Talibans, American And Foreign

Andrew Sullivan:

In New York, this [the Koran burning Christian cleric] is demanding a meeting with the Imam of the Park51 mosque, while not quite canceling plans for a Koran burning. And so one group of fanatics reveals a religious mindset that immediately threatens mass violence if one nutjob in America performs a foul stunt of bigotry; and another group of fanatics tries to leverage that violence to prevent a perfectly legitimate religious center being built in New York City, a position actually endorsed by the leading figures of one US political party.

So Islamism, via Christianism, threatens Islam, while Christian extremism deeply wounds and slanders actual Christianity. All of it brings the world to the edge of violence and war that kills innocents and makes the work of the troops even harder than it already is. Now, of course, Jones has every right to do whatever he wants in an America with a First Amendment. But think of a GI in Kandahar right now. You really think he needed this?

How very intemperate of Sullivan.

Speaking for me only

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    I keep thinking of the shell-shocked (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:00:25 AM EST
    look on the face of the well-meaning local iman that was trying to work with Jones yesterday. Last night when whatever half-baked 'agreement' they had was falling apart he was on the local news here, and he just looked defeated by the insanity.

    thought (none / 0) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:09:52 AM EST
    the same thing.  

    He's right (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CST on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    even a stopped clock.

    Yes he's a hypocrit.  But at least this time he's right.

    what a nice way to celebrate (none / 0) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:10:21 AM EST
    Massoud Day.
    I get to agree with Sully.

    Intemperate :) (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:15:18 AM EST
    Thank God this is almost over, one more day.  My spouse was gone all day at work yesterday and then all last night at school.  We didn't talk about Mr. Jones until this morning.  He too said that nobody in the halls of U.S. power should "legitimize" whackjob Jones any further.  Any "Christian" not condemning his actions today is no better than Muslims who won't take a stand against Muslim extremists and terrorism so stand up and be counted or don't and be counted.  I like that.  I think I'm onboard for that.

    And as far as soldiers dying for Jones' freedom, well that is the soldier and freedom breaks.  Everyone has done what they could do, and if Jones wants to be nuts and thoughtless I guess he can go for it.

    The Vatican (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:31:59 AM EST
    Has come out strongly against it, and many high ranking Protestant church leaders and Evangelucal leaders have come out publicly against it.

    The Vatican has a lot to atone for (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:38:42 AM EST
    Atone away :)

    I'm waiting for Evangelicals to show up to this Christian dance.  You know...the kind of Christianity that my country recogonizes......not one of the kinds of Christianity my country doesn't recognize :)  I have my sharpie in hand, waiting to write their names on their name tags or put them on the absent list.


    Here ya go (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by hookfan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:54:15 AM EST
    National Assoc. of Evangelicals condemn proposed burning of Quran-- link

    No names though (3.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:22:21 AM EST
    A faceless organization is not going to cut it.  It isn't okay to cower behind a faceless organization and not step forward and be known in my book.

    Even The Friendly Atheist (none / 0) (#46)
    by hookfan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:34:56 AM EST
    knows better:
      "We have to recognize that fighting fire with fire only builds a bigger fire," said Joel Hunter, Senior Pastor of Northland, A Church Distributed, in Orlando, Fla., and member of the NAE Board of Directors. "Love is the water that will eventually quench the destruction." Link

    Christrianity Today (none / 0) (#51)
    by hookfan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:38:21 AM EST
    names names:Link

    Do I go on (none / 0) (#54)
    by hookfan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:40:02 AM EST
    or do you cede your prejudice?

    No....each church is its own beast (none / 0) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:49:11 AM EST
    If 75% of the nation is Christian, how many church leaders have I not heard from on this?  The New Christianity that Glenn Beck claims IS the Christianity of my country now resembles nothing of the Christianity I grew up with.....that time tested version after years and years of power struggle and sin and death and destruction.  The New Christians have gone back to the dark ages and they deserve to be told so IMO.  There is nothing Christian about them according to my Christian upbringing.  And fire?  I have an FBI and I have rule of law in this country so NO...I don't fear their fire.  This isn't Afghanistan.

