Saturday Morning Open Thread

It's "Restoring Honor" Day. Bob Herbert:

America is better than Glenn Beck. For all of his celebrity, Mr. Beck is an ignorant, divisive, pathetic figure. On the anniversary of the great 1963 March on Washington he will stand in the shadows of giants Abraham Lincoln and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Who do you think is more representative of this nation?

This is an Open Thread.

< Friday Night Open Thread: A Numbers Game | Paris Hilton Arrest: Hold Off on the Jail Predictions >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    Random thoughts... (5.00 / 8) (#7)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:47:38 AM EST
    Glenn Beck is entitled to say whatever he likes and to do so in whatever venue will have him, but doing so with the backdrop of the Lincoln Memorial in the company of others of his ilk will not legitimize his message or elevate his motives.

    And I really hope most people will not force their ears to hear it or their minds to spend one second even considering it.

    I have to say that the whole thing rather annoys me; I always liked the fact that MLK, Jr. gave that speech on my birthday - it's silly, I know, but good things of historical significance that happened on one's birthday are just cool.  Guess I will take the position that Beck's little patriot party has absolutely no historical significance whatsoever, Fox News' and the Tea Party's attempts to make it so notwithstanding.

    It is a gorgeous day here, just 50 miles from DC - hope everyone else is having such beautiful weather and has a great Saturday enjoying it!

    Happy birthday, Anne! (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by vml68 on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:53:56 AM EST
    Happy Birthday (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 10:15:12 AM EST
    ...the backdrop of the Lincoln Memorial in the company of others of his ilk will not legitimize his message or elevate his motives.

    And relying on the quotes of others.

    Mr. Beck is an ignorant, divisive, pathetic figure.

    Happy B'day Anne (5.00 / 6) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 10:38:43 AM EST
    What a lucky day to be born on!

    Happy Bday Anne (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:41:14 AM EST
    Have a great day.  I have a dog busy day, not much time to have my honor restored :)

    Happy Birthday, Anne. (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by caseyOR on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:07:27 PM EST
    Hope you have a wonderful day.

    Happy birthday, Anne! (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:01:02 PM EST
    Many happy returns!

    Thanks to everybody for the (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:27:52 PM EST
    birthday wishes!

    Looking forward to a nice family dinner, spending time with the people who mean the most to me.

    Perfect weather for grilling, the corn and tomatoes and summer veggies are at their peak - doesn't get much better than that!

    State Fair started yesterday, so we'll be making a few visits, as we always do.  Apparently, it is now possible to batter and deep-fry just about anything (Oreos, candy bars, dill pickles, "buckeyes,"), but don't think I will be going for the deep-fried Pop Tarts.  My favorite things are the animals and the 4-H exhibits, the barrel-racing, bull-riding, heavy-weight horse-pulling, and this year - jousting - which is MD's official state sport.  Plus horse racing, in case we feel lucky.

    Ten best days of summer!


    Let me know if your fair offers (none / 0) (#70)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:59:42 PM EST
    deep-fried butter and/or chocolate-covered bacon.  Ours did. But I resisted.

    What? (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:04:14 PM EST
    I am personally opposed to my tax (none / 0) (#87)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:39:35 PM EST
    dollar subsidizing health care for people who eat this crap.

    How About Genetic Testing (none / 0) (#100)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:12:19 PM EST
    And euthanasia for those who are genetically inclined to have expensive health problems, and cannot afford an organic vegan diet?

    Happy Birthday Anne! (none / 0) (#148)
    by Amiss on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 04:11:20 AM EST
    As far as Fair Food I saw them deep frying beer at the Texas State Fair and you must be 21 to order it.

    Happy Birthday Anne! (5.00 / 4) (#117)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 05:20:15 PM EST
    Hope Beck is just a tiny footnote on the history of Aug 28.

    Forecast high tomorrow (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:05:14 PM EST
    for this area is 80-82 degrees... usually at this time of year the low is close to 78. Unusual. I might have to wear socks and a sweater tomorrow! I'm usually able to go sockless until some time in January, unless there's a formal event. For us down here, 82 is kind of chilly, after high 90s and triple digits. but in the spring we're extatic for it.

    "Holdout" Juror Describes Ordeal (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:30:09 PM EST
    Battling stomach pains and fatigue, JoAnn Chiakulas would take the train into the city each morning knowing that her resolve was disappointing some people and infuriating others.

    But the 67-year-old grandmother said she also knew that as a juror in Rod Blagojevich's corruption trial, she had a responsibility to follow her conscience and the law. She said she did not believe he or his brother committed a crime with their actions to fill Barack Obama's Senate seat, so she would not find them guilty despite what other jurors, prosecutors and, perhaps, the general public wanted.

    Interesting read....  JoAnn Chiakulas is a brave woman, imo.

    Lincoln Memorial... (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by desertswine on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:04:50 PM EST
    Marian Anderson.

    The hateful Glenn Beck does a diservice to us all. He reminds me of nothing so much as a cockroach. You can step on him, but the slime is still there.

    LAT says there was a pre-rally (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:28:02 PM EST
    at Constitution Hall.  As you know, the DAR would not permit Marian Anderson to perform at Constitution Hall.

    LAT on Beck's event at Lincoln (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:31:35 PM EST
    Memorial:  LAT

    This is my favorite paragraph:

    Becky Benson, 56, traveled from Orlando, Fla., because, she said, "we believe in Jesus Christ and he is our savior." Jesus, she said, would not have agreed with what she called the redistribution of wealth in the form of the economic stimulus package, bank bailouts and welfare. "You cannot sit and expect someone to hand out to you," she said. "You don't spend your way out of debt." [Italics added.]

    Is that in the bible? (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by caseyOR on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:05:59 PM EST
    Granted, my Catholic school education did not spend a whole lot of time on the Old Testament ( we were more of a New Testament people), and my adult switch to buddhism involves absolutely no reading of either part of the bible, but is this issue of "bailouts" covered anywhere in the bible?

    Did Paul write to the Corinthians at some point to chastise them for  a massive transfer of taxpayer dollars to miscreants in the financial markets of the time? Does a closer reading of Daniel reveal that the lion's den was in reality a failing mule cart manufacturing company that was rescued from liquidation by an infusion of taxpayer money? Were the many exhortations of Jesus about the worth of the least among us and the meek inheriting the earth really an ancient turn of phrase meaning "let them sink or swim" or maybe a "up by their bootstraps" reference?

    Yes, their are gaps in my education, but how did I miss this?


    Must Be New Testament (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:09:44 PM EST
    Because in the old Testament god gave handouts. Manna from heaven...  also god made wine turn to water....  

