Joran Van Der Sloot Receives Mysterious Woman Vistor in Prison

El Comercio Peru reports that Joran van der Sloot has a mysterious visitor at Miguel Castro Castro prison:

He is visited by a foreign woman in the Castro Castro prison twice a week. According to prison authorities revealed maximum security to local media, the mysterious visitor takes canned food and groceries, allegedly on behalf of the Netherlands citizen mother, Anita van der Sloot.

According to the press , the swarthy-skinned woman has been seen visiting the confessed murderer of Stephany Flores during the last week. Police officers have come to examine in detail the food that leads to murder suspect.

This is an open thread for all topics related to Joran Van der Sloot.

< Gen. McChrystal to Retire From Army | GOP To Filibuster Thurgood Marshall >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    Re "swarthy-skinned woman." (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 09:35:02 AM EST
    "Swarthy" only applies to "skin."

    Hopefully (none / 0) (#6)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 10:08:10 AM EST
    she will be able to retain her identity - however, sadly, she will probably be thoroughly investigated and other lives ruined.

    Aren't there charities of sorts there?  Doesn't anyone help these prisoners?


    VDS lawyer (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 09:31:47 AM EST
    Strategy is to "paralyze the process"

    Altez told CNN  that van der Sloot will use every possible law available to him, and will even reach out to the Inter-American Court of Human Rights in Costa Rica once he has exhausted his options in Peru.


    Criminal law expert, Jose Balcazar, told the AP that van der Sloot can continue the appeal but "that will not hold up the case against him."

    According to the chief judge of Lima's Superior Court, Cesar Vega, Peruvian laws allow up to six months for murder trials, but legal expert Mario Amoretti said that in practice, cases like van der Sloot's can last 18 months, and that the defense is likely to drag the case out.

    Superior Court Judge Wilder Casique rejected the habeus corpus motion on behalf of van der Sloot, who is jailed pending trial on charges of first-degree murder and robbery in the May 30 death of Flores, whom van der Sloot met playing poker in a casino and whose body was found in his hotel room.

    Van der Sloot also remains the sole suspect in the unresolved 2005 disappearance of U.S. teen Natalee Holloway on the Caribbean island of Aruba.

    Casique noted in a statement that van der Sloot had, in addition to the lawyer, been afforded a Dutch-Spanish interpreter vetted by the Dutch Embassy.

    A Spanish-Dutch? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 12:07:23 PM EST
    That must make an interesting translation!

    Note the word 'the' lawyer rather than 'his' lawyer, which was the case.

    Robbery - am confused about what Joran is supposed to have taken?  


    I think they mean (none / 0) (#15)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 12:51:45 PM EST
    Someone who can speak both languages fluently - hence, that's why that person is a translator at the Dutch embassy.  This would be a person who would probably be involved with diplomatic missives and high level meetings, so they would have to (as the judge said) have been vetted by the embassy.  This just wasn't someone they pulled off the street to translate - this was someone who, as an embassy employee, had the job of seeing that a Dutch citizen's interests were protected.  This person would not make up stuff in the translation of Joran's confession, nor mis-translate what the police were saying to trick Joran. (Well, I guess it IS possible, but not even remotely likely).

    I don't see what the issue is between "the lawyer" and "his lawyer" - it was the lawyer sent over to represent him, ergo, it was "his" lawyer.


    Re: Robbery (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jjaks on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 05:26:46 PM EST
    The robbery refers to his taking her car,money, credit card(s) and bank card.

    Items supposed to have been taken (none / 0) (#27)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 06:02:07 PM EST
    they said early on credit cards and bank card was found in hotel room - don't know what the present story is;

    car - Joran left from the hotel in a cab.  The car was found in a slum area of Lima.  Stephany's boyfriend lives in that particular area and she would pick him up from there every weekend - another coincidence if Joran had taken the car - to have selected such a location.

    You said $500 from ATM - no other cash - so that would account for cash, it seems.

    Jewelry she had on in crime scene.  

    Haven't had time to look up the link, but will in a few hours when I get time.  Appreciate the link, thanks.


    Re: Items taken (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jjaks on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 06:36:38 PM EST
    In 6/6 confession, he said he took her money, credit/bank card and drove the 4x4 to a neighborhood he didn't know. He took a cab to the airport. I think it was this Peruvian cabbie he'd told of the murder.  
    I don't know if Stephany was bisexual   I have read accounts that she was gay. No mention of bf anywhere. Her ex-gf. Stephanie who is in Florida spoke about the late Stephany's love of gambling, her winnings and fear of something like that ever happening.
    The ATM $500 was to pay for the mens' assistance.  He never took any jewelry only her $$, cards & car. Once you read the full confession, you may come to the conclusion his rights were not violated nor was the confession coerced. If he were tricked then the PNP did nothing illegal or unethical. Cops the world over have been relying on trickery to get what they want from suspects. If they'd tricked him into believing he was to go to Aruba in exchange for telling them what happened and he talked when he was to shut up and speak to the judge, shame on him and not the police. As long as they don't put a fist to the suspect or deny him basic human needs  then trick or lie if they want.

    wrong again (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 06:28:48 PM EST
    He is not charged with robbery. He is charged with simple theft, hurto simple, I've cited the codes and the court's press release before. It's all laid out here.

    That's the problem with citing so-called experts and cable news reports you see on TV, you cherry-pick the comments you agree with and often times they are not factual. So please try not to bring inaccurate information here.

    There is no "first degree murder" in Peru. There's simple murder, murder by violent emotion and murder called Homicidio Calificado, which means with aggravated circumstances. His aggravated circumstances are listed as (1). For ferocity, for profit or pleasure and (3)With great cruelty or premeditation. No robbery mentioned.


    Wrong word choice (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jjaks on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 06:54:22 PM EST
    I'm just taking information from the 6/6 confession. I'm not cherry-picking what I most agree on or disagree on. Perhaps I should have put the word in quotation or say supposed. But from now I shall say he took certain items. I shall use the words he stated from his confession.  

    i was referring to (none / 0) (#33)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 07:55:16 PM EST
    jbindc, not you.

    Blame CNN (none / 0) (#87)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 06:02:17 AM EST
    Not my words.  And it's not "cherry picked" - I didn't want to re-post the whole article, but I linked to it so everyone can read for themselves.

    lst part of answer to Jjaks (none / 0) (#5)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 10:05:09 AM EST
    #94 of JVDS Habeas Petition Denied

    Par 1 (a) cause of death was severe blow to head.

          (b) blood would have colligated and dried
    by time hotel staff found body, unless?

    {Pressured this morning and will get back later}

    Jjaka - last of comments (none / 0) (#13)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 12:44:48 PM EST
    Par 3 and 4  Confession and attorney -

    From what I understand - the first attorney who tried to get in contact with Joran was his Dutch attorney Bert der Rooiz.  His emails went unread as Joran's computer was in the custody of the Chilean police.

    The next attorneys appointed for him in Peru were Rosa Camargo and Carla Odria.  When, apparently, Odria left for the day since Joran was exhausted from the long travel comfortable with the fact that he knew his rights and did not intend to say anything that night and not until it would be picked up again the following day with her present.

    However, it would seem, all that changed an hour or so later when the investigators continued interrogation and brought in an attorney-girlfriend, unrelated to the case, Luiz Romero Chimchay.  

    She was the attorney present during the bucket of water confession.  The translator was Maurice Steins, appointed by the Dutch Embassy.  Obviously a translator is not there to advise someone of their legal rights.

    So I tend to be of the opinion the confession was coerced.

    Lastly - the earlier case you refer to in Aruba.  It should have nothing to do with this case since no evidence has ever been produced albeit three countries investigating the tiny island of Aruba!

    Unfortunately, the oversaturation of media has exhausted my patience and drained me of compassion to the point of nausea regarding the case - just my personal feelings, thoughts and opinions.  


    "Bucket of water confession"??? (none / 0) (#16)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 12:53:18 PM EST
    Peru may not be able to (none / 0) (#17)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 01:10:56 PM EST
    afford top of the line waterboarding equipment, would be my thought!

    Tricked (none / 0) (#18)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 01:12:49 PM EST
    His initial words were that he had been tricked.  He was tired and the paperwork was in Spanish. His family used a stronger word 'coerced'  There was info that VDS told a reporter that there was a bucket (I also heard the word bowl) in the room and that he was threatened with having his head dunked in the bucket?  I haven't been able to find anything on a search.  

    The circumstances seem to growing more threatening over time.  I did not see a mention of a bucket of water in his habeas paperwork.

    Easily verifiable by the translator whether there was water in the room.  Also, isn't the whole thing on tape?  Once that is released, it might show if there is a bucket or bowl.


    The bowl (none / 0) (#21)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 01:46:38 PM EST
    I think was used when 'bucket' caught attention, so a bowl was subsituted.  One might think it as an endearing step to keep Joran awake since he was very tired from such a long trip and intense interrogation!

    Don't know if the interrogation process was actually taped - seems they refer only to the confession (?)

    And, if it were a bowl and not a bucket, his own attorney might have been a better choice.

    But we can always hope for some fairness!


    yes, he told the dutch newspaer that (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 06:18:00 PM EST
    they had a big bowl of water there and said they would dunk him if he didn't talk.

    As to the translator, I don't think he was sent by the Dutch embassy. He may have been on an approved list. And he might not have been, he might be someone the police use who is not certified, just purported fluent in both languages.


