Sunday News and Open Thread

The New York Times has an article with more details on the secret Office of Legal Counsel memo on targeted killings. Dated June, 2010, after Anwar al-Awlaki was put on the capture or kill list, ran some 50 pages, and was principally authored by Marty Lederman and David Barron. According to the Times,

The memo, however, was narrowly drawn to the specifics of Mr. Awlaki’s case and did not establish a broad new legal doctrine to permit the targeted killing of any Americans believed to pose a terrorist threat....The memorandum is said to declare that in the case of a citizen, it is legally required to capture the militant if feasible — raising a question: was capturing Mr. Awlaki in fact feasible?

Good read: Glenn Greenwald on Steve Jobs and America's drug policy, focusing on Steve Jobs' use of LSD and DOJ's ramped up war on Calfornia dispensaries.

October 10 is the 9th annual World Day Against the Death Penalty. There are 3,200 people on death row in the U.S.

There is no humane way to kill a human being, and this practice of killing to set an example that killing is wrong must end.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Breaking Bad Finale: Who Survives? | House Comm. to Subpoena Holder Over "Fast and Furious" >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    How much money have we spent (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by MO Blue on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 03:30:28 PM EST
    so far in Iraq?

    Iraq sides with Iran, not U.S., on Syria

    WASHINGTON -- More than six months after the start of the Syrian uprising, Iraq is offering key moral and financial support to the country's embattled president, undermining a central U.S. policy objective and raising fresh concerns that Iraq is drifting further into the orbit of an American archrival: Iran.

    Well, heck, our money (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Zorba on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 04:27:02 PM EST
    just doesn't go as far as it used to does it?  (/snark)

    Heh. I'd bet it's our money they're using. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 06:46:39 PM EST
    Arthur Brisbane, the NYT public editor, (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 03:49:06 PM EST
    also addresses "The Secrets of Governmental Killing" in his column. He starts with the question, "Who can't America kill?" brought into focus with the  drone attack on Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen.  Mr. Brisbane notes that there remains no clear accounting of the legal principles or the process the executive branch is applying to support its actions.

    The administration invokes secrecy to shield the details while simultaneously deploying a campaign of leaks to build public support.  As public editor he admonishes his paper to do more to "pierce the veil"--not to expose operational details that would jeopardize national security, but to force accountability over issues like the legal rationale.  The government's exuberance in talking, he continues, strictly on its own terms, is a provocation that must be answered.

    Considering That (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by The Maven on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 03:50:06 PM EST
    several reports in the aftermatch of the Awlaki killing had indicated that a "backup" option was to send in a detachment of Marines(?) by helicopter, it sure seems as though the operational decision was to try to achieve a "clean kill" first and only think about a possible capture as a less-attractive alternative.  

    Had Awlaki ended up alive and in U.S. custody, it would have become difficult, if not impossible, for the administration to keep his case out of the courts.  And one thing we know about the Obama administration is that they have contempt for and fear the rule of law and civilian courts as much as the prior one did.

    Congress scheduled to pass (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by MO Blue on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 05:25:50 PM EST
    Obama's trade deals.

    The House and Senate are poised to move with lightning speed this week to approve three trade deals with South Korea, Colombia and Panama submitted just last week by President Obama. link

    See Congress can move with lightning speed when legislation receives Chamber of Commerce approval.

    Job creation at its best. Oh, wait.

    The Economic Policy Institute estimates that the Korea-U.S. agreement would worsen our trade deficit with Korea by $13.9 billion over the next seven years. Rising Korean imports would displace approximately 888,000 U.S. jobs over this same time. Taking into account all the products we trade with South Korea -- exports and imports -- the proposed trade agreement would result in a net loss of 159,000 jobs.

    Similarly, the U.S. International Trade Commission predicts that jobs would be lost in high-wage industries, such as electronic equipment, motor vehicles and parts, and other transportation equipment, with deficits for these sectors totaling up to $1.8 billion. link and link  

    Remember (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by lentinel on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 05:39:21 PM EST
    when Obama "joked" about using a predator drone to kill the Jonas Brothers?

    Two words for you: predator drones. You will never see it coming. You think I'm joking?"
    Obama - May 1, 2010


    He wasn't joking.

    GIVE IT BACK!! (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by NYShooter on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 10:47:08 PM EST
    Not that they asked, but if the OWS folks want a slogan, that's it.

    I've been wondering since the beginning of the economic disaster why the central point of our discontentment, that the criminal slime on Wall Street, in cahoots with the even more criminal slime in Washington, put a gun to our heads and stole trillions and trillions of our dollars.

