Monday Afternoon Open Thread

The NFC Championship Game did a monster rating (over 50 million viewers).

The "theory of change" proponent Mark Schmitt admits that maybe, just maybe, he got it wrong:

The theory wasn't just about winning elections -- it was about managing power. I thought that a patient engagement, even involving Republicans, was likely to bear dividends. [. . . A]s prediction for what would happen in the first year of an Obama administration, I have to admit, it doesn't hold up as well.

You think? Finally, Week 2 of the Australian Open is ongoing and there is a big match late late tonight (3:30 AM EST) -- Rafael Nadal v. Andy Murray. I like Rafa at (+125). Go Rafa!

This an Open Thread.

< The Way Forward On The Health Bill | Rana Pleads Not Guilty in Mumbai-Danish Terror Plots >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    Wave of the future? (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:32:54 PM EST
    A new Public Policy Polling survey finds Republicans lead Democrats in the generic congressional ballot, 45% to 42%.

    "Their advantage is a function of the same formula that has brought them victories in Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts of late: a double digit lead with independents (43-31), and a slightly more unified party base (87% of GOP voters say they'll support their party compared to 84% of Democrats.)"

    Beau Biden decides he does not want to join the ranks of the unemployed in 2010.

    Delaware attorney general Beau Biden announced Monday that he will not seek election to the U.S. Senate seat once held by his father, Vice President Joe Biden. link

    I know this is a Rasmussen poll but what the heck.

    Indiana Rep. Mike Pence (R) leads Sen. Evan Bayh (D) by 3 points, according to a new Rasmussen poll (Jan. 21&24, 800 LV, MoE +/- 3.5%). Pence, the third ranking Republican in the House, is considering a Senate bid but hasn't indicated publicly which way he is leaning. link

    is it something in the water ya think? (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:34:11 PM EST
    South Carolina Republican regrets 'stray animal' metaphor

    Bauer told an audience Friday that people receiving government assistance are like "stray animals" because "they breed" and "don't know any better."

    "I never intended to tie people to animals," he said, before opting for a kinder animal metaphor: "If you have a cat, if you take it in your house and feed it and love it, what happens when you go out of town?"

    and if thats not a Grodian Knot I dont know what is.
    oh wait, you have the neighbors . . .

    Or, you employ someone (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by nycstray on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:41:08 PM EST
    to care take while you are gone. I used to make money this way as a kid. I took care of yards and houseplants also. Oh, and I used to babysit, lol!~

    Methinks the dude needs to just STFU.


    I thought (none / 0) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:45:01 PM EST
    the cat analogy was a veritable Gordian Knot of policy (I mean, seriously what DO you do with your cat - no one ever thought to ask THAT) so I googled and found this quote that seems somehow perfect:

    "Turn him to any cause of policy,
    The Gordian Knot of it he will unloose,
    Familiar as his garter" (Shakespeare, Henry V, Act 1 Scene 1. 45-47)


    What an idiot! (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:48:45 PM EST
    I guess everything he has loved is dead or almost dead.

    with his arm (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:53:11 PM EST
    around a guy who believes in ghost aliens.

    (did you see the pic)


    Oh please (2.00 / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 07:40:08 PM EST
    I grant you that his analogy was poor, but his point obviously was that if you just feed people they don't learn to take care of themselves.

    You have to feed'em and educate them, etc., etc. Otherwise you wind up with perpetual underclasses..

    Oh. Wait.


    Thanks for spinning what his (5.00 / 0) (#112)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 09:06:45 PM EST
    point "obviously was", Rush.

    And, of course, it had nothing whatsoever to do with stigmatizing people by implying that they're slightly less human and worthy of concern than your average inbred teabagger type.


    Whatever his point was (2.00 / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 10:04:05 PM EST
    my comment is on the button correct. Feed and educate or suffer the consequences.

    Look at Haiti. What a miserable job the so-called "developed" countries have done there.


    meanwhile some guy from Vermont (none / 0) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:05:28 PM EST
    aims to take on the entire South Carolina Delegation:

    Let's check in with his testimony in favor of a bill that would repeal his state's same-sex marriage law:

        * "So because I disagree on something that's pushed down my throat, I'm supposed to roll over because, representative, you think it's normal? I'm sorry you got the wrong person."
        * "I wanted to make sure everyone understood here, that this legislature sold the rights of $10,000 per kid under title four, when they said that homosexual couples, not married, can adopt. So we sold each kid to a homosexual couple that's not married for $10,000."
        * On incestuous couples: "Aren't we discriminating against all them?"
        * "What about the Muslims now? Everyone's praising the Muslims. They're killing us. What about them, they want three, four wives. We're discriminating against them."

    Andre? Jim? Joe? Mark? Time to put up or shut up. Your honor is at stake.

    from STINQUE.com


    For the "It's rough out there" file (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:46:48 PM EST
    My daughter phoned this afternoon to say that since she can find no part time job she will now sell Avon.  I went to their online location, looked it all over.  Everything is similarly priced to what I pay for it shopping elsewhere so....I will convert everything we purchase that Avon carries to Avon and it will be delivered to the house and she will get credit for it.  She says she makes 40% and doesn't have to pay for shipping as long as she turns her orders in on time.

