Other News and Open Thread

For those following topics in addition to the economy, which BTD is doing a heroic job covering, here's some news of note:

  • Guantanamo proseuctor quits. Lt. Col. Darrel Vandeveld believed he had evidence showing detainee did not commit charged crime, was precluded from sharing it.


This is an open thread. I'll be back this afternoon.

< Bill Clinton On The Wall Street Crisis | Obama To Do Townhall If McCain Skips Debate >
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    Man (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:45:24 AM EST
    Here is a really scummy post by Steve Benen.  The CDS never frickin' ends, does it?

    Never mind all the good the Clinton Global Initiative is accomplishing around the world, the real issue is that Bill Clinton doesn't run it in a sufficiently partisan fashion.  That guy sure sucks, doesn't he?

    Omg (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Faust on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:05:14 AM EST
    read the comments section of that post. THAT is some CDS.

    MSNBC reports that McCain (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:04:34 AM EST
    is now saying that he cancelled on Letterman, while appearing on Katie Couric and at the CGI because he thought it was inappropriate to do comedy during the financial crisis.

    This doesn't explain why he lied to Lieberman about rushing back to DC.  It also doesn't deal with the fact that so many of McCain's appearances are comedic. Maybe black comedy, but still comedy.

    That's terrible (none / 0) (#15)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:10:18 AM EST
    You just referred to Dave as "Lieberman."  You will have to do some serious penance for that.

    Bless me Father for I have sinned (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:04:56 PM EST
    It has been a long time since my last confession.

    I yelled at my children twice.

    I cheated on my diet three times.

    I swiped some crackers from the firm cafeteria without paying for them.

    I called David Letterman's name in vain.  I used the Name of the Beast to refer to him.  It was an accident but I deserve to perform a heavy penance.

    I will say five Our Fathers, Five Hail Marys, and watch the entire Sarah Palin interview with Katie Couric five times.

    Will you forgive me, Father?


    Ahh, that sure brings back the... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:20:01 PM EST
    ...memories!  It's been a looooooong time since I was forced to enter the booth and list my transgressions.  I imagine it would take a few hours to list all of them since the last time.  Not to mention the penance...  

    You are forgiven, now go forth and sin no more, my child.  


    Ditto. (none / 0) (#72)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:48:51 PM EST
    I wonder how many more lapsed Catholics are here?  :)

    How about making up the sins? (none / 0) (#82)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:13:22 PM EST
    I would think, ok, must tell him something. So I would do the talk back, lied, ate meat on Friday thing. I always ate meat on Friay even before they changed their minds and said, Oh, it is ok now. Heh.

    in school, we'd all (none / 0) (#92)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:46:57 PM EST
    either pick the foreign exchange priest who didn't understand English very well or the elderly priest who had bad hearing.  We all hated going to Confession.

    I was never fond of... (none / 0) (#98)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:17:43 PM EST
    ...confession, but what really ticked me off was having to go to CCD on Saturday mornings.  I did not at all like my cartoon viewing being interfered with!

    My kids are with you on that <eom> (none / 0) (#102)
    by votermom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:24:29 PM EST
    Eddie Izzard (none / 0) (#97)
    by jedimom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:11:22 PM EST
    ahhh yes Eddie Izzard has a line on that from his show Dress to Kill

    looking for an 'original' sin, one never done before..




    Five Hail Mary's? (none / 0) (#104)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:36:15 PM EST
    That's not a penance, that's a John McCain imitation.

    Ha. Same reason Obama gave (none / 0) (#25)
    by Cream City on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:36:24 AM EST
    for cancelling out on SNL -- for the sake of the hurricane hitting, y'know, Galveston.

    I don't believe either of them, and they need their staffs to do better than this at creative excuses.  Heck, my students do better than this.


    So you believed him? (none / 0) (#111)
    by Cream City on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 04:45:59 PM EST
    I hope you don't teach.  You're way too gullible to survive the students' excuses.  

    I will believe you that it was the hurricane with the G and not the hurricane with the I.  I oughta looked it up so as not to let the likes of you claim that makes a difference, but I don't spend time on making excuses for either of these candidates.  They're doing fine in doing so all by themselves.


    all day yesterday (none / 0) (#47)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:09:05 PM EST
    all I heard out of the McCain camp was that he was returning to DC  AFTER he spoke at the CGI.  So, what is inconsistent in what he said yesterday than what he is doing today?