    You may think that's a little over-the-top hyperbole, but I don't think so. Much smarter people than me have used the term, "criminal," to describe what they've done.

    In any event, there may be a tiny ray of sunshine beginning to leak through. I've seen talk of "claw back" here and there, whereas up till now that idea wasn't even in anyone's wettest dream.

    I mean, that is the problem, isn't it? THEY screwed up; THEY grabbed OUR money to make up THEIR losses; THEY ended up richer and more powerful; and WE ended up poorer, losing our jobs, our homes, and our security.

    What could be simpler? Just give us our money back, leave town, and don't ever let us see your lying, greedy, pig-snout faces ever again. If you don't do it voluntarily we'll hunt you down,  wherever your private jets take you, every last one of you,  and we'll send you to a place that, believe me, you don't want to go.

    No need for a Harvard MBA to understand that, is there?

    OccupyWall Street publishes a newspaper. (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by caseyOR on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 03:01:15 AM EST
    OWS has now put out two issues of its newspaper. Yves Smith at Naked Capitalism has kindly posted both issues at her site. Go on over and read.

    I doubt very much this will quiet the critics or bring relief to the "what do they want?" crowd.

    Curious (none / 0) (#5)
    by bocajeff on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 04:50:48 PM EST
    What is the Secretary of States view on this matter? Traditionally the relationships between countries falls under that job description. Can someone please provide a link of disagreement.

    Glenn Greenwald and the War on Drugs (none / 0) (#8)
    by womanwarrior on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 06:07:10 PM EST
    Anyway to make that one viral?  Just wish that our legislators could spend some time looking at this as a way to save some of that money making government run a deficit?  What happened to Senator Webb?  Did he have a Governor Morris (Ides of March) moment or something?  

    Dadler the freeroll poker savant strikes again (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 07:57:54 PM EST
    I just won a $4500 package, including a seat in the World Poker Tour even in Jacksonville in November.  Ridiculous.  I had to win the tourney to win the seat.  More than 2000 people entered.  And Dadler, who plays under the name Roy L Phlush, beat them all.  Holy effin' sheet, what am I going to do now?

    Jeff???  PPJ???

    Stay tuned...

    and this was LEGAL online poker, btw (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 07:59:52 PM EST
    ClubWPT dot com, club poker, subscription, whatever they call it, you pay twenty bucks a month to have a chance to win pennies mostly, but sometimes they have big stuff at stake.  Like this.



    So, are congratulations in order? (none / 0) (#12)
    by caseyOR on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 08:10:00 PM EST
    You seem conflicted. So, I am unsure whether or not this is a good thing, Dadler. Still, $4500 is nothing to sneeze at. So, I'm going to go with "Congratulations, Dadler, nice job."

    Thanks, it's all good (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 08:30:24 PM EST
    I'm just an idiot with the poker freebies.  Last year I turned a few free bucks into many thousands in the bank, and this was pretty much a freebie too.  Hope it expenses out okay, don't want to end up losing money on the deal, but I could quite easily.  Knock on felt.

    Maybe I should learn how (none / 0) (#17)
    by caseyOR on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 08:37:37 PM EST
    to play poker. Being Irish maybe some luck will be with me if I take up the game. I could certainly use the money if I were to win anything.

    How hard would it be to learn to play poker well?


    I still think I stink (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 09:12:06 PM EST
    But I have inferiority issues.  ;-)  I wrote about my crazy online run last year.  Here's the link to it.

    $0 to $10,000 Faster Than Jesus (LINK)


    Congratulations (none / 0) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 08:23:39 PM EST
    A little confused about what all you actually won but congratulations anyway.

    What I won & conflict (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 08:28:12 PM EST
    I won a $3500 entry into the World Poker Tour Main Event in Jacksonville, and a thousand bucks in travel/spending money.  All great.

    Conflict.  Regardless of whether I win money in the Jacksonville tourney, I have to pay taxes on that forty-five grand.  And, since I'm coming from San Fran and will need to book at least three nights in a hotel (which I may not need if I get bonked out the first day of the tourney), and that thousand bucks will probably not quite cover my expenses, I dunno, we'll see.

    But, yes, I'll take congrats.  I had to beat a few thousand other people, never a bad feeling.


    Ah, it is starting to make sense. (none / 0) (#16)
    by caseyOR on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 08:34:53 PM EST
    If you decide not to go to this tourney in Jacksonville, and, thus, do not use either the entry fee or the travel $$, are you still liable for taxes on the $4500?