    But then again, didn't Jesus heal the sick for free? Sounds like free health care to me. F'ing socialist hiding behind god..


    Or water into wine (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:28:45 PM EST
    ... whatever.

    And it was Jesus at a wedding, (none / 0) (#83)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:34:17 PM EST
    after his Mom nagged him.  New Testament.

    Matt. 25:41-46 (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by mogal on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:13:14 PM EST

    41Then he will say to those at his left hand, `You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

    42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

    43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
    44Then they also will answer, `Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?'
    45Then he will answer them, `Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


    Loaves and fishes in the new testament (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:21:40 PM EST
    Don't recall Jesus charging for them. IIRC they were just handed to the people there.

    Most apropos: Jesus in the temple (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:37:02 PM EST
    overturning the tables of the money changers.

    Breaking for lunch and LMAO (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:18:22 PM EST
    Jesus would not have borrowed from Peter to pay Paul.

    Jesus also believed in derivatives, and I know this because his disciples tell me that with the blessing of his father, Jesus fed a riot of 5,000 on five loaves and two fishes.  And after everyone ate they gathered up twelve baskets of "fragments".

    I'm fairly certain that Jesus and his best friends in the whole world were bald-faced liars :)


    Give unto Caesar that which is (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:35:22 PM EST
    Caesar.  Not very Tea Partyish.

    I'm sorry, I try to be understanding (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 05:22:53 PM EST
    But making the leap from Jesus to Glenn Beck requires mental gymnastics I just can't execute. Insane.

    I wish Herbert would not elevate Beck (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by masslib on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:50:35 PM EST
    by comparing him toe MLK.  There is no comparison.  Beck doesn't deserve the attention.

    I think that was Herbert's point (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:59:52 PM EST
    Personally, I think it was well worth  making.

    BTD, I really liked what you had to say (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by masslib on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:29:43 PM EST
    the other day about progressives focusing on progressive candidates in the upcoming election and not simply spreading their time and money around to all Democrats.  That it was important that progressives not be the big losers in the next election cycle.  Hope you will touch on that some more.

    Anyone have a transcript of Beck's speech? (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by abdiel on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:24:33 PM EST
    It would be nice to know what he actually said before judging it and him, right?

    Right (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:04:55 PM EST
    Let's not be too harsh with him..

    Glenn may have completely turned over a new leaf between the time of today's rally and the time a couple of days ago when he was still an unctuous, sanctimonious, race-baiting demagogue.


    thats crazy talk (1.00 / 1) (#129)
    by efm on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 08:09:42 PM EST
    Apparently (none / 0) (#132)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 08:49:03 PM EST
    Actually knowing a little something about Beck is not required for idiots to come to this thread and defend.

    Don't bring the stupid to mine.


    His point (none / 0) (#134)
    by efm on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:05:42 PM EST
    is that everyone is saying how racist and hatefull this speach is and no one actually watched it.  Every time I looked at the time posted for a comment it was well before the rally was over. If you don't like Beck, which I take as a given for most people here, thats fine.  But why is it so crazy to wait and decide on context of this speech until it has actually happened.

    No (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:11:28 PM EST
    not at all.

    The point, that almost everyone has been reiterating ad nauseam, primarily concerned how vile, manipulative and yes, race-baiting, Beck has been up until today.

    I don't know how you could have missed that.


    Nobody has said (none / 0) (#140)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:52:50 PM EST
    how racist and hateful this speech is, likely because none of us watched it.

    Please read more carefully.


    Does Glenn Beck not have as (none / 0) (#1)
    by Slado on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:20:28 AM EST
    much right to rally at the Lincoln Memorial as Muslims have to build a mosque near ground zero.

    Where did all the tolerance go?

    I mean Glenn Beck is a crazy conservative.  Not a racist.  He isn't rallying as some sort of counter point to the original rally held 40 years ago.

    This is a stupid controversy whose only intent is to get so called liberals and progressives in a froth.

    Don't take the bait.

    Glenn Beck plays a racist on TV (5.00 / 10) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:28:57 AM EST
    And racists have the right to have rallies, just like Nazis have the right to March in Skokie in front of a Jewish temple.

    But both acts are offensive.

    And I have a right to say so.


    I think Slado has a point. (none / 0) (#6)
    by vml68 on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:47:16 AM EST
    All this offense and outrage is only giving Beck more publicity. He needs to be ignored like he is a nobody.

    Lets just pretend he's nobody (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:59:39 AM EST
    and also pretend that there isn't a very well funded, orchestrated and choreographed, reactionary hard-Right movement in this country..

    Then we can pretend we won and that an emphasis on reason, common decency and justice finally carried the day in this country.  


    I did not say he was a nobody... (none / 0) (#45)
    by vml68 on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:20:52 PM EST
    I said he needs to be treated like a nobody. The less attention/visibility/free publicity he gets from all the media, the better. Hopefully, it will lead to fewer people paying attention to him.

    Then we can pretend we won

    I thought you did!

    and that an emphasis on reason, common decency and justice finally carried the day in this country.

    IMHO, this still holds true more often than not.
    Or are you agreeing with Beck that America needs it's "honor restored"?

    After two terms (2.00 / 1) (#52)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:58:29 PM EST
    of Bush, I'd say America needs it's collective brains restored -- and a spiritual enema..

    Then we can get back to raillng full-time at that beast who rolled his eyes at Hillary.


    Aha! I see where I went wrong... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by vml68 on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:15:31 PM EST
    silly me thought the thread was about Beck and his ridiculous "honor restoring" but we are actually talking about Hillary!
    I guess I should brush up on my reading comprehension/mind reading skills... :-)

    Wow ... some people can make ... (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 08:48:34 PM EST
    ... any topic about her, and make it look easy.

    Call it a "gift".


    I wouldn't say it was (none / 0) (#137)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:33:11 PM EST
    about her, though, now that you mention it, I'd  venture to guess that two-thirds of the current regulars here wouldn't be here if it weren't for her and that appalling, unforgivable ordeal she had to endure in '08.

    Precisely my point (none / 0) (#138)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:46:25 PM EST
    It wasn't about her, yet your thoughts still go there.

    BTW - I've seen many of your "guesses".  Applying made-up numbers to them doesn't make them any more believable.


    Oh geez I'm going to regret this.... (none / 0) (#141)
    by ZtoA on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:36:05 PM EST
    Hillary did go thru an ordeal (like EVERY pol does but her's included sexism as Obama's included racism). That said, many people who are interested in blogs, are interested because of her. Kerry hardly counts. She, like Obama, is a compelling figure.