    Helo Untold (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jjaks on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 06:00:32 PM EST
    I left u some posts on the other board.
    Wasn't the cause of death aphxiation? I haven't read of Carla  Odria or Rosa Camargo. I've only read of one male atty then the second female atty and now Max. Hmmm....atty-gf....still not sure if it would make a difference. He did accept her presence and agreed to her representation.  I'll have to think about this one and get back to you.
    Bowl of water... Do you know whether the 6/5 and 6/6 depositions conducted w/Maurice Stein there? Stein was there to make sure he was treated fairly so I doubt the PNP would do any kind of intimidation w/a Dutch embassy consulate observing and reporting back to the embassy. This bowl of water came up w/de Telegraaf and Alto has not mentioned anything about it or a coerced confession. Perhaps Peter is crying wolf? Both he and jvds are arguing rights violation and unlawful detention nothing about coerced confession. The boy has said he was tricked.  
    Not sure how confession can be coerced. He was tired on 6/4 & 6/5. 6/6 he was fully deposed. The 6/5 invocation if rights are mentioned in 6/5 confession.
    The Aruban case has nothing to do w/what happened in Peru. My guess is that it's being brought up so much to show intent, motive, modus operandi, etc

    Yes, thanks so much (none / 0) (#35)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 08:40:34 PM EST
    Cause of death is stated as cranial encephalic and cervical traumation.

    I was wrong about the car - the hotel asked that he move the car, and he did, seems he drove until he thought he was out of the center of the city and then, from what I understand, took a cab to the airport.

    However, what did catch my eye was clothing of his left in her car -- wondering what that would be as he seemed dressed and well packed leaving the hotel.  Interesting.

    The police report includes the bank card and credit cards as well as, I believe, $300 from her purse as taken by Joran.

    He refers to the amount of 25K with him upon arriving in Peru - can't be another coincidence - retaliation/vindiction won over intelligence/common sense, sadly.

    Must read the confession again later in the week when I have more time.  It is difficult reading and should me an insight into what you all go through trying to make sense of my confused thoughts.

    Probably understand better how the shirt would be smeared and not splattered blood.  However, still have a question re her jeans with only one botch of blood - if she had them on - head wounds bleed excessively - her shoes certainly had blood stains.


    You're much welcome, Untold (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jjaks on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 10:39:59 PM EST
    If his clothing was left in the car, it could have been left deliberately or accidentally by him. He was driving in an unfamiliar area. Who knows what thoughts were running thru his head.  
    As for the $25k, he stated $10k came from Kelly. He didn't exactly say where the $15k came from. $15k was wired to his account in The Netherlands so not sure whether there was some transaction between Aruba's bank and that w/The Netherlands. But he did leave Aruba for South America  after receiving the money. But he could have won that $15k in Columbia.  
    There's no scientific pattern on how blood will flow once it leaves the body but science will show how it got to where it got from leaving the body. Depending on the size and shape of the drop on the jeans and its location, it could have been from contact from what was already present. Blood was everywhere according to his statement.
    As I posted before, the curious thing is why did he take her jeans and shoes off? They weren't planning on becoming intimate? So why remove them? Did he remove them so as to put her into bed to give the appearance that she was sleeping? It is said he told the front desk not to disturb her. Was he planning on disposing of her then stopped undressing her after he realized he might be stopped for his unpaid room bill? Or did he remove them to search for a hidden camera or mic? Interesting riddle. Perhaps it will be answered at trial.  
    Anyhoo, I  look forward to reading your comments and thoughts on the confession.

    yes, please keep this thread for Joran related (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 11:50:46 AM EST
    matters. thanks.

    speaking of which, (none / 0) (#19)
    by cpinva on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 01:20:56 PM EST
    (and if previously answered, i apologize for missing it), has young ms. holloway's remains been recovered, as a result of mr. van der sloot's *"confession" to the peruvian police?

    i thought i read that he had disclosed that to them.

    *i use quotation marks because, given the facts and circumstances (as detailed so far in the press) surrounding this event, i remain unconvinced it was not coerced.


    no he did not disclose (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 06:19:23 PM EST
    anything about her to Peruvian police. He told Peruvian police he'd be willing to tell Aruba authorities directly if they came to see him.

    thanks jeralyn (none / 0) (#34)
    by cpinva on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 07:58:43 PM EST
    this case does seem (none / 0) (#14)
    by cpinva on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 12:48:15 PM EST
    to get "curiouser and curiouser", as alice opined. perhaps, instead of peru, we should call this "Brazil".

    "sentence first, verdict later" (none / 0) (#20)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 01:40:47 PM EST
    Untold Story; "Aren't..... (none / 0) (#22)
    by railroaded on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 04:01:30 PM EST
    ....there charities of sorts there?  Doesn't anyone help these prisoners?" In short, no. Access (to prisoners and officials for that matter) is given by bribing the keepers of the institution.
    Here is a list of 'charities' and 'help' prisoners (and citizens) receive in Peru. The United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights has published no less than forty (40) reports on Peru. In brief, Peru is endemically corrupt and a violator of human rights. Here is a declassified U.S. National Security Archive document on human rights abuses and political violence in Peru.
    I worry for Joran under such conditions and in particular that he is being `buzzed' by the same media and media heads, i.e. Fox, CNN, Greta Van Susteren and Nancy Grace respectively, as he was `buzzed' in the Natalee Holloway case in Aruba.
    FOX NEWS WEDNESDAY November 19, 2008: BETH TWITTY:"Yes. And Greta, I was just wanting to say that, you know, like I said, it's been a long time, but it's never too late for justice. And I'd be good with a "Midnight Express" prison anywhere for Joran."
    Unbelievable statement by Beth Twitty. She got what she wanted and more. The cell in Castro Castro where Joran is incarcerated does not have a toilet bowl, the Turkish prison cells in the movie `Midnight Express' did have toilet bowls and that was in the early 1970's. Peru in 2010 is worse.

    Such a chilling statement! (none / 0) (#23)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 05:12:33 PM EST
    The comments made with regard to this young man, not yet convicted of any crime, makes one wonder about humans in general!  Perhaps that is why humans belong to a world and animals to a kingdom!

    The media has become the Falvian Amphitheatre of old where slaughtering was considered a sport.  Only now we have people like that Grace lady mastering the event.

    Over 2,000 US children go missing every day, yet in five years these facts have never been mentioned.  The resources invested in finding one person should have been directed toward causes benefiting the many, not the few.

    My opinions and thoughts only.


    Grace Lady NOT........... (none / 0) (#45)
    by railroaded on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 08:16:47 AM EST
    "like that Grace lady mastering the event."

    Lady? Really? Then read this and come back to me.


    Sorry, cannot read properly posts today, just (none / 0) (#54)
    by Untold Story on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 03:15:49 PM EST
    glancing at them as I must meet this month's dateline - like tomorrow!

    Hang in there :)


    could be? (none / 0) (#25)
    by pac on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 05:43:44 PM EST
    Joran looks big enough to need a few extra groceries. His mother would be sure to know without questioning her accuracy on that one? The lady carrying the groceries exercising actual rights rather than allowing those rights taken by adverse possession? and a possible price to pay? In Peru there being differences?

    For now, juggling, and with no way to keep up with as many details as in the past, is the cause of death a blow to the head or a smothering? Another question due to lack of enough read time, the system in Peru similar to Aruba and thinking back there is a requirement to talk to some extent when questioned? I will read more later.

    Oh, having watched some video but I need more time with what is available, some of the video interesting...

    As for fairness in Peru, possibly that Stephany's family affluent and understandable their feelings, the outcome based on decisions of other people, hopefully ethical people.

    Yes, hopefully, ethical people! (none / 0) (#36)
    by Untold Story on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 08:43:18 PM EST
    evalauate (none / 0) (#38)
    by pac on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 11:46:52 PM EST
    With no television news and due to lack of many details in written news reports I am probably behind on a lot but,

    With the system being similar to the one in Aruba and remember reading some about that but not remembering in enough detail, not informed as a result without more reading to waste people's time with too many questions.

    Though lacking a lot of detail pertaining to different subject matters, it is unclear to me what Joran' full, or overall, intent was when he claimed he was set up by Elton Garcia?Set up to what extent? Set up to be in Peru and how, if any, that was suppose to connect with Stephany's murder?

    Also, bits and pieces of stories which I don't know how to evaluate,such as telling official
    people in Chile about an abduction or incident of some kind involving men dressed as police officers yet failing to present that story to officials in Peru?

    Where Joran was held during the periodof time between the attorney who left for the day thinking there would be no interrogation and when he was actually interrogated? In other words, I don't know how to evaluate the possibility intimidated in some way leading to a coerced confession rather than at the time of a recorded questioning?

    Also, how to evaluate evidence without the confession that couldn't have some other possibility of explanation. For example, Joran's hair. It is possible that when Joran heard he was wanted, guilty or not, he could panic and dye his hair, or he could be afraid of someone or? such as whether he was asked to move Stephany's vehicle and when but more solid evidence? I see his shirt shown on written news sites but feel lacking a good understanding of the solid evidence and how to evaluate.

    Ferocity is difficult to evaluate due to the various reports, eyeball hanging out, blood everywhere but not mentioned by the maid, decomposed yet nose running blood, and so on

    I try to be open minded but,lacking in as much search for knowledge as other periods of time,
    uninformed in comparison to others so any documented evidence or mentions help a lot.

    The appearance of Joran leaving a room with bags and showing up later with dyed hair and more leads to obvious indications of behavior that would suggest he ran but to rule out any other possibility? Considering that there was actually an extortion sting creates more of a tendency to check for any other related or unrelated circumstances. I don't think Joran was set up by the FBI for murder. But, whether or not he could have been set up in some way as a result of the sting, or other reason, ? I don't know.

    The circumstances appear Joran guilty although the fact he was so easily willing to tell all? odd, in character, out of character, ? or how to evaluate that either.

