Peruvian Judge Schedules Interrogation of Joran Van Der Sloot

Judge Carlos Morales Cordova of the 4th Criminal Court in Lima, who is conducting the inquiry into the charges of murder and simple theft filed against Joran Van der Sloot, has scheduled an interrogation of Joran at Miguel Castro Castro Prison for 10:00 am Monday Morning. [Google translation here. Another version is here, translation here.)

The press release in Spanish is here and the Google Translated version here.

Judge Cordova is also requesting psychiatric and other expert evaluations, and the autopsy findings, to assist him in deciding whether Joran should stand trial on these charges. He also plans to schedule a reconstruction of the crime scene and will interrogate the three taxi drivers charged with failing to report the crime.


I think the second article linked above says Judge Carlos Morales Cordova also mentioned today he wants to protect Joran's rights by keeping the Aruba and Peru cases separate. (At least I hope that's what the Spanish version says, I can't tell from the Google translation.)

Reports are conflicting as to whether Joran's lawyer actually quit (a report from the Netherlands today says he changed his mind and will continue to represent him) and if he did, whether he will have a new attorney by Monday.

Also today, Peru approved the formal request of Aruban authorities to question Joran in Peru.

Aruban authorities say they don't think they will get there before August, as they don't want to interfere with the Peruvian investigation. They don't hold out much hope for a transfer, at least before Joran is convicted and sentenced in Peru, but it's also not ruled out.

The Flores family continues to make the TV rounds, and tonight will be on Larry King Live. (Last night it was Nancy Grace and before that Greta.) They continue to say they want closure for the Holloways, and as long as Joran is locked up, they don't care whether it's in Peru or Aruba or elsewhere.

I hope he is able to retain Cesar Nakasaki, the attorney for former President Fujimoro, as he sounds more than capable of arranging a global agreement between all jurisdictions and competently representing Joran.

Joran's mother was supposed to be going to Peru this week, with a media rep from the TV station that is paying for her travel, but I haven't seen any reports that she has arrived. It doesn't sound like she has sufficient funds to hire a top-notch lawyer.

Last night I read the Peru statutes (translated into English) on "honest confession" (Section 136, amended by Article 1 inc. b) Law No. 28 760, published on June 14, 2006)and the penalties for murder. Here's my initial assessment, which I may revise when I have more time to review them.

It seems if the Judge finds Joran's confession meets the requirements of the statute (only extortion and kidnapping are excepted), he can sentence him either to 1/3 below the minimum or to 1/3 of the minimum -- the English translation on this isn't clear which one it is and while I've seen both reported, I suspect it's the former.

Article 161. Effect of sincere confession confession .- If, additionally, is sincere and spontaneous....the court, specifying reasons make it necessary, may reduce the penalty to prudently in a third below the legal minimum.

A Peruvian lawyer argues here (English translation here) that since former President Fujimori got a reduction for his honest confession, Joran, assuming he's being truthful, should receive one as well. Here's a 2006 Law Review article on Peru's honest confession law.

Also, the penalties for various types of murder were revised in 2006, as was much of Peru's criminal code, and trying to figure out which is the current version has not been easy. Simple murder (Article 106) carries either two to six years or six to twenty years, depending on which is the original provision and which is the amendment, and murder with aggravated circumstances (Committed with ferocity; for profit or pleasure; to facilitate or conceal another crime; with great cruelty or premeditation; or for fire, explosion, poison or any other medium capable of endangering the life or health of others) carries a minimum of 15 years. (Article 108,amended by Article 1 of Law No. 28,878, published on August 17, 2006.)

One thing I haven't been able to find is a copy of the Prosecutor's criminal complaint specifying the charges. Some news reports say "simple murder" and others say murder with ferocity. I assume it's the latter, but I'm not sure. (Update: Here's the press release from the Judiciary (Google translated version here) which says he's charged with aggravated murder (section 108) and simple theft.)

