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A Million People in the Streets of Cairo

A million people marched today in Cairo. In Jordan, protests have led the King to dismiss his Prime Minister and his cabinet.

"There's something happening here...."

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    Two million (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Saul on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:11:54 AM EST
    according to Huffington post

    and more pouring in (none / 0) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:13:12 AM EST
    all the time according to al jazzera.

    Parent
    Be wary (none / 0) (#35)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:01:19 AM EST
    of how puffed up the crowd estimates get.  Yes, there are a lot of people, but HuffPo and other blogs have a history of overstimating numbers.

    Parent
    have you actually seen the (none / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:02:34 AM EST
    pictures?

    its not puffed.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#38)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:07:16 AM EST
    I also saw pictures of other major events where the number was greatly exaggerated. (See:  The 2008 inaurguration where they estimated 2 million + people, and it was closer to 1 million.  Nothing to sneeze at, but they were off by a million people!)

    Just be wary of any number reports - no one can tell immediately as these things are going on.  It's only after they study things like satellite photos can they make a guess, and even then, it's just a guess.

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:09:08 AM EST
    I did hear earlier that if the crowd keeps pouring in the way they currently are it could go way over two million.

    that was from the reliable news agency Al Jazzera.


    Parent

    Al Jazeera (none / 0) (#87)
    by star on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:20:03 PM EST
    Is not an unbiased observer in the happenings in Arab world. Nor are they totally reliable.I will go by CNN estimates over Al Jaz anytime.
    I have heard them grossly exaggerate(almost Fox like) while reporting events in  Pak etc, when I know for sure from people on the ground that facts are otherwise.

    Parent
    you will go by cnn (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:21:03 PM EST
    because al jazzera is biased.  

    mmmmmk

    Parent

    CNN (none / 0) (#93)
    by star on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:32:54 PM EST
    For lack of anything better. I am no fan of CNN .. they are not perfect, but their Egypt coverage is better than most others.. Maybe because I watch only Online and not continously.. a stronger dose might be too much to take :)

    Parent
    I haven't been watching BBC News recently, (none / 0) (#95)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:35:20 PM EST
    but their coverage on most issues is far and away superior to the American networks. You might want to give them a try.

    Parent
    BBC World News... (none / 0) (#100)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:50:31 PM EST
    has been so so...caught some really good people on the street interviews, though their talking heads are running with some of the same tired propaganda you'll find on Fox, just less obvious.

    The BBC ain't immune to catering the message to keep our Western arses buying detergent and going to work...don't wanna give us any bright ideas.

    Parent

    BBC (none / 0) (#102)
    by star on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:53:08 PM EST
    definitely have a better world view in their coverage of any incident , rather than an American view. I have not see any online streaming site for BBC. CNN and Al Jaz was easily available.

    I get texts from  my sister in Dubai and cousin in Saudi. Both have heavy disdain for AL Jazeera and they are mostly watching their local news covering non stop. If army is restrained tonight and crowds keep getting bigger, the belief(anticipation) is by tomorrow morning Mubarak will cave in. Arab world seems very much cautious about what the outcome is going to be.


    Parent

    "the Arab world (none / 0) (#103)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:56:37 PM EST
    seems very much cautious about what the outcome is going to be."

    because they are afraid they will be next.

    and they have good reason to be.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#108)
    by star on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 01:12:10 PM EST
    I agree. I hope the 'Monarchs' are shaking in their boots (or slipper or what ever it is they wear ). There is such an understanding between the religious leaders and the rulers in Saudi that this same kind of uprising will be more difficult in Saudi than any other Mid east county.

    Parent
    I like (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by sj on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:18:53 AM EST
    how you think in music, Jeralyn.

    thanks, sometimes (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:31:55 AM EST
    it comes faster to me than words. I read something and a song just starts just playing in my head that says it much better than I could.

    Parent
    Check, especially when (none / 0) (#12)
    by brodie on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:32:18 AM EST
    she brings out the classics from the 60s, the best decade in rock-pop music history.

    This is a famous 60s protest song though, referencing a 1966 local L.A. scuffle with the brutish po-leece trying to shut down a Sunset Strip youth nightclub.  I think band member Neil Young also had a separate personal brutal run-in with the LAPD at that time -- basically driving or walking with long hair, iirc.

    Parent

    One of my favorite songs of all time (none / 0) (#16)
    by Peter G on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:42:37 AM EST
    and has been for a long time now.

    Parent
    Trying to explain this to (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:25:25 AM EST
    FOXwashed people... the short version I use is this: you want freedom, but not for them, right? they don't get to choose in your world.

