Legacy of September 11th

I wonder how many years it will take us to undo the humiliating Bush-Cheney legacy of disrespect for the Constitution and our fundamental principles of justice, and the damage to America's reputation in the world, brought by their regime of torture, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, extraordinary renditions, Ghost Air, military commission trials and other wrong-headed reactions to the attacks of September 11, 2001.

Good reading: An op-ed about Dick Cheney in today's Miami Herald, Fear Was No Excuse for Torture by Charles C. Krulak and Joseph P. Hoar, former top USMC Generals.

“[W]e never imagined that we would feel duty-bound to publicly denounce a Vice President of the United States,” .... “we feel we must repudiate his dangerous ideas – and his scare tactics.”

If you have any thoughts about the 9/11 attacks, which were 8 years ago today, here's a thread for them.

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    Loss of innocence (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by CST on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:54:09 AM EST
    For a whole generation.  Growing up in the 90's you thought peace and prosperity was a way of life not a phase.

    Today I'm thinking about my friends and classmates who paid the ultimate price for that legacy.

    watching that replay this morning (none / 0) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:59:07 AM EST
    what struck me was the sort of clueless innocence that slowly slipped away as the reality of what had happened became clear.

    Just another loss of innocence (none / 0) (#9)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:30:56 AM EST
    for my kids growing up in that era.  Two years before, Columbine had begun the process, as they endured repeated disruptions of their schooling for bomb scares and increasingly intrusive security measures -- so that already had sent the message that we could not keep them safe.

    But 9/11 being an attack on the nation has been useful to those studying history, as they can relate to the impact of earlier events on earlier generations -- the JFK assassination and the attack on Pearl Harbor, for example.  Many generations have had to grow up in fear.  

    What concerns me about the aftereffects of 9/11 is that it was used and abused by our national government to instill unreasonable fear.  And younger generations are beginning to see that, so they may also have the aftereffect of Vietnam and Watergate for my generation: distrust and downright skepticism about anything the government tells us.  Maybe that's not a bad thing, but it is the real loss of innocence.


    I think (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by CST on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 01:10:05 PM EST
    9/11 was different in the sense that it came from a foreign place, something we had no control over.  It was vastly different from Columbine and even the Oklahoma city bombings in that we knew there was violence within our own culture, but we didn't really think other people could hurt us.

    I just know that for a lot of us, there is life before that and life after that, in a way that no other event in my lifetime can compare.

    I don't think it was a loss of innocence for everyone, certainly not my parents who came of age with the turmoil in the 60s.  But for a certain group, there was a sense that we were invincible as a nation to outside harm.  We didn't remember the cold war, we didn't remember the fights of the 60s, or WWII, all of that was history.  The idea that I would see my classmates go to war was unfathomable to me before that day.


    My father who is a little older than a boomer. (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by AX10 on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:27:05 PM EST
    Year 2000, he believed that peace between Israel and Palestine was around the corner.
    The Balkan conflict was over and it looked like we may be free of any significant military action.

    The millennium opened with great optimism.
    My first vote for President was for Al Gore.
    Even with the stolen election, I believed that Bush would be a one-term wonder/loser.It appeared that way until 9/11.

    I knew that after 09/11/2001, something has changed and time was not going to turn back.

    I also, knew that Bush and Company were going to exploit 09/11 for all it was worth.

    See my post below.


    I think that's mature thinking (none / 0) (#58)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 12, 2009 at 10:47:01 AM EST
    from an adult viewpoint.  I was replying to the comment about those growing up then, and my kids were not of an age to make such distinctions.  Foreign borders are closer to them than Colorado, so it was something from afar that affected their lives almost daily in the constant school bomb scares, heightened school security and fears, etc.

    I grew up during the 1990's. (none / 0) (#10)
    by AX10 on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:50:26 AM EST
    So for me it was a real horrible shock.

    Read the Fourth Turning.


    The initial shock (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by cal1942 on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:11:30 AM EST
    had my mind racing.  Left a meeting downtown when the news was all out and headed to a restaurant with a big screen TV.  Ordered lunch but could only choke down a couple of bites.

    Getting back to the office a member of my staff asked if he could leave for the rest of the day.  He was visably rattled.

