

    So I've never promoted a website before (none / 0) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 03:40:08 PM EST
    but...AutoSlash.com appears to rock.

    When looking for a car rental, you punch in your dates and other info for the rental, and the site searches most of the major car rental co's and gives you the best deal.

    Big time saver.

    It gets better - if you book a car through the site, the website continues to search the car rental sites every day and automatically books you if a better deal shows up, and better deals seem like like they come along pretty often.

    I'm using it for the first time now, so far so good.

    Good to know! (none / 0) (#89)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 01:33:30 AM EST
    Please post back about how it worked out for you.

    I don't need to rent a car much anymore, but at one time, this would have been hugely helpful and could yet be again.

    Parent

    Will do. Got an email last night (none / 0) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 11:22:42 AM EST
    that they found a better deal, so they automatically re-booked me on the better deal.

    So far, so good!

    Parent

    Milk spoilage (none / 0) (#6)
    by observed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 04:13:23 PM EST
    Anybody else have a problem with milk not lasting long enough in the refrigerator?
    I'm not a big milk drinker, but I do like to have some for my cereal; however, I never finish milk before it goes bad---even a quart.
    I would say 3 days max, and usually two.
    I don't think it's refrigerator temp, because a couple years ago I was in an apt with a new, cold, refrigerator, and had the same problem.

    One thing that I wonder about: I'm a pedestrian, so I walk my groceries home. I wonder if shaking  of the milk could be relevant.

    I know this is not a big deal, but I don't understand. Handwashing doesn't seem to make a difference either.

    Ultra pasteurized mik. . . (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:27:31 PM EST
    Ultra pasteurized milk is heated to a higher temperature than merely pasteurized milk to destroy more latent spores. The flavor is also destroyed IMO.

    Organic milk tends to be ultra pasteurized because it isn't as popular and needs to last on the shelf longer. Once you break the seal, you'll still only get barely a week out of it in your fridge.

    FWIW, I buy regular pasteurized skim milk. I'm not going to overpay for milk that's cooked to death like Parmalat (which is actually pasteurized at "Ultra High Temperature" so it's shelf stable) just because it's "organic."

    Parent

    Also: buy your milk in cartons, not plastic (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:29:20 PM EST
    or glass: light is bad for the vitamins and flavor. Canned beer is better for the same reason.

    Parent
    Catch-22 (none / 0) (#66)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:07:59 PM EST
    Beer cans are made of aluminum which is not a good trace mineral to take into the body.  Also I can taste the aluminum.  Really.  So I'm skeptical about the flavor aspect.  And I never thought about justifying beer consumption based on vitamins.  :)

    I didn't know that about milk, but I've always preferred to get milk in cartons, anyway.  Maybe I'm accustomed to the taste of the wax coating :)

    Parent

    The beer sits against an epoxy, (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:25:43 PM EST
    not the aluminum. If the lip of the can bothers you, pour the drink into the glass. It's exactly like a mini keg. The problem with exposing beer to light isn't about the nutrients, it's about the flavor.

    Light causes skunked beer, and green and clear bottles are unable to protect the product. Why do you think people started shoving fruit into Corona? ;-)

    Parent

    The awful thing about Corona (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by Rupe on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 10:00:36 PM EST
    is its designed to taste skunky in "island beer" fashion (thus the clear glass).  Other beers of its type add artificial skunking agents, not sure on the proper name for those.  Only good ice cold, so you can't taste it, and certainly not the greatest choice for the beach, all things considered.  Brown beer bottles are pretty good at keeping in the flavor, but you're absolutely right and I'm glad its becoming more common for quality micro-brewers to can their beer.  It's somewhat more expensive with start up costs than merely bottling though.

    I used to do a lot of home brewing and I ended up switching to kegs to save the leg-work of bottling 50 individual bottles per 5 gallon batch.  Plus, its pretty great showing up to a party with 5 gallons of fresh homebrew and a tapper.

    Parent

    You'd be a regular (none / 0) (#93)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 02:03:03 AM EST
    invite to my parties, that's for sure!