    It just doesn't match up with what (none / 0) (#99)
    by JoeA on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:18:21 PM EST
    McCain supposedly told Letterman on the phone when cancelling.

    SUSA Sez: (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:20:11 AM EST
    PA close, but for Obama:

    Obama 50
    McCain 44

    Crosstabs not up yet.

    Yes, I'm still worried about PA.

    And (none / 0) (#18)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:27:33 AM EST
    Look at this from a strategic POV (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:32:26 AM EST
    If Obama wins CO, and it's looking like he will, McCain HAS to win Pennsylvania or Michigan. Even if he wins NH, he still can't get past 269 without PA.

    Think about it this way: Pennsylvania and Michigan are to McCain as Ohio and Florida were to Kerry and Gore.


    McCain needs (none / 0) (#56)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:23:01 PM EST
    to win two of these....VA, WI, MN, MI   if he loses PA

    If he loses VA, PA pretty much doesn't matter (none / 0) (#61)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:26:21 PM EST
    Though I admit that VA might be slightly more Democratic than PA this year--a real turnaround.

    I'm telling you, though. For McCain, it's pick one or he's done: PA, MI, or CO.


    My hunch is (none / 0) (#21)
    by lilburro on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:33:02 AM EST
    that Palin does not play as well in PA as she may in other states in the Midwest/West.  I don't know if there is any hard evidence of that though.

    I don't think she has much, if anything, (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:36:03 AM EST
    to do with it. It's the economy.

    I agree (none / 0) (#42)
    by lilburro on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:02:34 PM EST
    but I think if she does have a positive effect somewhere, PA's not the place.

    There's alot of hunters in PA (none / 0) (#54)
    by votermom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:21:23 PM EST
    who like Gov. Palin a lot.

    I think PA (none / 0) (#58)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:24:03 PM EST
    has the largest percentage of hunting population in the country.

    Pa has the second-highest (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by liminal on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:39:43 PM EST
    number of hunters, per the USF&WS survey from 2006, at 1 million plus, just below Texas, but the states with the highest % of population as hunters are:

    Montana - 19%
    North Dakota - 17%
    South Dakota - 15%
    Arkansas, Maine, West Virginia - 14%
    Minnesota, Missouri, Wyoming - 13%

    There are a powerful lot of hunters in PA, though.  


    It must be all the deer. LOL <eom> (none / 0) (#59)
    by votermom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:25:21 PM EST
    How was Kerry (none / 0) (#23)
    by WS on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:35:53 AM EST
    polling at this point in PA?  

    10/6/04, Kerry 49, Bush 47 (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:38:01 AM EST
    here PDF.

    I've heard (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:37:18 AM EST
    that the get out the vote people in PA won't be doing it for Obama. In fact, they didn't show up for the meeting with his campaign is what I heard. Have you heard the same thing? (Rendell is NOT included in this, just rank and file)

    You heard wrong (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:38:45 AM EST
    AND Obama learned his lesson during the primary: he's paying street money in Philly this time.

    Not Philly (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:40:36 AM EST
    and understand that Obama DID pay street money during the primary. It just wasn't enough to overcome the votes in the rest of the state.

    Well, even if he did pay street money, (none / 0) (#33)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:42:52 AM EST
    Obama didn't get the vote total he could have out of Philly. He won't make that mistake again.

    As to the rest of the state: Republican FUD.


    All I know is (none / 0) (#45)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:06:46 PM EST
    My daughter in Connecticut is going with a busload of other students to do GOTV in the Scranton area several times in the next few weeks.

    Scranton is tough for Obama (none / 0) (#48)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:11:22 PM EST
    Your daughter should be prepared to have the door slammed in her face, even by Democrats.

    She's tough (none / 0) (#53)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:20:17 PM EST
    and she's committed. And she was a Hillary supporter too. She's also beeen doing phone banking, and she's already gotten a lot of hangups.

    But every additional vote is important in PA.


    Good to hear (none / 0) (#57)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:23:28 PM EST
    Pennsylvania is the Keystone State, and McCain can't win without it IMO.

