Rudy Giuliani's Daughter Arrested for Shoplifting

Rudy Giuliani's daughter, Caroline Giuliani, a 20 year old Harvard student, was arrested Wednesday afternoon for shoplifting $100 of cosmetics from Sephora on the Upper East Side of New York, near her mother's apartment.

The store says when it learned who she was, it tried to call of the cops and told them it didn't want to press charges. The cops said it was too late.

The store video reportedly shows Ms. Giuliani putting about 5 different products in her pockets. She was given a desk ticket and the DA will decide whether to file charges. [More...]

Happily, Rudy's no longer in charge of New York, and his tough on minor crimes and quality of life policing strategy are no longer the law of the land. But, even though first time shoplifters usually get a deferred adjudication, so they can get counseling and avoid jail and a permanent conviction on their record, is that the right outcome for his daughter? Or, because of her father's last name or because she goes to Harvard, should she get a complete pass?

Rudy asks everyone to respect his daughter's privacy. He and his children have had strained relationships for a long time. Caroline joined a Facebook group for Obama when Rudy ran for President. His son Andrew has publicly described their estrangement. It was Rudy's ex-wife, Donna Hanover, who responded by going to the police station yesterday. Does Caroline even want Rudy speaking out on her behalf, even if it's just to ask to respect her privacy?

Back in 2004, I agreed to guest-post for a friend at his very conservative blog while he was on vacation. After watching a debate on TV with Dick Cheney, I wrote:

I was watching Dick Cheney and trying to picture what it would have been like to grow up with him as my father. I mean, forget about what he was saying, just his visage and demeanor. He was so stern looking. And his tone was so authoritarian. ...

...So here’s my mental picture of me at 15, as a daughter of Cheney: I’m a runaway, standing at the downtown Port Authority. I’ve got a tattoo on my ass, a needle in my arm, a cigarette dangling from my lip, and I’m just waiting for the next Midnight Cowboy to roll off the bus. Sorry, but politics aside, doesn’t the guy just give you the creeps?

I feel the same way about Rudy. I hope for his daughter's sake she doesn't feel that way, and that if she pocketed anything, it was her first-ever attempt at shoplifting and that she acted on a whim or felt a momentary need to rebel. It would really be a shame if her actions were the result of her complicated relationship with her father, or she needs professional help.

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    Sometimes, kids just do stupid things, (none / 0) (#1)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 07:09:23 AM EST
    and the fact that she's 20 and at Harvard and the daughter of high-profile parents doesn't change that she's still a kid.

    And it's probably not the only stupid thing she's done, even if it's the first time she got caught.  Most kids who get caught get the message and it never happens again - has it happened before, and this is the first time it's hit the media?  Who knows?

    It's hard enough sometimes sorting out our own relationships; trying to figure out the relationships of others via what we read or hear in the media is just entertainment, really.

    But, as long as we're playing this game, here are a few possibilities:

    1.  She's had some recent conflicts with her father, perhaps related to her mother, and did this in hope of being caught and causing him embarrassment (when Rudy's your Dad, I think shoplifting is pretty low on the embarrassment scale, though).

    2.  She's never done it before, but has heard others talk aboutr doing it, and - on a whim - decided to try it for herself.

    3.  She's done it before, she likes the adrenaline rush, but this time, she got caught.

    4.  She has no idea why she did it, just acted on pure impulse.

    Who will get the first interview with her?  Will she have an Oprah moment?

    Inquiring minds...

    Interesting point on asking to not prosecute... (none / 0) (#2)
    by rhbrandon on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 07:19:46 AM EST
    Too many complaining witnesses ultimately try to contact defense counsel asking why the prosecutor won't talk to them about the case when they want to drop it. They have this understandable, but utterly mistaken, notion that just because they called police or filed a complaint that they should be able to turn the thing off.

    The answer: because it's not "their" case anymore; it's the State's. Then they get mad at defense counsel because they can't make the State do something.

    A word to the angry, testy, and easily offended: be very careful what you wish for...

    Under New York Law (none / 0) (#45)
    by fuzzyone on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:16:24 PM EST
    They will at a minimum need to file a criminal complaint and have a supporting affidavit from the store.  If the store does not sign there is no case.  There are very rare cases where they will try to proceed over the objection of the complaining witness (usually domestic violence) but this sure ain't one of them.  I'll be shocked if this does not go away.

    otoh... (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:10:42 PM EST
    the DA's office might try to Lohan her...make one of those phoney "no one is above the law" examples out of the girl.  Unlikely, but wouldn't surpise me.

    Not an open and shut case though...I would think since she never made it out of the store with the goods, she could always claim she was gonna pay for it until her shopping experience was rudely interrupted.


    Yup. Here's my "shoplifting" experience (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:40:56 PM EST
    which supports that. And one of my favorite stories...

    Back in the day, one Friday night, one of my friends was underage to drink in NJ while the rest of us were of age, and there was a good show in a bar that night. Jorma Kaukonen, I think, anyway...

    So someone hatched the bright idea that we should alter his birthdate on his driving license so he would be old enough - the licenses were made of paper back then.

    So a couple of us maroons, before the show, went to a store and got some erasers, pens, scissors and stuff and stood in the checkout line.

    As the wait was loooong, and we had work to do and a show to catch, one of the guys said "Let's just walk out." and he did. Right past the checkout counters and out the front doors. The rest of us kinda milled around, not sure what to do. Then, it wasn't 5 seconds before my buddy was walking right back in with a security guard holding his arm.

    Then security came and got us too, but since we hadn't gone out the doors we had done nothing wrong.

