Wednesday Open Thread

It's a snowy, busy day here in Denver.

Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    The Democrats on the Super-duper (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 02:33:12 PM EST
    Committee to reduce deficits is reported to have offered a Grand Proposal similar to Obama's Grand Bargain with Boehner.  While the charge to the Committee is to come up with over $1.2 trillion by November 23, the Democrats' proposal ups the ante to about $3 trillion so as to slash the budget deficit really good.

    Details seem to have gone missing at this point, but the $3 trillion is to come from an equal mix of cuts and revenue increases--equal if you do not count the amount agreed to way back in August.  The cuts in Medicare are to be about $400 billion, one-half directly in benefits and one-half to health care providers.  These cuts are termed "savings," but increasing the eligibility age to 67 from 65 is not now part of the proposal.  The Republicans, apparently, do not like it, but maybe it can be pulled apart like the "jobs program" and voted on separately.   Some parts of it may get through that way, such as the cuts.

    This makes me feel physically ill (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by sj on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:23:39 PM EST
    Yeah, me too, sj (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:41:38 PM EST
    Tell me again why we voted for a "Democrat"?  Never again, not for me, at least, not any Democrats who do not act like real "Democrats."  Maybe that makes me arrogant, that I think that my definition of "Democrat" is the one that should apply.  And I recognize that many current Democrats do not agree, and are content to vote for what I consider to be the "Democrats in Name Only."  So be it.  That is their right.  If the Democratic Party has changed that much, then I'm not a Democrat.  There, I said it, and that's my right.  "I didn't leave the Democratic Party.  The Democratic Party left me."

    I'm pretty sure (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by sj on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:00:14 PM EST
    That we would agree on the definition of a real Democrat.

    Yes, the party left me.


    I Have Come to the Same Conclusion... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:41:51 AM EST
     ...for the most part, either the definition has changed or I have, don't care.

    It's so simple, I want a party/person who puts the welfare of the little person first, the 99.99% that can't afford to buy a political party.  From the poorest of the poor to people people making a comfortable wage.

    We already have a party for The Corporation, bought by The Corporation, having two is not only redundant, it has left the rest of us without representation.

    Every issue that I care about boils down to that, and if the democrats can't manage to not be bought by special interests, they should save all a lot of head/heart ache and just move over to where they belong.  Then the people who care about human welfare can battle with the corporate interests and at the very least, give us all a fighting chance.

    Now it seems like Corporate America wins and we lose lose regardless of who's running the show, the difference being the degree in which we lose.

    What scares the S out of me, is we haven't had a major election post-Citizens case, well we have, but not close enough for Corporate America to really sit down and strategize/organize their newly found citizenship rights.  This next election I fear is going to be a landslide against real live human beings, and a huge victory for the SCOTUS's defined citizens.

    As a the song goes:

    B-B-B-Baby, you just ain't seen n-n-n-nothin' yet
    Here's something that you're never gonna forget

    Dems to Republicans (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by MO Blue on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:41:37 PM EST
    Please, please let us cut Social Security.

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congressional officials say Democrats on the so-called supercommittee are offering to slow the growth in future Social Security benefits as part of a multitrillion-dollar deficit-reduction package of increased tax revenue and cuts in spending. link

    Dems to Seniors: The New Democratic Party doesn't need your votes. So, there.


    So the plan is to cut our (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:14:40 PM EST
    MC and SS?

    gosh, I feel so warm and fuzzy . . . .


    Maybe our social safety nets (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:22:29 PM EST
    will be saved by the Republicans---if the dreaded revenue enhancements are a package deal.  More irony than in a ton of liver.

    Yep (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:22:42 PM EST
    The corporations and the mega rich need more tax breaks and domestic programs and MC and SS benefits will be the offset.  

    Take a lead from Greece (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by NYShooter on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:59:56 PM EST
    while the Greeks have been showing their displeasure with the "austerity" that's being shoved down their throats (of course, the banks can't lose one red cent for causing the catastrophe) when they got to the part of raising the age limit for benefits to kick in they went crazy rioting in the streets.

    Let's see what happens here.


    Seems a tin-ear has been (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:21:31 PM EST
    surgically attached to Obama and the Democrats--what Occupy Wall Street?

    And, we need not be overjoyed (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:32:01 PM EST
    by the present report that Medicare eligibility age will not be changed.  It was not due to concern for workers as much as it was simple arithmetic put in the face of the brightest in the room--the "savings" were not what they were initially  cracked up to be: 65 and 66-years olds are relatively inexpensive to the program and the government losses two years of premiums.  So, more savings to be had by just cutting benefits to recipients  and cutting payments to providers, which, in turn, cuts benefits to recipients not to mention cuts to and overloads for, health care workers.

    An Honest Government - A Hopeful Future (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:05:32 PM EST
    "In the end, if the people cannot trust their government to do the job for which it exists - to protect them and to promote their common welfare - all else is lost."

    Barack Obama, University of Nairobi, August 28, 2006
    An Honest Government, A Hopeful Future


    Guess we would know more about (none / 0) (#22)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:08:20 PM EST
    what was going on with the Super-dupers, but for the "confidentiality agreement".     And, who are we to know anything, anyhow?

    Whatever they cut from MC and SS (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Amiss on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:52:36 PM EST
    the same should be cut from the Federal Retirement program and more. Also the "double dippers" should be eliminated. Period.

    Hey, but a total scumbag of a soldier (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 10:08:39 PM EST
    who always kissed all the right behind got out, not promotable...no longer active duty.  And we are paying him 1/4 of a million dollars right now to go to Afghanistan for 6 months and fly UAVs.  Oh yeah, and his wife who is two years younger than I am has cancer....and he is divorcing her.  He always had a cheating problem though.  All that should add up to $250,000 of integrity filled drone operator.  Sometimes things just seem hopeless for good decent people.

    Casey, Kdog, Zorba, MoBlue, Dadler, (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:55:21 PM EST
    and others...

    It don't matter.

    Time to look elsewhere. Time to escape fascism. Time to, oh, live and love, instead of making the wheels move.

    doing without gets easier as you go along. being rich is nice, I'm sure. But there's no shame in being poor, moving, and doing what you have to.

    A buddy of mine recently said to me... (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:04:48 PM EST
    ...Dave, your only job is to make sure your son is smart and gets into an Ivy League school and becomes rich.  He was being sarcastic, but I replied that my job was to make sure he is smart, gets into the University of Toronto and becomes a Canadian. ;-)

    That song you linked, along with Woman and Beautiful Boy, damn, they just bring me to tears.

    Feel better, my man.  Hopefully, a month from now, I'll have enough dough to keep the starving artist fund fat for bunch of years.    


    Dave, here's the key. (none / 0) (#39)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:44:32 PM EST
    Win, 1-6th,  1-19th, and walk the fukc away.

    Who needs that pressure? Answer, not Dadler. Take it, run, and play in .50/ 1.00 the rest of your life.

    Your name alone means winning after that.

    150k can change your life. Don't get greedy. ?If you win it all, good. If you win 150k, good. You didn't lose 8 mil, you WON 150K.

    Understand what I'm saying?


