Tuesday Night TV and Open Thread

Here's Markos of Daily Kos with a message to President Obama on the public option and health care legislation:

We're not talking what we really wanted - we really wanted single payer - so we already compromised from our position. I think the public option at this point is sort of our Waterloo, This is where we stand and fight.

I'm watching Big Brother 11 (seems all but certain Michelle will be leaving tonight) and America's Got Talent. What's got your attention, on TV or elsewhere? This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Weak tea (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Spamlet on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:24:41 PM EST
    Markos: "We already gave up," "we already compromised," etc. Yeah. Wonder where Obama got the idea that he could keep on kicking progressives in the teeth.

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:47:05 PM EST
    the Waterloo analogy is a mistake because I immediately asked myself, "so who is Napoleon then?"

    Yes - I keep hearing that analogy (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:52:49 PM EST
    and it doesn't quite fit.  Besides which, it puts the Abba song in my head.  Of course, that does kind of sum up the netroot-Obama relationship:

    But how could I ever refuse?
    I feel like i win when I lose


    Maybe KOS meant (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:57:26 PM EST
    that if the public option is nixed, we'll all collectively sing Abba's Waterloo until Obama vomits uncontrollably.

    That would certainly be enough of a threat for me.

    Apologies to those who enjoy Abba songs (my husband is a fan, but I'm obviously not).


    I wouldn't call myself a big Abba fan (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 09:04:03 PM EST
    But whenever i have a song stuck in my head, at least half the time it is one of theirs. Catchy tunes!

    But yes, if that threat is enough to shake some sense into Obama, I'm all for it.


    Exactly! (none / 0) (#9)
    by Spamlet on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:50:14 PM EST
    The impending campaign finance clusterf*k (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 09:09:19 PM EST
    Here's the best writeup so far I've seen on the impending campaign finance disaster that will be triggered by conservative activist judges on the Supreme Court.

    seems a shame (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by The Last Whimzy on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 10:01:01 PM EST
    the well spoken advocate has been reduced to sheepishly making "Pretty please, we already compromised..." pleas when it's clear just how ruthless he can be when he goes on the attack.

    seems obama got what he wanted out of the well spoken advocate and has now moved on.

    Heard Diego Matheus, age 24, (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 02:57:09 AM EST
    Conduct a wonderful concert last night. He trained as a violinist in Venezuela in the fed. gov't program, as did Gustav Dudamel, age 25, the new artistic director of LA Phil.

    So as soon as we achieve universal health care, let's advocate for music ed for all.

    While we're all looking at (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 04:13:03 AM EST
    this healthcare fiasco, Obama is bounding ahead with a tragic war in Afghanistan.

    The latest I read said that women and children are "aiding" the militants reload. That is shorthand for "It's OK for us to kill them".
    "Deep regret" isn't going over so well.

    My spontaneous reaction to these reports from Afghanistan is to want Obama to be thrown out of office.

    But no one is paying much attention. That's what politicians love to do. Give us some issue that gets us stirred up (eg: Gates and Crowley) while they go about the big business of undeclared war.

    George Will is stirring things up by urging a withdrawal of forces.
    He is not interested in peace - he wants to bomb from afar.
    But at least he is talking about the issue.
    I hope that others with more humane credentials will follow suit.

    We know what needs doing lentinel... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:54:55 AM EST
    but nobody has the stones...certainly not me.

    Bad guys won...we can't beat 'em, we ain't gonna join 'em, so here we are on the sidelines.


    Nahhh (none / 0) (#1)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:21:00 PM EST
    I think Kevin's going to throw Natalie under the bus and vote Jordan out.  He doesn't trust Natalie.  Besides that, it would be the smartest move.  Michele and Kevin have a better chance of beating Natalie in the last HOH than Kevin and Jordan do.

    Of course, I could be wrong.  Maybe I'm just wishful thinking

    I want Kevin to win.  I certainly don't want Natalie to win and I suspect she will if she's in the final 2.

    Do we have to worry about spoilers? (none / 0) (#5)
    by katiebird on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:38:17 PM EST
    California is watching yet!!!

    I'm in Washington (none / 0) (#6)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:41:23 PM EST
    and haven't seen the show either.

    Do you get "MI-5" on PBS? (none / 0) (#31)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:12:01 AM EST
    It's now an "old" show, from 2003-2006, but each episode plays twice weekly here and I am totally hooked (even though three of my favorite characters have summarily been forced into retirement from the agency!)