    But here's the best part. We then all left, went to a different store, bought the stuff we needed, and altered his license.

    This all occurred in December and his 18th birthdate was the next month in January, so all we had to do was make him born in December and he could get into the bar.

    So we geniuses altered his birthdate on his license to December. His 01-10-1965 birthday got altered to one month earlier; 12-10-1965.

    Buncha rocket scientists we were. We made him 11 months younger, not 1 month older.

    Needless to say we saw Jorma w/o him that night...


    Boy can I relate (none / 0) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:42:46 PM EST
    oculus is probably going to start laughing too.

    I have this stupid dog thing going on.  My dog killed a cat, on my property only I now know.  I was not sure where it had happened when I was charged with having a vicious dog.  The cat's owner, my neighbor, now wants to drop it because I'm fighting it and this is going to take up a lot of her time. But it isn't hers to drop anymore I guess.  And I guess my attorney is up to his armpits in divorces right now and he needed a continuation too for the day of the hearing.  My neighbor signed an affidavit at his office as well to dismiss too, but the magistate is flaming on fire and does not want to drop this now.

    Unknown to me until recently, my husband hired the biggest dog attorney in this area and it really P.O.ed the magistrate.  I'm told now too that I am about intimidating people :)  I do have the funds to hire the best attorney I can find though and now I'm intimidating people?

    It's fricken hilarious.  And if they decide to try this case my attorney says it will be thrown out when he appeals it up the chain, it is a B.S. case.  But I'm stepping on the local magistrates toes.  The magistrate is totally pi$$ed.  I think I might have a new problem, a magistrate gunning for me.  Not that I'm overly afraid.  I'm just a cog in the system fighting out what is good and bad laws and legislation and legal practices.  Such is life, but I usually like to watch this stuff from the sidelines.  It is a little nerve wracking when it's your name on all the paperwork.


    What's a magistrate? (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:49:09 PM EST
    No chit (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:52:16 PM EST
    Don't ask me, I'm new around here and we don't have em where I come from.  That's why I have a lawyer.  Just my opinion, but Alabama law is a fricken mess.

    The Cat Was Trespassing (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:56:52 PM EST
    And more than likely with intent to murder your dog. Self defense, with a touch of temporary insanity, seems like the best defense to me.

    If you can shoot a person who is trespassing, in self defense, killing a cat should be a piece of cake.


    I'm guessing that is how it will (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    be seen higher up the court chain, but they do have a law about vicious dogs on the books due to some event that took place between the cops and a meth lab and some drug dealers who did sick their pitbulls on the police.  So, there is some law on the local books that says that a dog that kills anything is vicious.  And I guess it doesn't matter where the dog is "vicious" at right now, at least in the eyes of this magistrate.  Cats are free to kill anything they want to though.  There is no law about cats killing the squirrels, or toms killing newborn kittens.

    Geez (none / 0) (#61)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:10:09 PM EST
    So much for equal protection...  Hope it goes to the SC...

    I thought animals had no (none / 0) (#64)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:15:57 PM EST
    rights was the universal law, which many are trying to change?  Hence, the cat had/has no rights.

    If your dog bites a human, your dog has no rights.  This I know first hand ;( - he/she is placed on probation for the rest of its life.


    This is interesting (none / 0) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:23:14 PM EST
    I know little about such legal things.  I have read the particular ordinance about vicious dogs.  And a local police officer explained to me where it came from.  Some of the police officers are totally phobic about big dogs around here too.  It is just my opinion, but this particular magistrate doesn't care about universal law.  This is the county that brought you Herring v. United States.

    The paralegal I talk to mostly about this is from WY.  Her husband is here for flight school.  According to her Alabama has been a freakish awakening of what really constitutes the good ole boy network.  All I can say is I'm glad a few of them are for sale :)


    Universal Law? (none / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:42:01 PM EST
    Well that must have been a figure of speech based on "common sense", but it is a fiction. In Russia, dogs can bite and kill repeatedly and they are never put down, the owner just has to live with a vicious crazy animal.

    I stayed with people in St Petersberg who had an insane rottweiler. It had bitten children and killed many dogs and cats.

    One day it was sniffing frantically at the floorboards and I asked why. My host told me that their dog had killed the downstair neighbors dog and as revenge bought a puppy that would grow into the largest and most vicious dog available in Russia. They were grooming the dog to kill the rottweiler.

    I actually liked the rottie, although I was a bit uncomfortable when it started growling at me when I entered my room, but I sort of understood because it was actually his room and he slept under the bed long before I even dreamed of going to Russia.

    In the three weeks I was there,  feeding him countless crumbs of bread (they lived in poverty) and talking to him in his favorite Russian words which I learned, I managed to pet it about four times for about ten seconds each time. Evidentially it had pain around its ears and couldn't tolerate being touched...

    I am a serious dog lover...  


    I love your story . . . (none / 0) (#77)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 02:03:59 PM EST
    It may well be a figure of speech - but when my old Golden Retreiver is supposed to have bitten someone in the buttocks, who jumped my gate and then ran to the other side of the yard to get over another fence - well, my old dog, suffering with arthritis, went after him as best he could and, consequently, was charged with a bite.  

    I was told he had no rights, even tho it was on my property and the man was transpressing (at best!)  It was in Houston, Texas - where if I had shot the man it would have been okay.  

    Lesson learned - what can I say!


    lol (none / 0) (#81)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 02:18:56 PM EST
    Yeah, after my apt was broken into, I had a visit from a senior citizen (or close) cop to investigate...  I told him that my dog (long gone) just sat and watched (rottie mix), while the burglar took whatever he or she wanted.