    150 K would be a bonanza for me (none / 0) (#45)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:59:27 PM EST
    I ain't greedy, my man, and I live very low on the hog.  I'll settly for in the money and covering my taxes to be honest.  No high fallutin' here. ;-)

    More Mamet. Do it, man. (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:33:18 AM EST
    What the hell happened to Mamet? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:22:52 AM EST
    He wrote a book about how he's not a "brain dead liberal" anymore and has become more conservative, libertarian he'd call it, but when you go on Fox to talk about it, come on.  Jaysus, asking people to buy a book about how you've become old and conservative, that's like asking people to pay good money so you can tell them their shoes are untied.

    tried to read his book (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by jondee on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 02:31:25 PM EST
    I'm still not entirely convinced it wasn't ghost written. By the twin ghosts Jesse Helms and Meir Kahane..

    A bunch of wild-swinging glosses and genaralizations that would make Michael Savage's copy writer cring.

    He's done as a writer imo, to be a great writer you have to have at least a modicum of empathy, and Mamet's has obviously dried up.


    The father of the famous poker playing son (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:26:32 AM EST
    and daughter, who used to talk about words and language, just appeared at our branch libs to talk about the joys of aging!

    Richard Lederer. (none / 0) (#83)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:36:18 AM EST
    Wonder what he thinks about his son (none / 0) (#85)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:37:53 AM EST
    My son loves A WAY WITH WORDS, listens to their podcasts.  An eleven year old could do worse.

    Sign him up for the word-a-day e-mail. (none / 0) (#89)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:52:31 AM EST
    Good idea (none / 0) (#93)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:15:58 AM EST
    My heart hurts. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by caseyOR on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:27:52 PM EST
    Not in the I'm-having-a-heart-attack way, but in the things are so f*ckedup, and they did not need to be, and good people are getting hurt, and it is just so sad way.

    I find myself all too often in the grip of despair.

    Fair warning, Zorba, you may actually find me on your doorstep someday, somewhat the worse for wear, but carrying all my garden tools.


    Sweetie, come on up (none / 0) (#52)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 10:39:33 PM EST
    BTW, we're still getting a few tomatoes out of the garden- it hasn't reached freezing here yet.

    Tonight as I was getting dinner on the table, (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 07:25:16 PM EST
    and my husband had on in the background a show about the evolution of the electric guitar, I was thinking that your description of your property, and the yearning so many have expressed for getting off the grid, had a sort of Woodstock feel to it, and that made me start thinking that maybe some day in the not-too-distant future there might be a possibility of an actual TL weekend kind of gathering at chez Zorba.  

    As a fellow MD resident, and what, maybe 90 minutes from you? - I'd definitely be up to bringing my own food contributions, helping with whatever preparations are involved, should such a thing ever be considered.

    Just throwing it out there - please know that the last thing I intend by this is to be presumptuous - so feel free to chalk it up to dinnertime musings!


    I would love this (none / 0) (#153)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 05:25:05 AM EST
    I live in VA, and just put a contract on a lovely small piece of land near the Blue Ridge Mts, where I hope to build a small house someday soon. So that's another possible meetup place. I'm not too far from Zorba or you.

    I would love that too (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by jbindc on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 09:53:07 AM EST
    If wanted - I live in Alexandria.

    That sounds like fun!


    You know, (none / 0) (#155)
    by Zorba on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 09:28:45 AM EST
    that sounds like it would be a blast!

    I just picked a bunch (20+lbs) of green (none / 0) (#68)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:22:49 AM EST
    to try and stash for winter. New experiment for me :)

    Got room for a skinny chick with a few pets who has food and garden skills?


    Pickle them! (5.00 / 0) (#127)
    by Amiss on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:57:57 PM EST
    Nothing better than green tomatoe pickles!

    I agree, Amiss (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:34:17 PM EST
    We're going to be pickling green tomatoes.  I also had more green beans than I knew what to do with this year (you can only use so many jars of canned green beans, green beans with stewed tomatoes, and green beans in a Greek mixed vegetable stew.  So I made dilled green beans, which I had never done before, and they turned out great!  I'll definitely do that again.

    I know you think I'm just (none / 0) (#69)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:50:30 AM EST
    talking here, Zorba. You imagine that I won't actually get in my car and drive clear across the nation and hang out in a coffee shop with free WiFi  and suddenly inform you in a TL open thread that I just happen to be in the neighborhood and need your address.

    Well, things are getting pretty rough in this great nation of ours. If my expenses keep climbing faster than my Social Security, if Congress cuts Medicare benefits and/or raises premiums and co-pays, well, I won't be able to afford even the rent on my tiny basement studio apartment.  Crashing in your barn starts to look very appealing. Much more appealing than sleeping under one of Portland's bridges.

    Even if Jeff manages to establish a TL pirate beachhead in Romania, I don't have a passport and can't afford the cost ( what is it now $135?) to get  one. And I can't drive the car to Romania. Barn looks better and better.

    How do you and Mr. Zorba feel about commune living? On your property?


    Casey and Zorba, (5.00 / 0) (#133)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:39:16 PM EST
    Message received and retransmitted.

    Y'all check those messages!


    Sigh. And here I got (none / 0) (#140)
    by Towanda on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:35:03 PM EST
    my pirate costume all ready for the pirate ship, but now you're gonna stay landlubbers, after all.

    Ah, well, I have a use for my costume.  Halloween is but a few days away.  And nobody ever has come as a pirate, right?  I mean, that's got to be a really rare idea for a costume, huh?



    Water is kind of scary, Towanda... (5.00 / 0) (#141)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:44:46 PM EST
    We'll start from the mountains, and work our way down...

    Oh noooes, I must live near water (none / 0) (#147)
    by Towanda on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 09:09:52 PM EST
    as I have all of my life.  Oceans not necessary, but lovely wide rivers or lakes are a must.  I need to be able to hear the water, late at night.  We pirates are like that, water-lovers all.

    Ah, well.  So the costume goes back in the box.

    But, but -- what do I do about the nonstop "JeffinAlabama" and kissy noises routine that I keep hearing, over and over?  How I wish I never had taught it to say that.  It's drivin' me nuts.



    Remember Monte Python, Towanda? (none / 0) (#158)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 12:59:12 PM EST
    just sayin'

    If we're gonna do this right... (none / 0) (#76)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 09:31:41 AM EST
    we need to squat some land...liberate some land.

    A foreclosed bankster-owned farm...or land owned by a government that no longer serves the people.  Or how about one of those "private" islands in the Caribbean that a grifter bought with ill-gotten gains?  


    Find the land, kdog, am I'll (none / 0) (#124)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:31:43 PM EST
    be there. Just make sure it isn't land that the banksters stole from some poor guy/gal who was working hard to make the payments and got felled by some stupid bankster rule that let the robber barons take the land.

    Obviously, a place with easy access to the sea is what we need. And, we did agree some time back that our sailing would be concentrated in the warmer of the Seven Seas. So, the Caribbean is a prime location. Plus, the Caribbean is awash in pirate history and tradition. Got to respect tradition. At least some traditions, like rum, but not like kidnapping.

    I'm getting ready to run. Just this morning I finally made peace with the fact that any move will most probably mean selling all my books. I have around 25-30 boxes worth of books. Books have been my comfort since I was a little kid (I was an early reader), and some of these books have been with me since high school. I figured out long ago that books are why I survived my crazy childhood. No matter what was happening in real life in my family, I could escape to better worlds with books. That's what allowed me to cling to what little sanity I have. Still, I can't take them with me if I leave. My Toyota is just too small to haul them around the country or around the oceans.