    Hello pac.... (none / 0) (#50)
    by Jjaks on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:21:40 PM EST
    In order to evaluate eveything out there and come to an informed decision is to read joran's 6/6 confession report. He details everything that occurred in room 309, his flight from Peru, getting assistance from 3 Peruvians who were told about the killing from joran and his brief stay in Chile. Once you read it hopefully the cobwebs of confusion surrounding the information coming out of Peru will answer some of your questions. The information being published online is due to bad translations. I'm not Henry Fonda and this forum is not 12 Angry Men. I'm not here to change your mind but once you read his confession you'll be informed. Which ever way you choose to believe, you're entitled.
    The ferocity claim is in the manner of how Stephany was murdered. She was elbowed in the nose which caused her to lose semi-consciousness. That's a lot of pain that experienced blankness which made her unable to defend herself. Then she was strangled by hand for 1-2 mins that caused bruising on her neck but she was still alive and perhaps suffering in pain. Not sure if her neck was broken then but she was alive and breathing according to joran. Next he threw her on the floor and asphixiated her with the use of his shirt. All of that is the ferocity and cruelty.
    I'm not sure whether the autopsy report has been released yet. If it hasn't then it'll be introduced at trial. If it has then obviously radaronline has it first. They're just as bad as tmz who gets information straight from the horse's mouth before the rest of the world.
    As for the extortion, the suveillance, suspicion of being followed and Elton Garcia, I doubt very much it has anything to do with what occurred on May 30 in room 309. The defense could introduced it but it could be irrevelant to the
    murder. If the tapes (untampered and in it's entirety) show that no one else entered the room from 5/30-6/2 then the prosecution will probably win this along with the confession. I don't know whether Alto has seen the tapes or discovery is stil underway. But at the moment he hasn't proclaimed his client's innocence. Nor has Joran.

    news (none / 0) (#39)
    by pac on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 11:59:52 PM EST
    Response to Railroaded:

    Yes, the television news sites and a few complaints about the ethics but a lot can be learned there too, if sorted, which helps. The television energy is a little much in comparison to listening to PRM, for instance, but a little bit of it helps gain knowledge and too much of it might create a lack of balance. For now, for the well being of others in my environment, that type of coverage is inappropriate. Otherwise, I might actually be a little better informed in some respect. Hoping my limit to internet at this time isn't bothersome and I am appreciative of what I learn here.

    Reply button (none / 0) (#47)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:17:08 AM EST
    pac, there's a button at the bottom of each comment that says "Reply to this."  Hit that button when you want to reply to someone's comment.

    Yes I agree pac....... (none / 0) (#61)
    by railroaded on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 07:43:05 PM EST
    ...a lot can be learned there at `those news sites' as I learned the following:

    I learned, by watching the release of the `security' video of the Hotel Tac and playing the video over and over again, that what I was witnessing could very well be a recording by two (2) separate surveillance systems.

    The camera in the corridor, herein referred to as `CAM309' (due to its positioning outside room 309 where Joran was staying) has a yellow time stamp whereas the camera at reception desk has a white time stamp. The time stamp fonts are different and CAM309 is approx twelve (12) minutes ahead of receptions time stamp.

    This is strong evidence for two (2) separate recording systems and with wireless technology anyone parked outside or near the hotel would have recorded the transmission from CAM309, provided they planted it. The security video released by the police could be the confluence of CAM309 and Hotel Tac's security video system.
    The question now is; was CAM309 set-up and planted and if so who planned and executed it and how and by whom were the two (2) security recordings edited and merged.

    If indeed there were separate recording systems at Hotel Tac this would certainly change current perceptions of what is happening in Peru but `those news sites' have yet to entertain this and many other inconsistencies.

    This type of coverage may be inappropriate but it clearly shows how easily they shoot their own feet while the whole world watches.

    I too am much appreciative what I learn here.

    Thank you Jeralyn for this site and thank you to all contributors.


    hallway (none / 0) (#105)
    by pac on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:07:15 AM EST
    It is difficult from video for me to tell exactly how that hallway is set up, such as is there a left turn? and, if so, are there rooms to enter at that location? The best I could tell from the vidoe where Joran and Stephany entered, the elevator must be located somewhere close to his room rather than down the hall and to the left or somewhere?  Any idea a lot about the hallway?

    No idea about the hallway....... (none / 0) (#112)
    by railroaded on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 04:07:42 PM EST
    .... and at this point I have no interest in the hallway or the position of CAM309 as it evidently produced the desired result.

    I'm just stating my observation of the security video that there is strong evidence of two (2) different surveillance systems operating within the hotel which begs the question; who planted CAM309? And why?


    cameras and messages (none / 0) (#113)
    by pac on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 04:48:41 PM EST
    Well, who planted the security, if any other than the hotel, and why?

    If it were not for the fact Joran was in process of an alleged extortion process and under such scrutiny in other ways as a result, but considering the circumstances at the time, and the coincidence of the timing 5th anniversary, rather than ruling out any possibility of tampering with Joran in some kind of way I would rule in but how or, if any, that affected the situation?

    Who sent the claimed going to kill Joran message? If that and snooping is what brought about Joran's claim of the altercation with Stephany? Maybe the private investigator or someone snooping sent the message? The message could have been a blunder that led to a death? Or, will we ever know?


    loose ends (none / 0) (#40)
    by pac on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 02:35:22 AM EST
    Maybe behind again! but where did the money go or can the money Joran should or is reported to have had, alledged extortion, be accounted for? If reports are correct, Joran should have money regardless of alledged help from Elton Garcia? Joran wasn't spending the money on a glitzy hotel room and no reports, that I have heard but doesn't mean none, claiming he gambled to that extent?

    Also, I think? correct that Joran admitted in confession having taken some cards of Stephany. Any reports that Joran use the cards?

    Just to touch on the men dressed as police story and why would they have left Joran unharmed? and, in theory, couldn't think of anything other than he is a big guy and the one with a gun might hesitate to make the noise? But then what happens? Joran hangs around and changes clothes? or, had already or?

    Would Joran been able to take a flight without his passport? I think I read he left it at the front desk? Also, is it known who was attending the front desk? In the video I saw, if I remember correctly, Joran walked by without speaking to anyone yet it is reported that he said "not to disturb his girl" and also asked to more a car? Or, was there another exit or I missed something?

    Joran's mother said he "could" have killed Stephany. She also said he was "paranoid and thought he was being followed" yet didn't provide any specifics.

    Pac, the confession should answer ur questions (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jjaks on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:00:39 PM EST
    If there's any money it's probably in the hands of the PNP/prosecution as evidence. If no money was left, it was probably used in his flight from Peru and paying for assistance by the 3 men. I'm not sure whether he paid for his Chilean hotel but he did pay for flight assistance w/clothes and personal items in lieu of money that he didn't have. Again, read the confession. It's about 10 pages.
    I believe the stories jvds told told the Chilean police was a fable. He only told that to the Chilean police and not the PNP. Joran is a really big male. At 6'3 and over 200 lbs, no one will rob both he and a small girl and leave him w/his possessions and steal just from the girl. I wouldn't even approach them bc of the odds. Nor would robbers enter his room, hit Stephany in the exact area on her body that was unknown to the public, kill her and rob her while leaving a bigger stronger threat standing there unharmed. Joran had more valuables which the "killer thieves" left behind: his computer, bank card(s), jeans, 2 Ferrari watches one which he said was valued at $7000. Why would they leave those behind and steal 300-800 soles, a bank card and credit card(s)? That's chump change. All burglars do their crimes w/no one at home and they take the most valuabe stuff. Makes no sense not even to a 4yr old. This was just all typical. Lie when you're in a jam.  

    conclusion for now (none / 0) (#41)
    by pac on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 06:03:40 AM EST
    Finally a different search engine pulled up more news and I was able to read about the two Columbian girls who are Joran is considered suspect as well. I don't know if properly reported yet having noticed dismissed somewhere but, ? I have been running on physical empty for a few months so, yes, sorry for the dragging.

    My conclusion for now is, if understanding correctly, Joran is not claiming that he was coerced but rather tricked into signing a confession that if read the same as recorded verbally wouldn't matter? or does it? Maybe if it had been written in Chinese that would help him?

    Joran's confession states that he elbowed Stephany in the nose and then after noticing that she was faint? decides to choke her?  If so, I could understand better if she was yelling but she looks faint so he chokes her?  odd to me! He says he didn't know why?

    If Joran is not claiming that he gave a false confession, for the first time, but rather tricked  into thinking he would be transferred to the Netherlands then how can I question his confession?

    Joran's mother says he "could" have killed Stephany so if she thinks so then? I place a lot of emphasis there.

    If Joran didn't kill Stephany or there are circumstances unknown which contributed that deserve consideration then, hopefully, there are people who will be capable and do their job.

    Hopefully the truth regarding Natalee's disappearance will develop.

    More will turn up in the legal process, I suppose.

    Considering all of the above there is not much to focus further at this time. Possibly there will be more news of value at some point. For now, unless something more develops sooner rather than later, the headline filler news is not much interest to me but,

    sharing here has been quite an experience. I will check back during travel for updates.

    Will or when will Untold Story tell the story? That would be worth a read.

    Well...you know..... (none / 0) (#43)
    by railroaded on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 06:53:14 AM EST
    "Finally a different search engine pulled up more news and I was able to read about the two Columbian girls who are Joran is considered suspect as well. I don't know if properly reported yet having noticed dismissed somewhere but"

    Joran Van der Sloot was in - transit- in - Columbia. But go ahead and add more innuendo!


    he's not a suspect in any Colombian (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:25:51 PM EST
    missing persons cases. It's been confirmed many times he just changed planes in Colombia en route to the poker tournament in Lima.