    About 4 PM another shock struck me like a thunder bolt.  I realized that the Bush administration would play on this and use it to get anything they wanted and we were probably in for a very rough ride.

    I distinctly remember thinking... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Dadler on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:24:05 AM EST
    ...as I watched the awful thing unfold, that there were a lot of innocent people far away, who had nothing to do with it, who would soon face violent death at our hands.

    i wish i had been wrong.

    I think, for me, it was the first time (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:56:48 AM EST
    in my then-48 years that I felt so vulnerable in what had always been a safe environment.  Working in Baltimore, just 40 miles from DC, in a block that had the federal district courthouse, the IRS and INS, and our own trade center building, all just blocks from the harbor, made us all feel like sitting ducks.  To make matters worse, my husband was in Philadelphia, and both my kids were in school.  

    Our firm's management closed for the day, and then things got really complicated.  Barricades had been set up and roads closed that went past municipal buildings, so it took me three hours just to get out of the city - the entire time, I had no idea whether my kids were still in school, on their way home, and I could not reach my husband.  And we had no idea if more attacks were coming.  It took every bit of talking to myself not to panic at the idea that on a day when maybe the world as we knew it was coming to an end, I might not get to be with the people I loved the most - not being able to be with my kids, to comfort them, was a new and unbelievably terrible feeling.

    I got home, the kids made it shortly thereafter, and I finally spoke to my husband - all of that helped, but that fear I had never had before was hard to shake, really hard.

    As bad as that fear was, I still managed to hold onto principles that had served us well for a long, long time - I never felt that fear should justify torture and indefinite detention and black site prisons and rendition and warrantless surveillance and war with Iraq.

    It was a terrible day, but the choices that were made in its wake - by both the media and the government - have not served us well.  I was hoping for some changes in that regard, and I am saddened and angered that this does not seem to be happening.

    Not a loss of innocence. (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Fabian on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:09:29 PM EST
    More like a loss of faith in our government.  There's always some deception, some corruption, some blatant partisan shenanigans going on in D.C.  The WTC had suffered previous attacks, so another one, even a dramatically effective one, wasn't a big deal to me.  

    The utter cr@p coming from the White House was appalling.  At first I thought it was classic Bush: "Go shopping!".  Then I realized it was something different when the hostile attacks on patriotism started.  "Why do you hate America?"

    My disconnect might have something to do with the fact that I was home with a wee babe at the time and didn't get out much.  NPR & PBS provided most of my news, so I was thankfully ignorant of the worst that mainstream media had to offer.

    The company my boyfriend works (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by vml68 on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:14:15 PM EST
    for had their offices in the south tower. They lost quite a few people that day. He said that no one at work talks about it or their experiences that day. And the only time he has heard it mentioned was when he was looking for some records on an old project and his boss informed him that they were destroyed then.

    My one fireman buddy... (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 01:17:07 PM EST
    has never been the same guy since...I think he feels a lot of guilt because by the time he was called to duty and got downtown the towers had fell and so many of his comrades had perished.  He gets so down in the dumps we all worry about him to this day.

    A pretty hardcore conservative guy too...and he gets red in the face at any mention of Rudy...he can't stand that motherf*cker...its one of the few things we agree on politically.  But we try to stay away from such topics for the sake of our lifelong friendship...he's a nuke every Arab country type and I can't stomach hearing that crap.


    Well (5.00 / 6) (#17)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:19:22 PM EST
    I believe our national leaders purposefully implementing a program of torture is far worse than what you describe, but to each his own.

    9/11 (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by VaLiberal on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:55:00 PM EST
    9/11 to me is the symbol of a huge unlearned lesson in the U.S., then, before then, and now.  The lesson has to do with being ignorant of the effects we have in the world as well as being ignorant of other peoples beyond our own borders and their cultures, and completely disrespectful of their sovereignty, whether we manifest it in economic terms or military terms.
    The people who died and the people who still suffer deserve to be acknowledged.  At the same time, it's looking to me like we are in the beginnings of fetishizing this day.
    Just my opinion.

    to put it another way (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 02:39:54 PM EST
    I dont think we lost our innocence because of the attack.  I think we lost our innocence because we allowed ourselves to be led down the path the Bush administration took.  with very little protest when it came down to it.  

    the world would never see us the same way again and we would never see ourselves the same way again.