    So, my fellow pirates, mi compadres, it's time to make our move.


    Absolutely Cap'n... (none / 0) (#157)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 12:16:05 PM EST
    unless we liberate it to give it back to the displaced farmer family who tried playing by the rigged rules...and ask them to let us crash.  Safety in numbers!

    We need (none / 0) (#96)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:27:21 AM EST
    a better way to contact each other.  Does kdog have your email?  Because an email for him is available in his user info, and I can email him and he can send mine to you.  Or we could both email him and ask him to send our emails back and forth, if this is acceptable to you.  Let me know.

    Mine's posted (5.00 / 0) (#110)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 01:52:10 PM EST
    in my information, and I can give you Casey's, if she agrees.

    Both Jeff and kdog have my email address. (5.00 / 0) (#115)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:47:11 PM EST
    And I am fine with them sharing it with you, Zorba.

    Okay, Casey, (none / 0) (#128)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:03:27 PM EST
    I sent my email to jeff, and he can pass it along to you.

    Until we are.... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:33:18 PM EST
    Apeman and Apewoman, Mountain Woman and Mountain Man...there is always Exile right here on Main St.

    This concludes my contribution of musical dopamine.


    as soon as you get a hold (none / 0) (#129)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:06:51 PM EST
    of some real dopamine, let me know..

    Jeff (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by womanwarrior on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 10:39:13 PM EST
    You got it so right.  So, hope you are feeling better?  Healing thoughts.

    If it makes (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:18:52 PM EST
    you feel any better I am now going through health care nightmare here in GA.

    Occupy Oakland protester (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by magster on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:31:38 PM EST
    and Iraq veteran in critical condition with skull fracture and brain swelling from cops' hooliganism last night.

    How is this not national news? Disgusting...didn't know violating park curfew was potentially a capitol offense.

    This must be the video (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:01:41 PM EST
    just linked to this below (none / 0) (#30)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:42:44 PM EST
    I second your thoughts.  

    Very sad. (none / 0) (#32)
    by christinep on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:59:18 PM EST
    Sometimes moments like these....

    What are the California reps saying today. What is Governor Jerry Brown saying about his state?

    Not to push back too much...but, before it goes national, it has to be local & state in terms of response. Also: In California, by definition, there are significant individuals--office holders & not--with significant microphones. Any words from them?


    True (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by sj on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:59:05 PM EST
    I'm not convinced though that the response hasn't already gone national, albeit under the covers.  All at the same time all the mayors got very concerned about cleaning the facilities and about the protesters not observing curfews.  

    The one overarching freedom -- if any freedoms are going to exist -- is freedom of speech.  When that gets determined by a 9 to 5 schedule, I'd say freedom of speech is also being curtailed.

    And I think they're in for a long, tough winter.  I think they are all very brave.  They may need to be just as brave as those at the start of the 20th century who first brought us unions and workers' rights.  I fear for them.  Not as much as I celebrate them.  But I do fear for them.


    if this crap happened in Iraq, libya or Turkey (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Amiss on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 11:29:21 PM EST
    the news would be all over it, That totally pesses me off. And I do mean TOTALLY!.

    I made it "local and state" (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Towanda on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:07:06 AM EST
    back in his home state, my former state -- and I know a reporter there, so I called, and it's page-one there now . . . and spreading, once the paper got onto it and got more info on him, as that paper is one of the main regional feeds for AP.  

    But it's weird when you have to tell a U.S. newspaper that there's a story about one of its locals that is being reported first by the Guardian.  That's where I first read about the poor vet's hometown right here.

    That is so telling about mainstream media in the U.S., isn't it?  


    DAMN IT. I am working on a TL escape. (none / 0) (#40)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:48:47 PM EST
    Give me 9 months. No fascism. Looking for Anarco_syndicalists.

    I'm heading -- over there.--


    This news is just getting on the (none / 0) (#44)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:31:32 PM EST
    news cycle here. Made the 4PM news*, but earlier in the day it was more about what kind of 'force' they were really using and of course blaming it on the protesters. Oakland Mayor was losing her progressive street cred on the morning news . . . . Also showed some of the injuries to other protesters. One women had one heck of a nasty bruise on the back of her thigh with a nice neat circle in the center of it. Rubber bullet?

    Looks like it will be covered on ABC WN, see if they mention the Vet . . .

    * I'll catch it on the 6PM news, garden needed tending earlier . . . .


    From all the accounts with which I am (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:39:18 AM EST
    familiar, this was an Oakland P.D. response, not involving state law enforcement or the Governor.

    Iraq war vet injured in Occupy Oakland (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:41:43 PM EST
    "once AGAIN marched in..." (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:43:18 PM EST
    Going out to test the small business loaning (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 09:56:53 AM EST
    waters.  My future son-in-law, the guy who has decided that he loves my grandkids so much he has been feeding them, he needs to make an equipment jump.  It sure would help being able to feed those little ones easier if he had a Bobcat/Skidsteer.  We have talked about it several times, and I told him I would co-sign and financially help him make that jump and he has been on the lookout for one for about a year now. He has found a used one for sale by a farmer here for about half price.  We shall see now if there really is any money for small businesses to be loaned.  Wish us luck.

    Wishing you SO much luck. (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by sj on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:45:12 AM EST
    Double Luck (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:47:26 AM EST
    This has always been my motto in the good times and bad times:
    You can't keep a good man down.

    Man of course is me talking to myself, but no matter what happens in life, you can not keep a good person down, it life's physics.


    So far so ugly (none / 0) (#111)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 01:57:29 PM EST
    I had to take Josh in to have his hearing aid adjusted.  FSIL said he thought he would go down to his bank which is a division of Synovus and see if he could get things started.

    I warned him :)  The big banks, they've screwed themselves up badly, don't want to make any money the old fashioned way.  They want to mechanically bundle and fee their way to billions that aren't there anymore :)  He said that they had always been a good bank to him.  Baby, define a good bank?

    They had no way to value heavy equipment.  All that stuff is so yesterday anyhow after the mortgage craze hit the streets.  The thing is worth around 17,000, he needs 9,000.  They told him they would consider loaning him 4500.  He looks like someone kicked him in the teeth.  At this point, nobody can take any of this stuff to heart.  It has very little to do with your credit score, and how reliable you are, and how many recommendations you have, how much you have already grown your business and can show them.  Larry Summers and his band of merry psychos worked very hard for a very long time to remove anything human from all equations.  That stuff is messy, distracting, unreliable, and the only thing we are all made of.


    Has that little trooper been (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:43:10 PM EST
    inducted into The Order of the Spur yet? If not, let me know.

    His dad flew a Scout (none / 0) (#146)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 07:27:27 PM EST
    Crashed in Bosnia, both pilots injured pretty badly.  They layed out there for over a day before we got to them.