    Can't help ya there (none / 0) (#66)
    by hookfan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:01:21 PM EST
    Would take too long to find each pastor of Evangelical stripe that has/is condemning this. You can do your own further research on this-- my old fingers are tired! But it's clear-- it's not just a nameless organization condemning this. There are many stripes of Evangelicalism. They all don't deserve the painting with Capt and your (apparent) fear brush.

    I'm not afraid of them (none / 0) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:06:42 PM EST
    It isn't about fear.  It is about religion and power and demystification in my book.

    Seems to be (none / 0) (#73)
    by hookfan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:30:14 PM EST
    a lot of collateral damage from the wide swath from your demystification pixie dust. . . much of it undeserved. Heck, even the Brethren (ain't nobody more conservative than them) are coming out condemning this (link). I can go on and on. . . like Mennonites reaching out to the Islamic community in support and seeking peace. . .Mayhaps, to a small degree, the threatened burning will have unintended interfaith positive consequences.

    Completely choosing to not (none / 0) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:41:32 PM EST
    notice the wide swath of collateral damage that the Vatican brought to children in our own country, and the crazy Evangelicals too.  Just my opine, but religion always costs more than it gives.  People could just be humanitarians and give...and some do.  I don't have much faith in organized religion, the history of organzing God doesn't have a great track record where corruption and evil are concerned. And I don't have to either.  Attending a church is the path of the one attending, it isn't my path.  Making claims to their Christianity and their Christlikeness, I only challenge them to show the rest of us this deep Christlike behavior.  If you are all such terrific Christians let's see it.

    And many people will show what they are made of.  Some, a few, lead lives that I note to be Christlike.  Why is it such a big deal to you to ask Christians to come forward and denounce Terry Jones?


    It's not a big deal (none / 0) (#81)
    by hookfan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:54:44 PM EST
    What is a big deal is condemning a large swath of people for NOT doing so, when many actually have. That's dishonest and prejudicial.



    Well, since you have not stepped forward (none / 0) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:19:51 PM EST
    and condemned those who are making the death threats against Pastor Petrol and his flock of Bics, by your reasoning it is clear that you support those people making the death threats.  

    I am not of that faith (none / 0) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:42:52 PM EST
    Non responsive. (none / 0) (#86)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 01:11:44 PM EST
    a response (none / 0) (#87)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 01:22:26 PM EST
    not condemning someone for reacting to a brutal personal insult is not the same as not condemning someone for making the insult.

    but ftr let me be on record as condemning death threats.   from anyone.


    and any death threats.

    Although, imo, the distiction you make is irrelevent.


    I haven't seen any evidence of death threats (none / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:40:46 PM EST
    Who is making death threats?  Terry Jones is already on the record as a liar.  I have never stood for death threats though from anyone.  I am on the record for that too.

    Well, thank god for that. I was worried. (none / 0) (#99)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:57:02 PM EST
    Is it just TL, or is it common elsewhere to righteously presume negative things about other people merely because those people haven't sufficiently denied those things to your satisfaction?

    Not just TL... (none / 0) (#100)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 03:32:37 PM EST
    hasn't that been the complaint about the entire muslim world since 9/11?  That they haven't sufficiently denounced the very select few crazies who share their religion to our satisfaction?

    And vice versa, that Joe Blow American hasn't sufficiently denounced crazy American foreign policy the last 60 years to the muslim world's satisfaction?  

    I, for one, claim ownership or responsibility for nobody but me and me dog.  Though I guess there is no getting around responsibility for the taxes I kick in....0.000000000001 percent or whatever it is.  But aside from that "it ain't me babe."...:)


    You got it, my point exactly. (none / 0) (#102)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 03:41:17 PM EST
    I haven't heard any Germans condemning the Holocaust lately, so I guess we should righteously presume they support it. Right?