    Parent
    Per a friend, organic milk (none / 0) (#11)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:11:24 PM EST
    stays good in the frig much longer than regular milk. Don't know if this is true from my own personal experience but she swears by it. It is more expensive than the regular kind but if you are throwing your current brand out after a couple of days then it might pay off for you and be worth a try.  

    Parent
    It does. (none / 0) (#14)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:26:55 PM EST
    IME, when buying it, if you compare the sell by dates to conventional milk, you'll generally see a longer time stamp on the organic. (or the more local small farm non certified organic organic ;)  ) I recently found a quart of organic yogurt that got pushed to the back of the fridge. Said sell by March 30th. It was fine, lol!~ :D

    Parent
    Okay, although ordinarily I wouldn't (none / 0) (#27)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:47:33 PM EST
    admit this, just last week I found in my refrigerator some organic sour cream that had a sell by of February something.  It was perfect on my baked potato.

    Parent
    lol!~ (none / 0) (#31)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:58:26 PM EST
    I had some of that yogurt today. With real chunky apricot/peach jammy/syrup that I made from over ripes I got cheap at the farmer's market :)

    Our fridges are saving things for us on the sly I think :)

    Parent

    I was wondering about that (none / 0) (#17)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:31:50 PM EST
    The 'sell by' dates do seem to be longer than I remember the non-organic milk being, and my 1/2 gallon containers seem to last two weeks in the fridge with no noticeable difference in taste.

    Parent
    Mine last about that long also (none / 0) (#30)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:54:11 PM EST
    I tend to go through milk a heck of a lot faster though, but when I don't, it's nice not to toss it or give it to the Dot . . .

    Parent
    re: Milk spoilage (none / 0) (#12)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:18:22 PM EST
    I don't think it has anything to do with refrigeration.  I was in the Dominican Republic a few years back looking for milk for my morning cereal.  I was shocked when I found the milk:  on the shelves, NOT the refrigerator.  As I recall, the directions said to refrigerate once open.  It lasted the rest of my stay there which was about 5 or 6 days (it didn't go bad, I just didn't use it all).  

    But that isn't an answer, is it?  In return I offer a question of my own:  Why does sandwich bread get stale so fast?  Since I've moved out east, I sometimes buy a loaf of bread intending to bring my lunch to work.  But the bread starts getting hard right away.  Even before I open it.  And it lasts in the fridge for a long, long time.  By contrast, the bread I got in Colorado stayed soft for longer but spoiled faster.

    I think I like that better.

    Parent

    My trick: (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by the capstan on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:28:20 PM EST
    I separate a loaf into small sections shortly after buyng and bag each section separately.  One baggy goes in the fridge for immediate use and the rest go in the freezer.  I keep out only one baggy at at time.  Learned to do that cause I did not put any preservatives in loaves made in my breadmaker. (Here in the humid south, I refrigerate bread instead of using a bread keeper.)

    Parent
    That is exactly what I do with (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:40:53 PM EST
    my bread that doesn't contain preservatives. IMO it works real well and the bread always seems fresh that way.  

    Parent
    On the other hand... (none / 0) (#18)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:34:07 PM EST
    when I was in college I used packaged sliced white bread to make sandwiches.

    I left my apartment for the weekend - forgetting to put away the opened package of bread.

    The thing was so chock-full of chemicals that when I returned three days later the bread was as "fresh" as when I had first opened the package.

    It would probably last for centuries.

    Parent

    Been trying to eat healthier (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:50:25 PM EST
    and have been buying sprouted 7 grain bread. It does not have any preservatives and must go into the freezer and/or refrigerator or it will start to grow mold almost before your eyes. Good tasting stuff tho.  

    Parent
    Did you buy it out east? (none / 0) (#24)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:41:42 PM EST
    Because that's what I think about the bread here...

    Parent
    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:51:02 PM EST
    The East.

    It was a commercially packaged bread - like "Tip Top" or "Wonderbread".

