Joran Van der Sloot: More Conflicting Reports

Update 6/7/10, 10:30 pm: Peru news reports say Joran has confessed, details here.


I'm still following the confusing reports from Peru on Joran Van der Sloot. My Spanish is getting better by the day because the Google and other online translators are pretty awful, and I've found that by reading the Spanish, I get a more accurate sense, even accounting for the words I don't know. Also, their pronouns are often wrong and in the wrong place making it hard to figure out who they are talking about. It's clearer to me reading the Spanish.

That said, while I can understand most of the written Spanish, I'm not able to translate it into English, so especially when pressed for time (like now) I may move to summaries, with links to the Spanish. From what I gather today: [More..]

La Repbulica (Google Translation here): The police now think robbery was the motive, they are checking her bank accounts for transfers (although other articles speculate it was her refusal to do a transfer that caused her murder.)

They are in possession of and checking both their cell phones as to numbers called to and from the phones. They may take Joran back to the hotel to retrace his steps and they continue to interview the hotel employees. It's also reported Stephany's wallet and credit cards were found with her body. (If her credit cards were there, doesn't that refute a robbery motive?) There are still conflicting reports on whether her jewelry was found, if she wore any.

Reports remain confusing as to poker player Elton Garcia. I'd say his story doesn't add up but there are so many inconsistencies, it may just be his statements are being incorrectly reported. E.g., if they weren't friends, why did they make plans 3 days in advance to meet at a certain restaurant for dinner? Why was he so concerned about Joran not showing that he feared he and Stephany had been kidnapped, and why was he so worried he asked the casino manager to call the hotel or check the casino videos? If he was staying at the same hotel as Joran, why didn't he ask himself? And how did he already know Stephany was missing?

Another curios note: Joran's number was stored in his phone. (One report says he told police he did that unintentionally when he received a call from Joran, who got his number from another poker player.)

Reports vary about the last night. Some have Elton, Joran and Stephany playing poker together at an open table from 3:20 am, when she arrived at the casino alone, until 5:00 a.m. when Joran and Stephanie left together, with Stephanie driving them to the hotel -- to those saying Elton just saw Stephany and Joran playing at an open table.

As mentioned, it's been reported by multiple publications Elton was staying at the same hotel as Joran. His story makes more sense if he wasn't staying at the same hotel. Maybe those reports are wrong. And if not, what time did he get back to the hotel that morning?

Some reports have Elton saying he played poker with Stephany four times in May. Some say he played with Stephany and Joran. Other reports have him saying he never met Joran, just knew him by sight. (But they were meeting for dinner?)

He refused to tell police Stephany had won $5,000. the night she disappeared, only that she had won $2,000. from him earlier in the month.

It sounds to me like Stephany knew both Elton and Joran and they had played together before and played together that night. But again, it's hard to tell from the conflicting reports.

The bigger question, given the speculation of robbery as a motive, is did Joran lose, and ask Stephany to drive him back to his hotel so he could get her the money? Or Did Stephany lose and Joran asked her to make a bank transfer to pay him, using a computer back at his room? And doesn't the casino have videotapes of all the tables? Wouldn't the tapes show who won and who lost?

Back to news: the ex-Director of NPI (which seems to be the equivalent of our Bureau of Prisons) says Joran will not be going to Miguel Castro Castro prison (as the Peruvian press reported yesterday.) (Google translation here.)He says Miguel Castro Castro is not secure enough to protect him. He believes Joran is likely to go to another maximum security prison in Piedras Gordas.

If Joran does go to Miguel Castro Castro, I hope he doesn't try to escape. There are a lot of land mines around the prison, courtesy of the old Peruvian government. Last month, the U.S. agreed to give Peru almost $3 million to remove some that are still there.

He's being closely guarded to make sure he doesn't attempt suicide. (Apparently, he hit his head against the wall of an elevator and they are taking that as a suicide attempt. I doubt it. No way would he be in an elevator alone and I doubt you kill yourself that way. Maybe it's a story to cover up that someone else bashed his head into the wall of an elevator?)

A Peruvian lawyer, Rosa Luisa Camargo, has been appointed for him, but the Republica reports he now wants a Dutch lawyer. The opposite was reported yesterday.

I haven't checked the wires in an hour or so and they change fast. Maybe some of these questions have been answered. What doesn't add up to you about the reports?

Our prior coverage with more links is assembled here.

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    Cnn update (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by kasey9 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:28:30 PM EST
    CNN (Jane Velez mitchell) update is also stating that there were two pepsi bottles ..one pepsi (not completely empty) & the other a Diet pepsi totally (empty) five cigarette butts, the room was a mess sheets off bed and mattress moved and she was laying in her black top and red panties with Jorans beige shirt draped over her...her knees folded up to her chest and her arms wide spead across- one on each side of her body. blood coming from her nose only - according to the report. Bruising (from decomposition, I would assume) also stating her earrings were on & watch.  Says the window that the coroner is giving of time of death is between 48 - 72 hours....prior to the time she was found...what a wide window....???

    Do we know how long until the results of autopsy?

    They also recognize & state that the video clips have been edited!!!!

    Yeah, the ME said that to (none / 0) (#9)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:33:59 PM EST
    Greta's team and I forgot to mention it, that the mattress was I think they said "pulled away from the corner," which is why he said the blunt force trauma to her head could have come from the bedframe if she'd been shoved violently.

    then again (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:41:36 PM EST
    maybe he told her the money he owed her was under the mattress and she hit her head while trying to move it away to look under it. Or maybe when he went for coffee, she started searching on her own and tried to move the mattress and hit her head, and when he returned, she was dead, he panicked and fled. I think anything is still possible at this point.