    Addendum to that file... (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:58:17 PM EST
    we had some serious rain and wind this morning...coming down in buckets and 3 people knocked on the door to see if we were hiring.

    To be out in that weather pounding the pavement, you gotta be desperate for work...unfortunately we got nuthin'.


    Best of luck to her (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Jen M on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:03:52 PM EST
    but she won't get no pink Marykay Cadillac selling for Avon!

    More "rough out there" (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by nycstray on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 09:09:15 PM EST
    Went to the wine shop. Was chatting with the wife/owner about the move etc, husband/owner comes out and asks me if I noticed how empty the streets were of foot traffic. I suggested perhaps the recent very cold weather and today's horrible storm even though it was warmer. Nope. They been at this location a year or so longer than I've lived here. They know the street traffic in all seasons weather. Have seen the 'hood change and become a very active 'hood. They are on the main drag through here. Apparently folks are moving out. Looking for less expensive living and places are staying vacant. I hadn't noticed because usually when I'm out and about I stick to the quieter areas with my dog. If it's not busy when I have to go into the busy area, I'm generally happy but never put much stock into it. They then went on to all the other problems with the economy and what our government isn't doing right/fixing. I think the most revealing was when he said, "We live in America! What is going on? How can this happen?" They are Polish, coming to America, or being born here first generation and creating a successful life and living the "dream" is something that is believed in and valued. They are seriously concerned about the future of the country. I think their biz is doing 'okay', but in general, they recognize the pinch and have been paring back etc also. They are def concerned and a bit scared about the future. And all the people that are really living this. When the F*ck is Gov going to REALLY get it?!

    I wish your daughter much success with Avon. They've helped many of women just by giving them a chance. And it's a brand many of us can relate to with confidence. I don't wear makeup etc anymore, but may need some for occasions in the future. I'll be sure and take a look at them first when I shop. I'm sure there's many a mother out there relying on the income.


    Very enterprising young woman. (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:57:46 PM EST
    She is now headed down the (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:41:11 PM EST
    road of outshining her parents too in whatever areas are available to her at the moment.  She has a made a new friend in Charleston who she has grown close to now, and they cook together.  She has been "cooking" now for about a month.  It is remarkable considering her roots.  She did eat a lot of raw foods living with me....apples, grapes, baked potatoes from the microwave.  Now that she cooks from recipes she says that she realizes that she grew up not eating much meat, very true.  I don't care for meat much.  My husband cooks it so well though I do eat his cooking and it is very good.  I on the other hand am going to try that lentil thing tonight that was put up this morning.  Went and got the stuff when picking Joshua up from school.  Hope I don't burn it :)  She is going to housesit when Josh and I go to Colorado next week for his second opinion on his feet from his old ortho doctor.  She told me she would cook lemon butter sauce scampi for me because I love lemon butter sauce.  I will be in heaven.

    Next she'll register GOP! (none / 0) (#121)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 11:39:49 PM EST
    As one would expect, the (none / 0) (#43)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:47:23 PM EST
    real money is in the recruiting of reps. Things must have changed over the past couple of years...40% commission was for those turning in big orders.

    Even Nicholas Perricone recommends some of the Avon skin creams!

    I'm a licensed esthetician (on the side) and wouldn't hesitate to recommend most of the products in the "Anew" skincare category. Just avoid the ones with AHA.

    They have some terrific products in Moisture Therapy lotions and, of course, the infamous Skin So Soft as a bug repellent.

    Anyone can place an online order at Avon and credit a representative anywhere ... just need to know the rep number.


    Thank you I.G. (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:49:27 PM EST
    I used to buy some of their products when I was a single mom.  I loved my rep too, single woman in her mid forties named Winifred.  I adored her and a cup of coffee with her, once she knew my tastes she always had a sample for me and I could afford Avon on a tight budget.  Two of the Christmas ornaments we still have that daughter remembers from babyhood are Avon.  She did not know that until today.  I don't remember ever being displeased with the quality either.  And the childrens costume jewelry scare from Walmart really scared me.  Zoey is very girly girly and wants all the big girl stuff.  At least Avon has ordered specifically from the manufacturers what they sell and aren't buying lots off the pier made out of cadmium.  I think they have better quality control.

    Edwards="Moral Monster"? (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:50:26 PM EST
    No segue.


    But what I worry "being like Barack" truly means is that the knockout never comes. That the patience and the building of trust is, in fact, the end in itself. "Our Barack doesn't do mean," means, "Our Barack doesn't make the strategic choice to defeat a reactionary adversary even when that opportunity manifestly presents itself to him." This is Leadership 101, and, I fear, Obama is flunking.


    Depends who you think Obama's (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by observed on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:57:00 PM EST
    adversary is.
    If he's a stealth Republican I'd say he's been confronting his adversaries pretty forcefully.