    Whatever, I guess some people just have no perspective on some subjects...


    I think Germany is the only (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 03:51:09 PM EST
    country that's actually prosecuted Holocaust deniers
    and has been one of the main driving forces behind the push to insure that victims of the Holocaust have been monetarily compensated as much as possible. It would be difficult to make the claim that they've been anything like quiescent today about the events of the thirties and forties..

    Top Evangelical leaders (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:54:53 AM EST
    Have been calling and trying to talk with Jones for days now.

    And while the Vatican may have a lot to atone for, the Catholic Church has also done tons of good work through it's Catholic Charities and many, many works for social justice.

    Maybe this whole thing can help start a dialogue.,,.


    like this guy? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:57:55 AM EST
    Conservative leader: Treat Muslims like neo-Nazis
    By Jason Hancock 9/10/10 9:00 AM

    One of the leaders of a group allegedly spending hundreds of thousands of dollars bankrolling an effort to oust three Iowa Supreme Court justices believes America needs to treat Muslims the way Germany treats neo-Nazis: with police raids and incarceration.

    Bryan Fischer, the director of issue analysis for government and public policy at the American Family Association (AFA), says whatever the U.S. government does in efforts to "make it unthinkable for America's youth to join a white supremacist group," they should use "to make it as unthinkable for a resident of America to embrace Islam."

    Sure (none / 0) (#26)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:02:21 AM EST
    There are loonies of all stripes.  This guy is now getting his 15 minutes because of the focus on Jones

    So?  We're now going to lump 80% of the country in with a few fringe nuts?  


    got a link (none / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:03:21 AM EST
    for that number?

    Excuse me for rounding (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:08:50 AM EST
    76% of the US population identifies as Christian.

    See the US Census Bureau


    well (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:16:12 AM EST
    Focus on Family is a powerful lobbying organization.
    they are not the lunatic fringe.  well,  they ARE but unfortunately they are in the halls of power and not so easily dismissed.

    excuse me (none / 0) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:17:37 AM EST
    the American Family Assoc.  or AFA.

    Not at all (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:15:04 AM EST
    But lets not be afraid as a Christian nation to go on the record recording our brands of Christianity as being AGAINST such "religious" acts that resemble Terry Jones' actions.  We don't have to leave this fight up to just a few brave Christians out there.  That's pretty weenie, and slacker too.

    That's cool (none / 0) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:06:11 AM EST
    I need names though.  I'm making lists :)

    Pope Benedict XVI (none / 0) (#33)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:09:37 AM EST
    While it is true (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:13:34 AM EST
    that Catholicism is a evangelizing religion, I'm pretty sure the use of "Evangelicals" in the way you did above does not include the Catholic Church.

    Surely, "Christian Conservatives" do not think of themselves as aligned with the Catholic Church.


    certainly they (none / 0) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:15:02 AM EST
    do not.  

    Actually (none / 0) (#93)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:39:52 PM EST
    some do. the Rick Santorum kind of Catholic or "evangelical Catholics" they are called. Frankly, from knowing many Catholics from my childhood, this whole "Evangelical Catholic" thing kind of blows my mind.

    It does mine too (none / 0) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:41:33 PM EST
    I know of few of them though

    all the evangelicals I know (none / 0) (#96)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:43:20 PM EST
    and I know way to many, would tell you they have as much common cause with the pope as they would have with Ru Paul or Kim Jong Il.

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 03:55:09 PM EST
    I know those too but to my surprise there are some evangelicals that have found common cause with Catholics. I know some Catholics that are huge fans of James Dobson.

    I've hear the semi-informed spiel many times (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 03:35:00 PM EST
    Catholics are idolaters who "worship the Virgin Mary, saints and the Pope"..etc. They may think they're following the teachings of Christ, but they're not..

    We've got a pocket of those type of evangelicals around here. They picket the local book store whenever a new Harry Potter book comes out (it promotes interest in the occult), and they try to hand out those lurid Jack Chick booklets to little kids on Halloween (another occult worshiper day).. And of course, Rapture and Tribulation are at hand in the ME and liberal "secularists" who are trying to negotiate peaceful settlements in the ME are going against God's will..

