Rationality, Faith And Tebow Hating

Chuck Klosterman writes:

I doubt many Christians believe that God is unfairly helping [Tim] Tebow win games in the AFC West. I'm sure a few hardcores might, but not many. However, I get the impression that especially antagonistic secularists assume this assumption infiltrates every aspect of Tebow's celebrity, and that explains why he's so beloved by strangers they cannot relate to. Their negative belief is that penitent, conservative Americans look at Tebow and see a man being "rewarded" for his faith, which validates the idea that believing in something abstract is more important than understanding something real. And this makes them worried about the future, because they see that thinking everywhere. It seems like the thinking that ran this country into the ground.

(Emphasis supplied.) I don't think the Tebow haters are as smart as Klosterman thinks they are. Merrill Hoge? Chris Carter? Puhleaze. But I was struck by the reverse -- the irrational view that not playing Kyle Orton was an act of insanity. What kind of rational person thinks that? Kyle Orton is a terrible quarterback. How could anyone get offended by his benching? In fact, when Orton was released by the Broncos, I was astonished at the view that Orton was some prize for a team to pick up. Kyle Orton as Tom Brady?? Really? That attitude seems driven by irrational hatred of Tebow. More . .

Earlier in the article, Klosterman wrote:

Obviously, religion plays a role in this (we live in a Christian nation, Tebow is a Christian warrior, non-Christians see themselves as ostracized, and Christians see themselves as eternally persecuted). But the real reason this "Tebow Thing" feels new is because it's a God issue that transcends God, assuming it's possible for any issue to transcend what's already transcendent. I'm starting to think it has something to do with the natural human discomfort with faith and not just faith in Christ, but faith in anything that might (eventually) make us look ridiculous.

If Klosterman is arguing that the Tebow haters are driven by antipathy to religion,. that seems a weird argument. I suppose it could be true, but I doubt it. I think there must be something else going on, some other irrational hatred. I'm not sure what it is, but anti-religion just does not strike me as where this is coming from.

I think it is a combination of factors, envy, doubt, fear of something different, rather than anti-religion that has fueled the irrational Tebow hate.

One thing for sure, it is not a defense of rationality that drives it. Klosterman's thesis is ridiculous.

Speaking for me only

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    My sipping of the... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:13:55 PM EST
    Tebow hater-ade is irrational in regards to football...the only stat that matters is wins, and Tebow is winning.  Gotta hand it to him and the Broncos, he has them believing and winning, and ya can't argue with that.

    God on their sleeve goody two-shoes just ain't my style...all else being equal on the field I prefer a QB in the Joe Willy mold to lead my team...drinking, cussing, & chasing skirts Monday-Saturday, throwing TD's with a hangover on Sunday.  I don't know, its just cooler and more romantic that way.  

    Right! Give me Kenny Stabler ... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by cymro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:53:08 PM EST
    ... "bombing, scrapping, dinking, dunking and scrambling on the field, blond hair flapping from beneath the helmet, and, off the field, studying the playbook by the light of a jukebox, at Gene Upshaw's bar, at Al's Cactus Room, at all of the dimly lit dives where the Raiders loved to unwind. He became the master of the fourth-quarter comeback. His unrestrained love of life off the field knew few bounds, but on the Coliseum turf, he developed into a Zen master in the huddle, always at his coolest when the situation was at its most desperate. "This is our time," he'd say, to the ten men surrounding him. And none of them doubted it. Starting with that 1973 season, he engineered five straight conference championships -- and, in 1976, the franchise's first Super Bowl."

    The legend of Kenny Stabler


    Hell yeah... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:00:26 PM EST
    if I didn't bleed Kelly Green & White I could definitely get down with those 70's Raider squads led by The Snake.

    Thats the kinda QB I'm talking about...personality I can relate to, and a winner.


    They were fun years (none / 0) (#17)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:04:39 PM EST
    for those of us living in Raider territory :)

    I'm afraid... (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:11:00 PM EST
    in the age of cell-phone cameras and a no-holds barred media, we'll never see QB's that openly cool ever again...they would be hassled to no end.

    Different era then (none / 0) (#45)
    by brodie on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:49:55 PM EST
    and people weren't yet enlightened about the downside of heavy drinking lifestyles.  

    Not so cool today to live a life so heavily involved in drinking.

    But the actual on-field performance of the players you mention, their style of play and clutch wins -- that was and remains cool.


    I'm not saying be a raging alkie.... (none / 0) (#179)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 08:03:30 AM EST
    just that my ideal QB knows how to party.

    Thinking of Matt Leinart's little brew-ha-ha over the hot tub and beer bong pics at USC...thats what a QB is supposed to do off the field.  The Snake or Broadway Joe would never have apologized for that.  


    I understand (none / 0) (#196)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:16:08 AM EST
    but I consider the hard partying star player to be a considerable stereotype, an old story that's gotten to be a bore and often a major embarrassment for sports.  Not that cool since Jim Bouton exposed this juvenile and self destructive side of sports in his informative book Ball Four forty years ago.

    There's also nothing cool about the self righteous sanctimonious goody two shoes suck up types with or without the religion.

    What's cool for me is to see star players avoid these two extremes, stay out of the bars and police blotters while making quiet positive charitable contributions to the community where they play, or occasionally sounding off in liberal ways to the many outrages against democracy occurring in this country.


    to know how to party hardy, then mine went and shot himself in the leg at a club.

    Effen moran.


    I draw a line... (none / 0) (#198)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:32:37 AM EST
    at gun-toting, guns and partying don't mix.

    I know its silly to care, I guess its just easier to root for what you relate to...hence Tebow's many fans in the evangelical community, and Broadway Joe's many fans in bars and taverns throughout the NY, and Ricky Williams' many fans in the stoner community.

    I had a hard time rooting for Charlie Ward and his brand of whacked-out Christianity when he played the point for the Knicks.


    Well Ricky Williams was kinda cool (none / 0) (#200)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:49:21 AM EST
    for walking away from the game during his prime to explore spiritual matters (and probably to smoke dope without worrying about drug tests).  The Cardinals star who gave up his NFL career to serve in the military in our Mideast wars -- cool even if he was mistaken in his career choice.  

    Cool in sports is doing the unexpected, the unusual, the perhaps eccentric.  But not the usual booze n broads stuff.


    I'm not so quick to knock... (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:55:34 AM EST
    booze and broads...its one of the perks to shortening your lifespan and risking brain injury.

    Pat Tillman was an extremely cool dude...he liked his beers, an unapologetic atheist, loaded with character and integrity and loyalty.  Eternal scorn for the government that used his sacrifice as a propaganda tool, and how they stonewalled his family in their search for the truth surrounding his death.


    Kenny Stabler and the rest of the Raiders (none / 0) (#202)
    by magster on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 11:33:27 AM EST
    represent evil and all that is not Tebow.

    Joe Willy had the prettiest spiral (none / 0) (#57)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:04:15 PM EST
    His passes were works of art, until he no longer had any knees....

    Hmmmmm....Tebow hating (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:35:20 PM EST
    Are you talking about Tebow hating over the broad spectrum of Americana or Coloradans who are less than excited about Tim Tebow?  I can't really hate Tim Tebow, it takes too much energy.  Saying the name Tim Tebow and Denver causes me to grimace though.

    I was born in Colorado Springs, my father's family were settlers.  Focus on the Family moved into Northern Colorado Springs along with their many many brethren with their free family playland and their troops that run around trying to degayify young gay people downtown, and for liberals of the area let's just say we aren't happy about any of it. They have demanded religion in our public schools, they refuse to have secular boundaries.  Anything secular infringes on their freedoms, just ask them.

    Right across I-25 from Focus on Everybody Else's Family sits the Air Force Academy.  Colorado Springs has always been proud of that.  And then the Navigators with their secret meetings and secret teas and Focus and the Family began recruiting military officers and we know how all that has gone down at the Air Force Academy.

    Northern Colorado Springs has just about grown into Southern Denver. It's all about location location location and the way that Tim Tebow and his family have marketed him.....well, sorry BTD but people who don't respect religious boundaries kind of disgust me.  I've had enough of them.  Not sure I'll ever be excited about Tim Tebow playing well at Mile High.  Oh well, I'm sure he'll miss me....not

    He and his family could have kept their religion to themselves like the rest of us.  It was their choice to make it an issue and now some of us have issues that are interconnected to issues and issues all surrounding that whole area of Colorado at this time.  Tim Tebow used his talent to market his religion, not me.