    Nevertheless, it is time to let Hillary go- as far as current or near term politics goes. Two years ago is a lifetime past. Our current political environment is truly strange. Everyone seems to be jumping to the right so as to be as "real" and conservative as possible.

    We have an unsavory group of mythological figures leading right now. Maybe it is deserved. In a sense the media is reflecting more of the collective unconscious than the collective consciousness or conscience right now so we get these odd figures like Beck and Palin. To a lesser degree I'd add in many of the dems too. And Obama too probably. We should all be Shakespeare or Sophocles because these times reflect more deeply on human nature than we wish them to.


    He's on the front page (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:32:19 PM EST
    of my local paper this morning. Do you think the people promoting his career are going to stop doing it, if we on the Left side of the aisle just ignore him and Rush and Roger Ailes and the Koch brothers etc etc?

    Well said, BT (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:06:36 PM EST
    I'll take the bait. No. Entirely different (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:23:07 PM EST
    rights are involved.  (Referring to: "Does Glenn Beck not have as much right to rally at the Lincoln Memorial as Muslims have to build a mosque near ground zero.")  Answer:  That depends on whether you can weigh or equate different rights with one another.  The right of the Sufis (who are Muslims, but not of the sort that most Americans associate with that term) to construct their community center (NOT A MOSQUE!!!! [sorry, BTD]) several blocks away from "Ground Zero," is a private property right; they own the building and lot.  So right-wingers would presumably be supporting them avidly in the exercise of this right.  (Their relevant First Amendment right is only the right not to be discriminated against on the ground of religion by city zoning authorities, and I don't believe any such problem in fact exists in that situation.  They also have a federal statutory right under RLUIPA, but that's getting a little far afield.) Beck's "right" to hold a highly-publicized self-promotion event in that location at this time depends on the extent to which similar events are allowed there by the National Park Service -- it's a rather technical issue under the First Amendment's "limited public forum" doctrine.  Advocates of a broader application of that doctrine tend to be left-leaning civil libertarians.  The Sufis' property right is rather clear.  Beck's limited First Amendment right to a rally permit for the use of public property which is primarily designed as a memorial and place for reflection on Lincoln's legacy (but is also often an allowed venue for rallies and demonstrations) is not necessarily as clear-cut.  Is that what you wanted to know, Slado, when you asked whether one has "as much" right as the other?

    The project will include a mosque (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:59:25 PM EST
    according to a definition I linked to recently.  Minaret and/or dome not requirements.  Prayer space.

    "A Definition"? (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:16:36 PM EST
    Splitting hairs? not sure why, though.

    The term Mosque in its colloquial sense means a rather grand palatial Islamic house of worship. If you asked a reasonable person to describe or draw a picture of a mosque, it would not look anything like a community center with a prayer room.

    Google images of Mosques, look nothing like google images of Community Centers.

    Why you trying to force a technicality is beyond me...

    Here is a picture of a NYC Mosque.

    While the media widely described the center as a mosque, and the protests were against the mosque, the Initiative's official blog portrayed it as a community center with prayer space, making comparisons to the YMCA or Jewish Community Center.[92] The Initiative said that some services planned for the Cordoba House, such as the restaurant and performance center, disqualify it from being a mosque.[93] Daisy Khan, Imam Rauf's wife and partner, in August 2010 also said:

    We insist on calling it a prayer space and not a mosque, because you can use a prayer space for activities apart from prayer. You can't stop anyone who is a Muslim despite his religious ideology from entering the mosque and staying there. With a prayer space, we can control who gets to use it.



    A Burlington Coat Factory (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:28:52 PM EST
    is, however, regardless of what you call it, a monument to the "hallowed ground" traditions of sweat shop labor, the minimum wage worker  and the 400% mark up.

    Here's the link: (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:39:22 PM EST


    Who are we to argue?


    Argue? (none / 0) (#56)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:08:47 PM EST
    The question Peter was responding to was this:

    Does Glenn Beck not have as much right to rally at the Lincoln Memorial as Muslims have to build a mosque near ground zero.

    The 92st Y has prayer services.

    A synagogue (from Greek: συναγωγή, transliterated synagogē, "assembly"; בית כנסת beyt knesset, "house of assembly"; שול or בית תפילה beyt t'fila, "house of prayer", shul; אסנוגה, esnoga קהל kal) is a Jewish house of prayer. (it might also be of interest that the word when broken down could mean, "learning together" (syn - gr. together and aghoghei gr. learning or training)

    Synagogue is commonly spoken of as a "shul" by Orthodox Jews, "synagogue" by Conservative, and "Temple" by Reform. "Synagogue" is a good all-around word to cover the preceding three possibilities.[1]

    Synagogues usually have a large hall for prayer (the main sanctuary), smaller rooms for study and sometimes a social hall and offices. Some have a separate room for Torah study, called the beth midrash--בית מדרש ("House of Study").

    As far as I know, no one ever uttered that the 92nd street Y was a synagogue, although technically it is.

    Wonder why?


    Let's check out "Judaism.com." (none / 0) (#68)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:57:51 PM EST
    Yeah, Go For It (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:59:34 PM EST
    It is the one stop shopping site for all that is Jewish.

    Weren't they originally called the... (none / 0) (#78)
    by EL seattle on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:14:19 PM EST
    ... 92nd Street Young Men's and Young Women's Hebrew Association?  

    (And I guess they still are - see the copyright note at the bottom of the 92st Y page.)


    I think you missed the fact I only (none / 0) (#81)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:27:38 PM EST
    sommented on a discrete portion of Peter G's comment.

    This is interesting:  91y.org   Rosh Hashana services at the Y are sold out.

    Did discover, much to my delight, Leon Fleisher and Laredo/Robinson/Kalichstein Trio will be performing at the Y when I am in town in Dec.  


    It is a mosque (none / 0) (#127)
    by efm on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 07:51:10 PM EST
    and a community center.  It says so on their own website.  I don't get why people have a problem with others calling it a mosque when they themselves say mosque on their website.

    From Cordoba House Site (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:59:56 PM EST
    Frequent Q & A:

    Why are you building "a mosque near Ground zero?"

    Strictly speaking, it will not be a "mosque," although it would have a prayer space on one of its 15 floors. At the beginning, no one considered the fact that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf Abdul Rauf's current mosque is 12 blocks from the Ground Zero site, while the Park51 Community Center location is only 2 and one-half blocks away.  We never discussed wanting to be close to Ground Zero; our goal was to find a good real estate opportunity for a community center.  51 Park seemed to fit the bill.

