Sunday Night Open Thread

Time for a new open thread. Here it is, all topics welcome.

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    What's funnier about this (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:05:52 PM EST
    "You seemed to indicate that as president, you wouldn't necessarily obey court rulings, even the Supreme Court," Fox News host Chris Wallace pointed out during an interview on Sunday. "We have operated under the principle of judicial review since the Marbury v. Madison case in 1803."

    According to the GOP candidate, the United States would be operating under "judicial supremacy" instead of judicial review if bans on same-sex marriage were to be struck down.

    "Presidents have understood that the Supreme Court cannot make a law, they cannot make it, the legislature has to make it, the executive branch has to sign it and enforce it," Huckabee said. "And the notion that the Supreme Court comes up with the ruling and that automatically subjects the two other branches to following it defies everything there is about the three equal branches of government."

    "The Supreme Court is not the supreme branch," he added. "And for God's sake, it's not the Supreme Being."

    Huckabee wondered what would happen if the Supreme Court ruled on "who was going to be the next president."

    Huckleberrys laughable naked pandering or the bit about what would happen IF the court ruled on who would be the next president

    Day-um, I coulda sworn that already happened.

    On the subject of FOX news (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:07:56 PM EST
    Economist Bruce Bartlett, a former adviser to both Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, warned over the weekend that Fox News had damaged the Republican Party by creating a bubble for conservatives to brainwash themselves.

    In his paper "How Fox News Changed American Media and Political Dynamics" published earlier this month, Bartlett theorized that watching the network was essentially "self-brainwashing" for viewers, making them believe that the United States was a more conservative nation than it actually was. And so the Republican Party had responded by running radical conservatives that representative Fox News viewers, but not the true state of the electorate.

    "Many conservatives live in a bubble where they watch only Fox News on television, they listen only to conservative talk radio -- Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, many of the same people," Bartlett told CNN's Brian Stelter on Sunday. "When they go onto the Internet, they look at conservative websites like National Review, Newsmax, World Net Daily."

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:17:58 PM EST
    and you see examples of it everyday, on blogs, people you know and in other ways. The funniest times are when they start shouting stuff out in public places and think everyone agrees with them.

    These candidates like Huckabee are blowing themselves up because they reside in a bubble. Jeb Bush says Iraq wasn't a mistake because he resides in that bubble. Huckabee defends the Druggars because it is what the bubble people want to hear.

    Hysterically today they all had a meltdown because of TPP and not because it's free trade but because it's giving "the dictator" more powers.

    Hmm, is Fox going to change their ways or has it just been too lucrative to keep fleecing the rubes? I say they are going to keep fleecing the rubes until they go off the air.


    Love the term (none / 0) (#17)
    by smott on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:41:59 AM EST
    "Bubble people"...perfect.

    It's Memorial Day (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:28:06 PM EST
    And my thoughts turn to Dick and Knudson and Worley and Montgomery and to all the others.

    I have not forgotten.

    May God's Grace cover you and may you rest in peace.

    Many in my HS class (none / 0) (#36)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:36:26 PM EST
    ...served in Vietnam.  My very good friend and fellow National Merit Scholar was a Marine lieutenant leading combat patrols.

    But not one member of my class died there.

    One returned to civilian life, only to die a few months later while fishing, when a wave swept him off a rock.

    Go figure.


    Have any of them experienced grief (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:39:22 PM EST
    Or PTSD symptoms watching the run up to the Iraq War or experiencing it as a civilian stateside Repack?

    My military service (none / 0) (#47)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:07:00 PM EST
    ...was not in harm's way.  Luck of the draw, because I was a draftee in 1966 and had no say in where I was sent, which turned out to be Texas and Arizona.

    Of course I have contemporaries and friends from my high school class who suffered a lot more than I did.

    The run-up to Iraq was not much different from the run-up to Vietnam.  We were going to "save" some poor people who sat on a lot of oil, from some Evil Empire.


    There was a front page article (none / 0) (#48)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:12:20 PM EST
    in the LAT around the time of the Iraq invasion that reported a very high % of WWII vets then were against said invasion, FWIW.

    Memorial Day (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:57:27 PM EST
    is not about why they fought and died.

    It is a day of memories, of tears and thoughts of what might have been by those who loved and who were loved. For those not involved a respectful silence seems approiate.

    There are no good wars. The dead don't argue about what a President said or make claims of who lied. They lie still and quiet. Their eternity has started.

    Tomorrow is time enough for politics about the wars.