    Secondly, religion comes up, so I direct them to various websites like mirep.org, for context.

    Ultimately, I end up snarling something like you a closed minded idiotic bigot, and walk away.

    FOXwashing is incredibly powerful.

    The Fox coverage (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by lilburro on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:38:51 AM EST
    is remarkable.  And already has generated a lot of criticism, of course.  I've watched a few different programs and basically what happens is as follows:

    FOX ANCHOR:  What is the tone of the events down there??
    ON THE GROUND REPORTER:  This is really a secular demonstration, it's really not about anti-American rhetoric at all, and it doesn't seem like the Muslim Brotherhood has much of a grip on the rally...
    FOX ANCHOR:  Thanks a lot, now back to our studio...
    FOX ANCHOR:  Expert, how do we stop this rally from leading to a jihadist takeover of the Egyptian government?

    It's completely ridiculous.  And then of course there's this.

    Parent

    Gotta love the (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:41:16 AM EST
    fear mongering.

    Parent
    Well, there are some good reasons to (none / 0) (#24)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:49:33 AM EST
    be afraid.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#30)
    by lilburro on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 10:57:20 AM EST
    Please explain.  There are always good reasons to be afraid.  Other than obsessively observing that as a guiding principle, which is probably emblazoned in Fox's studios somewhere, I fail to see why that should be the tone of the Egypt coverage.

    Parent
    You don't see how fear might be (none / 0) (#47)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:24:03 AM EST
    the appropriate response to a massive upheavalin one of our few and most powerful mid east allies?

    Parent
    if I have any fear (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:26:44 AM EST
    its that we have been behind these tyrants far too long.  these people do not wish harm to us.

    yesterday I heard one say 'we want to be like the US.  we want to pick our president'

    thats all they want.  why you or anyone else is "afraid" of this is a mystery to me.  


    Parent

    Well in my case I'd be willing to lay better (none / 0) (#54)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:33:15 AM EST
    then even odds that Egypt will eventually become an Islamic Republic and move toward a less harsh form of theocratic government then Iran, but a theocratic government nonetheless.

    So, I'm afraid of that.

    Parent

    what makes you say that? (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by CST on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:56:24 AM EST
    I haven't seen any reporting that suggests that's what's happening in Egypt.  This isn't about religion at all.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say that even if it were a religious movement, it needn't be anti-U.S.  The reason movements like this are historically anti-U.S. has little to do with religion, and more to do with the fact that we keep propping up dictators in the middle east.

    Here is a chance to generate some actual good will in the region.  If we stand for the people of Egypt, rather than their autocratic leader, maybe they won't hate us, no matter what method they use of running their country.

    Israel is a semi-theocratic government as well.  A democratically elected theocratic government.  If people choose to rule themselves based on religion, that's their choice.  But that doesn't have to be a bad thing for the U.S. - unless we make it so.

    And honestly, I really doubt that's what's going to happen in Egypt anyway.  All actual reporting from Egypt would suggest the opposite.

    Parent

    And how's that theocracy working for Israel? (none / 0) (#74)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:00:36 PM EST
    Their Orthodox powers behind the President are leading that country into ruin.

    I don't think the theocracy is going to happen overnight or anything. But religion is a powerful, virulent force. I think that there's a really strong chance it will take a solid hold over the government of Egypt.

    Parent

    how's the current gov't (none / 0) (#86)
    by CST on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:19:31 PM EST
    working out for egypt?

    Parent
    or alabama (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:20:10 PM EST
    that is clear (none / 0) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:35:54 AM EST
    I will take that bet

    Parent
    Oh, you have been watching Fox (none / 0) (#56)
    by lilburro on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:37:48 AM EST
    I assume you are referring to the political minority known as the Muslim Brotherhood?

    Parent
    who (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:42:25 AM EST
    btw renounced violence decades ago.  but they are still, you know, moozlims.


    Parent
    After they murdered Sadat (none / 0) (#72)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:56:54 AM EST
    you never miss (none / 0) (#73)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:59:41 AM EST
    a talking point opportunity do you.

    in fact thats bull.  it was not the muslim brotherhood who did that.  I heard it discussed yesterday.  I cant remember the name but it was a different group.

    Parent

    It was (none / 0) (#76)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:07:08 PM EST
    Tanzim al-Jihad - an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood (which Sadat was a member of, until he renounced it, and made them angry).

    Parent
    so why didnt you say he was killed (none / 0) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:08:30 PM EST
    by "an offshoot of the muslim brotherhood?"

    I actually know the answer.