    Hmm. I'm a bit surprised (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by brodie on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:38:17 PM EST
    that as keen an observer of the political scene as Perlstein had backed slick Johnny Edwards last time, though intelligent people in the heat of political battle can make mistakes.  I made one bad VP pick, for instance.

    But I agree with Perlstein that Obama is on his naive way to trying to defeat a thuggish opponent by merely floating like a butterfly.  Because stinging like a bee apparently was only for Hillary.

    Now, "moral monster" by Schmitt is a bit rough.  Moral midget perhaps.  The monsters are those pols who send our troops into unnecessary wars for selfish and partisan political gain, or who quietly arrange to have political opponents knocked off.  Cheating on your cancer-stricken wife, awful though that is, just doesn't rise to the same level.


    Obama (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:44:44 PM EST
    brought pom poms to a gun fight.

    Not what the country needed.


    Yeah, even though pom poms are round (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:53:48 PM EST
    they're not the right kind of balls.

    Great one (none / 0) (#128)
    by cal1942 on Wed Jan 27, 2010 at 01:09:30 AM EST
    LOL.  Many thanks.

    I was thoroughly criticized for saying (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:47:44 PM EST
    from the get-go I didn't trust Edwards, a former plaintiffs' trial lawyer.  But, but, but, they sd., he was a trial lawyer on behalf of the downtrodden.  

    I didn't learn (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by brodie on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:06:44 PM EST
    of this site until about Mar/Apr of 08, so I missed all the primary season fun some of you were probably having here.  The librul sites I visited then were mostly either heavily pro-O or divided betw O and JE, with my candidate Hillary a distant third.  

    Talk about being in the despised minority ...


    Jeralyn and many others here favored (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:08:06 PM EST

    So I understand. (none / 0) (#64)
    by brodie on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:24:00 PM EST
    I often agree with her on criminal justice system matters, but not always on the political ones.  

    Does anybody know what percentage (none / 0) (#51)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:57:36 PM EST
    of Edwards supporters subsequently supported Obama after Edwards dropped out of the primaries?

    Sample of 1; my step mother. Big (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:06:14 PM EST
    Edwards supporter, mainly due to being very impressed w/Elizabeth Edwards.  But, at caucus in IA, Edwards voters didn't have mand. min. # so she switched at the caucus to Obama.

    Yes you were :) (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:53:13 PM EST
    I stand in the corner.....head down suffering my youthful inexperienced exuberance....corrected :)

    Neither did I (none / 0) (#106)
    by MKS on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 07:18:53 PM EST
    Just thought he was too slick.  But neither did Feingold.

    And John Kerry was not all that enamored.  Have you heard the account of Kerry being freaked out by Edwards just before he picked him as VP nominee?  Edwards told Kerry that he was going to tell him something that he had never told anyone before regarding his dead son....(this part was a little macabre, so I might have misremembered it and mangled the details)  Edwards held his dead son in the funeral home and decided then and there he would fight for....common man, I think.

    The problem with this story that Kerry was the first one to hear?  Edwards had told Kerry the exact same story a year before, apparently forgetting that he had told Kerry....To forget telling Kerry suggests that he told the story so many times, he forgot to whom he told it.  A story about his dead son used as a closing argument repeated over and over again, each time saying it was the first time he ever told it.

    I think this is from Shrum's book.


    Here is a link (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 07:30:06 PM EST
    to a sympathetic article by a former Edwards speech writer.

    An excerpt:

    That is what happened with two stories in Shrum's new political tell-all. In one story, Shrum says that Senator Edwards told Senator Kerry who told Bob Shrum (that should be a real clue about how accurate this account is) a very personal story about the time his son Wade died and said that it was a story he told very few people about. Shrum writes, "...that after his son Wade had been killed, he climbed onto the slab at the funeral home, laid there and hugged his body..." According to Shrum, Kerry was "queasy" because Senator Edwards had recounted that story before and in the same words.

    It's really quite beyond me (none / 0) (#119)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 11:26:06 PM EST
    what his ghastly personal life has to do with "trusting him" on policy issues.  Seriously.  Elizabeth shouldn't trust him, and has apparently finally kicked him out of the house, but that has nothing to do with the rest of us.

    Obama is flunking DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES 101. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:49:48 PM EST
    Leadership is not the problem. The problem is that he has never claimed to be a Democrat and he never promised, nor intended, to be a leader for a pro-public Democratic agenda.

    Help me Jesus (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:56:21 PM EST
    An old friend just emailed me that I need to go read Booman.  I just can't get away from Booman.  Anyhow, Booman says that he doesn't want to take part in criticizing the Democratic leaders because that is just demoralizing the troops.  Well, first off.....those troops are demoralizing the people with almost all of their actions of late.  And secondly, the Democratic leaders really aren't what I'd call troops right now.  They aren't picking dirt out of their supper tonight sleeping in unheated plywood cubicles away from their families halfway around the world, and those troops Booman is fine with people demoralizing them and their families.