    I once heard a radio program by Carleton Fredricks, a nutritionist.
    He told a story about a package of white bread that lay open in the street. Rats ate the plastic packaging - but left the bread.

    Parent

    I think I've heard of that story (none / 0) (#69)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:10:43 PM EST
    But I'm pretty sure Baltimore rats aren't that discriminating.

    Nasty little creatures.

    Parent

    Probably the same (none / 0) (#28)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:49:56 PM EST
    chemicals that keep Twinkies soft until the end-times.  ;-)

    Parent
    I recently found (none / 0) (#92)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 01:57:09 AM EST
    a loaf of supermarket raisin bread in the back of my cupboard that was months old, maybe as many as six since I don't eat it often.

    It was perfectly fine.  No mold, no drying out, it was just as it was the day I put it in there, like it was from Mars.  I can't even imagine what they make this stuff out of that it would last that long.  Yech.

    Parent

    Happened to me once, too (none / 0) (#112)
    by sj on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:31:59 AM EST
    I really, really love bread.  I would hate to give it up.

    Parent
    Yep. I have not finished a loaf of bread (none / 0) (#46)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:11:46 PM EST
    since I moved to Florida. I don't like it cold out of the fridge.

    The store sells little half loaves out of the bakery section. At least I don't feel like I am wasting as much.

    Parent

    Have you checked the sell-by dates (none / 0) (#13)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:18:59 PM EST
    to make sure you're not buying milk that's "older?"  I tend to push aside the milk that's right up front and see if there's something newer behind it.

    Once you get it home, you could try putting the milk on an inside shelf, since it tends to be warmer on the door, and put it on an inside bottom shelf if you can, since cold air falls.

    I'd also consider taking it back to your store and seeing if they would replace it; milk's not cheap!

    Parent

    Ever try coconut milk? (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by the capstan on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:39:24 PM EST
    (Not from inside a coconut, but blenderized or something from the young flesh.)  Vegans also make milk from almonds, or you can buy almond milk.  (Soy and rice milk have drawbacks.)  Best ice cream I ever had was made from coconut milk.  Also, you can dilute a can of coconut milk at least 4 times.

    Parent
    I just tried Almond Milk (none / 0) (#75)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:45:28 PM EST
    I used it to make a Strawberry/Almond Smoothie. Made it with frozen strawberries so it was similar to a shake and very refreshing in this hot and humid weather.

    Will definitely buy more the next time it goes on sale.  

    Parent

    Generally, it's the question of milk-fat content: (none / 0) (#19)
    by BBQinDenver on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:35:07 PM EST
    the higher the fat content, the shorter the shelf life.  In my fridge non-fat lasts at least 3 weeks post sell-by date. 1%, 2%, and whole, significantly less...  

    Parent
    I buy only skim, by the gallon. I use 12oz a day, (none / 0) (#57)
    by jawbone on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:03:40 PM EST
    and it lasts through the whole gallon. About 10 days.

    I do look for the latest sell by date on the shelves I can find.  The store I go to has heavy traffic so there's fast turnover.  

    I did buy a gallon at a smaller store -- and it went bad in about 3-4 days. I was amazed, then noticed the sell by date had been very close to the date I bought it.

    Parent

    Thanks for the answers and tips. (none / 0) (#21)
    by observed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:38:05 PM EST
    I think I will try organic milk.
    Btw, milk is $7/gal or so where I am.


    Parent
    Some tropical islands have higher (none / 0) (#25)
    by observed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 05:44:43 PM EST
    food prices than others!
    The sad thing is that you get much fresher greens that I do, because mine come on slow barges, while yours come by plane.


    Parent
    I know what you mean. (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by observed on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 08:48:18 AM EST
    I was in Korea a few years ago, at a conference. The conference was in Kyeong-ju, in the Southeast. To get there, I took a train ride across the country from Seoul. I saw crops growing up to the tracks, almost, through the whole trip. Even in the city, there was a lot of food growing in open spaces.