    Parent

    Two busy believing (none / 0) (#79)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:09:55 PM EST
    There's 2 million people in the streets just by looking at a couple of pictures.

    Parent
    Rather (none / 0) (#80)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:10:16 PM EST
    I'm too busy believing puffed up numbers.

    Parent
    sounding (none / 0) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:10:33 PM EST
    desperate.  

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#82)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:11:06 PM EST
    I don't get desperate about commenters on a blog.

    Parent
    facts (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:07:38 PM EST
    but dont let them get in the way.

    Sadat is also a former member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and he promptly reinstates the group as a legal organization and welcomes them back into Egypt. Sadat also has a very close relationship with the head of Saudi intelligence, Kamal Adham. Through Adham, Sadat also develops close working relationships not only with the Saudis, but with the CIA and Henry Kissinger. Sadat uses the power of the religious right, and the Muslim Brothers in particular to contain the Nasserites and their resistance to the radical changes he introduces. During Sadat's tenure in the 1970's Egypt becomes a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, and figures like Sheikh Omar Abdul-Rahman and Ayman al-Zawahiri gain great power in Egypt during this period. Ironically Sadat himself is assassinated in 1981 by Islamic Jihad, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood


    Parent
    and even so (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:43:17 AM EST
    by generous estimates they would only get about 30% in an election.

    Parent
    30% for just one particular theocractic (none / 0) (#64)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:48:36 AM EST
    group is actually a fair amount. I'm sure that other such groups will pop up and gain footholds of their own.

    There's a reason that Texas and Kansas schoolboards are full of crazies. People want them there.

    Parent

    I dont know what you have been watching (none / 0) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:51:05 AM EST
    but I recommend you turn it off at once and turn on Al Jazzera.  that is if you want to know who is really in the streets of egypt.

    Parent
    Let me put it another way. If 30 Senators (none / 0) (#83)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:16:33 PM EST
    in this country were to the right of Ralph Reed and another 60 or so shared the same religion but were more moderate, how would you feel about America's chances of remaining a secular democracy?

    Parent
    I dont know what country you live in (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:19:08 PM EST
    but in mine 30 senators ARE to the right of Ralph Reed and another 60 or so share the same religion,

    probably more than 60 actually

    Parent

    I don't watch Fox News and I'm not (none / 0) (#63)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:46:07 AM EST
    necessarily talking about the Brotherhood. The country is over 90% Sunni Muslim. In times of unrest and strife religion becomes even more powerful. During the transition and aftermath I am certain that theocratic elements will gain ground. How much is less clear.

    Parent
    well (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:49:46 AM EST
    you know what.  its their country.  they have a right to a theocratic government if thats what they want.  I dont see how anyone watching this could come to the conclusion that it what they want but it is their right.

    the fact that Israel is sh!tting bricks shows nothing more than the fact that they have contributed to the repression of these people for decades and the chickens might just be coming home to roost.

    karma is a b!tch.

    Parent

    I didn't say they don't have a right to vote in (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:52:59 AM EST
    a bunch of crazy tyrants. They do. And I am afraid that they will do just that.

    Parent
    and yet somehow (none / 0) (#67)
    by lilburro on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:52:01 AM EST
    the USA avoided the fate of being a theocratic government.

    Based on Egyptian attitudes towards Coptic Christians in general (who are 9% of the population) I can't imagine they would establish a theocratic government.  9% of 80 million is still a lot of people to deal with.

    Parent

    An interesting poll from December (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:03:22 PM EST
    About Muslims' views on Hamas and Hezbollah (two organizations classified by the US government as terrorist organizations), al-Qaeda, and Islam's role in political life in general.

    The numbers are probably what you expect them to be, but stats like this really stood out for me, and don't seem to be in line with what we're hearing today:

    Only in Jordan and Egypt do majorities of Muslims say there is no struggle between modernizers and Islamic fundamentalists in their countries. About seven-in-ten (72%) Jordanian Muslims and 61% of Egyptian Muslims offer this opinion; just 20% and 31%, respectively, see a struggle in their countries. In both of these countries, however, Muslims are now more likely than they were in 2009 to say there is a struggle; a year ago, 14% of Muslims in Jordan and 22% in Egypt saw a struggle in their countries.

    Among Muslims who see a struggle between modernizers and Islamic fundamentalists, majorities in Lebanon (84%), Turkey (74%), Pakistan (61%) and Indonesia (54%) side with those who want to modernize their countries; a plurality of Jordanian Muslims who say there is a struggle in their country also side with the modernizers (48%). In Egypt and Nigeria, however, most Muslims who see a struggle in their countries say they identify with Islamic fundamentalists (59% and 58%, respectively).