    I think the "if she'd been shoved violently" comes from media speculation from the ME's comment she could have hit her head on the bedframe.


    Actually (none / 0) (#20)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:55:01 PM EST
    Fuhrman specifically said the ME said there would not have been enough force, in the ME's opinion, to damage her head that badly on the bedframe just from falling herself.

    "Shoved violently" is my phrase in this case.  But I don't think you can physically smash your skull and break your neck by losing your balance when you're shoving a mattress.  You'd at least have to be standing up, suddenly lose your footing somehow, and come crashing down hard from height.


    What the ME said (none / 0) (#27)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:12:52 PM EST
    From Fuhrman's report to Greta:

    "And as far as the weapon, the ME made some interesting speculations. He opined that the kind of box frame to the bed, a European-style bed where the mattress sits on top -- the mattress was askew in the corner. It was away, as if the victim right where she laid below that corner, possibly that corner of that hardwood frame could have been what she collided with on the back of her head. But he opined this, that the force, if it was her that fell or tripped, would not be sufficient to cause the massive damage to her head. She would have to have been driven into that bed frame by some other force, that being another human."


    Yes, CNN Jean Casarez states the same (none / 0) (#16)
    by kasey9 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:43:51 PM EST
    Jean Casarez is now reporting live from the police report obtained through a leaked report to a meida station...the mattress is being reported as being pulled away from the wall...her arms are being reported as wide open and legs poulled up to her chest...they say it does not indicate a defense motion as her arms were spread wide not clenched up...

    reports coming out she (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:35:15 PM EST
    wasn't drugged and had insufficient alcohol to mean much. No sexual intercourse found (forcible or otherwise.) They've ruled out sex as a motive.

    The photos I've seen show the bedspread on and the mattress slightly askew. Also, she was wearing jeans and the M.E. said she was fully clothed.

    Her father is the one who said her jewelry was and money were missing. He's been wrong about a lot of things (not to blame him, but still, he's not been accurate.)


    Jeralyn- (none / 0) (#23)
    by kasey9 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:00:43 PM EST
    Thank you so much for the updates!!

    I cannot believe how many inaccuracies are out there...it just simply looks like they had him at guilty as soon as they found out his name...(As her brother stated he lloked his name up on the internet)....

    Are they actually saying what the motive is...not rape...not robbery...perhaps it was accidental...has any one at all, considered that theory...?


    Which I think proves (none / 0) (#26)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:07:45 PM EST
    We need to wait for the trial and see what is presented then.  As the Chief of Police said - this is still an ongoing investigation, so I think taking the word of any one press source is a bit premature.  Maybe we can filter some out, but we won't know the whole story until we are able to see the whole video and hear the witnesses in the entirety.

    *Jean Casarez live in Lima is reporting (none / 0) (#17)
    by kasey9 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:45:37 PM EST
    I'd like a plausible theory (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:30:41 PM EST
    on why she has her head down the whole time in the surveillance video.

    I also found it quite striking that Joran goes first down the corridor and also into the room.  That's an especially odd thing for a European man to do.  I can't quite make sense of it.  He's smirking and confident, she's trailing behind with her shoulders slumped and her head down.  It's as if she had to go with him for some reason but wasn't happy about it, and he was.

    Any body language experts out there?

    If she was going to the hotel against her (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:18:20 PM EST
    will, wouldn't she be in front of him as they walked away from registration desk?

    Indeed (none / 0) (#57)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:35:22 PM EST
    That's what puzzles me.  He's supremely confident she will follow him, yet she's not even pretending to be happy about going with him.

    I really don't know what to make of it, which is why I'm asking.


    That part seems to indicate to me (none / 0) (#61)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:47:03 PM EST
    a situation where they may have been on their way to someplace else but had to stop back at his room to get something or do something first.  Or at least that was what she (and maybe he) thought. They have the look of two people running an errand together, not as someone bringing a guest to his room.

    I agree all this (none / 0) (#78)
    by JamesTX on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 10:30:09 PM EST
    is odd and catches attention. One explanation is they are just tired. They have been up all night partying and gambling. She may just be in a near stupor -- "dragging", so to speak. But you make some good points when coupled with the fact that she drove them there in her car, and he shows no sign of being concerned about keeping track of her. Theoretically they just met 1 or 2 hours earlier. It would seem there would be more formality and attention to each other. They look like my wife and I going home after a long day shopping at WalMart.

    The other thing is that she is supposedly a fully out lesbian. Of course, it is hard to make any generalizations or predictions about what that means and what to expect in her behavior, any more than making predictions based on heterosexuality. In fact, that isn't why I think this is not sexual. I think this was not a sexual rendezvous for other reasons. As Jeralyn noted, I think they were going to the room to get high or to do some other kind of business, up to and including just to sleep. He just doesn't show the typical signs of having that on his mind. He would be paying more attention to her physically.