    The cop said that I was lucky because if the dog had attacked and harmed the burglar, I would be liable, criminal and civil. The burglar could have sued me.

    Instead he suggested putting STP oil treatment on my window sills, so that when the burglar stepped over the fire escape to the window that did not have a gate, he or she would fall to their death.


    Holy Cr@p (none / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 02:52:46 PM EST
    I don't like to dog any breed of dog either, but Black Russian Terriers are scaring me.  They are fairly new in the U.S., but one of the shows that I was recently involved in had them as a supported entry meant to attract a large number of them.  And it did, but one of them bit a person in the obedience ring out of nowhere.  The dogs were all in a line and ribbons were being handed out.  Another one tried to eat a judge, the judge running away and yelling, "get that dog out of here".

    They are beautiful dogs, no doubt about that.  They are more like ponies sizewise though than dogs :)  I thought the agressiveness was due to the "latest tough dog syndrome".  Whenever we get a new tough dog breed in the U.S. it seems like a bunch of people get involved early on and work really hard to make sure that the dog gets bred for viciousness.  Then later on lovers of the breed will show up and in order to preserve the breed start breeding for other characteristics.  I went to a UKC show that was a supported entry for pitbulls this spring.  There were thirty or forty pitbulls in the building at one time and everyone was on their best behavior.  There were zero incidents.  But at a different show Black Russian Terriers are trying to eat people :)


    Not Sure What Breed (none / 0) (#84)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 03:23:44 PM EST
    But a dog that is a cross between a Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer and Airedale, not to mention the other 14 breeds, designed by the Red Army in the 50's for military purposes, sounds about the mindset of my friends neighbors...

    I was thinking of Anatolian Shepard, but I thing your guess is closer..  


    That's the one...Black Russian Terrier (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 03:47:38 PM EST
    And Yup...they could eat a rottweiler.  And they are huge, their back is as wide as a pony.  I think you could saddle one.

    Anatolian is closely related to the German Shepherd and looks much like one too if you aren't familiar with both breeds.  They are a good dog for K9 work though too.  The military has a few and I've watched them work.  They are pretty amazing but hyper is an understatement.  I think we managed to breed ADD into a dog breed.


    Yes (none / 0) (#91)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 03:57:58 PM EST
    I know an Anatolian Shepherd who is pretty mellow, although I have only seen him on leash...  He loved to play with a friends dog who I was taking care of and training...  an Australian (Blue Merle) Shepherd. The little critter would attack under the legs, as if the Anatolian was a suspension bridge. It was hilarious to watch and they would play for an hour..  I asked my friend if he would let the Anatolian off leash to play and he said that his dog would eat the Aussie...  

    Did not make sense to me, but I was only going on the vibe I got then and there, as I do not have any other experience with Anatolian Shepherds. The two dogs looked like twins, save for the fact that the Aussie was super fluffy and the Anatolian's hair was shaggy..  oh, and the size difference.


    I wish those meth lab folks would (none / 0) (#100)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 12:36:10 PM EST
    use a different breed from pit bulls. I have one, and not only is he sweet, he loves and protects children from other dogs.

    I heard from the person taking care of him that he's missing me a lot, so I guess I will return to the US... Ranger Creed: Don't leave anyone behind. As Saint-Exupery wrote, "you are responsible, forever, for those things you tame."


    certain folks (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 12:53:34 PM EST
    seem to have been intent on doing their damndest to wreck that breed, or at least, it's reputation.

    A friend of mine's brother - a strapping, healthy twenty-something-guy - was killed by one back in the late eighties, and a little boy was killed by his father's pit not far from here last year. I suspect both were the result of the dogs being trained by the usual morons with a gotta-have-a-badass-dog complex.

    On the other hand, another friend has one that's an absolute sweetheart, who not only wouldn't hurt a fly, but would probably try rescue injured ones and nurse them back to health..

    Samoyeds are a breed I've consistently had problems with; they seem to be "one person dogs" in the extreme; high strung, hypervigilant  and big enough to do some damage.


    Yeah (none / 0) (#102)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 01:01:05 PM EST
    Well it is not just bad training that makes the dog a killer, it is lack of consistent good training.

    Pit bulls are bred for high aggression and low fear. The biggest problem with them is that they have very short fuses, and do not show the signs that they are POed because they have very low fear.

    It takes a lot of work to compensate for their natural temperament. But, yes, well trained they are just as sweet and loveable as any dog...


    Actually, Pit Bulls are not (none / 0) (#103)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 01:42:09 PM EST
    naturally aggressive toward humans. They were bred to fight, yes, but were specifically bred not to have aggression towards people. That way handlers could keep them in their homes, etc.

    In the early part of the 20th Century, as a matter of fact, they were called "Nanny Dogs," because they were so gentle with children.

    One of the biggest issues with bullies is socialization. the fighters (I do NOT IN ANY WAY CONDONE DOG FIGHTING) are chained up, with short chains, and usually close enough to another dog that they can get within maybe a foot of each other, but no closer. They growl and snarl and become hyper aggressive.  LAtely, some of the dog fighter breeders kill the non- aggressive ones, because they want fighters only.

    Bullies and bully mixes, in general, like people. Now are there mean pit bulls? yep, like every breed. I've been bitten by chihuahuas and rotties more often than pit bulls ( I spend some of my spare time doing dog rescues, and fostering dogs).

    Heck, I've even been bitten by an English Pointer, one of the lovingest breeds around! It's not a breed issue, sadly, but a training issue.

    Ever seen a pit bull go swimming? They launch themselves in the water with their forlegs and hind legs fully extended, like Superman flying. It always delights me to see it!