    I think (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:57:36 PM EST
    We need an intervention for you MT.  Or group therapy - you have Tricare - do they have "Booman Anonymous" groups on base?

    the surprising thing to me (5.00 / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:01:14 PM EST
    is how many people apparently take the guy seriously

    He's got big pom poms. (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by observed on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:03:02 PM EST
    I knew (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:05:09 PM EST
    it had to be something

    When the Booman thing went down (5.00 / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:28:21 PM EST
    there were people who work on post here who were reading him because I was posting there, mostly wingers who were unhappy that protested with Sheehan.  Guess what they used all that that went down to "prove".  I supposed Armando saved the day giving proof that not all lefties are even romotely interested in allowing the spitting on of troops.  I don't think that any of them read here though because BTD is too hard to fight with and you don't even want to think you can lick him in one of his arguments :) BTD is no fun for wingers :)

    And the Booman blog (none / 0) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 06:51:06 PM EST
    never was a "good" blog for me to become involved with.  This internet thing was in its infancy though and it had not occurred to me to evaluate where I was posting at or participating at.  The pie fight exodus ended up at Booman (seems funny to remember all that and how serious it all seemed back then), and it never crossed my mind to wonder if I was posting at a place or space that could handle it.  Booman himself, with how serious that he wants to be taken though...you would think he could have led people to a deeper awareness and understanding of all the pieces in play and what all that entailed....but NOPE :) Lessons learned for me though, lessons learned...

    James Clyburn (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:59:05 PM EST
    The Senate thinks it's "the House of Lords"

    "[Senators] tend to see themselves as a House of Lords and they don't seem to understand that those of us that go out there every two years stay in touch with the American people," he said in an interview with Fox News Radio. "We tend to respond to them a little better."

    Since (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:40:58 PM EST
    Beau Biden is not running for Senate in Delaware, anyone want to make any guesses a)as to why and b) the consequences?  From what I've been reading, he says he wants to run agains for Delaware AG, and the "the experts" think this is a very good shot for the Republicans to pick up a seat, by running the popular Mike Castle.

    Any thoughts?

    The pundits on the toob (5.00 / 0) (#89)
    by Cream City on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:17:56 PM EST
    on a couple of nets -- CNN, MSNBC, that I've surfed today -- were talking about it as probably based on smart advice from his father to sit out the coming disaster this year.  If so, that ought to be scary.

    Mike Castle is 70 (none / 0) (#120)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 11:33:08 PM EST
    Beau Biden has plenty of time, he's only 40, I think.  Theory I heard is that he actually likes being AG, thinks if he abandons a big child molestation case he's due to prosecute, the voters won't appreciate it, he's queasy about running when his dad is VP, and he's got lots of time to do it later.

    Wondering how.... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:45:00 PM EST
    the Minny Supremes could uphold a DUI conviction involving a car that wouldn't start...the 'D' still stands for 'driving' right?

    Anything is possible when the end game (2.00 / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 07:45:39 PM EST
    is to punish not protect.

    Besides, that is no worse than making the ex-husband pay child support for a child that DNA tests prove is not his.


    As Justice Page said (none / 0) (#11)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:56:16 PM EST
    "Although the facts of this case are not those of the typical physical control case in which a jury can infer that the defendant was in physical control because he drove the vehicle to where it came to rest, a jury could reasonably find that Fleck, having been found intoxicated, alone, and sleeping behind the wheel of his own vehicle with the keys in the vehicle's console, was in a position to exercise dominion or control over the vehicle and that he could, without too much difficulty, make the vehicle a source of danger," Page wrote. "Based on the totality of the circumstances, the facts in the record, and the legitimate inferences drawn from them, we hold that a jury could reasonably conclude that Fleck was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of being in physical control of a vehicle under the influence of alcohol and with an alcohol concentration of .08 or more."

    (And Justice Page is also known as one the Minnesota Vikings infamous "Purple People Eaters" of the 1970s, and later for the Chicago Bears. During his football career, the Vikings won an impressive four conference titles. Page played in 218 consecutive games without an absence, during which he recovered 22 fumbles, made 178½ sacks (Vikings-138½, Bears-40), and scored three touchdowns (two on fumble recoveries and one on an interception return). He also had three safeties, the second most in NFL history. He set a career-high in sacks with 18 in 1976 and is unofficially credited with 5 other seasons with 10 sacks or more. [1] [2]

    While in the NFL, Page earned All-Pro honors six times and made second-team all-league three additional times. He was voted to nine consecutive Pro Bowls. Eleven times he was voted All-Conference, in 1968 and 1969 as All-Western Conference and 1970 through 77 and 1980 as an All-National Football Conference.

    In 1971, Page was named both the AP NFL Defensive Player of the Year (the first player to be named such) and the AP's NFL Most Valuable Player. Page was the first defensive player to be named MVP since the award's inception. In addition, he was voted the NEA NFL Defensive Player of the Year in 1973.)