    Politicing. (none / 0) (#72)
    by lentinel on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:29:35 PM EST
    Memorial Day is not about why they fought and died. Tomorrow is time enough for politics about the wars.

    So you say.
    But what you wrote is a political statement.

    It is telling us that we should shut up and grieve, and not talk about those responsible for their needless deaths.

    You add, "The dead don't argue about what a President said or make claims of who lied." So we shouldn't either is the gist I gather.

    You may believe that.
    Your thought might even have merit, although I disagree strongly with it.

    But it is political.


    VOX (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:43:07 PM EST
    It's time we have a holiday to honor those who try to stop wars too

    Memorial Day and Veteran's Day often get equated, but there is an essential distinction between the two. Veteran's Day honors all who have served the American military in wars. Memorial Day honors those who've perished. It's an annual reminder that wars have grave human costs, which must be both recognized and minimized.

    Those costs are not inevitable. We ought to also set aside time to remember those throughout American history who have tried hardest to reduce them, to prevent unnecessary loss of life both American and foreign: war resisters.


    Other countries have started to recognize this and honor their war resisters accordingly. A memorial in Glasgow, Scotland -- a hotbed of British antiwar sentiment during World War I -- commemorates "those who opposed World War One in order to challenge the purpose of the war and the waste of lives." Monuments in Ypres, Belgium and Alrewas, England honor those World War I soldiers who, due both to disillusionment and sheer terror, deserted rather than continue killing in an unjust war. An official monument to Austrian deserters of World War II was unveiled in Vienna last year.

    Polanski! (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by oculus on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:23:41 PM EST

    Let him stay in France (none / 0) (#58)
    by McBain on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:40:09 PM EST
    This was a case where everyone, except the victim, behaved poorly.  The Judge blew it in 1977.  Time to move on.  

    He's gutsy. Filming in (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:42:23 PM EST

    He may be a criminal but he's a tallented (none / 0) (#61)
    by McBain on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:48:59 PM EST
    filmmaker.  Rosemary's Baby, Frantic and The Pianist are my favorites of his work.  I was never a big Chinatown fan.

    If (none / 0) (#62)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:58:21 PM EST
    he was evangelist Christian he would have been forgiven years ago, so there's that. Maybe we could have Polanski direct "Duggars the Movie" and erase a whole truckload of sins.

    Repulsion and The Tenant (none / 0) (#74)
    by Mr Natural on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:49:25 PM EST
    were even better.  Hard core movie fans saw Knife on the Water without subtitles.  I've only seen it (three times) with subtitles.

    Many great films (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:58:44 PM EST
    my personal favorite might be Dearh and the Maiden.  It might also be Sigourney Weavers best work.

    Ha, no (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:06:54 PM EST
    DEATH and the Maiden


    Yes, and it is even more complex than that. Because the whole story leads up to a long monologue by the doctor, brilliantly delivered by Ben Kingsley, so that we must answer not only the question of his guilt or innocence, but the question of its meaning.

    By the time the film arrives at its answers, they have become questions. The most difficult question is, how must we punish the evil? If a man kills, must he then be killed? The most compelling argument against capital punishment, for me, is not that society should not execute, but that society should not make anyone into an executioner.

    "Death and the Maiden" is all about acting. In other hands, even given the same director, this might have been a dreary slog.

    Fetus fight! (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:04:34 PM EST
    An abortion battle in the Texas legislature nearly turned into a fistfight on Sunday night after several Republican women changed their mind about a bill that would ban health insurance from covering abortions.

    According to the Houston Chronicle, House sergeants had to stop Republican state Rep. Jonathan Stickland from attacking Rep. Byron Cook (R) after Senate Bill 575 did not make it to the House floor as he expected.

    Cook had reportedly promised to move SB 575 out of the State Affairs Committee to the Calendars Committee if Stickland agreed to drop an amendment that would have banned abortions based on fetal abnormalities.

    Although Cook kept his word, three Republican women on the Calendars Committee -- Reps. Sarah Davis, Debbie Riddle and Patricia Harless -- backed out of supporting the bill at the last minute and sided with the Democrats, killing the measure with a 7-7 vote.

    At around 9:30 p.m., an enraged Stickland got in Cook's face on the House floor. After a brief yelling match and nearly coming to blows, House sergeants got in between the two to prevent the scuffle from continuing, The Texas Tribune reported.

    On CNN (none / 0) (#1)
    by Repack Rider on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:02:49 PM EST
    Activist Deray McKesson told host Brian Stelter something most people know.  Police kill defenseless people, and then lie about it.  Stelter betrayed his stupidity by actually questioning the factual basis of something anyone can watch on YouTube.

