Joran Van der Sloot to Be Moved to Miguel Castro Castro Maximum Security Prison

Update: Joran will be held at the Miguel Castro Castro prison for the duration of the investigation phase. The prison was the subject of a huge lawsuit in 2006 for violation of prisoners' rights. (see end of this post for more.)

Update: Report from Peru: Joran is refusing to answer questions without a lawyer. Smart move, if true. He also reportedly asked for a non-Dutch attorney and said he was not arrested in Chile but surrendered, knowing he was being sought. Maybe that's why he wasn't handcuffed.


Original post: Netherlands Offers Defense Attorney to Joran Van der Sloot

Peru may come to regret the gratuitous perp walk of Joran Van der Sloot. A few days ago, the Netherlands said it would not provide a lawyer for Joran Van der Sloot. Today, that's changed.

[More, with updates below]

The Dutch Consulate is now involved in the case and has volunteered a defense attorney for van der Sloot, according to Carlos Neyra, a spokesman for the Peruvian Investigative Police.

...The Dutch Consulate has told Peruvian authorities that it is not comfortable with the way van der Sloot has been presented to the media, Neyra said. The Peruvian Minister of the Interior is asking authorities not to talk about the case without his authorization.

The continually changing and contradictory media reports and statements by officials and family members in this case, make it difficult to form any kind of cohesive theory. [More...]

So many questions. First, did Joran meet Stephany before Sunday night? Elton Garcia, who was gambling with them Sunday night, knew Joran and was staying at the same hotel as Joran, and had met her before and gambled with her before. Did she also know Joran? The police have taken Elton's statement, why do they believe what he told them? What did Stephany do with the money she won playing with Elton two weeks before? How much of a gambler was she? He says "they" gambled with her four times in May. Was she in debt to a loan shark?

In the hotel video, she's not carrying a purse or anything in her hands, so where were the casino winnings? What happened to the $1,000. her father gave her for a laptop? Did she gamble and lose it? Why did she go back to Joran's room, was she afraid to go home having lost her money or pawned her jewelry? Did Joran offer to loan her some money he had back at the room? If she always wears her necklace and jewelry, why isn't she wearing any in the hotel pictures?

She drove from the casino to the hotel in her vehicle. So at 5 a.m., she wasn't drugged.

The baseball bat has morphed into a tennis raquet and the medical examiner says she may have hit her head on the bed frame which caused her to hemorrhage. Was it an accident and he panicked and left? Her brother didn't see her until 72 hours later, by which time of course the body, not having been embalmed or frozen, was grossly distended, leaking gases and decomposed.

What happened to the second cup of coffee? Why didn't they show the video pictures of him leaving to get coffee or returning with the coffee so we could see what shirt he was wearing? When and where were these bloody clothes found that reportedly were found with Joran? He wouldn't be stupid enough to take bloody clothes with him knowing he's leaving the country. He would have left them in the room or dumped them after leaving the hotel.

Why didn't he ask for his passport when leaving the hotel, drive her car to the airport and hop a plane back to Aruba or the Netherlands? Especially if he thought he had a day or so before they found the body? Where did he leave her car? What did they find in it?

Why didn't he try to cover-up the body, move it into the closet or a bathtub? Why didn't they scrape under her nails for DNA before they buried her?

Joran had his laptop with him when he was arrested. What's on it? Did he e-mail anyone during the two days after he left the hotel in a panicked state or make any admissions? Did he check airfares or travel routes? Did he search the internet for ways to explain or disguise a murder?

I'm sure I'll think of more questions, this is just the beginning, please feel free to add to the list.

Update: Elton Garcia was playing poker the night of June 3. He was eliminated at 1:48 a.m. on June 4.

Update: What the hotel employee Abad Esmeralda who found the body reportedly told the police:

"I went knocking on the door of Room 309, insisted several times and did not respond, in that act I heard the radio or the TV was turned on at high volume because they listened to outside the room," he said.

"I thought that Mr. Joran was resting and I left ... back, I opened the back door with the key, walked three meters and found that the room light was turned on, just as the regular TV volume. There a pair of canvas sneakers, was completely unmade bed, they had clothes on the floor, "explained the woman.

Finally, he said "turn right and saw that there was one person on the floor, I was scared at that moment, I thought it was the citizens Netherlands and afraid I got closer and saw that he had long hair. When in doubt, and I approached I realized that it was a woman who was dead, had bleeding in the nose, wearing a dark polo red panties, the side was covered with a white garment. "

[Added: I think the Google translation is bad and she probably said when she went back to open the door with a key, not there was a back door to the room.]

Update: Back to the update at the top, in which Joran says he wants a lawyer and surrendered in Chile. If convicted of murder, the sentence may depend on the motive:

[If robbery was the motive] the Dutchman could be sentenced to life imprisonment for the crime of aggravated robbery with death. If you are sentenced for aggravated homicide, we expect 30 years in prison, but with the possibility of getting out in six or seven years for the benefits.

Update: On Miguel Castro-Castro Prison and the 2006 lawsuit:

Approximately 135 female prison inmates (along with about 450 male inmates) were subjected to violent attacks by guards and other state agents over the course of three days at the Castro-Castro maximum security prison. Some female inmates were humiliated, stripped-down and subjected to further physical and psychological abuse. Many inmates were held in solitary confinement, were denied medical care, and were kept from communicating with their families or their attorneys.