    There is absolutely none of the chivalrous courtesies so common in European men as stated. That stuff is almost habitual and unavoidable behavior for those of us over 50, but not so habitual for younger men. After all, the behavior became unpopular with the feminist movement, and I have to consciously stop myself now from opening doors for women because I have been sneered at and snapped at for doing it quite a bit. I don't like to be sneered at like I am Jethro Clampitt, because I'm not. Of course, for me, it is just something my parents taught me to do -- it has no symbolism whatsoever. It doesn't mean I want anything from the woman or that I think the woman is weak. In fact, I fully see women as stronger in all aspects now than men, and especially stronger than me! It is just a habit as deeply ingrained in my motor behavior as walking. For younger men, though, they have been taught not to do it.

    I also see something in his mannerism in the slow-motion footage of him collecting the key from the front desk. There is something in the way he held it high and waived it. I'm not sure what that is about. It could be he was simply emphasizing to the clerk with body language that he had taken the key. It could also be an exaggerated expression of fatigue and relief that they were finally off the street.

    I think we may be reading way too much into a picture of two exhausted people going to a hotel room. On the other hand, it is curious.


    Good thoughts (none / 0) (#83)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:22:43 PM EST
    And you're so right they look like an old married couple coming home after a tedious day (except for that smirk of his, though)

    But a couple of points.  There's no reason to think Joran necessarily knew she was an out lesbian.  And frankly, there are those men who are so full of themselves that they would consider that a fun challenge, not a bar to expecting sex.

    Secondly, although it's not factual evidence, it was certainly widely reported during the Holloway hoo-had that he generally was in the habit of treating women, at least the young U.S. tourists, pretty crudely.  He made a habit of trolling the casino there whenever a group of U.S. teenagers came in for a post-graduation fling.

    Also, there's a fairly well-known (apparently) Peruvian singer who found himself seated next to Joran at the poker tables during the course of the evening, and he said he was shocked at the crude way he spoke to his male companion of women and his desire to go get some action.  Guy's name is Roberto Blades.  He was on the Van Susteren program this evening, and he turns up in a lot of Spanish-language papers telling his story, but I've only tried to do the auto translate on a couple of them.

    Lastly, American men have indeed gotten beaten up by a lot of women for overdoing the door-opening, chair-pulling, "chivalrous" behavior, but I don't know that that's the case either in the Netherlands or in Aruba.  I tend to think it would be less so.

    "I think we may be reading way too much into a picture of two exhausted people going to a hotel room. On the other hand, it is curious."

    Agree with you entirely on that!


    Well, (none / 0) (#33)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:22:03 PM EST
    it WAS his room  He would've had to unlock the door.

    Maybe he just isn't a gentleman?


    Clearly! (none / 0) (#58)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:39:00 PM EST
    But I have <ahem> gone with a male personage to his hotel room once or twice in my life and I have never not had the man step back to let me go in ahead of him after unlocking the door.  Never.  Not in a business situation, not in a non-business situation.

    It's just odd, especially because European men are usually far, far more courteous about this kind of thing than American men tend to be.


    I've always wondered about that though (none / 0) (#63)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:49:02 PM EST
    In some situations isn't it more gentlemanly for the man to go in first and make sure the coast is clear?

    Well, I've never (none / 0) (#86)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:29:07 PM EST
    had a situation where a man did that in a hotel room unless he had a roommate...

    Going into an unknown public space-- say, an unfamilar pub in a strange town that looks OK from the outside but you can't see through the windows-- would maybe do that.  But not a private space like a hotel room.

    In any case, they'd peer around through the door or even go in but then turn and invite the woman to come in with a nod that the coast is clear.  Here he doesn't quite let the door slam in her face, but he shows no concern about her at all.

    As James says, making too much of this for its value, it's just curious.


    Her head down possibly (none / 0) (#48)
    by Untold Story on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 07:15:37 PM EST
    because she didn't want anyone to recognize her?

    because it was 5:30 a.m. and she was very tired?

    because she was somewhat ashamed as a South American girl to be trotting after someone to a hotel room?

    because she has lost all her money and was worried about what to tell her father?

    because that is the way she always walks?


    All possible (none / 0) (#59)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:40:30 PM EST
    If she'd lost all her money, though, when did that happen?  Casino video apparently shows her winning a pot just before she and Joran left, no?

    Dr Laura Guess blog (none / 0) (#94)
    by purplebutterfly21 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 at 08:00:33 AM EST
    for interpretation of body language of tapes.

    According to CNN (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:52:26 PM EST
    As of 20 hours ago:

    A hotel worker is also seen in the video speaking to van der Sloot as he is leaving the hotel, Peru Interior Ministry spokesman Carlos Gonzalo said. When investigators questioned the worker, he told them that van der Sloot told him "don't bother my girl," according to Gonzalo.

    Van der Sloot indicated to the hotel worker that he would be returning to the room, Gonzalo said.

    Surveillance video from a casino -- also recorded on May 30 -- shows Flores and van der Sloot playing cards at the same table, he said. The woman won about 5,000 soles (about $1,755), though it was not found in the room or the victim's car, Gonzalo said.

    Flores' body was badly beaten and investigators believe a tennis racquet in the room was used in the killing, Gonzalo said.

    He said "they found bloodied clothes with" van der Sloot and that investigators are testing them, as well as the tennis racquet, for DNA.

    The hotel workers became suspicious after no one else left the room, and eventually a foul smell came from it, Gonzalo said. It wasn't immediately clear how much time lapsed between the conversation on video and workers noticing the smell.

    So the surevillance video shows her with the 5000 soles ($1755) winnings as of May 30 - not winning from Elton Garcia.