    Shame on you... (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:07:37 PM EST
    former Purple People Eater Page...how could this drunk make the "motor vehicle" a source of danger...is he an engine mechanic?  If yes, did he even have his tools? Does he have twinkle nose bewitching powers a la Samantha Stevens?  

    More from your link (none / 0) (#36)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:38:07 PM EST
    As Fleck was an unsympathetic figure with multiple DUI convictions in his past, prosecutors had no problem convincing a jury to convict. The court took up Fleck's case to expand the precedent to cover the case of mere presence in an undriven -- and perhaps undrivable -- car into the definition of drunk driving. The court relied on Fleck's drunken claim that his car was operable to set aside the physical evidence to the contrary.

    So, it looks like the dumba$$ has no one but himself to blame.


    Not concerned with the dumba$$... (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:46:11 PM EST
    only the precedent...looks like the court is trying to catch up in the dumba$$ column.

    Doesn't look like he was (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:57:07 PM EST
    convicted of DUI.  Different statutes:  opinion

    Appellant Daryl Fleck was convicted of: (1) felony first-degree being in physical control of a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol (within ten years of three or more qualified incidents), Minn. Stat. §§ 169A.20, subd. 1(1), 169A.24, subd. 2 (2006); and (2) felony first-degree being in physical control of a motor vehicles with a blood alcohol concentration of .08 or more, Minn. Stat. §§ 169A.20, subd. 1(5), 169A.24, subd. 2 (2006).

    Still... (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:03:38 PM EST
    how is it a "motor vehicle" if the motor doesn't start?  If it can only move by manpower (aka pushing it), its not a motor vehicle...its a pushcart with a heavy hunk of metal under the hood.

    I think if it has a motor it qualifies! (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:06:34 PM EST
    Remember that barcolounger case.

    That motor worked... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:08:16 PM EST
    without any pistons firing, its just a hunk of metal.

    Just don't move to Minnesota. Of course (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:10:41 PM EST
    court can't exempt non-working motors.  It's cold out there.  

    PS  CA statutes still prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonalbe doubt the person charged was driving a motor vehicle, not sitting in their car in the parking lot with the keys on the center console and a cold engine.


    I like Cali's take... (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:12:46 PM EST
    a lot better.

    Then stop dissing SDPD! (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:14:37 PM EST
    Would love to... (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:22:02 PM EST
    tell 'em to stop pounding on people!  That and we gotta repeal a ton of bullsh*t laws, state and fed, then I'll get down with po-po across the land:)  Kumbaya.

    It's not like I drew these lines with my kind on one side and the po-po on the other...just playing the hand we've been dealt:)


    Shorter Krugman: Fate Failed Obama (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dan the Man on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:45:23 PM EST
    Krugman: "So one case you can make is that Obama was just fated to have a bad first year."

    Fate (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:18:57 PM EST
    this just underscores my increasing suspicion that economists are overpaid astrologers who tell their clients what they think they want to hear.

    Longer Krugman: Obama "fumbled" (none / 0) (#35)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:37:36 PM EST
    So one case you can make is that Obama was just fated to have a bad first year...

    But could more have been done to turn things around? The best chance of averting the normal, dismal aftermath of financial crisis was to respond very aggressively on multiple fronts: really big fiscal stimulus, massive recapitalization of the banks to get them lending again (which in turn would have meant temporary nationalization of the weakest players). And aggressive action at the Fed, including really big quantitative easing and a higher inflation target, could have helped.

    In fact, the Obama administration didn't do any of these things. Instead, it pursued meliorative policies: a stimulus that was huge by historical standards but inadequate to the size of the problem, and a bank policy aimed at restoring confidence rather than promoting a revival of lending...Betting that the economy would largely take care of itself was, it turned out, a deeply risky strategy -- and the bet went bad.

    The best bet is to pass health care, so that Obama has something to show for his efforts...and hope that the economy turns around in time to help Obama in 2012.

    It might be a better "bet" for Obama to take a cue from LBJ and make room for a new RFK who will live to fulfill the promise.


    So, after Krugman points out that (none / 0) (#54)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:01:39 PM EST
    Obama lost his bet on the economy by taking the safe position, Krugman thinks a better bet for Obama is to duplicate that same kind of thinking on the issue of health care and then rely on "hoping" that the economy turns around?

    What's next?  Krugman wants us all to clap hard for Tinkerbell?

    Krugman is certainly entitled to his opinions, on any and all subjects, but the problem is that he has come to be relied on for his economic expertise, and what he is doing now is cheerleading for Obama; doing the latter is cheapening the former, something Krugman may not be happy about before too long.


    Wait -- the reason for us (none / 0) (#61)
    by Cream City on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:21:02 PM EST
    to take on awful bills -- in Congress, in our taxes -- is to make Obama feel better?

    Um, isn't that sorta backwards?  Isn't he supposed to worry about and work for us?

    The world, and Krugman, now and officially are nuts.


    I think (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:22:39 PM EST
    Obama needs a hug.