    Let it go, if you have suspicions and rumors, please discuss them elsewhere. This is about the legal case of Joran and Stephany Flores.


    I did not state..... (none / 0) (#57)
    by railroaded on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 04:57:16 PM EST
    .. he was a suspect in Colombia, just quoting pac. I was merely pointing out that Joran was in transit in Columbia en-route to Peru.

    Yes my reply was to PAC (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 08:56:10 PM EST
    You can set your settings in your user profile so that comments are "threaded." That way you can see more easily whose comment is being replied to.

    Couple things (none / 0) (#46)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:14:41 AM EST
    Do not, DO NOT trust anything Nancy Grace says.  She's been banging on the Colombian girls for a couple weeks, despite the fact that her own producer utterly debunked that idea on her own show early on.  Two girls disappeared in Colombia on apparently the same day Joran changed planes in Bogota, but there wasn't time between the two flights to even leave the airport.  End of story.

    The same goes for the "eyeball hanging out."  She keeps repeating that, from something Stephany's brother said early on, but I've not seen anything in the actual police reports that says anything like that.  I may have missed something, but I don't even see how that could have happpened in this situation.

    Also, about Joran's various stories-- from his behavior in the Natalee Holloway case, where he told numerous completely different conflicting versions of what happened, I don't think you can trust anything he says.  Whether he's guilty of either crime or totally innocent of both, his way of dealing with the accusations seems to be to tell stories.  One of them, all of them or none of them may have some truth in them.

    Lastly, "blood everywhere" seems to be an exagerration.  It doesn't mean the room was drenched in blood, just that there were spots and splashes found here and there.  Yes, the nose bleeds a lot, but as soon as the heart stops, the blood stops pumping.  So she would have bled quite a bit for a few seconds or minutes only before she died.


    "With miles and miles to (none / 0) (#55)
    by Untold Story on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 03:30:21 PM EST
    go before . . .. "  -I can write!

    There will be more news on this case - what I love about America is that it seems to always go for the underdog, and with the catty, vicious news night after night, based merely on sensation, the public will soon do a turn-around of their own and start asking some hard questions - which have never been asked for five years and which certainly are not being asked now by these so-called 'investigator reporters' in Peru.  Of course, their lives could be threatened as well if they did turn out articles depicting Peru other than 'fair and balance'.



    Hey.... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Jjaks on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 06:19:47 PM EST
    You totally lost me on this one, Untold.
    I'm not sure what other hard questions can be asked by investigator reporters concerning 5yrs ago. All hard questions that were asked were not truthfully or fully answered. The only questions now being raised are those concerning the murder of Stephany Flores Rameriez for which Joran van der Sloot confessed.  

    Sorry - will try again (none / 0) (#60)
    by Untold Story on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 07:24:51 PM EST
    Find the reporters in Peru are not seeking out people like Elton Gracia, casino personnel, people at the poker tournament (grant it, lots have returned to their homes by now) - but getting rather the same pieces of information, only with different toppings.  

    I would like to see the story of the whole - everyone that had contact during May with Joran or Stephany.  Did Stephany have a boyfriend, who are her friends, and why aren't they interviewed, i.e., the one she phoned that she was walking up steps to her home (which wasn't true), then why did she feel she had to lie?

    They say lies come from fear - then who was she afraid of - her father, perhaps, because he didn't want her gambling and that had been what the fight Friday was about?

    There seem to be so many people left to the side, without an interview to cast more light on what was going on.

    It was the same in the Aruba case, the classmates had a gag order imposed by Twitty, the supposed chaprones weren't chaprones at all when finally allowed to try clear their names from being totally reckless with these young people's lives.
    Limited information was allowed - Twitty herself changed her story in various aspects many times, yet was excused, i.e., tapes from Holiday Inn for one that shown what did go on prior to that terrible night.

    In my opinion, these reporters are being lead and not doing the reporting they are should be doing, because, perhaps, it wouldn't sell?  For instance, the prison itself - now really, flowers and plants and gardens!  

    Oh, the other part that I have questions about - although it seems a small part of the crime and crime scene - however, I find it is always those little things that just don't seem to make sense that continually crop up and are never answered.  Not being answered casts doubt on the authenicity of the confession itself in this case.

    The removal of the clothes, particularly the pants and shoes.  See you point about placing her in the bed to make it look as tho someone was just sleeping. The bedsheet was used to mop up blood, apparently.  So there would be nothing to cover her on the bed.  The early version of the crime scene had it that a white article of clothing was placed on her side.  I think it was later, out of respect, that they covered her with the bedsheet.

    Then, I can't get the logistics of this left hand slap and the right arm elbow - what position were they in?  Certainly not both sharing a computer as it doesn't make sense?  

    I thought she might have been left handed in the casino video as she handed her money from her left hand and a few other things.  

    Perhaps if she had her right arm around him, and he had the computer on his lap, and she hit him with her left hand, then he could have countered with his right elbow?  

    But, nothing happened to the computer?  Won't it have fallen to the floor immediately?

    There is something about the confession that seems to be 'adjusted' - where are those little exaggerations and mistruths so often expressed to be such a natural part of his speech pattern?


    Hmmm.... (none / 0) (#63)
    by Jjaks on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 12:21:51 AM EST
    Again, ur confusing me. You're either looking for a needle in a haystack or a needle that isn't in a haystack.
    The reporters aren't going to be looking at any other suspect or asking any hard questions bc joran van der sloot confessed to killing Stephany accurately and in detail. He knew things the public didn't. Things that matched the evidence and forensics.
    The prosecution will be probably be bringing Garcia and other hotel/casino employees and guests as witnesses who saw Stephany and jvds together and/or on their way to his room. As they were deposed, they'll be back as witnesses. Mr. Flores was supposed to be interview by the judge today. That may or may not be released.  
    Stephany wasn't found murdered and dumped somewhere by an unknown person nor did she kill herself where background investigation would be conducted of her last known movements, etc. She was murdered in Hotel Tac in room 309. Jvds room and he confessed to the murder. So the PNP isn't looking for another suspect or other suspects.  
    The questions ur asking won't be asked or answered until trial so it's too early.
    By all accounts that I know of, Stephany was a lesbian. I haven't read that she was bisexual or straight. So I'm unsure of this boyfriend or where it had been mentioned.
    As for the removal of the clothes or why he didn't put her on the bed for the appearance of sleep only he can answer those questions. Either he will answer them and more at trial or he will answer them in an interview. It is said he wants to be paid $1 million dollars to be interviewed. Perhaps whoever pays for the interview will finally get all their questions answered about Stephany and NH or they will find themselves Beth Twittyed if they hand over the money first and get the information second.
    I doubt the hotel staff or the PNP would tamper with evidence out of respect for the deceased or her family. Regardless of how influencial that family may be.
     The murder was not captured on video. Only his movements and/or the girl w/him, entering his room and not exiting the room alive.
    You may be searching too deep into this and the video. Left hand slap or right hand elbow? Where were they positioned on the bed? Did the computer fall? Why didn't it break? But as I stated before, those hard compelling questions that everyone has will be asked at trial by both sides.  So those questions and similar ones  aren't going to asked by any journalist covering this trial. The suspect has been found. The suspect has confessed. And that person is Joran van der Sloot.

    'Twittyed' - you are probably coining a new phrase (none / 0) (#67)
    by Untold Story on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:49:25 AM EST
    Thank you.  

    Agree with Pac - you give great answers and are very patient in explaining why you have come to the conclusions as you see them, and, many times you do it over and over again without a 'tone'.  Greatly appreciated.

    Find the circumstances surrounding the confession rather suspicious - and, probably, will always wonder how it was actually obtained.

    So many have been and are wrongly accused, such as the latest article by Jeralyn re Tim Masters.
    Personally, would rather see the guilty go free than the innocent being wrongly convicted.  

    Looking forward to your opinions on the possible 'entrapment' article recently written by Jeralyn.


    Hello Untold... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Jjaks on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 02:45:37 PM EST
    Yes, instead of being hoodwinked one can be Beth Twittyed.
    Thanks for not reading too much into my posts. Some would have found "a tone or an attitude" where none was meant. I like to have debates on all levels and I try not to impose my opinions on others. I want ppl to see both sides of the issue and come to their own conclusions which don't necessarily have to agree w/mine. If I happen to point them in the right direction then two thumbs up for me! :^)
    As I've said previously, I'm not Henry Fonda and this forum is not 12 Angry Men. I'm not on this board to convince anyone of jvds' guilt or innocence. I came to discuss the topic with shared opinions respectfully that may or may not agree with mine and to seek information that may not be elsewhere.
    Like I said b4 Untold, ur posts r an interesting puzzle within a puzzle. It's almost like being inside The Matrix.
    Yes, ppl r wrongly accused. It happens thru false/coerced confessions, planted DNA, police too eager to focus on one person and no others or faulty witnesses....and the list goes on. But it is good that DNA and the Innocence Project do help in exonerating the innocent but unfortunately it isn't until years spent in prison....yrs that can never be restored or given back no matter much money is given to recompense the innocent.
    I don't know anything about the Masters case so I can't really comment on it. As for entrapment......well.....I may save that for another time. :^)  
    So b4 I get my wrist slapped for going off topic, back to our topic. There probably is nothing really suspicious about how the confession was obtained. I have a feeling that when jvds is confronted w/strong male personalities he tells the truth but obviously later recants when that stronger personality doesn't surround him. The PNP probably videoed that as well. But since the Dutch consulate was there, the confession was easy to obtain bc jvds was eager to talk against advice not to do so. But so far he hasn't recanted his confession which is odd.
    I'm also surprised he didn't use something else in his confession as not to serve a prison term. It could help him. And I stress the word could since it's a long shot. Perhaps he and his atty discussed it and decided against it. Or it hasn't occurred to him. Hmmm.....interesting. I'll wait and reserve my opinion until he puts forward his plea.