    Also of note:

    While a mosque will be located in the planned final structure of Park51, it will be a distinct non-profit. Neither Park51 nor the mosque, which hasn't been named yet, will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity or rhetoric.  The final size and location of the mosque have yet to be determined, but it will only represent a small portion of the final structure.

    Clearly the project is a Muslim Community Center much like the 92nd street Y.   The Right Wing has framed the project by el-Gaman and Imam Rauf as building a Mosque at Ground Zero in order to flame islamophobia and slander Muslims. The overt message by the right is that Muslims equal Terrorists and they are flipping the bird to all Americans by building a Mosque on "hallowed ground".


    Out of curiosity, do you know when... (none / 0) (#44)
    by EL seattle on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:19:56 PM EST
    ...they announced the Sufi connection to this project?  Up until a short time ago, developer Sharif el-Gamal was being really vague about all this.  Which probably didn't help them sway New Yorkers with natural suspicions towards property developers.

    For instance, the interview last month with Beliefnet was very interesting, but he seemed to be kinda evasive about things like transparency and organizational structure, and there was no mention of any Sufi  backers.  In fact, he said that "We have not yet launched our fundraising campaign."

    (btw, In that interview, Sharif el-Gamal also said that there would be a mosque as a part of the larger community center.  Although he didn't say so, Park51 is probably also a floor wax and a dessert topping.)


    They All Look Alike (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:33:17 PM EST
    In July 2009, the real estate company and developer Soho Properties, led by Sharif El-Gamal, purchased the building,[10][11] initially planning to build a condominium complex at the site. In partnership with Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf's Cordoba Initiative, the owners instead decided to pursue the idea of an Islamic community center to be headed by Rauf.[12]

    Plans to build Cordoba House were noted in December 2009,[13] at a location that was already in use for Muslim worship....

    For several months after its purchase, since September 2009, the building was used as a makeshift Muslim prayer space for up to 450 Muslims, with services led by Rauf.


    Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (Arabic: فيصل عبد الرؤوف‎, born in 1948, in Kuwait) is an Arab-American Sufi[1] imam, author, and activist whose stated goal is to improve relations between the Muslim world and the West.



    Rauf is Sufi. He's the developer. (none / 0) (#59)
    by EL seattle on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:18:27 PM EST
    But does that mean that this is can be described as a "Sufi Community Center"?

    I don't think that Rauf is ponying up the money for everything, so unless all of the funds come from Sufi sources as well (which would be fine, and that's what I was asking about), or it's not going to be open to other folks except sufis (which I don't think they've ever intended), I think that the phrase "Islamic community center" is probablty a more accurate description of this project than "Sufi community center".


    Seems to me the point is (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:07:15 PM EST
    that Sufis, at least the ones I know in Philadelphia, are politically, philosophically and theologically about as much like the traditional Sunnis and Shi'ites that most Americans associate with the term "Muslim" these days, as Philadelphia Quakers are with Southern Baptists.  While I'm sure that Imam Rauf would welcome anyone at his services, including (perhaps especially) Wahabbis, Salafists and other Islamic religious conservatives, I doubt they would be any more likely to attend, or comfortable if they did, than a traditional Roman Catholic at a Metropolitan Community Church service, even though they are all self-described "Christians," or Lubavitchers would be at my local reform Jewish Temple.

    Not Sure Why You Are Confused (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:39:23 PM EST
    There is plenty of information around about the Cordoba Initiative, The Cordoba House, Park51, and the plans for housing a prayer facility for Muslims.

    The greater project will be a Community center, open to all..

    Because Imam Rauf is a Sufi, it is certain that his religious beliefs will flavor the center he is building. Calling it a Sufi center, would be descriptive in a way, although Imam Rauf would not want to limit his project in this way because his project is also about interfaith dialogue.

    He watched his father, an Egyptian Muslim scholar, pioneer interfaith dialogue in 1960s New York; led a mystical Sufi mosque in Lower Manhattan; and, after the Sept. 11 attacks, became a spokesman for the notion that being American and Muslim is no contradiction -- and that a truly American brand of Islam could modernize and moderate the faith worldwide.

    He is a famous Sufi. So, most who would want to be associated with him from a religious standpoint would be open to the Sufi way of doing things. Just as in all religions there are interdenominational conflicts. I am sure that some Muslims would not recognize Imam Rauf as speaking for them.

    This project would had gone unnoticed as just another religious project in NYC. The right wing decided that it would be a great way for them to stir up hate, by fearmongering  right before the November elections.

    It is a BS issue concocted by the right. Has nothing to do with Imam Rauf, downtown NYC or ground zero.


    I'll take my cues from a relative of King (none / 0) (#2)
    by Slado on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:22:56 AM EST
    Uncle Martin's legacy is big enough to go around,"

    Alveda King wrote in an op-ed for the Christian Science Monitor.


    That's freaking stupid (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:27:36 AM EST
    Alveda King is a RW bigoted (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:48:06 AM EST
    nut who once held office as a Dem but then took a sharp turn to the right, and who now thinks her uncle MLK was a Republican.  

    What a sellout idiot.

    But I guess most extended families have at least one whackjob extremist.  And I suppose she'll serve as a handy tool for the white racists running this show today.  


    Forgot something? (1.00 / 2) (#11)
    by prittfumes on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:58:56 AM EST
    Alveda wouldn't also be a racist, would she?

    of course not (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 10:49:07 AM EST
    racism doesn't exist anymore to any degree in any population in this country. conservatives are so right when they point out how the only sh*t that smells is from the left.  

    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 10:51:58 AM EST
    Racism is alive and well. White people are constantly suffering racist attacks, just for being white...

    It is all the rage.


    c'mon squeak (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:40:22 PM EST
    you had to read enough of my comments to know i my tongue was in my cheek so hard it popped right through. ;-)

    I think squeak got it (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:48:43 PM EST
    and was just upping the snark another notch..

    Yes, But (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:52:54 PM EST
    oculus snark meter still not working so good....  needs a tune up or something, imo...

    "Buses Leave Rochester for Beck Rally" (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:09:24 PM EST
    The headline of today's paper of record here in Rochester..

    Sure, just ignore Beck and people will stop paying attention..

    And don't talk about or say mean things about Sarah, or people will get mad and vote for her..

    The above recommended approach for dealing with the well-organized hard-Right didn't work in neutralizing Jerry Falwell and The Moral Majority in 1980, I don't know why people think it will today..


    You are correct. I read you comment (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:31:46 PM EST
    too quickly.

