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What Do Progressives Believe About Health Care Reform?

More good stuff from Ezra Klein:

This bill is Clintonian: It achieves liberal ends through market means, and since conservatives frequently claim they are also in favor of access to medical care, it's not even clear that near-universal coverage can properly be called a liberal end. Not to mention that it's more conservative than the Great Triangulator himself was: It doesn't resemble his reforms so much as the Republican alternative to his reforms. But Democrats haven't gotten credit for that, in part because the opposition of Republicans meant they had to keep their liberals onboard, and that cut against trumpeting the conservative structure of the legislation.

But if President Mitt Romney had proposed this bill, a substantial number among his party would have stood with him on it, and no one would have trouble identifying what was conservative within it. And, to be fair, many Democrats would have fought the legislation every step of the way.

(Emphasis supplied.) Ezra has been great since the bill passed. The unanswered question though is the one I pose in my title.

Speaking for me only

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    This just proves to me (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 09:47:03 AM EST
    that he was biting his tongue and cheerleading all the way through. Probably he thought he was serving a higher purpose.

    Time will tell.

    Sure, that's obvious. The question is, (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 09:55:30 AM EST
    which higher purpose?
    Do you really think he would have written against the public option if the White House had made it central?
    He was a complete tool---and a very effective one.

    Parent
    Really? (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:32:37 AM EST
    He speaks of getting "credit" for passing a Republican bill.  Who does he think is going to give Democrats credit for passing a Republican bill?  I thought that trully strange.

    Why do we keep ending up with Democratic leadership in politics and punditry who are so desperate for conservative validation?  It is like some sort of psychological problem with them.  Running around desperately trying to please people who hate them - the hate is arguably irrational - but that's reason number one why it is folly to think a Dem could ever please these people.

    The worst of it is that the GOP has gone so far off the rails that unlike in the Clinton era when there were still a reasonable number of not insane people in the Republican Party - we are now really dealing with people and ideas that are very irrational and crazy.

    Parent

    'Clintonian'? This is Heritage Foundation level HC (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by Ellie on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:36:27 PM EST
    Even if Obama was genuinely striving for more than a sweetheart deal for his overlords, improvement in insurance and health care would be proceeding from so far back, I've dimmed even my low expectations.

    [...] Bruce Bartlett asserts that AEI has muzzled its health-care experts, because the truth is that they agree with a lot of what Obama is proposing. I find this quite believable; back in 2003 Stuart Butler of the Heritage Foundation, which is supposedly harder-right than AEI, proposed a health care reform consisting of ... drumroll ... an individual mandate coupled with subsidies to make insurance affordable. In short, Obamacare. [... more ...] (Krugman, NYT, March 25, 2010)

    (Still stunned that women were sold down the river just to save Bart Stupak's face.)

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#78)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:04:22 PM EST
    it could be that he thought this bill was as liberal a one as could be passed- given the current state of the GOP can anyone really imagine this bill getting through with Republican approval simply if Romeny backed it? (As for the Clinton Healthcare comparison, well its simple the overton window keeps drifting right- things like this will hopefully help stop that but its not a hugely debatable thing- every major effort at Healthcare Reform has been more conservative than the one that preceded it Truman>Johnson> Nixon-Kennedy> Clinton> Obama its pretty clear line).

    Parent
    Progressives don't believe in HCR (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Yes2Truth on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 09:59:08 AM EST

    They believe in a taxpayer-funded, universal health care system.

    But "progressives" don't (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by lambert on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:25:40 AM EST
    And they're running the show in Versailles.

    If they believed in a taxpayer-funded universal system, then they would have advocated for it. At the very least, they wouldn't have imposed a news blackout on single payer advocates, who do believe in those things.

    Parent

    Which is why I refuse to call myself (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Zorba on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:31:53 AM EST
    a "progressive" ever again.  I'm a liberal.

    Parent
    I'm sorry that the proud and productive history of (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:30:27 PM EST
    progressivism has been hacked and destroyed by these modern day Corporatist running dog lackeys, by these apologists of Obama's conservaDem Corporatism.

    TR was a Progressive. His legacy is trashed by these modern usurpers of the term.

    (I do love that "running dogs" phrase....)

    Parent

    "Running dogs" (none / 0) (#128)
    by Zorba on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:08:21 PM EST
    LOL, jawbone- yes, it's a great phrase.  I was also thinking awhile ago that Teddy Roosevelt would never stand a chance in today's Republican Party.  

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:02:06 PM EST
    You can run, but you can't hide..

    Parent
    Oh, they know (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Zorba on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:02:25 PM EST
    where I am and how I stand.  I belong to a number of organizations that would be considered "leftie" (from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, to environmental groups, to the ACLU, and others).  I'm not trying to hide.  ;-)

    Parent
    Americas Watch (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:25:21 PM EST
    which I think is affiliated with Human Rights Watch, did great work in Guatemala in the 1980s--they got the truth out when Reagan was saying that the Guatemalan dictator was getting a "bum rap on human rights."

    Parent
    My grandfather who was Russian (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:44:33 PM EST
    used to call himself a christian-anarchist, which, in the tradition of Tolstoy and Berdyaev, was a perfectly respectable intellectual-political tradition to attach oneself to several decades ago. Nowadays, if someone publicly designated themselves as such, they'd probably be in danger of being consigned to the "fever swamps" and "lunatic fringe"
    for their strange ideas..You have to be a conservative, liberal-"progressive" or libertarian these days. Pick whats behind curtain A, B or C or risk further "marginalization" from Newsweek magazine. So much for the myth of progress.

    Parent
    Yes, it's hard to be (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by Zorba on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:05:32 PM EST
    anti-war, pro-universal health care, pro human rights (regardless of race, color, religion, sexual orientation, etc), pro- civil liberties for all, and so on nowadays, without being considered "the left of the left."  This country continues to move ever-rightward, Democrats and Republicans both.  I haven't budged a whole heck of a lot, and I doubt I ever will.  If that makes me marginalized, so be it.  I will continue to work for and support causes and candidates who reflect my values and beliefs.

    Parent
    But I would take a look (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:15:26 PM EST
    at gay rights.....Things are changing there....

    And, society has dramatically changed as to women's rights.....Look at any movie from the 1960s....

    The changes may seem slow or imperceptible but they do exist....

    The social/religious conservatives are running out of steam.....Just yesterday, I heard on PBS while driving home that Schuller's Crystal Cathedral and Rick Warren's Saddleback Church are broke.....There will be no Easter Pagent by the Chrystal Cathedral this year, as they try to work out terms with jilted vendors.....Rick Warren put out a desperate SOS for funds and was rescued by additional funds.....perhaps just a function of the bad economy but still.....

     

    Parent

    I find I've found myself moving more leftward, but (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:50:35 PM EST
    it may just seem that way since the Dems have gone all Corporatist and we have this DINO in the presidency.

    I had misgivings about some of Clinton's stands and legislation while he was in office, but I never felt he would completely sell out the working class to support the needs of Big Bidness. I do feel Obama would do that...and is showing us that over and over.

    Obama has made his Corporatist leanings painfully clear, and, as I had feared in the primaries, none would dare hold his feet to the fire, hold him to the principle of the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

    I'm still stunned, however, that is getting away with this channeling of St. Ronnie on steroids.

    Parent

    Progressives (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:42:21 AM EST
    don't have any core values. They're nothing but knee jerkers just like the GOP.

    Parent
    Zzzzzz (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:58:40 PM EST
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:58:03 PM EST
    when they actually can quit apologizing for Obama and making excuses then get back to me. If Obama said tomorrow that we needed to get rid of Social Security don't you think they would go along with it? If you don't, then you need to get with the program. SS privatization is now a "progressive policy"

    Parent
    If both Clinton and the Republicans would have (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:22:01 AM EST
    been happy with this bill in 1993, why didn't it get enacted? I must have missed the great debate over the reasonable progressive Republican alternative to Clintoncare.

    To put it another way, the Republicans did make suggestions this year, but they were bad ones and they went nowhere. In 17 years are the "neo-progressives" going to claim them as progressive reform?

    And I strongly disagree that if Mitt Romney had proposed this now, Republicans would have supported it. He's just plain wrong on that. For one thing, that is a huge IF. Mitt Romney is not anywhere near on board with this, despite the fact that it is like what he had in MA. I don't know what Republicans he is talking about.

    I'm not talking about the Rep amendments (none / 0) (#11)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:23:16 AM EST
    that got put in the bill, but rather their main suggestions that all we needed was tort reform and tax cuts.

    Parent
    Because Bill Kristol (none / 0) (#18)
    by BDB on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:51:39 AM EST
    wrote his famous memo urging the GOP to kill any healthcare reform initiative not on the policy, but on the politics.  The assumption was that passage would be good for Democrats.  It led to the odd spectacle of Dole voting against his own bill.

    Parent
    Same as it ever was (none / 0) (#35)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:36:41 PM EST
    Then from 2000-2006 (none / 0) (#36)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:44:01 PM EST
    I guess it would still have been good for Dems, so that's their excuse? No, I'm sure they had a different one then.

    My point is that I get irritated with calling these proposals 'Republican', as in supported by that party. They were never serious about any major health care system changes. They only throw up alternatives to look serious when they know they will not act on any of them.

    Which makes it doubly bad for Dems to enact them as if they really have secret Republican support.


    Parent

    That's not true. (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by masslib on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:49:21 PM EST
    Do you know where the funds for the great MA experiment came from?  George W. Bush.

    Further, the mandates, the subsidies, the Exchanges, these proposals were hatched up at the Heritage foundation.  Google it.  Finally, the individual mandate was in direct response to Bill Clinton's employer mandate, and Orin Hatch was very serious about it.  You don't like that the Dems passed a Republican proposal.  Fine.  But it doesn't mean Republicans were never serious about these policy ideas.