The Court found Peru to have violated Articles 4, 5(1), 5(2), 8(1) and 25 of the American Convention on Human Rights, Articles 1, 6 and 8 of the Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture, and Article 7(b) of the Inter-American Convention to Prevent, Punish and Eradicate Violence against Women.

The Court ordered Peru to investigate and punish those responsible for these violations, to return the bodies of any inmates killed to their next of kin, to publicly acknowledge and apologize for these violations, to provide at no cost medical and psychological treatment to the victimized inmates and next of kin, and to pay reparations to the victims or their next of kin.

Here's the full report on the prison violence and abuse, it's disgusting.

That was all in the prior regime, but the violence continues. In January, 2010, the prison warden was murdered (after being on the job one day.)

Peruvian President Alan Garcia also expressed his regrets for Vasquez’s death, and did not hesitate to call it a reprisal for his work in imposing discipline on the Miguel Castro Castro prison, the jail that houses the country’s most dangerous convicts, who are doing time for common crimes, terrorism and drug trafficking.

They seem to have treated Joran pretty well up until this point, and they know the whole world is watching. I presume they are smart enough to put him in solitary for his protection.

Final update: Here is the video of him being interrogated on arrival in Peru, counting his money and examining his laptop.

He sure doesn't seem nervous. Here are the still photos showing Joran's possessions.

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    Excellent questions all (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 09:55:52 AM EST
    Also, do we know that was his laptop and not hers?

    On some of the other questions about his movements and behavior-- seems to me if he killed her intentionally or accidentally, he's not necessarily going to behave in a way that seems totally logical after the fact.  In emergencies and in a state of extreme stress, few of us can think clearly enough to deal sensibly with a whole variety of complicated decisions-- which is, for instance, why we're all repeatedly advised to have an emergency kit and/or "go bag" prepared and waiting just in case.

    Also, FWIW (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 09:58:23 AM EST
    the ME told Fuhrman on Friday that although the damage to her head could have come as a result of her falling and hitting her head on the heavy wood/metal bedframe, he didn't believe it could have done that much damage unless she was violently shoved-- ie, simply tripping and falling wouldn't have done it.

    As I say, FWIW.

    "That" Fuhrman? Yes. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 10:22:06 AM EST
    gag me n/t (none / 0) (#57)
    by JamesTX on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:13:27 PM EST
    could also make it an accident (1.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 10:18:25 AM EST
    if he just meant to shove her. He's a big guy, 6'4".

    Absolutely (1.00 / 1) (#7)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 10:26:50 AM EST
    Actually, it's close to impossible to kill somebody deliberately that way.

    Ah so. (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 10:06:16 AM EST
    Since we are all speculating.... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by vml68 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 01:13:01 PM EST
    Why didn't he ask for his passport when leaving the hotel, drive her car to the airport and hop a plane back to Aruba or the Netherlands?

    You only get your passport back when you are checking out. If he had done that, it is very likely that housekeeping would have found the body within a couple of hours,which does not give him enough time to be on a plane out of the country.

    they knew he was leaving (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 01:28:18 PM EST
    he told them 'don't wake up my girl.'

    Leaving yes.... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by vml68 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 01:44:11 PM EST
    checking out, no. If you are checking out, then you cannot say "don't wake up my girl" because that is not your room anymore.

    I have no idea if this guy is innocent or guilty. But, if he was trying to buy time so he could get as far away from the crime scene as possible, then IMO checking out of the hotel would not have been the way to go.


    you're right (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 02:08:33 PM EST
    I just read the hotel employee said he indicated he'd be returning when he told them not to wake "his girl." But he was carrying his gym bag and a backpack, it looks like he's leaving.

    That gym bag looks heavy when he (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 02:22:31 PM EST
    is leaving.

    I realize everyone (3.00 / 1) (#46)
    by JamesTX on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 04:13:44 PM EST
    is speculating about where he was going and why, but if we knew the answer to that question, the case would be solved. Everything hinges on that. I think Joran's statements about where he was going and why are what we would most would want to hear (since he reportedly denies the killing). I wonder if we will ever hear what he says about that. It seems the way this usually works is that in a few months we will hear the sentence, and that will be about it.

    I hate speculation, but ... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by robrecht on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:45:35 PM EST
    The idea that the girl was planning on stealing Joran's money doesn't resolve the coincidence that that this occurred on the anniversary of Natalie Holloway's death, in which van der Sloot was at least implicated.

    The idea that Joran chose this date to kill another young woman seems incredibly stupid on his part unless he wanted (was compelled) to regain media attention in another controversial trial.  Maybe that's kind of plausible, I guess.  Might even correspond with his earlier 'confession' impulse or alleged attempts at extortion.

    Further speculation that van der Sloot was set up or framed by a third part is certainly possible but introduces a hypothetical (at this point) actor in this event.  It might explain the coincidence of the date, or it could just be a coincidence.

    Any number of likewise extravagant theories can be developed, of course, and the truth might be stranger than fiction but it usually isn't.

    Rightly or wrongly, I think most of us (outside the courtroom) presume he's guilty.  I wouldn't want my daughter to date the guy and I don't even have a daughter.