    Mr. McKesson also explained that while unarmed Black protesters are often met with violent arrests, the white bikers who engaged in a shootout in Waco are seen on camera afterward relaxing with the arresting officers.  What's up with violent, criminal, armed WHITE people being treated with such respect?

    Predictably, the h8rs pile on, accusing this intelligent, dignified man of every racist form of contempt.

    Worth checking out.

    Just watching this on C&L (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:08:51 PM EST
    was considering linking to it.

    Was Deray (none / 0) (#6)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:00:30 AM EST
    Asked how much he has earned form his AstroTurf activism? Did he disclose who is funding him? #cutthechecks

    Was he asked why he posted photos of himself with Dorian Johnson on Twitter yesterday only to delete them minutes later?


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:07:07 AM EST
    That didn't take long.

    Quick question, do you have any Black friends?



    Gee, you seem to be following him (none / 0) (#7)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:13:57 AM EST
    pretty closely.  

    Do you have any substantial objections to what he says?  

    Even if either or both of your smears have some basis in fact, what is wrong with what he is saying?


    I do follow him closely (2.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:21:45 AM EST
    Where he goes, riots seem to follow.

    The biggest substantial objection I have regarding the initial post is the disinformation regarding the bikers being all white.
    The mug shots show various races there are many Hispanic names.


    Really, there wouldn't be any riots in Ferguson (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:05:08 AM EST
    or Baltimore if he hadn't shown up when he did?

    it also struck me you could say that about various sports championships, that riots occur often after a championship in pro baseball, basketball, etc, so the same pattern applies to the NFL, the NBA, etc.

    Do you get my point?

    You sound like the segregationists in the 60s who explained that their African-American populations weren't interested in voting, etc, it was all because of  "outside agitators".

    I'm sure the resemblance is purely coincidental.


    What riots, ally? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Palli on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:47:13 PM EST

    Deray stereotypes (none / 0) (#9)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:32:46 AM EST
    Them all as criminals. Records searched by The Associated Press show more than 115 of the 170 people arrested in the aftermath of a motorcycle gang shootout outside a Central Texas restaurant have not been convicted of a crime in Texas.

    Just a group of enthusiasts out for a (4.20 / 5) (#19)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:49:34 AM EST
    lovely ride, right?

    Well, not exactly.  Couple of items that might be of interest to you:

    From The Intercept:

    A year before the deadly Texas shootout that killed nine people on May 17, a lengthy report by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives detailed the involvement of U.S. military personnel and government employees in outlaw motorcycle gangs, or OMGs. A copy of the report was obtained by The Intercept.

    The report lays out, in almost obsessive detail, the extent to which OMG members are represented in nearly every part of the military, and in federal and local government, from police and fire departments to state utility agencies. Specific examples from the report include dozens of Defense Department contractors with Secret or Top Secret clearances; multiple FBI contractors; radiological technicians with security clearances; U.S. Department of Homeland Security employees; Army, Navy and Air Force active-duty personnel, including from the special operations force community; and police officers.


    The 40-page report, "OMGs and the Military 2014," issued by ATF's Office of Strategic Intelligence and Information in July of last year, warned of the escalating violence of these gangs. "Their insatiable appetite for dominance has led to shootings, assaults and malicious attacks across the globe. OMGs continue to maim and murder over territory," the report said. "As tensions escalate, brazen shootings are occurring in broad daylight."

    The ATF report is based on intelligence gathered by dozens of law enforcement and military intelligence agencies, and identifies about 100 alleged associates of the country's most violent outlaw motorcycle gangs and support clubs who have worked in sensitive government or military positions.

    And from the Department of Justice:

    The Bandidos Motorcycle Club (Bandidos) is an OMG with a membership of 2,000 to 2,500 persons in the U.S. and in 13 other countries. The Bandidos constitute a growing criminal threat to the U.S. Law enforcement authorities estimate that the Bandidos are one of the two largest OMGs operating in the U.S., with approximately 900 members belonging to 93 chapters. The Bandidos are involved in transporting and distributing cocaine and marijuana and are involved in the production, transportation and distribution of methamphetamine. The Bandidos are most active in the Pacific, Southeastern, Southwestern and the West Central regions of the U.S. The Bandidos are expanding in each of these regions by forming additional chapters and allowing members of supporting clubs, known as "puppet" or "duck" club members who have sworn allegiance to another club but who support and do the "dirty work" of a mother club - to form new or join existing Bandidos chapters.