    A few thoughts about today and the past 8 years. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by AX10 on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:21:31 PM EST
    Bush used 9/11 as his excuse.

    By Labor Day, people were having serious
    doubts regarding his legitimacy.
    Then BAM!  The perfect "excuse" for
    getting everything they (Republicans) ever wanted.

    Bush had a chance to ask people to do something.
    He told us to "go shopping".
    Anyone who questioned any aspect of Bush's
    policies were slandered as being "unpatriotic".
    Oppose tax cuts for the

    A true leader would guide followers to do what
    is needed at that time.
    They would have worked to change the course
    of the country/humanity for the better.

    Instead we got violation after violation of the law.
    We got torture and the brutal gang rape of the
    United States Constitution.

    Also, do not get me started on the Dixie Chicks fiasco.
    I am not forgoving of the Southern Good Ole Boys Klub
    that went after them.  And no, I do not like Country "music".
    They stand for ignorance, which I oppose.

    I grew up in the 50s (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by eliz0414 on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:26:31 PM EST
    so I can't really relate to the feeling of suddenly not feeling safe in the world.  When your childhood includes air raid drills side by side with fire drills and your adolescent memories include wondering for days during the Cuban missile crisis whether the world would end today or tomorrow, you really don't cherish any illusion of safety in this world.  The 90s were a brief pause in the madness, but I spent the decade dreading some incident that would put an end to the dreaming. On Sept. 11 my reaction was, "There it is..." and great concern for my two sons, who were 18 and 21 at the time. Memories of the Vietnam draft were still fresh in my mind.  I also remember asking all day, "Where is the president? Where is Bush? Why isn't he on the TV trying to reassure everyone that things are under contol?"

    And has everyone simply forgotten (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Spamlet on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 04:56:07 PM EST
    about Oklahoma City? The only terrists who count are furriners? How safe have any of us felt walking into a federal building of any kind since April 19, 1995?

    Forgotten, or only know what MSM said? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Yes2Truth on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 06:04:39 PM EST

    O.City was almost certainly a covert intelligence
    operation.  Like the 93' WTC "bomb bing" and 911.

    Any thoughts on the 1969 moon walk? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Spamlet on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 06:34:45 PM EST
    "There it is" (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 06:39:23 PM EST
    Exact same reaction I had.  I'm of your same generation, and you've expressed my world view up to that point exactly.

    I remember being taken up to the roof of an apartment building in the city as a child to see Sputnik 2 go by.  In the depths of the Cold War and daily terror of nuclear annhilation, Sputnik was flat-out terrifying.

    I never, ever felt safe, either.


    September 11th... (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:45:47 PM EST
    I had served in the Army and in Multiple conflicts during years previous to 9/11, multipe conflicts, multiple continents. I state this only for context.

    I personally went into concern mode after the USS Cole was attacked. the 1009 attack on the trade centers didn't affect me much because I was overseas involved in conflict then, and the incident itself didn't cause a rise in my tension, per se. I should say that concern mode to me would be DEFCON 3 or 2.5 in the old rating scale. High alert, but not an imminent attack. Of course, I didn't have access to intelligence information in 2001 any more, either. Didn't want it.

    The attack took me by surprise. I had been on the margins for some years, and had grown complacent. 9/11 rocked me. If you've ever boxed, gotten hit by a stronger, more talented opponent, with a body shot, such as one to the  kidneys, that's how I felt. Weak, impotent, helpless.

    But even with that feeling and my underlying southern hawkish patiotism, I was SCARED because of who the President was. I knew he had surrounded himself with weak, pusillanimous people. I hoped for the best.

    I didn't see the best in the reactions from most of our elected leadership. I saw cowardice and deference to an authority that had ALLOWED such an attack and tragedy happen on his watch.

    My military career and my academic career contain a similar foundation. Truth. We can't know 'absolute truth,' but I was taugght to accept the truth, whether it was a failure on my part, and to accept the responsibility for it.

    Nobody took responsibility for the failings that led to 9/11. That was a failure of leadership.

    Because there was no 'failure,' only airplanes hitting the twin towers, the pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania, nobody at the highest levels of leadership (elected. I will easily assume that the military culture did so)had been at fault, and there was no need for self-reflection.

