AQAP Confirms al-Awlaki's Death and Issues New Threats

Al Qaida Arabian Peninsula released a statement today confirming the killing of cleric Anwar al-Awlawi and two others. The media quotes a sentence or two, but you don't get the real flavor unless you read the whole thing. An English translation is here. A snippet:

“The Americans killed the scholar Shaykh Anwar al-Awlaqi and Samir Khan, but they did not prove any crime they committed and they never presented any proof against them from their laws of unjust freedom. So, where is the freedom, justice, human rights and respect of freedoms they boast of? Did America become so suffocated that it contradicted—and everyday it contradicts—these principles it claims it established its country on?”

“America has failed as it has not stuck to its principles, and the Shaykh—who lived his doctrine and died for its cause—won. And like that, everyday America kills humans unjustly and aggressively. Its history is black and long and has no limit, and it lies openly that it protects human rights, justice and freedom.”


The missive says four people were killed, including al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. The other two are Abu Muhsen al-Maribi and Salem al-Marwani.

There's also references to Obama and Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh. And, they confirm they are at war with America:

“O’ proud tribes: the blood of the Shaykh and his companions will not have been spilled in vain, as behind him are our knights who do not sleep on injustice, and who will take revenge soon Allah-willing.”

“And the Americans and us are in a war, they beat us and we beat them, and the end to whoever is patient and that will gain victory.”

On a related note, testimony begins tomorrow in the Detroit trial of failed underwear bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab. The Christian Science Monitor asks if will show al-Awlaki was involved. From available information, I doubt it. I think the Government will be able to show Abdulmuttalab was inspired and encouraged by al-Awlaki to engage in jihad, and he had met with him during his training, but there will be nothing to show al-Awlaki was even aware of Abdulmutallab's particular airline plot.

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    AQ for Justice (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by koshembos on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 01:17:29 AM EST
    The world has given groups such as AQ. Hamas and Hezbollah a lot of moral support even if seems that AQ didn't. After killing 3000 people on 9/11 (no judge and jury there), AQ is looking for due process. Hamas and Hezbollah also like such arguments.

    We have a bone to pick with our government about the latest killing, but that doesn't change the fact that AQ's statement first doesn't and shouldn't scare anyone and second should be assigned no value.

    it's not about the value (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 01:59:55 AM EST
    of their position. It's about about understanding why they hate us. The value is in hearing it directly from them, without our government filtering what they say.

    You may not assign it any value but there are people who listen to them, buy into it and get recruited.  To shut your eyes and ears to what they are saying isn't the wisest course in my view.


    I don't think you understand (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 03:27:02 AM EST
    why they hate us.  I think you want to, and I think you want it to be something that we can change about ourselves that would magically make them not hate us but you would be wrong.  They hate us the same way some white people in this country hate black people, and you will not change them with anything in particular that you would do.

    Whatever you would do, everytime turn around with these terrorists it will be a different reason why they hate you today than it was tomorrow.  The truth is that hating you gives them a reason to get up in the morning and it gives them a product to sell to gain influence and money with.  

    I don't hate them, but I'm not going to stand here and not defend myself from their hatred, their plans, and their freak religious driven desire to kill me.


    Even (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 04:51:40 AM EST
    racism has its roots in something.

    Economic reasons for one.
    Sexual repression for another.

    The people that "hate us", do so for reasons that are not totally irrational. We have supported brutal regimes in some of their countries, for example.

    In others, we support economic systems which benefit us, but impoverish them.

    As people are made aware of this, admittedly sometimes by people who are themselves despots, how are they to feel about us?


    Just like it has been pointed (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 06:12:47 AM EST
    out on here that some horrific racism exists in Mexico, there is no magic land of perfect victims and everything isn't about us and everything isn't something we can "fix". What did the blacks of this country do to some whites that made them hate them other than tell them NO! to certain things?  It is intolerance and displaced rage at best.