    Now, maybe it's just me, but I find it kind of puzzling the difference between how law enforcement reacted to average citizens engaged in protest and how they reacted to outlaw motorcycle gang members who are engaged in ongoing criminal activity and are responsible for shooting and killing rival gang members.  

    What I know, without question is, if the situation at Waco had taken place in the urban ghettos of Baltimore or Newark or Cleveland, as a result of a gang war between predominantly black, drug-dealing, members, you'd have been apoplectic if law enforcement had treated them with as much consideration as the cops in Waco treated those motorcycle gang members.

    And we all know this.  Save your outrage and indignation for people who don't completely get where you're coming from, okay?


    I don't (none / 0) (#24)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:58:56 AM EST
    understand how so many people miss the point that the police actually were  more violent in Waco then they have been in recent disturbances. They had a SWAT team positioned and actually opened fire with live ammo into the crowd and then arrested a large percentage of them. I wouldn't exactly call that  the preferential treatment that some imply.

    Everybody is fixating on the strangely calm aftermath from both the police and the bikers. From the bikers point of view I can see it as "that was brutal, I guess the party's over" mindset. Who knows what the police mindset was but it is obvious they knew the danger was over.

    Too much comparing apples and oranges here. That a deadly biker brawl broken up with lethal force would suddenly "sober" everybody up is not that surprising. It is also not surprising that the reverse is true in citizen protests where any kind of police aggression inevitably fans the flames on both sides.  


    Yeah, just fine, upstanding people (none / 0) (#10)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:56:47 AM EST
    and how many of them were convicted of a crime outside of Texas?

    Anyway, he smeared the good reputation of some people who are in a motorcycle gang.  Gosh, that's pretty weak tea.  


    He claims they are getting special treatment (none / 0) (#12)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:07:21 AM EST

    The bikers were shot at with real bullets. I am sure they would have much preferred tear gas and paintball rounds.

    They are all being held on million dollars bail. Ferguson rioters had bail set in the hundreds and low thousands. Even the serious offenses like assault and arson had bail set in the low five figures while waiting for trial.

    Some "privilege".


    The rioters didn't cause one death (3.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:20:06 AM EST
    while under the felony rule act, even if some of the bikers were killed by cop bullets, the bikers who first opened up would be responsible for the deaths in question.

    Murderous motorcycle gangsters get treated worse than people who are charged with rioting and the destruction of property.

    You can cry a river for the former, but I don't think you get anyone but mcBain the racist troll to agree with you.

    Maybe you could be the new racist troll around here. I'll be glad to recommend you to JL if you like.


    And there it is (1.50 / 2) (#14)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:27:29 AM EST
    In typical form. Personal attacks and baseless accusations of racism. Disgusting.

    You're the one who seems to excuse (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:41:32 AM EST
    a murderous(in the literal sense) riot by a somewhat less than multi-racial, predominately white, gang of armed motorcycle "enthusiasts", and complaint about riots that didn't end up in even one person getting shot and killed.

    Add to that your implication that the riots "seemed to follow him"' as though that was actually the case, that they wouldn't have taken place in lieu of his appearance, and yes, you do seem to be taking a racist line here.


    Mordiggian 88: (none / 0) (#39)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    You can cry a river for the former, but I don't think you get anyone but mcBain the racist troll to agree with you.

    I think you owe McBain and others here an apology for that comment.


    No, his bias are clearly (none / 0) (#44)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:27:25 PM EST
    delineated by his comments here

    When in doubt play the race card (none / 0) (#79)
    by McBain on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:46:50 PM EST
    Don't back up your accusation with any facts... just throw it out there.  Jeralyn rarely reads these comments, so what's the harm, right? I already called your bluff about another accusation and you had nothing.  

    You and FlJoe should have a contest.  See who can make the dumbest comment about me.  Joe has you beat right now, he told me I need to buy a bullet proof vest.  Was that a threat... who knows?... but it was dumber than calling me a racist troll.


    You are now painting (none / 0) (#23)
    by Chuck0 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:53:17 AM EST
    a broad, and ignorant brush. Many of those people arrested ARE fine upstanding people. I was once one of them. I still many people who part of the biker subculture. Many are patchholders and most are fine upstanding people. People with families, jobs, and businesses. Who pay taxes and contribute to their community.

    People are known by the company (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    they keep.

    I know more than a few people who are motorcycle enthusiasts, and none of them has felt the need to associate with motorcycle gangs who are engaged in criminal activity.  