    Parent

    Wait then (none / 0) (#79)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:05:53 PM EST
    was Clinton's proposal Republican- its pretty clearly to the right of what Nixon wanted in the early 1970s?

    Parent
    Did (none / 0) (#139)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:59:27 PM EST
    Clinton's proposal come out of a right wing think tank?

    Parent
    What difference does it (none / 0) (#149)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:22:19 PM EST
    make where it came from when we're discussing the effects of policy decisions?

    But yes, right wing think tanks are known for being very big on deregulation.

    Parent

    For (none / 0) (#158)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 08:04:20 PM EST
    some reason you guys think that it's okay that Obama's policy comes out of right wing think tanks. I've said all along that he makes bad policy decisions. And you?

    Parent
    That's not true. (none / 0) (#159)
    by masslib on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 08:33:08 PM EST
    Where do you get that?

    Parent
    Whoopie do (5.00 / 8) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:33:08 AM EST
    I'm so excited that the Democratic Party was able to pass Republican "Enrich the Insurance and Pharma Industries" legislation and pass it off as "health care reform."

    I can see future campaign ads by Dem politicians.

    Elect more Democrats so we can "fix" what we f*ucked up in 2010.

    I'm sure that I will donate extensively based on future promises. :-)

    It would be worth (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by lentinel on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:12:49 PM EST
    buying a car in order to display that slogan on a bumper sticker:

    Parent
    What do progressives think? Really? (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by lentinel on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:10:07 PM EST
    Who wants to know?
    Not Obama/Co.
    Not Pelosi and Reid.
    They're deliriously happy over their victory over the republican party. They're singing yes we can. What they can is a mystery.

    I can only agree with MO Blue below:

    I'm so excited that the Democratic Party was able to pass Republican "Enrich the Insurance and Pharma Industries" legislation and pass it off as "health care reform."

    To which I will add that without a public option, this bill should not have been signed. Obama said as much last July. But what he says shouldn't be taken literally or seriously. He likes to blow smoke. And a considerable portion of his devotees enjoy the fumes.

    I also would add that there is the matter of women's reproductive rights - compromised by strange men and the men who like strange men.

    Obama looks as if he thinks he is a winner. Obviously the things that I feel are lacking in the bill are not of consequence to him. Otherwise he would look as if he has work to do. He doesn't.

    No. BTD's question is (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by oldpro on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:26:11 PM EST
    "What do progressives believe..?"

    And that's the problem, isn't it?

    Progressives who stopped thinking and started believing.

    Same old, same old...

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#116)
    by lentinel on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:20:53 PM EST
    Pathetic isn't it?

    And to think that there many lives at stake.
    Literally.


    Parent

    They believe progressive health care plans (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by masslib on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:27:29 PM EST
    should fall to the right of whatever Bill Clinton thinks.  HA!  

    What do progressives believe? (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Well, with respect to the ones holding office, I think the answer is "Whatever they have to to keep collecting campaign contributions and winning elections."

    In the blogosphere, it seems to be, "whatever it is that allows them to keep their access open, the mainstream gigs coming with regularity, improve their chances of being quoted in the mainstream, and stay firmly in place on the pedestal their audiences have placed them on."

    But, don't ask me - I am a liberal.  As near as I can tell, one has to be making actual progress to be considered "progressive," and both the groups I mentioned above aren't doing that for anyone but themselves - and I don't think the progress we need to address the issues we care about is the career-centric kind, is it?

    This progressive believes (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Manuel on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    That, once single payer and a strong public option were dropped, incremental change was inevitable.

    That the centrist nature of this bill should be proclaimed so as to destroy the extremist Republican position.

    That the extreme Republican position succeded in dragging the policy to the right which is why they must be confronted and defeated before we can make greater progress.

    That undoing the rightward tilt of the country for the last thirty years will take some time and a lot of small steps.

    Let's see if I have this correct (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:23:11 PM EST
    That undoing the rightward tilt of the country for the last thirty years will take some time and a lot of small steps
    .

    So the way to do this is for the Democrats to pass what Obama and Pelosi admit is Republican legislation and for everyone to cheer for "great Republican ideas."

    If the legislation is successful, it will confirm that Republicans do have great ideas and if it fails, it will be deemed as a failure of liberal programs.  

    Parent

    Somehow I doubt (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:08:20 PM EST
    if it succeeds it will be credited to Republicans- when you vote en masse against something you once supported (half-hearted nearly 2 decades ago) don't get to take credit. Its like the EPA- created by a Republican but for somereason no one considers the GOP the party of the Enviroment.

    Parent
    Repubs get a win-win-win: They've bloodied Obama's (none / 0) (#106)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:47:51 PM EST
    nose, but did not defeat him or the bill; they got the Repub plan they wanted, albeit with some tidbits of Democratic ideas; and, they have a readymade campaign issue: Unfunded Mandates--They're not just for states any more.

    When they get back in power, they just strip the plan of isn't Repub enough.  And Dems look like the bad guys.

    Right now, people who have insurance are excited about being about to put their grown uninsured children on their plans. However, there are some roadbumps. 1) Six months, or when rules are written; 2) it will cost to add each grown child (one woman reported her plan wanted $500 per child -- NYS already allows this, but up to age #!; and 3) most plans only allow new additions to plans every "open enrollment" period, which is usually once a year. (Info from the Obama RomneyCare friendly Jule Ravner of NPR.)

    The EPA had teeth -- this bill?

    Parent

    Will the Republicans nominate (none / 0) (#112)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:00:47 PM EST
    Romney?  He enacted mandates in Massachusetts, and said in a debate that he favored them on a national basis too. (??)  Another flip-flop?

    I think Pawlenty's stock just went way up....Maybe Huckabee's too.....Lucky for Obama too.  

    Parent

    Romney is being hammered right now by the Right on (none / 0) (#130)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:14:32 PM EST
    his work to enact RomneyCare and how similar it is to ObamaCare. It may be what takes him out in Repub primaries.

    He sure looks the role, but my not get it due to his standing on flip-flops.

    Parent

    There should be no cheering (none / 0) (#64)
    by Manuel on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:40:13 PM EST
    The plan that passed is more "Republican" than it would have been had it not been for the Republican intransigence.  You can't pretend that the distortions from the right has had no effect on the political discourse and MSM coverage.  To establish a lasting influence, we need to win the hearts and minds of independents and moderate Republicans.  Hopefully this plan will do that and not blow up in our face.  If this plan works, however marginally, it should whet the public appetite for more progressive policy not less.  OTOH, the risk that the plan will fail is not insignificant.  Overall, however, we are better off with this legislation than with nothing or with an even more watered down plan.

    Parent
    You post IMO is a complete distortion of (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:01:30 PM EST
    what actually occurred on HCR.

    The public was behind real progressive reform. Hearts and minds of independents and moderate Republicans were already won. Polls on legislation that contained a public option got a majority of support from Democrats and independents and even received the support of approximately 1/3 of Republicans.

    The reason that we have corporate giveaway legislation is because that is the deal that Obama and the Democrats made with the industries which has even been documented by MSM.  

    Parent

    Not the way I see it (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Manuel on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:30:42 PM EST
    The public was behind real progressive reform. Hearts and minds of independents and moderate Republicans were already won.

    That was before the massive outcry and distortion on the right and the "town hall" meetings of last summer.  The support that existed (and still exists) for HCR among independents and moderate Republicans is soft support.  They can be swayed by the sirem song of "socialism", "deficit spending", "bureaucratict death panels", and "unwarranted intrusion of government in people's lives".  In fact, the Republicans are counting on this for the fall elections.

    If that support was as strong as you hold, why would the Republicans embark on their hard line strategy?  I don't think they acted irrationaly.  They hoped to gain politically.

    Parent

    BTW (none / 0) (#74)
    by Manuel on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:36:56 PM EST
    My position is not to say that the Democrats did not make tactical and strategic errors.  They should have acted swiftly and not allowed time for the opposition to organize.  However, I am convinced that, given Congress as it exists, the best we could have hoped for was a weak public option.

    Parent
    No, they really weren't (none / 0) (#83)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:10:45 PM EST
    When you have to parse polls, and throwout conflicting results you can't say the public was solidly behind anything, you can say they were divided, or that your preference had some public support, but solidly behind would tend to suggest that they were consistently in favor of something- and frankly while the public might have been initially in favor of something that support faded as it always has with Healthcare Reform.

    Parent
    Obama took single payer off the table at start- (none / 0) (#100)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:41:50 PM EST
    He kept "negotiating" with himself, granting Repub wishes before they even proposed them.

    My take is he got the bill he wanted, not the plan the country needed and the people wanted.

    Repub instransigence was his political beard, an attempt to cover his rightward leanings from the Dems who believed he was liberal and progressive.

    This plan will work: It will preserve the Big Health Insurance Parasites' viability for most likely the next decade, and it will preserve its profitability. These BHIPs were killing off their host organisms, the purchasers of their product. Continuing without change would have meant single payer was inevitable.  They did not want that outcome.

    Obama has done his job, and the BHIPs will have more time to stay in business and make money. The main part of the plan begins in 2014, four years from now; two years before the mandate fines reach their highest, so that'S 2016; then four years for the BHIPs to suck as much money out of the populace as they possibly can.  

    Their stocks didn't rise for no reason in the past few weeks.

    Parent

    Almost everyone took single payer (none / 0) (#111)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:57:36 PM EST
    off the table from the start......

    Hillary, Edwards and Obama all proposed similar plans, none of which was single payer.....Obama campaigned on a plan that was not single payer.....