    FWIW (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 04:22:28 PM EST
    I think the date is nothing more than a bizarre coincidence.

    I also rather doubt, if he did kill this girl, that he is a serial killer in the sense that, say, Ted Bundy or the BTK killer were.  If he killed her, as with Natalee, I rather think it was either by accident, or on impulse in a sudden rage because he was denied something he wanted, likely either money or sex in this situation.

    I've watched a great deal more of Joran Van Der Sloot in the years since Holloway disappeared than I would have preferred, so FWIW, that's my sense of his personality.

    But it's wildly premature to speculate about motive when we've still learned so little about the evidence.  What we know so far is pretty damning, but we don't really know about other doors to the room, or for absolute certain about surveillance video.

    I'm hoping we will learn more concrete details about the actual evidence on Monday from Greta Van Susteren's team down there, Fuhrman and one of her best producers.


    I don't presume him guilty (3.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:01:55 PM EST
    and neither should anyone else. Particularly here.

    If he were a serial killer, planning to kill the girl, I doubt he would have done it in a hotel room registered in his name.

    We don't know what was up with Stephany any more than we know what he was up to. Her father says they had a fight Friday, and hadn't heard from her since, leading him to believe she had been kidnapped. He apparently gave her $1,000 for a laptop on Friday (which she may have spent and lost gambling.)

    Joran had money, he had just been paid $10 in cash through the sting in Aruba days before arriving in Lima. The poker tournament didn't start till June 1, and he wasn't registered for it, just a "railbird." He had won in prior tournaments, it's what he did. There were 400 people registered for the tournament (including several tennis players.)

    She arrived alone at the casino at 3:20 a.m. and played poker with Elton and Joran until 5, when Joran and she left in her car and drove to his hotel. Which was also Elton's hotel. It doesn't look like she's carrying a purse or any valuables into the hotel. We don't know that she won any money that night -- Elton says she won $2,000 from him at a game in early May. He denied to police he had lost $5,000. to her that night.

    The three of them knew each other. There must have been some reason she went back to his room. It wasn't for sex. Maybe it was to get high. There are so many plausible scenarios, the most likely one to me is they went back to his room to get high. So what went wrong? Maybe there were no drugs. He wouldn't know where to get drugs in Lima, but living there, she might. Maybe earlier in the day or the day before he had given her money to buy drugs and instead she lost the money gambling and didn't tell him until they got back to his room and he got furious and shoved her. Why did she go to the casino alone at 3:00 am? Seems like she knew he was going to be there.

    I think until the forensics come back, we don't know much, and if we're going to speculate, I'd much rather speculate in favor of innocence than guilt.


    Occam's Razor (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by robrecht on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 06:16:36 PM EST
    Just trying to analyze from a logical point of view (ie, Occam's Razor) the various theories of the crime that have been advanced here already.

    There are so many plausible scenarios, the most likely one to me is they went back to his room to get high. So what went wrong? Maybe there were no drugs. He wouldn't know where to get drugs in Lima, but living there, she might. Maybe earlier in the day or the day before he had given her money to buy drugs and instead she lost the money gambling and didn't tell him until they got back to his room and he got furious and shoved her.

    Strictly from a logical point of view, your theory of the crime here, like gryfalcon's, has the disadvantage of the anniversary of Natalee Holloway's death, in which Joran was implicated, being a pure coincidence.  Certainly possible.  1 in 365 chance.

    I see the presumption of innocence as a sacred part of our justice system.  In the courtroom and in police procedures, etc.  But I don't see why I shouldn't also use intelligence and logic to help evaluate other people's speculation that has been allowed here.  If it's just your personal preference that it not be done on your site, I will, of course, abide by that.


    feel free to speculate so long as (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 07:47:08 PM EST
    you make it clear it's speculation and don't claim he's guilty. (You can say you think he is guilty and why.)

    As for Natalee Holloway, I doubt I'll write another word about her. I overdosed on her mother trying to take over the airwaves years ago and won't spend another bit of type on her or the case. Maybe that's why I don't care to address the anniversary issue, especially since to credit it, you have to assume he killed Natalee, was aware it was the anniversary and decided to kill again. I don't think he killed her in the first place. And even if he committed the Peru murder, it doesn't change the lack of evidence he killed Holloway.  Scamming money from someone you hate who you view as ruining your life doesn't make you a murderer.


    Actually (3.00 / 1) (#67)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 07:43:39 AM EST
    Flores won about $1755 in the casino, which was not found in the room.

    Now they are saying the found a tennis racquet in the room, which may be the murder weapon.

    Peru's Interior Minister, Carlos Gonzalo said they found "bloodied clothes" with Van der Sloot and are testing them for DNA.

    And the Netherlands is NOT providing an attorney for Van der Sloot, although they are working to ensure he has one.

    The Netherlands Embassy says it is working with local authorities in the case, but it is not paying for a defense attorney.

    Re: 'in another controversial trial." (1.00 / 1) (#43)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:49:59 PM EST
    This man has not had a criminal trial.

    I meant media trial (3.00 / 1) (#44)
    by robrecht on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:52:59 PM EST
    I love Google Translator... (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by JamesTX on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:10:03 PM EST
    Perhaps it actually brings out more truth in the translations. Below, it seems Joran helped make a journalist, which may be closer to the truth than a better translation!