    No one's saying these people at Waco don't have jobs or families - but I wasn't aware that those are the things that give someone "fine, upstanding" status.


    Yeah, these guys aren't (none / 0) (#46)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:38:51 PM EST
    the kind of people you'd want to bring home to dinner, IMHO.

    To conflate people who ride bikes and follow the law with these people, 33% of whom have criminal convictions, is sheer madness.


    Fine, upstanding people (none / 0) (#25)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 10:16:32 AM EST
    Usually aren't present during a literally muderous riot.

    Also, If 55 out of 170 had a criminal record, that means they made up 33% of the crowd in question. So I guess that means 67% of the crowd was composed of fine, upstanding people.


    Chuck is right (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 10:58:15 AM EST
    the fact there are outlaw bikers is no more significant than the fact there was a segment of the crowds in Ferguson and Balitmore who were violent.
    I agree with the person in Repacks link.  The press coverage was very very different for Texas than it has been for the ones I previously mentioned.

    But the fact is most "bikers" are just harmless old farts like Chuck and myself.

    A funny thing happened a day or so after the biker riot.  I was running to the store after mowing the lawn, which meant I was sneezing every 5 minutes, and in town I drive by a group of bikers just pulling up for lunch at a place in town popular with bikers - btw the place is nothing like what you probably imagine a place 'popular with bikers' to be - anyway I sneezed, I have a problem sneezing quietly, I sneezed very loudly and ALL of them yelled "GOD BLESS YOU" as I drove by.

    It just struck me as funny.


    The media (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:10:52 PM EST
    coverage is indeed different. There is absolutely no depth to it. Just the headlines for a few cycles then the ridiculous "war on cops" follow up.

    Yes, Fox News (none / 0) (#34)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:28:28 PM EST
    doesn't talk about how anti-cop all these outlaw bikers are, I guess it's easier to get people concerned with the blahs and browns and their 'threat' to the cops instead.

    That's not my (none / 0) (#41)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:01:57 PM EST
    point. In Waco we had nothing short of a brief but violent and deadly  outbreak of urban warfare where  tactically armed police fired on citizens. All we get from the media is some form of "Bikers gone wild" narrative. Where are the eyewitness interviews, the press conferences, the questions? How, when and why did the cops operate as they that day? How many shots did they fire? Did they fire warning shots? Did they target the armed and dangerous or did they just hose the crowd? Crickets.

    I know what Bikers are, I know what the Blah's and Browns and other poor who are forced to live in high crime area are. Friend of the Devil or not they are citizens and as such  deserve the benefit of the doubt and should not be subject to lethal force from LEO except for the most dire circumstances.


    Kinda hard to answer all those questions (none / 0) (#45)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:33:22 PM EST
    without an investigation first, don'tcha think?

    Consider all the ballistic tests that have to be run with the bullets matched to either the cop guns or the from any of the 100 or so firearms they seized from those fine, upstanding citizens afterwards.  You are aware it takes a little more time than a few days, correct?

    Comparing this to any of the recent one-on-one police shootings is comparing apples to coconuts.

    Glad I could straighten it out for you.


    yes (none / 0) (#49)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:27:39 PM EST
    I understand investigations take time but that never stopped the press from endless questioning and speculation before, there is none of this here. All instances of police firing on citizens should be looked at hard and long no matter what anyone thinks of the victims.

    I think there is world of difference (none / 0) (#53)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 03:51:10 PM EST
    between a single shooting and a mass event involving firearms being wielded by both sides.

    of (none / 0) (#56)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:24:16 PM EST
    course but we were talking about the difference in media coverage  between the events. A mass event, as you describe seemingly should get some serious coverage that does not seem to be as forthcoming in Waco.

    Well, to begin with (none / 0) (#63)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 05:08:19 PM EST
    1.  Zero citizens from Waco or elsewhere rioted over the treatment of the bikers by the cops.

    2.  Whatever crimes or infractions were alleged to have been committed by the deceased in the cases in Ferguson or Baltimore pale in comparison to shooting weapons in public.

    3. No racial angle here.

    I understand up to a point (none / 0) (#64)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 05:43:19 PM EST
    Zero citizens from Waco or elsewhere rioted over the treatment of the bikers by the cops.
    I agree protests do work, at the very least keeping the media focused.
    Whatever crimes or infractions were alleged to have been committed by the deceased in the cases in Ferguson or Baltimore pale in comparison to shooting weapons in public.
    While it is obvious that the police were reacting to real crimes, it seems to me that would just make the story more sexy. "Shootout in Waco" has a ring to it.
    No racial angle here.
    Police shootings are only news when the targets are minorities?