    OK (none / 0) (#104)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 04:12:58 PM EST
    ALthough it is silly, imo, to suggest that all dogs are the same, and their training or socialization is the only thing that differentiates them from other dogs.

    Yeah, I know you are not saying this outright, but it is implied in your effort to change the stigma that pit bulls have.

    Bottom line, pit bulls need a lot more to over come their natural aggression than a labrador or or other dog that has been bred for low aggression.

    And that is not to say that when breeders take a low aggression dog and selectively breed for fashionable visual traits, that the dog doesn't wind up having some undesirable behaviors, like aggression.


    Only one of Michael Vick's dogs (none / 0) (#105)
    by Untold Story on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 04:15:28 PM EST
    had to be put down because of aggression.

    Some even went to homes with children.

    Each dog has a different personality sort of based on the breed, but not always.

    Love dogs - they should rule the world!


    A child? (none / 0) (#3)
    by maddog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 07:58:49 AM EST
    She is not a child.  She is 20.  As a society we expect less and less of our children.  Treat her like the adult that she is.  Go back in time 50 years.  Would the adults back then call a 20 year old a child.  What has changed?  

    Nevertheless, she screwed up and should face the consequences.  Anne is rationalizing why she did it.  It doesn't matter why.  Typical babyboomer blather even if Anne isn't a baby boomer.

    How did we get (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 08:58:54 AM EST
    from a 20-year-old to a non-Baby Boomer commenter to bashing Baby Boomers in one comment?  Got some generational issues here, do we?

    Since you don't know Caroline, or (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:50:33 AM EST
    really anything about her, I don't think you have any basis for making assumptions based solely on her age; shoot, I know people two and three times her age whom I would consider to be rooted quite firmly in childhood.  It's not pretty, but we all know people like this, don't we?

    I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't have children, and it's been a while since you were one.  I have daughters, both now in their 20's (27 and almost-24) - so I've not only lived their growing-up, but had to re-visit my own in the process.  Had to try to guide them, knowing the kinds of things I did when I was a kid, knowing what's out there now that a lot of kids are doing a lot younger, knowing that sometimes the only luck a kid has is bad luck.  

    Regardless of what "society" does and does not expect from kids, it was my and my husband's job as parents to set expectations: we raised our kids, not society.  Yes, "society" has an influence - there is significant peer pressure at the parental level, in addition to the pressure at the children's level - but it is up to parents to counter it, to balance it, to help their kids make sense of it, and teach them - by example, if nothing else - how to deal with it with confidence - because they have to go out in the world and make their own way, and that takes skills to do well.  

    I did not rationalize what this young woman did - merely stated that kids do dumb things.  They make bad decisions - we all did, at some point, didn't we?  Some of us were "lucky" and didn't get caught, but we all did stuff.  

    Teaching your kids that actions have consequences is maybe one of the most important things they can learn - especially the part where they don't get to choose what those consequences are - and if Caroline didn't learn that earlier, we can hope she learns it now.  

    I don't know what you have against the baby boomers, but it seems a little out of proportion to the discussion; I never said Caroline should not pay a price for her actions, just that she's young and she did what a lot of young people do: she made a dumb decision.


    Child? (none / 0) (#38)
    by maddog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 11:43:36 AM EST
    Anne - I have three kids and have coached at the  highschool and college level for 20 years.  

    So I am assuming you are a boomer.  Nothing against boomers I just don't like the way many of them raise their kids.  

    Rudy's daughter is an adult who stole from a store.  She should be treated as an adult and what she did should not be rationalized as "kids do dumb things".  


    You're not getting it, maddog. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:04:31 PM EST
    Doing something dumb - no matter how young or old one is - does not equal waving off the consequence; what I said wasn't offered as an excuse, at all, but as a counter to all the musings Jeralyn offered about why Caroline might have shoplifted.  There are always reasons why people do what they do, and one of them is that sometimes people - not just kids - just do dumb things.

    NOWHERE did I suggest that this young woman should not have to face the consequences of what she did, so whether I am or am not a boomer is irrelevant, since I wasn't engaging in the boomer-like behavior you're so fired up about.

    I understand that she is 20, but that's just an age.  It doesn't speak to her level of maturity, what other history of this kind she might have or not have, it doesn't say anything about anything, really; it's just a number.  So far, with this Caroline Giuliani story, you've got a name, an age, a crime - and a whole lot of straw.

    I'm going to be 57 in a couple of weeks.  If that's all you knew about me, you wouldn't know much, other than that I was born in 1953.  Not exactly a lot to build on, is it?  


    I dont quite get the train of thought there (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:18:56 AM EST
    if we are talking about baby boomers, which I am, I would have had my butt kicked around and around the house if I had done that and gotten caught.
    the generation of parents of baby boomers would have been a lot more judgmental than this case seems to suggest.

    I do agree with you that parents now, many of which are boomers, are allowing their children to be younger and younger.  perhaps because if they dont they get older and older.  
    living at home into their 30s for example.  you cant convince me its just the economy.  I am constantly amazed at what is currently considered a childish indiscretion by people in their 20s.


    also (none / 0) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:23:35 AM EST
    I have been noticing a lot of hate for boomers lately.  its interesting.  its like suddenly they realized we were in charge.

    Been noticing a lot of hate... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:33:09 AM EST

    The law is partly to blame... (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:26:57 AM EST
    for the extended childhood phenomenon...in my book if you can't buy a beer, you're a kid.  If you can't rent a car, you're a kid...that stretches childhood to 25.  Crazy, I know.