    Not good for the detained suspect. (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:14:43 PM EST
    Bloodied clothes with him upon arrest.  Wondered what was in that gym bag.  But, didn't he turn himself in?  

    Depends on which report you read (none / 0) (#31)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:18:04 PM EST
    I've read he turned himself in and said he didn't kill her and other reports where they say that's not what happened.



    Given the inaccuracies (none / 0) (#74)
    by JamesTX on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:35:00 PM EST
    rampant in reports coming from all these sources, everything is obviously subject to having been embellished a bit if not outright fabricated. All this started out with Joran hanging a "Do Not Disturb" sign on the door, a non-fact clearly demonstrated in video that subsequently appeared.

    There is money for the media, and for anyone who talks to them, in sensationalizing to imply Joran's guilt. The story the public wants to hear and is willing to pay for is anything that emphasizes how outrageous it is that he was free to begin with. One comment I read was that "women are safer tonight." That's the only attitude we can expect from the media. As I said, he has become a bigger-than-life symbol of three major issues which automatically raise anger to the level of incoherent babbling -- (1) crime going unpunished, (2) violence against women, and (3) white male privilege. The confluence of those three sentiments will kill anybody. He hasn't got a chance in the media. Those issues sell, and they sell big. Nobody wants hear any evidence to the contrary, nor will they even recognize it when they see it. The facts for the vast majority of the world right now are exactly what somebody said to me today -- "he killed again."

    Right now, the "bloody clothing" report has about as much credibility as the "Do Not Disturb" sign story. If it is true at all, there is an incredibly wide range of facts which could masquerade under that vague statement. Of course, what the true believer imagines when they hear that is blood soaked garments out of the movie psycho. I sincerely doubt that to be the case. If nothing else, he would have discarded anything that obvious. "Bloody clothing" could be anything from something that resulted from him cutting himself shaving (his sideburns disappeared in this somewhere) to soiled clothing that simply was assumed to be blood. After all, there is evidence he was into some red hair dye during that 24 hour period. I'm not figuring in any "bloody clothing" into my speculations until that report is made a little more specific.


    Exactly so (none / 0) (#88)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:43:49 PM EST
    From bits and pieces I've heard from the good reporters on the ground on CNNHeadline and Fox, "bloody clothing" is indeed an exaggerration. IOW, he wasn't carrying around blood-soaked clothes, but items with small suspicious spots on them that are being tested.

    To be fair, a lot of the bad reporting on this initially came from Peru, and possibly some of it is the same bad translation we've had trouble with here.

    Of course, the sensationalists in the media here are happy to seize on the most gruesome reports without worrying about whether they're true, or even likely, or not.

    But the bad reporting has come primarily from Peru media, and U.S. has just happily repeated it.


    Elton Garcia was there too (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:10:14 PM EST
    I don't know who she won money from or if she won money. As I said, there are conflicting reports. Why don't you research him?

    It is my understanding (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 02:53:37 PM EST
    that she didn't win $5000.  She won approximately $1755 - it was 5000 (whatever units) in Peruvian money.  That was shown on the videotapes and no money was found with her body - hence the robbery angle.

    that's the money Elton said (none / 0) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:24:38 PM EST
    she won earlier in May. See my earlier posts with links to the actual news articles.

    I agree its not clear if she won any money from Joran that night or vice versa.


    With respect to the credit cards (none / 0) (#2)
    by nyjets on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 02:58:29 PM EST
    Also, people may not bother stealing credit cards because in the long run they are not worth it. Using a stolen credit card can be very easily check and be used to link a potential suspect. Given a choice, some thiefs may steal cash but ignore the credit cards as not worth it (unless they have a way of using the cards without being caught).

    But could it be (none / 0) (#3)
    by Lacy on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:13:50 PM EST
    as simple as having that camera fixed on the door and its showing just the two of them going in and no one but Juron coming out?

    Not without (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:23:02 PM EST
    proof she died within that time frame and not without showing continuous camera coverage between the time they entered the room and the time her body was found showing no one else entered. They are showing selected snippets that serve their theory.

    CNN on site in peru (none / 0) (#13)
    by kasey9 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:40:18 PM EST
    Cnn - reporting from a LEAKED police report - Jean Casarez Agrees that the videos we are seeing of them entering the hotel room have been edited...to cordinate their theory that Joran is Guilty...He needs a good lawyer, he would not be the first human being that has been framed or in fact found guilty of a crime in which he or she didn't commit.  

    The bigger question, (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:31:03 PM EST
    The bigger question, given the speculation of robbery as a motive, is did Joran lose, and ask Stephany to drive him back to his hotel so he could get her the money?
    I may be wrong, but generally I don't think you will find people to gamble with you unless you have the money you are betting in hand...

    I would have thought that too (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:36:11 PM EST
    isn't casino poker played with pre-paid chips? Don't you just bring your chips to the window if you win? I guess people could make side bets though.

    Maybe, however (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 05:21:51 PM EST
    I think it would be pretty hard to find someone who would take your side bets unless you had the cash or chips in hand.

    Jeralyn, thanks for (none / 0) (#12)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:38:11 PM EST
    struggling with the news reports out of Peru.  They're at least a little closer to the action there, but I still think we have to wait for reliable U.S. investigative type reporters and producers to filter out as much of the noise as possible.

    In particular, I'm hoping somebody can get into that room soon so we know whether it has another door or not.