    Heck, more to say, but this is already too long.

    I saw Sept. 11 as a horrific day of death and carnage. My fears of the consequences were borne out because some people are too concerned about being right. Sadly, not much has changed in terms of that attitude.

    Non-military, but I had the same (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 06:42:57 PM EST
    reaction.  I didn't find out about the events until after it was all over and we pretty much knew the extent of it, so I got it all in one big package.  Very nearly my first thought was terror at what Bush was likely to do in response.  I thought there was a very good chance he would declare national martial law and then nuke somebody.  At least that didn't happen.

    It was a terrible day (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Sep 12, 2009 at 08:40:19 AM EST
    And I don't mean to belittle it in any way but it wasn't the only terrible I've ever had either.  The family all agreed yesterday that the media causing us all to relive time and again the trauma of it is now beginning to venture into the realms of advocating for the whole country to live in a state of chronic depression.  I'm sure that it is great for ratings though.

    it's ALL ratings (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dadler on Sat Sep 12, 2009 at 09:30:49 AM EST
    relive the terror and they will come.  sad but true for too many people.  no different than being incapable of slowing down to see if anyone's body is mangled in the freeway after a car accident.

    The Official 9/11 Version Isn't True (1.20 / 5) (#25)
    by Yes2Truth on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 02:50:14 PM EST

    Bush said he would provide proof that OBL masterminded 9/11.  To date, no such proof has been offered.  In fact, OBL is not even on the FBI's Most Wanted List for 9/11.

    Two of the 9/11 airline flights were NOT even scheduled for that date.  The BTS does NOT show lift off time or the tail numbers for FL 77 (Pentagon flight) or FL 11.  

    AA ITSELF said that FL 77 wasn't scheduled for
    9/11.  The day before and the day AFTER, but not on 9/11.

    It doesn't take much study to realize that 9/11
    was an inside job.

    I don't say this often, but (none / 0) (#27)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:17:16 PM EST
    you're not very bright. Go back to the Glenn Beck show.  

    I don't usually respond to nonsense, but (none / 0) (#33)
    by Yes2Truth on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:30:42 PM EST

    you seem to be one of those people who actually
    prefers nonsense to sense.

    Oh, and it didn't escape notice that you failed to
    rebut anything I said.  Now THAT'S the Glenn Beck
    show specialty.  


    Smile and post some more. (none / 0) (#36)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:46:53 PM EST
    pfft (none / 0) (#34)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:43:48 PM EST
    None of you people can never explain Barbara Olson. But I have a simple explanation for why you can't: you're just not that smart.

    Barbara Olson - Explained (none / 0) (#41)
    by Yes2Truth on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:25:25 PM EST

    Many people wonder how it can be explained that
    though no plane crashed at the Pentagon, her DNA was recovered there.  Furthermore, how could it be that she called her husband while aboard FL 77 - allegedly moments before it crashed.

    I think that what happened is this.  Mrs. Olson was asked to participate in a secret exercise in which a commercial airliner was hijacked and then crashed into the Pentagon.

    Mrs. Olson probably went directly to the Pentagon and was taken to the reinforced section of the building - the section which later collapsed.

    There, she was given a script which described hijackers wearing bandannas and who proceeded to hijack the plane using box cutters as weapons.

    She probably read or ad-libbed the script which was recorded.  A phone call may well have been placed to husband Ted's office and the recording was played...most likely to an aide of Ted's, and its contents were then told to Ted.

    Did the Olsons actually have a live, two-way conversation?  No.  If such had taken place, we would have been offered proof of the event, in the form of telephone billing records etc.

    Mrs. Olson perished, along with many others, whenever explosives and fires erupted in the
    reinforced section of the building where she was.



    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Spamlet on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:29:16 PM EST
    That makes perfect sense.

    Straight over your head, as expected (none / 0) (#42)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:29:02 PM EST
    There is no explanation for why "they: would want to kill her.

    But that's it, you're a waste of my time, so no more responses.


    Official Sins, Inherited Guilt (none / 0) (#46)
    by Yes2Truth on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:54:22 PM EST

    Why would "they" want to kill thousands of Iraqis,
    Afghan civilians, Pakistani civilians etc.?