    This isn't that "fringe" an element imo: once you know the dog whistle words, you realize how much the Bill O'Reillys and Laura Ingrahams and Dr Lauras are tailoring their message to them.



    bonne chance (3.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:41:59 AM EST
    with that too

    What chance? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:47:42 AM EST
    That I'll spell their names right?  I'm taking names for show AND no show :)  Anyone who is a no show is not patriotic....maybe I should call it The unAmerican List?

    The feds probably already have that list (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by republicratitarian on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:09:20 AM EST
    Ha! (none / 0) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:23:20 AM EST
    dont think it will be over (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:19:17 AM EST
    after 9/11.  I think if he doesnt get everything he wants he will still do it.

    I think he is likely to still do it too (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:21:32 AM EST
    at some point.  Whenever he decides he isn't getting enough attention.  At least if 9/11 is past MAYBE he will have less incentive and less press.

    bonne chance (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:23:58 AM EST
    with that

    I'm tired (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by david mizner on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:25:32 AM EST
    of war - mongers like Sullivan (and Petreus and Obama) pretending they care about the opinion of Muslims.

    What do you think Muslims in the Middle East and Central Asia care more about? A wacko, widely condemned preacher threatening to burn Koran thousands of miles away or the killing of thousands of innocent Muslims.

    Great minds... (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:34:47 AM EST
    think alike Dave!

    And it may be an old point...but worth stating again I think.  None of our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting for our freedoms, not Jones' freedom, not mine, not yours...the only people I see threatening our freedoms reside in DC and the statehouse...no one in Iraq or Afghanistan is threatening our freedom...can we put this falsehood to bed too?


    Iraq I can agree with wholeheartedly (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:47:32 PM EST
    however in Afghanistan, at least initially- this was in no way true- The Taliban was utilizing AQ as a de facto paramilitary wing or at the very least an ally- granting them safe haven in exchange for various military benefits (such as killing its local enemies- see the assasination of a Northern Alliance leader in the Spring of 2001 by an Al Queda suicide bombing team who posed as Journalists) it was a just war (again initially) under virtually every accepted just war doctrine, something reflected by the massive international support for the invasion even within primarily Muslim nations. Now, you could argue that a continued US presence in Afghanistan serves no purpose, and while disagreeing I would be sympathetic to such an argument but its almost impossible to argue that the initial invasion in late 2001 was unjustified and/or unsupportable.

    Very very well said (none / 0) (#97)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:44:14 PM EST
    Nope can't do it (none / 0) (#16)
    by hookfan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:46:00 AM EST
    'cause it would restrict our freedom to support corruption link

    i don't know about the leaders ... (none / 0) (#62)
    by nyrias on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:52:30 AM EST
    but given all the death threats and protests by Muslims ALL OVER THE WORLD .. over some CARTOONS, i am not so sure middle east muslims don't care about koran burning on the other side of the world.

    Kind of had enough... (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:29:44 AM EST
    of the old "endangering the troops" argument being dragged out by war mongers when it is convenient, and ignored the rest of the time.

    Occupation...the # 1 endangerer of troops.  

    It is a different sort of endangering though (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:44:02 AM EST
    kdog.  We are running a COIN operation, that is based on mutual respect and trust and face to face hands on living.  Everyone outside the wire.  What Jones is doing sabotages everything we work for.  No matter what happens soldiers will die, and soldiers are prepared to die.  What Jones does endangers more than just soldier lives.  He endangers all lives in Afghanistan and he fuels the extremists and those people have killed more innocent Afghans than we can imagine.

    People with guns, ied's, drones,... (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:56:43 AM EST
    and assorted weaponry and the willingness to use them endanger lives.

    All I see Jones endangering are books and his reputation...everything else is a big stretch.