    His dad is tough as hell though, just bada$$ tough.  His son sort of is too, he works so hard.  They brought his dad home, had to fuse his neck because of injury.  He was put out on disability and rehabbed, and he's back on the flight line teaching kids how to fly 58s.  He (pilot dad) does a week long hike on the Applachian trail with HIS DAD every year. They sleep outside, eat something not out of a refrigerator, only see a few other people on the trail.  He did give himself a bad meetup with plantar fasciitis last year and had to wear a cast for awhile.  But he just got back from doing it again this year :)  He is an avid hunter too.


    Would a credit union help? (none / 0) (#116)
    by sj on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:56:45 PM EST
    Most likely yes (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 07:04:00 PM EST
    And we belong to one therefore tomorrow we will check with them.  I think we will find his money for him in the end.  It is a good learning experience for him though in understanding that banks are selling you something too and you matter in the equation, being more rational than emotional too about money and business matters.

    I want him to be able to establish some credit in this transaction but this is a transaction that is impossible to lose in right now.  I'll buy the damned thing and if we hate it and it sucks and is useless I'll sell for $17000 :)

    Americans are so emotional about money though, and their credit scores, an entire system that is now so gamed against them it isn't funny.  All this while many investors out there would love a 5% return on their money at this time.  Just gotta find them.

    It also makes me look less like some crazy pulpit pounder soap boxer.  This is what I'm always going on and on about.  And now my kids can sort of experience it firsthand, this current B.S. economic dynamic that causes me to go into long windy lectures.

    I figured it was going to go down that way for him going to see them first.  And he felt like such a failure never suspecting who in the building are the biggest failures....it wasn't him. But he felt like a big failure like many people in his shoes do at this time, and they are anything but failures.  They will be the one thing that will revive us, but it is a bit uphill for them right now.


    When I read things like the situation (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Edger on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 07:12:52 PM EST
    you're describing MT, it sometimes gets me wondering if writing a letter to Lloyd Blankfein - and cc'ing it to Obama and a few well chosen media - asking Goldman Sachs for a loan secured by equipment would help? ;-)

    Credit Unions cannot make loans (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 06:08:15 PM EST
    for profit making ventures.  We can take a loan out on it and say that it is for our own work around our house but the Credit Union cannot make us a loan on a profit making venture.  Will have to try a different financing avenue now or lie :)  In any case he probably won't be able to have the loan in his name and establish credit history paying for machinery for his business at this time.

    Can he get a credit card (none / 0) (#161)
    by Edger on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 07:15:23 PM EST
    with a $9000 limit on it?

    Or how about something like (none / 0) (#162)
    by Edger on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 07:26:25 PM EST
    Citadel Equipment Finance (CEF) is one of the nation's leading providers of equipment financing and leasing solutions. We offer the most competitive rates and a simple application process that eliminates the hassle of tax returns and financial statements.

    more here: small business equipment financing


    Why thank you Edger (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Oct 29, 2011 at 01:06:56 AM EST
    I wanted to look for something like this, and I was gone most of the night....just got home.  And you did some leg work for me.  Thank you!

    Good luck, MT (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Edger on Sat Oct 29, 2011 at 08:28:50 AM EST
    Let us know how it works out!

    MT, there are some local banks around. (none / 0) (#134)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:41:35 PM EST
    Shoot me an email, I'll send you some bank names. And with some, ppl to talk to, also.
    If you were in another state, I couldn't help, but I do know Alabama.

    Will do Jeff (none / 0) (#142)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 06:53:27 PM EST
    Occupy America podcast (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:36:57 AM EST
    Info about the Occupy Oakland raid, which was carried out by officers from as far away as Vacaville. (LINK)

    And I link again to this awful video from the raid, where an officer hurls a flash grenade directly into a group of protesters helping an injured person.  (LINK)

    The police across the country, apparently, would feel very comfortable in Iran, where they could just shoot people and be done with it.  How all the decent officers on these forces don't refuse to participate, don't speak up, nothing, is just beyond excuse.

    The Guardian's coverage of Occupiers (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Towanda on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:30:50 AM EST
    is so good and sometimes just delicious.  Longish excerpt here, but the entirety is needed to enjoy the fun had with Fox News:  "Just like that," the story could be said to have, um, written itself, since it certainly didn't come from OWS sources.  Instead, it relies on those mysterious "sources said" sources. . . .

    All that's missing are the palm trees!  But then, palm trees do not drop those ACORNs that so occupy the minds (using the term loosely) at Fox News.

    11.45am: Fox News' reporting on Occupy Wall Street has been criticised by some protesters (there's even a spoof Fox News reporter, complete with cardboard camera and mic, at Zuccotti Park), but undeterred, their reporters continue to plug away - apparently now working on a story which claims homeless people are being "recruited from shelters" to be at Occupy Wall Street. Fox also appears to be pursuing a line which says are being paid "$100 a day".

    A Fox News reporter has emailed a list of questions to Occupy Wall Street protesters to try and get a response to the accusations. One protester has kindly shared the email with me - here it is:

    1. What role is New York Communities for Change (NYCC) playing in Occupy Wall Street (OWS)?

    2. What is your understanding of the participation of Jon Kest, a former ACORN director, in OWS?

    3. What is your understanding of the participation in OWS of NYCC Deputy Director Gregory Basta, Jonathan Westin, Allan Harris, and Amelia Adams.

    4. How many former ACORN activists from around the country are involved in OWS?

    5. Please share your take on accusations that some of the protestors are actually receiving payments, in part funded by NYCC? "Sources" saying that in some cases people are getting $100 a day and that even local NYC homeless people have been recruited from shelters.

    6. There are accusations that these hired activists are being used as door-to-door canvassers to collect money that is used to support the OWS protests.

    7. How about accusations that cash donations for UFT's PCB campaign is being used on OWS?

    I won't name the reporter, but the email was sent to Occupy Wall Street from a Fox News email address.

    The protester who shared the email with me said: "It's all baseless stuff we've never heard of before." Interesting....

    12.04pm: Just like that, here's the Fox story. It alleges the former activist group ACORN is paying people to attend protests at Occupy Wall Street.

    "Dozens of New York homeless people recruited from shelters are also being paid to support the protests, at the rate of $10 an hour, the sources said," the story says.

    Here's a longer chunk:

    The former New York office for ACORN, the disbanded community activist group, is playing a key role in the self-proclaimed "leaderless" Occupy Wall Street movement, organizing "guerrilla" protest events and hiring door-to-door canvassers to collect money under the banner of various causes while spending it on protest-related activities, sources tell FoxNews.com.

    The former director of New York ACORN, Jon Kest, and his top aides are now busy working at protest events for New York Communities for Change (NYCC). That organization was created in late 2009 when some ACORN offices disbanded and reorganized under new names after undercover video exposes prompted Congress to cut off federal funds.

    NYCC's connection to ACORN isn't a tenuous one: It works from the former ACORN offices in Brooklyn, uses old ACORN office stationery, employs much of the old ACORN staff and, according to several sources, engages in some of the old organization's controversial techniques to raise money, interest and awareness for the protests.

    Sources said NYCC has hired about 100 former ACORN-affiliated staff members from other cities - paying some of them $100 a day - to attend and support Occupy Wall Street. Dozens of New York homeless people recruited from shelters are also being paid to support the protests, at the rate of $10 an hour, the sources said.

    Well, the House passed, nearly unanimously, (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:30:47 PM EST
    the "even Obama supported" GOP bill that eliminates the 3% withholding on payments to private contractors for government projects, and, in a separate bill, pays for it by changing the way Social Security benefits are treated for Medicaid eligibility purposes.