    Seems to me that short of a giant Peruvian law enforcement conspiracy, if there'd been another person going in and out of that hall door, we'd have heard about it by now, but it would be good to get explicit confirmation.

    there's no other door (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:43:14 PM EST
    that came from a faulty google translation. It's a high rise. And the employee said she went back to the room, not that she went through a back door. See my last post on that with the addition.

    Gotcha. Thanks. (none / 0) (#21)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:56:31 PM EST
    according to this hotel guide (none / 0) (#22)
    by ding7777 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:00:08 PM EST
    Hotel Tac Sac has both an exterior and an interior room entrance

    that's an interent guide not the (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:02:08 PM EST
    hotel site and the hotel site makes no reference to other doors. And if you read the article with her quote, you'll see she said she went back to the room.

    In U.S. hotels/motels (none / 0) (#60)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:43:29 PM EST
    anyway, that language means they have some rooms with interior, some with exterior, not that rooms have both.  It's especially pointed out by lower-priced hotels, like Motel 6, because although some people want the convenience of the outside door, others (like me!) would rather have a buffer from the outside world.  This was a hotel apparently in that general class.

    309 (none / 0) (#95)
    by purplebutterfly21 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 at 08:11:53 AM EST
    the room is on the third floor.

    Is anyone surprised CNN has (none / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 03:51:57 PM EST
    reporters in Peru to follow this story?  Do other national U.S. media have reporters in Peru also?

    Also, kdog, will you shed some light on the paying off gambling debts?

    yes Fox has reporters there too (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:01:07 PM EST
    including Phil Keating (and of course its own Mark Furhman)

    Do you have an opinion why Fuhrman is (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:13:31 PM EST
    (if he is) considered to be credible now but wasn't in the OJ trial?

    FWIW (none / 0) (#62)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:48:12 PM EST
    Other than by F. Lee Bailey, Fuhman's competence as a detective hasn't ever been in question that I know of.  He was known as a meticulous professional detective.  From what I've seen of him on Greta's show back when she was doing crime stories more and used him now and then, he's very good at getting precise info both from crime scenes and local law enforcement and frequently ends up knocking down the speculation and rumors that surround any high-profile case.

    Yes Cnn (none / 0) (#29)
    by kasey9 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:13:52 PM EST
    Reporting Live for CNN is Jean Casarez, in fron tof Lima Police Station

    No (none / 0) (#35)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:27:03 PM EST
    This is sexy stuff.  Stuff always happens in the summer, it seems.  We had Michael Jackson's death last summer. Summer 2008 was the election.   Natalee Holloway in the summer of 2005. Chandra Levy's disappearance in the summer of 2001.

    These people LIVE for this kind of stuff.


    Honestly, it is a fascinating (none / 0) (#64)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:50:42 PM EST
    case, as was the Chandra Levy case.  If you like detective and mystery novels, as I do, having something this complex play out in real time is catnip.  Personally, I'd far rather a good murder mystery than Sandra Bullock's marital woes or Gary Coleman's ex-wife's perfidy or lack thereof.

    Yes, I was thinking that too earlier (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:52:47 PM EST
    I read a good mystery novel in a weekend - this is like being forced to only read a few pages at a time, the way the information dribbles out.

    Yup (none / 0) (#75)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:37:26 PM EST
    what makes this interesting along with the good mystery aspect {no disrespect intended towards all involved!} is the real time conversations here as to the various bit of info etc.

    What I'm wondering now, IF he did both NH and Steph, why was one so f'ing neat and the other so damn sloppy? Nothing really adds up on that front to me. I didn't follow the NH disappearance/murder?, so I'm just eating up the current catnip . . . .


    Yes, they are disimilar, but (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by ding7777 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 10:44:43 PM EST
    if Joran committed both the difference would be that he had his father and the Police Captain(?) to clean up the NH mess

    If, as seems likely (none / 0) (#87)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:38:34 PM EST
    Natalee died on an isolated, empty beach in the wee hours with no witnesses, either accidently or by his hand somehow, there's no "mess" to clean up other than the body.

    There's been a great deal of speculation as to what happened to her body, whether it was hauled out to sea in a small boat and dumped or temporarily buried and then dumped in a marsh with the help of Daddy or various other scenarios.  The Aruban authorities are reportedly getting serious now about more thoroughly investigating a couple of likely places they gave short shrift to five years ago.

    Much, much different in a hotel room, where there's really not much of anything you can do, other than turn the TV on, tell the staff you'll be back and not to go in, and beat it out of town.

    If -- IF -- he is responsible for the death of both of these girls, I don't think in either case it was intentional in the sense of premeditated.  It was either a sudden violent rage at being denied something, or rough treatment, or in Natalee's case possibly purely accidental from too much alcohol and maybe drugs.


    You gotta... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 05:35:45 PM EST
    pay up front for your chips to play in a casino...the only debt you could incur to another player is a straight up loan or personal side bet of some sort...both almost unheard of unless you know the person.

    News channels use freelancers in (none / 0) (#44)
    by Joan in VA on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 06:12:44 PM EST
    foreign countries. They rarely send reporters from the US.

    Also, CNN isn't covering this story-Headline News is. CNN has barely mentioned this story. HLN(which was once CNN2) covers crime stories and Hollywood stuff. Both owned by Time-Warner but very different branding for each.