According to the prosecutor's report, the same that was presented about 04:00 pm today, Van der Sloot would have killed Flores Ramirez with the aggravation of having acted with great ferocity and cruelty, as provided in Article 108 of the Penal Code Sections 1 and 3, which defines the crime of murder.
In any event, it will be Judge Carlos Morales Cordova's job to decide if the prosecutor's charges are sustainable, and if so, he will order a trial. The trial takes place before a panel of three judges (no jury.) But if he finds an honest confession (which he will begin to evaluate on Monday when he questions Joran, after which he will compare it to the prosecutor/police report), it seems he can terrminate proceedings and proceed to sentencing. From Article 136, Effects of Confession:

The defendant's confession corroborated with evidence, relieve the judge to practice the steps that are not essential and can terminate the investigation if this does not affect other defendants or not to seek impunity for another, for which there is a suspicion of guilt.

In Spanish:

“La confesión del inculpado corroborada con prueba, releva al juez de practicar las diligencias que no sean  indispensables, pudiendo dar por concluida la investigación siempre que ello no perjudique a otros inculpados...

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    Peruvian system of justice (none / 0) (#1)
    by Peter G on Wed Jun 16, 2010 at 08:35:54 PM EST
    TL, perhaps you should briefly explain (or provide explanatory links) for your loyal readers who have little or no knowledge of the "civil law" or "inquisitorial" system of criminal justice, how the process of the investigating judge works.  It is so different from our adversarial system.  Can the suspect decline to answer the judge's questions, as under the U.S. privilege against compulsory self-incrimination?  Is there a presumption of innocence? What is the role of the defense attorney in the investigative stage?  If you have addressed these issues previously, and I missed it, could you link back?

    Here you go (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 16, 2010 at 09:06:20 PM EST
    My earlier post on the Peruvian justice system. Quoting the State Department report of March, 2010:

       Trial Procedures

            The justice system is based on the Napoleonic Code. The prosecutor investigates cases and submits an opinion to a first instance judge, who determines if sufficient evidence exists to open legal proceedings. The judge conducts an investigation, evaluates facts, determines guilt or innocence, and issues a sentence. All defendants are presumed innocent; they have the right to be present at trial, to call witnesses, and to be represented by counsel, although in practice the public defender system often failed to provide indigent defendants with qualified attorneys. The Ministry of Justice provided indigent persons with access to an attorney at no cost, although these attorneys were often poorly trained.

        ...Defendants and their attorneys generally have access to government-held evidence related to their cases for recent crimes, except in cases related to the human rights abuses of the period 1980-2000 and particularly with respect to those involving the Ministry of Defense.

    The laptop (none / 0) (#3)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 16, 2010 at 10:58:22 PM EST
    I think I understood from Jean Casarez's reporting tonight that the laptop has not yet been examined, which seems exceedingly strange.

    I think I understood her to say that it's the judge who has to directly order the laptop to be examined and that he is expected to do so before meeting with Joran for his interview/interrogation at the end of this week (at the jail, apparently, for Joran's safety).

    IOW, it sounds like there's no warrant procedure for law enforcement to search things per se, but that the "investigating judge" orders searches and results are reported to him, not the prosecutors.

    I could have that all wrong, or Casarez could, but she speaks at least some Spanish and does have a law degree, so the error, if any, is probably mine.

    She also said that while defendants or accused are not explicitly legally compelled to cooperate and talk to the judge, the judges can and do hold that against them in making their determination on cases.

    I'm most fascinated by the differences between the Napoleonic system and ours in terms of the investigation of crimes, what law enforcement and prosecution are permitted, etc., in comparison to our system and how that balances the whole dynamic in different ways.  Wish I understood more about it!

    that sounds about right to me (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 16, 2010 at 11:56:17 PM EST
    And I also find the differences in the systems fascinating. Particularly since Peru has made such a great effort to reform its code and add defendants' rights in the past 4 years. One thing they've done is increase the use of electronic monitoring of those convicted to reduce the number of incarcerated inmates. They really are exploring alternatives to jail.

    They also are doing a good job with transparency -- everything is online. Even the prison director's page has a blog. I only wish I could understand more Spanish.

    On the other hand, I could not find the right to remain silent in their constitution or laws -- I didn't read everything but I haven't seen it mentioned. They really seem to believe confession is good for the soul.

    And while they have a public defender system now, it seems to be very tied to the Minister of Justice's and prosecutor's office.

    They are very slow at conducting trials, and thousands of prisoners are languishing without having been tried or convicted. I also don't like the idea of the three judge panel instead of the jury.

    Their prison system is really bad, and although they put a lot of smiling photos on their prison website, I don['t think anyone's fooled.