    Pretty much (none / 0) (#65)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:11:24 PM EST
    We had a case here where the cops pursed a man into his mother's home and shot him dead because he was resisting arrest.  Outside my local area, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find anyone in the next county, let alone the state, who has heard of this case.

    Agreed (none / 0) (#66)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:27:09 PM EST
    police violence is way under reported and all too often swept under the rug.

    Chuck took umbrage at a snark directed towards (none / 0) (#28)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 11:26:55 AM EST
    The fine upstanding citizens involved in this riot as towards bikers in general.

    As Rex Stout put it in Fer-de-Lance:

    Personal resentment of a general statement is a remnant of fetish-superstition.

    Cleveland --Trial of Officer Brelo (none / 0) (#16)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:41:44 AM EST
    It seems that the trial judge, John O'Donnell, took a rather different view of this affair than the media.  Every media account I've seen has Brelo, at the conclusion of the chase, "climbing," or "jumping" onto the hood of suspect Russell's car.  This is highly prejudicial to Brelo, if untrue, because it readily lends itself to the inference that Brelo wasn't quite "right in the head," or knew the suspects were unarmed.  O'Donnell found otherwise.  He says that Brelo, fearing that the suspect was going to ram the vehicle he was crouching behind, somehow managed to get up onto trunk of the suspect's vehicle.  Only moments before, Russell had attempted to run over Officer Wilfredo Diaz, who was approaching him on foot.  (Odd we never hear about that.)  He then drove straight at Brelo, who dove from his patrol car.  Here's what the judge found happened next, after Brelo got atop the trunk of the suspect's vehicle:  "So Brelo, afraid for his life, stepped onto the Malibu's hood and fired the night's final 15 shots through the windshield."  He further found that Brelo reasonably believed the suspects to be armed.  

    All in all, a refreshingly different "take," no?  Odd that O'Donnell (a Democrat, if it matters) didn't content himself with finding that the prosecution failed to meet its burden of proof.  In his capacity as the finder of fact, the judge made a number of determinations highly favorable to the defendant.  These make it largely immaterial whether Brelo did or did not fire the fatal shots.

    You should be able to peruse the judges decision (all 35 pages of it) at cleveland.com.


    huh... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Mr Natural on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:48:50 AM EST
    An alternate view.  The unarmed civilians in the car weren't trying to ram or run over anyone.  They were trying to escape from your prevaricating porcine pals, who had them surrounded and were gleefully emptying their semiautomatics into their victim's unarmed bodies.

    The idea that Officer Brelo could jump on the trunk or the hood of a dangerously moving car is laughable.  The car was stopped.  The victims were already morguebound.

    But the Brelo decision raises an interesting question.

    Are today's police deliberately shooting the he$$ out of people?  Has someone advised police departments that if a single bullet cannot be proven to be the cause of death, because so many bullets would individually have been fatal, then the shooter gets off as in this case and for that reason?


    Concur (none / 0) (#21)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:10:04 AM EST
    I find the logic interesting that because SO MANY cops were shooting at the two, none can be shown to have fired the fatal shot(s), so they are all off the hook.

    I couldn't help letting out a laugh (none / 0) (#29)
    by NYShooter on Mon May 25, 2015 at 11:50:07 AM EST
    when I heard that.

    A few years ago, on the program, "Law and Order," (I'm not positive about the details, but generally, this is how it went down.) Two guys devised the perfect crime. They murdered two girls (their wives, I believe.) And, each one purposely left enough circumstantial evidence at the scene to make each, first one, later the other, a prime suspect(s.) When the cops had enough evidence on the first one, they arrested him for capital murder. Feigning resignation at the overwhelming evidence, he pleaded guilty.

    Just before his trial was over, the other one came forward, and confessed to the murders. The evidence was equally great for him too. Obviously, at this time, the cops & the D.A. realized they had been scammed. As frustrated as they were, there was nothing they could do.

    Does anybody here remember that episode? I swear, I don't remember the outcome.  


    Read the Investigation Report to Prosecutor 2/5/13 (none / 0) (#52)
    by Palli on Mon May 25, 2015 at 03:01:28 PM EST
    1. The high speed chase was unnecessary and dangerous. The initial minor traffic infraction had already been written and the auto license had been noted. Unmarked cars joined the chase heightening the danger to citizens.

    2. Only 13 POs fired their guns. The most aggressive were Brelo 49 shots reloading 2X & his partner Cynthia Moore 19 shots.  (Incidentally, the nine officers (including Moore) who are suing the city for "reverse discrimination" fired a total of 72 of the remaining shots into the car and victims.)