    I agree with you (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by Madeline on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:15:04 PM EST
    I am so sick of every interview after the game that he begins; "First let me thank JC ....." It drives me crazy.

    My judgement of him began when he was the spectacle at Florida; little bible verses under his eyes; he and his Mother making Christian public service announcements. I know it's not his fault specifically.  He was raised in a very religious and dogmatic sect of religious fundamentalism and is a true believer. He is bound to profess thanks to everything.

    I'm sorry but to quote the Bible is .what...proof?  Puleeze! You get ten people in a room who read and study the Bible and you get ten different interpretations. Just as it is written ...interpretations. Quote me a passage that says, Praise J C and ye shall beat the NO Saints.

    I am a believer too. Maybe I'll start every comment on the blogs by saying: Thanks to my Lord and Savior and JC, the Democrats are ahead in the polls. Ha


    My impression of Tebow changed (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Natal on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:34:10 PM EST
    when he took that young lady who had brain cancer and whom he had just met the day before to the Heisman dinner as his date.

    When you do good things, good things come back to you.  Just a law of karma -- as you sow so shall you reap imho.


    Karma (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Madeline on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:44:11 PM EST
    well...it's either karma or neuroscience. The brain has a lot to do with the message you give it.

    Could be neuroscience too. (none / 0) (#166)
    by Natal on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 10:01:31 PM EST
    Every thought, action makes some sort of impression in the brain in varying degrees.  I don't think karma and neuroscience are mutually exclusive.

    My attitude about Tim Tebow will change (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 08:26:17 AM EST
    When he apologizes for his part in that commercial and publicly announces he no longer endorses or affiliates himself with Focus on the Family.

    Sounds to me like.... (none / 0) (#68)
    by christinep on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:23:56 PM EST
    you may be in heavy duty reaction against that strange conservative enclave of Colorado Springs, MT. (Understandably, if I hailed from the Springs at that time, old me might feel the same need for as much distance in all Springs bad memories as possible.)

    But...the Springs always have been a bit different. Not simply because of Focus on the Family. The Air Force Academy--together with Ft. Carson & NORAD to the south--have contributed to the conservative bent of the city; also, for many years, it represented the retirement locale of people from eastern Colorado & even Kansas.  Lo & Behold...the Springs is even changing a bit because it is growing rapidly & the demographics are shifting bit by bit. When I was a kid, about the only thing you would want to see in the Springs other than Pikes Peak & the Broadmoor treat was Michelle's ice cream parlour. Today, there is a decent symphony, summer opera (occasionally), a few good restaurants, good college level activities, and a few more Democrats. (Yep, I do understand that being born in the Springs might lead one to err in voting for Reagan & all that too :))

    Bottom line: Colorado Springs is growing, for sure. But, it is not growing to encompass Denver. In fact, the Denver southern suburbs resemble most suburbs. The Denver metropolitan area has grown larger, more complex, &--as a totality--more urbane & Democratic.

    Here is what I would ask: Whatever the very real negative leftovers from your time in the Springs, don't besmirch Denver & Mile-Hi by including us in that same venue. Pretty please (?)  When you come to Denver, let me know...and we can see those differences together.

    P.S. I'm a Tebow fan because of the way he has energized the team (& the team clearly appreciates that) & energized the area. It is fun--and also anxiety-producing--to watch the Broncos play these days. As for his gestures of a religious nature: I choose to believe that he is expressing his thanks for being able to be his best, to not be hurt, to do what is right...not about reward & punishment; but, about thanks. Given all the other expressions & outbursts from some so-called football stars before, his relatively modest free expression of thanks does not disturb me. (But that is just my view.)


    My time in Colorado Springs? (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 08:41:27 AM EST
    I was born there.  I have around 160 cousins there, I'm not kidding, this last generation has made us look like rabbits.  I spend vacations and holidays there when I can.  It is my home.  I'm still a registered voter there.  My grandmother was an El Paso Democratic party leader.  My mother died when I was seven and Vera raised me after that for the most part where mothering comes in.  I spent the days before elections and election day surrounding by call lists as she called everyone and made arrangements for people to be picked up and driven to the polls if they needed it.  Her biggest victory in RED El Paso County was Barney Iuppa.  It is more than a moment in time I've spent in Colorado Springs and El Paso County :)  And I don't care how RED El Paso County ever was, I've seen the right argument made and watched it go blue before back in the really evil RED days.

    I even have friends who live within the Focus on the Family "enclave" I'll call it :)  We don't talk about it though.  If they bring their FOTF crap with them....well, nuff said, no more friendship.  You respect my boundaries or go the hell away.  They did originally move in next to FOTF because the wife thought she wanted to be a part of them but then she decided not, not sure why.  But she likes living in the extreme Christian daily atmosphere that the coven provides her :)  Her husband Mike is a Jack Christian who sins at the bar with us when she doesn't know :)

    And I don't care how much she likes what the coven atmosphere gives her as she goes about her daily business.  She isn't using Colorado Springs tax dollars or Colorado Springs public schools to teach her brand of any religion to Colorado Springs children...over my DEAD BODY literally!


    And as for what happened at the Air Force (none / 0) (#184)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:01:58 AM EST
    Academy.  First of all, my sister-in-law was a cadet, her husband graduated and she did not because she married him.  She was 2 years younger, and you cannot be married and attend the Academy.  But I have come to understand the Air Force Academy a little bit from many sides now.

    When I married my husband in Colorado Springs, I somehow made some list and received an invitation to then attend a "special tea" at Glen Eyrie.  The hangout of the Navigators.  They wow you with their appearance of wealth and prestige, and they want little ole you.  You are that special :)

    They were recruiting heavily and hard from within military officer ranks.  I wish I knew who was giving them all of our names and addresses.  That was 1998..1999...and then low and behold the Air Force Academy blew up.  Nobody wants a ghetto lifestyle and goes to the Air Force Academy.  Those kids are easy targets for the that whole Vampire Christian sect around there :)


    For you Tebow haters (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:55:41 PM EST
    here is one more thing to hate. His play this year has kicked in a $470,000 bonus from his contract.

    But Denver saved $2.9 million by waiving Orton... (none / 0) (#203)
    by magster on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 11:36:43 AM EST
    who got paid that $2.9 million to throw one incomplete pass for KC before breaking his finger.

    Jesus forbade public displays of piety (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by cymro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:31:48 PM EST
    If you're a practicing Christian, this is what the Bible has to say:

    Matthew 6:1 Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

    Matthew 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. (6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

    In the following verses, Jesus proceeds to deliver The Lords Prayer, so this portion of the Bible should be quite familiar to practicing Christians. Maybe Tebow and other demonstrative sports stars believe that these verses do not apply to them?

    How did you happen to have this handy? (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:38:19 PM EST
    Google? (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:41:05 PM EST
    Easy (none / 0) (#86)
    by cymro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:00:38 PM EST
    I looked it up in the Bible, found that it was Matthew Chapter 6, and Googled for the quotes.

    Here is the link if you're interested: Matthew 6. You can easily find plenty more versions, if you don't care for the NIV translation.


    How did you know what to look up in the bible?

    By being familiar with the Bible ... (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by cymro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:22:31 PM EST
    ... and, in particular, with the Gospels.

    All good. (none / 0) (#105)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:46:03 PM EST
    Do you have a Thompson chain link (none / 0) (#106)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:47:30 PM EST
    reference Bible?  

    Isn't chain link a type of fence? (5.00 / 0) (#114)
    by cymro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 05:54:55 PM EST
    (Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)

    Actually, I have an NIV Study Bible--plus numerous other translations that mostly stay put on the shelf! But now that you have introduced me to the Thompson Chain Link Reference, I will take a look at one the next time I am in a decent bookstore (assuming they don't all go out of business before I get the chance). Or maybe my local second-hand bookstore will have one.

    As an information architect, and the author of a heavily cross-referenced 700-page book myself, it's always interesting to look at how authors tackle cross-referencing within a text. And Bibles probably provide the most extreme examples of solutions to this challenge. Roget's Thesaurus is interesting, but it has no text.