    David Dayen:

    The House bill eliminating the 3% withholding rule, making it easier for government contractors to cheat on their taxes, a small part of the American Jobs Act and supported by the President, passed today, on a near-unanimous vote of 405-16. The bill was paid for through a separate measure, which changes the calculation of modified adjusted gross income by including Social Security benefits in the calculation, for the purposes of determining eligibility for programs like Medicaid and SCHIP. This fix of a "glitch" that would allow some middle-income early retirees to get nearly free Medicaid coverage (we can't have that!), passed by a smaller amount, on a vote of 262 to 157. 27 Democrats joined 235 Republicans in supporting the bill.

    Now, they go to the Senate, where the 3% withholding requirement passed last week with 57 votes (but was paired with a different pay-for in the same bill); I guess the question is, will the separate Medicaid eligibility calculation bill pass?  Hey, the president supports it, so my guess is it will, in fact, pass.

    Aren't we all just so, so proud of the fine job Democrats are doing of paying for everything on the backs of the least among us?

    Who dems and repubs are working for (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 01:34:25 PM EST
    Hint: It's not you.

    Thom Hartmann explained this week how just 147 corporations run the entire global economy.

    Spurred on by a recent study titled "The capitalist network runs the world," The Big Picture host showed how there are harmful clusters of power that have become pervasive throughout the system that runs the global economy.

    "These 147 companies around the world have basically organized themselves into this cancer, and they're basically running the world," he explained. "There sucking up 40 percent of all the resources in the world."

    -- 5 minute video

    Oakland (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 05:42:05 PM EST
    If Gandhi was right, yesterday's Civil Resistance Action in Oakland, California, achieved all of its aims. By day's end a heavily-armed, fully-militarized police force was in control of Frank Ogawa Plaza, but Occupy Oakland was in control of the agenda.
    Armed only with a growing chant of "Our streets!" the marchers moved forward towards the line of police in riot gear. Shoulder to shoulder in non-violent defiance, the marchers tried to filter through the line of riot-armored police. The police attacked the marchers with their truncheons, mostly spearing at protesters' midsections. It did not work.
    Whatever meaning the Occupy Movement represents to the protesters who participate, to the Oakland Police Department, and the system they are paid to protect, it obviously represents something to be feared and repressed ... violently, and even lethally, if necessary. The police that confronted the people in the streets of Oakland, California, were scared, their riot gear notwithstanding. Make no mistake about it. More importantly their corporate employers are scared, too.
    Yesterday the police, the city fathers and the commercial media saw Oakland and made their decisions based on that. But they did not see the movement within its "world-wide" context. This is big ... very big, and spreading rapidly across the United States and around the world. And there is no indication that police violence can stop it.

    Photos and Story By Marc Ash, Reader Supported News


    First they Ignore You (NYT irst 2 weeks) (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by smott on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:34:31 PM EST
    Then they Ridicule You (Fox News)
    Then they FIght You (now)



    I certainly hope so (none / 0) (#53)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 10:42:27 PM EST

    Ah . . . the smell of transparency (none / 0) (#2)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 01:50:54 PM EST
    in the air . . . not.

    Obama freezes local reporters out of S.F. event

    Three former top White House press aides called the move insular and politically short-sighted. And some press watchers said it is hypocritical for an administration that Obama promised would be "the most transparent in history."

    He promise to be transparent (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Edger on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 01:58:29 PM EST
    I've never had any problem seeing through him.

    Good point (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 02:02:50 PM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#3)
    by sj on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 01:56:29 PM EST
    ice is transparent, isn't it?  So freezing out local reporters is also transparent, amiright?

    May have been foggy out ;) (none / 0) (#5)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 02:01:07 PM EST
    Honestly, if his press pool is responsible for the video we saw, he may want to rethink not inviting local reporters when in SF . . . or get a better press pool :)

    You're on a roll today (none / 0) (#8)
    by vicndabx on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:05:39 PM EST
    Ken Lisaius, who oversaw local White House press coverage as a former deputy director of the office of media affairs in the Bush administration, said he "simply can't recall a time where we didn't provide for a local pool. It's part of a transparent and identifiable government."

    from a Bush admin official no less.

    Nicolle Wallace, a former press secretary to Republican President George W. Bush

    'nuff said

    Chris Lehane, a former spokesman for Democratic President Bill Clinton


    In 1992, Lehane was the political director of the Clinton-Gore presidential campaign in Maine, and was later brought into the White House where he served as a lawyer in the White House Counsel's Office who worked as part of a small unit responsible for helping the White House manage various scandals throughout the 1990s such as Whitewater and the Monica Lewinsky affair. Wiki

    Seems to be a fair amount of coverage on his visit to SF - maybe this particular paper and it's affiliates got the cold shoulder?


    I actually thought it sounded more (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:20:41 PM EST
    like a Bush move than an Obama one :)

    As I said in another comment, he would have prob done a bit better with local coverage. The video supplied to the news wasn't his best. Perhaps it's also why the protests got more coverage. Bunch of reporters hanging around with no President to cover . . .

    This was his 3rd money trip here in just a couple of months. Methinks he should try and be a bit more gracious to the locals . . .


    Ah (none / 0) (#12)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:31:39 PM EST
    Then he'd have to take questions about the treatment of some of the Oakland protestors if local press were allowed in.

    THAT would be awkward at a $7500 a plate fundraiser, wouldn't it?  He learned his lesson in SF about making fun of those not on the elite cocktail party circuit once....


    Yes, the 1 percenters that he wants (5.00 / 0) (#59)
    by Towanda on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:12:12 AM EST
    don't want to hear about those nasty 99 percenters.

    However, it was interesting in following the Oakland news last night to read that outside his fundraiser was a major protest of more than 1,000 -- led by many former major donors to Obama.  Wow.

    And it was more than interesting but downright sad to then be watching the livestreaming of veterans and other 99 percenters attacked by police while, on another screen, I was watching Obama joking with Jay.  Laughs on one screen from the Commander in Chief, screams on another screen from citizens also attacked for trying to help a veteran bleeding on the ground for upholding the Constitution.

    That juxtaposition will be forever engraved in my memory bank.  Today, I found that I could not even look at the CIC's face on the tv screen.


    Just looked at some links (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:54:43 AM EST
    At what happened in Oakland........truly horrifying.
    A marine veteran, now a "Veteran for Peace,"  shot in the face with a rubber bullet, and to put a punctuation mark on the brutality (sadism) of the attack, those rushing to the marine's aid were also shot at. One young woman's face looks like a grenade went off 6 inches in front of her. And, if you don't think "rubber" bullets can cause any damage, looking at those pictures will end that myth, once and for all.

     How our "leaders" can see pictures like these, and not put the issues that have galvanized so many thousands of these patriotic protesters on the front burner is besides me.

    I pray not, but I fear a "Kent State," or something much worse will have to happen before the country starts taking this seriously.

    p.s. I could provide the links, but choose not to. Anyone can find them pretty easily. They just make me puke; let someone else provide the links.


    Up in the air as to whether (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:19:00 AM EST
    it was a rubber bullet or tear gas canister. They are calling it a "projectile" for the moment. It's being investigated as a level one, which is the same as if an officer had used lethal force (their words).