    So, after winning the election, for Obama to say that he was now moving to the Left on health care and was proposing single payer would have been a waste of time.....No one would have believed such a threat.....

    A threat has to be "reasonable," plausible, to have any effect.  Fanciful stuff will be discarded.....

    Now, the Public Option is a different story....

    Parent

    Hillary campaigned on Medcare buy-in as first step (none / 0) (#113)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:03:05 PM EST
    to universal coverage.  She campaigned on universal coverage.

    Obama had to be dragged into supporting a public option, universal care, and healthcare as a right.

    He did not mean it and his lack of enthusiasm showed. The only time I saw real enthusiasm from  him was when he talked about digitized medical records. Really. He really, really wants that done.

    Parent

    He was to the right of Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:06:48 PM EST
    on health care.....that should have been clear to most....

    But that was Hillary's signature issue....and as to the only difference articulated between the two during the primary--mandates--looks like she won that one....

    Parent

    Except, ... (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:48:51 PM EST
    ... she was arguing for mandates with a public option.  Kind'uv a big difference.

    Parent
    What about the electorate in '08? (5.00 / 0) (#176)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 05:15:13 AM EST
    Undoing the rightward tilt of the country for the last thirty years will take some time and a lot of small steps.

    Let's not ever forget that in the last GE, the majority of voters were ready and willing to take a giant leap away from the "rightward tilt of the country" - and much of the "country" still supports a liberal Democratic agenda.

    If the President and the Democratic leadership were as forward-thinking as the electorate, the GOP and the lobbyists and the tea partiers would be entirely irrelevant and we could proceed, post haste, with policy that reflects public interests.

    In other words, it's not the electorate of this country who aren't ready for progress - it's mostly the guy they elected to do the job.

    Parent

    Let's see if I have this correct (none / 0) (#47)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:23:23 PM EST
    That undoing the rightward tilt of the country for the last thirty years will take some time and a lot of small steps
    .

    So the way to do this is for the Democrats to pass what Obama and Pelosi admit is Republican legislation and for everyone to cheer for "great Republican ideas."

    If the legislation is successful, it will confirm that Republicans do have great ideas and if it fails, it will be deemed as a failure of liberal programs.  

    Parent

    Sorry For The Double Post (none / 0) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:23:50 PM EST
    As near as I can tell (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Kimberley on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:14:39 PM EST
    "Progressive" is the word that Democratic partisans use to label themselves and they are prepared to publicly "believe" what the Democratic Party tells them to believe.

    That label's kind of a neat psychological trick, when you think about it.

    I mean, they're essentially authoritarian-minded people with a passive individual temperament and a strong preference for some semblance of decency and higher reasoning in the government's character (which is why they're drawn to the Democratic Party).

    From a party perspective, they're great allies.

    And we're as stuck with them as we're stuck with their incredibly ignoble and far more dangerous counterparts in and around the Republican Party.

    I suppose we just have to accept that no cause or logic is appealing enough to mobilize them without a nod in that direction from authority first--and even then, their innate acceptance of social and political gradualism will likely feel like abandonment.

    Expect to see much more of this (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:21:36 PM EST
    in the future.

    YORK (AP) -- AT&T Inc. will take a $1 billion non-cash charge in the first quarter because of the health care overhaul and may cut benefits it offers to current and retired workers.

    The charge is the largest disclosed so far. Earlier this week, AK Steel Corp., Caterpillar Inc., Deere & Co. and Valero Energy announced similar accounting charges, saying the health care law that President Barack Obama signed Tuesday will raise their expenses.

    ...
    The telecommunications company also said it is looking into changing the health care benefits it offers because of the new law. Analysts say retirees could lose the prescription drug coverage provided by their former employers as a result of the overhaul. link


    There's much more of this already (none / 0) (#77)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:53:01 PM EST
    per a story in my morning paper about a presser -- and a slick one, despite being put together fast, so there will be more -- by at least three other huge corporations (Caterpillar was one, I recall) saying similar things.  And saying that the first cuts would come to prescriptions in their pensions.

    There is a movement to point out, as you have -- and CST, I think -- that this bill was for the younger voters.  And this movement is betting that they will not be voters in the midterm elections, not in the numbers in 2008.  It's a safe bet.

    Parent

    Every increase in insurance premiums (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:08:32 PM EST
    and every reduction in benefits will be blamed on this legislation.

    The average person will soon lose whatever enthusiasm they now have for this POS legislation.

    Parent

    Think these might be the companies (none / 0) (#163)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:16:12 PM EST
    AK Steel Corp., Caterpillar Inc., Deere & Co. and Valero Energy.

    Parent
    Yes. I remembered Caterpillar (none / 0) (#164)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:40:35 PM EST
    for a couple of reasons, personal as well as political.  It still is headquartered in Obama's home state of Illinois, I think.  And with a lot of employees there as his seat comes up this year.

    Clever, huh?  

    Parent

    The entire problem (none / 0) (#91)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:23:21 PM EST
    there is the insanely stupid 2003 MMA- it created the subsidy which will now be taxed, and it did it in an amazing dumb way- by not paying for it at all and making the entire bill deficit spending.

    Parent
    This might be a clearer understanding (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:23:25 PM EST
    of what is going on. Same link as posted above.

    White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Thursday that the tax law closed a loophole.

    Under the 2003 Medicare prescription drug program, companies that provide prescription drug benefits for retirees have been able to receive subsidies covering 28 percent of eligible costs. But they could deduct the entire amount they spent on these drug benefits -- including the subsidies -- from their taxable income.

    The new law allows companies to only deduct the 72 percent they spent.

    From a policy perspective, I agree that corporations should not be able to write off money that they do not spend. Of course under the same premise, I object to drug companies overcharging for dual eligible Medicare/Medicaid people which will continue under the deal that Obama made with Pharma.

    From a political perspective, what most people who may lose existing benefits will hear is that they are losing them because of Obama's legislation.

    Parent

    What did the progressives know and when did they (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:22:36 PM EST
    know it?

    I really mean to ask this of the "access" progressives, not those influenced by them.

    Suddenly, the blogosphere and some pundits' columns are filled with all sorts of inside scoop on just how Republican the ObamaCare/RomneyCare bill is.

    All hail Heritage! Or, how Heritage got Obama to get its health insurance plan passed.

    But, as Brad Delong wrote, the Heritage heritage could not be admitted prior to the bills passage bcz then Dems would not have been able to hold their noses long enough to vote for the POS.

    Oh, and AEI told its rightwing commentators to STFU about the Romney-esque nature of the Senate's bill, Obama's BHIP-PPP (Big Health Industry Players' Profit Protection Plan)/RomoneyCare/HCR (High Corporate Returns) legislation.

    Robert Reich said the bill does not come out of the New Deal or the Great Society, but from Republican ideology. No wonder Obama was so full of praise for St.Ronnie in the primaries.

    Obama's legislation comes from an alternative idea, begun under the Eisenhower administration and developed under Nixon, of a market for health care based on private insurers and employers. Eisenhower locked in the tax break for employee health benefits; Nixon pushed prepaid, competing health plans, and urged a requirement that employers cover their employees. Obama applies Nixon's idea and takes it a step further by requiring all Americans to carry health insurance, and giving subsidies to those who need it.

    So don't believe anyone who says Obama's health care legislation marks a swing of the pendulum back toward the Great Society and the New Deal. Obama's health bill is a very conservative piece of legislation, building on a Republican rather than a New Deal foundation. The New Deal foundation would have offered Medicare to all Americans or, at the very least, featured a public insurance option.

    Reich goes on to say he "hopes" something better will come out of this legislation. He hopes, because that's all we have.... With that hope in mind, he calls it, yes, a big deal.

    Mmm, I don't think so. (3.80 / 5) (#3)
    by Dadler on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 09:56:06 AM EST
    The Republican Party has morphed into something that will not support ANYthing like this bill, no matter who would have proposed it.  The Republican Party is entirely bat-sh*t crazy.  I don't think he gets this yet.  I don't think WE fully understand it either.  It is a party of absolute nothingness, almost like an animal chewing its own leg off simply because it THINKS it might be stuck in a trap.  And, let's be honest, the Democrats would've fought this bill if it were proposed by a Republican.  The Democrats don't fight for ANYthing anymore, EVERY, and that has been clear since they marched this country into Iraq like the cowards they are.  

    Also, praising it as Clintonian means what exactly?  Clinton, despite the '93 tax bill, was an abject failure as President because he allowed the seeds of financial disaster to be sown right under his nose.  HE is the one whose administraton should have stopped the derivative madness, nipped it in the bud, when their single brightest team member warned them clearly.  Clinton, for everything I like about the guy, was an inexcusable fool in this vital area.

    Sorry, we can do MUCH better than constantly looking backward at a President who, while decent in many respects, failed miserably to protect the nation economically when he could have.  He kept a charade going.  Perhaps a more progressive charade because of his tax reform, but it was a charade just the same.

    "You glorify the past when the future dries up."

    Krugman (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by CST on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:02:14 AM EST
    has a post that talks about how Republicans have gone off the deep end.

    Which brings me back to my earlier point "the only thing worse than democrats are republicans".  They really have gone off the deep end.  But they did that under Clinton too.

    And I also agree that we should not have been aiming for Clinton.  This was a perfect storm for Dems to push real reform through, overwhelming majorities in both houses, the presidency, and a pretty clear voter mandate coming out of the '08 elections.  Clinton never had that, and Dems blew it.

    Parent

    shoot (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by CST on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:03:03 AM EST
    I meant to link.

    Parent
    I've been thinking about how dangerous (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:38:52 AM EST
    this radicalization of the Republican Party is for this country for a long time.  It is not just that they are radical and dangerous, it is also that meaningful debate has essentially evaporated and I really don't think that that is good for a democracy.