    Chain-Reference! (none / 0) (#131)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 07:51:48 PM EST
    No he did not. (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:47:26 PM EST
    Mark 6:41: "And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all."
     Matthew 14:19: "...took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude." (KJV)
     Luke 9:16: "Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude."
     John 6:11: "And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would."

    Now, unless you want to say that giving thanks is not a prayer....


    I think you could make... (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Dadler on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:30:13 PM EST
    ...a very compelling argument that giving thanks for people learning to share (the real lesson of the loaves and fishes) is qualitatively different than getting on one knee in a packed stadium on national TV to thank the Lord for caring about a football game, in a league that isn't exactly any beacon of Christ-like anything.  Just my opinion and, again, I have no desire to ban any displays of faith in the NFL.  Anymore than I want displays of atheism banned, if they ever occur -- more dangerous to shout that you don't believe than you do, at least in this heavily fundamentalist nation.

    Yes, but (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:46:24 PM EST
    The point is what is a prayer. Giving thanks is a prayer. Simple as that. You are communicating with God.

    What I dislike is a defensive player dancing and celebrating after tackling a ball carrier who has just made a 40 yard gain.

    And the real dangerous thing in Mile High is to show up in the opponents colors.


    Does Tebow talk out loud (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:09:44 PM EST
    while he is Tebowing during games?

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:19:15 PM EST
    I believe I heard him say:

    "Lord, I'd just like to thank you for that waitress in South Bend. You know who she is -- she kept calling your name. (or was that Jimmy Dugan?)


    Are you telling me he ain't a virgin? (none / 0) (#97)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:22:27 PM EST
    Tebow proves there is a God (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 05:16:46 PM EST
    Every time he passes for a touchdwon it is a miracle, as he couldn't do that without divine intervention.

    "Displays" is the key word, IMO (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by cymro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:18:29 PM EST
    The point of the text in Matthew is that excessive displays of religiosity are hypocritical, when all that's necessary is a quiet personal prayer of supplication -- or, as you say Jim, giving thanks. IMO, that text, when interpreted for the modern world we live in today, does not advocate demonstrative actions during games, or post-game interviews on national TV.

    That's hardly a strict constructionist/ (none / 0) (#99)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:23:20 PM EST
    divinely inspired interpretation.  

    If you want to be really "strict" ... (5.00 / 0) (#103)
    by cymro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:43:47 PM EST
    ... I think the text may rule out all public prayer of any kind.

    As to the question of whether my interpretation is (to any degree) divinely inspired, neither you nor I can say :-). But--with the aid of Google, as usual--you can find other example of similar interpretations, for example inJesus on Prayer, Part 1. See, in particular, the fourth paragraph:

    Now, I don't think that Jesus literally means that we should never pray in public because He Himself prayed in public on several occasions and acknowledged that He knew people were listening. Certainly we should not pray in public with the attitude of the hypocrites, but it is not forbidden from the passage to pray in public. I believe Jesus is contrasting the attitude of true faith with the attitude of the hypocrite. Even if we can't isolate ourselves so that our focus is only on God we should have the attitude and intent in our heart to focus only on God when we pray.

    I agree that it is "excessive" (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:34:25 PM EST
    that sets the standard.

    Matthew 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

    I haven't seen anything Tebow does that approaches that standard.


    Considering how many MLB players (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 05:26:54 PM EST
    cross themselves and/or look meaningfully upward, hard to see why such a fuss over one football player.  

    And I always thought (none / 0) (#112)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 05:34:37 PM EST
    baseball players were looking up to see if it was going to rain. And isn't the cross to keep away the curse of Jobu?

    Jobu is supposed (none / 0) (#128)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 07:33:35 PM EST
    to help hitters. If the pitchers were looking up, they'd be looking for help with the curse.

    Those seven last words were pretty (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:03:28 PM EST
    public and personal.  Plus a sermon on the mount?  come on.  

    Didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:39:29 PM EST
    just noting that the only way you can say that Jesus taught we must only pray in private is to say that giving thanks is not a prayer.

    I haven't the vaguest idea (none / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:55:56 PM EST
    as to why you bring up calling down a vengeful lord as a reply to my comment.

    Perhaps it is just you being you.


    I can tolerate any (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:46:33 PM EST
    post touchdown celebration, religious or non-religious, except for TO spiking on the Star.  That is an abomination!

    Oh, I don't know (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Zorba on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:54:17 PM EST
    I really don't care one way or another about Tebow- don't like him, don't dislike him, and his faith and the expression of his faith are his business.  What I am beginning to wonder about, though, is BTD's ongoing obsession with Tim Tebow, and who likes or doesn't like (or hates) him.........              ;-)

    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:56:33 PM EST
    likes to post anything perceived as controversial. It's good for ratings ;-)

    And speaking of ratings (none / 0) (#52)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:58:13 PM EST
    The kickoff for the Denver Broncos game against the New England Patriots on Sunday afternoon Dec 18 has been moved to a national broadcast on Sunday night.

    Thank goodness! That was supposed to (none / 0) (#67)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:23:17 PM EST
    be Ravens-Chargers, and I really hate it when my team (Ravens) plays those Sunday night games.  Sunday night, the games don't end until 11:30 or so, and there I am, all fired up, wide awake and looking at starting Monday with only a couple hours of sleep!

    Actually not all that fond of Monday or Thursday night games, either, but with the Thanksgiving night Ravens/49ers game, I was saved by not having to work the day after.

    I guess the league looking for the maximum dollar value of a highly-rated Sunday night game works out well for me this time.


    Not much to get worked up over, the Ravens (none / 0) (#79)
    by republicratitarian on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:47:42 PM EST
    should kill the Chargers. But I do need them (Ravens)to lose at least one more time so my Steelers can win the division.

    Hold off on that Kickoff change (none / 0) (#69)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:25:21 PM EST
    NBC and CBS are fighting it out for rights to the game.

    Thank goodness for flex scheduling... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:34:06 PM EST
    ...although I feel relatively confident that this will be Tebow's second loss of the season, I'm glad I won't have to stream the game.

    I hope it's a competitive game, but more than that I hope the Broncos coaching staff doesn't decide to "reward" Tebow's success by allowing him (forcing him) to play more conventionally. That would be very counterproductive in every way.


    Not yet (none / 0) (#145)
    by rdandrea on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:50:23 PM EST
    Tebow. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:16:55 PM EST
    In the early part of the season, before it became apparent that Cam Newton's stellar play wasn't enough to lift the Panthers' to a winning season, Cam Newton got a ton of attention, too.

    Winning against all odds is a great narrative. I love watching Tebow play and I think he's a good quarterback and a great leader. In the end, Christianity doesn't have much to do with ESPN's love affair with a guy who constantly leads last minute drives -- and it's certainly not a reason often cited among actual football fans for their distaste for Tebow. I hear more about Tebow's faith in a critical OR a positive sense (aside from joke memes like "Tebowing", that is) from politically-aligned non-sports fans than any sports fans. There are a lot of very religious people in the NFL, the reason Tebow is in the news is because he makes the games exciting.

    I do not currently have an opinion (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by CST on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:58:57 PM EST
    on Tebow at all.

    Ask me again in a few weeks after he either loses to the pats like all good opposing quarterbacks should do, or he beats the pats like only truly evil descendents of the devil would do.

    My sports love/hate is easy.  You play for my team, I love you.  You play for an opposing team, and whether I like you or not has a direct relationship to whether your team has recently beat mine or not.  Beyond that, I don't care if you pray to Jesus or Allah or Zeus.

    I confess to prejudice against holy rollers (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:05:51 PM EST
    When he was a Gator I had no opinion about him until I became aware of the public displays of piety, as someone above called them.

    His evangelicalism directly conflicts with my 'keep it to yourself' attitude about religion. There is no way to resolve the conflict. If he is going to keep talking about the sky god, I'm not going to like him.

    I'm trying to remember if Hugh Jackman's (none / 0) (#92)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:12:33 PM EST
    show included anything religious with a capital R.  

    Tebow's faith, and who is pushing the issue (none / 0) (#93)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:15:48 PM EST
    You should have more of a problem with ESPN, CBS, and the rest of the sports media than Tebow at this point. Mostly Tebow just thanks God/Jesus once in the post-game interviews (very common among all sports players) and he also thanks his defense and the whole team.