    The Obama campaign (none / 0) (#81)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:12:34 PM EST
    has been reaching out to supporters in the states near PA to travel to assigned areas in PA and go door to door. The response has been been strong and I hear that when volunteers arrive, the field offices are prepared and well organized. I'm going with friends the weekend of Oct 18th, so I shall see for myself. One of my friends was an enthusiastic Hillary supporter who was so outraged by Palin, that she's donated and now traveling to PA.

    Where did you hear that? (none / 0) (#28)
    by WS on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:38:45 AM EST
    I read in an article that Obama will pay street money in Philly.  Thats a good thing for GOTV.  

    I'm not (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:39:41 AM EST
    talking about Philly, it's the rest of the state is what I heard.

    Isn't Rendell and Casey (none / 0) (#32)
    by WS on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:42:06 AM EST
    in charge of the GOTV in PA (other than the Obama campaign of course)?

    I don't (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:44:26 AM EST
    know about Casey but I think Rendell is. It's Rendell's people outside Philly that didn't show up for the meetings is what I heard.

    Maybe Not That They Didn't Show Up (none / 0) (#49)
    by daring grace on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:12:49 PM EST
    so much as they feel like they're not being asked to show up.

    From Philly.com

    "David L. Cohen, Gov. Rendell's closest counselor over two decades in politics, said he hears all the time from Democratic insiders - some miffed because Obama doesn't appear to want their help or advice - that the Illinois senator is somehow "blowing it" in Pennsylvania.

    "Cohen said he tells the worriers, "Calm down, calm down, take a breath." He says he can't remember a better-run campaign than Obama's."


    I know a number of people (none / 0) (#123)
    by CST on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:49:02 PM EST
    personally who are working the ground game and getting out the vote in Philly and Pittsburgh.

    And I heard from the Pittsburgh people that there were a lot of other Obama people out doing the same...

    so they may just have different "get out the vote" people now.


    CNN had Pennsylvania (none / 0) (#34)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:43:39 AM EST
    at Obama 53- McCain 44 yesterday.  A little more depth, here:

    Obama has also apparently won supporters in Pennsylvania, which has voted for the Democrats in the last four presidential elections. The new poll indicates Obama has a 9 point lead over McCain among likely voters, 53 percentto 44 percent, and a similar 9 point advantage among registered voters. That's up from a 4 point advantage Obama held in the Keystone state in late August,the last time CNN polled there. Twenty-one electoral votes are up for grabs in Pennsylvania.

    "Obama's biggest gains in Pennsylvania come in the areas of the state that have been hardest-hit by the economy -- particularly rural areas in the western and central part of the state," Holland said. "That may be an early indication that the financial crisis on Wall Street will help Obama even in places like Altoona and Erie."

    Right now, that's the largest spread I've seen for PA, but if Obama's gaining in the "central T" of Pennsylvania counties (where it's typcially R+20 and more), he's going to win there if he can hold even half of the gain.


    I believe it's possible that he could (none / 0) (#39)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:50:22 AM EST
    improve his margins in central PA.

    Kerry got killed in some of those counties 70-20.


    True, but the saving grace for Kerry (none / 0) (#40)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:01:01 PM EST
    having been killed in those counties 70-20, was that those counties might only have 5,000 or 10,000 votes cast.

    One comes to mind:  Elk County, population, about 35,000.  So named, because elk lived there (and still do- the only place east of the Mississippi).  This year's primary results showed about 20,000 registered voters with about 9,500 votes cast, and (given the high interest in the Dem side - remember? ) a 55D -45R split on the ballots cast.  HRC won 64-34.
    On the R side, the split was McSame 68, Paul 10+, and Huck 13.

    How it breaks out will be anyone's guess, but I'd suspect Obama has engendered a lot of excitement and if he can even come close in a county like Elk, he'll win the Commonwealth.


    Let's be honest (none / 0) (#44)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:05:35 PM EST
    The reason Bush came close is that he and his team produced votes in Pensyltucky that no one believed even existed.

    Seriously, compare the vote totals in 2000 to 2004 and 2006.

    The good news is that if you add together Hillary's votes in the primary with Obama's, you see that they got about as many votes as Al Gore did in 2000 in PA.


    Well, I'm supposed to be working (none / 0) (#51)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:16:01 PM EST
    and took the few minutes I could spare to look only at the most recent election in the jurisdiction.  You want to compare prior elections - go ahead.  But, 2008 is not 2000, nor is it 2004.