    As far as my understanding goes (none / 0) (#6)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 12:40:18 AM EST
    and it's not much, the right to remain silent is not in the Napoleonic code.  I think that may be unique, or at least original, to the U.S. system.

    But the Napoleonic system has other protections we lack, such as the discouragement if not outright ban on plea bargains, and more importantly, the lack of a penalty for lying to investigators.

    But every country, I think, has their own variations, and I don't know enough about it to know whether those are core values they all share or whether those things are present in the Dutch/Aruban system but not in the Peruvian or French or what have you.

    I think I like the concept of "investigating judge," which we also had with the endless but ultimately pretty definitive judicial investigation of Princess Diana's car crash.  It utterly depends, of course, on having honest judges, but in principle, it's something I'm more comfortable with than our prosecution/law enforcement structure.


    So, 2 questions.... (none / 0) (#8)
    by thadjock on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 10:36:48 AM EST
    A)  you mentioned that it didn't appear Joran's mother had the funds to hire top tier representation for Joran.  Put this into practical perspective for us, what kind of money would it take to mount an all out defense for someone accused of a crime like this with Joran's past baggage?  and compare the cost of a defense in Peru, vs defending him say in the US.  I would just guess that there would be alot more prep for a trial of this magnitude in the US, therefore more expensive than Peru?  We're into solid 7 figures either way?

    and what's the likelyhood that Nakasaki would take this case probono, some high profile atty's take on high profile cases just to add to their own noteriety right?  

    B) I guess this is more of a thought than a question but maybe you can expand on your comment that you thought it looks like Peru is implementing alternatives to Jail.  Are you suggesting that Joran might not get any prison time and just have monitoring?  

    I think unless he's able to clear his name, and clear it with the media, he's going to be in a "prison" no matter what the verdict for the rest of his life.  Even if he's acquitted, there's still a target on his back, and high probability that just some whack-job with a Hinkley complex would kill Joran just to impress his gf.   where does he go to be safe?  And if he's wearing an ankle monitor, with court prescribed perimiters, it's like fish in a barrel.

    I still think his confession is more him buying his life from the people who don't want the real truth to come out. Like they've assured him nothing will happen to him as long as he keeps his mouth shut. they could protect him even if he ends up in a Peruvian prison for 5-7.  That they were just making a point with the SF frame job.  There has to be a flash drive in a dutch bank vault that Jorans father left with someone who's willing to fork it over to authorities if this goes nuclear, but sadly those negotiations would probably never be made public.  Come on Joran, write the book.


    didn't mean to double post ; sketchy wi-fi (none / 0) (#10)
    by thadjock on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 10:51:47 AM EST
    no I wasn't suggesting (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 01:29:25 PM EST
    Joran might get electronic monitoring. I was referring to recent overall reforms in Peruvian prison/justice that apply to everyone. Greater use of electronic monitoring as a means to reduce the inmate population is one of them, but I doubt murder would qualify.

    Judge has a tought job, given the suspect's (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 12:03:54 AM EST
    apparent inconsistent statements regarding the crime he is accused of committing.

    Criminal trial I attended in France (also Napoleonic Code) had three jduges plus a jury.  Co-defendants sat next to each other in a barred enclosure.  The defense attorneys sat away from their clients.  During the trial, psych reports were read aloud.  Charge was armed robbery.  

    motive (none / 0) (#7)
    by pac on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 03:55:38 AM EST
    Maybe Joran could have sold his laptop for enough money to return home. Somehow the current theory that Joran was ruthless enough to kill Stephany for money is ??? and in a hotel room in his name?  If money was the objective he would have killed her somewhere other than his hotel?

    One missing girl and one dead girl and no known pattern.

    Supposedly Joran claimed a confrontation with Stephany began with a message on his computer from someone about killing him, mongoloid, due to the Holloway case. It is unbelievable if the computer has not been examined to determine if that information is accurate and who sent the message. Have there been any reports about who sent the alleged message?

    Did Joran have any psychological testing previous to the death of Stephany?  How unfortunate that process wasn't or couldn't be accomplished when Joran began telling the various stories about the Holloway case.

    At least Joran's family members have learned that speaking with the media only feeds the frenzy. Of course, they do need to find a way to deal with inappropriate reporting, etc.


    they don't need the laptop for that (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 11:30:45 AM EST
    they can get the info from Facebook with a court order or subpoena.