    I meant as far as on-air coverage. Doh! (none / 0) (#45)
    by Joan in VA on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 06:14:39 PM EST
    Yes, CNN Headline (none / 0) (#66)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:53:03 PM EST
    CNN proper has a Latin American affairs editor down there who rarely gets airtime, but he's contributing bits and pieces, as well.  He doesn't seem very happy about it, either!

    Also Fox has at least one producer and occasional crime coverage contributor Mark Fuhrman there.


    Re earlier reference to possible (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:24:53 PM EST
    post mortem bruising:  -link

    It is possible, but seems to stem from application of pressure to the dead body, i.e., body doesn't just bruise after death.  

    body swells (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:11:48 PM EST
    gases ooze and it changes considerably. The condition of the body 3 days later may be different in important respects from how it was at death. Particularly without freezing or embalming it.

    Blood alcohol post mortem: (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:28:55 PM EST
    thoughts (none / 0) (#37)
    by pac on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:57:24 PM EST
    Well, do the hotels rooms have connecting doors to other rooms which are sometimes opened when people rent rent two rooms or sometimes locked?
    Was it ever determined if there is a backdoor?
    If there are is not a connecting door and not a backdoor then whoever comes and goes should be seen on video, if the video camera is untampered and working properly. If a video camera is turned off at some point is that obvious, such as the clock affected?  

    The other man, Garcia, supposedly asked someone to check Joran's room. That appeared a little too worried for someone who didn't know him well. Joran could have been in someone else's room or with a girl or whatever or just forgotten about dinner. At the same time, facts and reporting are too hard to sort for accuracy, as the NY lawyer, Tacopina indicated.

    I read a report stating that Stephany was found with a head injury with blood coming from her ear, nose and one side of her head., possibly hit the bed frame. The article stated the stabbing reports were untrue. Since reading that article I have read more about stabbing but unsure if those reports are repeats from earlier misinformed sources?  

    There are also varied reports about finding or not finding any blood stained clothes. Some articles claim Joran had blood stained clothes in his bag which are being evaluated. Others claim no blood stained clothes. So, if you have time to hang out somewhere and dye your hair do you not lose the blood stain clothes along the way too? I suspect there are more reporting errors but ?  nothing surprised me anymore.

    Also, odd the FBI sting operation, extortion, and no one bothers to determine where Joran is headed after Aruba reported he was leaving the country with the money he was given?  Just one of many confusing facts but ??????  

    Somewhere I read that Joran had a hotel room in Chile, possibly a place he was staying more long term? but unsure.  If that information is correct than he wasn't exactly heading for a border but had a reason to travel in that direction. With normal circumstances it would be feasible to think he was going there for some reason with an intention to return to Peru. Regardless, given the much publicized previous case it is difficult not to expect the worst.

    The more I read comment sections it is obvious that I am not alone in questioning many of the circumstances to be sure Joran is the actual lone suspect, which he is reportedly considered, but the dyed hair? More and more notice of the mention of the dyed hair in comment sections. Odd that the more serious aspects are often fairly considered but many are unable to understand the dyed hair. Although it is unknown or unreported where Joran was during the journey to Chile, it would be interesting to know where he dyed his hair along the way. Regardless what happened in Aruba, each case must be evaluated, guilt factor, independently. Having seen earlier pictures of Joran with dyed hair it is obvious this is not the first time he has that color but?  how to explain unless he stopped for a hair make over along the way. Who knows?  The fact is many are uninformed that he had the color before but even knowing that the hair color change is proving to be a first impression factor that prevents further scrutiny of other factors. Just read comment sections and notice that people assume he dyed his hair and headed for the border. Does anyone know how to explain the hair change during the trip or are things just as they appear?

    The Dutch lawyer claims Joran was in the process of turning himself in and possibly there are e mails to confirm.

    My thought after reading the various confessions Juron was giving was he appeared to be either emotionally distraught due to the Holloway experience and wanted to explain or he was needing help of some kind. Then there was the reporter who tricked Juron into believing they were good friends but taped him saying Natalee died while making out... and then exposed his confession to the world basically. Was this a good thing to chance if dealing with a person who could be having emotional problems, whether a result of what happened in the Holloway case, media circus, or other? Why not just show the tape to police and determine if there is a case rather than share with the public information obtained which doesn't end useful in the end? Keep in mind the people tampering with Joran's mind and feelings believed him to be a criminal. Bottom line, could Joran have been run over the edge? by the very people who believed he could be dangerous? Maybe he wasn't dangerous and run over the edge as a result of an accident or was dangerous and run over the edge. Either way, somewhere in the past handling and even with so much visibility, another tragic situation.

    It is reported that Joran made the call after his father died and asked for money in return for information. Possibly Juron wanted money for information if he felt he needed to leave the area as a result. Otherwise, it is difficult to imagine he just called and demanded money. Is there more to this story? If not, then why more action?

    Regardless whether Natalee was an accident panic case or more, Juron appears guilty in Peru. Regardless that Juron appears guilty in Peru it is important to examine every aspect to be sure.

    no back door (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:12:43 PM EST
    see my comment above and my earlier posts. The employee said she went back to the room, not she went through a back door. Google translation was off.

    Hmmm.... (none / 0) (#38)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 05:02:31 PM EST
    The other man, Garcia, supposedly asked someone to check Joran's room. That appeared a little too worried for someone who didn't know him well

    If that's true, it may not be as strange as it seems.  Remember - Van der Sloot is internationally famous (infamous) because of the Natalee Holloway story.  If this story is true, maybe Garcia realized who Joran was and was very concerned for the girl.

    he'd been playing with both (none / 0) (#54)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:14:59 PM EST
    of them before. He was meeting Joran for dinner. He had Joran's number in his cell phone. Maybe you should read some more about the reports of what he told police. There are many of them, with inconsistencies.