    AQ is funded and led by people who are filthy rich, they take that money and all it can buy and 99% of the time go out and brainwash the impoverished and the uneducated.

    What did those insane old men tell those kids they sent to Mumbai to kill and destroy?  That when they died for such Jihad their faces would glow golden in death.  That didn't happen and only one of them lived to make a note of that fact and the lies he was told and brainwashed into believing.


    Bush (none / 0) (#13)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 09:59:57 AM EST
    was no different.

    I remember that after the Challenger disaster, Bush was giving a little sermon in which he said, with that stupid half-smile of his, that the crew had, gone "home".

    I do think that we have our own brand of Kamikaze indoctrination.


    Insane old men telling kids to kill (none / 0) (#33)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:16:54 AM EST
    happens here too. Nothing about that is peculiar to Arabs or Muslims.

    Well, except that the best (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:36:57 AM EST
    they can hope for is good defense lawyers in this country.  People don't argue to further enable the practice and allow it to expand and grow and tell people they will just have to figure out how to stay out of these people's way and if they are attacked and killed it is their own damn fault.

    It isn't something we culturally favor, indoctrinating terrorists and then allowing acts of terrorism to be preformed.  We would under some circumstances even call it child abuse, to raise a child in that fashion.


    I was referring to our political leaders (none / 0) (#51)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 12:34:07 PM EST
    starting wars.  Would that they needed defense lawyers.

    When innocent people are killed, wherever, by whoever, it is terrorizing to those impacted.  I don't think the innocent victims and survivors care much whether the perpetrator of the violence did or did not wear a uniform, or did or did not enjoy the support of his/her government. They are simply terrified.  As time goes by, many, most probably, become intent on revenge and seek out those who they think can effect that revenge.

    I disagree, I think we do culturally favor it, even worship it.  Movie after movie.  We just employ euphemisms to distinguish our behavior from the bad guys.

    And I agree with you, it is child abuse.


    So (none / 0) (#55)
    by jbindc on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 03:23:56 PM EST
    It's not ok for us to have reasons to "hate them", but they have legitimate reasons to hate us?



    Strawman (none / 0) (#56)
    by CST on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 03:53:52 PM EST
    Understanding people is not the same thing as agreeing with them.

    MT, that post of yours (none / 0) (#17)
    by Romberry on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:35:56 AM EST
    ...seems to me poorly informed. Your position seems to be that AQ hates us because we exist, will hate us until we don't.

    I'm not going to stand here and not defend myself from their hatred, their plans, and their freak religious driven desire to kill me.

    That's the kind of poorly informed I am talking about. In spades. Do you have any idea at all of what AQ says they want? Do you have any idea at all of what they said they were after in the 9/11 attacks? From reading your post here ("their freak religious driven desire to kill me"), I would say no on both counts.


    Al Qaeda will tell me some (none / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:46:51 AM EST
    new reason for hating me every day of the week.  They do hate me because I exist.  Are you a woman, speaking your mind like this?  They hate you too then because you exist.  I'm not kidding and I am well informed.

    You are definitely well-informed (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by sj on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:37:58 AM EST
    But like everyone, you have a filter or maybe even a blind spot.  In your case, it's easy to identify -- your blind spot is the military.  You are fiercely protective and Josh benefits greatly from being born to your family.  

    But at times you cast the protective "spell" around the entire military putting them into sort of a "they [did]|[can do] no wrong" zone.  Completely unnecessarily, in my mind.  Most of us can make the distinction between those who give the orders and those who carry them out.  And we can certainly make a distinction between the intent and the actual result.


    Let me get this straight (none / 0) (#23)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:55:00 AM EST
    if the US were to stop bombing and killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims, remove all troops and personnel like the 16k civilian state Dept employes planned for Iraq, have its companies compete honestly for oil field & other contracts, leave the selection of Arab governments to the Arab peoples, and generally mind its own business; there would still be Muslim terrorists in sufficient numbers and with sufficient means to kill "us" who would kill us just because we are Americans.