    And what about (none / 0) (#13)
    by Nemi on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    his cell phone? According to Joran he was forced to give it to one of the taxi drivers. Wouldn't the investigators be able to trace possible important information from that too?

    Joran also claimed to have a $7.000 watch taken from him by this same taxi driver (or his brother?). Why would he even be wearing a watch that expensive? And traveling in South America!


    they should be able to get the phone records (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 01:24:28 PM EST
    from the service carrier. They have the number (as it was in Elton Garcia's phone) and the records will show the numbers dialed and numbers from which calls were received.

    I've read different reports about the taxi (none / 0) (#18)
    by thadjock on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 03:31:18 PM EST
    drivers too, either there's some confusion or the translations are errantly divergent.  Originally I understood Joran had not told the taxi drivers  he had committed a crime, but then the drivers were charged  for not reporting the crime (which doesn't make sense, how could they report a crime they didn't know about) after the police apprehended Joran in chile.

    PS: $7k is not an expensive watch for an amateur poker player, and it's easier currency to carry around with you than $7k in cash, for the busy "alleged" fugitive on the run.


    In an earlier post (none / 0) (#20)
    by Nemi on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 04:10:51 PM EST
    (Sunday) Jeralyn made a link to Joran's confession (it has now mysteriously turned into a pdf?!), and the description of his interaction with the taxi driver makes it evident why the police would want to question him.

    It was interesting reading it. Joran's politeness and openness is kind of baffling.

    And thanks for the information about the watch. Wow! ;)


    Trivia tidbits (none / 0) (#12)
    by Nemi on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 12:51:34 PM EST
    from the Dutch media:

    Joran has befriended his co-prisoner the Colombian murderer. They are playing poker together.

    In the beginning Joran had his meals with the prison guards out of fear of poisoning. (Doesn't say whether his or theirs.)

    After three months Joran will be moved out of the present protected prison section. It is only ment for child molesters and prisoners who can't defend themselves. As Joran is "young and strong" he should be able to take care of himself in the "ordinary" prison with the other inmates.

    it was the prison officials who (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 01:25:21 PM EST
    were afraid Joran's food would be poisoned if he got the standard prisoner fare.

    the statement about going into general (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 01:26:46 PM EST
    population after 3 months was made by Joran's lawyer Maxim to Greta. It wasn't made by a prison official. He also told her Joran would prefer being in the general population.

    According (none / 0) (#19)
    by Nemi on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 03:46:29 PM EST
    to "De Telegraaf" though, it was the Director of the Castro Castro Prison who stated that, as he is young he should be able to take care of himself in the general prison.

    I'm glad Joran's making friends (none / 0) (#21)
    by thadjock on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 05:42:13 PM EST
    He's going to need them, even if it's only 3-6 yrs. I supposed it's possible the Flores family isn't as revered among prison inmates as in the civillian population.  maybe Joran can meet some other friends who can make his Aruban troubles go away permanently too.

    What do you mean ... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 09:32:49 PM EST
    maybe Joran can meet some other friends who can make his Aruban troubles go away permanently too.

    ... by that?


    The enemy of my enemy is my Friend (none / 0) (#23)
    by thadjock on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 11:20:06 PM EST
    ... and who is it .... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 06:48:20 AM EST
    ... that's your "enemy" (causing JVDS's "Aruban troubles") that you're hoping will be made to "permanently go away" - and what do you mean "permanently go away"?

    Don'tcha love when someone likes to dance around what they really want to say when they don't have the guts to spit it out?


    I called out that comment (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 09:26:46 AM EST
    for what jock is pushing for and my comment was deleted.  I was expecting that the offending comment was also deleted.... I would think on this site, advocating for the death of anyone would be inappropriate.  I know a certain parent of a certain victim is unpopular but jeez.

    what am i pushing for? (none / 0) (#29)
    by thadjock on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 10:03:57 AM EST
    I'm suggesting that Joran's troubles in aruba are the result of him getting involved with someone who  decided that Joran was going to take the fall for the disappearance of NH.  you fight one crime syndicate who's giving you problems with another crime syndicate.  maybe columbian vs venezualan for example.  kinda like gansta world cup.  