    Parent
    It may be, as Professor Krugman states, (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by KeysDan on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 12:02:25 PM EST
    that "extremists have taken full control of one of our great political parties", but the operable word here is "full". The good old days of that " great political party" seem, in my view, to be based more in nostalgia than reality. Yes, there are individual Republicans that we can point to that have constructive records or made important contributions, such as Jacob Javits, Everett Dirksen or John Chaffey, but the Republican party itself has given us the HUAC, and US Senators such as Karl Mundt and Joseph McCarthy. The party's Presidential candidate Barry Goldwater anchored his campaign on the clarion call that "extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." The constitution was almost fatally assaulted by the Nixon administration (and VP Agnew resigned after nolo contendere on bribery)--and the party was given a chance to start over with an accidental president, a price the party that vouched for these crooks, never really paid the right price for.  And, who could forget that keynoter of the 1992 Republican convention, Pat Buchanan and his legendary "Cultural Wars" speech (not to mention that other Pat, the preacher Robertson). The silent majority of the Reverend Falwell strongly influenced the workings of the Republican party.  Gingrich's Contract for America and his engineering of the  government "train wreck" would also seem to be an example of institutionalized  extremism by no less than the Speaker of the House.  These and other examples seem to be ample to demonstrate the futility of bipartisanship and hopes for dealing with  the party that long ago should have gone the way of the Whigs.  

    Parent
    I wouldn't (none / 0) (#84)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:12:54 PM EST
    regard Clinton as an abject failure but in light of the economic collapses of the early and late 00s it is probably smart to reasess his status- he did aid and abet the de-regulation mania that destablized everything and that has to be accounted.

    Parent
    That take is way too casual. (none / 0) (#95)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:30:37 PM EST
    Take Enron, for example. If it hadn't been for changes in accounting law passed in 1995 by a Republican Congress, Arthur Andersen's funny accounting would not have been possible.
    Clinton was vehemently opposed to that bill---IIRC correctly he vetoed it twice.
    There are other examples.
    It's quite fair to say that Clinton was  a free market type and in favor of globalization, but by no means was he crazy about deregulation, not to the extent Republicans were.

    Parent
    not as crazy about (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:47:03 PM EST
    deregulation as the Republicans. That's like saying the christian-zionists aren't as crazy as Al Queda.

    We've got to be able to start doing better than not-as-nuts-as-Newt Gingrich.

    Parent

    I don't think Clinton was nuts (none / 0) (#108)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:50:25 PM EST
    at all on the subject of deregulation, so I don't like your analogy at all.
    We've got to be able to start doing better than arguing based on content free sound bites.

    Parent
    Are you just filtering (3.50 / 2) (#129)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:10:10 PM EST
    out any of the posts that point out the rather obvious historical fact that Clinton bought the whole program of Wall St deregulation via his advisers Greenspan, Rubin et al?

    Im wondering if maybe you have a Bill = Hillary "soundbite" in your unconscious which is impeding your objectivity in this area.

    Parent

    Oh no (none / 0) (#104)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:44:55 PM EST
    not to the same degree- but things like making Rand disciple Alan Greenspan the face of the Administration economically now look a bit questionable.

    Parent
    How, ... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:53:39 PM EST
    ... precisely?

    Clinton, despite the '93 tax bill, was an abject failure as President because he allowed the seeds of financial disaster to be sown right under his nose.  HE is the one whose administration should have stopped the derivative madness, nipped it in the bud, when their single brightest team member warned them clearly.  Clinton, for everything I like about the guy, was an inexcusable fool in this vital area.

    CFMA?  GLB?  I hope not.  That's been debunked so many times it's too funny to even address.

    Parent

    Under The Bus (1.20 / 5) (#45)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:19:04 PM EST
    Considering that those who supported Hillary during the primaries promising never to vote for Obama have repeatedly claimed to be thrown under the bus, I find it odd that they would now want to throw (or pull, drag, yank..) progressives who voted for Obama under the bus.

    Must be getting pretty crowded down there.... lol

    Identity politics seem to be as fluid as politician's promises. Oh well guess the pols are representative after all..

    Evidence? Based on what (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:31:45 PM EST
    in this post?

    Parent
    Here, For Example (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:51:18 PM EST
    What do progressives believe? (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Well, with respect to the ones holding office, I think the answer is "Whatever they have to to keep collecting campaign contributions and winning elections."
    In the blogosphere, it seems to be, "whatever it is that allows them to keep their access open, the mainstream gigs coming with regularity, improve their chances of being quoted in the mainstream, and stay firmly in place on the pedestal their audiences have placed them on."

    But, don't ask me - I am a liberal..... [emphasis mine]



    Parent
    So, the fact that I'm a liberal relates (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:58:00 PM EST
    to Hillary and the primaries and this alleged pulling-progressives-under-the-bus how, exactly?

    By making the "don't ask me, I'm a liberal" comment, I was stating that I can only guess what it is that so-called progressives believe in, and my comments about those holding office and those in the blogosphere are based on what we've seen and heard over the last couple of years.

    Nowhere did I call out Obama by name; "with respect to those holding office" is a group that is much larger than one.  The blogosphere group was not meant to call out commenters, but those blog owners who have been riding the progressive gravy train for a long time.

    I don't think there's anything unclear about my original comment; I shouldn't have to explain it all over again just because you have a tendency to see everything in terms of Hillary, the primaries and what "some" Hillary supporters allededly said or promised or something.  Lately, it seems that if you can find all the letters that form the name "Hillary" in a comment, you feel justified to invoke her in some "take that!" kind of way.

    I'm actually surprised you haven't accused me of not being a liberal because I supported Hillary and she's not a liberal, or some such thing, but I suppose I have that to look forward to as you ponder and parse whatever I write in hopes of "getting" me somehow.

    [Yawn...]

    Parent

    Utter BS (none / 0) (#103)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:44:53 PM EST
    Let's see now, your definition of "so-called progressives", and I do note that you have now qualified the term progressive, means:

    those who supported Obama, no?

    Parent

    1. Then reply to that comment (none / 0) (#56)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:00:49 PM EST
    unless trying to be so unclear here.  That's how this blog is formatted.  When you do so, then the rest of us may be able to better see whether there is merit to your concern in that context.

    As your comment stands, standing alone so looking like it is in reply to BTD, you may want to apologize to him for implicitly suggesting that he is the one pulling Obama under some bus you see.

    Parent

    Meant To (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:10:06 PM EST
    But it was the last comment in the thread when I replied, and I mistook the comment box for the reply box, as it was right under the comment...

    I decided not to amend it when I noticed (right after I pushed post) because, I thought it responded to the general thread, and thought an oblique response to Anne would be appropriate considering Jeralyn suggested, the other day, that Anne and I chill out.

    Parent

    cx: 2. As to your comment, etc. (none / 0) (#57)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:03:33 PM EST
    (forgot to number second point).  Plus:

    3.  Why not comment on the post, not that comment?  What do you think about the merits of the post?

    Parent

    I Agree 100% (none / 0) (#61)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:24:06 PM EST
    Although I think that the bill is a good thing. I think that Obama's Executive order is at most insulting, but has zero effect on anything. It was an empty gesture that allowed some political face saving, imo.

    And I do not think that, given the voters rightward shift post radical right BushCo, anything more progressive would have passed. I see the bill as a well placed foot in the door.

    Most Americans do not think care about long term problems, and most do not care about Health Care Reform as they are covered, and take for granted that the insurance companies are here to stay, albeit hated.

    I think that Obama did a good job, as he saw HCR as imperative, and knew that most americans are not so concerned about anything but now. That is leading, imo.

    As far as NOW goes, yes the bill stinks from a progressive standpoint, but their focus on the EO is pandering, imo. Pandering because it is necessary for them to regain the trust of those ex-supporters who lost faith in the organization because NOW supported Obama.

    Parent

    Here is a concern of mine (none / 0) (#63)
    by lilburro on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:33:51 PM EST
    And I do not think that, given the voters rightward shift post radical right BushCo, anything more progressive would have passed. I see the bill as a well placed foot in the door.

    While I see the point, and it does sort of feel true, to me that sounds a lot like "America is a center-right nation."  I think the Left has been fighting against that meme for a really long time and if progressives want to make that excuse for progressive disappointments, yikes.  So personally, I am looking for a different explanation as to why the bill turned out the way it did.

    Parent

    My Take (none / 0) (#90)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:22:34 PM EST
    Is that is has to do with our Representatives and their Representatives. I think that there are more of their reps. Gilibrand is a good case in point for our side, she moved to the left in order to keep her constituents happy.

    Mostly I believe that the formulaic (fascist) fearmongering from BushCo broke the country's natural movement to the left that was building pre Clinton. Too many people got scared in the last 8 years and bought the crap that there are those who want to take our Freedoms away. Turns out it was only BushCo and his corporate sponsors. It takes a little while for those folks to regain their senses. In any case, we have a national health care plan in place, which is quite historic, imo.

    I believe that the younger demographic shift will regain the momentum and start picking up the shift to the left..  But what do I know, I live on a small island off the coast of america.

    Maybe it is true that the Progressives/Liberals do not know how much bargaining power they have and blew it. Hard to tell. From where I sit, it seems that things played out in a way that was reflective of the voters. We will see what happens in Nov.

    Parent

    This comment (none / 0) (#75)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:47:18 PM EST
    is more interesting.

    We disagree on some parts -- that foot in the door is going to tingle for a long time, as it falls asleep from lack of movement, so another foot attached to a far stronger president or Congressperson is going to have to come along to kick that door open.