    It's really the journalists who make this issue so omnipresent for whatever reason -- "are people talking about Tebow's faith too much? We'll discuss that topic for 2 hours next on Sportscenter!"

    It's the broadcasters who proactively cut to the sideline to show him "Tebowing" (he rarely does it in the end zone right after a score while the camera is on him), Tim Tebow isn't in the producer's booth.

    Tebow's faith is one of those things that everyone thinks everyone else thinks about and finds important, and so it gets a lot of attention that isn't warranted (parallels with T-Paw's doomed candidacy).


    Very good point. I 100% agree (none / 0) (#113)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 05:48:00 PM EST
    they are very good at taking anything I either don't mind, or even like, and beating it to death until i can't stand it. Pretty much what they have done to me with sports in general.

    Three Things (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:25:10 PM EST
    1. Not being a Tebowmaniac does not make one a Tebow hater.

    2. As a Packer fan, I hate the Broncos, and any dipsh*t QB that brings them wins.  The hate is not specific to one man, 53 plus staff, a good majority of fans, and anything Shanihan.

    3. Why does everything Tebow come with a big frosty glass of religion, can't I just hate the Broncos w/o it involving faith, or rather my lack of it.

    As a football fan, I like and appreciate a come-back, as mentioned earlier, I like watching Tebow play, but now it's turning into this, "If you don't love him, you are a hater" non-sense.

    So maybe all the hype is turning me into a Tebow-hater, but I don't think so, there very few players I dislike, certainly non that I hate specifically.  But I do hate teams, and the players on those teams.  

    This non-sense is making my hatred of the Broncos more severe, and I am positive, in a month I will hate them even more then the Bears, my lifetime long enemies.  

    The religious idiots are starting to hijack a player, and using Palin like taunting to push their agenda, which is god loves a player or a team more then others because one guy likes to pray and was home schooled.

    Looking forward to watching the team collapse, not because of Tebow, but because it will end this non-sense and put a bunch of meat-heads back in their cages.


    If you don;t see the Tebow hatred (none / 0) (#151)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:00:59 PM EST
    then really it's because you don't want to see it.

    It is obvious.


    Interesting thread to me, (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 06:23:30 AM EST
    as someone who doesn't keep up at all on football, and knows very little about the current Tebow phenomenon.

    What I did learn from this thread is that I think military tracy must be my long lost soul sister. Ha.

    I do remember the commercial issue and the Focus on the Family stuff -- and, frankly, that's enough for me to put him on my sh!t list.

    I'm not a Tebow hater - I don't know enough (none / 0) (#2)
    by Farmboy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:24:40 PM EST
    about him to even generate a mild distaste. But as a Christian, I find it ludicrous that people think God determines the outcome of sporting events by rewarding one team over another because they have more faith or prayed harder.

    As I asked in another thread, should the Vikings be punished in some old-Testament fashion for their lack of faith?

    Or was it simply that when the clock ran out, one team had earned more points than the other team, and God had nothing to do with it, other than sitting back on His celestial Barco-lounger with a beer to watch the game with the rest of us?

    I doubt that anyone thinks (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:36:29 PM EST
    that God is helping Denver, or Tebow.

    Or at least anyone rational.

    I do believe that Tebow's persona as a believer does make some people uncomfortable and people will always take a negative position against whatever/whoever makes them uncomfortable.

    Persona as a believer? (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:40:35 PM EST
    Oh...it's much more than that.  When you and your mother become the poster children for Focus on the Family, they made their bed.  Why should I feel sorry for what they have to lie in now?  This was the mortgage they took out Jim.  It was their choice to do all that, not mine.

    As the complete agnostic that I am (none / 0) (#9)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:52:58 PM EST
    could you tell me whats wrong with THIS COMMERCIAL, other than maybe being really corny. In the Seinfeld age, it was a commercial about nothing.

    What she is talking about (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:02:59 PM EST
    Almost losing him....she claims that her doctor tried to make her have an abortion because she took flagyl.  There are no records.  There is no significant evidence either that it can cause birth defects in human babies.  There was some study in rats indicating that in giant doses there could be a problem.  Her story about how she "almost" lost him is B.S.  As a feminist, it is to me a filthy B.S. too.  She is entitled to it though, and I'm entitled to feel how I feel about how she chose to USE her sons talents to feed lies and bullhonk.

    You obviously (none / 0) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:18:49 PM EST
    watched a different Super Bowl.

    I read her story (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:26:29 PM EST
    Feminist groups caused them to make certain that the super bowl ad left her "story" out of the ad, but she broke the story when the ad was announced.  A couple of OB/GYNs went on the record saying that flagyl was not dangerous as she was attempting to say that it was.  People asked for her medical records to back her story up, her physician who tried to make her abort Tim, the whole nine yards.  Her first generation of selling her son's talent though was that doctors told her she had to abort him, and she didn't and look what God gave us....Tim Tebow.  This whole event was huge for me, it was going on long before the ad hit the airwaves.

    That's (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:48:01 PM EST
    my problem with him too. If he hadn't done that commercial and alligned himself with the odious FOF I would have nothing to say about him because I could care less about football.

    They had to leave the details out ... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:59:40 PM EST
    ... of the story in order to get it approved for airing by the network, although she did a follow up video with Dobson explaining the story in detail.  It was posted on the FOF website that was referenced at the end of the ad that aired.

    Interesting article about her story and placental abruption, the condition she says she had during her pregnancy.


    What you are doing is (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:02:07 PM EST
    claiming that his mother lied.

    And of course the Super Bowl commercial had nothing in it re flagyl and nothing about her Doctor trying to make her have an abortion.

    Perhaps you are referring to another commercial that you can link us to?


    No one is asking (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:36:18 PM EST
    you to feel sorry for them.

    But I do see you as one of the uncomfortable ones.

    And FOTF predates Tebow by years and yeas.


    Yes, FOTF predates Tebow (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:43:06 PM EST
    and then he used his celebrity to promote them.  He made his bed in Colorado.  Maybe it will help him grow up a little bit in certain areas, because his parents aren't going to help him.

    yes (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:49:06 PM EST
    it does predate Tebow but Tebow chose to align himself with them did he not? This is the same organization that was selling tape that Ted Bundy made.

    GA (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:31:16 PM EST
    The tape was the last, and I think only, interview Bundy did.


    The link is 30 minutes. I don't know if that is the total interview or an edited one.

    Just curious, why do you have a problem with Dobson interviewing Bundy??


    Because (none / 0) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:27:50 PM EST
    the scum bag was selling those tapes for money at one time.

    Well, I don't see how (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 11:18:33 PM EST
    that would be illegal or immoral.

    Is it the content that bothers you? If so, what is it that does so?


    You don't (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 07:04:48 AM EST
    think there's anything wrong with making money off of a serial killer? I think it's a pretty low down thing to do when Bundy killed 30 women. But then FOTF never has been a friend to women anyway.

    So you condemn (none / 0) (#182)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 08:53:40 AM EST
    everyone who writes an article, a book or movie/TV special about serial killers?


    "Attention! Attention!

    Will all those who wrote/acted/opined about "The Green River Killer" please report to the office condemnation proceedings!"

    We'll get to all the others at a later time....

    Should it be Sharon Tate or....?


    Did the serial (none / 0) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:02:06 AM EST
    killer star in those movies? No, and apparently you have no sympathy for the victims of Ted Bundy. Anne Rule writes about true crime but it's always from the victims standpoint not to "romanticize" the serial killer like Dobson. Dobson promotes the serial killer while Rule gets the story of the victim out there but I guess you fail to see the difference.

    Quit changing the subject (none / 0) (#193)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:09:19 AM EST
    You go after Dobson because he interviewed Bundy and then sold (made money) off the DVD.

    That's no different than what Ann Rule does.

    I think actually seeing the killer is more effective than reading about it or watching a "docudrama." You get a clear look at how casually evil he is and how we need to be watchful around strangers.

    And how did Dobson "romanticize" Bundy? Specifics please.

    And you might as well quit trying to bother me by making off the wall claims  by saying things like, "apparently you have no sympathy for the victims..." I'm not bothered and it just makes you sound irrational.


    It IS (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:34:33 AM EST
    different. You just fail to see the difference. There's no difference in your mind between celebrating the serial killer and telling the story of the victim.