    I live in Holland, and everyone here knows that he is the murderer of the American girl Natalee Holloway, as even he admitted to a secret chamber in a documentary that made a journalist.

    This was the rendition of part of the original Spanish comment #17 to Van der Sloot wants a lawyer at Peru21.

    When I read documentary I (4.00 / 2) (#56)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:12:51 PM EST
    think "Polanski"!

    some of us are taking this (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:29:54 PM EST
    seriously. If you aren't, please don't just make drive-by quips. Your comments are welcome, but your one line quips  about other topics are not.

    Where's Big Tent - he could translate this (2.00 / 1) (#60)
    by ding7777 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:49:20 PM EST
    joran van der Sloot (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by wsurfs on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:22:20 AM EST
    My feeling is the reason that he is "acting" so cool is because he has NO conscience, no regard or respect for human life (especially women).  This is a VERY dangerous person who has no boundaries.  EVIL!!  

    joran's hair (4.00 / 1) (#36)
    by pac on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 02:24:20 PM EST
    I found it odd that Joran would take time to dye his hair while traveling to the border. Although that notice is odd to me, I was surfing around earlier and saw a picture of a smiling Joran with a couple of cute girls taken at an earlier date with the same orange color on the ends of his hair. So, this isn't the first time Joran has dyed hair making the notice a little less telling somehow. So, he decides to get a new do before crossing the border. ? I don't know.

    Yes, it is significant the maid mentioned a back door.

    Joran's confession behavior regarding Natalee's disappearce has been odd, to say the least.

    About the lack of asking for his passport and flying to the Netherlands,,,,,,,,,,,, would it have been possible to pay the room for a few days, considering he said he planned to return, and ask for his passport without maid intervention. Was he allowed to make a quick trip while Stephany used the room. Or, do these people hold the passport completely hostage until check out? I don't really know.

    Where was Joran's actual residence at the time?

    What is known about the guy down the hall?

    So, instead of a straight forward one door no other suspect type situation this will be another complex matter? Surely Stephany's family wants to jail the real murderer.

    Also, a coincidence this murder took place on the 5th anniversary of Natalee's disappearance.

    More, what serial killer murders a girl in a hotel room under their name?  I just can't yet buy into the serial killer but so many unexpected surprises involving Joran... keeping up with him will leave people never saying never.

    Any word where Joran was staying while traveling to the border or where he might have dyed his hair. If he dyed his hair in the men's room of a service station that would be odd. At the same time, If Joran turned himself in then he had time to dye his hair dark again if the lighter color was used to conceal identity.

    My last thought for now is why do you suppose so much time has been spent trying to figure out what is up with Joran over the years, and then again and ?   just always in the wrong place at the wrong time and what are the odds of that?  He does appear to be in situations involving drug and gambling talk so more could happen in his circles but...

    Your site is informative, offering new insight and information. Hopefully the truth will prevail.


    "what serial killer" (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by diogenes on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:01:03 PM EST
    You mail diamonds in a plain envelope, not with an armored truck.  If someone tries to check into a hotel under an assumed name with a fake passport, it attracts lots of attention both before and after the event.  
    If he had registered under a fake name, everyone here would assume guilt.  Now many don't.

    Question: (1.00 / 1) (#39)
    by kasey9 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:19:28 PM EST
    If he killed the girl, he apparently had plenty of time to hide the body...would it make sense for him to leave her body laying in the room, wouldn't he try to hide her under the bed or closet..somewhere...?

    How far could he get without his passport?

    It didn't look like a baseball bat could fit into the back pack or the small carry bag he was carrying...what person travels from one country to a casino poker tournament and carries along a bat or even a tennis racket?

    Do we know what she was wearing...when found? Was there sexual contact...the media says no, but she slept in red panties and a polo..thats not what she wore in to the room?

    If Peruvian police & the girls father are verbally expressing in the media that jorans dna is there and there is evidence that he did it...and they specifically mention "under her finger nails"...why wouldn't they get that evidence prior to the burial...You don't bury a body with the suspects dna on her...

    It makes no sense...

    I have seen nothing but speculation & accusations...

    Because he was the last person with her...well realistically, the hotel employee was the last person...he supposidly found her dead...or was she still alive before he got to her and went in the back door...as he says...?

    There are more things in this case that simply do not add up...

    Is he being framed...?


    hiding bodies and passports (3.00 / 2) (#47)
    by diogenes on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 04:14:55 PM EST
    If the maid is cleaning up, hiding bodies doesn't do much good.
    It sure looks like he panicked, although he managed to get into Chile without his passport, apparently.  Maybe he carries a second one around; is he a dual national or something?

    I don't have a lot of faith in (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by hairspray on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 08:30:09 PM EST
    the detectives in that country.  They don't even have CSI

    The baseball bat (1.00 / 1) (#66)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 07:39:08 AM EST
    was found in the hotel room - it was not in his backpack.

    There was no baseball bat (1.00 / 1) (#70)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 12:33:02 PM EST
    Most of the early reporting on this is flat-out wrong.

    I've read there was a tennis racket, but I haven't seen that confirmed by any reliable source.


    CNN has it (1.00 / 1) (#71)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 12:48:33 PM EST
    for now.