    Problematic, yes, but still pretty cool. And maybe your luck will hold, and you win big in Jacksonville (and properly pay all taxes due.)


    I have no doubt they report it (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 09:09:51 PM EST
    And there's no way I wouldn't go, I can get there and back on a grand, just hoping I can get cheap lodging.

    Congrats! (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:34:57 AM EST
    TY, my man (none / 0) (#40)
    by Dadler on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 10:28:00 AM EST
    Gonna have to head down to Colma for sure now, to get some live tourney experience under my belt.

    That's a good idea (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 10:59:40 AM EST
    You will find the live tournaments are much different from I think on line ones are. I don't know what they have a "Lucky Chances" but "Bay 101" in San Jose is only 45 minutes away.

    I think the biggest difference will be the interchange between players and the importance of "tells" in a live game. Mike Caro has a book, can't remember the name, that you may want to read.

    BTW - They will issue you a 1099 for all winnings. You will need to attach it/them with your FIT filing. I assume ClubWPT will send you one. Consult a tax accountant with experience in gambling wins/losses for details.


    Thanks again (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 02:29:17 PM EST
    Last year, when I won my little bundle online, we had to go through the whole tax issue with it, but it wasn't that big a deal it turned out.

    Lucky Chances has pretty large field tournaments during the week from what I've gathered.  I may hit the Bay 101, now that you mention it.

    As a guy with a B.A. in Theatre, whose parents were both actors when he was born, who did a good bit of acting and some standup himself, I'm pretty sure I'll be alright with the real live people, I'm naturally a chameleon anyway, so we shall see.  I'll look for that Caro book, too, but I'm not even thinking about poker for a week or so.



    Figured that was part of it (none / 0) (#18)
    by MO Blue on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 08:42:23 PM EST
    My questions may be really dumb but let's see if I can clarify this a little more. Is the $3,500 just an entry fee or does any of that go towards your table stakes? If you need additional table stakes, how much will you need to compete? Hope my terminology is correct and you understand my questions.

    Winning is a great feeling.


    3500 to enter the tournament (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 09:08:22 PM EST
    Everyone pays the same, or gets it paid for them if they win a satellite, like I did (most satellites cost money, tho, almost all of them, good money).  Not playing with real cash in a tourney, but tournament chips.  Just costs a lot to enter.

    When is this tourney? (none / 0) (#23)
    by caseyOR on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 10:08:37 PM EST
    Please let us know so that we can properly cheer you on to poker victory. Some of us here live vicariously on occasion, so we need to know. :-)

    Mid-November I think (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 10:17:37 PM EST
    I'll have to get a TL cap or something.  Represent, you know.

    "Wonderboy" Dadler... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 11:07:54 AM EST
    strikes again!

    The tax thang is no issue, just claim losses equal to your year's winnings.  Then get your arse over to Golden Gate and pick 5 grand worth of losing pony tickets outta the garbage can just in case the IRS decides to audit you.  Or losing scratch-offs, lottery tickets, etc.

    This is assuming your gonna cash in WPT Jax!  If ya don't, your receipt there will document a 35 hundo loss.


    Did anyone else witness (none / 0) (#22)
    by shoephone on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 09:45:02 PM EST
    the atrocious interview Leslie Stahl did with Jeffery Immelt on 60 Minutes? Wow. That woman should lose her license for practicing such an embarrassing display of kiss-his-butt journamalism.

    OWS Forever.

    60 Minutes is another former staple of (none / 0) (#24)
    by caseyOR on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 10:09:49 PM EST
    my life that has just turned to cr@p, like the NY Times. So, so sad.

    Good morning from the "Capital" (none / 0) (#27)
    by observed on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 10:48:06 PM EST
    of Central Asia (Astana translates to Capital).
    Things are going well here. I plan to try using my space-age Daewoo washer-dryer tonight for the first time. I will do whites in the first load, to be safe.
    I did get an English version of the manual, so I should be ok.

    Dining out is a bit pricier than I had anticipated, possibly because I am in the haute new area of town. Still, there are many cheap options, and plenty of places where you could get dinner and drinks (for 1) for prices less than comparable restaurants in the US.

    The cafeteria here serves good food. There are a lot of meat pies, many types of cabbage rolls, tasty soups ---of course sometimes borscht.
    There is a different cafeteria which has a Turkish chef and has wonderful food as well as delicious pastries.
    It's a good thing I am not a vegetarian (although I enjoy vegetarian cooking). It's even better than I do not have celiac disase. The breads here are very, very cheap and quite good, by the way.