    Dobson also was using Bundy to promote his agenda. I mean really is your agenda so bankrupt that you have to use a serial killer to promote it? Show me where Anne Rule does anything other than tell the stories of the victims???

    Are you freaking kidding about seeing the killer? The reason Bundy was able to do what he did was because he "looked normal" and used people's preconceived notions and stereotypes to his advantage.

    Dobson is a creep. You can continue to defend his junk if you want to. Whatever.


    Ga. No one is celebrating the serial (none / 0) (#205)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 12:12:51 PM EST
    killer. Where do you get such things?

    For whatever reason Bundy refused to be interviewed by anyone but Dobson. The interview showed us what Bundy looked like.

    It is important that we understand that evil exists in the world and that it comes not always as a raging killer that anyone can see but also as a thief in the night and that we must be prepared for that evil as well as the other.

    I ask you. Have you watched the interview?

    And if so what part of it was anti-female?? I saw nothing.

    Do I agree with everything Dobson has done? No. But I see no wrong in this.


    If God was helping Denver (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by rdandrea on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:48:30 PM EST
    Von Miller's thumb would have healed by now.

    Sounds about right.... (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:43:33 PM EST
    "uncomfortable" is the word...his faith on steroids makes me uncomfortable, just as a Tebow-type might be uncomfortable in my degenerate circles.

    And thats a good thing, it means we're free to make others uncomfortable.  

    As long as nobody is looking to criminalize or prohibit getting high on Jesus or reefer we're all good....oops! :)


    As long as I'm allowed to make (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:50:13 PM EST
    Tim Tebow and Tebow lovers uncomfortable, I'm fine with this situation.

    More than allowed... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:51:59 PM EST
    I might even say it is our obligation...I mean holy rollers are really beggin' for it sometimes:)

    I think so (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 01:55:38 PM EST
    Don't Holy Roll my kid in school, and don't brainwash young military officers (well, the second request is impossible).  But they won't be Holy Rolling my damned kid, and Mikey Weinstein will handle the rest of those b*st*rds :)

    What if true believers are true believers (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:02:16 PM EST
    in some part because of their physical brain structure? Perhaps it's genetic in some way?

    And, on another note, imo, extremists of all stripes are really beggin' for it - moonbats, wingers, the whole bunch...


    Guess what? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:06:32 PM EST
    It is part of my genetic structure to say, this the boundary, this is the line, stomp on my face and I will stomp back.  Hopefully I will genetically be able to do that twice as hard :)  Get your faith out of my schools and my uterus, understand that in the military there are boundaries where faith is concerned.  Don't respect that, you will hear from some of us that are genetically inclined :)

    Note to self: (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:37:04 PM EST
    When presenting alternate opinions to MT, preface them with "I am not stomping on your face when I say ....."

    How silly (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:56:50 PM EST
    Are you telling forced abortion lies shrouded in celebrity?  Are you making my gay children's lives hell?  Are you in my uterus?  Are you working to force Evangelical Christianity into my public school?  Are you preying upon my young, not yet mature adult, career military...working to "navigate" them and then cause them to violate military law and harass their fellow soldiers?

    Nope, I'm not doing any of that. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:08:33 PM EST

    Tebow is stomping on your face? (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:38:15 PM EST

    Come on, MT. Ya gotta be just looking for something to get upset about.



    When he promotes Focus on the Family (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:45:15 PM EST
    DO NOT THINK I will take part in any kind of promoting Tim Tebow moments....EVER...EVER...EVER.  I'm certain I'm hardly the only Coloradan that feels this way.

    MT, no one is asking you (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:49:47 PM EST
    to promote Tebow.

    I would like for him to gone from the (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:58:15 PM EST
    Denver Bronco team.  He is bad for the community and the creation of community.

    Obviously (none / 0) (#58)
    by rdandrea on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:07:19 PM EST
    People don't paint their houses orange and blue where you live.

    I was born there (none / 0) (#118)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:22:58 PM EST
    And I remember very well when the cops wore orange uniforms instead of the inmates, and people painted the three amigos on their house.  Obviously you ignore the feminists and liberal residents of Colorado Springs and Castle Rock.

    I have several friends in the Springs that are gay (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:51:33 PM EST
    as well.  If we were out on the town, you should see how adult gay people look when the Focus on the Family degayifiers walk into a club, they consider them predators.  I'm taking their word for it, they are predators who will cause young people who are not strong in themselves yet to be toxically ashamed of themselves and even suicidal when they haven't been successful at loving God enough to be degayified.  I loathe FOTF.  Being young and gay is very difficult, building a good support system is difficult if you don't have a supportive family.

    Well, that is your right (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:22:07 PM EST
    But Tebow also has rights.

    Do you claim that he has attacked gays?


    Yes I do (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:24:11 PM EST
    When he aligned himself with Focus on the Family, he did just that.

    No doubt.... (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:18:46 PM EST
    lord knows I beg for it on occasion...and I for one appreciate it, keeps me in check.

    All the world but me and thee? (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:31:33 PM EST
    I don't think it's anti-Tebow, or anti-religion as (none / 0) (#14)
    by steviez314 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:00:27 PM EST
    much as it is anti-football.

    Even most diehard secularist would think that, if he/she just happens to be wrong about the existence of God, that at least God would be rewarding the faith of doctors and scientists, not of football players.

    After reading "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People", I resigned myself to a god that does not get involved in day-to-day matters, but can be found in the kindness of neighbors, in the dedication of doctors and caregivers and the spirit of those who who are sick.

    I'd hate to think I was wrong, that God does get invloved more, but instead of curing cancer, he's got a football fantasy team.

    I think it's that concept of Tebow that gets people riled up.

    I disagree. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:07:53 PM EST
    In my experience the most vocal anti-Tebow folks are huge football fans, and they mostly seem upset because Tebow is making a mockery of the sport with his (to them) absurd success and popularity. For some reason Tebow was supposed to fail in the NFL, and more than that be DEFINED by his failure in the NFL, and it's been that way since he was at Florida -- and yet that didn't happen. So you have this frission in the sports community about what the failure of that predictive model actually means.

    Now, I'm not saying that people agree with the idea that God helps football players more than doctors, but I don't think that is what's behind the dislike of Tebow.

    It's like when Howard Dean was succeeding in the 2004 Democratic Primary. There was a great deal of public lashing out and bitterness from "the system" of people deeply involved in the "high church" of the party (e.g. the DLC).


    Addison: Your last paragraph (none / 0) (#77)
    by christinep on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    is worth pursuing more. The defense-of-the-system, defense-of-the-established-football-credo may in some way be involved in the emotional & controversial response to Tebow.

    I read the book (none / 0) (#157)
    by Madeline on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:20:48 PM EST
    "Bad Things Happen to Good People" and thought it very helpful.

    People like Tebow, who are overt (none / 0) (#18)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:05:14 PM EST
    in their expression of faith and who actually manage to live their faith, as well, sometimes act as a mirror in which others can see the lack of their own faith and the inferior quality of their own lives, and so...not liking what they see in that mirror, choose to direct their feelings not at themselves, but at the person they see as "making" them feel bad.  And while most of them will insist that it's patently ridiculous to think God is actually helping an athlete win football games, somewhere deep inside, I think they wonder - what if?  What if that is the reason?

    At my firm, which for many years was heavily Jewish, we had someone come in at the partner level who was Orthodox (he was with us for maybe three of four years and then left to go to another firm).  He prayed multiple times throughout the day, kept kosher and had eight children.  He was - and still is - an all-around good guy.  But there was a tension between him and the other Jewish partners that I believe stemmed from his observance of his faith: it made the others feel like he was a better Jew than they were, even though he never judged, never preached, never put anyone in a position of inferiority.

    I think this may be part of the anti-Tebow phenomenon, even though most people don't personally know they guy and don't have day-to-day interaction with him.

    Of course, it's just as likely that people don't like him because he wins, and would feel this way even if he were a bad-boy who flipped people off.

    tension ...stemmed from his observance of his faith: it made the others feel like he was a better Jew than they were
    That's the rub.

    Any belief, whether it's faith, politics, childraising, dog training, whatever, if your sense of self-worth comes from comparing yourself to others, there's always going to be someone who you will compare yourself to and feel diminished by the comparison.

    Of course, same goes with income, looks, style, etc.

    As someone once told me, don't compare your insides to other people's outsides...