    A universal age of adulthood might be a good idea...I say 18 is the right number, but then we gotta change/repeal some laws.


    Sociologically speaking, (none / 0) (#17)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:36:06 AM EST
    The US has adopted the notion of 'adultolescence' during the past 10-20 years. This practice includes more than just living at home as a boomerang kid (Returning home after college), but requires, socially if not legally, less attention to adult life and matters by children. It's not universal in the US, by a long shot, but it does exist.  In times past, working families and poorer families might have had unmarried adult children living at home to make the family a stronger economic unit, and this can still be found.

    It's an interesting phenomenon, with pros and cons.

    In sone other cultures, children are expected to live at home until married-- look at males, especially, in Italy, who live with their parents or mother until their 30s.

    But the reduced responsibilities for the adultolescent suggests that folks in the US, on average, might have more adolescent thoughts and behaviors until about 25 years old.

    Not gonna post a whole lecture here, it's more complex than these short paragraphs make it out to be.


    I agree (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:40:19 AM EST
    and I think its bad.  I had to grow up fast.  and I am constantly amazed at how much of an advantage that has given me in the world compared to people my own age who had everything given to them on a silver platter.

    it's actually (none / 0) (#24)
    by CST on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:54:34 AM EST
    becomming a bit of a social problem in Italy where men are just not getting married.  Why would they when mom already takes care of them so well?

    It's strange because in the US I feel like people are given more freedom but less responsibility at the same time.  So depending on how you "use" that freedom, you can either grow up faster or slower.  But at the end of the day, no matter what path you choose, you do know mom and dad will prob be there to save your @ss if $hit hits the fan.

    I agree there are pros and cons, but honestly we won't really know the full extent of those either for some years to come.

    And Howdy - the economy isn't all of it.  But at the same time... people living together makes good, smart, financial sense these days.  For both the kids and mom and dad if done right (I think adult children living at home should absolutely have to chip in financially).  It can keep a house afloat, and keep a roof over all heads.  I have a hard time stigmatizing it right now, because in a lot of cases, it may not be 100% necessary but it is often the smart thing to do for everyone financially - especially if parents ever want to retire.  I don't think most people that age want to live at home.


    Good point... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:59:32 AM EST
    it's usually mom & dad bailing the kids out, but sometimes kids move back home to bail out their parents.

    sure (none / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:00:34 AM EST
    agree with all of that.  but for example.  I work with a building full of twenty somethings and a few thirty somethings.  and they are CHILDREN.  I am amazed almost daily how irresponsible and helpless they are.  from cleaning up their messes in the kitchens to leaving bathrooms in a state that would allow future usage when they leave.

    it makes me mad.  almost daily.  I just want to slap them.  I didnt do that when I was 12.  let alone 25.


    i know who you are talking about (none / 0) (#28)
    by CST on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:05:29 AM EST
    and i will say i think it is found more often in men, in hightech fields, than any other group.  From my personal anecdotal evidence (college).  Something about them is lost in that world and completely unaware of human, social interaction and responsibility.

    Although my mother was just whining about my cousin's girlfriend who was like that too, so it's wider than that.  But I don't think it's as prevalent as you think outside of your particular subset of people.


    oh (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:07:28 AM EST
    I know.  its mostly a male problem.  and it extends to late thirty somethings whos mother took care of them until their wife took over.

    it drives me crazy


    Is this adult-olescence... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:15:07 AM EST
    or just being run of the mill inconsiderate?

    I work with a guy in his late 40's who always leaves a mess in the office kitchen and never makes coffee when he drinks the last cup...he's just an inconsiderate slob, I wouldn't say he never grew up.

    And then there is me...a serious Peter Pan complex yet I handle my business and clean up my messes.


    Peter Pan Syndrome ;) (none / 0) (#31)
    by nycstray on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:17:00 AM EST
    I agree, it is more found in men or boys. (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 11:41:12 AM EST
    However, not solely.

    Back in the day my college frat rented out a room to 4 girls for a summer session.

    When fall came, and they moved out, you cannot imagine the squalor they left behind.

    Not just their own filth, but they also had a dog which not only left behind about a million fleas, but also peed and poo'd on the carpet all summer long and the girls never cleaned any of it up, they just lived and studied and slept among it.

    Truly stunning.


    yes (none / 0) (#40)
    by CST on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 11:56:15 AM EST
    the two messiest people I ever knew where girls.  And similar to your story, messy is not an apt term.  Dirty would be better.  I don't even want to get into it, but I will leave it at - there are worse things than dogs.  But the difference is, they were clear exceptions.  I don't think it was a "societal issue" so much as "personal issues"

    In general, I have found that for a certain subset of men (again - not all, even within the age group), who are in hightech fields, messy and helpless has pretty much become the rule with clean being the exception.  Maybe because they have spent so much time lost in their heads they are not able to function on a human level.  And to an extent I think that doesn't necessarily happen unless the women in their lives are also enablers.  Men in other fields are not nearly as bad I don't think.


    I agree, I've met some of whom you speak. (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:36:44 PM EST
    And they are mostly younger men, techie, avid "Dungeons and Dragons" player types. (That reference probably aged me pretty well.)

    Yeah (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:00:45 PM EST
    my daughter was renting a house with four other girls and every time I went over there I practically had the urge to just pour gasoline on everything and put it to the torch.

    It really got out of hand when all four of them were going through their clothes at the same time to find just the right outfit..Frickin' bacteria housing and concealing clothing haystacks everywhere..

    And forget about it after they had one of their house parties.  


    Man, I hear you!! (none / 0) (#87)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 03:27:40 PM EST

    I second that... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 08:01:46 AM EST
    Hope the monster Rudy helped create doesn't chew the kid up too badly.