    But it had to be something like that - to break someone's neck and do the trauma it did.


    Is a baseball bat an unusual thing (2.00 / 1) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 01:24:26 PM EST
    for a Dutch kid to bring on poker tournament trip to Peru?

    Nope (2.00 / 1) (#75)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 01:08:16 AM EST
    Not if you're a foot taller and built like a truck.  There's also no indication of trauma to the back of her neck in the ME's report.

    I am not sure how (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by JamesTX on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:17:24 PM EST
    it is referred to in the jargon of those who explain the errors which modern life encourage us to make in reasoning about the world, but there are many. Technology and language have short-circuited our mental machinery in many ways. For instance, our minds cause us to believe that things that we hear about more often are more probable and frequent than they actually are (such as when the media reports violent crime but not other common causes of death, or people vastly overestimate the number of insanity pleas actually entered because of rumors that "all the criminals plead insane and get off"). One of those errors we make is assuming that people are, in total and exclusively, whatever snapshot picture they were portrayed with at some specific time when they were subject to media attention. Actors call it being "type-cast". So, people tend to think Joran as being only what occurred in Aruba five years ago. In reasoning about people, the public in general fails to process and recognize the fact that people are complex and that those who have a short stint in the media limelight are largely something other than what is portrayed for the rest of their lives. They have lives that go on for years -- before and after the media event -- like everyone else, and their claim to fame is usually not as important in defining them as the public assumes. For instance, when Richard Starkey was asked what it was like to be a Beatle, he simply said that he had lived an entire and full life since being a Beatle, and that he really didn't remember that much about it. The point is that we really don't know people who have simply come to our attention through some distorted and brief media campaign.  Joran is more than the kid who was last seen with Natalee Holloway, although that is his total identity to the world -- as if he was born for that purpose and practiced all his life to become that one event. The tendency to generalize what we see in brief media frenzy to a person's entire life and identity is very powerful and very inaccurate. For Joran, he probably just thinks of himself as a relatively anonymous 22 year old like everyone else. But to the world, he is a bigger-than-life symbol of crime going unpunished, of sexism and abuse of women, and of white male privilege.

    What is largely being overlooked here is the extent to which it is completely absurd to think of Joran in terms of this being a "coincidence". Of all the things it may or may not be, it is most certainly not a "coincidence". Either Joran was framed based on his reputation making him extremely vulnerable for that, or he did the murder. I tend to believe the former. Most people believe the latter. Either way, it is not a "coincidence", and it is not reasonable to raise that as an alternative explanation.


    Why would he think of himself as (3.00 / 1) (#40)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:24:15 PM EST
    relatively anonymous given how often he has apparently talked to the media?

    Granted, perhaps (2.00 / 1) (#42)
    by JamesTX on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:48:58 PM EST
    not anonymous, but simply not the unidimensional character the world thinks of him as. He obviously sees the media stories as a source of income, and as having nothing to do with truth. He has learned that it is show business, that he is assumed guilty no matter what. So he doesn't think of anything in the media as being true about him, so he simply makes up stories for money. The point here is that he is more than the person who was last seen with Natalee Holloway, and there is a tendency for most of us to believe that he lives his life thinking of himself as simply the last person seen with Natalee Holloway. What if he went to Chile to see the geography? I understand it is a beautiful area. It is hard to think of these kinds of media constructions as being anything but their type-cast. There are infinite explanations for Joran's behavior, because he most certainly doesn't ask himself, before everything he decides to do, WWTLPSWNHD? (what would the last person seen with Natalee Holloway do?) He has a life, interests, and personality like everyone else, and he probably doesn't let media's construction of him govern his life. So everyone seems to speculate about why he does what he does based on thinking only of him as the media picture of him. That is my point. The fact that he doesn't have this in the front of his mind is clear, because the last place he should have been, given his background and reputation, is in a South American country with a strange woman in a hotel room!

    Chile is a beautiful country, although (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 03:53:23 PM EST
    didn't he go there for a poker tournament?  

    Oh, come on now... (3.00 / 1) (#49)
    by JamesTX on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 04:26:40 PM EST
    when traveling, don't many people take advantage of proximities to make the most of it? The poker tournament is likely not the only reason for his trip, any more than the only reason for his life is to be "the last person seen with Natalee Holloway."

    I still say the key question here is why he went to Chile. Given the scenario so far, the true reason for that would solve the case.


    the poker tournament was in Lima (3.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 04:45:06 PM EST
    the one in Chile was scheduled for March, 2010 but got canceled.

    Ah right. I wouldn't say (1.00 / 1) (#55)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:10:08 PM EST
    Lima is so beautiful.  Maybe he was headed for the Inca Trail to Machu Pichu.

    Confused (3.00 / 1) (#8)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 10:43:13 AM EST
    Robbery with death is LIP, but homicide is 30yrs or less? So it's better to just kill someone vs rob them and accidentally kill them?

    Like felony murder ... (3.00 / 1) (#9)
    by robrecht on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 10:46:14 AM EST
    ... as it's always presented on TV.  I'm not a lawyer, but I watch actors play them on TV.

    Guess I should take back that unenlightened (3.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 11:04:36 AM EST
    comment above. Good time that reduces the sentence that much seems pretty generous. Wonder if LIP is really LIP there?