    I think you just got the wrong impression.


    I didn't see anyone calling for death (none / 0) (#40)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 08:07:09 PM EST
    and your comment was a personal one bringing up his views on the death penalty, which I didn't see him express. It seemed like an attack.

    If I'm wrong and there is a comment by Thadjock urging the death penalty for Joran, let me know. That is inappropriate, especially when he hasn't been tried yet.


    I've never posted anything even remotely (none / 0) (#41)
    by thadjock on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 08:43:44 PM EST
    suggesting I was in favor of the death penalty for Joran.  I don't even think he's guilty.  I think he's been set up.  I'm the guy who would hang the jury (if there was one, and I was on it) because I think there's way more than reasonable doubt in both the aruba AND peru cases.

    I didn't see waldenpond's rebuke before it was deleted, but if he/she wants to quote whatever I said that caused the confusion I'd be happy to clarify. Somtimes I assume people read the entire thread, and I'm guilty of exploring thoughts in  multiple posts. Though I do sense a confrontational vibe from a few members.


    I you wanna know why the Aruba investigation (none / 0) (#26)
    by thadjock on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 08:50:27 AM EST
    was shifted to, and kept on Joran, google Jossy Mansur, and the Mansur family.

    I tried (none / 0) (#31)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 09:17:55 PM EST
    For some reason, all I keep getting are a links to Little Red Riding Hood, Mother Goose, and lists of other fairy tales.

    Go figure.


    impossible to figure (none / 0) (#24)
    by pac on Thu Jun 17, 2010 at 11:41:12 PM EST
    Maybe off subject but after reading so many who believe Joran's father quilty of being involved I remembered also reading that supposedly the father read info online early morning after the disappearance regarding pills and alcohol. Eventually I came to the conclusion that the father would have been better off under most circumstances regarding Natalee with a body rather than without. Pills and alcohol could be explained as an accident and even the date rape drug theory didn't prove Joran slipped the drug. So much mention of the father's connections but the connections would have worked as well most circumstances with a body. In my opinion, that narrows down a body that was better off dealt with then missing under most circumstances and what would a circumstance be for his father to view as better hidden or be involved in a disposal? No body means lingering limbo and a body explained as an accident meant closure for all.

    Also, remember that Mr. Van Der Sloot eventually remarked that Joran was a boy changed which appeared he thought the situation brought about a difference in Joran. Had Mr. Van Der Sloot seen or known of violence or some need of disposal rather than a body he would been less likely to view the situation as the reason for the change and would have unlikely made that comment?

    Whether or not Mr. VDS was involved in a disposal I don't know but there are many reasons to also believe he would have preferred a body.  

    If Natalee died there is nothing to show initial intent or preparation to hide a body in such a short period of time. In a case of panic three boys or a boy or ?? manage to successfully hide a body, return home, take a test the following morning, etc. One boy, Joran didn't have a car which limited his ability to an extent.

    So far no real proof that Natalee is dead although most appear to consider that is the most likely theory.

    The money theory involving Stephany's death just doesn't make sense. To kill someone for money in your hotel room knowing you won't get far sounds like desperation to explain or an attempt to place an unjust charge for harsher punishment, which didn't happen. So, either no motive or these two had something kinky going on which got out of hand. Just curious but if he was choking her and she was willing and the situation got out of hand how much time is that?  Maybe rage such as someone actually sent a message about the Holloway case and Joran had a meltdown. So many have hassled him about that case without the rage so ? maybe just the fact she tried to leave or hit him in the head led to blows but to strangle her with his shirt on top of all of that? And then no previous history of violence with women that I have heard.  

    Mr. Van Der Sloot would have been better off explaining an accident and dead body rather than what followed as a result of the disappearance, not to mention subjecting himself to a crime. Also, Mr. VDS would probably have not suggested the boys try to say they dropped Natalee at the hotel, which they said initially.

    Joran's failure to recognize he was better off with a body could have been panic, not suppose to be away from home, etc., if Natalee is dead and without obvious violence that couldn't have been attributed to an accident or self protection. Possibly if all three boys had dna in her that would be a problem but no history of violence or rape reported about any of the boys involved?

    So much mystery but possibly, if Natalee's disappearance was an accident rather than murder, Joran decided he would never be considered a guy who could make it doing good again and decided to be a notorious poker playing story telling hustler ending in a meltdown murder rage?