    As for pandering, politically motivated organizations will be politically motivated organizations -- and at least some organization went on record about problems in the EO that you do not see, I think.  See the NOW statement (in its entirety; some links go to edited versions that miss the important point about the conscience clause, which takes the EO beyond what a lot of people who dismiss it may realize).

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#92)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:29:05 PM EST
    I had read the whole NOW statement, and it is quite balanced. Although, I do think that the consciously placed red meat was the EO, and I would have been less critical of the empty gesture, had they bothered to mention the Hyde amendment.

    Tactically they did the right thing, even if it was, imo, dishonest.

    Parent

    Uh, better reread it -- Hyde Amendment (none / 0) (#123)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:43:12 PM EST
    certainly is mentioned, and more than that.

    Again, as noted above, there may be need to be sure to not find one of the excerpted versions out there.  As your president said so well, see the website.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#136)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:56:15 PM EST
    You are correct, It does mention the Hyde Amendment, but goes on to say that the EO helps cement the misconception that it is settled law.

    I do not get that part at all. The EO's function is to state that the Hyde amendment will be enforced in all aspects of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The EO in itself it appears to be totally dependent on the Hyde amendment's existence, iow, no Hyde amendment, no EO.

    Not sure why anyone who would be interested in the policy issues around abortion, would assume that the Hyde amendment is permanent. Also the exaggerated language about a sweeping anti-abortion provision, seem overdone, imo, but good for fundraising.

    The only way this bill could have changed the status quo regarding abortion services and access in America would be to force states to provide free access for abortion services every 100 square miles, imo.

    Abortion in america is a class issue more than a woman's issue, imo. Anyone who has access to the internet can get abortion pills without a prescription for $65. It appears to me that the only women in the US that are excluded from getting an abortion are women living in extreme poverty. Of course there are women who are subjugated by religious freaks, but that goes for men as well.

    I think that shifting the dialogue to income equality along class and race lines would do more for abortion services access than any law, imo.

    And yes, I do find it insulting and sexist, that this is even an issue. And that Stupak, Hyde, and all the other religious nut jobs have the balls to enforce their regressive views on any women. It is none of their business and absurdly overreaching.

    Parent

    Well, there is the little matter of (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:29:25 PM EST
    the Conscience Clause part of that EO:

    Under the Act, longstanding Federal laws to protect conscience (such as the Church Amendment, 42 U.S.C. §300a-7, and the Weldon Amendment, Pub. L. No. 111-8, §508(d)(1) (2009)) remain intact and new protections prohibit discrimination against health care facilities and health care providers because of an unwillingness to provide, pay for, provide coverage of, or refer for abortions.

    Thank you, Mr. President.

    And, while not part of the EO, it should be noted that (my bold):

    03.23.10 - Today, the Center for Reproductive Rights calls on the Food and Drug Administration to finally follow a federal court's order and make the morning-after pill available without a prescription to all ages. One year ago today, a New York federal court found that the FDA's previous decisions around over-the-counter access to emergency contraception were based in politics and ideology, not science. The court ordered the agency to go back and consider making the drug available to all ages. However, to date no progress has been made on that front.

    "This past weekend, the White House turned its back on women, sanctioning a cruel and unjust federal policy that denies poor women across the country access to medically necessary abortions. Given the ground that women lost in the healthcare debate over access to abortion, it is now even more important that the administration step up its efforts to increase access to contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancies," said Nancy Northup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights. "The Obama Administration made a promise to restore scientific integrity to federal agencies. The FDA's continued inaction on decisions that were clearly made with a political agenda in mind are simply unacceptable."

    So, what's up with that?  Why hasn't there been any progress?

    When one looks at these things in isolation, it is so much easier to say "move along, nothing to see here," but when taken as a whole, it is hard not to see the general agreement with restricting a woman's right to have dominion over her own body.

    I don't know why anyone is surprised that this is where things are; it has been obvious for some time that the president just doesn't trust us to make our own decisions.

    Parent

    What's Up With That? (none / 0) (#162)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 09:27:52 PM EST
    Why hasn't there been any progress?

    Because the american people are ok with Church Amendment, 42 U.S.C. §300a-7, and the Weldon Amendment, Pub. L. No. 111-8, §508(d)(1) (2009)).

    Did Obama add laws? No. If these laws are and the Hyde amendment are repealed the EO is essentially void.

    This would be akin to an EO also saying that  Title VII of the Civil Rights Act applies to all health clinics and hospitals covered under the Affordable Health Care for America Act.

    Since that law was not one of the wrenches the conservatives tried to use to derail the HCR, Obama did not need to add that language to his EO.

    Parent

    Off topic, nonsensical and (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:45:02 PM EST
    obsessive.
    Who can't forget the primaries again?
    Oh yeah, it's Hillary supporters---you know, Squeaky and a couple others.
    Geez, give it a rest.


    Parent
    Who? (1.66 / 3) (#55)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:53:31 PM EST
    I guess the ones who were once progressives and now liberals. If you do not think that this has anything to do with those who voted for Hillary and chose not to vote for Obama, you are in serious denial, or something worse.

    Parent
    Sometimes I think that (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:15:15 PM EST
    you have some intelligence and insight.
    Those feelings are completely quashed when I read comments like your last two.
    If you don't understand the difference between a politician and his movement pitting various identity groups against each other---calling some people racist, cozying up to sexists and anti-gay politicians---versus BTD and others decrying the misuse of the label "progressive",
    then you really are stupid. Yes, that's against blog policy, but it needs to be said.
    I can't think of a comment of yours that contains the words "Hillary" and "primaries"
    that shouldn't have been aborted.
    Some of your other comments are ok, sometimes, but man you're nutso on this topic.

    Time to play some piano.

    Parent

    Case In Point (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:26:29 PM EST
    Question:

    Who can't forget the primaries again?

    Answer:

    If you don't understand the difference between a politician and his movement pitting various identity groups against each other---calling some people racist, cozying up to sexists and anti-gay politicians---versus BTD and others decrying the misuse of the label "progressive",
    then you really are stupid.


    Parent
    You brought up identity politics (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:33:28 PM EST
    Don't pretend you don't know what that means in the context of the primaries (which you brought up as well).
    The point is, true or false, the accusations about the Obama campaign are just totally different from Anne's comment about being a liberal, or BTD's post on progressives.
    Lumping them all together as "identity polics" is odd, to say the least.


    Parent
    I Was Responding To Anne's COmment (1.00 / 1) (#101)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:42:16 PM EST
    And believe that embracing "liberal" and throwing "progressive" under the bus, it is code having only to do with the primaries.

    Parent
    So, now stating what I think progressives (5.00 / 5) (#125)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:48:03 PM EST
    believe is throwing them under the bus?  What bus?  Who's driving this vehicle?  If progressives support Obama and his policies and his health reform legislation, aren't they on the bus?  I don't think liberals even have a bus - we barely even have a bicycle at this stage, and if we ran over a progressive with it, it might be more painful for the liberal.

    I don't write in code, squeaky; what I think and what I believe is right there, in clear and understandable language.  Which is not to say that if someone wasn't sure, he or she couldn't ask an actual question, like, "so, are you saying that..." or "did you mean that...?" and there could be an actual discussion that might lead to a better understanding of where people are, but you don't ask questions, you just make declarations of what other people's comments mean, and you do it regardless of how many times you are corrected.

    Why?  You aren't winning any arguments that way, but maybe that's not your intent; maybe you just enjoy accusing people of saying things they didn't say, and meaning things they didn't mean because it feeds your Hillary/primaries fetish/obsession.  That doesn't diminish me, or others you do this with, but it does make you look small and petty and mean; Dale Carnegie would flunk you out of his course, lol.

    [and now, we will get some samples of what squeaky considers my small and petty and mean comments...I have made them out of sheer frustration...good god, will you just let it go?]

    Parent

    Amnesia? (1.00 / 2) (#148)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:15:43 PM EST
    What bus?

    This bus:

    Google Results 1 - 10 of about 2,000 from talkleft.com for under the bus. (0.23 seconds)

    As for claiming to be part of the Straight Talk Express I call BS:

    What do progressives believe?

    Considering your answers, it is clear that you are not referring to the term progressives, as most would understand the term, you are using the term to refer to people who believe Obama is the second coming. That is code, just as much as "Welfare Queen" is code for poor black women. If you do not like the term code, well dogwhistle is interchangeable.

    Parent

    Only in your world, squeaky... (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:40:16 PM EST
    only in your world.

    I've spelled it out more than a few times; if you have that much trouble with plain English, well, I can't help you.

    The liberals aren't driving the bus, Obama is; the progressives are along for the ride.  You are mistaken about who is under the bus, dear, but maybe if you did something about your Hillary obsession, you could see that.

    But, bless your heart for trying to contort yourself into positions I didn't think were humanly possible.  Good for you!

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#154)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:49:41 PM EST
    You have a very special definition of Progressive, unique to you, or if it is shared by an extremely small group of discontents it is a dogwhistle.

    A larger group of english speaking people see little difference between progressives and liberals although there is some consensus about the subtle differences:

    American progressives tend to support interventionist economics: they advocate progressive taxation and oppose the growing influence of corporations. Progressives are in agreement on an international scale with left-liberalism in that they support organized labor and trade unions, they usually wish to introduce a living wage, and they often support the creation of a universal health care system. Yet progressives tend to be more concerned with environmentalism than mainstream liberals[citation needed], and are often more skeptical of the government, positioning themselves as whistleblowers and advocates of governmental reform. In the United States, liberals and progressives are often conflated, and in general are the primary voters of the Democratic Party which has a "large tent" policy, combining similar if not congruent ideologies into large voting blocs. Many progressives also support the Green Party or local parties such as the Vermont Progressive Party. In Canada, liberals usually support the national Liberal Party while progressives usually support the New Democratic Party, which usually dominates provincial politics on the coasts.