    I stand by my conclusion - that if Obama can even come close to McCain in a seriously-rural, seriously-conservative, 98.96% white, 0.15% black county like Elk, he can have a good expectation of winning PA.


    Wiki doesn't seem to be in... (none / 0) (#50)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:14:02 PM EST
    ...agreement with the whole "elk" issue:

    "The Rocky Mountain elk subspecies has been reintroduced by hunter-conservation organizations in the Appalachian region of the eastern U.S., where the now extinct Eastern elk once lived[22] After elk were reintroduced in the states of Kentucky, North Carolina and Tennessee, they migrated into the neighboring states of Virginia and West Virginia, and have established permanent populations there.[23] Elk have also been reintroduced to a number of other states, including Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin."


    Ok, fair enough. (none / 0) (#60)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:25:39 PM EST
    It seems Kentucky started reintroducing them about 10 years ago and they've been doing well and spread out since.  In Pa. they were re-introduced about 1910, and have been holding on against civilization since.

    I don't imagine... (none / 0) (#63)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:31:21 PM EST
    ...they have too many natural preditors left out East anymore?  

    Even out West with cougars and wolves--and a long hunting season, it is hard to keep a lid on their population.  


    In the suburbs, deer are pests (none / 0) (#65)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:33:33 PM EST
    constantly ripping up rhododendron from people's garden.

    Have never seen... (none / 0) (#69)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:39:34 PM EST
    ...an elk go after a flower bed or an aspen?  They can put any deer to shame with their appetite and destructive capabilities.  

    That's why their population in PA (none / 0) (#77)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:54:34 PM EST
    has been small - they encroached on farms and suffered the consequences, legally or not.

    Elk (none / 0) (#89)
    by liminal on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:40:09 PM EST
    Actually, there are actual elk in Kentucky, which is also east of the Mississippi.  

    They were re-introduced to the state in the late 1990s, and quite successfully.  This fall and winter, three Kentucky state parks will be offering elk tours, so that folks can see them up close (ish). The press release on those tours is here, in case any of y'all are close and want to go see 'em.  


    Hah. (none / 0) (#91)
    by liminal on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:41:39 PM EST
    I started writing that reply an hour ago - and left it when someone else walked into the office.  Didn't mean to be repetitive!

    From the "No Duh" files... (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:35:04 PM EST
    ...an article from the LA Times:

    'Medical bills swamping even insured folks

    "Increases in problems paying medical bills are affecting not only those who have always struggled with medical costs -- low income and uninsured people -- but also an increasing number of insured middle-income families," study author Peter J. Cunningham, a senior fellow at the center, said in a news release.

    The worst consequence, one felt by 2.2 million people, was bankruptcy as a result of medical bills. But even when the damage didn't hit quite that hard, people reported other financial disasters. They had problems paying for food and housing. And they were more likely to have unmet medical needs because of cost.'


    Great new video on McCain (1.50 / 2) (#78)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:55:23 PM EST
    Has Obama quit smoking yet? (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by tootired on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:25:39 PM EST
    Black men are 50% more likely to develop lung cancer than white men. For a male the odds of developing lung cancer are 1:13, and the number is much higher for smokers. Only about 15% of lung cancer victims are still alive after 5 years. You can ask me all about that. I lost both my mom and dad to lung cancer. Mom was a smoker, and dad breathed her second smoke for too many years. Every one of her children has had childhood asthma. I'd like to see a chest x-ray of Senator Obama. Then he can run this ad.

    Hunters who smoke (none / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:08:30 PM EST
    like Obama alot. Somebody told me.

    He lost my vote... (none / 0) (#114)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 06:31:04 PM EST
    when he quit smoking:)

    yeah (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:27:16 PM EST
    that sure was "great".

    Wasn't his cancer treated (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by votermom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:06:44 PM EST
    8 years ago? His odds of dying from it now are pretty low, iinm.

    Rasmussen (none / 0) (#1)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:40:28 AM EST
    has a new poll with Obama up in North Carolina by 2.

    Here you go

    Rasmussen tends to favor McCain so this is very good news.

    I tend to agree (none / 0) (#16)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:14:10 AM EST
    then again I am expecting a 330+ electoral vote win for Obama.  