    Our refusal to do any of the above has nothing to do with ?


    No, it would not end us being (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:08:16 AM EST
    attacked and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

    And why is it that if anything of "us" touches "them" it is contamination?  And when their royal families want to visit the West or enjoy Western culture or trade with us are we supposed to refuse them access to anything of the West and refuse them access to the West in order to not anger terrorists?  And why isn't them touching us contamination too?  Because I'm not some insane religious freak murderer...that's why.  I will not enable such intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, insanity, bullying, and inhumanity as they attempt to demand from me......I will not.  Put me on the record for that.  They share this world with me, there is one globe and from a sociologists perspective they aren't entitled to such things.  They can pretend that they are and nature will take of that as it always has and does.


    Ridiculous (none / 0) (#31)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:14:53 AM EST
    we are touching them as you put it with bombs and killings on a mass scale.  Ther eis nothing royal about the wealthy oil men who have long enjoyed the support of US muscle and knwo how, nothing.

    And when they touch us with killings it sure as Hell is contamination of the worst sort just as when we do the same.

    "intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, insanity, bullying, and inhumanity" sounds a lot like the pot calling the kettle black.  I cannot imagine how an Afghani or Iraqi could imagine otherwise.

    I usually enjoy your posts & views but the ethnocentric blindness in this thread is truly mind boggling.


    Wow...ever heard of the Saudi Royal Family? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:16:53 AM EST
    If you can't become a little more factually knowledgeable it is pointless to discuss any of this with you.

    No one is royal (none / 0) (#34)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:19:54 AM EST
    and that particular bunch owes its current position to Uncle Sam.

    You have ZERO idea (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:26:10 AM EST
    obviously of any of the cultural aspects involved in any of this.

    Probably more than ZERO (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 12:06:25 PM EST
    but I take your point.  Here's my point.  I resent those who claim they do know using my tax money to kill and exposing my countrymen/women, neighbors, family members to risk, that we as Americans should all walk around with a giant bull's eye on our backs; their cultural understanding is nothing more than ethnocentric insanity. And that insanity is being employed in the service of multinational corporations and the rich folks behind them in order to make themselves ever richer and their empire, not ours, ever mor eexpansive.

    If there were not oil there we would not be there and they wouldn't give a care in the world about us.  Some of them would no doubt hate us but we'd hardly be worth the effort of killing.

    Here's the cultural aspect I get all too well.  People don't like being exploited, bullied, occupied, subjected to indiscrimnate violence and seeing their loved ones blown to bits. They don't like if they are Americans, Muslims, or anyone else you might think of. It is human nature to seek vengeance in response, only the most enlightened among us can resist the urge.

    Explain how our occupations and wars are making us safer and less exposed to terrorist threats?  Like we can't protect ourselves in the US from people overseas who want to kill us without these wars and military actions?  Of course we can and there would be much less need to do so if we stopped fueling the violence.


    The people (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 04:37:37 AM EST
    who plug their ears about why some people hate what our country is doing are our leaders.

    They have been doing so consistently for decades.

    Most of the time, they have gotten away with it.

    But I fear that that time may be drawing to a close.

    I will add also, that there isn't much in the opening paragraphs of their missive with which I can disagree.

    When they ask:

    Did America become so suffocated that it contradicted--and everyday it contradicts--these principles it claims it established its country on?"

    I can only answer, "Yes. I'm afraid so."


    I'm sorry but this is so untrue (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 06:16:42 AM EST
    Our military brings people back from Afghanistan to sometimes be able to livehere and it employs them.  If we were so horrible and despicable to them and their country why would anyone of them want to become one of us?  Why would they work for us?  Why would they struggle and fight to set up their shops close to our soldiers and have dealings with us if all we are is some scum sucking evil that was destroying them?

    It's (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:00:24 AM EST
    not black and white.

    There are plenty of Vietnamese restaurants here, but that doesn't mean that we didn't ravage their country.