    The store trying to unring the alarm when they found out it is the daughter of the former fuhrer is amusing to me...if she only had pulled the diva act I'm sure the store woulda gave her all the free crap she wanted.  Only the broke or unconnected feel the need to shoplift, the rich and connected get gift bags...don't they cover this at Harvard?  

    Come on man (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 08:52:45 AM EST
    I have seen kids raised in dysfunctional homes and families turn out great and turn out bad.

    I have seen kids raised in "perfect" homes and families turn out great and turn out bad.

    She's an adult. She knew better.

    Leave Daddy out of it.


    But Rudy... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:15:54 AM EST
    helped mold the NYC criminal justice system of today, cold and unforgiving as it is.  He is relevant to any discussion involving crime and punishment in NYC.

    Lucky for the young lady, Rudy kept different rules for different fools in full effect...equality under the law isn't his bag...crony authoritarianism is.  


    the crux of the problem: (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:24:45 AM EST
    because her last name is Giuliani, the store doesn't want to prosecute. Had her last name been Diaz, Smith, Freeman, Wong, or any other last name associated with a non 'elite' family, what would the store do?

    I've never liked the idea that 'justice' means 'just us.'

    I've been in too many places where the mayor's kids get rides home when they are driving drunk, or shoplift, or vandalize something, but the poor kids get rides to juvie or jail.


    It's a problem as old as time... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:31:53 AM EST
    To be honest, if I had clout I'd pull strings for my friends and family too...it's just human nature, but that don't make it right.

    Maybe we should have our systems treat everybody like the mayor's kid...it's probably the only way equality under the law can become a reality, finally.


    ok (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:33:03 AM EST
    full disclosure time.
    when I was about the same age.  I got busted for shoplifting.  my family never found out because I was in the merchant marines at the time and to my surprise they had an active and activist attitude about bailing members out of jail.
    I tried to steal a leather jacket.  it was worth about 300.00 bucks.  I dont know what she stole but I bet it was not more expensive than that.

    I was not punished.  and I was less than nobody.  it turns out that it is SOP for a first offender to be let off with a warning.  I had to show up in court but it was for about 10 minutes where the judge shook his finger at me and I was on my way.


    You're... (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:35:14 AM EST
    part of the pre police state generation...breaks are harder to come by these days.

    actually (none / 0) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:38:26 AM EST
    I bet the same thing would  happen now.  I doubt the laws have changed much in that particular area.

    they dont swat first offenders usually.  unless its drugs.


    agree (none / 0) (#21)
    by CST on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:46:13 AM EST
    I have known people to be caught for shoplifting (me at like 12 - for something really cheap and stupid I don't even remember now) but others as well at older ages and nothing ever happens.  Maybe they call your parents.  They didn't call mine.

    I will say, I'd done it before, but after getting caught I didn't do it again.  Even though they didn't punish me to teach me a lesson.  It's embarrassing, you learn that lesson either way.


    absolutely (none / 0) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:51:00 AM EST
    I never felt the need to see the inside of a jail again.

    I don't think so man... (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:54:57 AM EST
    you lift a 300 dolla coat today, unless the store clerk takes pity on you, you're getting some probation at the least.

    I just caught a special on the boob-tube about shaming punishments...they had kids wearing "I'm a thief" placards walking the street for a week for stealing a $50 video game, having been given the option of shaming or a little jail time.


    I had a choice of going in the Army (none / 0) (#20)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:41:43 AM EST
    or going to trial for some teenaged rowdiness... I chose the Army, and charges were dropped. It was a different time, with different enforcement. I think there's more 'zero tolerance' today, and also more social branding-- somebody shoplifts once, s/he's a THIEF, a CONVICT.

    Maybe  I should adopt kdogs attitude-- if you can beat the system, or your dad, mom, friend, whomever can, use it. This isn't the same system I grew up in. Seems as though the options, such as the choice I was given, have disappeared.


    You can thank "zero tolerance" (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:38:03 AM EST
    The suspect is "not subject to the (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:18:54 AM EST
    jurisdiction" of NYC.  

    other than all that.. (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 11:36:18 AM EST
    all this has nothing to do with Daddy, so leave him out of it.

    Attacking the kid because of the parent? (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:36:55 AM EST
    Come on. We're better than that.

    Besides, Rudy has been gone for what... 9 years?

    This is the same as using Palin's kids to attack Palin... Clinton's brother to attack Clinton.. Billy Carter to attack Jimmy... etc., etc.


    Where did I attack the kid? (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 10:50:11 AM EST
    Reread my original comment pal...I attacked Rudy and what he done to my city...in case I wasn't clear, "Rudy's Monster" is NYC style criminal justice.

    The point is you have attached the child to (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:35:46 PM EST
    Rudy. That's using the child to attack Rudy.

    And I don't think you meant to, but that's the result.


    If she wasn't the child (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:41:59 PM EST
    of Rudy, this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.

    It's a left-leaning site and many here aren't thrilled with your grandstanding weasel of a client, no matter how long he's been out of office. Find some way to deal with it.


    Everybody who gets the chains... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:58:04 PM EST
    in NYC is attached to Rudy...now until we get a mayor interested in undoing the damage done.

    So True (none / 0) (#60)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:07:42 PM EST
    And you have to forgive ppj, whenever he hears the name Giuliani, he has a nostalgic endorphin seizure, and his brain function gets limited....  IOW Giuliani is like crack for him.

    Clearly your comment had only to do with the irony that G's daughter would fall victim to G's quality of life insanity...