    They have a serious problem on their hands at this point. They are closing transit stations so the Oakland folks can't go to SF and support them (may get evicted tonight). I think it may be a bad idea to try and prevent protesters from going to the various sites. What are they going to do during the day? Public transport around here is very good, can't disrupt it too much . . . And there are several Occupy sites that could mobilize . . .  


    Two points: (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:12:00 AM EST
    1. The OWS people should make "freedom of speech" the center piece of their message. Freedom to speak "when" THEY say it's all right, "where" THEY say it's all right, and "how long" THEY say is all right, is no freedom at all.

    2. Make every effort to bring the police over to their side. It's THEIR fight they're fighting, after all. The freedom to gather, and negotiate work, pay, benefits, etc. should be everyone's fight. Mubarak was finished the moment the Army refused to fire on the citizenry. OWS should emphasize that point with the police.

    Assumes (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by jbindc on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 08:53:59 AM EST
    That the people causing trouble in the protests are actually OWS protestors and not people just joining in to cause trouble.

    Correctomundo (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by sj on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:30:02 AM EST
    And there is plenty of precedence w/r/t the use of agent provocateurs by the government.  Also in this case, the oligarchs would have a vested interest in disrupting the process.

    Bingo!.... (none / 0) (#87)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:41:55 AM EST
    Wouldn't suprise me if the "drug dealers" reportedly appearing on the scene trying to sling blow are NYPD...cointelpro stylee.

    Oh, not just the government (none / 0) (#92)
    by jbindc on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:10:33 AM EST
    I'm thining of people who just like to stir up trouble at protests for the sheer fact of trying to claim "look at Bad Big Brother!"

    Professional anarchists and such.


    Based on past history (none / 0) (#94)
    by sj on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:22:03 AM EST
    there are likely to be far fewer (if any) "Professional anarchists and such"* than there are hired guns acting as agent provocateurs.


    * scratching my head here.  What exactly is a "professional anarchist"?


    Professional Anarchists are Hired Guns... (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:55:31 AM EST
     ...acting as agent provocateurs.

    Our side still should be doing (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:19:17 PM EST
    more to put out in the media the possibility that some provocative/violent actions by protesters may be the result of police-approved agents provocateurs.  Our law enforcement authorities certainly have a long documented history of pulling this sort of thing so it's hardly some wacky paranoid conspiracy theory.

    Re MSM coverage of the Oakland event I was somewhat surprised this am to hear Mike Barnicle on MoJoe say flat out it was a police riot -- and Joe and Willy Geist didn't disagree.


    Thanks for providing the plural (none / 0) (#152)
    by sj on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 01:59:41 AM EST
    agents provocateurs.  I hope I have the wit to remember that the next time I have need of it.  Which, surprisingly, might be sooner than one would think.

    Thet are quite similar to (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:08:58 PM EST
    "sheer facts.".....so thin, they're invisible.

    You know, a member of (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:52:32 PM EST
    the anarchist's local, getting a 6 figure salary, free health, and retirement after 20 years.

    Great work if you can get it, but it's a closed shop, and references/sponsorship are a biyatch to get.


    Those "troublemakers"... (none / 0) (#97)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:27:22 AM EST
    sometimes work for the government to discredit a movement.  

    And some are just choosing to fight trouble with trouble...not my preferred tactic, but better than doing nothing.


    Sometimes they do work for the government (none / 0) (#101)
    by jbindc on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:49:16 AM EST
    Sometimes they want to stir up trouble so they can scream things like "Police Brutality!"

    There's all kinds in groups like these.


    The police... (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:56:59 AM EST
    need not be so happy to oblige in brutality...and they too look for reasons to give their nightsticks, pepper spray, tear gas, tasers, snaring nets, and guns some excercise and scream "law and order!".

    Brutality is a Result of... (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 01:11:53 PM EST
     ...all the training and expenditures spent, like wars, once they have the $hit they are going to use it.  To me the larger question is why do they have all this gear to begin with ?

    It would be nice if some reporters would start asking why this and this is getting cut and yet the cops are dressed out in riot gear, clearly trained, and armed with all kinds of riot gadgets when Oakland, to the best of my knowledge, has never had a riot.

    And even more importantly, they still don't.  They have people on public space exercising their Constitutional right to "...peaceably... assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".


    Did I share this?... (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 01:42:11 PM EST
    a Marine vet asking these very questions of police who are equipped like they are going to war instead of going to serve and protect.

    And yet (none / 0) (#113)
    by jbindc on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:28:40 PM EST
    In many cases, police are still out armed by criminals.  Strange....

    criminals also don't get (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:12:58 PM EST
    to say "he was acting in a menacing, threatening manner" and have it work just about every time; after they, say, shoot some ex-mental patient who forgot to take their meds.

    or the family dog that had the misfortune to bark (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:31:24 PM EST
    If you want to talk about crime, (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:24:34 PM EST
    have at it, but the only crimes the Occupy movement is concerned with are the ones committed against them, not by them.

    I haven't seen anything that suggests that, with respect to the Occupy movement, police are being confronted at all, much less by armed citizens, unless you consider being armed with a point of view, a right to free speech, and something to say to be so threatening that it requires the use of tear gas, flash bombs, bean bags and rubber bullets.

    Here's part of an interesting take on the police actions at OccupyOakland , from Richard Kline in a comment at naked capitalism:

    Everything about the action of the Oakland authorities was a bungle; that's evidence that they are increasingly befuddled in how to respond. The cowardly mayor of Oakland made sure to be out of town when this went down, meaning that the senior civilian authority was vacant during the critical afternoon and evening hours regardless of who was nominally left in charge. Gaining superior force and crushing the Base Camp was easy to do, but the Occupiers had made it clear that they would respond and the authorities seemed to have no clear plan whatsoever to do about that. When the evening march began, there was no tactical plan; Holland called it one of the most inept responses he'd seen. The violence from the police was reactive, and not nearly as bad as it could have been, which suggests that they clearly didn't want to let loose but got themselves backed into a position where they felt they had to escalate. Something that I think will be underappreciated by most readers here is that this is the typical cause of violence at marches and rallies of this kind; not police `evil,' or agitators intent, but the police lacking a plan and essentially panicking into escalating to maintain control of area which they are trained to do. And as I suspect in this instance, much of the worst violence is from ancilliary police units brought in to assist who lack good engagement with the local chain of command and are worried about protecting their own contingent. That was true in the `Battle in Seattle' where panicked, rioting regional cops perpetrated most of the worst assaults on protestors.

    The authorities clearly can't get any handle on how to engage with the Occupiers--and that's good, for the Occupation. The NYT piece is a sour joke, on how the authorities `are losing patience' and will soon [get on with crushing these things as the NYT reporter is clearly salivating for]. The Occupations which are pushed out have for the most part reoccupied ground or simply set up a new camp at a nearby location which often has proved a tactical improvement. Oakland came off terribly for this action as the NYPD did for its excesses, so terribly that an evidently planned muscled-and-disperse action in San Francisco across the Bay for Wednesday night was called off; still waiting for final word, but the police massed resources, then sent then away. That is what will happen when other cities fuming authorities lash out: they'll be the ones who look like thugs and nincompoops. Baltimore and Atlanta saw muscle actions Tuesday night also; don't be surprised if they are back holding ground within the weak or sooner. And furthermore, don't be surprised if police morale collapses well before that of the Occupiers in many of these cities. Think how the Oakland cops likely feel now: given a bad order, left in the lurch by cowardly civilians, fumbled into using force badly when they didn't want to at all, and now a national shame. The cops got NOTHING out of Tuesday morning's clearance except much, much larger and more energized crowd to have to contain.