    Confusing, but always curious (none / 0) (#77)
    by Untold Story on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 03:38:33 PM EST
    What is the 'something else' that could help him avoid a prison term?

    Being sociopathic might do it in Peru - but what else, crime of passion would give him three to six years - now I am going to be haunted by the 'something else'!

    As the Queen said (Alice) 'the sentence, then the verdict' - and it seems that is how it goes with this case in Aruba - only it is the father that stated the sentence the first day - satisfied with life imprisonment.


    Hello Untold... (none / 0) (#79)
    by Jjaks on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:39:49 PM EST
    I'll wait until jvds puts his plea forward b4 I comment. Once he has, then I'll tell u what I think and the reason(s) behind it. I thought he was supposed to go to ct on 6/28 for the plea hearing. I was wrong. I'm hoping it doesn't take too long until he pleas or for the judge to complete his investigation. Perhaps in Peru the hearing is after the judge completes his investigation?

    Love your interpretations (none / 0) (#80)
    by AlohaMade on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 10:02:32 PM EST
    I am with you, it's not that we are actually trying to find him innocent or guilty, he has confessed, and even his lawyer said, that they are not trying to say Joran didn't kill Stephany, but that we/they are trying to prove if he was treated fairly/ethicly. I apreciate reading your posts, but I don't think anyone hear really likes mine. I am new at this site, and I really enjoy comming here. I don't get to watch what is on t.v., I do all my research on line,and I applaud Jeralyn, for the excellent information, and links, but I feel that my theories and questions go unoticed, or maybe because my theories always have Joran as the suspect, but I want you all to know that I feel Joran does has a right to a fair trial, but I also feel that he needs to stop talking to the press, stop trying to capitolize like he did in Aruba. And listen to what his lawyers are saying to him, because the more stories he tells, IMO it gets harder for Justice to treat him fairly. If it is true, that he is trying to get 1 million for the release of (truth) information leading to Natalee and Stephany's death, well what is the difference of the way he was "suspected" of extortion. He's doing the same thing capitalizing on untrue stories, why doesn't he just say I don't know?
    Mahalo Nui Loa!
    all posts are IMO opinion

    Aloha (none / 0) (#83)
    by Untold Story on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 03:46:05 AM EST
    I always enjoy yours posts and have been missing them of late - was going to mention to Pac that we hadn't heard from you yesterday.  Pac also seems somewhat down today in his writings.  

    We all have different opinions and that keeps it from becoming boring.

    Yes, I agree, enjoy Jjaks wealth of knowledge and how he calmly and intelligently puts forth his opinion and listens to others.

    Unfortunately, imo, since Joran was seventeen he has been a victim of the press and has been conditioned to earn money by answering their questions.

    Don't know for sure, but would imagine, the media sources have put the offer out there and are willing to pay (which BT was also) for any and all information.  The media is not interested in truth, just sensation.  Jordan has learned that and, imo, that is the reason he enhances his stories.  It is more than possible he knows nothing at all and is just creating stories to sell to the guillible media sources.

    I am far from being any expert here, but my feeling is Jeralyn wants this as a defense site since the majority of sites are devoted to mass hysteria regarding suspects.  For me it is refreshing to find this kind of dialogue as so often, imo, there is a railroading of individuals into becoming suspects, and, sadly, more often than we wish to know, thereafter, even a conviction based on media reporting of the case unfairly.

    I much prefer online research, and a good book is always a great alternative!



    Thank you for your motivation (none / 0) (#85)
    by AlohaMade on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 05:29:15 AM EST
    I wasn't able to get online for a few days, due to illness, but I try to get caught up, when I do. I really enjoy reading your posts as well. No, I love Jeralyn as well, and I am also addicted to her website too ; ). And I respect her, as being on the side of the defence, it is a difficult job! And this is why I stated, that in order for Joran to be treated Justly, and Fairly, then his current attorney/ attorney's need to make him realize, that he needs to clam up more, and only speak, when it pertain's to his best interist. He needs to wait on the whole Aruba thing for awhile, and deal with what is at hand. I do agree with you that the media has engaged him, in this cat and mouse game of "treats" for "truths" it's as if "he" believes he is being rewarded for this behavior. IMO he is going to lose more council, by not listning to the people whom are honestly trying to "help" him. Jeralyn has stated that she is friends with Joe Tacopina Esq. I wonder if "off the record," she knows if this is one of the reasons his services are no longer retained? To be a deffence lawyer is not easy, and what makes it harder, is a client who will not listen to your advise. But look, even his own mother went to the media, suspectedly, to make money to afford him council, and supplies needed in prison. I guess what I am saying is that his motives, by talking to select media entities, is somewhat counteracting what Maximo Altez is trying to do.

    IMO I am not seeing all of the reporting, as unfair, because they offered him money, for a story, and that is what he gave them...a story. I agree some of the media reports have taken things too far, but if Joran would stop wetting apeitite maybe we can focus on the case at hand. After all, if I was being falsley accused of something, I would not continuosly implicate myself, I wouldn't want people to assume I was guilty, I would be yelling from the highest mountian, "I'm innocent!" Allthough Joran has said that he was tricked, and coersed, why does he report that to the Dutch newspaper, before giving his lawyer the opportunity to deffend his rights first? I know I am rambling now. But thank you so much for listening.
    Mahalo Nui Loa!
    all posts are IMO/IOW


    Long Black Veil - Johnny Cash..................... (none / 0) (#44)
    by railroaded on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 07:02:43 AM EST
    At the 02:14 minute mark the following is sung;

    "now she walks these hills
    in a long black veil
    she visits my grave
    when the night winds wail...."

    Jeralyn, are you insinuating something?

    Joran, dead man walking?

    missing (none / 0) (#48)
    by pac on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:39:47 AM EST
    Oh, don't know but came back once again to ask or say that it is odd to me that Joran needed to take off his shirt to suffocate Stephany? It takes a little time to take off your shirt? Why not a bed pillow or a sheet or something easier to grab that taking the time to take off your shirt?  Or, am I missing something again that everyone has figured out?

    But, just had a need to finish processing all of this having enough to worry in my own world.

    pac (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jjaks on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:07:58 PM EST
    No one will know why he used his shirt until he either testifes to the why or whether he answers that question in an interview.

    Hey pac (none / 0) (#81)
    by AlohaMade on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 10:18:48 PM EST
    Glad to see you are still here! I have a response. In one of Joran's exlanation's (IOW) not sure where I read it. After killing Stephany, after using his shirt, he actually put it on her (dressed her w/it) he was planning on putting some of the crime scene evidence into a suitcase, to dispose of it all in the ocean. He realized he didn't know where to purchase a suitcase, and feard that if the front desk saw him leave with a large suitcase, they might suspect him of leaving the hotel without properly checking out. As far as why he used his shirt to suffocate, I think what you want to know is if he had his shirt on during the attack, or already took it off? Not sure, but I do believe he used it on her at some  point, because there was a lot of blood on the back, rather than the front. Forensically IMO, where most of the blood is located, would seem the shirt was removed at some point during the attack, and used either on an area of Stephany where there was a lot of blood i.e. face, nose, head, or possibly used to clean up some of the blood.
    Mahalo Nui Loa!
    all posts are IMO/IOW

    nobody knows (none / 0) (#49)
    by pac on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:46:41 AM EST
    Nobody knows

    respond to jjak (none / 0) (#64)
    by pac on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 07:51:02 AM EST
    Thank you, I like the way you explain.

    Aww shucks, pac (none / 0) (#75)
    by Jjaks on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 02:55:53 PM EST


    message? (none / 0) (#65)
    by pac on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:21:53 AM EST
    Has anyone heard if the claim in Joran's confession that a message popped up with a threat to kill him, mongoloid? That would help verify what he claims was the beginning of an altercation? he made along with a claim about Stephany snooping in his computer,

    Also, how to interpret internet messages sent to  people threatening to kill them? How seriously is something like that considered? checking the source? no doubt this time and will the source be reported?

    re: IM message (none / 0) (#82)
    by AlohaMade on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 10:30:50 PM EST
     He said that in his confession, but whether it happend, well have to wait for the investigators, on that. But you are right I would think there is some way to see from what computer generated that message, it will be in the hard drive, even if he deleted it. But IMO, I still wouldn't think that would matter really, as far as, what happend in that room, I mean people all over the world know who Joran is, because he has made it a proffesion, of giving iterviews, for money. And if the computer was on, or open during this attack, wouldn't it have some kind of damage, or DNA on it. Speaking of this whole DNA under her fingernail, didn't the autopsy report, that Stephany had scratches on her chin? They never said Joran had scrathces right?
    Mahalo Nui Loa!
    all post are IMO/IOW

    more abt. message (none / 0) (#66)
    by pac on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:25:15 AM EST
    Oh, forgot to say that I ask about the threat message that was suppose to be the beginning of the altercation because I noticed on another site that Jossy Mansur supposedly stated that it was practically unbelievable that Stephany's death was on the 5th anniversary of Natalee's disappearance and possibly the same hour? Assuming from that the message would have popped up, if so, at that particular hour possibly?

    Seriously . . . (none / 0) (#68)
    by Untold Story on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:58:35 AM EST
    First of all we don't even know if NH is even dead least of all pretend to know the time!