    So much better than any American spy show.


    "MI-5" aka "Spooks"... (none / 0) (#35)
    by EL seattle on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:35:56 AM EST
    ...had it's seventh season last year.  So I think it's still a going concern for 2009.  For me it's not quite as great as (my personal favorite) "Sandbaggers", but when it locks onto some solid plotting, I think it's a first rate TV thriller.  Terrific casting, too.

    I did not know it was still going! (none / 0) (#45)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:35:46 AM EST
    That's great news. (Haven't seen The Sandbaggers -- is that something I can rent?)

    Yes, the casting on MI-5 is brilliant, IMO. Can't think of the actor's name who played Tom, but his performance in that role was very deep -- the soul of the show. And the guy who plays Harry, the agency head, is fantastic. Not crazy about the replacement team leader, "Adam", but he may get canned or shipped off to Chile or threatened with indictment too! One never knows.


    The actor who played Tom... (none / 0) (#59)
    by EL seattle on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:51:49 AM EST
    ... popped up in the BBC version of "Little Dorrit" that was on PBS a while ago.  (his name is Matthew Macfadyen).  His performance in the Dickens production was fine, but I could never see him without thinking of deep cover spy work, so it could be that his "MI-5" role has typecast him a little bit in my mind.  Peter Firth (who plays Harry) has had a significant stage career in addition to his film and TV work.  He's always interesting to watch.

    It's beeen years since I last watched "Sandbaggers", but I know it's out on DVD.  It was a British series from the late 1970s that first moved spy television away from the usual James Bond fantasies and towards John LeCarre's games of deceit and death.  The series was something of an ensemble piece, but it's main star was Roy Marsden, who later played Adam Dalgliesh in a bunch of excellent P.D. James adaptations on "Mystery".  If you like the tradecraft aspect of "MI-5", you might enjoy "The Sandbaggers" (although TV production budgets were a lot smaller in 1979 than they are in 2009).


    Yankees are on my Tube (none / 0) (#3)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:36:55 PM EST
    and I'm going to take a break from the insanity of health care and retire to the kitchen.

    On the up side, I've been communicating with my poultry farmer (who also raises lamb) about getting "spare parts" for my pets. I have a good source for pet meats (I feed a raw diet to them), but being able to get more from a farmer that is supplying my food, just rocks, imo :) Their chickens are beyond delicious and I've been to the farm, so I'm very excited for Saturday's chicken pick up where I'll get chicken necks and organs for my felines along with my produce/fruit/poultry/eggs.

    Oh, and I almost got into a smack down with one of my wine guys over Vick. I noticed the other that knows me better gave me my space  ;) The new guy just doesn't have the same compassion as me, and the owners and other employees of the shop. The owners are die hard republicans (I don't go there with them), but we meet quite nicely on all things animal, growing, cooking, etc. But especially, abused animals. Strays tend to know to show up in their shop, and my backyard/front door.

    Tomatoes (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:51:31 AM EST
    I'm deep into tomato sauce-making and canning.  They will not wait!

    I finally think I've picked up the dread late blight, too, though I'll have to check again tomorrow to be sure.  My plants are already nearly dead from early blight and I think septoria leaf spot anyway, so it's hard to be sure.  My neighbor about a half mile away and around the corner got it about a week ago, so I'm not surprised.

    An organic farm in my town has fabulous chicken, but it's just too darn expensive for me on a regular basis, blast it.  That is incredibly sweet and delicious chicken, but I can only justify it a couple times a year for special occasions.


    Ever since you led me to "Tomatoville" (none / 0) (#48)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:43:08 AM EST
    I've been telling all my friends and neighbors to go to the website. Tomatoes were a big topic of converstaion at my BBQ last week.

    I finally threw the sad remains of the Roma and Early Girl plants into yard waste for this morning's pick-up. The Momotaro's, on the other hand, are proving to be exceptionally sweet.

    There's always next year...


    I'm going to make an effort (none / 0) (#54)
    by nycstray on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 07:42:44 AM EST
    this week to try and get some tomatoes for canning. I figure if I hit a couple different markets between Wed and Fri, I have a chance. I need to check the blog for the Union Sq farmers market to see if they have tomatoes and there's a market on the south side of my 'hood that should have them along with hot peppers (they cater to a more Hispanic customer base). I'd like to can some roasted peppers along with tomatoes.