    Besides, the hate and desire for blood in extremist heart's is all the fuel they need to get to spilling blood.  If not Jones, some cartoonist, or a woman without a bee-keeper suit would set them off.  I get that Jones ain't helping, but sh*t there are many on all sides who ain't helping to make the world a better place...he's not special.


    I know that peace is good (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:01:24 AM EST
    Because Afghanistan knew no peace, that brought me 9/11 as well as terrorist attacks all over the world.  I just don't fold to bullies like the Taliban and Al Qaeda kdog.  And they linked my destiny with Afghanistan's destiny.

    Who do you mean by "they"... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:07:14 AM EST
    the Taliban/AQ killers or our genius leaders who went over their to avenge 9/11 and/or make some money via occupation?

    Initially (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:49:40 PM EST
    the former- I'm sorry but post-9/11 not acting to remove/kill AQ and the Taliban was virtually unthinkable.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:23:11 AM EST
    Living downtown, the thing that messed me up the most was not the sound of the plane hitting the WTCs but the months of Police roadblocks and checkpoints that I needed to pass through just to get home.

    And then there was the Patriot Act and the AUMF.

    And the right wing fearmongering which made everyone really nervous.

    OK, I have to admit that watching the people who looked the size of insects, jumping out a little hole in the tower before it fell, because the floor and everything else was too hot to stand on, and the muffled thud when they hit the roof below, was also pretty traumatic.


    Once again because people forget (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:36:25 AM EST
    We are not over there alone.  We were not the only ones who got hit or who were in danger.  This is an ISAF mission.  This is a NATO-led security mission.

    Riiiight (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:52:53 AM EST
    Oh, the arm twisting....

    Austria has 3 troops, Iceland has 5 troops, Greece has 75 troops....,

    And the war on Iraq was also multinational... lol

    And the US 10x more than any other country on its defense budget.

    And the US is the largest supplier of weapons in the world.


    Arm twisting? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:59:34 AM EST
    Right....because you were there.  We make up 65% of the force...everybody else makes up the rest.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:18:41 PM EST
    If all the troops get nuked we lose 78,430 soldiers... and 16,000 contractors who are US citizens.

    Great Britian loses 9,500

    Germany loses 4,590

    This is our war.... We are number 1.

    If 9 out of 10 people attacking you were Russians, you would blame the Russians.


    Yes and if (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:54:45 PM EST
    Russia was attacked the main responding force would probably be Russian as well. I don't mean to demagouge on 9-11 but it was primarily an attack on the US.

    BS (none / 0) (#84)
    by squeaky on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:57:49 PM EST
    It was a criminal event. Had nothing to do with Iraq or Afghanistan.

    Our response was a war crime, and continues to be so.

    BTW- wtf do a bunch of Saudis have to do with the Taliban, or Iraq?


    Now the troops are getting nuked :) (none / 0) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:43:46 PM EST
    Um what (none / 0) (#80)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:53:25 PM EST
    seriously, the contrast between Iraq and Afghanistan is pretty stark in terms of Multinational forces- but hey use the numbers- after all smaller nations with very small militaries should be expected to make disproportionately large contributions in order to give the appearance of a multinational force- also I like how you ignored the main sector of the EUs contingent (France, UK, Germany) as well as that of our Northern Neighbor.

    About guns and names: (none / 0) (#49)
    by the capstan on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:37:18 AM EST
    1.  My paper says Jones and his assistant preacher have been wearing guns on thier hips.  (Think we should attach one to Jesus on Easter?)

    2. Bob Jones III, president of the fundamentalist university in SC, says that while the Fla. Jones has the right to burn the Quran, he (the SC Jones) would not do so.  The Muslims, he adds, "are people, like unconverted Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, who need the Lord."  (Even if I punctuated that sentence correctly I still would not understand it.

    Holy cow (none / 0) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:38:42 AM EST
    He is going for the Wyatt Earp look.