    Joran van der sloot to be moved (3.00 / 1) (#65)
    by KellyGA on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 11:02:50 PM EST
    They say Stephany was bruised and appeared to have fought back - maybe even DNA under her nails - Joran (from neck up) d/n appear to have any scratches.  Did the police take photos of his body once arrested?

    yes they did (1.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 02:37:45 AM EST
    and I don't think they found anything. You can see them examining him without his shirt in this video

    When did he have time for a makeover? (1.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 09:31:42 AM EST
    Sometime after the hotel video and before his arrest, it looks like he bleached/dyed and cut his hair.

    That hotel looked less than five-star so that might explain why even housekeeping didn't enter the room for so many days(something I've wondered about).

    The perp walk was disgraceful-that should not have happened. Highlights what an unenlightened legal system he now has to navigate.

    See the updates (1.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 11:37:46 AM EST
    He's being moved to a horrible maximum security prison. And the video of him being interrogated after arriving in Peru shows him cooperatively explaining his possessions to police. He sure doesn't act like someone who's trying to hide something. He's not even nervous.

    How could you not be nervous? (3.00 / 1) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 11:52:22 AM EST
    The Dutch (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 11:55:06 AM EST
    tend to be cool, fwiw.

    Good god. (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 11:59:37 AM EST
    Ever Been To Amsterdam, Rotterdam? (3.00 / 1) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 12:07:55 PM EST
    Yeah it is a generalization, but the Dutch peopleI have met, lots,  typically have a cool temperament.

    Experience? Antisocial personality (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 12:01:56 PM EST

    Multiple encounters (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by waldenpond on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 12:04:41 PM EST
    with police, several arrests and at least two detentions from his Halloway experience.  The guy has had an extreme amount of media exposure and he does not get flustered although he threw a glass of wine in the face of one interviewer after an interview was over.

    I think it's why some people are turned off by his personality, he smiles about his dificult circumstances.


    maybe he knew he had (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 12:09:06 PM EST
    nothing to be afraid about. Maybe he's innocent. It seems to be the one possibility no one is willing to consider.

    Are you serious? (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 12:40:29 PM EST
    Dude's arrested for murder in a veeery foreign country, and, even if he is innocent, he's not nervous?



    OK (1.00 / 1) (#24)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 01:23:57 PM EST
    Well, I guess you have him pegged for guilty. Hope you are not in the same situation, and innocent.

    sniping deleted (3.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 01:46:49 PM EST
    between commenters. It was the "nervous" part Sarcastic was responding to.

    I support it! (none / 0) (#32)
    by kasey9 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 02:01:35 PM EST
    Money (3.00 / 1) (#31)
    by kasey9 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 01:59:58 PM EST
    He didn't seem to have loads of money on him, either...do we know what he had...and if she won 5000 as media reports, she didn't seem to have a purse in the video..where was it?

    oops... I saw something (1.00 / 1) (#18)
    by JamesTX on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 12:08:13 PM EST
    in my first reading of all this text which struck me as important, although IANAL. The employee refers to entering the "back door". Is this something that was twisted in translation, or am I to take this to mean the door with the camera is not the only means of ingress and egress? That's ... uhm ... sort of significant to me.

    From the Hotel Guide (2.00 / 1) (#51)
    by ding7777 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 04:48:34 PM EST
    Hotel Tac Sac has:

    Other Info:    Exterior Room Entrance. Interior Room Entrance. Multi-lingual Staff. Non-Smoking Rooms. Smoking Rooms. Alternative Lifestyle Friendly. Self Parking.


    It's good to (3.00 / 1) (#58)
    by JamesTX on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:25:07 PM EST
    know they are "Alternative Lifestyle Friendly". I love it! Smoking or Non-Smoking to boot, and nobody wanting to get in your car for a tip.

    Obviously, there is an issue with entrances and the evidence it is being suggested we use to make inferences. I hope it is even possible to get the truth eventually.


    Adjoining Room Door? (1.00 / 1) (#21)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 12:10:53 PM EST
    Not an exit, usually locked.

    video seems off (1.00 / 1) (#33)
    by kasey9 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 02:02:18 PM EST
    The video seems off...?

    joran/peru (1.00 / 1) (#61)
    by maizey on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 05:59:44 PM EST
    Very concerned about media/public/peruvian brutal police and corrupt political power involved in this case. not saying joren is innocent but something doesn't add up. sad how media controls to such a large extent the publics thinking and judgemental views. joran deserves and needs good legal representation right away..the peruvians are known for their brutal and corrupt political system..i need more facts on this story. somethings wrong with this whole scenerio.

    Curious (none / 0) (#84)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:56:18 PM EST
    What is it that doesn't add up in your mind?  Just curious . . .

    If he happens to actually be a serial killer in training, well, they always repeat their crimes.  Seems that most of them even love the thrill of the chance they're taking.


    Perp Walk ?? (1.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 09:33:55 AM EST
    I saw it on CNN.  They walked him across a stage, then pulled him back to the middle and made him face the press, which was extensive.

    He was wearing a bullet-proof vest and was in handcuffs.  It wasn't a perp walk, it was a fricken prisoner show-off, like one would expect if they had caught Pablo alive.  He looked confused, but not scared.