    It's great that your tomatoes came in in amounts you could sauce and can! And we have better weather for canning now also. No longer too hot for boiling vats on the stove :)

    We're getting crab apples right now, so I've been making small batches of old fashion crab apple jelly to use for sauces and such. We also got some Pink Pearl apples that I need to decide what to do with before they get eaten, lol!~


    Saw a t-shirt at Northern Sun: (none / 0) (#57)
    by DFLer on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:33:03 AM EST
    "I eat local
    (pictures of mason jars)
    Because I can"

    picture here

    Don't forget, extra tomatoes freeze well. I freeze them whole, defrost for fresh sauce or salsa in the winter. Can't deal with the work of canning.


    Great T-shirt!! (none / 0) (#58)
    by nycstray on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:42:34 AM EST
    I'm not freezing as much this year because I'm moving at some point across country. I did freeze tomatoes in the past. And sauces. Big freezer fan here, lol!~

    One thing I like about canning over freezing is the lack of de-frost time. Many times I just wing it while cooking and being able to grab a small jars of tomatoes to toss in on the fly is very handy :)


    In TV Limbo (none / 0) (#4)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:37:39 PM EST
    Weeds is done...Hung is almost done....waiting for Dexter and Survivor, and the next HBO show.

    And, I have to confess to a gleeful morbid anticipation of the new Jay Leno show. I think it is going to be a horrible show and crash of epic proportions. The ads aren't even close to funny. Sorry Jay fans. Yes, I'm a horrible person.

    When does Jay start? (none / 0) (#7)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:43:35 PM EST
    and what station is he on? Want to avoid at all costs ;)

    I'm excited football is back and the season starts of some decent shows and a few new shows that look like they have a chance. I'm not seeing promos for brain dead comedies, so that gives me "hope".


    Ditto on being excited about football... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 10:24:13 PM EST
    no interest, really, in Leno, prime-time or any time; just seems like a waste of the 10 pm time slot.

    Oh, well...

    Looking forward to Glee and the return of Bones, already into Top Chef and Project Runway, Iron Chef America.  NBC has two medical dramas - Mercy and Trauma - that I will check out, too.

    I am at the beach and coping with Comcast - I love DirecTV so much more now!

    If the sun would come out, I would (1) not give a hoot what was on TV, and (2) probably not give a hoot whatever else was going on in the world.



    Those medical dramas caught my eye (none / 0) (#56)
    by nycstray on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:30:32 AM EST
    also. And the new Jerry Bruckenhiemer (sp?!) show which I think stars Christian Slater.

    Oct should be a good sports month for me, football and the Yanks in post season.

    The beach eh? I love the beach for walking and relaxing, especially when it's fogged in :) Enjoy your time there!


    I think the last week in Sept. (none / 0) (#11)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 08:56:05 PM EST
    on NBC at 10 EST - every single weeknight. Crash, I'm telling you. Spectacularly.

    I forget what I was watching on NBC this weekend, but the ads were on every 10 minutes. At lest he can't blame them for not promoting it.  From what I can tell, he pretty much reads the paper and laughs at headlines. Like you and I do with our own friends and family, except not as funny.   I'm sure there is more to it...but that's all the ads show.


    Walking a line here (none / 0) (#16)
    by Spamlet on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 09:28:03 PM EST
    but I'll pose two questions, just once:

    1. Does Hillary Clinton leave the State Department to spend more time with her family before the 2012 election, or does she wait until after?

    2. If it's understood that the Democratic Party's caucus system for presidential primaries is flawed and should be reformed or scrapped, will it do any good to reform or scrap it if party leaders just ignore the Democratic voters in big blue states and nominate whomever they choose?

    Discuss among yourselves.

    I think you are right, Donald. (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Radiowalla on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 11:32:25 PM EST
    I supported Obama after the primaries, although it wasn't all that cheerfully.  Right now, I feel the administration is under attack from very noxious quarters and I feel it is my duty to support them.

    I regret (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Spamlet on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 11:51:06 PM EST
    that my somewhat idle speculation apparently left room to be interpreted as an attack on Barack Obama. It was not intended that way.