    How do you figure?  


    there wasn't the option of choosing to deal (none / 0) (#27)
    by thadjock on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 09:02:47 AM EST
    with a body, because I believe NH left the island that night alive, probably drugged, but nontheless alive.  there were reports that she was seen in venezuala the following day.  (reports the police were perhaps paid to ignore?) at any rate the leads were never investigated because they had already decided on a suspect, Joran.

    My own insight (none / 0) (#30)
    by AlohaMade on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 07:26:04 PM EST
    I found this article very interestin, and informative, but I have several comments, and questions. First, if the Peruvian Justice system bases it's decision on the honesty policy, then would they take into consideration, that Joran has told at least three differnt discriptions of what happend to Stephany. First you have the Chiliean story about the two men hiding in the room, and robbed them, only killing Stephany? Second was he killed her after returning from his coffe excursion, when he realized she was snooping around on his computer. Third, they were playing online poker, and a threatning message pops up on his face book about Natalee. What about the fact that he was trying to create an alabi which we can see from the infamous "coffee cup video?" Why was that not mentioned in his "coerced" confession? I mean if we are talking about honesty here, and it was said that the investigators told him, the Judge would go easier on him, if he told the truth about what happened that unfaithful morning. Then they must have expalined this section of the law to him. Let's face it in all of Joran's stories there is always some element of truth. Will the Judge see these things.
    The other thing I would like to know about. Why is Aruba trying so adiment about questioning Joran now, when they have made it perfectly clear, that they have never gotten a positive result to any of his stories. Why hasn't Aruba gone back to start requstioning the witnesses from the beging of the case? Like the Kalpoe brothers? I mean, no matter what story they give now, it could possibly exonerate them in the eyes of the Aruban citizens. Or do you think that possibly there were more, "High Level" government servents in Aruba involved in some kind of sex trade operation, along whith Paulus and Joran? IMO it seems that Aruba is trying too hard to go to Peru, to question Joran, when I feel maybe they want to get there, not to question him, but to shut him up about Aruba, before he tells too much. I have a lot more theories, and questions, but I will start here. Mahalo Nui Loa

    today's news (none / 0) (#32)
    by pac on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 09:25:02 PM EST
    Tonight I read that Natalee's brother believes the story that Joran told the investigative reporter. The story was that Natalee went into seizures and he put her body in the ocean. If so, that sounds like an accident and not an intentional murder. An accident and a boy 17 years old who panics made more sense to me all along. Regardless, no closure for Natalee's family. I can relate to the Holloway family knowing their interest is in their child.

    If Natalee's brother is correct then possibly the Holloway case did eventually lead to Joran's meltdown. Such an injustice to Joran as well as Natalee if there was some way to encourage Joran's confession to panic and disposal of a body due to an accident. Keep in mind that I am unaware of the punishment but? the punishment that Joran has absorbed since Natalee's disappearance has been enormous. Possibly Joran refused to admit to the disposal of the body or possibly the implication if someone helped, such as a friend.

    Yes, it is possible that Natalee is alive. One thought is she could have had seizures or distress due to drinking and or drugs and someone was called, possibly the drug dealer for instance, who put her on a boat and Joran doesn't even know if she lived. Not so much as a flip flop turned up to prove she is dead.

    I doubt that Joran's father helped dispose of a body and thought up the dumb story that they dropped her off in front of her hotel but who knows?  If Joran's father had no part in a disposal then he took such an unfair beating and should have looked for ways to sue the media?

    Without a body, so many stories, and the recent murder, Natalee's disappearance continues to be no more than speculation, but considering the recent, with a possibility for a more dangerous twist.

    The fact that Joran's brother believes the seizure and ocean version appears to mean he does not think Joran murdered Natalee? Or, I am confused about what he meant thinking the Holloways did think that Joran murdered Natalee?

    Will Joran be able to have his own psychological evaluation with a doctor of his choice or ??

    answer (none / 0) (#33)
    by pac on Fri Jun 18, 2010 at 11:51:44 PM EST
    In response to "my on insight", the best I could tell from previous reports, the evening when Joran met up with Natalee he had not planned to go and then decided to at some point. If so, then there doesn't appear to be any pre plan to sell Natalee. If there was a spur of the moment plan   I don't know. There is always the possibility that Natalee was in distress and whoever helped did so because there was self interest. How many people do you know who you can suddenly call to help dispose of a body?