    Mm... (none / 0) (#20)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:08:04 PM EST
    I dunno...is it the "shut up and play football" crowd that doesn't like Tebow?  I don't know that he's done any non-sports related commercials recently but people still remember that TV spot right?

    I think people just don't like politics and non-football related celebrity to mix with their football.

    1234 (none / 0) (#61)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:12:45 PM EST
    That is almost NEVER a reason given by (what I'll call) Tebow haters. It's a reason given by political people who don't watch a lot of sports. The reasons given by most Tebow haters are: (1) his fundamentals and mechanics are too weak to make it in the NFL for long, (2) the Denver Broncos have a great defense and Tebow-obsession is overshadowing them, (3) a truly good quarterback would win games in the 1st quarter, not the 4th, (4) he's a bad quarterback because he's a good running back.

    I disagree with these reasons, but they seem to be the ones brought up when criticizing Tebow.


    Not so sure on 1). (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:19:12 PM EST
    I read Siddhartha between when he decided to throw the ball and when it finally left his hand.

    I guess I meant (none / 0) (#64)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:20:28 PM EST
    I'm not sure I disagree with 1).

    Inside baseball, err, football... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:22:12 PM EST
    Still, for the time it takes him to throw he's not getting sacked more often than a lot of quarterbacks AND (more importantly) it appears to not be a big deal in terms of telegraphing throws to CBs or safeties in terms of interceptions. So is it ideal? Not really. But I view the criticism of his throwing mechanics as akin to a bunch of underpaid freelance graphic designers complaining about the font used in a million dollar logo than anything else.

    One might say he's not getting sacked more (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:31:33 PM EST
    because he's such a good athlete and maybe he's not intercepted more because he knows he has to throw to less-well covered recievers than most because of his release.

    Imagine him as he is now but with even just an average NFL release.

    imo, he's good now and also has a lot of upside potential...


    Can he be taught to pass? (none / 0) (#80)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:47:53 PM EST
    It is a little late.

    Don't they cover these things in Pop Warner?

    But, maybe, he was such a good athlete that no one tried to fix his pasing motion, thinking they should leave well enough alone....


    Improvement... (none / 0) (#81)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:51:16 PM EST
    Tebow was 10/15 last week, with a 149 passer rating.

    C'mon, he's that old of a dog. (none / 0) (#88)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:07:12 PM EST
    He's got to have some capacity for improving his skills.

    Oops, he's NOT that old of a dog. (none / 0) (#94)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:17:56 PM EST
    No credit to the O line? (none / 0) (#83)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:53:51 PM EST
    Absolutely, credit where credit's due. (none / 0) (#89)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:09:15 PM EST
    Imagine him as he is now, and with his O line, but with even just an average NFL release.

    Ain't that the truth (none / 0) (#75)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:42:23 PM EST
    What an ugly side-arm chuck.

    Someone mentioned Namath up-thread, and what mirror image opposites thery are:  one who had the most beautiful looking passes ever and a wild lifestyle, and the ohter who is all pious but has a wild passing motion......


    Snake Stabler was mentioned (none / 0) (#129)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 07:47:47 PM EST
    upthread also... he threw left-handed ducks all the time. Bobby Layne threw ducks. Joe Kapp threw ducks.

    A balanced team can live with ducks. Fans used to.

    It's all the fault of Joe Montana and that damm West Coast Offense!

    Whatever happened to three yards and a cloud of dust? Zone blocking? Sweeps? A running game?
    Leather Helmets? No forward progress? No substitutions?

    Ahh, the good old days...


    Yup - the old Bears game plan (none / 0) (#134)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:11:46 PM EST
    Payton left, Payton right, Payton up the middle.

    I use to love watching the pro game (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:11:48 PM EST
    But with the West Coast Offense, as you note, it's not as much fun to watch unless I'm a fan of that team.

    As a result, I watch less than I use to.

    ESPN has turned a million people who have never played into experts.

    It ain't all technical.


    They should go back (none / 0) (#171)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 11:27:14 PM EST
    to leather helmets.....it would help with the concussion problem.

    Tebow lovers make me laugh (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by ks on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:16:45 PM EST
    Root for the guy all you want but, the mania is ridiculous.  Tebow is a fad like the Wildcat offense.  Teams will adjust to the option based offense and that will be that.  There's been a nice confluence of events for Tebow in which he's played a key role but, the over the top reaction to him has been crazy.  

    The NFL purists are right.  That throwing motion is terrible and, unless he improves it, he won't be around for long, certainly not as a starter.  #2 is mostly right.  The Denver defense is hot right now though you can see how they will struggle without Miller and they are being overshadowed by Tebow mania.  They made the pick that won last week's game and have held other teams down so Tebow could pull his last minute magic.  But, who's really being overshadowed is the RB McGhee.  His resurgence has helped out as well.

    #3 is just a polite way of saying that Tebow has usually been terrible until the 4th which is mostly true.  The storyline has been - the offense struggled, the defense kept it close and Tebow finds a way in the end which is ok if you ignore things like the SD FG kicker missing two potential game winning kicks and the Vikes QB throwing an INT deep in his own territory with 1 min left in the game, etc. and credit it all to "Tebow magic".

    #4 is the line they use against all mobile QBs and it's kind of silly.

    Also, the idea that since Tebow doesn't get sacked much recently so that means his throwing motion isn't a problem is a bit off.  The not getting sacked thing is more a result of not throwing much at all rather than his throwing motion.


    We'll see. (none / 0) (#125)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 07:03:06 PM EST
    We'll see. Many particulars of the current criticism were also given as reasons why Tebow was going to fail right away, and why benching Orton was stupid. Now they're given as reasons why eventually he'll fail, even though he's getting better.

    We'll see if, in a year's time, Tebow is still winning games or not, and why. He'll probably settle down and have a record closer to .500 eventually (if Elway lets him start). But even if he's still winning games and developing as a QB people will shift the rationalization of their now-entrenched dislike. They'll say that his career will be shorter because he runs, or that wide receivers in Denver are underused, or that he can't win a Super Bowl. And then if he won a Super Bowl they'd say Denver won despite him. Etc. He made a mistake and surprised people who thought they knew the game inside and out, and they won't soon forgive him for that.

    Anyway: there's no end to the rationalizations you can introduce by focusing on the unknowable future, so I'm just looking at what he's doing now. I like what he's doing now and I like watching him play now. If that makes me a "Tebow lover", so be it.


    Tebow's not a rookie (none / 0) (#126)
    by ks on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 07:21:38 PM EST
    He was pretty mediocre, at best, right away last year.  He's riding a TEAM hot streak which, he has certainly contributed to, where all the breaks are falling the Broncos way and, to their credit, they are taking advantage of them but, to project Tebow all the way out to being a SB champion!!? is incredibly wishful thinking.  It's not like the Broncos are blowing teams out.  Even with "Tebow magic" they are barely eeking out dramatic wins.    

    We'll see what happens. (none / 0) (#130)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 07:48:45 PM EST
    As for the Super Bowl, I wasn't predicting he'd make it to the Super Bowl this season or ever. I think that's unlikely (as I said, I think he'll probably slide toward .500 if he plays enough games.) I was, in a discussion of what it would take to win over people who dislike Tebow, giving a hypothetical scenario for success and extrapolating it out to the ultimate success to argue that there will always be an anti-Tebow rationalization. It's interesting that you apparently find unacceptable a pure hypothetical involving success, even as you dish out hypothetical failures as if it was already 100% assured. Oh well. As I said before, we'll see. What happens will happen, but I enjoy what's happening.

    I disagree with this: (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:22:12 PM EST
    and Christians see themselves as eternally persecuted

    Also, if Tebow were a John Kerry type practicing Episcopalian, he wouldn't engender so much hostility.  But, he is a practicing evangelical, the son of missionaries to foreign lands.  

    He's aligned himself with Focus on the Family (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:33:00 PM EST
    and they violate other Coloradans boundaries all the time, and many of us have just flat out had it with all of them.

    I am a firm believe (although not (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:43:32 PM EST
    always a firm practicianer) of live and let live.  

    Me too (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:45:49 PM EST
    And Focus on the Family is not.

    Yman, you are really going to downrate me (none / 0) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:26:12 PM EST
    for this?  Have you ever lived in Northern Colorado Springs lately.  We a school teacher on here who posts from that area who has had the evangelicals yelling in her face about the lack of their religion allowed in her public school.