    Nothing to do with what ppj is accusing you of.


    Thanks Squeak... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:15:36 PM EST
    the old man did make me double check my comment.  I'm on the poor girl's side...having an old man like that has gotta f*ck you up in the head.

    Pre-Guliani I could definitely see this having been handled without the chains and a mini-perp walk outta the store.


    Yeah (none / 0) (#66)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:25:06 PM EST
    Me too.... Clearly she has managed to transcend the horror of GUWG (growing up with Giuliani) and make a great life for herself. Of course, part of that included ditching the old man...

    Can't wait to see the Fox-spin... (none / 0) (#67)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:33:06 PM EST
    on this later...something like how her support of Obama turned her from all american girl apple of the former fuhrer's eye to a life of crime in support of the Weather Underground...should be a unintentional high comedy.

    lol (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:47:15 PM EST
    That is a good one....  

    but the psycho G pulls the wingnut strings, and he said that this  was a private family matter so his minions will surely STFU...

    But I am sure that in private, that is what they are saying..

    Of course the irony is that if she blew away an abortion doc, burned a few crosses, and spit at the dfh, she would be a hero among that crowd...


    Silly me... (none / 0) (#78)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 02:05:23 PM EST
    you're right...they're great american hero has spoken...about a "respect for privacy" no less, something he never seemed concerned with as mayor.

    either that or they'll (none / 0) (#75)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:59:21 PM EST
    play the "liberal set up" (to make Rudy look bad) angle, the way they tried to do - for five minutes, just long enough to plant a seed of doubt - with Larry Craig and Tom Foley.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:06:05 PM EST
    Attacking the kid because of the parent?
    Come on. We're better than that.

    Well mr. double standard, shift the goalposts.....  that is what the 14th amendment is about.

    Not to mention your position on the children of the Russian spies.


    The 14th amendment worked. (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:33:22 PM EST
    It's task is now complete.

    It should be deleted.


    and we shouldn't talk about (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:37:28 PM EST
    Rudy, or Sarah..There's a war on after all.

    You shouldn't "should" all over us so much.


    Task? (none / 0) (#56)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:53:21 PM EST
    COnstitutional amendments are not tasks. And you are punishing the children for the deeds of the parents. Double standard galore.

    Just as you were adamant on punishing the russian spy children for the deeds of the parents.

    Hypocrite,  IOKIYAR....


    Today the world knows (none / 0) (#5)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 08:32:49 AM EST
    Caroline Giuliani, a promising actor, perhaps!

    This publicity as a career move is brilliant!  Hollywood will love her!  

    She wouldn't have $100 for make-up - hard to believe with her father worth over $50M - but possible when one thinks about Giuliani.

    Yes, Rudy Giuliani seems creepy - superficial with such a sleek, practiced smile, my opinion only.  What kind of a dad could he have possibly been many years ago when he was supposed to be a practicing father?

    Aloha Untold Story (none / 0) (#96)
    by AlohaMade on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 08:37:03 PM EST
    How are you, sorry haven't been around, just going through a lot of medical stuff! Hope all is well with you, I have missed reading your posts!

    Missed reading your posts (none / 0) (#99)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 09:02:52 PM EST
    Hope you are feeling well now and have gotten the help you needed.

    Stay happy!


    Clearly Caroline did a bad thing, (none / 0) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 11:46:16 AM EST
    and you would hope this would teach her a lesson. What a maroon.

    But enough about an ex-politician's daughter, why has there been no TL "Crime in the News" post about Maxine Waters?

    Well (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:10:23 PM EST
    I wouldn't be surprised if she did it to work out a character study for her current play, Fat Men Wear Skirts, or future plans for developing a character.

    Thank you - (none / 0) (#48)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:36:37 PM EST
    Now aren't more people interested (or, even know about) Fat Men Wear Skirts and Caroline's directing abilities!  

    Wow - guessing some of its material could be based on her own old man.  Afterall, he left her for a mistress when she was somewhere between three and four.  His actions could have provided fuel for the burning.

    Go, Caroline - you are earning your place in the sun!  Good publicity just doesn't make headlines, but, as you well know, bad publicity certainly does.


    Didn't Giuliani wear women's (none / 0) (#86)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 03:25:15 PM EST
    clothes for a tv show - or something???

    She might be knowingly touching a sore spot on Mr. G!  He doesn't want publicity for her sake -- since when has he started thinking about his family?  Or her?  Never - not a moment in time.

    The more I hear about this 'Fat Men Wear Skirts', the more I understand his not wanting any publicity!

    Intentional on her part or not, imo, it is still brilliant!


    Oh you mean (none / 0) (#97)
    by AlohaMade on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 08:40:14 PM EST
    She was pulling a Winona Ryder! lol ; )

    Sorry meant for Squeeky (none / 0) (#98)
    by AlohaMade on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 08:42:06 PM EST
    I think it's a kid thing (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 12:49:50 PM EST
    My daughter's makeup caboodle is brimming with eye colors and Sephora is the place where they all want their makeup from.  Brilliant colors...very pricey...and you can't have too many, it is almost a contest to see who can have the most.

    I guess (none / 0) (#68)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:36:36 PM EST
    This is as good a place as any to interject some thoughts on a subject that is metastasizing right before our eyes and that should be included in the discussion  we're having here. That subject is, of course, the mind-destroying addiction Americans, mostly younger, have with all the new technologies.

    Since it's a subject I'm quite interested in, the reading I'm doing confirms my anecdotal research  that Face book, texting, Tweeting, Smart phones, and all the rest are quite literally, addictions. They are, in fact, defined as addictions by mental health experts in this field.