    It's a very long comment, but well worth reading in its entirety.


    As positions harden (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:11:33 PM EST
    On both sides of the issue, the media is treating it like a political campaign, not a controversy based on real, factual, identifiable issues.

    What do the protesters want? Justice and fairness, not just for Americans, but for all the world's citizens.

    What do the "authorities" want? Order & compliance.

    The questions reporters should be seeking to provide answers for are nowhere to be found.

    For instance:
    Who decides where, when, and for how long free people can congregate?

    Do today's authorities not remember Kent State?

    Are there no psychologists in government who can counsel the leaders as to what happens when they, arbitrarily and disdainfully, attempt to constrict them?

    And on, and on, and on........

    Its not even sickening any more; it's criminal.


    At Occupy Gatherings? (none / 0) (#114)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:40:28 PM EST
    Surely you jest.

    What criminals? (none / 0) (#117)
    by sj on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:57:48 PM EST
    Protesters are armed criminals, now?  Are you kidding me?

    JB (none / 0) (#154)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 09:27:33 AM EST
    And yet in many cases, police are still out armed by criminals.  Strange....

    Exactly, out armed by criminals because they are dropping their budget dollars on riot gear, and wasting man hours on disseminating peaceful people.

    The gear and man hours Oakland is spending on this would be far better served on real criminals, not veterans and quadriplegics exercising their Constitution right to assemble.

    Speaking of Veterans, how many dollars is this little stunt going to cost the taxpayers payers when Scott Olson, an Iraqi Veteran sues the crap out of the cops for damn near killing him ?  Or his family should he not pull through.

    This stunt in now way made Oakland safer, and surely the man hours spent arresting 85 peaceful people allowed some criminals to commit crimes consequence free.


    Thanks for that, seriously (none / 0) (#138)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:23:51 PM EST
    I know nothing about this guy, but in that clip, he is a Great American, flat out.  Hope there are tens of thousands more like him.  Hundreds of thousands.  Peace, bro.  

    Justin Elliott of Salon was on (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:08:14 PM EST
    one of the cable shows last night talking about the militarization of our police forces and how this rarely gets discussed in the MSM.

    As for the origins we'd probably have to go back to the eighties and Reagan and the war against drugs and Congress allowing the Pentagon to train and equip local PDs.  And then more recently all the many millions sent to states and localities by the Homeland Security to fight terror.  With a result that probably far too many local police are getting over-militarized all out of proportion to actual local threats.


    that's a hell of lot (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:28:20 PM EST
    of trouble to go to just to be able to get your head busted and "be able to scream police brutality"..

    What? Is screaming police brutality some ultimate emotional catharsis I've been missing out on?


    What part of "freezes local (none / 0) (#10)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:25:32 PM EST
    reporters out" wasn't clear?  Do you need a definition of "local?"

    And for all your helpful excerpts, you kind of zoomed right past the lede:

    President Obama is scheduled to appear before hundreds of donors at a $7,500-a-plate noontime fundraiser today at San Francisco's W Hotel - but not a single local reporter will be allowed inside to cover his only stop in the area, the White House said Monday.

    Coverage instead is being restricted to a small pool of Washington-based reporters - a move that is a sharp departure from the practices of past administrations, political observers said.

    And Ken Lasius, whose quote you provided, states before the italicized portion of the excerpt, right there where we can all see it:

    simply can't recall a time where we didn't provide for a local pool.

    He's not praising the transparency of the reporting, he's criticizing the lack of local coverage, which was the whole point of the article.



    And local 'round these parts (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:30:00 PM EST
    covers a lot of territory. Real stupid move, imo.

    To use your line (none / 0) (#13)
    by vicndabx on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:45:49 PM EST
    Good Lord Anne.  I know that the post is about lack of local reporting.  Did you zoom past my last line?

    The post starts out by making a quip about transparency in the administration - which is why I replied in the manner I did.

    Sheesh yourself.


    I have no idea (none / 0) (#15)
    by sj on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:22:10 PM EST
    what your point is.  Your last line is conjecture compared to the reporting in the article.  I don't get at all what you are trying to say.  

    Right now from where I'm sitting you are just as transparent as the administration.  I'm sure you don't mean to be opaque, but...



    I'm confused about what you're trying to say here (none / 0) (#14)
    by sj on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:14:46 PM EST
    None of your quotes sound like local coverage.  Are you trying to rebut or support what nycstray is saying?  Because all of your quotes support it.

    Not commenting on the local coverage (none / 0) (#43)
    by vicndabx on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:26:04 PM EST
    aspect at all.

    Rather, responding to the "transparency isn't really true for this administration" comment that began the post and use of republicans and presumably, a member w/a limited in role in the Clinton admin to bolster that argument against a Dem administration.


    Transparency was lost before this administration (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Amiss on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 11:45:11 PM EST
    ever took office when he had Teddy Kennedy all snuggled up with Reps from health insurance companies BEHIND CLOSED DOORS discussing how badly they were gonna screw us with Obama Care.

    The local coverage issue was the (none / 0) (#47)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:39:26 PM EST
    whole point, but I guess that's not the conversation/debate you wanted to have so you changed the whole focus.

    Since you didn't care for who the Chronicle reached out to for quotes on the transparency of this administration, maybe you can explain in your own words how not allowing local media coverage at a presidential appearance is or is not evidence of a transparent and open administration.

    It may not be as much fun as using the quoted individuals as strawmen for your argument, but it might give you an idea of why some of us did not find your comment particularly responsive.


    Ok, I'll bite (none / 0) (#56)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:02:34 AM EST
    What else is there to know besides what was said and who attended? --who heckled the president? The content of the speech was released to the press. IMO, the words and tone of the post use this non-issue to imply something that is false and for support, links to an article by a slighted newspaper that uses quotes from folks w/an obvious axe to grind.

    It's not that complicated.


    Apparently . . . (none / 0) (#65)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:10:14 AM EST
    all newspapers/media/etc were slighted.

    I honestly don't know why he decided to go that route in a very blue city, do you? Imo, it was a very stupid move PR wise. He spends no time with the people here unless they can pay a large sum of money to see him (x3), so it seems he's just widening the divide. And as I said before, the protesters got more airtime and the supplied video was not his best (I'm sure he prob had better from the event).

    I found the article/issue interesting, that's why I posted it. And it was more of a goof about the "transparency issue" with the quote. I think it's more concerning that he's censoring his public appearances . . .


    I get it (none / 0) (#74)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 06:33:38 AM EST
    and was kinda goofing you back, but I think you knew that.

    whew. You are really hard to follow (none / 0) (#82)
    by sj on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:33:00 AM EST
    I don't know if nycstray knew you were goofing back, but I sure didn't.