    Sorry, MT (none / 0) (#121)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:34:11 PM EST
    I had plugged in a "5", but sometimes I hit the arrow key to scroll when I'm using the laptop and it moves the dot across the numbers if I don''t click on the background, first.

    Not sure if I can change it, but I couldn't agree more.


    Sorry I'm so sensitive about FOTF (none / 0) (#195)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:14:35 AM EST
    I had one of those bumper stickers when we lived there that said "Focus on your own family" :)

    I thought (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:55:09 PM EST
    Kerry was Catholic.

    That's because (none / 0) (#49)
    by rdandrea on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:56:30 PM EST
    he looks "French."

    Ha. See how low key he'd be as (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 02:58:22 PM EST
    NFL quarterback.  You are correct.  

    You were correct, Ga6th (none / 0) (#82)
    by christinep on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:51:23 PM EST
    Full disclosure (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:44:26 PM EST
    I root for Tebow like I do all Gators (Noah, Horford, Brewer,  Percy, Grossman, Pouncey twins, Haden, etc.)

    I got to see Tebow's SEC act, (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 07:54:18 PM EST
    and i didn't like him then. Now? I don't care. It's a game. If people hang their hats on the outcome, and he's considered a superior being because he plays A GAME for a living, so be it.

    People have  a lot more to worry about, or they should. Militarization of police forces, authoritarian personalities in high positions, the war on drugs, the patriot act...

    It's kind of like arguing about the daytime Emmy's to worry about Tebow.


    Surprising comment from you (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:32:11 PM EST
    in that there are a lot more important things than SEC football too.

    Pretty snobby comment


    I said I don't care now! (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:43:24 PM EST
    When he was in the SEC it mattered.

    Pro football isn't important. (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:46:52 PM EST
    SEC football is more important than life.

    I guess this clarification was needed.


    What could be more important than (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:47:22 PM EST
    SEC football?

    Not much (none / 0) (#152)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:01:37 PM EST
    Giants? Yankees? (none / 0) (#172)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 11:41:21 PM EST
    As a fan of (fill in the blank) ... (none / 0) (#175)
    by cymro on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 01:09:07 AM EST
    ... you can keep 'em.  

    In my case, the blank is "Stanford, Cal, the 49ers, and the A's", but I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel the same way. You don't have to actually hate the teams mentioned above in order to be really tired of hearing about them, and tired of seeing them featured on TV. (Although, in the case of the Yankees, it's very hard to avoid hate altogether. Obviously I need to pray more  ;-).


    Riiiight. (none / 0) (#123)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:49:31 PM EST
    That's why we see all those posts on the non-Tebow Gators, huh?  

    I don't see you calling people haters if they think Grossman is a lousy NFL QB either.  


    Yep (none / 0) (#138)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:29:34 PM EST
    I never write about the Gators.

    Why not about Grossman? Because people aren't hating on him.

    I wrote about him plenty in 2006.


    Do you write about individual Gators? (none / 0) (#165)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:53:29 PM EST
    Two post in one day even?  

    Really?  Do you know any Redskin fans?  I do and they feel the same about Grossman as you do Orton.  

    2006?  Wow--impressive.  Were you even here in 2006?


    Sexy Rexy and his Dragon. (none / 0) (#167)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 10:03:57 PM EST
    I am a lifelong Redskins fan, have watched every single game this season from start to finish, and I've been a Rex Grossman supporter all season.

    When Grossman had his VERY bad game most people wanted to give Beck a shot (I wasn't one of them). But, as it turned out, Beck was pretty miserable and offered all of the downsides and none of the upsides of Grossman, who had gone 3-2 when he was pulled (Beck lost every single game). So while Rex almost certainly won't be starting next year, there was a reason he came back and most fans understand that and aren't really hating on him despite his obvious fault as a quarterback (i.e. the dragon). They just see him as another in a long line of mediocre journeymen who've washed up on the shores of the Potomac. This offer doesn't apply for DC sports radio.

    Just wanted to provide evidence of my existence as a Redskins-loving Rex Grossman supporter.


    He loves their Superstars (none / 0) (#189)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:15:10 AM EST
    Cue Molly Shannon

    That was obvious when he seemed to think that Abby Wambach was the only player on the U.S. women's soccer team :)


    And I forgive you (none / 0) (#188)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:09:21 AM EST
    That you cannot judge all men by the content of their character.  I forgive you :)

    Study Finds Racial Disparity in Treatment (none / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 04:44:45 PM EST
    of Athletes who Publicly Express Their Faith.

    OK, there is no study I'm aware of, however, I wonder if maybe it isn't true...

    I don't think it's too unusual to hear black athletes say "praise-y" things in post-win interviews and for it to not raise any eyebrows, but I really haven't noticed it much, if at all, with white athletes before Tebow, and look at response he's getting.

    Well (none / 0) (#133)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:00:05 PM EST
    Tebow has a history of going all out - remember the Bible verses he would put on his eye black?  And you have the proclamations of virginity, the national obsession over his virginity, the commercial, etc.  He's different.

    Chicken --> egg --> chicken (none / 0) (#135)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:12:17 PM EST
    Not entirely disagreeing with you, but you do have a "chicken/egg" thing here. Was there a media obsession on the bible verses and the (alleged) virginity because he was white? And would he have gotten a FOTF commercial if he was black and religious -- because there are a lot of religious black football players out there? I don't have an answer for any of this, nor do I think that Tebow was unduly punished for being white (he got opportunities for every criticism, I'm sure), but it's also true that Tebow appeared (to me, anyway) to get more attention to his beliefs from the get-go, and then it snowballed; so why did he get more attention from the get-go?

    Well with the media (none / 0) (#143)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:49:26 PM EST
    as the missionary/evangelical type, Tebow made an effort to get a message out there.  Consistently.  Plus if you were really going to make a comparison, you'd have to find a QB (as QBs generally get the most attention) on a primetime college football team who was also demonstrably religious.  And a virgin.  And black.  

    I really do think Tebow is more demonstrably religious than any other QB in the NFL though.  There might be some really religious DE on the Chargers for all I know, but that doesn't really count because he doesn't have the built-in platform of a QB.


    Not the virgin message (none / 0) (#150)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:59:56 PM EST
    He asnwered a question.

    Never spoke of it again.

    You need to be a little more factual.

    This is part of the hate imo.


    I don't think his message is (none / 0) (#153)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:09:28 PM EST
    "be a virgin" I think that people remember the fact because our media loves sex gossip, it's unusual, and while he may not bring it up others do, to poke fun at him or otherwise.  It is apparently of enduring fascination.

    "proclamations of virginity" (none / 0) (#156)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:18:23 PM EST
    was your phrase.

    My mistake then. (none / 0) (#158)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:31:59 PM EST
    Like I said I don't think that's "his message."  That one time he answered the question was very well publicized though.  In a limited way he "came out" (surely better to be a virgin than gay in the NFL still though).

    NCAA instituted (none / 0) (#159)
    by Madeline on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:32:13 PM EST
    the Tebow Rule; no more black verses under eyes.

    NFL also has the same rule.


    Interesting. (none / 0) (#173)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 11:45:44 PM EST
    I do think it would be difficult to find someone more overtly religious in the NFL than Tebow.  I don't think he is non-consenting to that part of his identity (and I think I follow the NFL differently than the "haters," I don't hate Tebow and Tebow's success does not mean anything one way or another to me, unless he gets traded to one of my NFC East rivals).  He and the media feed off of one another, I think.  May not be the case in the NFL as much as in college.  Most of my comments are going off watching him in Florida.

    I don't mind Tebow's expressions of faith and in fact would welcome acceptance of Tebow's religiosity if it opened a space for athletes of other religions or orientations.  Alas the "L" in NFL isn't for "liberal" and it is all too often seems an uphill battle to get anything worthwhile that falls into the category of empathy done.


    Ray Lewis, for one... (none / 0) (#176)
    by Addison on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 01:29:32 AM EST
    Here are some excerpts from a 2006 Sports Illustrated article about Ray Lewis:

    "God has done something in my life -- and not just for me to see it," Lewis says softly. Then his eyes flash, and he starts shouting, pointing. God has done something in my life for ev-ery hat-er, ev-ery enemy.... " A noise -- "whooooaaa!" -- rises out of the rows at the Empowerment Temple in northwest Baltimore, like the roar of an ocean wave gathering itself to crest. "... every person who said I wouldn't walk or ever play again!"