    Our cavalier attitude towards food production and distribution just boggles my mind. When I was a kid, there was an old Italian woman down the street from us who sold flower bulbs and vegetables. She had a small back yard, but she grew a ton of vegetables. How much food could Americans grow in their own yards if they tried?


    Parent

    Don't Drink from the Container (none / 0) (#34)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:20:27 PM EST
    Our mouth's are full of bacteria and milk is a great media for bacteria.

    Humid summer air also has more bacteria, so things in general spoil faster, including wet laundry.

    It shouldn't matter if it gets a little warm, bacteria is what causes food to spoil, so long as the seal isn't broke, milk will last for a long time.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#36)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:47:17 PM EST
    I live alone, so I always drink from the container but don't have a prob with milk spoiling . . .

    So D@mn glad to be out of a summer humidity zone. Nuttin' like spoiled wet laundry, lol!~

    Parent

    Sucks (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 09:55:24 AM EST
    I am a bachelor and in the winter I can leave a load in the washer for like a week, in a good hot Houston summer, it sours in like 8 hours.  

    Being a WI farm boy, I drink milk by the gallon.  I love it and I love it cold, so using and washing many glasses totally sucks, but beats sour milk.

    Off note, I love chocolate milk when I am hung over and a couple months ago I went to the mart and got  a quart.  I took a couple sips, then put the cap back on to shake it, the top came off and it went all over.  

    A really scraggly bum said, "Don't Cry".

    Parent

    Chocolate milk for a hangover? (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:15:52 AM EST
    You are a brave man.

    Parent
    Don't think so (none / 0) (#91)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 01:54:29 AM EST
    Shaking shouldn't have any effect on spoilage.  I suspect your store is mishandling it at delivery.  If it sits out on the landing dock for half the day, even in cold weather, it really degrades the taste.

    Two or three days, there's definitely something wrong with the milk.  Try changing brands or stores?

    I get my milk raw from a pristine little farm in the next town, and it's fine up to a week after I get it (usually the day it was milked).


    Parent

    Raw as in unpasteurized? (none / 0) (#97)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 05:40:59 AM EST
    I wouldn't mess around with that, personally. I have had unhomogenized milk in the UK, though. The cream really does float to the top!

    Parent
    Living where I live, I wouldn't either (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by CST on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 09:58:14 AM EST
    But if I lived in VT, where small dairy farmers still rule, I might.  In fact, that's the only place I've ever had it in milk form, from a "pristine little farm" near by.

    I'm actually not a huge fan of unhomogenized milk.  The cream does rise to the top, but I've never managed to skim enough of it out.  It always comes out too creamy for my liking.

    Also, if you've travelled in Europe and like cheese, you've probably had raw dairy.

    Parent

    Raw hard cheese (none / 0) (#118)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 11:07:35 AM EST
    is typically thought to be safe if aged for a sufficiently long time. I do admit that I have often wanted to try "real" brie (and probably ate it unknowingly in France).

    Parent
    it's great for making ice cream (none / 0) (#122)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 11:50:42 AM EST
    and different types of yogurt  :) I used to keep it around for coffee and cooking also.

    Parent
    butter too (none / 0) (#124)
    by CST on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 12:01:34 PM EST
    we use to have one of those old fashioned hand-crank churners.  It was a lot of fun to see cream turn into butter right in front of your eyes.  Definitely made my arm sore though.

    Parent
    That's what I grew up with (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by sj on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:31:06 AM EST
    Well, not 100% but often enough.  My dad usually had a cow or two.  What I miss most is the unpasteurized clotted cream.

    Well, actually I miss my Dad the most.

    Parent

    Clotted cream (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 09:39:05 AM EST
    as in what they make in England and spread on scones?  That's one of the most glorious things I've ever eaten in my life.  Every farm wife and B&B proprietor seems to know how to make it, but I know a number of people who've tried it here and not been able to for some reason.

    Nice memories of your dad there.  I know how you feel.

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#146)
    by sj on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 10:52:56 AM EST
    The very same.  My dad would make it when he could.  