    All we know, insofar as anyone knows officially, Joran was the last person known to be seen with NH.  We don't know if he was or was not the last person to see her.  Often wonder how that term becomes so official.  Whoever the killer is, if there was a murder, would be the last person to see the victim of murder and it is not necessarily the last person seen by others with the person.  Usually murder is not committed in front of an audience.

    Some of these people like Grace and this Mansur go way beyond the bounds of ethical reporting, imo. Grace is being sued and a trial is coming up next month re her out of bounds interrogation of Duckett.  

    Always enjoy your posts Pac - stay safe.


    response (none / 0) (#69)
    by pac on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 09:28:22 AM EST
    Thinking that you are just being sincere when you say stay safe on a comment site. The fact is commenting does worry me with not knowing who people are only because once a good while back the joking with pom and someone came past here in the middle of the night and shot four gunshots. It was the fact the lady said there were 4 of them and another person verified. Whether or not related, it was coincidence of timing. The lady across the street called the police. In other words, if there was a connection then some people really must get worked up about responses.

    Oh dear, I was referring to your travels only (none / 0) (#70)
    by Untold Story on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 10:17:24 AM EST
    sorry (none / 0) (#71)
    by pac on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 12:21:06 PM EST
    and Jeralyn sorry about the Columbian girls comment  

    No, I have not bought into the serial killing headlines thinking that would be unlikely having taken place in one's own hotel room. Just a mention due to the notice of other reporting.

    thanks (none / 0) (#72)
    by pac on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 12:21:55 PM EST
    Yes, thanks!

    Untold Story (none / 0) (#73)
    by pac on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 12:23:17 PM EST
    Untold Story thanks!

    I tried pressing so the response name would show but it didn't work this time.

    insight (none / 0) (#76)
    by pac on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 03:22:13 PM EST
    Unntold Story,

    Where will the entrapment article be, like click somewhere or a new thread?

    Response to your earlier:  The smaller aspects that are more important to me than some you mentioned in your earlier post are who sent the message threat that Joran claimed in his interview started the confrontation with Stephany?, just the fact that someone with Stephany's standing happened to run into Joran in Peru and end up at his hotel (another remarkable coincidence and how that came about?) how did they meet? they appeared to already know one another? and the Elton Garcia guy who supposedly identified the body mystery? and the many more and more surrounding Natalee's disappearance, and the fact that Jossy with such a notorious reputation appears to have an agenda from the beginning which is odd mainly due to the fact that he is coming across like a good church boy and that is not how his reputation appears during search! ....   so many small but important aspects...  Also, extortion and if there was an explanation for the need of money, such as to relocate due to implication knowing Joran's mother mentioned Joran's desire to do so... Trying to understand someone to call and demand moeny for info without having an explanation is difficult for me to understand. If there is more to the story that would mean an understanding is distorted, example. Many small details from beginning to end can alter how the bigger factors materialize?

    Do you think I am redundant? !!!!!!

    Mr. Flores looked about as sad as I have ever seen a person, Mrs. Twitty was "overwhelmed" , Mrs. Van Der Sloot "unable to fathom" (fully unable to believe) although Jossy felt it was "practically (almost?) unbelievable" and even thought possibly an hour time frame could be pinned down. I notice that semi or supposed professional news articles here often appear like slander, not all but some, but Jossy's style is shocking! such as "God forgive him" and so on.

    I have not read the 15 page confession but I need to find it. It is not that I don't believe the confession. My worry are the small details that sometimes explain the larger picture more accurately. But, you said that you have questions about the confession. Oh, and I haven't looked up cervical traumation? so admit not doing my homework. As mentioned before, some of this is a tired and juggle thing..

    Untold Story: Just give me some insight when I need it okay? Constructive criticism is fine.

    Pac (none / 0) (#78)
    by Untold Story on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 04:38:48 PM EST
    Jeralyn wrote a wonderful article on June 30 at 4:30 EST "Federal Grand Jury Indicts Joran Van der Sloot . . ."

    Very interesting and lots of comments.  Look it up.

    Also, the confession can be seen by going to a link provided by Jjaks - radaronline.com
    You will find the confession, crime scene photos, and lots of other stuff.  Must of it is the same as Jeralyn linked in her many articles.

    Responding -
    Underneath a posting you will see a bracketed
    Reply to this
    [Reply to this] 1 2 3  etc. for ratings

    It is the Reply to this you click - and you will get the message you are replying to appearing above your comment (in answer) to that post.

    You are much better than I am at all of this, but at times even the best need a hand extended.

    Enjoy your posts as do many others.  And, you do, as I do, and some others, think and write outloud more or less.

    Hang in there and enjoy this site - it is the best of the best - so many things to learn and so many subjects - kind of like Christmas morning opening presents!


    thank you , all three of you (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 04:44:30 AM EST
    I really enjoy having you here. Since not that many readers here comment on the crime posts, as compared to the political posts, it's nice to have some company, especially since I spend hours accumulating and assessing and then selecting source links to support my theories. Always feels good to know someone notices!

    Your Great Jeralyn (none / 0) (#86)
    by AlohaMade on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 05:38:54 AM EST
    I just read on CNN "Rasperry." They are now implicated Joran in some missing teen girls out of Thailand, I am going to look a little bit more, as I am pushing 1am here in Honolulu, but please let me know, if you find anything? Probably just another rummor, like Colombia, but who knows? Love your site...God Speed!
    Mahalo Nui Loa!
    all post are IMO/IOW

    some (none / 0) (#88)
    by pac on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 04:26:52 PM EST
    What happened in Peru sounds like something unexpected or suddenly happened rather than a pattern or anything to do with missing people? Due to the fact that the room was registered in Joran's name and if he went to the trouble of buying coffee for the camera?, as some have suggested, then he didn't intend and tried to conceal... Is it safe to possibly rule out any idea of a planned point of Joran's to have Stephany die on the 5th anniversary of Natalee's death he would unlikely try to conceal the fact?

    I read the transcript where Greta attempted to get Mr. Flores reaction to circumstances involving Stephany's death. When asked about Mrs. Twitty's attempt Mr. Flores understood her position. When asked how he felt about Joran being returned to Aruba?, can't remember the exact wording so ? , he said he would prefer to leave that decision to the justice department? and when asked about the FBI he didn't appear to understand why they didn't have a case they could prevent travel before giving Joran the money? His mention of cameras and such, as they have in Peru almost as if he doesn't think of the FBI, or Arubu, due to earlier mention, as being as capable. The fact is, the circumstances are different than what happened in Peru but regardless, Mrs. Flores actually comes across as someone who tries to be fair but might have a limit to how far he can be pushed.

    It appears from reading that Mr. Flores family learned about Joran from a search on the internet. No doubt an internet search could possibly make Joran appear more guilty than he was in the Aruba casea?, such as a possible valid reason for not being charged rather than all out corruption.  Only time might tell what Joran was at age 17 and if or how he became what appears the current. In other words, whether Joran was a murderer, as indicated without proof by many, or if the situation itself ended in such a way as a result.

    more (none / 0) (#89)
    by pac on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 04:50:11 PM EST
    Someone walked in and my train of thought lost on the above but,

    having noticed something written regarding Steve Croes when asked if he planned to sue Beth Twitty his response read no yet Jossie supposedly said there was such an idea.. It is odd that Steve said no but Jossy said yes leading to a round a bout way of intimidation possibly? Did Jossy not point toward guilt involving Steve Croe but yet the others?

    Is it known the actual conversation between Mr. Kelly and Joran before the FBI involved, such as the initial contact call? Joran is 22 so? but if he has a clue about extortion and the fact he was not talking to the average Joe but rather a lawyer, the possibility would be on his mind?

    Pac (none / 0) (#92)
    by Untold Story on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 06:49:55 PM EST
    I don't listen to anything Jossie or Nancy Grace have to say.  They have their own agendas and the lines of ethics are somewhat blurry, I find.

    Jossie, imo, doesn't know anything.  He just wants fifteen minutes of fame - and it don't matter how he get it - seems to me.

    The Aruban people (according to speaking with people in their shops) seem to be quite fed up with Jossie.  Perhaps he is now trying to butter them up by pretending to know BH (a much hated person in Aruba - certainly not at first but it has come to that) is being sued by one of the locals.


    meeting (none / 0) (#90)
    by pac on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 04:59:27 PM EST
    Oh, and the reason I previously asked about how someone with Stephany's social status ends up in Joran's room is a questioning of another coincidence? The question is if they were introduced by someone or if the coicidence was a natural occurance?

    Hi Pac (none / 0) (#91)
    by Untold Story on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 06:38:31 PM EST
    Apparently they met at the casino and according to the video did play next to each other that evening (well from about 2:30 am until 5 am). I thought it was mentioned they first met on May 27.

    possibilities (none / 0) (#93)
    by pac on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 08:06:15 PM EST
    The video appeared that Stephany and Joran knew each other unless there was more communication at the table than what I saw before they left. i didn't draw a conclusion at first having noticed that Stephany first sat a distance and then moved in closer. Yet, the appearance of the exit was one that they were more aquainted than what suggested earlier in the video?  Something like that anyway.

    Mitigating circumstances are what sometimes give a complete understanding. Having to look up the word to make sure I had the proper understanding, but in this case, beginning to end, appears a significant aspect which could be lost in attempts to slant the situations in one way or another by the many involved.

    Just in theory and one possibility at least considering that Aruba did bring in an additional person, nameless, for questioning. If, by some chance, he disposed of a body then I would first assume that he had a self interest rather than putting himself out to cover a murder for Joran. If so, and, if, Natalee died accidentally, exactly what Joran's guilt amounted to and what Aruba was able to determine is something to examine before accusing them of all out corruption.