    Pakistan fired on two US helicopters (none / 0) (#4)
    by votermom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:50:24 AM EST
    I'm inclined to agree with them.... (none / 0) (#115)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 06:33:40 PM EST
    I see any Pakistani attack helicopters off my coastline, I'm getting my slingshot.

    Sad, but true... (none / 0) (#5)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:53:21 AM EST
    "A West Virginia man who police said passed gas and fanned it toward a patrolman has been charged with battery on a police officer."


    I'm surprised he wasn't charged with an act of terrorism and sent to Gitmo.  

    Where did you read that? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:54:33 AM EST
    In the "Breaking News" section?

    As a matter of fact... (none / 0) (#9)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:58:55 AM EST
    ...yes.  Right after the article on poor, poor Janet Elway downsizing to a paultry 6200sf home--without a swimming pool even!!11!

    Wow (none / 0) (#11)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:04:01 AM EST
    This economy really is hitting people hard.

    It didn't smell bad enough for that. (none / 0) (#7)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:55:09 AM EST
    Somebody (none / 0) (#14)
    by eric on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:10:15 AM EST
    should have paid better attention in law school... pretty sure battery requires actual physical contact.  What is wrong with these people?

    There are times, particularly after (none / 0) (#22)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:35:43 AM EST
    a lot of beer or Tex-mex food, that the gaseous result has, indeed, a striking physical presence and not just a transitory olfactory one.  A room-clearing slap-in-the-face, even.  Seems likely you've never spent too much time in a hunting or fishing camp, otherwise you'd surely have known that.

    In my circles... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 06:36:52 PM EST
    thats the kind of thing friends do for each other:)

    He has no chance whatsoever. Would (none / 0) (#8)
    by tigercourse on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:55:44 AM EST
    never make it out of the primary.

    Guantanamo Exculpatory information ? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Doc Rock on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:44:23 AM EST
    I'm not a lawyer, but isn't there something in the Canon of Ethics about cases like this?  Does that not apply in military jurisprudence if there is?

    It does apply. The prosecuting attorney's (none / 0) (#38)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:50:11 AM EST
    position can be summarized by this syllogism:
    "I am ethically obligated as a prosecutor to see that justice is done.  
    The government is forcing me to withhold information which I believe may be exculpatory.  Convicting someone when there is known to be information which might be exculpatory would be unjust, and perpetrating an injustice.
    The law says exculpatory information must be turned over.  
    Therefore, two separate principles require that either I turn over the information I believe is exculpatory or recuse myself from the prosecution.
    Because I am a military officer and I have been ordered to not turn over the information, the only way I can fulfill my ethical duties is to have myself taken off the case."

    Since he was a reservist, he effected his removal from the case by requesting that his reserve activiation be ended and he be returned to civilian life.

    His bosses are characterizing him as a subordinate disgruntled because their decision went contrary to what he felt it should have been.  In other words, a disgruntled former employee who was not a team player.


    In a regular criminal trial (none / 0) (#46)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:08:25 PM EST
    It is called Brady material.  Exculpatory information does not have to absolutely prove innocence for the disclosure requirement to apply. Convictions can get overturned if Brady material is withheld.

    What does (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:22:20 PM EST
    everyone think of this oped in the WaPo today? It arguing against the bailout.

    CNN reports breaking news (none / 0) (#62)
    by CCinNC on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:29:45 PM EST
    A deal has been reached.  Now McCain can do the debate.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:31:30 PM EST
    I knew this would happen. The whole "McCain is running from a debate" was a set up.

    To put it as kindly as possible (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by ruffian on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:35:28 PM EST
    After watching the Dem debates this spring, the idea that anyone was afraid to debate Obama was a pretty hard sell to me.

    Martha Stewart (none / 0) (#93)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:49:48 PM EST
    repeated Obama's line today on her show. After everything that has come to pass she ended up looking silly.

    So he goe sto the debate (none / 0) (#68)
    by votermom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:35:57 PM EST
    with "economic hero" cred?

    No doubt his campaign has an ad ready (none / 0) (#73)
    by CCinNC on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:50:37 PM EST
    chiding Obama for being more interested in campaigning than in solving our national crisis.

    Based solely on the AP article, (none / 0) (#75)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:52:48 PM EST
    Sen. Dodd and his committee will deservedly get the credit for the legislation.  