    The "fine line" I thought I was walking was the one understandably drawn by Jeralyn with regard to refighting the primaries--an activity that I have no patience for. If I gave the impression of doing that, pardon me.

    I agree on the attacks from noxious quarters. Certainly. But "duty" to support Obama? Really? I wish Obama were supporting me instead of trying to make common cause with some of his attackers, at least those government.


    I feel no duty at all to support him (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:16:13 AM EST
    I gave him my vote. He needs to prove he deserved it. So far, I'm not very convinced.

    The Mother Jones piece really hit home for me. And all the recent whining from certain quarters of the left regarding how mean those Republicans are! just fills me with more disdain for the spineless Dems.


    It's interesting, I think, to realize (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:29:27 AM EST
    that some people seem to feel that having voted for someone requires them to continue to provide support, while others feel that having voted for someone requires the person who got that vote to live up to it.

    As someone who could not give any candidate her vote, I would most like to be proved wrong for withholding that vote, but so far...it's been a huge disappointment, and I have seen nothing from Obama that makes me sorry I did not vote for him.


    To be fair, I think (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Spamlet on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:36:48 AM EST
    the previous poster framed his/her declaration of support in terms of the noxious attacks on the administration, which we've all witnessed in recent weeks. It has to remind one of Whitewater, Ken Starr, etc., in that the attacks are not on substance but are clearly intended to destroy a legitimate president (by contrast with the illegitimate evil clown they foisted on us for eight long years). That said, I'm bothered by the idea that anyone has a "duty" to support any politician, especially a president.

    I can agree with all of that (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:25:17 AM EST
    Even though I think the Clintons' WH experience should have prepared the Obama team for the GOP attacks to come. Instead, I get the feeling Obama actually believed he could charm the GOPers with his post-partisan unity schtick.

    When it comes to "duty" ... I feel it's my duty to hold my public officials accountable, whoever they may be.

    If he does right by me, he'll get my support in the future.


    Mine too (none / 0) (#44)
    by Spamlet on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:32:45 AM EST
    If he does right by me, he'll get my support in the future.

    The future starts tomorrow.


    Thank you, Spamlet, (none / 0) (#61)
    by Radiowalla on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 04:51:35 PM EST
    for expressing my views in a fuller, more articulate way.
    "Duty" wasn't the best choice of words, but you captured my motives perfectly.

    I hope you and the others are right (none / 0) (#49)
    by Spamlet on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:45:14 AM EST
    I and a few others here happen to disagree with you

    Duty to support (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by SeaMBA on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 11:51:59 PM EST
    Damn.  It is his duty to step up.  We shouldn't have to support him when he squandered the mandate that he was given.

    He never understood the game he was playing to begin with.  The post-partisan schtick was nice in a perfect world, but the Conservatives don't play that game.  He doesn't know how to lead, only take credit.  He never believed in giving health care to all Americans.

    He might yet turn out to be a great president.  That will only happen if Progressives pressure him to live up to the fantasy that they had of him.


    Disagree (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:10:42 AM EST
    I think he absolutely believes in it.  Think of his mother, for God's sake.  I think it's emotionally deeply embedded in him.

    But there are also some crossed wires in there, ones that push him rather urgently towards comity and mutual respect and bipartisanship, yada, yada, yada.

    He believes, for emotional-psychological reasons of his own, that all those nice things only he has hope of achieving will pave the way ultimately towards fixing all kinds of stuff, whereas flat-out to-the-mattresses partisan warfare will only make things overall worse, even if you win the particular battle in question.

    I think he's flat-out wrong and deceiving himself, but I think that's an approximation of his thinking.


    HRC is NOT (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:00:24 AM EST
    going to run against an incumbent Dem. president.  No way.  Under no circumstances. Nah gah happen.

    I amaze me (and not in a good way) that anybody who supports her could be so oblivious to who she is as to think that she would.

    As for 2016, it's too far away.  I'd be surprised if she's ruled it out, but there are too many variables between now and then to have any idea whether she'd go for it or not.  I hope she does, but who knows.

    Your number 2 makes no sense to me.  The point of any reform would be to make that impossible.  That said, I doubt very much they'll reform it.  To do so would be to admit they screwed up big time in 2007/8.  Also nah gah happen.


    I agree (none / 0) (#42)
    by Spamlet on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:19:02 AM EST
    HRC is NOT going to run against an incumbent Dem. president. No way. Under no circumstances. Nah gah happen.