    Did you make it to the concert? (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 11:19:17 PM EST
    OK. I missed some of your earlier comments. (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 11:24:55 PM EST
    You did!

    Oculus, (none / 0) (#30)
    by observed on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 11:36:02 PM EST
    I believe the operas are actually put on in the Pyramid, which is directly in front of my apartment (some operas are put on there, for sure). The "opera house" sounds more like a typical pop/rock concert venue.
    If I'm correct about operas being at the Pyramid, then even in -40 weather, I may be able to brave the cold to bring you a promised review.

    Speaking of cold, the locals have a very different relationship to cold weather than, say, New Englanders (an area I'm a bit familiar with).
    When the temperature is 40F and the wind is up, the security guards outside my building are well bundled up, and go "brr".
    I don't think you will find people in t-shirts doing outside chores when the temperature is 15-20F, like you might see in central Massachusetts after a cold snap, where 15 is balmy.
    These people seem to have the attitude that they don't want to experience cold at ALL.


    Sound like smart people to me (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by MO Blue on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 11:42:32 PM EST
    These people seem to have the attitude that they don't want to experience cold at ALL.

    15 degrees equals balmy and t-shirt weather? Not in my universe.


    as a New Englander (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by CST on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:42:30 AM EST
    I concur.  15 degrees?  In this city, with the wind that blows off the ocean it might as well be 5 degrees out, and you might as well be naked for the way that wind will cut through your clothes. That doesn't mean you don't try to stop it with a parka anyway.

    Although my dad does like to shovel snow in shorts and a T-shirt.

    But that's manual labor in the cold, very different from just hanging out.  And snow is more of a 20-30 degree phenomenon.


    Will be interested in your review of The (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 11:48:08 PM EST
    Pyramid and anything else you encounter.  BTW, a friend went on a textile-centric tour of Uzbekistan last center.  She found it super interesting.  Not just textiles.  Also history, archeology, etc.

    Yes, I've heard similar things about (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by observed on Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 11:53:40 PM EST
    Uzbekistan. Roughly speaking, the Uzbeks are the crafty, urbane traders and the Kazakhs the country bumpkins, historically.
    There is an Uzbek restaurant in town which is said to be very good.
    Oh, and I had spiced wine Saturday night including, among other things, barberries!
    People here seem to obsess about cleanliness. They are competitive with southern USA homemakers in that area.
    Once I get paid (not until next month because of lots of  more paperwork, setting up bank account, etc.), I will start hiring a housekeeper. That is third on my list, with first being a black leather jacket, and second being the super-duper humidifier.

    You are a fearless adventurer. (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 12:14:11 AM EST
    I need some math help here.  Tutoree's second science fair involves parachutes.  I know how to calculate the area of a circle.  But do I figure out how to make a circle 1/2 the area of the larger circle?  (I should be able to figure this out, but am stumped.  Tutoree probably already has the answer!)  Thanks.

    Divide the radius by (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by observed on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 12:17:03 AM EST
    the square root of 2.

    I found an on line calculator at (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 12:19:19 AM EST

    OWS participant on This Week (none / 0) (#41)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 10:35:46 AM EST
    A kossack participant in OWS was interviewed on This Week's panel discussion yesterday and did an excellent job. Nice summary on firedoglake. I think his name was DeLaka or something like that.

    If you can fine a video, do. The visible reaction of the panel to his statement that he is the only working class person to be found on Sunday morning TV was really eye-opening. Donna Brazile, Matt Dowd, and George Will really seem to think they are 'of the people'. The kossack was such a stark contrast to their load of pre-canned BS it was a joy to behold.

    From a commenter on FDL (none / 0) (#43)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 11:01:36 AM EST
    Yep- His name is Jesse LaGreca and he blogs at DailyKos under the handle of "Ministry of Truth" and people refer to him shorthand as MoT.

    I have read his posts at Kos. Really glad Amanpour's people found him, however it happened. He wisely insisted he is not a 'spokesman' for OWS -  no one person is - but he certainly did a good job.


    His name is Jesse LaGreca (none / 0) (#44)
    by MO Blue on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 11:02:48 AM EST
    IIRC his DKos user name is MinistryofTruth.

    Alan Grayson did a fine job of smacking done the idiots on the Bill Maher show also. Maher was almost as much of a horse's a$$ as his Republican panel members. The crowd's reaction through out the discussion was a clear indication of what position had their approval.  video


    Maher, Stewart and others' treatment of OWS.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 01:26:10 PM EST
    have been a clear example against the argument that their treatment of the tea party was especially harsh.