    You first... (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:10:25 PM EST
    Let us know if it was the Best Hug Ever.

    Michelle scares me (none / 0) (#85)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:13:39 PM EST
    I don't want to be hurt with those arms!

    Krugman overstates the case (none / 0) (#83)
    by Manuel on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:11:11 PM EST
    The primary problem Obama had with HCR was the process he used.  A tweak here or there in the process and hewould have gotten his bill.

    Massachusetts enacted a universal health-care plan several years ago, and the survey shows that it remains highly popular. Overall, 68 percent of the voters in Tuesday's election say they support the plan, including slightly more than half of those voting for Brown.

    Obama also remains popular in Massachusetts. More than six in 10 of those who voted approve of his job performance, with 92 percent of Coakley's voters expressing satisfaction, along with 33 percent of Brown's. More than half of Brown's backers say Obama was not a factor in their vote.



    The problem isn't Obama's process, (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:50:28 PM EST
    the problem is his priorities - which is about putting corporate profit before public welfare.

    He didn't ever want any damn health bill that would benefit the public more than it benefits his corporate benefactors in the health in$urance lobby, big pharma, etc.


    Just like most other U.S. Pols (none / 0) (#111)
    by Manuel on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 08:46:55 PM EST
    In their mind corporate welfare is the same as the public welfare to some extent.  That is the political reality.

    Some of the process things Obama could have done differently include the following.

    • No deal with pharma.
    • Not dragging out negotiations with the Republicans.
    • Make his position about the publci option clear.
    • Repudiated the excise tax.

    All of these are process details.

    Oy, POLICY comes before PROCESS... (none / 0) (#126)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Jan 26, 2010 at 04:02:50 PM EST
    PROCESS is the means by which POLICIES are effectuated.

    Obama doesn't have a liberal Democratic policy agenda - ergo he doesn't employ a process that would institute liberal Democratic policies.


    Tennis betting fans: what could (none / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:04:28 PM EST
    +125 possibly mean here?

    Temperature? (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:42:25 PM EST

    Don't need to be a tennis fan... (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:29:31 PM EST
    +125 means for every hunj you bet, you get 125 if it hits.  -125 means you have to bet 125 to win a hunj.

    Ah. This plus urban dictionary gets (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:34:37 PM EST
    me there.

    Travel question... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:35:34 PM EST
    any of you fine TL'ers ever been to Belize?

    Special Lady said she wouldn't mind getting away for a little r&r&r in lieu of me just coming to visit...was checking out Belize and it looks gorgeous down there, and not overly developed...was wondering if anyone has been and wouldn't mind sharing their experience.

    A co-worker of mine... (none / 0) (#38)
    by desertswine on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:40:45 PM EST
    is down there right now.  But I can't give you a report on it until she gets back.

    If you wouldn't mind... (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:50:18 PM EST
    passing her take along upon return, I'd much appreciate it d'wine...you know I ain't goin' nowhere, TL junkie that I am:)

    Checking out some resorts... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:47:32 PM EST
    on Ambergris Caye...looks absolutely stunning.

    Spent a week there, on Ambergris Caye, (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:58:22 PM EST
    back in the day, with my then-and-now special lady.

    Beaching, sailing, snorkeling, diving and just chilling out. Walk everywhere. You can wear flip-flops if you feel like dressing up. Just wonderful.

    I'll never forget the ad we saw painted on the side of a building in Belize City: "Guinness is good for you." I made sure to stay very healthy during my stay there...


    Although, if we were to go today, (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:00:48 PM EST
    as we're so much more "evolved" now, we would probably rent a jeep and spend the week exploring the back country and hanging with the real peeps...

    Warning: do not drive at night. (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:10:38 PM EST
    Too many reports of armed robbers.  Including an OAT van in which a good friend was a passenger.  Really frightening.  Can't figure out why OAT did not know not to drive at night.

    Yep . Been robbed (none / 0) (#60)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:15:53 PM EST
    twice at gunpoint in Central America.

    First time was pretty rough, though the second time the guy looked more scared than we were so we threw rocks at him and he ran away...


    One of the female tourists on this (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:22:18 PM EST
    bus was raped.  Everyone was taken off separate from the bus and cameras, cash, jewelry, etc. were taken at gunpoint.  

    I love travelling and loved seeing Guatemala and Copan and lots of Mexico.  But, if this happened to me, doubt I would go again.


    Wow. Not good. (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:25:12 PM EST
    Which is why I think kdog should check (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:28:03 PM EST
    out Costa Rico.

    Dunno. I think the Cayes, like Ambergris, (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:42:43 PM EST
    are totally safe. One robbery on caye and the island's only source of income, tourism, goes right away...

    Costa Rica (none / 0) (#80)
    by Jen M on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:07:27 PM EST
    Is great. I loved living there when I was in High School.

    That was a while ago though. I hear some things have changed.


    Or possibly... (none / 0) (#50)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:54:06 PM EST
    one of the middle of nowhere resorts on the Macal River.