    Yes, I agree, why doesn't Aruba go back to investigating others who are not locked in jail in Peru? Maybe they are and we are not informed. By placing Joran on the beach with Natalee without the Kalpoe brothers why would they want to involved themselves further unless Joran told them something that they can now repeat?

    How difficult is it to dispose of a body in the ocean alone without a boat? Joran didn't have a boat? The best I could tell the there wasn't much time frame. If someone else was involved what would have been their interest unless they provided the drugs and would have been implicated in that respect or something like sex trade? My theory is that if someone helped dispose of a body then most likely there was self interest involved but? stranger things have happened.

    Leaving Natalee on the beach would prevent questions about what happened to her, accident or not, if her body was disposed because with that story there is nothing to indicate that she was dead. Somehow a short term goal such as that didn't work long term.

    Exactly the point when Joran stopped claiming that he left Natalee on the beach and began telling the various tales I am unsure. Were all of the new stories after he made the disposal confession to the investigative reporter whom he considered a friend? Possibly he wanted to make that story less significant by presenting more? or did he tell the media varous stories before the investigative reporter released his recording?

    thadjock (none / 0) (#34)
    by pac on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 12:33:02 AM EST
    Do you mean like when Joran mentioned Dauri? to the investigative reporter?

    thadjock (none / 0) (#35)
    by pac on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 12:43:13 AM EST
    Okay, I should have read about the Mansuer family before so glad you made the suggestion. Yes, I read now and have a better understanding. At one time early in the Holloway case I was yaking on a site about that newspaper, the man and a senario and in general when suddenly strange things started happening to my computer. I figured it was just a coincidence but finally showed someone due so odd that a little star would come up and backspace the wording when I would try to search and wipe out what I typed in, real weird! Never happened before and never again.

    Mahalo for the reply, and opinion (none / 0) (#36)
    by AlohaMade on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 01:03:47 AM EST
    IMO I have a different theory, and some if the information coming in daily confirms my self opinion so many ways... try this one on. A lot of times a psycopath, will come into their facination of death around pubirty. it is my contention that, Joran may have started killing small animals i.e. neighborhood pets and so on. More than likely on the Van der Sloot property.It could be a graveyard of evidence. I think Joran called his Dad after he killed Natalee, we know from statements by police, and media that Paulus' car was awfully clean, and when the police came to the VDS home, Pop met them outside and denied their access. The had to get a search warrent to enter the property. But it is my understanding that they only searched for evidence in the home. I think NH is burried on that property, which would explain why No Body of water has proven positive results. The stories always ended with putting her in water...That was to throw the investegators off. I'm curious when they put that pool in.
      I read a transcript from one of the tv show's that a witness said Joran and his Father were gambling together the first time he saw Natalee, he pointed her out to his father and said he wanted her, or something to that effect. I believe he met her before that unfaithful night.I believe the Kalpoe brothers became unwilling suspects as JVDS's plan was unfolding, and IMO I think this was probably his first kill, and as far as the "ruffies story" I feel he did drug her, and was going to bring her to his father, and with every bit of strength NH had left she fought, which resulted in a simular death as Stephany. Probably why Paulus dropped dead at a young 57, carrying this weight around. You've got Joran consistantly talking about the case, and a depleated bank account it's a lot of pressure. Anita, I don't think yet believes her son is a killer, I feel she may be a subserviant woman who believed what her husband wanted her to, and did what he said. I also feel Paulus had threatend a lot of people i.e. the Kalpoe brs. And really everyone stuck to their stories othrwise the shoe might be on anothers foot. It to me makes no difference if there is a body, because every version Joran has giving, he has implicated himself, and admitted to being the last person to see her alive. Joran has done a good job at keeping the focus off of his family, until recently, and now according to Peruvian officals, he want's to implicate his father??? I am so happy to have found this site, I have a lot to get off my chest. And I value all of your opinions as well, maybe with all our heads together we can figure this out! ; )
    Mahalo Nui Loa

    also (none / 0) (#37)
    by AlohaMade on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 01:06:16 AM EST
    go to Radaronline.com they have crime scene photos, shows bloddy clothes, and pictures of Joran going to get the coffee with the striped shirt. Mahalo

    response (none / 0) (#38)
    by pac on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 04:37:32 PM EST
    Respond to Aloha,

    In film the VDS home was also very clean so it could be they keep the car real tidy too. Take a look back at the inside paint job to recognize they weren't cleaning or painting half way. I think the clean thing might be a german or dutch trait. No way to rule out anything at this point about the car. Joran could have used the car? Also, if there is a death scent involved I am unsure how difficult that would be to remove or how the car was examined, dogs, etc.