    The whole show looked like a really bad movie with horrible actors.  Nothing seemed real about it.  

    Van der Sloot (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Untold Story on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 04:29:50 PM EST
    So many of these comments are fair and just.  No one wants to see someone framed.

    There have been (what seems to me to be) lies out of Lima regarding this incident and I find that very disheartening.

    Again, it seems to be mainly the father of this young victim, who doesn't seem to either remember what he is being told due to emotional strain, or is simply incapable of listening to anything other than his own thinking of what happened to his precious daughter.  All understandable under the circumstances.

    She did not have a pocketbook, jewelry, nothing seemingly of value entering Van der Sloot room.  So what would the robbery motive be?  

    The equivalent of $1,700 winnings of a couple of weeks before must have been long gone as anyone that plays in a casino knows, cash doesn't last very long.

    And, who, other than the father actually knows about the $1,000 given for a laptop in cash?  Strange that a fourth year business student would not have a computer - especially someone from a rich family.  Usually a credit card would be all that would be required to attain an additional or new laptop.

    The owner of the casino is a friend of the father's, and he is the one giving information as to winnings and timings of players or the timings of rail players?  That worries me as it may well be tainted.

    Would her father want anyone to know his daughter had a gambling problem - a South American father of a daughter - I think it would be a great problem for him as well as any question as to the virtue of a daughter.

    Hopefully, this time the Dutch will get involved and see to it that Van der Sloot gets a fair and honest trial with witnesses whose testimony can be verified.

    However, I find it strange that Van der Sloot did not take his passport.  Odd behavior for someone about to cross a border into another country.  Cannot imagine any other country he could have dual citizenship with other than being a Dutch national.  

    In addition, the minor act of coloring his hair enroute to a different country is rather suspicious behavior, in my opinion.  Usually hair color is done when one feels settled.

    The bed, according to the maid, was unmade - slept in, whatever.  She did not seem to be dressed, had red Polo panties and something white laying on her side.  This seems to be contrary to the earlier version of her being fully clothed.

    From her walk with Van der Sloot into the room, she did not appear to have her mind altered.  He was not forcing her into the room should be also noted.  She appeared to be willingly following him.

    Where are the photos of the camera from when Van der Sloot is supposed to have gone across the street for bread and two coffees?  Why is that exit from the room not shown?

    Also, have a problem with the back door - what is a back door to a hotel room?  Never heard of that before.  

    If it is an access door from another room, why not show the video of whomever it was that entered and after three days finally found the tv playing too loud?

    Perhaps it is lost in translation, but something is very wrong with this entire story.

    Not adding up (none / 0) (#90)
    by ExEx on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 01:09:24 PM EST
      I don't really find something "really wrong with this story" nearly as much as I find it a prime example of the media rushing to print information from unreliable sources before it can be confirmed.  Or printing information before it can be clarified.  When a maid mentions a "back door".  Did they clarify whether it was meant to mean a back door of his individual room or was she speaking of a back door to the hallway?  Did the investigators ever change their story and say it was a tennis racquet rather than a baseball bat, or was it just the reporters that got it wrong in the first place.  Confusing two different instruments that were both meant to strike a ball.  Was it due to a language translation problem?  Or was it just hearsay?  Some things may strike us as odd at first, such as a poker player having a tennis racquet with him.  But maybe not.  Possibly as a tennis player he just hoped to get in some tennis during the trip.  It's known that he and his dad were avid tennis players.  His dad dying on a tennis court.

    Nobody mentions (1.00 / 1) (#74)
    by darkmoon on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:14:51 PM EST
    the boyfriend,that lives in "El Surco" (a drug ridden neighborhood) According to neighbors there,she used to pick him up every weekend.
    Her car was found in that are"El Surco",far away from the TAC. I don't think it was Joran who drove her suv there.(I have been reading the peruvian newspapers too.)

    Answers (none / 0) (#77)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:05:27 PM EST
      I don't find it at all odd that she wasn't carrying her purse or money when she entered Jorans room.  If she had just won a large amount of money and Joran was planning on robbing her he could have easily told her "You better lock your purse and valuables in the trunk of your car".  That way she would not be seen entering the hotel with the purse.  And it would be there waiting for him in the car when he left.

      Also the fact that nobody checked the room was due to the fact that he left a "do not disturb" sign on the door.  Maids wouldn't enter.

      And as far as his demeanor of not looking scared or nervous when arrested?  Have you ever seen videos of serial killers?  They never look nervous like a normal person.  They always act as if they're being led to a walk in the park.  That's normal behavior for psychopathic killers and serial killers.

    Easy (none / 0) (#78)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:25:46 PM EST
    It's easily conceivable that Joran could kill her and not have a scratch on his body.  A powerful man like him could sucker-punch her easily when she wasn't expecting it.  She would go down instantly.  Possibly unconscious.  He could then beat her to death without her ever regaining consciousness or being able to react.  Any large man that knows what he's doing could easily kill a woman without getting a scratch.  If you've ever watched a boxing match and seen a boxer knock out an opponent you'll know what I mean.  The referee holds back the boxer standing, but without a referee, the boxer could easily go in and finish off the boxer lying on the canvass without getting a scratch.