    Well (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:50:48 PM EST
    he certainly deserves it. He's been sitting there doing the grunt work.

    Oh Boy.....Gallup now has..... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Kefa on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:40:54 PM EST
    them tied. Daily tracking.

    McCain: dumb as a fox. (none / 0) (#76)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:53:21 PM EST
    McCain already taking credit. (none / 0) (#74)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:51:57 PM EST
    Republican stooge on MSNBC is saying that yesterday the deal was coming apart, and once McCain called Bush and set up meeting, it came together. McCain was being McCain, a gambler, a leader. (Do we really want a president who's a gambler?)

    Andrea Mitchell (!) pushes back, says the reports we were getting from our reporters was that the deal was progressing and the only people saying the deal was coming apart were the McCain people.

    Dem surrogate says, Obama will credit congressional leaders. McCain tried to make it about him.

    Republican stooge: McCain gets done what Obama only promises.

    Sin verguenza. They have no shame.

    Republican stooge.

    I expect (none / 0) (#79)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    that McCain's attempt to steal credit will end up looking even more sad and pathetic than yesterday's ploy.

    I don't even think all of the Republicans who were key players in the negotiations will be willing to go along with it.  "Aw shucks, we were getting nowhere until Saint McCain swooped in to save the day with his brilliant economic ideas."  Lindsey Graham will, though!


    Boehner giving McCain figleaf (none / 0) (#84)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:17:53 PM EST
    Boehner released a statement saying there is no deal.  First it was just a deal among Democrats. Then he backed up and said it was final.  Which was what Dodd said. He's trying to delay working out the details until Sir McCain rides up on his trusty steed.

    Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

    Niiiiiiice (none / 0) (#90)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:41:21 PM EST
    but remember, if you take the position that it's simply not possible to be bipartisan with these people, you're a member of the "Angry Left."

    Negative Ads (none / 0) (#80)
    by ruffian on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:10:28 PM EST
    I heard an interesting interview this morning on XM POTUS station with someone (perhaps Glenn Kessler?) who has done focus group research testing the effect of negative ads from both campaigns on undecided voters.  What he has found over and over is that the negative ads are having no net effect in making the voters more or less likely to vote for either the attacker or the attackee, but they decrease the favorability rating of both.  He attributes this mostly to the lousy quality of the ads - says they are mostly just reactive to the day's news without sticking to an overall theme about the candidate bewing attacked. He thinks these ads are just being thrown out there in a rush with no thought or research done - candidates have money to burn.

    He says the kind of ads undecided voters are responding best to are the ones that offer a solution to a problem.

    It will be interesting to see the ads going forward.

    Focus groups are the wrong thing to cite (none / 0) (#83)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:14:08 PM EST
    for these purposes. People say they don't like negative ads because they know they're not supposed to. But the point of negative ads is the raise the other guy's unfavorables. And usually, they do.

     Negative ads move numbers. No question.


    In Nebraska, (none / 0) (#87)
    by eric on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:31:29 PM EST
    apparently the legislature is surprised that people would take them up on their offer:

    2 More Kids Abandoned; 11 Total In Past 24 Hours

    My favorite quote:

    "I'm absolutely surprised. When this bill was being discussed in the legislature, we had the discussion that this was going to be about young children and when they were in immediate danger," Heineman said at an opening for an early childhood care center in Millard. "Like the rest of the country, we wanted to be there to help. Unfortunately they wrote the language too broad. We now need to amend that to change that."

    They only wanted "to help", except for you know, it was easier to pass a bill than to actually help.  People are dropping off their kids....guess what?  THEY NEED HELP!

    Now, since the kids are too old or don't seem to meet the standard of "immediate danger", they don't qualify.  The solution:  charge the parents.

    Sure, that'll solve the problem.  We are truly a nation turned against itself.

    Well, in the bad old days (none / 0) (#105)
    by Fabian on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:39:33 PM EST
    that father of nine wouldn't have dropped his kids off at the hospital, he would have "gone off to look for work" and never be heard of again.

    Ok, I'm still wrapping my head (none / 0) (#112)
    by nycstray on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:06:01 PM EST
    around this. Parents dumping their kids?! Deciding they don't want to be parents anymore?!

    Sheesh . . . .