    Much more at Wikopedia

    Although I imagine you believe the Obama "progressive" conspiracy has infiltrated Wikopedia.

    Parent

    In my case, the term "progressive" (none / 0) (#174)
    by shoephone on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 07:36:07 PM EST
    doesn't even apply to me. I've never referred to myself as a progressive. I've always referred to myself as a liberal. Some of us aren't afraid of that word.

    You sure do like to invite spats, though.

    Parent

    My World? (none / 0) (#165)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 03:26:37 PM EST
    Another Progressive:

    Views: He is against the health care bill, and wants Medicare for all. He is against the dual wars ("I will not vote for a single penny to continue either war"). He wants to increase the minimum wage immediately to $10 an hour and see it quickly reach $15 to $20. He wants a stronger labor movement. ("People say you're antibusiness. I'm pro-business because I want jobs. What I'm against is foolishness.") He wants a tax on every transaction on Wall Street. He supports gay marriage and gun control....

    ...Tim Carpenter, the national director of Progressive Democrats of America, said, "His message is already resonating with the progressive community."

    Jothanin Tasani

    Although I am sure that you are fed up with him too.... good cause for you, I guess, because he committed liberal blasphemy  by running against St Hillary.

    Parent

    Are you incapable of asking a direct (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by Anne on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 05:53:37 PM EST
    question, as in "So, what do you think of Jonathan Tasini?  He calls himself a progressive - do you think his views are more in line with your own?  And if so, how do you square not wanting to be associated with the term 'progressive' with a guy who seems to be running on positions you would call 'liberal?'"

    That's how normal people discuss things - people not looking for a fight; they ask each other questions, listen to the answers and hash out the finer points.

    Instead, you choose that garbage you ended your comment with, that once again invokes Hillary, and is based on assumptions you are not qualified to make.

    Get help, please.  Your Hillary obsession is a sickness.


    Parent

    Pot or Kettle? Once Again (none / 0) (#169)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 06:11:18 PM EST
    Instead, you choose that garbage you ended your comment with

    You are making a habit of this:

    But, bless your heart for trying to contort yourself into positions I didn't think were humanly possible.  Good for you!

    Hard to see because a log is stuck in your eye this time ?

    Parent

    "St. Hillary"? (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by Yman on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 07:00:22 PM EST
    You keep trying to make those same, lame attempts at insulting people, but there's no comparison.  Hillary supporters weren't fainting if they got too close to her like a good, old-fashioned revival meeting.  They weren't the ones asking (seriously) if he's some type of transcendent, spiritual "Lightworker".

    But keep it up ...

    ... it's good for a laugh.

    Parent

    We're wasting our time, Yman; (none / 0) (#173)
    by Anne on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 07:21:23 PM EST
    time and energy.

    Time to resolve to ignore the never-ending nonsense.

    Parent

    Followers are all the same (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 04:35:21 PM EST
    Whoever the mommy or daddy figure is that they've given their devotion to.

    St Hillary: I'd say that that's a fairly apropos characterization of the attitude of a few here..

    Parent

    And I'd say it's ridiculous (none / 0) (#183)
    by Yman on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 06:45:34 PM EST
    That was easy.

    Parent
    Time to post recipes, IMO (none / 0) (#175)
    by observed on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 11:06:53 PM EST
    I don't know (none / 0) (#179)
    by Yman on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 03:26:04 PM EST
    I understand why you would say that, but I think I'll keep at it.

    Although the recipes idea does sound good ...

    Parent

    That's Funny (none / 0) (#184)
    by daring grace on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 07:20:43 PM EST
    My first grade teacher was a nun named Sister St. Hilary...think all the Roman Catholic Sts. Hilary were men, though.

    Parent
    No, actually, quite a few here (none / 0) (#121)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:33:51 PM EST
    (including me, so I recall this well) debated and discarded the "progressive" label for a long time, based on questionable actions by some members of Congress given that label for years -- members who have not consistently lived up to it for years now in some of their votes.  (Case in point: Feingold.)

    Parent
    Ding, ding, ding! (none / 0) (#177)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 05:31:09 AM EST
    Your comment to Squeaky:
    Sometimes I think you have some intelligence and insight. Those feelings are completely quashed when I read comments like your last two.

    I've often wondered if Squeaky's comments aren't being written by more than one person.

    Parent

    Busted (none / 0) (#178)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 06:00:45 AM EST
    OK, I confess, we are a committee. Segue quonem ursus equant abliss kennsu yallum.  

    Parent
    So Progressives (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:31:05 PM EST
    are Obama supporters and Liberals are the righteous ones?

    And I thought the difference was age:  over 50, Liberal; under, Progressive.

    Parent

    Speaking only for myself, I know (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:07:51 PM EST
    that I am a liberal and that I have come to loathe the term "progressive;" there may have been a time when the conventional wisdom was that the two terms were interchangeable, but based on what progressives have done and not done over the last three or four years, I don't believe that is any longer the case.  Progressives seem to have taken over the party, though, and so I no longer feel part of something that wants what I want.

    The media and the right-wing think there is equivalence in the labels, but the media isn't looking to work hard enough, and probably just doesn't care enough, to parse the difference in the labeling - you know, to examine where people stand on issues and where those stands fall on the spectrum.

    I think a lot of liberals supported Obama, because they either (1) believed the media hype that he was one, (2) saw Obama as the lesser of two evils, (3) thought anyone with a (D) was better than anyone with an (R), (4) sensed Obama was right of center, but believed he could be pushed left, (5) hoped Congress would be able to move him left by essentially forcing him to sign left-of-center legislation, (6) had no idea they were voting for someone who would extend and give credibility to many of the awful Bush policies they thought a Democrat would put a stop to, (7) didn't bother to read or research his record, and so on.  You get the idea.   Liberals who voted for Obama may have, in fact, done what the so-called progressives in Congress did with respect to the health reform bill: traded away a principle here and a principle there for the bigger picture.  It was a gamble that looks like it isn't going to pay off; there is no shame in doing what one thought was the right thing, but there is not much to be gained by denying that it's turning out the way they thought it would.

    The longer Obama stays in this rightward-leaning niche, the more obvious it becomes to liberals that he is not one, and doesn't have much interest in governing from the left, and so, liberals have a choice to make.  Some will choose to stick with him, in hopes that eventually, he will improve; others will abandon him and ponder what the heck they're going to do now.

    I don't feel righteous about what I believe as much as I stand by what I believe, and don't think I should abandon my beliefs to be part of some movement, or so that I can feel or think I am getting with the popular program.  Does that make me a purist?  Someone who's willing to cut off her nose to spite her face?  Well, since I'm not getting to stand in the well of the Senate, or on the House floor and cast a vote, whatever it is I think and whatever position I believe is the right one, pretty much doesn't matter.  And it's increasingly clear that it doesn't matter to those who do cast those votes what we are asking for; they are acting for reasons I believe are rooted in self-interest.

    Think of that what you will.


    Parent

    It would appear there are no Liberals (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:29:17 PM EST
    in Congress--only Progressives, Conservatives and Republicans......

    There may be a Liberal or two that voted against the Health Care Bill.....but who?  Pro-life Lynch?  Don't think so....

    But, I guess, even Kucinich is a Progressive....Jim McGovern, Barbara Lee--Progressives all.....No one is good enough to be a "Liberal."  All the Progressives in Congress are corrupt, cowardly, craven.

    This is just an artificial, divisive rhetorical gimmick.....Good grief....

    Parent

    I'm beginning to wonder (none / 0) (#142)
    by christinep on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:01:49 PM EST
    about the worth of throwing back & forth definitions (our own and others) of "progressive." I've always considered myself a liberal...and, still do and still say it proudly. The more recent use of the word "progressive" struck me as a term in search of a meaning. Its ok, tho. But, again, it may be circular to spend too much time discussing, debating who is more progressive (or more liberal.) If one gets too much into it--and this is not directed to you in any way MKS--it starts to sound like a purity discussion aka the various strata of conservatives.  It can become a dodge as is the case with too much adherence to any ism. Ah well.

    Parent
    Progressive did have a meaning (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:11:57 PM EST
    But people started using it because they became afraid to call themselves liberals.
    I would say Democrats started losing battles starting with Reagan precisely because they let Republicans turn "liberal" into an epithet.

    Parent
    Only use the word "liberal" (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 08:03:48 PM EST
    in a sentence bookended with other words that everyone agrees connote something bad, like "criminals", "terrorists", "perverts", "traitors". It's the informational equivalent of aversion therapy directed at a mass audience.

    And, before you know it, many people are reacting to the sound of the word "liberal" almost the way that character in Clockwork Orange was trained to respond to certain images.

    No one said the Rethugs (take that!) didnt have certain animal cunning when it comes getting organized and getting their message out there.  

    Parent

    Bastardization of the language (none / 0) (#152)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:39:53 PM EST
    Its understandable (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:48:22 PM EST
    it is however the same decision the left made in large part after being hosed by Clinton- they decided to standup to a continuation of the same and voted against Gore (for Nader) because many believed that Gore wasn't all the different from Bush- one would hope 8 years of Bush would show people that a Center-Right Democrat is very, very different than a hard-right Republican.

    Parent
    How were they "hosed" ... (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:59:30 PM EST
    ... by Clinton?  The very things you complain about most when it comes to Clinton (welfare reform. death penalty, free trade) are things he ran on when he campaigned for the nomination.

    I mean, ...

    ... it's not like he promised a public option on HCR, then flip-flopped.  It's not like he ridiculed mandates, then embraced them.  It's not like he promised to reform NAFTA, then walked away, etc., etc., etc. ....