    Huh (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:50:43 PM EST
    I kind of figured he was going for the Tom of Finland look.

    thanks (none / 0) (#85)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    for the mental image of hot holy justice

    "Wearing guns on their hips..." (none / 0) (#109)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:32:29 PM EST
    I'm pro 2nd amendment rights, to the point of foolishness probably, but I've gotta admit, everytime I see somebody wearing a sidearm I'm pretty sure I'm looking at a bully or an a***e.  

    how about this (none / 0) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:50:35 AM EST
    how about instead of arresting him for precrime the administration and the media who care about this help to organize a massive counter protest?

    Can I brag a little on my alma mater? (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Peter G on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 09:31:53 PM EST
    Here's my idea of another really great response, designed and promoted by the Haverford College library:  Campus wide invitation extended to come by the library and examine their collection of Qurans - read, admire, enjoy, appreciate.  Also promoted, a group started by a member of the class of '78, "Christians Reading the Koran."  The true spirit of the Quaker college.

    I think this is a terrific idea! (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:58:00 AM EST
    Jones was complaining this morning about people protesting him.  He was actually whining because he says he hasn't even "done it" yet and people are protesting.  Seemingly he is beginning to understand that a Wyatt Earp stash can only carry you so far.

    a MASSIVE (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:01:11 AM EST
    counter protest in his yard.

    with people who say they will stay as long as it takes to make sure he is covered if he decides to do it.


    This is brilliant (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:10:47 AM EST
    This is what the Patriot Guard Riders do when they deal with Westboro Church and their demonstrations during soldier funerals.  Usually those attending the funeral never even see a Westboro Church member because they have huge banners they hold up between the protest and funeral.  And they do all this nonviolently day after day.

    I have to say (none / 0) (#83)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:56:38 PM EST
    its truly inspiring the degree to which mourners families have contained themselves- I can't even imagine how hard it is not to play into the WBCs hands and start wailing on one of the Phelps' clan.

    The Phelps clan is so strange (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 10:25:55 PM EST
    I did wonder what I would do if I had to deal with them because we have agreed that if he dies in a war zone and active duty I would bury him at Arlington.  I think his kids would need that distinction losing their dad in such a way.  Outside of that though, I want something as civilian as possible if it is me having to deal with it first.  I did think I could snap on someone from Westboro before the Patriot Guard Riders signed up to tend to this.  Now that they handle certain visual aspects though I would be fine.  The Westboro crew is crazy, and I'm full of gratitude to the Patriot Guard Riders for all they do in providing visible boundaries and buffer zones between the crazy and grieving.  I could handle it now with them on the job.

    you want some free speech? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:05:01 AM EST
    I got yer free speech right here Terry

    If we quit covering it and talking about it (none / 0) (#39)
    by republicratitarian on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:15:49 AM EST
    it would be a non-issue. Of course it's too late for that and it wouldn't happen anyway.

    lets have a (none / 0) (#72)
    by dead dancer on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:24:32 PM EST
    "restoring honor" day.

    No idiots making speeches, just people with signs and a few bibles burnt.


    Yeah (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:11:38 AM EST
    Everyone wants to use 9/11 these days to advertise their political message.

    Free air time.

    It is like the prison joke, where the jokes were so old and retold so many times that when a joke was told, all that had to be said was the number assigned to it...

    The opportunists don't even have to use the punchline, 9/11, anymore.

    Jones isn't a "lone nut (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:36:03 AM EST
    with thirty followers" or whatever; anyone who really thinks that spin encompasses the entire reality of the situation hasn't been paying much attention for the last nine years..

    Jones is more like Bill Kristol and Pam Geller's delinquent, slightly retarded, little brother: expressing the essential values of the family in a heavy-handed but generally pre-approved manner..

    The primary object, again, being the demonization of a billion people and the further fanning of the flames of the neocon's beloved Clash of Civilizations, which cant carry on without keeping the christian fundamentalist base in holy war mode; which is the job of the Joneses of the country..


    who wants to bet (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:41:10 AM EST
    his attendance increases after this?
    in germany he had a church with hundreds.  given time I expect he will here as well.