    Where did you stay sarc?


    If Belize (none / 0) (#68)
    by Cream City on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:31:22 PM EST
    does not end up being the spot for you and yours, from what is here in comments (yikes), may I recommend Isla Mujeres?  Friends did Belize for years but not lately, saying it's starting to get too built up.  So they, and sometimes we, have been doing Isla in recent years.  They just got back and report that Isla's trend to being built up was put on hold with our economy, so it is not bad yet.  

    You can do the resort/all-in-one thing, or you can go your own on lodging and enjoy sampling all the options for dining from simple (my pref) to fine and fancy.  Best part of it for us is getting there fast, with a lot of choices of flights -- because it is just 15 minutes by ferry from Cancun.  But it is a world away from all that in so many ways.

    White sands, warm and gentle waters (on the Caribbean side -- but the wild Atlantic side is fun to see) fresh shrimp or lobster or fish for every meal, and my but the margaritas.  Go there and toast the ancient Mayan goddesses for whom the Isle of the Women is named.  Ruins of the shrine are still on Isla.  But don't miss the day trip to the amazing Mayan city of Chichinitza (sp?) and many more.  Swim in a cenote, and you never will be the same. . . .


    Really? We went to Isla Mujeres (none / 0) (#74)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:47:02 PM EST
    on that same trip, it was much more built up than Belze's Cayes. Of course, we were there a while ago.

    Thanks to all.... (none / 0) (#78)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:02:29 PM EST
    Sarc...this is what I like to hear.

    Beaching, sailing, snorkeling, diving and just chilling out. Walk everywhere. You can wear flip-flops if you feel like dressing up. Just wonderful.

    If we had two weeks (and unlimited funds) I'd do the rent and drive and see the whole country...but we're looking at 5 nights so we need a one-stop unplug and chill r&r&r spot with some snorkeling & beach action. Maybe a day trip to the rainforest.

    My baby has been to C.R., trying for someplace new.  Will check La Isla CC...ty all again.


    Give Key West a try, (none / 0) (#88)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:17:24 PM EST
    it may be just what you are looking for.

    kdog, check out San Andres Island (none / 0) (#91)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:20:53 PM EST
    off of the coast of Colombia, or Floranopolis, Santa Catarina island on the coast of Brazil... I can rec either one.

    What a resource... (none / 0) (#93)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:23:07 PM EST
    your a wealth of info all...I've got mad research to do.

    Yup, when Bush the First (none / 0) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:45:47 PM EST
    invaded Panama, all flights in the region were grounded and I got "stuck" on San Andreas.

    That, my friends, was a party.


    How long ago? (none / 0) (#87)
    by Cream City on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:16:05 PM EST
    We haven't been in two years.  We saw the first high-rises up on North Beach, sadly.  But away from there, into the village, it still was slow-going.  And our friends just back this week reported it still was good -- although we are watching it and ready to seek out somewhere else if it gets overrun with suntan oil ruining the coral reefs and white sand beaches.  So I follow this conversation and others like it closely, to see if I might like Belize, Costa Rica (neighbors were there a few months ago for hiking and birdwatching and loved it), etc.

    And as you say of Belize, gimme a place where you can wear flipflops everywhere -- and be overdressed if you put a t-shirt on over the swimsuit.  That is, if you wear a swimsuit top, as the Europeans do not do on North Beach. :-)  And it was mostly Europeans when we were there.  We let the Americans do Cancun and dine on McDonald's.  (That said, old Cancun, where few Americans go, still was lovely -- and more protected from the hurricanes, as the oldsters were smart about where they built.)


    Way long time ago. (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:52:11 PM EST
    You've been there much more recently than me.

    I'm also familiar with Old Cancun. Really lovely. The last time I was there the strip was just beginning to be built...


    I'd stick to the Cayes ... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Yman on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:39:30 PM EST
    ... if you only have a few days.  Ambergris is the most developed, but it's all relative - it's nowhere near a Cancun, although it's been a few years since I've been there.  More like sand streets and golf carts.  If you like snorkeling or diving, the reef is only a 10 min. boat ride.

    Caye Caulker is a 15 min. boat ride from Ambergris, but doesn't have much in the way of beaches - more of a backpacker destination that you can use to jump off on snorkeling/dive trips.  If you want any creature comforts (i.e. choice of restaurants, air conditioning, market, etc.), I'd stick to Ambergris.  The mainland is nice (some nature reserves, Mayan ruins, canoeing on the Belize River), although it's not that easy to get around, since outside of Belize City the roads are not marked very well, and there's always the crime issue.

    Good luck.


    I got hit (none / 0) (#48)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 03:51:09 PM EST
    with the 'theory of change' thing from an Obama supporter during a discussion after a party meeting in '08.

    I hadn't heard of it.  I went home and dug it out.  When I finished it I thought I had just read something that was over the top stupid.

    How in hell do these people get those gigs?