    I strongly suspect Dadler's comment (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:04:50 PM EST
    was snark.

    lol (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:11:22 PM EST
    Well your snark meter is not 100% dependable, evidentially.... lol

    Well, maybe Glenn is (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:03:07 AM EST
    trying to be fair and balanced.  Alveda is antigay and, there he is in counterpoint--after all, he says he is in support of gay marriage.  And, if he has changed his mind or does not want to play that role today, Ken Mehlman may be found at the foot of Daniel Chester French's masterpiece.  Now, who will be the fair and balanced counterpoint to Sarah Palin?  I vote for this week's Levi.  Also, there are to be "mystery guests",  perhaps Dr. Laura.  All made for Cable, of course.  

    I agree that it's (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:31:39 AM EST
    big enough to go around, but some skulls and hearts it would need a diamond drill to penetrate..

    Or I suppose the Right will be holding an upcoming Poor People's March soon -- to pick up the narrative exactly where King left off?

    (New title: "The Demanding Government Hand-outs People's March", with featured speakers Glenn and Sarah and featuring Michael Steele singing and dancing songs from the antebellum period)  


    And she also wrote (none / 0) (#66)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:53:47 PM EST
    in the same piece that Beck's rally is "not a political event."  Does that cue make sense to you, too?  

    Do you think that her Uncle Martin would see the rally as not political but -- what?  Just a great big social gathering on a nice day and a nice place, both of which happen to have had significance in his history, and ours?


    Makes sense to invite Sarah Palin (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:56:54 PM EST
    to speak at a non-political rally.  

    Paris Hilton arrested on cocaine charge (none / 0) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:25:16 AM EST
    LAS VEGAS (AP) -- Police arrested Paris Hilton on cocaine possession charges late Friday night after stopping the car she was in on a Las Vegas street, authorities said. link

    Alleged reason for stopping the car "officers detected what they suspected to be marijuana smoke wafting from it.

    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 10:50:18 AM EST
    Wonder if the boyfriend will take the fall. Last time at the World Cup Paris was released with the authorities issuing an apology for wrongful arrest.

    Hilton tweeted:

    "Everything is fine guys. I had nothing to do with it," Hilton tweeted afterward.

    Read more:

    Her friend took the rap and was fined.


    They smelled weed from a passing car? (none / 0) (#156)
    by weltec2 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 04:21:49 PM EST
    Sooo, they were looking for weed in her purse and they found coke? Very confusing.

    Does Jonathan Alter always weave (none / 0) (#9)
    by BTAL on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:50:27 AM EST
    these elaborate tales?  

    `The Illustrated Man'

    Awkward. (none / 0) (#15)
    by EL seattle on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 10:42:17 AM EST
    Ray Bradbury's 90th birthday is in the news and all that, but I thought that Alter's column really seemed to stretch and creak in its effort to shoehorn the "Illustrated Man" metaphor into the piece.  

    I know progressives are (none / 0) (#12)
    by kenosharick on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 10:12:00 AM EST
    dispirited as this election appropaches (and with good reason). Might events such as beck's jingoistic tea party rally help motivate the Left?

    Let's see (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:01:54 AM EST
    Beck takes his show on the road and once again proves he is a despicable human being. Old news in a different venue.

    Nope, doesn't do much to motivate me.


    There is a lot of hate out there (none / 0) (#19)
    by Saul on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 10:56:19 AM EST
    Beck called Obama a racist on Fox TV.  You can Google the clip.  

    IMO Beck is like a guy trying to round up a posse before knowing who is guilty to string the person up.  

    He is an instigator.  He claims he is having this rally to "claim civil rights back"  claim it back  from whom the blacks that got their rights after so many years of apartheid and abuse hear in the U.S.  

    He preaches that building mosque 3 blocks from ground zero is a very bad idea and insensitive to the families of the fallen.  
    Well having a rally on the Lincoln memorial and standing two tiers down from where MLK stood on this sacred anniversary of where MLK talked on August 28 is also a bad idea and very insensitive and disrespectfully to all blacks and the MLK legacy.

    Just because MLK's niece is going to be there is all the rationalization they need.  I doubt if the black community is favor of MLK niece being there.  I doubt if she really knows what Beck is all about.  I would like to see what the news will say about her after this rally is over and later she might state that she regretted doing this.

    She is not, um, very sharp (none / 0) (#27)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:03:24 PM EST
    Saw the niece on teevee, and I doubt if she knows what much of anything, beyond Beck, is about.  Clueless about the right-wing agenda, you called it.

    Not Very Sharp (1.00 / 3) (#41)
    by prittfumes on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:07:32 PM EST
    What specifically led you to conclude that she is "not, um, very sharp"? I assume you did not administer an IQ test on the spot.

    IYO, is she "sharper" or less "sharp" than Sherrod?


    I really don't need you in my threads (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:34:36 PM EST
    I would prefer you stay out of them.

    Veiled accusations of racism are not something I like.

    Why don't you take this act somewhere else?


    What I wrote was not meant (none / 0) (#114)
    by prittfumes on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:59:11 PM EST
    to be veiled racism. However, I can see how you could have interpreted it as such.

    "Allegedly" (none / 0) (#58)
    by NYShooter on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:17:44 PM EST
    not sharp.

    There, all fixed.


    Well, let's see. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:43:27 PM EST
    I watched and listened to the interview, to the questions that were addressed to her and to her answers.  Based upon my decades of life on this planet and my own knowledge base, I concluded that she was not wise to the ways of the right wing, for starters.  As far as I know, there is not a test to be administered for that -- but gosh, if you have one, do link to it.

    Now, about your comparative essay question:

    I also watched and listened to several interviews with Sherrod, questions that were addressed to her and to her answers.  I also looked up and read more about her and her connections to the movement -- and I hope that you have done so, as they are fascinating and revealed to me, at least, how much more we are learning and still need to learn about the breadth of the movement as well as its depth in town after town. . . .  And I say that also based upon my decades of life on this planet and having lived through, participated in, and read a lot about the movement -- including about women in the movement, a long-neglected but rich ground for new research.  Have you read, for example, This Little Light of Mine?

    Oh, and yes, I think Sherrod is a lot sharper.

    So, your turn:  What apparently has led you to conclude that Ms. King is a whip?  Do you have her IQ test score?  Ditto re Sherrod.  Shoot.


    Thank you so much, CC, for (none / 0) (#113)
    by prittfumes on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:56:02 PM EST
    your explanation. I asked for your reasoning and you were kind enough to enlighten me re same. In hindsight (20/20 of course), the snarky IQ stuff would have been better left off. I don't blame you a bit for getting a little bit animated. Sorry for that.

    I see we enjoy some of the same reading materials.

    That said, during the decades I have been around, I have dealt with people of exceptional intelligence who were inarticulate. Personally, I absolutely refuse to judge the intelligence of  people I have never met, just because they happen to be inarticulate or not good at "thinking on their feet".