    For when you ask him, and often when you don't, Lewis will tell you these days that he's "anointed," that he enjoys "favor," that he is a "king" charged with fostering a national ministry on the order of Martin Luther King Jr. and that, once football is done, his mix of piety and street cred... will drag even the most hardened hearts to the light.

    Lewis says he's all about love, but when he talks about the Fulton County prosecutor, the former Atlanta mayor, the people who tried to send him to jail? Then he goes all Old Testament, his love full of loud and righteous fury. "The battle is: Am I O.K.?" Lewis is telling the crowd. "Even though I was persecuted, crucified.... Am I O.K.? Let me give you a quick read-back on me, Church..."


    Tebow has not ever gone THAT far.

    The SI article created some waves at the time of course, but nothing like the extended navel-gazing Tebow's faith has provoked. Why not? Was it expected out of Ray Lewis for some reason? Certainly the context of Ray Lewis' case was at least as outsized as Tebow's and his declarations of faith (as you can see yourself) were incredibly bold and aggressive. According to Ray Lewis, God actively seeks to humiliate people who mess with Ray Lewis -- this is way past Tebow's vocal gratitude.

    Ray Lewis is still in the league, still praying before every game, still bringing up God in the same way. Here's what he said LAST MONTH, in response to the question, "describe what this moment is like":

    You know, last night man was just so awesome. You know, because as a team, I just kept pouring my heart out to him. About positioning yourself. You know, position yourself, so when God gets ready to pour out his blessings, that you are in position to receive those blessings. And as a team, we positioned ourselves. Keep fighting, keep fighting, keep fighting for 60 minutes. And when Torre (Smith) dropped a couple passes I just kept going to him and saying "It's His will. Let His will be done. And just to win this game the way we did man, you know what, we respect that team (the Steelers) to the utmost, but I'll tell you, to come win this game the way we did today, it's just awesome. God is amazing.

    Where were the 5,000 word essays on THAT, huh? So Ray Lewis clearly thinks God is out to get his enemies, and he routinely links God directly to not only his good fortune as a Christian, but his play on the field as a football player and/or prophet, or whatever he thinks he is. Again, this is all somewhat beyond where Tebow goes with his more general gratitude to Jesus.

    But, yeah, Tebow's the Jesus freak of the NFL...


    Racial disparity. (none / 0) (#191)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:55:25 AM EST
    Well, the 5000 word essays (none / 0) (#192)
    by lilburro on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:04:14 AM EST
    are apparently in Sports Illustrated, 2006.

    Lewis' faith was not part of his "brand" from the beginning, apparently it emerged midway during his NFL career.  Plus as the article says he was investigated three times for assault and he was convicted of obstruction of justice.  Faith as redemption is not as novel as I suppose and could invite more cynical interpretations.

    Tebow's faith was part of his entry onto the national scene.  It's been there for the entirety of Tebow's "cultural lifespan."  He has apparently conducted himself according to his faith since his entry into the public eye.  Some of the fascination has to be waiting for him to "slip up."

    I also think our mostly white media identifies more strongly with white expressions of religiosity.  I still think Tebow's a unique case all in all.


    I Started Tebow (none / 0) (#115)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 05:58:45 PM EST
    and rode his streak to the playoff this year despite starting 0-5.

    The man walks on water.

    He walks on doodles (none / 0) (#187)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:08:22 AM EST
    Dog doodles!

    When Kurt Warner... (none / 0) (#122)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:40:40 PM EST
    ...thinks he ought to tone down the godbothering, you know its a bit over the top.  

    If I'm a "hater" because I don't think he's qualified for the job of starting NFL QB or will ever lead this team to a Lombardi trophy, than so be it.  But, that makes an awful lot of people around here Obama haters.  

    There's a lot of hate in that comment (none / 0) (#149)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:58:40 PM EST
    What's your view of Colt McCoy BTW.

    Oh do tell! (none / 0) (#162)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:43:36 PM EST
    PS--Why on Earth would I care about Colt McCoy?  Did the Bronco's sign him to the squad and I missed it?  You do know where I live, right?

    The rest of the country doesn't care about Tebow (none / 0) (#136)
    by LuigiDaMan1950 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:16:47 PM EST
    I hate the Broncos because John Elway stuck it to my Browns way too many times.  And Klosterman was a lousy columnist for the Pee Dee here in Cleveburg for three years when he was a little goat kid from North Dakota.  His writing showed illogical logic then and he hasn't improved. I only wish we had a team that would win seven in a row in any sport.  Instead, I have to come here to read a bunch of whiners from the frozen tundra state crying in their snowboards about their Christian quarterback.

    Give me a break.

    But you hate the Broncos (none / 0) (#147)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:56:52 PM EST
    Funny as sh8t.

    public displays (none / 0) (#137)
    by womanwarrior on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:24:07 PM EST
    I hope this isn't too off topic and I don't know if it has been discussed before, but what is this big prissy thing about not allowing people to celebrate when they catch a pass or make a touchdown?  And why does it always seem to be enforced against young black super athletes?  

    Am I nuts to think that if people can publicly pray after a win that people should be able to publicly celebrate?  Did something get out of hand that I missed or are the powers that be of big football trying to keep minority athletes in their place? Maybe I just seem to like arrogant a**holes who are really great players?  

    But I do think there is something blasphemous about thinking that God is responsible for a team winning a football game.  But the Irish at Notre Dame seemed to think so.  I think of the Creator as more focused on bigger stuff, somehow.  

    Just asking. I am ready to be enlightened.  

    And look where it's been getting (none / 0) (#144)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:50:04 PM EST
    Notre Dame football recently.  

    Where does this sh8t come from? (none / 0) (#146)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:56:16 PM EST
    "I do think there is something blasphemous about thinking that God is responsible for a team winning a football game."

    BTW, I love the "blasphemous" bit.


    Blasphemy is spiking the ball on the Star (none / 0) (#174)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 11:46:19 PM EST
    Tell me, did your love of Gators ever make you root for the Cowboys to win when Emmitt was carrying the ball?

    I rooted for Emmit (none / 0) (#190)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:41:20 AM EST
    I don't like Tebow for two reasons. (none / 0) (#161)
    by observed on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:36:30 PM EST
    1. He's an idiot
    2. He's almost ugly.

    The first is obviously related to his religious views, but the second is not. The second really bothers me. I like HOT athletes.

    Now wait a minute! (none / 0) (#164)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:46:26 PM EST
    He scored a 22 on the Wonderlic. Lower than the average quarterback (though higher than Marino, McNabb, and numerous others) but equal to the average score of a bank teller.

    "Smart as a bank teller" (none / 0) (#168)
    by observed on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 10:23:01 PM EST

    Well, I think that's not so bad at all. (none / 0) (#169)
    by Addison on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 10:25:58 PM EST
    But....He's an underwear model! (none / 0) (#186)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:06:43 AM EST
    "Tebowing" (none / 0) (#183)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 08:57:35 AM EST
    A Mass. high school football quarterback was penalized for "Tebowing" in the state championship game.  He raised his fist on a touchdown run in the 4th quarter, and it cost them the game.  His father said he was "thanking his Lord" by raising his hand.

    Seems really excessive, but apparently it was in accordance with their zero-tolerance approach to taunting/celebration.

    Also (none / 0) (#194)
    by lilburro on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:12:22 AM EST
    do you really think people are going to care as much about Tebow a year from now?  Assuming the Broncos are not going to be undefeated from now until his retirement, I think people will eventually calm down.

    My congratulations BTD (none / 0) (#204)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 12:09:30 PM EST
    It used to take a Hillary post to garner 200 comments. Timmy is the newest "stir it up" at TL star. Never did I think we could get Ted Bundy into a Tebow thread but we did it.

    I'll just quote two Minnesota Vikings after their loss last week. Who better to listen to than the opposition.

    Jared Allen - "I mean, the dude lit us up. I would have bet my paycheck that he would not have beat us passing the ball"

    Percy Harvin - "When I hear all those ESPN commentators say, 'He can't do this,' I laugh. After the game, I whispered in his ear, 'Let 'em keep hating. Keep 'em hating on you.' "