    Parent

    "Hosed" (none / 0) (#167)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 04:38:38 PM EST
    as in, further alienated from the mainstream Democratic party by a candidate who made kowtowing to the right wing part of his platform.

    Parent
    If they were "hosed", ... (none / 0) (#171)
    by Yman on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 06:48:19 PM EST
    ... they have only themselves to blame for expecting Clinton to do something other than what he promised during his campaign.  Of course, after Obama's first year, ...

    ... I could understand why they'd be surprised by that.

    Parent

    Obama is center-left (none / 0) (#115)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:11:05 PM EST
    akin to Bill Clinton.....Liberals or Progressives will be disappointed in both....

    But "Liberals" can have sway if they don't damage their credibility by saying the whole lot in Washingon is just like the conservatives....

    Parent

    Obama is center right, more like (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 06:55:12 PM EST
    Nixon.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#143)
    by christinep on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:03:41 PM EST
    Closer to Reagan? (none / 0) (#156)
    by observed on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:59:10 PM EST
    Funny, I remember (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:14:32 PM EST
    when 'progressive" used to mean MORE left than "liberal". Now, because we must all bow to the blogosphere noise machine's new abridged dictionary of political terms, it apparently only means Obama supporter and cant mean anything else; history be damned. How did this get decided?

    So, is this new definition supposed to be an attack on Obama, or "progressives" or both?

    Parent

    What are you babbling about now? (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 02:13:43 PM EST
    BTD's post has nothing to do with whatever point you're trying (and failing) to make.  If you have some kind of issue trying to read between the invisible lines of Anne's post, maybe you want to respond to her post.  Otherwise, someone might get the idea you're just just trolling for yet another argument.  

    Funny how those who complain the loudest about those who "can't let go of the primary" are the same people who continue to bring it up.

    BTW - With all the progressives Obama's thrown under the bus this past year, of course there's no room under there.

    Parent

    Was the 1993 Republican HCR bill Clintonian? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dan the Man on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:05:12 AM EST
    If 1)the Obama HCR bill is Clintonian and
    2)the Obama HCR bill is more similar to the 1993 Senate Republican HCR bill than the 1993 Clinton bill, then

    1. Doesn't that mean the 1993 Senate Republican HCR bill was also Clintonian?
    2. And doesn't that mean the 1993 Senate Republican HCR bill "achieves liberal ends through market means" just like the Obama HCR bill does also?  So the 1993 Senate Republican HCR bill was sort of liberal?


    And (3) the compromise (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:42:02 AM EST
    is not Clintonian.  I do not see him signing the  executive order.

    Parent
    Clinton (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:03:21 AM EST
    or Ms. Clinton would likely have been burned at the stake by progressives for this whole bill.

    (and rightly so if they were responsible for it, btw).

    Parent

    Yes, because (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:07:36 AM EST
    that was when the major women's organizations were progressive and had not yet been neutered by the old game (see: late 19th and early 20th centuries) played again in pitting race against gender.  

    NOW's new president is rehabilitating that group with the statement on the EO, but not soon enough.

    Parent

    Not sure (none / 0) (#86)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:15:33 PM EST
    the Bill doesn't seem to get much flack for Welfare reform- which was essentially the dismantling of one the pillars of the great society.

    Parent
    Maybe because ... (none / 0) (#141)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:01:16 PM EST
    ... he promised to do it during his campaign, and it had broad support among Democrats and Republicans.

    Parent
    Not sure about that. Thinking DADT. (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:10:09 PM EST
    The test is not what Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:14:01 PM EST
    would have done but what pushback he would have faced.  Liberal women's organizations were in a far better position to push back then than gay organizations then.

    Clinton could not have gotten away with this Jane Crow law.  He also was not elected with a majority and needed every Dem vote -- primarily Dem women -- for re-election.  Obama can diss Dem women (apparently, at least that's what Axelrove sees).

    Parent

    Liberal women's organizations make (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:16:34 PM EST
    noise after the fact now.

    Parent
    Yep. (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:30:13 PM EST
    As noted above, NOW's statement is too little, too late.

    But it is an interesting sign, a possible harbinger worth watching.  Not that the White House will watch, because NOW, et al., lost their respect as well as ours.

    I wonder whether its board and other boards got stacked with dilettantes in recent years.  Career women, serious women, know that it doesn't matter if the guys like you.  It's best if they respect you.  But it's sufficient if they fear you.

    Bill Clinton did respect the organizations then, I think.  But even if not, he needed them more than they needed him, so he had to fear them.

    Parent

    The voice and resolve of Hillary Clinton (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:39:29 PM EST
    probably influenced him more than NOW.

    Parent
    Hard to say. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:48:48 PM EST
    Certainly, in many ways.  But she was one vote.  And he would need a lot of votes.

    And she could not speak out to pull a lot of votes with her.  I do suspect that that she could have had a message sent to others who could speak out, if needed, i.e., if there was a chance that Bill Clinton would pull an Obama on this one.

    (Interesting to think about whether Michelle Obama has built similar connections to get a message out to . . . which groups?)

    Parent

    If she has (none / 0) (#68)
    by CST on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:11:41 PM EST
    I think we know which groups that would be, and they probably aren't the same as Hillary.  Barack was always a bit of a mixed bag.  But there is no doubt in my mind that Michelle's people are in the black community.  And I wouldn't be surprised to learn she has reached out.

    Parent
    I suspect so, too -- (none / 0) (#76)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:49:09 PM EST
    and that may be useful to him in assuaging anger from that community about the economy.  I read and hear unhappiness, but it seems to go nowhere.

    Parent
    Needed the and feared them (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:22:20 PM EST
    the way the Democratic party used to feel about organized labor, before it started needing and fearing Goldman Sachs more.

    Which, again, started way before 2008.

    If the (imaginary) golden Age of Clinton is really the best we can hope for (talk about "progressive" settling for), we might as well throw in the towel now.

    Parent

    I think the women's organizations (none / 0) (#102)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:43:50 PM EST
    wanted to make sure Obama knew they were still out there--in advance of the next Supreme Court pick....

    They seem to largely have given Obama a bye on health care.....their opposition was muted and not well-publicized--until after the bill passed.

    Parent

    Oh c'mon (none / 0) (#87)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:19:55 PM EST
    let's not try and pretend Clinton was something he wasn't the man was a center-right president, much like Obama- honestly, for those who strongly dispute this what is Clinton's lasting legacy in the way that Medicare/Medicaid and the Civil Rights Act are LBJs, or Social Security is FDRs? His 1993 budget? It was good and progressive but long-term- it featured a reworking of the tax structure that lasted roughly 7 years- personally I come up with two things- giving SCHIP federal support, and Welfare Reform- the latter of which is center-right at best.

    Parent
    It's that psychological (none / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:30:44 PM EST
    conflation again, as in, we've made the leap and convinced ourselves that Hillary was THE enlightened leader this country's been waiting for, so Bill must've been it too. Even if he wasnt.

    Emotionally based historical revisionism at it's best.

    Parent

    I don't get it (none / 0) (#109)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:50:37 PM EST
    did people suddenly forget things like Greenspan, Welfare Reform, expansion of the Death Penalty, etc. ?

    Parent
    That "conflation" only occurs ... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:04:49 PM EST
    ... in the minds of the Clinton-haters, who looooooove their own "emotionally based historical revisionism".

    Parent
    Yes I also "hate" (none / 0) (#151)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:35:29 PM EST
    L Ron Hubbard and America..according to some hysterics.

    Parent
    "Hysterics" (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:58:49 PM EST
    I wouldn't know about them, but you have a fondness for reading the minds and motives of anyone who is critical of Obama or defends anything containing even the same letters as the name Clinton.  Just returning the favor.

    Besides, you're absolutely right.

    Making stuff up is not only easy, ...

    ... it's fun.

    Parent

    I think you may (none / 0) (#160)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 08:35:41 PM EST
    be confusing me with someone else. I see the situation as being slightly more multi-faceted than it being a simple choice of having to defend either Clinton or Obama.

    Parent
    Course you do ... (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 08:52:41 PM EST
    ... but that doesn't stop you from doing it.

    Parent
    Only if you see (none / 0) (#166)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 03:33:35 PM EST
    any criticism of Clinton as a "defense" of Obama, rather than as a criticism of established norms within the Democratic party.

    Parent
    Not any criticism, ... (none / 0) (#170)
    by Yman on Sat Mar 27, 2010 at 06:43:04 PM EST
    ... but yours?

    Oh, yeah.

    BTW - Most Democrats (as opposed to "Progressives") are generally fine with most "established norms" within the Democratic party, ...

    ... as long as they weren't promised something else.

    Parent

    Oh yeah.. (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 04:50:29 PM EST
    I love it when people elect themselves spokespersons for what "most people" think..And, as the representative of most people, maybe why you can explain why those satisfied with the norm could be so put-out when the "something else" didnt materialize on schedule?

    Take another pol of most people and get back to me.

    Parent

    Seriously? Tooooo easy .... (none / 0) (#182)
    by Yman on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 06:43:13 PM EST
    I'm not electing myself as spokesman for what "most people think".  I stated that "Most Democrats (as opposed to "Progressives") are "generally fine with most "established norms" within the Democratic party", and they are.  Look at Obama's approval rating (81%) among Democrats.  Look at Clinton's even higher approval (93%) rating among Democrats.  Democrats, as opposed to progressives, are generally fine with them.  Are you trying to suggest they're not?

    OTOH, if you really want to know why Obama's numbers have dropped so far, so fast and many are "so put-out when the "something else" didn't materialize on schedule ..."

    ... maybe you should consider the number of campaign promises that Obama's broken since he was elected.