    Possibly I missed some earlier reports but I don't remember anyone testifying that Joran killed animals or of anything to indicate a facination with death. Considering the many girls and friends the lack of unusual stories about Joran adds to the confusion. The lack of an obvious background of problems made Natalee's disappearance appear unintentional regarding death.

    Do the VDS continue living on the property? Maybe the property can be examined now? People bury pets on their property but would someone with a fasination of killing animals take the time to bury them? I don't know,

    There is a picture of the VDS property taken from the air shown online somewhere which was taken during the Natalee investigation period, I think?, and there is a pool.

    One point, I remember reading that Mrs. VDS said she didn't know the Kalpe brothers well which indicated Joran might have ventured outside of his usual school friends. By venturing out he might have picked up new habits, such as ????? which led to disaster.

    Asking for a search warrant sounds typical somehow, especially for a lawyer?

    If Mr. VDS was involved or wanting Natalee then what would have been the plan to keep her from talking? Did they plan to kill her? sell her? or think she wouldn't remember?

    One BIG point is that Mr. VDS wasn't in Peru and there was a dead woman in Joran's hotel room.

    PS. One thought that stays in my mind is a letter that one of the Kalpoe brothers wrote to someone which was posted online at one point. In the letter he is describing the activity the night that Natalee disappeared. If you read the letter and then read between the lines there is a need to question why does he say they didn't turn off anywhere else or Natalee wanted to go see the sharks and so on. He also said that Natalee fell and Joran tried to help her, regardless the claim was made outside the hotel where they didn't really drop her off but?  a lot of detail to make up about falling and Joran trying to be helpful. There was so much to read at that time but for someone to go back over the letter might be important.

    Last night I read that Mrs. VDS sent an e mail to Joran's old girlfriend tellling her that Joran was not a murdererer. The article went so far as to say Mrs. VDS was indicating a set up but after reading the e mail I can't tell for sure exactly what she was trying to indicate.

    odd notice (none / 0) (#39)
    by pac on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 05:05:41 PM EST
    Like I mentioned in an earlier comment    

    On one site discussing the Holloway case someone put a link for something to read. Although I am always reluctant to click on a link, I clicked to read and there was what appeared something like a lot of newpaper print written in a foreign language. I only read and write english so no idea about the content. After that, much happened to my computer including a little star * which would pop up on the right hand side of whatever I wrote into search and slowly backspace out the wording over and over again. Also, other notices and then started the warnings to re install my computer protection and so on.  My computer protection had somehow been wiped out. What took place did not appear like a virus.

    Anyone with an experience like that?

    For pac (none / 0) (#42)
    by AlohaMade on Sun Jun 20, 2010 at 02:53:10 AM EST
    Nope haven't had an experience like that, thanks for the warning, and once again; Mahalo, for your insight, and reply to my earlier post. This is why I decided to join this site, most of the news blogs can have a lot of Boohockey. It is nice to share intelligent opinions with fellow crime enthusiast's. My Mother and I disscus this case everyday (she is 79 I am 45), and have followed notorius crimes for years now, as well as trials. We toss things over everyday, sometimes 5x a day. I am in Honolulu, her South Carolina. But she's not so good at the computer. Lol
      I guess what I am trying to say, is we have other theories too, but they all end up with Papa involved. Mahalo too for those tidbits, if you can find those sites I would be interested. I think I should have been a "Criminal Profiler," instead of a bartender. I don't know about you, but I would like to figure out what in God's name was this guy thinking? How did he get this way? I also really appreciate the informative replies, I value your opinion as well! Did you have the chance to go to the radaronline.com ? It was very informative, including crime scene photos, and police report, translated on right side.
    Mahalo Nui Loa, Aikane (Friend)