    Who told you that anyone "WANTED" to kill Barbara


    Anonymity is your friend. (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:36:15 PM EST
    Heck, I was going to (none / 0) (#45)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:47:58 PM EST
    ask why Pi isn't equal to 3.0 (since it's obviously a plot by the Catholic Church, the Trileterlists, the Bilderburgers and the Rothschilds-- to whom all of the Bushes and Clintons are related, with Barack Obama as a non-married mother's son, they continue to lie why? Whyyyy? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?)?

    I was simply wondering (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by nycstray on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 06:12:26 PM EST
    if someone was off their meds . . . Oy.

    I hate to say this, but (none / 0) (#3)
    by SeeEmDee on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:03:48 AM EST
    The culture of lawlessness on the part of our supposed leaders was created during the DrugWar with its' savaging of civil rights being winked at and tacitly encouraged (to 'save the children', of course), and since that was not vociferously challenged by so-called 'progressives' back then, that culture of lawlessness was emboldened to the point that said lawlessness was extended to other spheres of governmental policy.

    It took decades for the cultural zeitgeist to change from the rise of well-earned mistrust of government (thanks to Viet Nam and the Nixon regime leading to more citizen participation in government) to the present state where people were ejected from Bush Too (not a typo, he is his 'father's son') functions for wearing innocuous T-shirts, heads of state offer defenses of torture  and lie us into wars.

    It's going to take more decades until the culture of lawlessness on the part of government is uprooted. And that won't happen so long as there's a tacit agreement that some abrogations of civil rights are acceptable because only a 'few people' are affected. Or, to paraphrase Pastor Niemoller: "First they came for the druggies..." We all know where that kind of thinking has led...and I maintain, Mr. Obama notwithstanding, will lead.

    How Long? (none / 0) (#5)
    by tokin librul on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:19:56 AM EST
    I wonder how many years it will take us to undo the humiliating Bush-Cheney legacy

    Undo it? never.

    Paper it over? Another year or two, until they turn Sept 11 into a holiday and replace Labor Day with it.

    I look forward to the "Sale" ads: "We're Blowing UP High Prices, And Bringing DOWN Interest Rates...!

    why wait (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:25:21 AM EST
    ew.... (none / 0) (#38)
    by sj on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 04:50:18 PM EST
    warn me next time...

    sorry (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 04:59:51 PM EST
    my bad
    I couldnt think of a better example of exploitation.

    WSWS: The pretext for a historic shift in world (none / 0) (#7)
    by Andreas on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:24:43 AM EST
    The WSWS writes:

    The least credible of 9/11 stories is the official one: that 19 Arab terrorists, recruited and directed by Osama bin Laden, entered the United States over a period of many months, underwent, in some cases, extensive training as pilots at private American flight schools, and then carried out their acts of suicide and mass murder without the vast US intelligence apparatus having the slightest knowledge of their presence or purpose.

    Many established facts contradict this story: several of the terrorists, including Mohammed Atta, the reputed operational leader, and alleged 9/11 hijackers Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar and Ziad Samir Jarrah, were under surveillance by US intelligence agencies during the time of the preparation of the attacks. The US government received repeated warnings of the impending attack--including the notorious briefing of President George W. Bush on August 6, 2001, with a CIA memorandum headlined, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Within US"--which were ignored.

    Just as significant is the historical pedigree of the terrorist organization blamed for the attack: its leader, Osama bin Laden, and many of its key cadres had been enlisted as Washington's allies and counted as CIA "assets" in a US-funded effort to overturn a Soviet-backed regime in Afghanistan. The Taliban regime in Afghanistan, bin Laden's ally and protector, was also a product of US intrigues, albeit indirectly: it was established and promoted by the Pakistan intelligence service ISI, a key ally of the CIA in the anti-Soviet war of 1979-1989, to seize power after Soviet withdrawal.

    For all the congressional and media criticism of an alleged CIA "intelligence failure," 9/11 far more likely represented a deliberate decision at some level of the US military/intelligence apparatus to allow known terrorists to go about their business, in the expectation they would provide the necessary pretext for a radical shift in American foreign and domestic policy.