    3. Prior to the day of the massacre, Cleveland officers had been given "Ambush" training and were taught to shoot from within their patrol cars through the windows before debarking. The first cops to corner Russell's car in the school parking lot did just that. Following  patrol offers saw the damage and incorrectly assumed the officers had been shot. In addition, the radio transmission was only "shots fired" so again, cops incorrectly assumed the officers had received fire. (Who says cops are playing urban warfare?)


    Elements of the PO "Reverse Discrimination" Lawsuit

    Text Judge ODonnell's Verdict (does not include the video of his analysis)


    Fact v. Myth (none / 0) (#60)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:46:53 PM EST
    Anyone with a serious interest in this case should read Judge O'Donnell's decision.

    Russell's initial confrontation with "the law," on this fateful day, came when he was "pulled over" for failure to give a turn signal.  The officer exercised his discretion to "let him go."  Shortly afterward, he passed a couple of officers standing on a street corner, and his vehicle backfired.  This resulted in a radio report that a gunshot had been heard, coming from the car.  When other officers attempted to 'pull him over," the chase was on.  According to the judge, this was quite a spectacular affair.  Russell careened through a pizza parlor parking lot, sideswiped a patrol car, and hit speeds in excess of 120 mph.  When they finally got Russell cornered, in a dead end, Officer Wilfredo Diaz got out of his patrol car, and approached the suspect's vehicle, on foot.  The fireworks started when Russell attempted to run over Diaz.  I have no reason to doubt that all officers present participated.  I don't offhand recall whether the judge attached any significance to Russell's blood alcohol reading of .131.

    I suspect the judge's decision has a lot of people fuming, perhaps even the august beings at the DOJ.  Ordinarily, the outcome of a criminal trial isn't fatal to subsequent proceedings.  If a prosecutor can't prove his case beyond reasonable doubt, the civil plaintiff is entitled to try his luck under a "preponderance of evidence" standard.  Judge O'Donnell, however, has here made a number of specific findings of fact which may well kneecap anyone contemplating subjecting Brelo to further difficulties, whether criminal or civil.  Interestingly enough, he required Brelo to prove that his actions were reasonable, and ruled that he had met his burden.  I imagine this has occasioned some grinding of teeth.


    Correction and Addition (none / 0) (#77)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:21:23 PM EST
    Upon a reread of Judge O'Donnell's decision, I see I erred in saying he puts Brelo going from the trunk of the suspect's car to the hood.  He says that Russell, after trying to run down Diaz, accelerated straight towards Brelo, and then slammed into car 238, behind which Brelo took shelter.  Brelo, afraid that the suspect was going to ram the car he was behind, then "clambered" onto the trunk of that car.  It is by no means clear how he got from the trunk of car 238 to the hood of the suspect's car.  The judge says the prosecution's expert spoke of Brelo "going on the trunk of zone car 238 and then on the Malibu's hood."  Who knows.  

    In any event, the judge makes it quite clear that the gunfire began only after Russell tried to run down Officer Diaz, who was out of his patrol car.  It was dark, with no artificial illumination, resulting in a confused and chaotic scene.

    I was rather taken aback to see that the judge imposed on Brelo the burden to show that he was legally justified in using deadly force.  He admits he could find no "decisional law" to support this.  If he here fell into error, however, it is not one from which the prosecution can benefit.        


    The Cleveland police officers that were involved (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:36:33 PM EST
    In this act are just startling to this household.  You realize that these officers acted exactly like Blackwater did in Iraq, and their actions were war crimes?  If Blackwater heard or witnessed anything that caused any member concern, they just opened up on the street.  This sort of behavior was considered criminal and irreparable in its social destruction IN A COMBAT ZONE.  How is anyone considering such cowardice from police officers acceptable on the streets of our nation?  Unless they want our streets to be the next war zone.  This type of use of force is insane and shreds the social fabric, it shreds the confidence of the citizenry, it destroys peace of mind for all of us.

    Ohhh Please -- (none / 0) (#22)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:47:30 AM EST
    "So Brelo, afraid for his life, stepped onto the Malibu's hood and fired the night's final 15 shots through the windshield."  He further found that Brelo reasonably believed the suspects to be armed.

    Ohhh Please --

    No sane person and no cop in his right mind would do such a thing if he believed the suspects to be armed.

    Let's face it: Brelo pissed on the judge's leg and told him that it was raining -- and the judge said that he believed him even though no sane judge would.