    And

    About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.

    When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.

    Not very democratic ideals.

    Parent

    and people are revolting (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by CST on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:17:59 PM EST
    to get rid of the current government, despite accepting all of these ideals.

    That should tell you something about the current government.

    You are either worried about what will happen to Egyptians in Egypt - in which case you should support their cause to decide for themselves.

    Or you are worried about what will happen to the U.S. in such an event.  In which case I'd say your priorities are a bit out of whack because to do that would require support of a dictator in a country half way around the world that doesn't really affect your life in any way.  All based on the feeling that something different is scary.  

    And frankly, it ignores history, which tells us that behaving in such a way in the past has made us a lot of enemies.

    Parent

    It ignores history (none / 0) (#89)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:20:31 PM EST
    Actually, in some ways, it's mirroring history - specifically, Tehran in 1979.

    That worked out well for us, didn't it?

    Parent

    yea... (3.50 / 2) (#92)
    by CST on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:27:25 PM EST
    actually you are proving my point.

    Trying to prop up a dictator while the change winds are blowing is fruitless and will only harbor ill-will.

    Did you actually read that article at all?

    ""In Iran, all our investment in an individual, rather than in a country, came to naught," an American colonel named Colin Powell observed from the Pentagon. "When the shah fell, our Iran policy fell with him.""

    Parent

    Pew Poll (none / 0) (#97)
    by star on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:44:22 PM EST
    http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

    This is worry Some. especially with regards to Gender separation and view of harsh punishments..

    in Egypt 82% support stoning for adultry and  77% cutting of limbs for robbery and 84% support death penalty for leaving Muslim faith. This poll was taken in April 2010. Guess the country is ripe for taken advantage of by theocratic mullas. I understand the caution of Obama administration and the rest of the world. Egypt going Iran's way can be very bad for the world.

    I hope and pray this same fervor and unity will displayed by Egyptians to not let fanatics from getting any foothold in their country. If there is a move towards true democracy and liberty for people in Egypt, that will work as an inspiration for the rest of Arab world and there will be changes (for the better) .

    Parent

    Mubarak had done far worse things (none / 0) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:49:39 PM EST
    than cut off limbs.  but thats ok, right.  as long as he is our monster.


    Parent
    Mubarak (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by star on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 01:05:54 PM EST
    Is a dictator and he acts like one. What is worrying the leaders of most countries - including Arab countries is to see if Egypt want a shift towards modernity or rigid Theocracy. I think this is a very valid fear since the outcome here will have domino effect all over mid east.
    My concern is not about US as much as it is for all the other countries in that region. Most of them have never experienced democracy or freedom of thought or expression. How they will use their freedom in the absence of a strong leader or a democratic apparatus in place so there is no power vacuum is very important IMO.
    I am hoping there is a sensible power shift and the people of Egypt become an example to other Muslim countries . Some kind of modernization is long over due in that region.. an entire generation of youth is growing up with out solid education or opportunities. We do not have any  evidence which way Egyptians will go and this is why world is in a wait and watch mode.
    I am glad Obama is showing enough restraint to let matters take its own course.

    Parent
    I don't know if you've been watching Fox (none / 0) (#50)
    by lilburro on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:27:31 AM EST
    but fear is actually the almost exclusive response of that Network.

    Parent
    of course it is (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 11:29:43 AM EST
    it is their primary product.  fear of moozlims, fear of gheys, fear of brown people.

    its what they sell.  without it the network would disappear over night.


    Parent

    The unrest in Egypt (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:34:25 PM EST
    isn't about not chopping off enough hands or stoning women to death for adultery, it's about a repressive government that grinds down its' own people and makes nice with Israel in return for baksheesh from Uncle Sam, that is to say, you and me.

    An Israeli these days might well echo Thomas Jefferson:

    I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.



    Parent
    it is truly amazing to me (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:38:59 PM EST
    that someone could look at the same footage I am seeing and getting goose bumps and see nothing but scary threatening moozlims on the rampage.


    Parent
    And insist (none / 0) (#98)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:45:26 PM EST
    that there can't be 2 million of them at the demonstration in Cairo, at the same time.

    Of course, there are those who insist to this day our only mistake in Iran was not giving the Shah enough support when he needed it, I kid you not.

    Parent

    So if you have some reservations about (none / 0) (#101)
    by tigercourse on Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 12:52:00 PM EST
    a massive societal and governmental upheaval in a country of 100 million in the center of a strategically vital area you are automatically just a muslim hater? That's a stretch.


    Parent