    I think it is undeniable that we supported Saddam Hussein when it was in our perceived interests to do so. There is an infamous photo of Rumsfeld and Hussein glad handing each other.

    We supported the Shah of Iran. He was finally overthrown by the Iranian Revolution. Miraculously, even with that, the Iranian people demonstrated in sympathy with the United States after we were attacked on 9/11.

    But there are others who either are not so forgiving, or experienced only the downside of American power over their lives.

    Imo, I can understand why Palestinians and the people who identify with them would harbor considerable enmity towards us.

    How would we feel if some foreign power had installed and financially and militarily supported a despot in our own country?
    There are those among us who could prosper and either deal with it or make the best of it. There are others who would resort to terrorism to dislodge and defeat them.

    Even now, there are stories of the present government of Afghanistan supporting the widespread use of torture. If we are seen as allies of this bunch, that does not create friends for us. It creates enemies. Yet, we have allied ourselves with them - on the premise that the Taliban is worse. Perhaps it is, but they are locals. Let the hate flow from the people to the Taliban - the way it did in Iran.

    My point is that hate is not genetic.
    Nobody is born hating another group of people.
    It is learned behavior, imo. And to the extent that we have given people, and continue to give people, a reason to hate us, they will.


    I don't think hate is genetic either (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:38:32 AM EST
    Never said such a thing.  But children are taught to hate, we all know this.  We see and deal with it in our own country.  Please refer to Ali Salem on his "Kindergarten for Extremism" satirical work and some of the opening paragraphs

    "Give me your children, and I promise you that they will become bona fide extremists. I swear to you that any of them who show genius in his extremism will join the Supreme Academy of Terrorism, even if his terrorism ranking does not qualify him; it is enough that he is sincere in his desire, has a gift for terrorism, or is a terrorist by nature."

    "I will say to them: 'Kids, don't believe that others worship the same god as we; they are infidels who worship other deities. You must always think of ways to force them to worship whom we worship - the others are foreigners, and foreigners are infidels. The task for which I am preparing you is to purge the world of them.'"

    And the closing

    "You know, children, or you may have heard, that there is a country called Indonesia, that is the largest Muslim country in the world. Don't believe it. The proof is that they allow a woman to rule them... Look at what this woman has done: She was the first to run to America to declare that her country stands by them. I recommend to you, children, to despise women. You should fear them, because Satan's role is to seduce people. By necessity, we allow women to live, but only to bear children."

    "Dear children: 'Hate the beaches. Hate the flowers and the roses. Hate the wheat fields. Hate the trees. Hate music. Hate all manner of artistic, literary, or scientific endeavor. Hate tenderness. Hate reason and intellect. Hate your families and your countrymen. Hate others - all others. Hate yourselves. Hate your teachers. Hate me. Hate this school. Hate life and everything in it.'"

    "Go on, get to class."

    One nutty theocrat (none / 0) (#50)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 12:22:49 PM EST
    how many minutes would you have to spend on Google to find similar exhortations to kids by a right wing religious nut job here in the US?

    I am guessing you can get the job done in 5 minutes, tops.  And it won't be satire.


    Do you even know who he is? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 12, 2011 at 06:50:17 AM EST
    Do you even know what this writing was addressing in his own culture?

    To improve their individual lives (none / 0) (#24)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:56:46 AM EST
    as the perceive how best to do so.  To make a living.

    Isn't that what everybody wants? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:13:17 AM EST
    What everybody needs?  After that don't we all then need self actualization?  My culture allows that to a degree that theirs does not at this time, and I understand how and why they would seek what they seek.  In that light though how are we some cut and dry Great Satan?

    And when terrorists attack me because I took in Afghans who wanted to come with me am I supposed to be forever sorry and kiss their a$$e$ and beg and scrape and grovel on the ground for forgiveness and promise to never do such a thing again, never contaminate their people in such a way ever again?