    From "NowheresVille" to Astana. (none / 0) (#48)
    by observed on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:50:36 PM EST
    A little bit of history. The previous  name of Astana was Tselinograd, which means "Virgin lands city", but really meant NowheresVille. The communists sent people here, and  it was a horrible hardship, with many people dying.
    The aim was to turn KZ into a grain producing region. In that, the Soviets were successful.
     A Russian friend explained this to me yesterday.

    About the air: (none / 0) (#58)
    by observed on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:07:44 AM EST
    Apparently there has been burning of leaves around the city since I arrived. Thus, I may hope for better quality air before long.

    Very interesting. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:40:26 AM EST
    By the way, there are wild dogs here (none / 0) (#66)
    by observed on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:14:11 AM EST
    I don't think they are strays. There are some near my apartment, which is right by the Pyramid---i.e. in a very urban area.
    I'll have to look into getting a rabies vaccination.

    The annual flowers are still in bloom here. I'm not sure, but I think that in this area of KZ one can see wild tulips in the spring. Tulips are native to the steppes.


    I heard about the dog problem (5.00 / 0) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:53:05 AM EST
    Reason to suspect that they are the product of strays interbreeding with the wolf population since the wolf population is very healthy there. Be careful, you may need to get a heavy pipe...something along those lines to carry with you when outdoors.

    I believe the hypothesis about interbreeding (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by observed on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:56:29 AM EST
    These dogs look vulpine, but not fully so.
    My complex has security guards 24/7, so I am not worried about dogs there.
    The place is huge, by the way. Right now it's 20 stories or so (depends on the block) and maybe 1/2 mile long. It will be MUCH bigger when finished.
    The security guards are happy about the work. One of them told me his pay now is better than he had as a teacher.

    Did you mean lupine? (none / 0) (#95)
    by sj on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:24:32 AM EST
    It is far more likely that dogs will interbreed with wolves than with foxes.  In fact, I'm not sure they can interbreed with foxes.  Even after querying the less and less useful Google.

    You are correct. (none / 0) (#150)
    by observed on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 12:39:41 AM EST
    Iirc, a couple of the breeds there (none / 0) (#90)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:55:42 AM EST
    are pretty ancient. I think it was that Nat Geo  (?) program about dog evolution that showed the feral dogs of the area and talked about their ancestry and how they seem more connected to the wolf.

    Thanks for all the details (none / 0) (#71)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:39:23 AM EST
    You really paint a picture. I wonder where the wild dogs came from. Maybe descendants of strays or abandoned pets.

    How are the apples there? (none / 0) (#112)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:03:05 PM EST
    Have you tried the one called "The king of apples" yet?

    I knew a woman there whose grandfather had a tremendous rose garden. Apparently it can be wonderful in KZ to grow many different plants, shrubs, and trees.


    Not yet. (none / 0) (#151)
    by observed on Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 12:40:32 AM EST
    I"m looking forward to it.

    Other heavy thoughts today (none / 0) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:19:17 AM EST
    Two women who have gone through the stress of being an active duty spouse, both won their first battle with cancer but it has returned and they are now both appearing to lose the war. One is 45 and one is 29.  I wonder if this stress isn't putting all of us in greater danger than we even currently comprehend?  I don't know what it would be like to sit on all my emotions and feelings and just paste a smile on my face and wave my flag, neither one of them is like me though.  There was no decompression in their unquestionable dedication.  Or maybe what is happening to them both at their ages is just an existing fluke in my life.

    How awful (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:55:53 AM EST
    I have to believe stress played a part. It is so hard on the body.

    All of the topics on this thread have me sad about so many aspects of the world we have created. And I don't see a way out.


    The Economy (none / 0) (#99)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:41:16 AM EST
    Grew almost twice as fast this summer as it did during the spring. I mentioned that the Spring was really a unique apex of disasters, from the EU economy really starting to freak out, the Japanese earthquake, etc.

    This doesn't mean that people aren't suffering.  Employment numbers lag far behind this kind of thing.  In addition it doesn't mean that the growth is spectacular.  The growth is good for an economy with decent employment but not what is needed to really put a dent in the unemployment numbers.

    But it does indicate that what I hoped happened was occurring: we probably hit the low point of the second downturn at the start of the year and the slow recovery is beginning in earnest.

    It doesn't mean everything is peachy, but it is nice to know we've started to head in the right direction.  

    While I will grant you that positive numbers (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:15:23 PM EST
    beat negative ones, I think it's important to note that the growth isn't even keeping up with the population, so I think the best you could say about this is that we're treading water.  Which beats drowning any way you look at it.

    Here's Dean Baker:

    The economy is settling into a pattern of sustained weak growth. Investment growth is likely to remain relatively healthy as equipment and software investment stays strong, while structure investment becomes at least a small positive in the growth data. Housing has bottomed and will likely be a small positive going forward. Consumption growth is likely to be in a 2-3 percent range. Consumers still have not fully adjusted to their loss of housing wealth (at 4.1 percent, the saving rate in the quarter was well below the 8 percent pre-bubble average), so consumption is likely to trail income growth.

    Given the depth of the downturn, this pattern of weak growth is grossly inadequate. At this pace the economy will never return to full employment since it is just keeping pace with the growth of the labor force. However, because many analysts had raised concerns of a double-dip, this growth is likely to be viewed as good.

    And here's David Dayen:

    And yet think about the jobs numbers for these three months. Based on the latest numbers, in those three months the economy gained 127,000, 57,000 and 103,000 jobs. That's an average of around 95,000 jobs per month, well below the increase in population. This is actually in line with a 2.5% GDP increase. That level of GDP cannot generate job growth that will bring down the unemployment rate. It's a number that allows you to tread water. Similarly, the weekly jobless number is just stalled out around 400,000 first-time jobeless per week. This may be OK for an economy at 5.6% unemployment. At 9.1% it's a bit of a disaster.

    Bold is mine in both quoted excerpts.


    What I Imagine You Would Say Obama... (none / 0) (#104)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:11:21 PM EST
     ...given the chance, Maps.

    So does that mean you (none / 0) (#106)
    by sj on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 12:15:50 PM EST
    are no longer genuinely frightened by whatever genuinely frightened you a week or so ago?

    Oh (none / 0) (#108)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 01:12:18 PM EST
    The EU could still screw everything.  Plus I am very concerned that some major bank balance sheet hide a few time bombs.  But it is decent news.

    The EU agreeing to reduce Greece's debt this week was a HUGE relief.  The banks and bond holders are taking a huge hit so it isn't a done deal, but I think they'll go along


    Agreed. It is decent news. (none / 0) (#125)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 03:34:49 PM EST
    We are still treading water in the jobs department, but the direction does appear to support avoidance of a double-dip or other serious recession.   The European have also taken a decent step,  but with their tendency toward rigidity and austerity, it is a huge one for them.   I do think we should bank on the banks having hidden "time-bombs" lurking in their balance sheets, but my hopes are that they will be managed in a way that will circumscribe the dangers.

    for the Pirate Crew, the Poker Crewe, (none / 0) (#137)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:03:05 PM EST
    And all other sundry talk lefters... let's lighten it up for a moment with this. The album version of my theme song.

    SiTE VIOLATOR (none / 0) (#149)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 11:01:21 PM EST
    Check other threads for this spammer, too.