    Some people (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:08:03 PM EST
    know what it takes to make themselves recession proof :)

    Like it or not .. (none / 0) (#58)
    by nyrias on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:46:29 AM EST
    it worked perfectly for Jones. How else would he be on CNN? Not in a million years.

    As the old saying goes, there is no bad publicity. Who want to bet that he is getting more followers, and donations?

    I don't even think that he truly believes in what he is proposing. All he is doing is trying to provoke the muslims.

    And boy, are they a bunch easy to provoke. Just draw some cartoons and you will get death threats.


    Bear in mind (none / 0) (#110)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Sep 11, 2010 at 10:15:45 AM EST
    Islam completely prohibits images of Mohammed, and the strictest Muslims prohibit any images of any human beings at all.  So satirical images of Mohammed made and circulated by non-believers is felt to be pretty profoundly offensive.

    And let's not forget the hysteria about the African portrait of the Virgin Mary that incorporated -- entirely respectfully -- some bits of precious elephant dung.  Giuliani tried to close down the museum that hung the picture, and I'm quite certain there were plenty of death threats.

    So not clear to me that "we" are any less easy to provoke, in reality.


    BS (none / 0) (#111)
    by squeaky on Sat Sep 11, 2010 at 10:53:45 AM EST
    Why do you continue to repeat false stories about Islam.

    The depiction of Mohammed is not completely prohibited as you insist. Many fundies believe that to be true, but it is a not widespread tenet, unless you are counting Christians and others who wish to be offensive.

    There is no prohibition in the Koran about images of Mohammed.  


    Rush and Terry (none / 0) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:26:58 AM EST

    Terry Jones, the Florida pastor threatening to burn a Koran tomorrow on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, was a high school classmate of Rush Limbaugh.

    Imagine that! (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:37:31 AM EST
    You find the most amazing stuff.

    Google News (none / 0) (#57)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:44:51 AM EST
    Who uses google? (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:50:45 AM EST

    Quite a coincidence.. (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:38:53 AM EST
    I wonder if he and rectal cysts ever kept in touch over the years..

    the water (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:42:04 AM EST
    you think?

    Yeah, they used to water board (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:55:08 AM EST
    each other after school..the way some school mates do..

    Central High School... (none / 0) (#59)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 11:48:24 AM EST
    ...in Cape Girardeau, MO to be exact.  Just barely above the Mason-Dixon line.

    A couple of Dixie wannabes (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 12:03:46 PM EST
    Why did you redact (none / 0) (#88)
    by Gisleson on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 01:42:01 PM EST
    the words "cult leader" from Sullivan's post? The Rev. Terry Jones leads a 50-member congregation whose members are instructed to leave their families and friends behind. Jones' church has protested alongside Fred Phelps's crazies. Jones has a tangled web of real estate investments and uses his church as a tax shelter for his for profit furniture business.

    In what way is Jones' church NOT a cult?

    Just ID-ing which cult (none / 0) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 01:45:08 PM EST
    Not an editorial comment intended.

    Well, I was disappointed (none / 0) (#91)
    by Gisleson on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:23:51 PM EST
    I was hoping Sully had something in violation of TL posting rules.

    I think the left is way too slow to call cult leaders out for what they are. Rev. Jones' record is pretty abysmal, and his credibility shrivels when scrutinized.


    agreed (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:33:17 PM EST
    but a question, were is the line between cult and legit?  scientologists?  moonies?  mormons?

    I read this (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 02:46:44 PM EST
    And I can't help but think to myself, "Wow man, we are really really really nutso."  That is a huge list of certifiable :)

    intemperate you say? (none / 0) (#105)
    by cpinva on Fri Sep 10, 2010 at 03:55:12 PM EST
    i say blind. let me put it this way, the GI should never have been in kandahar to begin with. this was the first illegal invasion, putting our troops in harm's way to satisfy the egos of a few.

    all this nonsense about mr. jones and his book burning, doesn't negate those facts.