    I asked a question. You answered it. Thank you for that. Also, let me hasten to add: just because I have a particular point of view, I do not. and would never, question your right to hold and practice a different view.


    Still remains to be (none / 0) (#139)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:50:41 PM EST
    explained why your choice of comparison was Shirley Sherrod.

    Awright, gyrfalcon, you caught me. (none / 0) (#143)
    by prittfumes on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 01:27:20 AM EST
    And I thought I had gotten away with it!

    Since you asked, here goes:

    As an African American, a child of the segregated South, I believe I recognize "racism" when I see it. I do not agree that much of what is currently being called racism is indeed racism.  But I digress. Never did it occur to me that comparing these two ladies might be seen as "racist".

    The reason for the comparison was Shirley Sherrod's elevation to sainthood by the left, especially the left blogosphere.  On CNN, she  pontificated (among other things) that Andrew Breitbart [wants to] "take us back to the days of slavery".  During that entire interview, she did not come across as someone who had "moved on".

    Conversely, the left attacks Dr. Alveda King because she is appearing at one event organized by a widely despised (and admired) teevee personality. I have seen Ms. King on teevee numerous times and she always comes across as a woman with strongly held beliefs, with which anyone in this great country of ours is free to disagree. Nevertheless,strong disagreement does not justify referring to Ms. King in terms such as "bigoted idiot".  

    Seems hypocritical to me.


    Not "hypocritical" at all (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 08:15:32 AM EST
    Sherrod and King are two different people, who have made entirely differing statements.  No one elevated Shirley Sherrod to "sainthood" - they defended her after she was unfairly attacked by someone twisting her comments into the exact opposite of their original meeting.  As far as Ms. King being a bigot, I believe that refers to her anti-gay advocacy, including her statement that "God hates homosexuality".  If it walks like Rev. Phelps and talks like Rev. Phelps ...

    As far as her being an "idiot", that's a matter of personal opinion, as is the conclusion that she is "uhhm, not very sharp".  She may have an IQ of 60 or 160, but she apparently is fairly inarticulate.  You may (or may not) judge the intelligence of people you have never met based on their inarticulateness ... other do it all the time.  Personal choice, but I don't see how meeting them in person should make a difference.


    Bigotry (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by daring grace on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 08:20:22 AM EST
    The "idiot" part of the comment is a subjective read, to be sure.

    But her entry in wikipedia quotes her as saying "God hates homosexuality." and she's campaigned against civil rights issues involving gay people. That makes her a bigot to me.


    Nobody used that term (none / 0) (#144)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 01:40:20 AM EST
    that I can see here except for you.

    So whom are you quoting?


    Wasn't talking about what you said, CC. (none / 0) (#146)
    by prittfumes on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 02:03:45 AM EST
    The exact quotes should be "bigoted nut" and "sellout idiot". (See Comment #8)

    OK, that's a fair explanation (none / 0) (#151)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 09:10:22 AM EST
    and I accept it.  But you surely understand my caution, since it's a well-worn path for right-wing white people to compare and contrast totally unrelated black people.

    And I actually agree with you that the term "racist" is thrown around far too freely and nobody has ever spent much time exploring what racism actually consists of and whether there are degrees of it or not.  For instance, is someone who eagerly exploits racism, or let's say racial resentment, for political advantage but who is not personally particularly racially prejudiced a racist or not?  I'm thinking Andrew Breitbart here, obviously, for one, plus a whole lotta folks making the decisions over at Fox News.

    And what do we say of George W. Bush, who eagerly and actively exploited homophobia to his political advantage without, apparently, being a homophobe himself?


    Who's a racist? (none / 0) (#153)
    by NYShooter on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 02:09:36 PM EST
    Interesting question. Growing up in a country whose history is drenched in racism, and achieving it's position as an economic powerhouse due to racism, I think almost all of us are infected with this disease. Much as growing up in a Christian, Jewish, Moslem household pretty much ensures one is embedded with those philosophies, so it is with racism.

    Believing something intellectually is one thing, feeling it emotionally, quite another.

    As my kids were growing up, when they developed different quirks, habits, involuntary "twitches" like cracking knuckles, etc. I told them that to get rid of them they would have to consciously address them over and over again until the involuntary motions became involuntary......in the other direction.

    So it is with racism; we're "born" with it and have to attack it consciously, affirmatively, and repetitively.........until it becomes ingrained and part of our DNA.

    As a point of reference, even on the most liberal blogs I would state, without too much fear of contradiction, that 95% of the participants marry within their ethnic status.

    There's no easy way out; just gotta keep on trucking along, until one day................


    Racism or? (none / 0) (#155)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 09:21:23 PM EST
    I don't agree that racism per se is part of our DNA.  Fear of "the other" is certainly instinctive, and if that's how you define racism, then you're right.  But racism by my definition is learned.  Just as you can to a large extent unlearn fear of what's different, you can learn to equate difference with inferiority, which would be closer to my definition of racism.

    As the song goes, you've got to be carefully taught.


    Sigh. You use the term "inarticulate" (none / 0) (#154)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 06:14:19 PM EST
    not me.  (A term that resonates, of course, owing to use of "articulate" about Obama by -- was it Biden?  Interesting.  Is he racist, too?  How interesting that must make their meetings now.)

    When I say "not sharp," I mean not wise.  She does not appear to be wise to the ways that she is being used by the right wing.  And I think that is very sad for her and must also be so for her family.

    Do you really think that she is not being used, for her name and family connections, by Beck, et al.?  I happen to know several very conservative AAs.  Some are quite homophobic, hold other views similar to hers, yet were not invited to speak at Beck's rally, to go on teevee to promote the rally, etc.  Why not them, and why her?  Hmmmm.


    He has the right to do it (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:50:36 AM EST
    But he does not have the content of character to do it in the court of ethics.  Oh well, I'll bet this day and that location isn't available on the permit calendar any time in the near future and hopefully that isn't due to Beck but due to Civil Rights orgs.  I watched a bit this morning about it, the speakers and what they are giving speeches about have stuck to being apolitical.

    I was not surprised to discover that those attending are largely tea partiers.  From attending past rallies I would say that after the heat of the day hits, and many of the baggers have traveled across the country to attend and they are not being given any red meat, they will begin to get grumpy around early afternoon.

    The Sharpton group will be marching from their rally site to the site of the planned MLK memorial, and when they do they will brush up against the fringe of the Beck event.  That IMO is going to be the moment of tension.

    The Beck attendees actually had to be told to not bring their signs and not bring their guns.