    Of course it is (none / 0) (#40)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:34:11 AM EST
    granted what passsses for living in these places is not what I consider making a living but nevetheless you seem to suggest those cooperating with US occupiers are the only ones making a living in Afghanistan.  I beleive there are many more millions who do whatever they do there to stay fed & keep a home, despite the rainfall of bombs from us.

    As for my culture, it is mine and if others want it fine, if not they are entitled to their own.  What their culture alows them to do or not do is their concern, not mine.

    This is the first I have heard that terrorists are attacking Americans because they have taken in Afghans or children from other countries.

    Your generalizations of all who join AQ & their brethren with the few religious hard core who will always hate, as they do here, is as self fulfilling as it is disturbing. Desperate people do desperate things. The enemy of my enemy is my friend over there, and I can think of no surer way to become one's enemy than to slaughter their innocent loved ones who know little of geopolitics and care even less, even if AQ's #2 guy was in the pile of dead as he always seems to be.  


    They are called collaborators (none / 0) (#26)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:04:15 AM EST
    and there is not a single occupation in world history in which you won't find a few examples of them.

    Hardly a week goes by without reading about bombs being dropped in Afghanistan & the region on an innocent wedding party or something similar with men, women & children blown to bits as a result.  How hard is it to imagine yourself and your family in that situation and how you would react were you to survive & your loved ones didn't?

    Sure there would be isolated pockets of hatred, like there are increasingly isolated rascists here at home, but the fact that AQ is any kind of going concern has everything to do with our foreign and "defense" policies.


    No it doesn't (none / 0) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:14:36 AM EST
    It is purely religion driven.  The people who fund it all make enormous profits off of the evil Satanic West and the use of our defenses that we have allowed.

    As I said there will always be religous fanatics (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:22:14 AM EST
    but that they can recruit so many who otherwise would not pay them any mind is a result of the killing and wars we engage in.

    I wish (none / 0) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:31:26 AM EST
    I really do.

    Take a step back (none / 0) (#43)
    by sj on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:42:26 AM EST

    Look... (none / 0) (#6)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 04:39:41 AM EST
    We killed over 100,000 Iraqi civilians - supposedly in retaliation for 9/11.

    There is no morality here.


    Who from Iraq attacked us on 9/11? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 06:23:05 AM EST
    Nobody....Now there may be some Iraqis that hate us enough now to empower a serious terrorist network out of that country.  And if that happens I can see the direct cause and effect.

    But prior to and leading up to 9/11, nope, sorry.... just a couple of maniacal egos who were attacking more than just us, with too many millions and insane religious beliefs, seeing Satan everywhere.  Not much different than the craziest Christians in our own country who don't own a television and build compounds to live in to keep the evil and Satan away from them.


    I (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 09:53:49 AM EST
    respectfully disagree.

    Who enabled Saddam?

    Who is perceived as the enemy of the Palestinian people?

    Who supported the Shah of Iran?

    This all happened before 9/11.

    But we certainly agree about:

    Now there may be some Iraqis that hate us enough now to empower a serious terrorist network out of that country.  And if that happens I can see the direct cause and effect.

    I just see some causes and effects that precede 9/11. I'm not excusing anybody.

    But I think it is dangerous for us to not realize that all of the enmity aimed at is not irrational. And that there is something we can do about it. We can demand that our national leadership changes course.

    Just imo of course.


    That is the $64,000 question, (none / 0) (#16)
    by NYShooter on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:22:05 AM EST
    isn't it?

    Do they hate us because we enabled their oppressors, or do they hate us for being not Muslims?


    Your religion is not relevant (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Romberry on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:50:17 AM EST
    AQ doesn't care what your religion is or isn't. Whether or not you're a Muslim is irrelevant. The demands of AQ aren't about converting the US. Repeatedly, the demands have boiled down to one basic thing and that thing is for the US to stop interfering in the affairs of their nation(s).

    What I am seeing here today from a few commenters strikes me as a restatement of GW Bush's idiocy, "they hate us for our freedoms."