    He did construction (union!) in a 4 state area and there would be periods where he would only be home on weekends.  A weekend wasn't quite enough time to make a batch (as I recall it).  

    It was only when he was working close to home that he would be able to monitor it.  I remember it as requiring a bit of babysitting (due to timing and "state").  But when he was home... oh my.  We used it routinely on pancakes instead of butter.  We'd top desserts with it.  And omigosh, the pies my mother made.

    I first went to England after my Dad had passed.  I'd thought I would never taste that again.  So, silly as it sounds, having some on my dessert was a very emotional experience.  In addition to the religious experience of eating it.

    Parent

    No, I TOTALLY (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 17, 2011 at 02:15:47 AM EST
    understand your reaction.  It's not at all silly. (And yes, esting it is absolutely a religious experience, dad or no dad.)

    How did your dad learn to make it?

    PS-- my dad died more than 30 years ago, and I still miss him very acutely at times.

    Parent

    You know? I'm not sure (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by sj on Fri Jun 17, 2011 at 11:34:40 AM EST
    how he learned.  Exactly, anyway.  He was raised in a farming/ranching community, but who specifically taught him this art, I don't know.  I wish I could ask him.  I know it wasn't his mother, because, while Grandma made many fine things from scratch, this wasn't one of them.

    Whoever it was also taught him to make a kind of queso (cheese) using the milkfat.  It was kind of like a large single piece of cottage cheese (so it could be sliced) only sweeter.  I think that didn't require as much babysitting as the clotted cream because he made it more often.  After he retired and returned to New Mexico the cheese was much in demand amongst friends and relatives.  He gave it away for free.

    The cream would have been in huge demand but he only made it available to us.

    It's odd, isn't it?  No matter what age you are when your parents die, you still feel like an orphan.

    Parent

    I sure wouldn't from some (none / 0) (#143)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 09:37:01 AM EST
    unseen, unknown big factory farm somewhere.  But smaller dairy farmers have been drinking raw milk from their own cows forever, and I think there's only been one case of illness traced to raw milk many years ago in my state.

    Think about the fact that pasteurization is what allows those factory farms to largely ignore sanitation and healthy practices in keeping their cows.  If it wasn't pasteurized, people would be getting sick all over the place and they'd have to clean up their act.

    Farms in VT can sell a small amount of raw milk, but only at the farm, so the buyer can see what kind of conditions the cows are kept in.  They also get inspected periodically for safe handling practices.

    The small farm I get mine from (presided over by an exuberant red-headed gal from Ireland!) is so clean, you could literally eat your dinner off the barn floor.  Her husband is a kidney transplant recipient and he also drinks the milk, so their motivation to make sure it's untainted is incredibly high.

    I love milk, drink a lot of it, and this is just beautiful stuff.

    Parent

    Something interesting in the Kasey Anthony trial (none / 0) (#61)
    by loveed on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 08:20:19 PM EST
     The clothes found with the body was to small (shorts 24months)Callie wore 3 toddler.

    Doesn't really mean a lot (none / 0) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 10:20:08 AM EST
    Very small children's clothing isn't really that dependably sized and you can have items fit a child at an age that is way off from what the tag says.  My petite four year old granddaughter still has a few items labeled 24 months that fit her fine, particularly shorts and some stretchy T-shirts.

    Parent
    Infant and children clothes (none / 0) (#127)
    by loveed on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 03:39:45 PM EST
    usually run small. 24months is smaller than a 2toddler. Unless she was severely emaciated, there is no way a 3yr old would fit these pants.
     There are thousands of pictures of her look for yourself.

    Parent
    I'm not persuaded by "photo" evidence (none / 0) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 15, 2011 at 05:58:48 PM EST
    of size and scale without something you can measure by next to the subject.  If we had the child and the clothing before us we might know with more certainty.  But that isn't an option.

    Parent
    Site Violator vivian007 (none / 0) (#67)
    by sj on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:08:44 PM EST


    Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread | 147 comments (147 topical)

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