    And let's not forget that (none / 0) (#26)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 10:20:22 AM EST
    Berlo's combat duty in Iraq raises a strong presumption of mental instability (not to speak of moral deficiency.)

    Odd that the Ohio Democratic Party is trying to put a judicial twit like John O'Donnell on the Ohio Supreme Court.


    Was that dry sarcasm? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:14:22 PM EST
    "Berlo's combat duty in Iraq raises a strong presumption of mental instability (not to speak of moral deficiency.)"

    Please tell me this is satire.


    Actually, (none / 0) (#32)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:21:23 PM EST
    I think it's a reasonably accurate representation of the media "narrative."

    Welcome to the 19th Century (none / 0) (#35)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:32:16 PM EST
    "Berlo's combat duty in Iraq raises a strong presumption of mental instability (not to speak of moral deficiency.)"

    Please tell me this is satire.

    PTSD is not a joke.  It affects many people who remain untreated because our Congress no longer has many members who are veterans themselves, so Congress doesn't care about those who sacrificed for their country.  Unfortunately, many of those untreated cases end up in law enforcement because it's seen as a good job for those with weapons training.

    I'm pretty sure you never served.  You sound like the kind of person whose idea of "sacrifice" is skipping lunch.


    And I don't (none / 0) (#42)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    view the hatchet job the media is performing on Officer Brelo, a former Marine, as a joke.  You need to get your irony detector checked.  Seriously.  And see below.

    Now, in the interest of getting the discussion back onto the facts of the Brelo case, can anyone come up with a reason for willing Wilfredo out of existence?


    I never served, as advised (none / 0) (#43)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:06:18 PM EST
    By my father, a marine and a Vietnam veteran who suffers from PTSD.  It also greatly affects families of veterans, particularly their sons. Don't presume to know what me or my family have sacrificed.

    And of course he is neither criminally "mentally unstable" nor "morally deficient".

    Just another typical TL personal attack.

    Happy Memorial Day.


    I merely (none / 0) (#50)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:36:48 PM EST
    offered a tongue-in-cheek comment on the way certain journalists have been trying to use Officer Brelo's military background against him.  Consider it withdrawn.

    My experience with PTSD and treatment (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:14:54 PM EST
    Thus far, if someone doesn't want to admit to it and has family members willing to enable the denial, then you don't have PTSD :). An MP who just returned from Afghanistan said that they are still subtlely coaching soldiers when going through their routine mental health questioning to respond that they aren't experiencing any emotional or traumatic difficulties.  The sad thing is, talking about this at a BBQ had all his fellow service members laughing out loud, it's a big joke that the larger powers would really prefer that they all just keep checking the fine box.  And if you check the fine box then you're fine.

    At this BBQ a big lid from a stainless steel chafing dish accidentally fell onto a tiled floor and about four of them to include a serving woman hit the deck.  Then they all stand up, everyone laughs a lot....again, we've really gone round the bend :)


    Very sad. (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:35:58 PM EST
    once (none / 0) (#68)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:52:54 PM EST
    again the public should demand to see the 28 pages, Bob Graham didn't buy Bush's BS either.

    Escapism & engagement (via reading) (none / 0) (#70)
    by christinep on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:20:00 PM EST
    The urge to have the old-fashioned submergence in reading adventure has been deliciously satisfied via Louise Penny books in the past several months.  As a girl, I read & read Perry Mason; and, then, decided to be an attorney rather than an archeologist or astronomer ... 'must have been into "A"s, huh.  Years and school and heavy-duty work ensued, and I seemed to lose the ability to read for pleasure.  But, no more.

    I love the Louise Penny series with Chief Inspector Armand Gamache.  My favorite cousin sent me her first ("Still Life" from 2005) last fall.  Now, I'm on the fifth Gamache book, while immersing myself in the fictional town of Three Pines in the south of Quebec.  It almost feels like Brigadoon transformed into mystery puzzles with more-complex-than-usual characters.  

    Any other adherents out there?

    Yes. I love the Inspector Gamache (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by caseyOR on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:37:36 PM EST
    mysteries. I have read them all and am impatiently awaiting the release of the next one in August.

    There is this mystical, mythical quality to Three Pines, but the books, the storylines, are grounded and sometimes quite gritty.

    I also like this glimse of life in modern Quebec, the conflict between its split culture- French and English. and how that plays out today.

    You are on the fifth book, eh? You have some great reading ahead of you, christine.


    Bad Lip Reading (none / 0) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:21:49 PM EST