    Anyone that wants a refresher of what it was that AQ was after (at least in the beginning) could do much worse than revisiting this diary at DailyKOS from 2004: Terrorist Strategy 101, a quiz

    Bottom line? They don't want to take over the US. They want to be left alone.


    AQ threatens individual safety (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:09:12 AM EST
    AQ has never been a threat to the US as a sovereign country, our Constitution, or to our way of life.  Bush's response, however, continued as it has been by Obama, is a different story.

    Even with AQ numbers as they are today one is far more likely to be murdered in a mugging or  something like that.


    To AQ I am an infidel (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:24:32 AM EST
    And if you don't get that you haven't been listening because you didn't want to hear.

    To many evangelicals I am an infidel (none / 0) (#49)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 12:16:19 PM EST
    I don;t care so long as they don;t kill me.  And there are plenty of other less costly & far more effective ways of preventing those who think in such terms from killing others, ways that do not involve killing & thereby inciting their otherwise unconcerned neighbors.

    How about Canada? (none / 0) (#52)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 12:56:01 PM EST
    Filled with non-Muslim Infidels.
    And, I would argue, a higher standard of living than we enjoy.

    Yet, they don't seem to be a prominent target of AQ.

    People like Obama and Bush who proclaim their "Christianity" through a bullhorn while killing Muslim civilians certainly fan the flames and stimulate an "infidel" mentality in our adversaries.


    Do you think they haven't killed (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 12, 2011 at 06:55:29 AM EST
    any Canadians?  Do you think that they specifically wouldn't?  If they were planning a bombing and they discovered that a group of Canadians were going to be in that area at that time....would they then call the whole thing off in order to not kill non-believing Canadians?  Do you read anything that their Mullahs preach?  The one thing that makes it okay to target me and kill me is that I am a non-believer.  That is the one identifier that makes me murder worthy.

    How about the Dutch?  Would they kill the Dutch for being non-Muslim infidels?  Hmmmmmmmm....I wonder?


    I don't really (none / 0) (#59)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 12, 2011 at 04:55:58 PM EST
    know what our disagreement is about.

    I can agree that certain Muslims are indoctrinated to think of any non-Muslim as a devil to be incinerated.

    The Christians were pretty good at that during the Crusades and the Inquisition.

    Some religions get corrupted from time to time by the unscrupulous. The KKK is an even more recent example.

    But I submit that the reason that some Muslims might want to target Americans has more to do trying to make us stop killing them. And they are moving into doing that by any means necessary.
    Desperate people can do despicable things. But I wish we weren't so hellbent on creating desperate people. Economically, politically and militarily.


    The initial reason for targeting (none / 0) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 12, 2011 at 08:16:17 PM EST
    Americans had nothing to do with our killing of Muslims.  Is it a possible recruiting tool now?  Yea, maybe.  But I also hold up for scrutiny that some branches of the Taliban in Afghanistan have said that if they had known that sheltering and nurturing Al Qaeda was going to bring soldiers to their doorsteps challenging them and their authority they would have had none of it.  And as we begin to leave.....now they know

    Other things that we have done have also been more of a deterrent than a recruitment tool.  It is ugly but also true that Osama bin Laden and Al Awlaki being dealt with as deftly as they were is also a form of self defense as well as a potent deterrent to future terrorists.  You would at this point literally need to be out of your fricken mind to attempt to notably recruit, train, and develop terrorist networks to attack the United States, any member of NATO, or their allies.

    As for Christians....they aren't doing those things now and if Christians were building, recruiting, and training terrorists and creating terrorist networks they should be treated the exact same way.  I am already biased against them because of some of the things they have done to my own country, and Christian extremism is already behind the murder of several doctors and the bombing of abortion clinics.  I wouldn't have any mercy greater for any of them in some foreign country recruiting and training terrorists to attack us and other democracies than what I would have for a Muslim terrorist.  I think I would have even less.  I know them a whole lot better and I know how full of total crap and narcissism they are on a very up close and personal level.