    If someone else disposed of the body and Natalee died accidentally Joran still has reponsibility for some of his actions, panic or not.. Or, if Joran had panic and someone helped him dispose of the body as well. Regardless, considering the possibility of this having been the case, Joran could have reason to be afraid to implicate someone. If so, then he might explain that problem if he had an intention of ever really telling the truth rather than the false confession stories.

    If the somebody that he was afraid to identify had any power of actual threat to consider?

    Or, do I have an imagination of a sort and need to explain other possibilities?

    check back (none / 0) (#94)
    by pac on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:39:43 AM EST
    Yes, tried on this site to read the confession but what I found was not in English. I think probably on the wrong thread so will try again asap.

    For now, I forgot to mention having seen a picture of Joran since arrested appearing different but not in such a way to suggest just traumatized?

    If the lady carrying food would be disliked or more, how to interpret if there would be intimidation involving an examiner as to the outcome of a psychological examination?

    Also, Stephany was reported as having remarked she was the happiest she had been yet the reason a mystery?

    Many articles suggest that Stephany was a lesbian. If so, Stephany probably didn't to the hotel with Joran for romantic purpose. If Stephany was a lesbian and also had a boyfriend, which has also been suggested, then maybe she went there with an interest in Joran. The only suggestion of a boyfriend is a mention of someone in the slum which sounds odd but who knows? The blood spot on Stephany's jeans might explain her clothes removed? more than anything else obvious at this time. Were her jeans at the scene? or missing? I need to look again. If the blood belonged to someone other than Stephany the jeans would be removed but missing? There is not a lot of reason to speculate unless Joran's version proves false? or is there any current questioning of his confession, no notice.

    The maid might have turned out the lights so that Stephany could rest in peace. The television at least? You would think that her thought without thinking would be danger so get moving? Possibly that indictes the maid sensed that danger had passed regardless she said Stephany's nose was bleeding. Even with that thought in mind her reaction a bit steady.

    Although the dutch doubtfully physically attack people for this reason, I have read that they have high regard for privacy, having read at one time that they dislike people who show up at their house unannounced and function from a type of agenda book routine. In other words, Joran may have been more inclined to be outraged by someone snooping than some of us would expect, yet not in such a manner alone that would typically lead to  violence.

    If the officals in Aruba were overly accused of wrongdoing that would likely alter any possibility of Mr. Flores input about returning Joran, if considered at all. If the Aruban officials weren't overly accused then why would Mr. Flores want them to have Joran? The best that I could determine without further scrutiny, Mr. Flores had the strongest reaction toward the FBI and Aruba although the media probably had much responsibility. Results of the media would have been more likely to have affected Joran if the situation with Stephany intensified due to past trauma and if trauma played a part in Joran's inability to face an exposed altercation at the initial point when Stephany was still alive? If Joran was aware of the FBI possibility, stress, or began to suspect or? maybe without money couldn't have financed the trip at the time, or unreported or unknown possibilities. Joran's handling by the police in Aruba was considered, or reported, in such a way that would not appear to have resulted in a lot of police trauma. He had no past history trauma with the FBI.

    Regardless of what took place previously, Mr. Flores has enough reason of his own. Why important? because Joran is in Peru and how much eventual interest on that end to be helpful with the other case is unclear.

    I will check back after reading the entire confession and other to see what is new and what others report.

    Untold Story: Give me something to think about soon.

    uh? don't know (none / 0) (#95)
    by pac on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:27:12 AM EST
    Uh, now remember seeing a picture of the jeans so? don't know why Joran said he removed them or was it that he said he didn't remember either?

    For now I will be distracted but will check in sometime soon.

    reported drugs (none / 0) (#96)
    by pac on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:44:22 AM EST
    Once there was an article which suggested date rape wrappers in Stephany's car but that reporting appeared to disappear, no tv here so?

    The next reporting I remember reading stated the drug found in Stephany's system was an amphetemine, sp?. No memory of mention of any other drugs in her system?

    For now, too much on plate!  Will check back sometime soon for updates.

    missing (none / 0) (#97)
    by pac on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:51:44 AM EST
    What is missing are the ladies, such as in Tiger Wood situation, who come out and told all? No ladies are popping out with stories about Joran regarding violence or other behavior except the ex who stated lying as a trait but no other unusual notice.

    Aloha pac (none / 0) (#102)
    by AlohaMade on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:23:30 PM EST
    FYI, there was on MSMBC.com, a really good article, with Chris Hansen, I think on the Dateline section. I't was about In The Mind Of Joran van der Sloot, Takes the case, from Joran age 4, to currently in Peru. Shows his violent pattern actually started early. Along with John Q Kelly interview...Interesting!
    Mahalo Nui Loa!

    all posts IMO/IOW


    I have searched and searched....... (none / 0) (#111)
    by railroaded on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 02:46:32 PM EST
    ...and am unable to find a single link to "In The Mind Of Joran van der Sloot" article. Please supply a link. There's enough mudslinging going on.

    Railroaded (none / 0) (#115)
    by Untold Story on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 09:02:50 PM EST
    What I find unfair (among lots of things in this case) is the fact that the only 'honor' student was Joran!  He was active in sports as well as an honor student, and, yes, he was enrolled to attend an university in Florida even though he was only seventeen.

    yes Untold Story.... (none / 0) (#116)
    by railroaded on Mon Jul 05, 2010 at 07:28:31 PM EST
    ...and the media paid no attention to such trifle matters as their agenda of crucifying Joran from the outset took precedence. Unfair.

    Evidently, nothing has changed since Aruba and that's what concerns me as being unfair regarding Natalee, Stephany and Joran. The media in America and Peru qualify for a gold medal in synchronized gymnastics for their part in portraying Joran the way they have, as a convicted psychopathic serial killer in Aruba and Peru at the tender age of not yet seventeen and twenty two respectively. Joran gets the gold medal for being the youngest `psychopathic serial killer' of all time. Believe_it_or_not.

    Also being unfair is the lack of investigation of the donations to The Natalee Holloway Resource Centre (originally The Natalee Holloway Fund) and Beth and George `Jug' Twitty themselves. I cannot believe in my sane, logical and reasoning mind that that these people and their financial accounts were not investigated.

    Somebody correct me if I am wrong but the fact that Natalee went missing outside U.S. jurisdiction meant that the family was not legally open to interrogation or investigation of any kind? Hence the gag orders by Beth Twitty on Natalee's roommates on Aruba and all family members without recourse. In other words the entire family of Natalee Holloway was not legally obliged to supply any personal historical information including that of George `Jug' Twitty that could shed some light on the Holloway - Twitty clan, the living conditions, possible conflicts within the family, character relationships etc., that's preposterous!

    If that is the case then special leave should be granted under law for extenuating circumstances to permit a full and transparent investigation of the Holloway's, Twitty's, all of Natalee's friends, roommates and a full audit of the donations to the respective fund/s, immediately and without constraint to establish without doubt that there were no hidden problems within the family or sinister agenda's.

    Unfair is an understatement.


    I agree (none / 0) (#117)
    by Untold Story on Mon Jul 05, 2010 at 09:32:33 PM EST
    The media have been manipulated by power and privilege and none of that is out of Aruba!  

    At times I thought it was a new reality show with ABC and Fox getting full daily access to tape the evening's story.  Sad.

    Wish Jeralyn would do a thread on these trust funds for victims as I am not understanding the legalities, responsibilities, obligations involved as, imo, there doesn't seem to be checks and balances.  Just to a point that it seems like a racket and soon donations will dry up completely for everyone and anyone - (there is a saying, calling wolf too often??)

    The media as a whole also doesn't have checks and balances.  Wasn't it this Jossy guy that got the false tapes aired on the Dr. Phil Show?  Wonder where the money for all that taping came from?

    And, who paid for all the investigators that traveled the world in pursuit of Joran in attempts to so-call befriend him so as to get a story?  All these set-ups did cost money and that's the only part I can say with certainity.  They did not provide anything other than more edited tapes with talk-overs.  More of the same.

    Hang in there.  Your right, certainly is a very full closet that must be about ready to burst sooner rather than later.  


    faith (none / 0) (#118)
    by pac on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:07:23 AM EST
    Untold Story:

    If Mrs. Twitty has money to find out what happened to Natalee that is a good thing and seperate from the media.

    I don't know much about the money trail but my guess is there are always people keeping up with money!  

    My goal might appear odd but in my mind and, possibly due to just happened to have a lot of past details although fewer than many, the notice of many accusations, odd coincidences, and so ? tying to take a look and try to understand the actual reality in all respects.

    There are times it seems in situations amazing how either unconcerned or unconcerned with ethics that people can be when needed. Yet, just as hope is lost and maybe even with the need for a lot of search, worth the wait because there are some ethical people out there! So, I don't assume there are none in Peru, Aruba or here.


    more convincing (none / 0) (#98)
    by pac on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 06:49:45 AM EST
    One more thought to leave this for a while with other pressing matters but,

    by the time a guy is 22 years old he has more than likely been turned down for sex a number of times?  or he is especially the lucky type?

    Most often wouldn't rape or murder in own hotel room?

    No girls popping out all over television with stories about Joran considering the much publicity that he has received?

    While dealing with other maybe something will come to mind. Or, someone give me something to consider.

    Pac - just a few comments (none / 0) (#99)
    by Untold Story on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 08:20:20 AM EST
    So much of this story is a mystery - pieces are not fitting.

    Stephany did claim obviously social status as you state - but in Mexico and South America it is a very common arrangement to have bodyguards.  Labor jobs, and, imo, a bodyguard would be considered in this category, are very cheap and especially it is the norm.