    In laymen's terms we are creating and raising multi-tasking "zombies." The professionals emphasize that the term "addiction" is appropriate as their studies show that many (most?) of these "victims" are simply incapable of controlling, and denying, these desires.

    The head of one of these studies stated that at this critical time, as emerging countries are leaping forward in education and innovation, America is heading in exactly the wrong direction. His quote, "We are raising a generation of Stupid young adults."

    Real life example:......A 20 something girl was involved in a car accident that left her young body battered, bloody, and broken, but alive. She was the driver of the car, and while text messaging, drifted into the oncoming traffic and smashed head-on into a truck. Her passenger, another 20 something girl was killed instantly. Neither of the girls were wearing seatbelts.

    During her recovery and rehabilitation she was asked to speak to other young folks about her experience in the hope of deterring  them from replicating  her horrible incident.

    (Now here's why there's no hope for us and our future.) In relaying her story to her audience she said she hoped that by hearing what awful things can happen by texting while driving she no longer drives and texts at the same time ...................

    She proudly told them that she now only texts while stopped at a red light, and when the light turns green she puts the phone down on the seat between her legs!!!!!

    (Lest you think I made this up, I'll look for the story and report back with a link)

    are addicted to posting on TL.

    Hopelessly addicted... (none / 0) (#74)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:57:37 PM EST
    a fiend!

    Jeralyn's my pusherman. (none / 0) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 02:03:10 PM EST
    She's got the good stuff...:) (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 02:12:37 PM EST
    I don't know.... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 01:57:02 PM EST
    before addiction to gizmos were the end of the world, it was addiction to video games, before that addiction to dope, before that the devil's music called rock-n-roll, before that "x", before that "y"...it's always something making the next generation a bunch of maroons compared to the generation of which you are a member...which of course was/is the greatest sharpest smartest generation ever:)

    That being said, I tend to agree that these gizmos all the youngins are using at an alarming rate will have many negatives to go with the positives...and there is no turning back the clock.  I just know how much more serious it is than the littany of things blamed for destroying the youth through history...and we're still here reproducing.


    How about the 'roaring twenties' (none / 0) (#80)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 02:17:29 PM EST
    when America was supposed to be totally lost in its barbaric behavior, music, sins of the flesh, etc.

    But America lived to save the world from another's domination a couple of time - raising, one might think, from its own ashes of evil!

    There are so many positives for today's youth - everything is at their fingertips, rather than sitting in a dusty old library, trying to get comfortable in a hard straight-back chair.

    I wonder who and what live on the earths they found in the Milky Way - will some generation soon be able to connect with them?


    The 1920's... (none / 0) (#82)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 02:32:44 PM EST
    of course, how could I omit the 20's...a reactionary authoritarian's wet dream era...we're still suffering from the reaction to all the fun the kids had back then:)

    You're hearing it (none / 0) (#85)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 03:24:44 PM EST
    kdog. (but there's not enough of you)

    This is serious business

    And responding to it with tired old clichés as so many are doing does a great disservice to the most precious commodity we could possibly have, our children, and their children.

    "Every generation says it," is the kind of mindless non-answer that Fox and all the MSM use in their lazy attempt to appear "fair & balanced,"........"and here for the other side of the story....." Of course we know Global Warming is a hoax.

    We're talking addiction as in helpless, and hopeless conditions where brain cells are actually destroyed, I.Q's deteriorate, and other clinical damage occurring. Liking the Everly Brothers a lot,  and uncontrollable need to talk on a cell phone while driving isn't analogous.

    I don't think responding to medical and psychological experts in a manner like the Right Wingers respond to Global warming is a very smart thing to do.

    Going from single cartridge muskets  to 6-shot repeaters was a big leap, going from six-shot repeaters to thermo-nuclear hydrogen bombs should make you sit up and take notice.


    Don't mean to belittle... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 03:49:01 PM EST
    your concerns Shooter, but even if our kids are hopeless technology addicts and we're doing them serious long-term harm by not taking the iphones away (I'm undecided)...well, I don't see that there is much we can do about it now except keep close eye on the kids you love and try to raise 'em right and teach them moderation of all things.  

    I mean we're kinda stuck seeing this experiment called the industrial revolution to it's eventual inevitable end...ya know what I mean?  There is no "off switch" to technology, all you can do is limit your usage and exposure.  


    Yeah, but at the end of the day (none / 0) (#92)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 04:10:23 PM EST
    technology can only be a good as how bright the person is using it!

    Yeah, didn't mean to imply (none / 0) (#93)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 04:16:51 PM EST
    I had any answers, just pointing out we've got a real problem on our handa. And this problem, the dumbing down of of tomorrow's "leaders" is real, and exactly what we don't need.



    Impossible (none / 0) (#94)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 04:20:39 PM EST
    Human intelligence cannot be dumbed down by technology..

    We are incredibly adaptable species.

    Your concern sounds like generation gap talk to me.


    You have got to admit (none / 0) (#95)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 04:39:22 PM EST
    that Obama of his generation is certainly more than a step up from his predecessor, Bush, as well as Gore (imo), representing that generation!

    This should give hope that, perhaps, some of America is being educated.  Agree, completely, most children in our schools are not even being taught proper English.  

    (Know I make many mistakes.  I try each day to do better with tenses, etc.  In America it is the only language being taught, so it should be excellent, I would think.)


    this is a story? (none / 0) (#88)
    by diogenes on Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 03:29:28 PM EST
    Would this be displayed on this blog if this were the daughter of a prominent Democrat of the liberal persuasion and the store talked about not pressing charges on discovering who the prominent parent was?