    The 'Theory of Change' was no theory (none / 0) (#127)
    by RonK Seattle on Tue Jan 26, 2010 at 05:38:44 PM EST
    When a real Theory is introduced, there's a certain requisite description of the Theory, and certain requisite questions in response, and certain requisite answers to those questions, leading to certain requisite tests.

    Obama's Theory of Change had none of the above, and resort to any of the above was declared  inappropriate and inadmissible.

    That were no theory, folks. That were just a garden variety Car That Runs On Water.


    Gary Coleman arrested (none / 0) (#67)
    by jbindc on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:29:02 PM EST

    I think the picture says it all.....

    C'mon, that's the Son of Yoda. (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Cream City on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:32:21 PM EST
    did I forget to put that in the other thread. (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:42:43 PM EST
    if so it was an oversite.
    he is beginning to look a bit like a 1 meter tall black Hannibal Lecter isnt he?

    for domestic violence? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:43:17 PM EST
    how short must the victim have been?

    What you talkin' about jb... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:19:13 PM EST
    I love the quote from Lt. Harris...

    "He's still our guest here,"

    Funny way of treating "guests" out in Utah...is "prisoner" not pc anymore or something?  Another newspeak revision I missed?


    been thinking of starting a business (none / 0) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:50:46 PM EST
    I think in a couple of years one of these franchises could really take off.

    Llamas are great! (none / 0) (#81)
    by Jen M on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:08:59 PM EST
    and portable too  :)

    obviously (none / 0) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:12:03 PM EST
    Heck, Alpaccas get left out again. (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:15:14 PM EST
    Can't deny the appeal of the old man, (none / 0) (#76)
    by rennies on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:53:26 PM EST
    who nearly pulled it off -- just one less fumble.

    Well, the Vikes had a lot of fumbles (none / 0) (#92)
    by Cream City on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:21:49 PM EST
    and the old man -- Favre's daughter is in college, btw, about the age of dad's teammates -- ought to have had two fewer interceptions and one fewer injury.  It was classic Favre, falling apart with sloppy passing at the end of the season, as we have seen before in Packerland.

    But will he retire again, for the third time? Well, sometimes he says yes, sometimes he says no. . . .  It's more classic Favre.  But no matter how foolish the old man is, no one can take away the amazing record of starting all 320 games in his career.  


    50 Million Viewers? (none / 0) (#77)
    by SOS on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:58:34 PM EST
    Yah and how do they invent these numbers?

    Obama the polarazing Democrat says Gallup (none / 0) (#100)
    by Politalkix on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 05:51:59 PM EST
    Please read the Gallup poll link

    Obama's 88% average approval rating from his own party's supporters is exceeded only by George W. Bush's 92% during Bush's first year in office. Obama's 23% approval among supporters of the opposition party matches Bill Clinton's for the lowest for a first-year president. But Clinton was less popular among Democrats than Obama has been to date, making Obama's ratings more polarized.

    It seems that Talk Left Democrats are comprised mostly from among the 12% of them that do not give the President positive approval rating.

    Speaking only for myself (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 08:00:20 PM EST
    If I were polled I wouldn't even call myself a Democrat anymore, so I'm not a member of the 12%.  I'm an Independent voter, where the approval rating is currently only about 43%.  I couldn't find a year average approval among Independents.

    I know it's terrible not to approve of Mr. Obama.  However, thankfully, it's still legal to disapprove of the president.

    IMHO, Bill Clinton didn't drive people out of the Democratic Party the way Mr. Obama did, the way his sleazily-run primary campaign did.  So people still remained Democrats while disliking Prez. Clinton, which is what kept his numbers lower.   And yeah, I'm just re-living the primaries again. Some things are too heinous to forget. I won't forget.  I also won't forget what he did to the chance at health care reform. By putting corporations before human beings he ruined the chance.


    Ditto. Well put on all counts. (none / 0) (#114)
    by Cream City on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 09:59:44 PM EST
    It muse have been in an earlier thread... (none / 0) (#103)
    by ZtoA on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 06:13:11 PM EST
    the topic was fortune cookie fortunes. I've done "research" on fortune cookies (don't ask) and you know there are websites dedicated to fortune cookie fortunes. My favorite was:

    "You are Illiterate"

    Tho, runners up are: "The tenors need to tone it down just a little bit."  "Make a wish, it might come true" and "Someone can read your mind."

    tennis (none / 0) (#104)
    by perl on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 06:48:51 PM EST
    glad to see you are a tennis fan--- all aussie open has been high quality ---- all eight guys could win the tournament-- having justin and kim  back is great for the woman's game-- have fun watching

    if you want to see what the pros are saying about the aussie open and the play there go to our site tennispro.com

    I'm also watching for the chance (none / 0) (#115)
    by Cream City on Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 10:03:13 PM EST
    to see the sights and chat about Melbourne.  What a great city, and now I know exactly where the open is located -- right next to the phenomenal Royal Botanical Gardens.  And, of course, thousands of amazing restaurants, literally thousands.  And ohhh, the bakeries on almost every block. . . .