    Defenders of Murderers (none / 0) (#79)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:47:58 PM EST
      What I've always found fascinating, Jeralyn, is the fact that there is always a small group of people who endear themsleves to killers and serial killers.  They will always find reasons to defend these people.  Even when it's clearly evident that they are guilty, they will find obscure reasons to doubt the guilt.  What's even more fascinating is that even when some of these people admit that they have killed, and even admitted that they enjoyed killing, these defenders still believe them to be good people.  Richard Ramirez has these defenders and many other serial killers also have these "groupies" if you will.  Almost always females who have a "motherly" attachment to these killers.  Even though Richard Ramirez "the night stalker" has killed many, his defenders say that he's really a wonderful person and the world just doesn't understand him.  The problem with that is that we actually do understand him.  It's they who have the distorted view of him. But you'll never convince them of that.  And it seems the Joran Van der Sloot, even before he has been convicted is already gaining his own group of admirers.

    You seem to be one of them Jeralyn.  Are you by any chance a nurse or former nurse?  Just curious.  Not to be saying anything bad about or infer anything about nurses, they're usually wonderful.  But I was referring to one nurse in particular. Or do you just see Joran in the same way that those admirers of Richard Ramirez and other serial killers see their them?

    Wow (1.00 / 1) (#80)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 05:12:05 PM EST
    And there have always been those quick to join a lynch mob.

    I will take those who reflexively presume innocence over those who reflexively look to hang, stone, or burn, the first person around that may be suspicious.  


    Oh, come on now- (none / 0) (#81)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:44:18 PM EST
    No, actually none of us want to see him lynched or stoned.  What we have always wanted is for him to be put on trial the same as others have.  Even though there was much more than reasonable suspicion in Aruba, he was never put on trial.  At least as long as his father was alive and well playing golf and tennis with all the highest level of the judicial system in Aruba.  Apparently Anita, his mother still enjoys her status with those people in Aruba.

    It's strange that you want to bring lynch mob or stoning into the conversation when you know as well as I do that an arrest and trial is what eveyone has always wanted.  That was always the complaint, nothing about lynching and stoning.  Get serious now and don't try to pepper the coversation with things that really weren't ever relevant, except maybe with the few far fringe fanatics on the extreme other side from your fantatics.


    You Are FOS (1.00 / 1) (#83)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:55:24 PM EST
    What I've always found fascinating, Jeralyn, is the fact that there is always a small group of people who endear themsleves to killers and serial killers.

    You have decided that vandershoot is a serial killer. Or was your comment, just a musing non-sequitur.


    Response (none / 0) (#85)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:11:25 PM EST
    The comment was made to address a certain type of individual that become infatuated with people who are accused of and have committed infamous murders.  Whether they are guilty or innocent really doesn't seem to matter to them.  
      But as far as your question of have I decided he is a serial killer?  No, I haven't.  But I really have no doubts that he killed both Natalee and and Miss Flors within a five year period.  I believe the odds of an innocent person being accused of murder actually comitting an eerily similar murder five years later is astronomically unlikely.  But the odds of a murderer committing a similar murder five years later is much more likely. That's only logical.  
      But my opinions or declarations have nothing to do with any judgement that will befall him.  So whether I accuse him or not really doesn't affect him.  Had I been in a position where my opinions would affect the outcome of his fate, I would carefully choose my words or say nothing.  But since this is a forum where people speak out and have their say, my opinion is that yes, he is a murderer twice over, and possibly a serial killer.  Had this same murder happened in Aruba rather than Peru, where he could have easily disposed of the body he probably wouldn't even have had to face justice in this killing either.  And that would have been another injustice.

    OK (none / 0) (#86)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:42:32 PM EST
    The comment was made to address a certain type of individual that become infatuated with people who are accused of and have committed infamous murders.  Whether they are guilty or innocent really doesn't seem to matter to them.  

    So the difference between them and you is that it matters to you whether they are guilty or innocent? And despite there the absence of charges, trial or decision, in this particular case it matters to you that he is guilty?

    Did I get that right?


    It matters that he is guilty (none / 0) (#87)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 09:40:23 PM EST
    It matters to me if someone is suspected of murder and doesn't face charges because of their family connections with the judicial community. Especially if I believe that because that person did not face justice it allowed them to be free to kill a young woman in Lima, Peru.

    Ex Ex (none / 0) (#88)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 09:47:41 PM EST
    I'm a criminal defense attorney, if you take a minute to read the "about" page for TalkLeft, you'll see that this is criminal defense site dedicated to preserving the rights of those accused of crime. Whether they "did it" or not.

    Our Rights (none / 0) (#89)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 10:51:08 PM EST
      I understand.  But it's too bad that preserving the rights of the guilty too often results in an injustice for the victim and victims loved ones.

    I firmly believe that the rights our founding fathers bestowed on us were meant to protect the innocent and assure that justice was served.  And I also firmly believe that they would be apalled that those rights are now routinely used to assist the guilty in escaping justice.


    Injustice (none / 0) (#82)
    by ExEx on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:52:03 PM EST
    You know this blog is supposed to be about liberal views of crime related, political and injustice.

    And last time I checked, a suspected murder not going to trial because he has a father with strong judicial connections is also considered an injustice . . . . . And even a lot of us liberals find that distasteful . . .