    Eight years since 9/11
    The pretext for a historic shift in world politics

    11 September 2009

    The trouble with conspiracy theories (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Spamlet on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 02:06:05 PM EST
    is that they credit the alleged malefactors with a level of competence that the bad guys and their organizations have not displayed in any other context.

    sometimes, there's not enough (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:18:29 PM EST

    Also, dude, (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Spamlet on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 04:18:44 PM EST
    even if everything you say is absolutely correct, I don't think your ideas will get a fair hearing on this blog, since you're commenting under the umbrella of the World Socialist Web Site. Certainly not from me.

    Why? Because I, for one, am old enough to remember the Young Socialist Alliance and how its members shoved their way to the front of every vaguely leftist march or demonstration--antiwar, daycare on campus, labor rights, equal pay for women, safe and legal abortion, what have you--on the grounds that every movement needs a "vanguard," and then proceeded to drown out the demonstrators and alienate the observers with demands for World Marxism Now or whatever other panacea the YSA was pushing at any particular time. Some of us thought that some of you, if not outright dupes, must have been infiltrators from the FBI.

    Is my attitude fair? Rational? Of course not. But bad manners have consequences.

    In theory, of course, socialism is a lovely idea. And I would still like to see so-called socialized medicine in our country, on the model of France and other European countries, even after having lived for a couple of years under the "President of the Revolutionary Government of the Armed Forces" in South America, a leftist general who had seized power in a coup.


    YSA was an annoying joke (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 06:34:22 PM EST
    on my campus in the late '60s, early '70s.

    YSA (none / 0) (#53)
    by Andreas on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 08:09:40 PM EST
    The Young Socialist Alliance (YSA) was controlled by the Socialist Workers Party (SWP).

    The World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) is published by the International Committee of The Fourth International (ICFI). The ICFI was created to defend Trotskyism against the revisionism represented by the SWP.

    The Heritage We Defend
    A Contribution to the History of the Fourth International

    By David North


    You are right (none / 0) (#54)
    by Spamlet on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:32:13 PM EST
    and I still don't care. I'm cranky and unreasonable on this point. But thank you for the clarification.

    um (none / 0) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:02:02 PM EST
    But again, no Japanese had the urge to fly airplanes into civilian office towers.

    no they did it at military targets mostly but I dont doubt for a minute that they would have if it had been possible for them.
    and certainly we did things in WWII that were horrible.  the difference is most people saw that as a just war.  after all Japan actually did attack us.  Iraq did not.

    No country attacked us... (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:05:56 PM EST
    a loose band of violent madmen did...I always looked at is a mass murder, not an act of war. But we treated it like a wat, hence all the f*ck-ups and bodybags since.

    Good points. (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 01:30:20 PM EST
    And I will guess you won't find much support beyond me.

    Charles C. Krulak? (none / 0) (#24)
    by FreakyBeaky on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 02:40:21 PM EST
    Son of "Brute" Krulak?  

    Anyway, great op-ed.    

    Innocence (none / 0) (#26)
    by Spamlet on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 02:53:33 PM EST
    in grown-ups is too often a mask of bad faith and an enabler of atrocity. The world can't afford much more of our precious American innocence.

    i would love to discuss what you've said, (none / 0) (#29)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 03:19:29 PM EST
    but I'd rather wait until an open thread.

    Will Osama Bin Laden ever be brought to justice? (none / 0) (#55)
    by john horse on Sat Sep 12, 2009 at 08:19:13 AM EST
    or will he die of old age?

    What terrorists hope to do is to provoke an overreaction to their acts of terrorism.  After 9/11 Bush and Cheney gave Osama Bin Laden all that he could ever hope for by proceeding to overreact by: invading and occupying the wrong country (Iraq), dishonoring our country by authorizing torture, violating our civil liberties.

    And in the end Osama Bin Laden has not been brought to justice.  For all their overreaction and probably because of their overreaction, Bush and Cheney were failures.

    He wanted to bankrupt the United States (none / 0) (#59)
    by sallywally on Sat Sep 12, 2009 at 08:08:24 PM EST
    and he did. In addition, via GWB and Wall Street he brought the entire world to the edge of financial destruction.

    Bin Laden succeeded in his goals way beyond his wildest dreams, I suspect.