    Question - Video of Joran with 2 cups coffee ? (none / 0) (#41)
    by kasey9 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 05:42:49 PM EST
    Why are they not airing the video that was being reported at by several news stations that Joran at 8:50 am left hotel room and brought back two cups of coffee and breakfast bread?  

    Has any one found footage of that hotel video?

    Haven't seen it (none / 0) (#42)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 05:54:54 PM EST
    But so what?  It may show evidence that she was alive, but then again, anyone with an IQ over 50 who watches any TV would know that if there is a security camera, you could fake an alibi by getting two cups of coffee.

    Video will show change of shirt (none / 0) (#92)
    by kasey9 on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 08:24:02 AM EST
    The video will show whether he has changed his shirt or stiull wearing shirt from night before...

    they haven't shown it (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:16:46 PM EST
    so we don't know what he was wearing when he left to get coffee. They must have it. Maybe it shows him already with his new shirt on. But that would blow their theory.

    Why does that blow the (none / 0) (#67)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:58:43 PM EST
    theory?  Seems to me it would more likely confirm it.  If he killed her, or she died accidentally while he was there, seems much more likely to have happened in between their entrance to the room and his first exit to go for coffee than after he brought back coffee and before he left for good, which was a very short timeframe.

    What if..... (none / 0) (#43)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 06:09:45 PM EST
    He went for the coffee and came back to the room and found her looking for money and he lost it? But then, the arms are spread out, hmmmm. Not in defense mode. You can tell that there is not any romance in the air as there is no hand holding or any body contact. Like two robots. Not even friendly chatter. When he went into the hotel room he barely held the door open for her. We have all stayed in hotels and know that the beds are sitting on a base that does not allow losing things under the bed. But, they do move and slide from the top and he might have hidden his 'stuff' under the bed and she was looking.

    I really do not understand the immediate trip to Chile. I mean, they had hardly any sleep. He was riding around in a cab. He had time to snip and dye his hair. Did he mention to his acquaintance that he was leaving in the morning?Yes, the friend could have lied but if he is not on the video tape going into the apt, how big a lie? The video camera can not be selective on who it photographs and although we have not seen days of it anywhere, would Peru frame this man and erase evidence of someone else?

    His Mother stood up for him last time but she says she has not seen him since the Father's funeral and I have not seen where she is hopping a plane for Peru. There are just so many possibilities. Where is Columbo when we need him. Just one more thing.....Heh

    Accident seems less likely (none / 0) (#46)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 06:25:13 PM EST
    Yes, it seems purposeful.  The theory that she was pushed and 'accidently' hit her head seems less likely with the info that she had a small cut on her elbow, an injury to a finger and scratches on her chin.

    Yes, but not pre-mediated (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 07:35:54 PM EST
    If he 'lost' it, there might have been a tennis racket, etc. I have seen people just lose it and not be able to control the temper. Thus, abusive spouses and shaken babies. And with his history, he just ran for it.

    That's my guess (none / 0) (#68)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:01:29 PM EST
    The guy does seem to have a temper. He's twice thrown things at TV people after doing interviews, etc.

    Relevant in Peru (none / 0) (#69)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:04:49 PM EST
    Is pre-meditation relevant in Peru?  I know a sentence is different for murder v robbery/murder, but I hadn't heard there was a difference sentence for pre-meditation.

    So right you are. (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 10:44:56 PM EST
    I have no clue what their laws are there. But, at least for discussion, if in USA, there is a difference. Why buy mystery books when we have a live mystery going on right now. Heh.

    In California, murder is in the first (none / 0) (#81)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:07:39 PM EST
    degree if the prosecution proves premeditation and all the other elements) beyond a reasonable doubt.  W/o premeditation, must be 2nd degree murder or less.  link

    Oh, there was clearly a big struggle (none / 0) (#89)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:47:23 PM EST
    with someone.  She wasn't just inspecting her nail polish and keeled over and hit her head.  ME's report on the condition of her body makes that very clear.

    Nothing is as it seems (none / 0) (#47)
    by Untold Story on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 06:40:20 PM EST
    This story does not make one ounce of sense from any aspect.

    Sending $15,000 to someone you feel killed your own daughter is totally irresponsible.  

    Why didn't Beth Holloway get the FBI involved from the beginning of the case so they could apprehend Van der Sloot when he received the money?  

    Peru needs to leave emotion at the door and get facts and be obligated to let the world know facts rather than these silly stories that continually contradict each other.

    The ME said Stephany did not have a broken neck.  She died of blunt force trauma to the head.  This is nonsense about a bat or a racket.

    We have to put the Aruba case away for the time being as it seems to be distorting ever getting true facts in this case.  Everyone wants to be America's hero, it is obvious.  Justice must prevail in all cases and decided by facts.

    I believe this victim's father has his own agenda to follow as he is famous and does not want his name and his family's name tarnished in any way.

    God help this young man. He is in terrible trouble at this time and probably will not live to ever see a trial. My opinion is they are trying to set up suicide early, so his death won't be too much of a shock to the world.