    What's really disheartening (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by NYShooter on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:10:32 PM EST
     Is watching something that is so obviously, on it's face, a ruse, and then seeing how many, utterly naive, people buy into the nonsense.

    I feel a sense of sorrow, or pity, for many of the so-called "tea party" members. Sure, some are racists, bigots, or otherwise anti-social dregs on our society. But many (most?) are just simple, undereducated, under informed, frustrated victims of our system. They are sucked in by the Becks and Palins just because those charlatans speak clearly, passionately, and on the surface anyway, don't talk down to them.

    Calling them all sorts of pejorative names may make us feel superior, but it really is so very counter-productive. It doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility for Liberals to reach out to them in a manner that both empathizes and educates. We should make every effort, irrespective of labels or affiliations, to convey a sense of comradery,  that "we're all in the same boat." But, above all, to understand that respect is the magic wand that can break down almost any barrier.

    Hey, what's to lose? the way we're going about it now isn't working so hot, is it?


    agree (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by The Addams Family on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 08:22:54 PM EST
    the answer to Thomas Frank's snotty question (What's the Matter with Kansas?) is that "Kansans" let their illiberal cultural views override their economic interests because neither Republicans nor Democrats are speaking to their economic interests -  but at least Republicans don't tell the "Kansans" they are stupid

    Some might say the same about certain (none / 0) (#89)
    by BTAL on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:50:27 PM EST
    campaign events in 2008.  Just change the name and some adjectives.

    It was said though (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:54:37 PM EST
    Puzzling comment. (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:00:41 PM EST
    Obama and Brandenburg Gate (none / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:02:24 PM EST
    Today is the second anniversary of (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:09:12 PM EST
    Obama's nomination.

    Guns. Hadn't thought of that. This (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:16:17 PM EST
    could have a very bad outcome.

    Jess Norman. Just heard a recording (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:26:24 PM EST
    of her singing an aria from Wagner's "The Flying Dutchmen."  Announcer sd. she has a new CD out.  Googled her.  New album is "Soul."  She is 65 yrs. old.  Says it takes lots of concentration to nail the high notes now.  NPR

    Segue:  Jesse Norman.  Also found out there is a Tory rep. of Hereford who calls himself a "Compassionate Concervative."  He wrote a book entitled "Compassionate Economics."

    105 mph heater... (none / 0) (#55)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:05:40 PM EST
     Cincinnati Reds prospect Aroldis Chapman clocked at 105 mph Friday night.

    His slider is 'only' 90-91 mph.

    And yes, the Reds will bring him up for the pennant race. This one I gotta see...

    Hope he doesn't need Tommy John (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:28:41 PM EST
    surgery before the post-season ends.

    I hope not, either. (none / 0) (#65)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:43:57 PM EST
    Still hoping for a padres-braves NLCS. But a 105 mph fastball? with any sort of movement, this guy could be... heck, I can't even think of a comparison except Nolan Ryan or Bob Feller. Maybe Smokey Joe Woods? Dizzy Dean? Satchel Paige? This is some incredible heat. Potential to be the most intimidating pitcher ever.

    Major league batters (none / 0) (#147)
    by NYShooter on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 02:55:14 AM EST
    aren't afraid of fastballs;
    The faster a fastball gets in to the batter the faster it goes out into the centerfield bleachers, unless.........the ball "moves."

    A 100+ mph Heater, without "action" can still be a potent weapon if its used in combination with other off-speed pitches, keeping a batter off-stride.

    But hitting a fastball, with "snap," ala Ron Guidry in the 70's, is the single most difficult feat in all of sports. And you don't have to take my word for it; you know who made that statement? None other than Ted Williams (who knew a thing or two about hitting)

    p.s. Re: Ron Guidry. Guidry, if you recall, weighed in at less than 160 lbs, soaking wet. But when he was on that streak, "in the groove," batters said the ball "snapped" and rose 2-3 inches just before reaching the box.........simply unhittable.
    Unfortunately, the damage done to the wrist, elbow, and shoulder in achieving that "snap" guarantees the pitcher's career will be short lived.
    I'm sure there were others, but the two pitchers I remember who perfected that "snap" were Goose Gossage (but only in short relief) and my favorite, Steve Carlton.

    Thanks for the heads up re: Chapman, I'll keep an eye on him.


    MLK wouldn't last two minutes (none / 0) (#77)
    by observed on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:12:24 PM EST
    in today's media cycle. Also, IMO, MLK is a perfect exemplar for the notion that one's private sexual affairs have NOTHING to do with   one's ability to contribute to public life. If a man uses prostitutes or cheats on his wife ,it is NEVER the general public's business, per se.  

    I don't believe that for a minute (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:40:45 PM EST
    He faced down things far more dangerous than a news cycle.  Don't think for a minute that someone of King's intent, strengths, caliber, and intelligence wouldn't have completely made the news cycle his b*tch :)  Anyone in this age with such intelligence and intent, with such a voice, would promptly be "offered a job" or several jobs.

    I agree, MT. He and others (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:07:54 PM EST
    in the movement were quite adroit in managing the media then (and, of course, there always has been a news cycle, since the invention of newspapers).

    Even before King's involvement in the Montgomery bus strike, for example, there is the marvelous story of the Women's Council of that city and the work of JoAnne Robinson in organizing overnight to react to the arrest -- long planned -- of the NAACP's and Women's Council's Rosa Parks.  Robinson and her students had to print up flyers on a mimeo machine and distribute them by hand, but they did fine.  And the Southern leaders to come long had been trained in the movement, including by the great Ella Parks who had led and won the campaign to desegregate the New York City public schools.

    And, of course, MLK Jr. was raised in the stories of the grandfather for whom he was named, who led and won the campaign to desegregate public transportation in Atlanta when that meant  trolleys, not buses.  And all cases used media well -- even if nothing but the black press, if the white media would not run their stories.

    History did not -- and does not -- just "happen."


    So good to have the input (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:11:17 PM EST
    of the history experts.

    CC, my knuckles are probably going to regret (none / 0) (#104)
    by BTAL on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:22:34 PM EST
    this, but which grandfather are you referring to - regarding being named for?

    It peaked my interest which prompted a quick search.

    Is this accurate or am I missing something?

    Ancestry of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


    Ah (none / 0) (#109)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:44:01 PM EST
    correct; sorry -- I admit to recalling the confusing names in the family incorrectly, not having looked up the sources again here.  It is confusing because MLK's name was changed, and I keep forgetting that.  (He was christened Michael.)