    Just some food for thought ... :)

    Parent

    Im suggesting that (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 10:52:43 PM EST
    your numbers are deceptive because most people who are registered Democrats are intelligent enough to know that with the way "the two party system" is entrenched, they have nothing better to hang their hopes on. The "approval" means, more often than not, only that they approve of the Democratic party over the only perceived alternative. That dosnt of necessity translate into Democrats being anything like satisfied with the specifics of the way their representatives conduct policy.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#186)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 29, 2010 at 11:31:43 AM EST
    The question deals with approval of a President, presumably with his policies and the job he's doing in office.  Yet you suggest that "most people who are registered Democrats" interpret that as being merely a comparison to the Republican alternative.  What was it you said before?  Oh, yeah:

    "I love it when people elect themselves spokespersons for what "most people" think...

    Guess not.

    Parent

    So (none / 0) (#187)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 29, 2010 at 12:20:23 PM EST
    you dont think a large number of Democrats take into account that context when polled on whether they approve or disapprove of the President's performance?

    The knowledge of a lack of viable alternatives and the knowledge of how pol numbers are used are non-issues -- and a general "approval" response literally and of necessity means respondents approve of most things the President does?

    I tend to think the reality is a little more nuanced than that.

    Parent

    They may "take it into account", ... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 29, 2010 at 12:36:17 PM EST
    ... but the poll is not about whether they prefer Democrats to Republicans, but about whether they approve of the job a POTUS is doing.  And yes, by definition, that would indicate a general approval of the norms within the Democratic Party, unless, of course, the POTUS is acting outside those norms.  I think a better measure would be a poll of Democrats on the party platform, but again, I have no doubt most Democrats would be in general agreement (and approval) of the platform.

    Parent
    In my opinion (none / 0) (#189)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 29, 2010 at 12:54:53 PM EST
    that's an overly literal-minded interpretation. Most people know the political uses those numbers are put to and their psychological effect on the less informed..Just look at how often Bush's abysmal approval ratings were invoked by people to bolster their arguments that the Repubs were taking the country in the wrong direction..

    If you're trying to defend the status quo against "true progs", you're going to have to do better than that.

    Parent

    Back to being a spokesman ... (none / 0) (#190)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 29, 2010 at 01:12:21 PM EST
    ... for "most people", again?  Thought you didn't like that?

    BTW - Where did I say I'm trying to "defend the status quo against the true progs"?  Not at all.  As I stated originally, I'm just pointing out that most Democrats are generally fine with the established norms within the party.

    Does reading between those invisible lines give you headaches?

    Parent

    I heard Bill say that he often (none / 0) (#99)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:39:23 PM EST
    doesn't get credit for stopping a lot of bad things from happening when he was President....He did have two appointments to the Supreme Court....

    Bill became President as the conservative wave was cresting.  He had very little choice.  He had to adapt to survive.  I think he would have been much different with a more "progressive" Congress.....

    The pendulum is now swinging back....Bush's failings have made that happen more quickly....  

    Parent

    I'll give the conservatives (5.00 / 0) (#118)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:22:40 PM EST
    credit - if credit is the right word - for one thing: they know how to get organized and all on the same page -- or at least they were back then. It was as if, with the end of the Cold War, they needed a new enemy - project to be galvanized by and it turned out to be "liberalism" and the remnants of the New Deal. So all those right wing foundations, Bradley, Scaife, Smith-Richardson, Coors et al started funneling millions into think tanks, right wing publications, scholarships, college newspapers etc to get their message out there.

    Conservatism's limitations are it's organizational strength, in that it's easier to become a monolithic force when you're always working from a limited set of ideas and dont have to worry overly much about the dangers of too much free inquiry creating too many splinters and factions.

    Parent

    I was addressing the point of this post (none / 0) (#122)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:35:58 PM EST
    about health care.

    Focus.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#85)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:14:17 PM EST
    he also wouldn't have gotten a bill to sign- I mean he tried and it crashed and burned.

    Parent
    You're right ... it would have been (none / 0) (#145)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 07:07:47 PM EST
    ... so much easier to buy off the pharmaceutical and insurance companies up front, like Obama.

    OTOH, he could have just let the Republicans write the HCR bill, ...

    ... and ended up with the bill we have now.

    Parent

    Well, this progressive (none / 0) (#8)
    by TJBuff on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:08:36 AM EST
    believes in something that actually has a chance of working.  That's not Obamacare.

    I think (none / 0) (#9)
    by lilburro on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:08:51 AM EST
    Ruffini's article that Ezra links to is more interesting, in that he seems to believe that the bill moves the debate to the left, and I do not.  At this point the only way we get more liberal health care proposals is if this thing fails.  And of course if it fails, then who is to trust Democrats on health care?  But ANYWAY...

    My feeling with this Ezra post is that he's living in an alternate reality where Mass. Gov.-era Mitt Romney is President.  That's just pretty clearly not going to happen.  Why?  Because their base would never, ever, EVER allow that to happen.  And the Republican base gets what it wants.  If Romney was President we would be seeing a bill where we could buy insurance across state lines, deregulated and exploitive in all its glory.

    What insane, Broder-esque universe does Klein live in?

    one other thing to remember about Romney (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CST on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:26:21 AM EST
    and healthcare is - he didn't actually get what he wanted in MA.  He vetoed a number of important sections of the bill which were all overturned by huge Dem majorities in the house and senate.  In other words, MA was gonna pass this thing with or without him.  But he tried (and failed) to push it even further to the right.

    Parent
    Seriously, (none / 0) (#88)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:21:18 PM EST
    is it 2006 or something- did Ezra somehow miss Mitt denouncing not just "Romenycare" but the entire state of Massachussetts in late 2007?

    Parent
    That was when he was no longer running for office (none / 0) (#110)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:55:02 PM EST
    in MA and was appealing to national Repubs. See, it's not a flip-flop, it was just 7-dimension chess....

    Parent
    Progressive (none / 0) (#19)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 10:54:21 AM EST
    Progressives view the world as dynamic and shifts can be made through incremental changes.  They are internally consistent to shift their political and policy views.  

    Right now, in practice, too many 'progressives' believe little more than a progressive tax structure.

    Progressive structure (none / 0) (#20)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:01:58 AM EST
    As an example.... the health bill is 'progressive' for the Ezras as the subsidy levels are progressive.  See how that works?

    Parent
    The subsidies (none / 0) (#24)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:23:50 AM EST
    are not really progressive.  To say they are assumes that people can afford to pay the cost that they have to incur before the subsidies kick in.  That will be dependent on more than just income.  The cost of insurance with subsidies is more of a hardship on a person who makes, say, $40,000/yr than the total cost of insurance is for someone making $100,000/yr who has to buy without subsidies, since the latter has a greater pool of disposable income to start with.  The former has to pay their portion of the insurance whether it exhausts their disposable income completely or not.  And regional cost of living differences also complicate that.

    If insurance were voluntary and the subsidies were a carrot rather than a stick, you might consider the subsidies progressive, because if disposable income were available to the lower income folks, they could obtain insurance if their disposable income allowed.

    But the bright side is, per Ezra, non-payment of the fines carries no penalty.  So people who can't afford the insurance with or without subsidies can ignore the fines.

    Parent

    Maybe, the long-term value of the (none / 0) (#40)
    by KeysDan on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:07:57 PM EST
    subsidies in the health insurance reform package is that they may be less vulnerable to reductions in times of budgetary constraints, since the insured  will have a very strong "ally" with deep pockets,  the insurance companies--as they look out for themselves there may be a trickle down effect for the insured (like keeping them able to afford their policies).  Whereas, those  on expanded Medicaid, are likely to be more vulnerable since they will be on their own as recipients of a "welfare" program.

    Parent
    Uh huh (none / 0) (#119)
    by lentinel on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:23:02 PM EST
    So people who can't afford the insurance with or without subsidies can ignore the fines.

    And do you think that this feature will be well publicized?

    People will be scared sh-tless and do what they have to do.

    Parent

    For Ezra, it means being on the (none / 0) (#23)
    by Radix on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:16:45 AM EST
    TV more often. It's all good.

    Kim Wardlaw (none / 0) (#27)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:57:06 AM EST
    She's on the Ninth Circuit now.....Her mother is Mexican American....

    I thought she had a chance but one of her opinions is now up before the Surpreme Court and will likely be reversed... In Quon, she held that a police officer had a reasonable expectation of privacy in the pages he sent using a departmental pager.  The department had a written policy that the pagers were strictly for departmental use and all pagers could be accessed by the department.  Wardlaw held that an informal oral policy by a supervisor trumped the written policy.....

    She also wrote an opinion last year holding that tasers are a significant level of force that must be justified by a strong governmental interest.

    Rumor had it she was being vetted last year for the Souter seat.

    She would have been great on issues of personal liberty.  I thought she could be confirmed because before taking the bench she supported Republican Richard Riordan as Mayor of LA and had worked for mega firm O'Melveny, not exactly a socialist outfit....

    Worked on Bill's transition team and was appointed by Bill to the bench...

    She was heavily involved in local politics....She would be a bold progressive....and perhaps that shows too much now to be confirmed....

    The next big political issue should be the confirmation battle this Summer over Stevens's replacement....

    Oops, wrong thread....sorry. (none / 0) (#28)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 11:59:39 AM EST
    Progressives believe (none / 0) (#44)
    by Spamlet on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 01:18:41 PM EST
    that Obama could not get a public option through Congress. Because Obama told them so.

    Challenged by a young man in the audience who shouted several times, "What about the public option," a liberal-backed proposal for the creation of a government-sponsored plan to compete with private insurers, Obama said: "We couldn't get it through Congress."