    Facts (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 07:29:32 PM EST
    The ME report is out.  It diagrams a broken neck along with bruised left cheek, scratched chin, blunt trauma torso, bruise inside of elbow, red knees and bruised feet.

    It wasn't a 'silly story' but the language barrier that translated tennis 'bat' as baseball bat.

    You state that Peru needs to leave emotion at the door then come up with a suicide conspiracy theory.  good grief.


    Peru has a long history (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 08:27:17 PM EST
    of blaming inmate deaths on other inmates when they were murders committed by guards. I posted a link to the fact-finding report on it. It was in the 90's and supposedly things have changed, but there are still abuses that go on.

    From the U.S. State Department report in March, 2010:

    Prison guards and fellow inmates reportedly abused prisoners. There were deaths of inmates in prisons, most attributed to fellow inmates, but some were due to negligence by guards. Guards received little or no training or supervision. Corruption was a serious problem, and some guards cooperated with criminal bosses who oversaw the smuggling of guns and drugs into prisons.

    Wow (none / 0) (#70)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:06:38 PM EST
    You might want to read up on this before you excoriate others for getting the facts wrong.

    Just for starters, the Holloways DID get the FBI involved, the FBI are the ones who carried out the "sting" and they DID tape him accepting the money.  For reasons only the FBI can explain, if they ever do, they decided not to arrest him at that point.

    Secondly, she most certainly did have a broken neck as per police report of the initial examination of the body by said ME.  What the ME said is that that's not what killed her, the head injury killed her.

    There was a tennis racket left in the room.  Whether it has anything to do with what happened to her is yet unknown.  I'm betting it didn't.

    But I guess you've worked out your own narrative, so facts be d**ned.


    Even bigger question? (none / 0) (#71)
    by ricobravo on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:10:48 PM EST
    Maybe they played the ultimate poker game winner takes all. Hence, the last hand was a deadly poker game. Losser dies and the winner takes all the money, freaks out and runs to Chile.

    Hmm maybe her last wish was a cup of coffee...

    The facts remained to be seen.. Someone reported earlier that if he is found guilty Joran will face the "law of the donkey". What exactly is that?

    Another odd detail (none / 0) (#72)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:11:44 PM EST
    Jean Casarez on CNN Headline says what prompted the discovery of the body was that a woman called from the casino asking to speak to Joran at 11:00 PM local Tuesday night.

    When nobody picked up the phone in the room, that apparently reminded the hotel manager that Joran hadn't paid for the last few nights.  The door was locked, nobody answered, but the TV was blaring.  He or the maid or whoever got a key and unlocked the door and found Stephany Flores dead.

    So who was the woman?

    My odd detail (none / 0) (#73)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:31:56 PM EST
    Is the clothing...

    Apparently the perpetrator leaves the shirt Joran was wearing (when he entered the room) draped over Stephanie.

    Then clothing with blood on it is found in his belongings.

    I don't get why he would (none / 0) (#76)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:46:10 PM EST
    cart bloody clothes with him (is this a "fact"?). He had plenty of time and geography to ditch anything that might incriminate him (if he did it).

    He may have let her borrow his shirt.
    They may have gone back to chill in the room for a few hours (she could have been pretty much over the night and tired so that's why she's just following in the video) and he casually let her use his shirt if she was chilly or needed some cover since she came in with no luggage and it was his room. She could have been just crashing there at his invitation with an understanding she would leave later in the day after resting up. Not that uncommon . . .


    Not fact until DNA (none / 0) (#77)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 10:17:55 PM EST
    The blood could be his from some minor accident.  You get the dramatist saying 'drenched in blood' but I did not hear any description of the blood from the police.

    It wasn't a matter of being chilled though borrowing a shirt wouldn't seem odd.  The description was that it was laid over her after death.  It didn't say if this shirt had blood either.  Like I said.... the clothing issue is unclear and I imagine it won't be clear until DNA has been completed.


    She wasn't wearing the shirt (none / 0) (#91)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:50:03 PM EST
    it had clearly been draped over her as she lay on the floor.

    Which is also passing strange.  Why do that?


    tipped off (none / 0) (#82)
    by pac on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:22:36 PM EST
    Oh, and there continue to be reports indicating Juran a serial killer. Unless there is more determined to fit that description, the serial killer label is probably an indicator of either an investigation or media out of control.

    So first Juran is about date rape then next time stealing. Wouldn't you think killing people there would be a pattern?  Having different motives doesn't establish a pattern.

    Considering the many females I have seen pictured with Juran it is hard to understand why he didn't do anything to the others if there is a pattern. Most likely all of them didn't agree to sex.

    Maybe Juran was tipped off about the fbi and the dyed hair had more to do with being on the run for other reasons?

    Breaking: Reports from Peru (none / 0) (#90)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:49:30 PM EST
    that Joran has confessed and provided a motive, details here.

    Entering the room... (none / 0) (#96)
    by mellyrel on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 03:55:36 AM EST
    I think the reason why he opens the door and goes straight in is because he is 'lending' her the room overnight while he goes to Chile for the tournament. If he was taking her there for sex, he would have been more affectionate, and maybe let her in first. but he had the key so it makes sense he would go in first.Still you would think he would look around to acknowledge her if they were a couple that night. I think he was  leading the way because the had an agreement that he would let her stay there on the 31st so he could play poker in Chile, that would explain why he took his things with him-rather than leave them with a friend of Elton's. Maybe Elton tranferred money to his poker account so he could play in Chile?