    So, why is this young girl out and about all hours of the morning where kidnapping is rampant with no type of protection?  She is the only daughter, she lives at home and is only 21.

    Also why didn't the family contact the casino Saturday morning when they found she had not returned home?  They state they knew she was entering the poker tournament and are friends of the casino owner.

    Why did she lie to a girlfriend that she was walking up the steps to her house?  But, in reality, she was going back to the casino it would seem.

    Yes, agree, seemed somewhat awkard - she arrives they 'greet' as Jeralyn has pointed out and it is not a first meeting.  Stephany doesn't immediately sit beside him - but takes a seat one over - when he motions for her to sit in the seat next, she, without any hesitation, moves next to him.  There were other tables for her to sit at when she walked in, yet, she choose the one where Joran was sitting.  She is from Lima and it is said a gambler so she must know other people.  They obviously knew the guy sitting across in the green striped shirt.

    Then Sunday goes by without the family contacting the casino, but instead contacting the police as to a kidnapping???  Monday, the same thing.

    Then oddly, within an hour of each other, Gracia has the casino phone Joran at the hotel at about eleven or so at night (Tuesday, June lst) and about an hour or less later the family are calling the casino.  

    I find that extremely strange.  It is after midnight that the maid returns, finds the body, contacts her supervisor, and the supervisor calls her own husband (!!) and he (not associated at all with the hotel) phones the police.

    The police select Gracia as the person to identify the body.  He says he met her three times.  Yet, he identifies the body from a photo.  The family, according to Stephany's brother, are advised not to view the body.  The brother says she is unrecognizable.  So how did Gracia identify her from a death photo?  Why would the police feel comfortable in taking the word of someone who didn't know her, was visiting from another country, and only in town to attend the poker tournament?  

    Is this enough for you to think about today?  Look forward to your thoughts on all this Pac.

    weird (none / 0) (#100)
    by pac on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 09:20:33 AM EST
    Untold Story:  There is a lot weird!

    Give me until Monday or so and I will get back.

    Pac, one more thing (none / 0) (#101)
    by Untold Story on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 09:28:16 AM EST
    We know she was at the casino since the police have evidence of her car parked there - okay, then why, since her parents apparently knew she was playing in the upcoming poker tournament and since they phoned police as to her being kidnapped, would not the casino and its surrounding areas not be searched for her car?

    At the same time, we know her car (since Joran apparently was told he had to move the car) was parked in front of the hotel.  Then if someone, a young Latin girl of 21, living at home, didn't come home two nights in a row, wouldn't one assume the family (four brothers) and father search for her car - and it would, I would think,, easily seen parked in front of the hotel in the heart of town?

    And, the girlfriend she spoke with indicating she was on her own steps going home - wouldn't the family come Saturday afternoon have seriously questioned this friend as well as all her friends as to who she recently met, etc., etc.


    no clue (none / 0) (#114)
    by pac on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 05:22:52 PM EST
    I read, I think? that Stephany's brother said they thought she was kidnapped and thought I read the police said to wait for a call but? or am I incorrect? Odd to me but no clue why

    Yes, it would seem that someone would drive around and look for her car,

    No word that I have heard confirmed how Stephany met Joran. Just at the casino table or introduced? How Joran ended up in Peru at the Chinese Inn with someone with political power of some sorts daughter, with a mysterious, if so, camera, on the 5th anniversary of Natalee's disappearance, and the drunken poker playing event allegedly paid for by ?  all a little much, yes. The fact that Stephany also happens to end up dead in Joran's room but none of this has anything to do just coincidence?

    When I first came to this site it was pointed out that the 5th anniversary was no coincidence. How do others explain the coincidence, even with the confession?

    Joran's mother said he was "paranoid" and told her someone was following him. Was he paranoid? I don't know.  

    Lots of odd.


    Aloha Untold Story (none / 0) (#103)
    by AlohaMade on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:34:03 PM EST
    I am going to soak this in too...if you don't mind? get back to you tomorrow. Mahalo Nui Loa!

    soaking? (none / 0) (#119)
    by pac on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:27:43 AM EST
    To look at something a good thing. Whether anything there to find other than what is obvious, don't know.  

    possibilities (none / 0) (#104)
    by pac on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 11:40:37 PM EST
    Until more time to think there are a few possibilities.

    Whether Joran was violent or whatever since the age of four, didn't see the show, that should be more reason to have females popping out of the woodwork on television? but?  I don't know.

    Also, somewhere as a result of the evaluation was it said he didn't test as if he was violent to the point of causing death? but room for error I suppose?

    I can't write much for now but will pass along a few thoughts.

    Again, the 5th anniversary of Natalee's disappearance Stephany is murdered in Joran's hotel room yet it doesn't appear he was making a statement if true that he bought two cups of coffee to conceal or? whatever, or ran...  

    Just by chance Stephany ends up dead in Joran's hotel room on the 5th anniversary? and a meltdown is one possibililty with the date adding emotional baggage.

    More is needed to convince me that Joran tried to rape and then murdered someone in his own hotel room. Even if Joran made a typical pass which was in some way a physical and unexpected rejection, the known consequences would have most likely resulted with Stephany dead without being undressed?

    Trying to explain the removal of clothes in a situation other than rape and then taking in reported parts of the confession that Joran didn't know why he took her clothes off and didn't know why he choke or smothered or whatever. ? Also, he took his shirt off yet had his shirt on? Something is a little peculiar about the not remembering parts, but keep in mind I have not read the entire confession to know how many doesn't remember answers exist.

    Keeping an open mind about all of this but? at least narrowing down for now.

    Back to Aruba because this also happens to take place during an alleged extortion which is yet another coicidence. No offense to Mansurs, just in theory and all of my wonders?, but didn't I read that they are banking people and exactly how that wire transfer of money took place, from who and who could have made that observation?

    So, I have an open mind anything from kinky sex that Joran would not be able to explain without appearing like a rapist to a set up.  

    Possibly after more reading and proof I could be convinced that Joran will have tried to rape Stephany but for now I give him the benefit of the doubt considering the many other unusual possibilities and the so many coincidences. Or, maybe Joran was checking Stephany for a set up recording or ?   as someone suggested.

    In other words, how do you explain the removal of Stephany's clothes? My understanding, if correct?, is that Joran admitted removing the clothes after the death of Stephany rather than she was resting with them off in the room or?

    okay (none / 0) (#106)
    by pac on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:25:59 AM EST
    Okay, I am confused once again having read various about whether Joran claims to be coerced or just tricked into confession. Here I again read that Joran's lawyer is not intending to say that he didn't kill Stephany?  I have been juggle and often real physically tired when reading here so apt to overlook, etc.

    Untold Story: You said to think about Elton Garcia and the unusual circumstances I have read involving him. So, I have been thinking, of course compared to some of you it will be like winning the lottery if I hit on something but? won't even cost a dollar?

    Is it clear how Joran will be represented? or that will be determined after this ongoing process?

    The cameras are important IF? and Elton Garcia is important because he was in the mix, oddly enough identified the body, supposedly had the casino call the hotel due to his concern that Joran and Stephany had been abducted and so on? so he is of interest in way it goes? I think? I have also read other conflicting reports.

    How much evidence is there, other than video of Joran and Stephany entering and Joran leaving with his bags? Joran's bloody shirt is lying across Stephany according to some reports. Joran also left other items, cell charger, can't remember but more. Joran was unable to answer some of the questions, he didn't know?, so how to explain that? If some of his confession doesn't appear possible, then how to know that even the accuracy of what he stated otherwise? Joran has a history of telling quite a few confession style stories, never in such detail!, so and but I haven't done my homework and yes the fact that he confessed and what appears by a few short video pictures.

    I am trying to get it together here but before I can operate at my best will be a few days.  Until then I will try to catch up and not yak so much!

    Untold Story (none / 0) (#107)
    by pac on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:30:22 AM EST
    Untold Story:  I keep thinking, or trying to anyway!

    maybe this helps (none / 0) (#108)
    by pac on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:53:30 AM EST
    This much!

    Joran's mother, redundant again!, said she thinks he "could" have killed Stephany. She also said she continues to believe that Joran left Natalee on the beach, indicating an innocent of harm to focus.

    Mrs. VDS also sent the ex girlfriend an e mail which read , my opinion, as if she felt something was "stinking" about the situation. The e mail, best I can remember, would have been sent before she was interviewed on television. Assuming she told all that she might consider on television, or if with more information she began to believe Joran may have killed Stephany? but,

    I guess what I question more than anything is if Natalee was not a situation similar to Stephany, a violent scence, and with no reported violence or stories from ladies? what led to the current? Someone who is as reported or someone as a result of traum mishandled? or?????  

    In other words, I do not have an agenda like some. I do notice the lack of supporting evidence before Natalee's disappearance and between Natalee's disappearance and Stephany's death.

    oh and (none / 0) (#109)
    by pac on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 08:01:14 AM EST
    Oh, and people who knew Joran before Natalee's disappearance, the best I could tell by reports, did not think Joran capable of harm. No females making money giving television interviews with stories. Between Natalee's disappearance and Stephany's death there are reports such as Joran's dad claimed him as  "changed boy" and other reports stating that people rejected him and so assuming his life changed, not as much as Natalee's, still no stories other than Mr. ? who recorded him as a supposed friend and now has awards so?   What I am trying to be fair and look at it all but lacking in a lot of the news. In other words, would you think that Joran would have more of a history or more lesser stories coming forth? rather than two huge notices?

    Also, the coincidence , 5th anniversary, no appearance of making a statement.  

    Hope this better explains my lack of understanding.