    They often find their own opressors at this time (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:44:32 AM EST
    As we saw in Iraq, when the tyrant is removed other tyrants wanted his place and the people empowered and fought for tyrants.  This isn't all about us, and when we have failed states in many places, that has in our recent history bred hideouts and training camps for terrorists and enabled innocents to be killed in well planned terrorist attacks.

    And this is not to say (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:48:41 AM EST
    that what we did in Iraq was okay.  We had no business there.  But I don't believe that Saddam was their leader because of us, not for one minute.

    We had a lot to do with Saddam taking ove Iraq (none / 0) (#48)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 12:13:14 PM EST
    he would not have gotten there without US support at the time.  Would some other thug? Undoubtedly. Saddam's Iraq at one time had the 3rd or 4th largest Air Force, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

    Not my $64k question (none / 0) (#46)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:49:13 AM EST
    mine is how to stop the killing.  Keeping hate from progressing into killing others should be the goal.  Hard for me to see how our killing so many innocent people in pursuit of the relative few bad guys does that.

    They'll always be people preaching hate.  Wise policies should insure those preachers do not attract followers.


    Do they (none / 0) (#54)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 03:13:13 PM EST
    hate Canadians for not being Muslims?

    Uh, I believe their grievances were stated (none / 0) (#25)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:58:39 AM EST
    and they included most prominently US occupation of Muslim holy lands.

    It is just one silly justification (none / 0) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:25:09 AM EST
    and if it wasn't that it would be something else.

    One person's silly justification (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by sj on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:44:38 AM EST
    is another person's unilateral defense of the military.  See how that works?

    Silly? (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 11:44:45 AM EST
    Imagine armed Muslims (or Russians, Chinese whoever the bad guy of the year is) occupying DC or NYC?  Silly to be concerned about that?  Imagine if Muslims were occupying the Vatican.  Silly to Catholics?  

    when I read someone as articulate and thoughtful as you espousing this I really think it is hopeless.

    We are nothing great, just people like all the rest.  We have no greater entitlement to anything, we just happen to have more financial and military resources and the inclination to use both to expand our power.

    You want silly justification?  How about pointing to a band of rag tag, religiouly fueled anarchists using a $1000 worth of implements obtainable at any hardware store to faciliate, aided by the not inconsiderable incompetence of our police/ structure, mass murder as a reason to enage the greatest militry might in world history in two wars resulting in the deaths of probably near a million human beings, and the maiming of many, many more?

    That's not silly, that is horrific.


    yeah, i was kind of wondering (none / 0) (#1)
    by cpinva on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 10:24:17 PM EST
    when that trial was held myself. a legal opinion isn't due process, by a long shot. have we now regressed back to the "wanted, dead or alive" phase?

    obama has established a couple of bad precedents, first with his uniliteral decision to attack libya, and now with assassinating american citizens without even the benefit of a trial in absentia.

    Imo... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by lentinel on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 04:57:28 AM EST
    ultimately, Obama is letting American citizens know that he will "take out" American citizens whom he considers to be dangerous.

    This is not a very appetizing prospect.

    And, it sends a chilling message to American citizens who wish to challenge the grip that right wing ideology has on our government.

    National Guardsmen fired upon and killed students on their campus at Kent State in 1970.

    Our government can designate whomever it wishes as an enemy, without charge or trial, and kill them.

    That is the lesson I get from this recent enterprise by Obama.


    And, sadly, we (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by KeysDan on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:01:11 AM EST
    seem to have gone, in large measure, from acceptance to some concerned citizens who have been reduced to begging for information, such as the legal opinions justifying the killing of American citizens.   And, even that has been to no avail---just trust, no need to ask, let alone verify.

    You, mostly alone, against the multitude of naysayers.

    You are correct, of course. It is our very presence that causes the hatred, because we have power, and power is what they long for. We have the most power so they hate us the most.

    Those with the power refuse to give up their power to AQ, etc., and AQ tries to take the power from those who have it through violence.