    Of course. As I said, no Democrat will primary Obama in 2012. Maybe I should have added that no one who is currently a Democrat will form or join a third party in order to run against Obama in 2012. No matter what, the Democrats will not throw Obama over, not after Teddy Kennedy's challenge to Carter, even though no one points--or, in 1968, pointed--the finger at Eugene McCarthy or Robert Kennedy for challenging LBJ.

    My speculative look ahead was premised on the assumption that there would be plenty of warning signals of an impending Obama defeat in 2012, and on the need for any potential nominee now serving in the Obama administration to get in the best position for a run in 2016.


    Sure (none / 0) (#22)
    by Spamlet on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 10:22:36 PM EST
    My comment history shows that I'm neither an Obot nor a Hillary nostalgist.

    But I do see an electoral train wreck up ahead.

    BTD thinks Hillary will be president one day. I'm not so sure about that, but let's say he's right. No one, least of all Hillary, will be audacious enough to primary Obama in 2012 (though perhaps someone should be). So she would have to start somewhere. Where and when will it be?

    As for Obama's eight months in office, how much more damage can he do to the Democrats over the next three and a half years? We'll see, won't we?

    And I say this in the waning hope that he will succeed, the present doleful appearances notwithstanding.


    I'm game on answering (none / 0) (#47)
    by cawaltz on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:39:58 AM EST
    I doubt Hillary leaves before 2012. She seems to be a pretty loyal person.

    I believe that the people who decide to stay in the party should attempt to reform the process even if it means having to fight the DNC power structure.


    Swine flu vs. pigskin (none / 0) (#19)
    by Cream City on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 09:52:02 PM EST
    Madison, Wis., media report as many as 30 Badgers -- UW football players -- have the flu and are being tested for swine flu.

    Hundreds of students on campus have confirmed cases, less than a week since the semester started.  This one could be tough to trace back to its source, as a third of UW-Madison students are not from the state.  They come from almost every state and many territories and countries. . . .

    Swine flu is going to (none / 0) (#41)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:13:31 AM EST
    sweep over the whole country.  I've read that something like 30 percent of hard-hit college communities have come down with it, which is a huge percentage for such things.

    But as long as it doesn't mutate into a more dangerous form, which it could do at any time, it's a minor hassle.  Most people who get it, I gather, are back on their feet in 3 or 4 days, so it's actually milder than most seasonal flus.


    US Open and Melanie Oudin (none / 0) (#20)
    by Xclusionary Rule 4ever on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 09:54:46 PM EST
    Love it when an underdog shocks the world. She has made the open worth watching thus year. Monfils and Nadal are playing pretty amazing tennis right now too.

    Missed warehouse 13 tonight bc of tennis. Will catch it on hulu tomorrow!

    David Corn (none / 0) (#24)
    by Spamlet on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 11:26:15 PM EST
    earlier today on Twitter:

    Gibbs says K St has gotten copy of Baucus hcr bill but White House hasn't gotten it yet. The right pecking order?

    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 11:56:26 PM EST
    K St should get it first so that they can draft any changes they need before Obama sees it.

    So it seems (none / 0) (#30)
    by Spamlet on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 11:59:37 PM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#25)
    by cawaltz on Tue Sep 08, 2009 at 11:32:15 PM EST
    I hope he really means what he says when he says this is the line in the sand and the progressive blogosphere isn't going any farther on compromises.
    I'm not sure that it'll matter though because Obama's referendum isn't for another 3+ years. I

    Seems like (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Spamlet on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:25:16 AM EST
    Markos meant to say that the progressive blogosphere has drawn a line in the sand. But what he actually said with his Waterloo allusion is that the progressive blogosphere is holding firm for a big defeat. Fightin' words, those.

    I'm giving him the benefit :) (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by cawaltz on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:46:42 AM EST
    It couldn't have been easy for him to do what he did. He looked uncomfortable and all too aware of how much of his political capital was poured into getting Obama the Presidency. I don't envy him his position.

    It's nice that he realizes this policy is important enough to do anything(including begging) to get Obama'a attention and let him know exactly where the blogosphere stands on this.

    I'm not the least convinced he's going to be effective particularly when it doesn't really sound like he is ready to contemplate an "or else" case scenario.


    It's a sad little video (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:19:48 AM EST