    The story of his maternal grandfather is really something, though, -- a turn-of-the-century minister who built up the major black church in Atlanta and worked with W.E.B. DuBois and others, even before they founded the NAACP.  The focus on the later era of the movement in the '60s is sad, in a way, as it does not teach the lesson that nothing comes out of nowhere -- that all of the civil rights movements (women, ethnic groups, etc.) built upon generations of victories, setbacks, lessons learned, etc., before them.  


    No problem. Yes, the earlier and deeper (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by BTAL on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:52:38 PM EST
    foundational stones laid are overlooked, in many parts of history, unfortunately.

    Here's another Mark Twain bio factoid: (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:49:47 PM EST
    his father-in-law, Jervis Langdon, was instrumental in helping Frederick Douglass:  Ron Powers "Mark Twain"

    And here's another: (none / 0) (#128)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 08:09:18 PM EST
    Burlington Hawkeye review of Mark Twain lecture

    This is my home town.  Fascinating.


    Sex hobbled Clintons second term (none / 0) (#116)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 05:16:24 PM EST
    and he had the power of the presidency to portect him. (note- it wasn't sex but the reaction of nut who were looking for an excuse just as they would have been with King)

    So you are willing to guesstimate (none / 0) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 05:34:06 PM EST
    that MLK was cut from the exact cloth that Clinton was? Because Clinton had warning to get a grip on his own self....and he failed.  But he had warning.  Truth though is that MLK came from a different time in many respects, and before women had found themselves.  And I'm not knocking my own sex because we had our reasons, but it is hard to be sexually enriched with someone who can barely accept the act itself as something other than a horrible burden to be endured.

    And you know what those Rethuglicans and Christians and Andrew Sullivan says about girls that grow beyond that...we are whores of the first order.  I have always adored being first though.


    Really? Where do you (none / 0) (#123)
    by observed on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 06:16:35 PM EST
    see people of intelligence and principle with his influence today?

    Wiki says Beck admitted he got high (none / 0) (#95)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:07:24 PM EST
    for 15 yrs. before he started AA.  MJ and alcohol.  Any comments?

    Holy addicts (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:25:02 PM EST
    He goes to regular AA meetins?  Not being mean spirited at all here either though some will surely think I am.

    He has got to be a dry drunk, the most dangerous and manipulative of drunks.  My dad with his head injury and little medical info and few knowledgeable healthcare professionals self medicated mucho with alcohol.  I was on the Al Franken dependent side of that reality for at least 20 years.  Have never seen an active member of AA so unevolved emotionally, so manipulative, and intent on damaging others and in denial if attending regular meetings.  One thing I did learn from AA and drunks though is that many many drunks are off the charts intelligent and as manipulative as David Coppperfield :)  And without regular meetings that connects the addict solidly with their own humanity, it is easy for the alcoholics to exploit basic human weaknesses and empathy to the point that they can be considered sociopaths.

    And now I've said too much


    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:31:27 PM EST
    I think that he is just a clever businessman who was inspired by tele-evangelists. He did the math: lots of viewers, preaching fear, end of the world stuff, and the $$$$ comes pouring in.

    Oh, and like many preachers, entertainers, and politicians, he is probably a sociopath as well...



    Have you ever listened to Glenn Beck? (none / 0) (#108)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:39:40 PM EST
    I haven't.

    I Heard A Bit (none / 0) (#112)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:55:27 PM EST
    Saw a bit of him on a youtube link, or something...  and have read some transcripts of his racist drivel, revolting.

    He makes money selling sh*t to his millions of viewers. $32Mil last year, mostly books, newsletter and speeches, only $mil from Faux. But Faux is his vehicle for generating cash.


    For that reason I'm sorry to say (none / 0) (#121)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 05:32:26 PM EST
    that though MLK represents the best in America, Beck might be more representative of America today.

    small doses (none / 0) (#157)
    by weltec2 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 04:34:47 PM EST
    I have listened to him in small doses, but I can't listen for too long. I take medication for high blood pressure, but his program still pushes it toward dangerous levels.

    I suspect he is still using something chemical (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 05:30:24 PM EST
    Possibly some apparently very ineffective anti-psychotic drugs

    That might raise his street cred here (none / 0) (#99)
    by BTAL on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:11:29 PM EST

    That's what I was thinking. What's a guy (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:13:26 PM EST
    got to do to get some respect?

    Belly chuckle post of the day - winner! (none / 0) (#103)
    by BTAL on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:18:53 PM EST
    The only thing that would (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 07:14:21 PM EST
    raise his street cred with me would be if a road grader ran him over.

    Its almost sad (none / 0) (#115)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 05:14:13 PM EST
    That "I have a dream" is such an incredible speech-- if it weren't maybe people like Beck would have been forced to confront the true character of King's movement. I mean I'm sorry but Beck actually told listeners to "leave churches that call for 'social justice'" which quite frankly is what MLK stood for and it disgusts me to the core to hear a race-baiting, fear-mongering scumbag say that he's picking up the torch of arguably the greatest American of the 20th century (FDR I would put over him with caveats about civil liberties).

    So he expanded on his (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 05:28:06 PM EST
    Social justice = socialism theory? Hos is that not political?

    Never mind, i already spent more mental energy than it deserves just asking the question.


    It is my understanding Mormonism (none / 0) (#124)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 06:38:09 PM EST
    is, to a certain extent, involved in social justice.  Certainly to its own.  Lots of volunteerism and helping others.  Just not all others, or even most others.

    Really? Hmmm... (none / 0) (#142)
    by masslib on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 12:48:16 AM EST
    I lived with my cousin and her immense Mormon tribe one summer.  Social justice wasn't my take away.

    Beck 'n Mormons 'n Social Justice (none / 0) (#145)
    by EL seattle on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 01:49:49 AM EST
    According to the NYT, back in March: LINK

    I guess if you're a loose cannon, you don't really care if you paint yourself into a corner.


    Thanks. Very interesting. (none / 0) (#152)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 12:46:07 PM EST
    yes incredibly sad (none / 0) (#126)
    by ZtoA on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 07:38:11 PM EST
    I've been putting some effort into ignoring Beck and Palin, but NPR covered a bit before I walked out of the room in a disturbed mumble. An attendee was asked why she was there and she said "because I love my country... and the lord".

    Oy, I'm DOG TIRED :) (none / 0) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:18:10 PM EST
    Usually a good thing unless you've been chasing a dog who slipped the leash and on the run for miles :)  That was not my fate today, and one of my best friends won big.  As Martha would say, it's a good thing.

    At the homestead, my laptop and my spouse's laptop are very different creatures but they can use the same power cord.  My husband just asked me if I'm done with the power.  Hmmmmmm..........I dunno, maybe I need it for a little while longer.