    It's f*cked up.... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 06:49:50 PM EST
    no doubt about it...hate to judge though because people can find themselves in bad places.  Guy's wife dies after childbirth, got nine kids...probably just snapped.

    At least he didn't "snap" snap like those real horror stories you read about.

    Which is why its a good idea not to criminalize a parent in such a situation...as hard as it is to accept.  



    I didn't realize his wife died (none / 0) (#120)
    by nycstray on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 07:31:32 PM EST
    and yes, it is better than snapping. My views are a bit colored by the animal shelter experience where people dump their animals because they are going on vacation or they decided the dog was too big even though they lived with it for 10yrs. For many, animal shelters are a convenience, when they are really supposed to be for those in need.

    Obviously my opinion of people isn't too high today!


    Some people... (none / 0) (#121)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 07:57:03 PM EST
    should be shot, I hear ya...all you can do is try to do right.

    Indeed (none / 0) (#124)
    by eric on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:15:12 PM EST
    if one has come so far as to drop off one's kids, one is probably in desperate straits.

    Is this good?  Of course not.  But it's not the kid's fault and we, as a society, should take care of them.  

    Can't take care of the kids?  That's a tragedy that we can help with, at least in my world view.


    Obama's new equal pay add with (none / 0) (#100)
    by Newt on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:18:47 PM EST
    straight talkin' Lilly Ledbetter:


    If you are dim (none / 0) (#103)
    by eric on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:27:46 PM EST
    enough to believe the content of this email, then their is little hope for you anyway.

    the comment you are replying to (none / 0) (#109)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 04:41:56 PM EST
    was deleted. You may not reprint the works of others here. This space is for comments. You can quote a paragraph or two and link, but no more than that.

    NY Cops kill jumper (none / 0) (#107)
    by TomStewart on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:58:07 PM EST
    NYC police tasered a guy standing on a ledge threatening to jump, causing him to fall to his death.

    Nude man Tasered

    Those... (none / 0) (#110)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 04:43:56 PM EST
    ...nude, ledge walking, light-bulb wielding New Yorkers certainly pose a huge menance to society.

    Almost as much of one as the hot dogs they had to blow-up in Philly.  



    But we are supposed to fear... (none / 0) (#119)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 07:16:44 PM EST
    a world without taser wielding droogs, fear the 107,787-1 shot of dying in an explosion, fear a world without Goldman Sachs.

    FDR, love 'em or hate 'em, sure nailed it when he told us what it is we should fear.


    And to fear... (none / 0) (#122)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 08:01:22 PM EST
    ...anyone that is remotely different than us in any way or any manner.  And believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the "free market"...

    Say--speaking of fear--how are those Mets doing?  They going to make it?


    Well played Mile.... (none / 0) (#126)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 09:48:57 AM EST
    They've got me scared sh*tless.

    Pulled it out last night, thank the baseball gods, after the previous games big choke job.  One back of the Phils and dead even with the Brew-crew for the wildcard with 3 to go...I hope my heart can stand it:)


    Bill Clinton's recent statement about McCain (none / 0) (#108)
    by Realleft on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 04:15:52 PM EST
    Help me, this is not CDS, and I could go on about any other left-leaning blog to hear that kind of reaction if I wanted, but I'm asking here because I can't get more balanced perspectives.  I want to understand why Bill Clinton keeps saying things like this, about McCain "suspending" his campaign (while the campaign staff keep right on working on the campaign)and asking to postpone the debate:

    "I presume he did that in good faith since I know he wanted -- I remember he asked for more debates to go all around the country and so I don't think we ought to overly parse that,"

    Of course, some believe he is not really supportive of Obama, which I don't believe, and others say he is ambivalent due to the primary history.  Maybe he really thinks McCain's stunt wasn't really a stunt, though he'd be in a small group thinking that from what I can tell.  Or maybe he's trying to raise expectations for McCain's debate performance in contrast to the not-very-helpful theme floating around that McCain was scared of debating Obama (which of course works in McCain's favor when the debate happens and he comes across okay).

    Any thoughts?

    Breaking Financial News (none / 0) (#118)
    by robrecht on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 06:55:52 PM EST
    JP Morgan seems to be buying Wamu's assets, deposits, and branches, but NOT their stock.

    Who will do time though for any of it? (none / 0) (#125)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 06:26:32 AM EST