Palin's Pastors

Want to know why James Dobson is so fired up about McCain/Palin when he refused to support McCain before her addition to the Republican ticket?

I've opined before it's to get the evangelical vote, but Harper's has done a little more research.

Since becoming governor in 2006, Palin has attended the Juneau Christian Center, where Mike Rose serves as senior pastor. Her previous pastor was David Pepper of the Church on the Rock in Palin’s hometown of Wasilla — a church that “was kind of a foundation for her.”

Here's a sample of their sermons: [More...]

Mike Rose, senior pastor at Juneau Christian Center:

From a July 8, 2007 sermon: “Those that die without Christ have a horrible, horrible surprise.”

David Pepper, senior pastor at Church on the Rock:

From an November 25, 2007 sermon: “The purpose for the United States is… to glorify God. This nation is a Christian nation.”

From an October 28, 2007 sermon: “God will not be mocked. I don’t care what the ACLU says. God will not be mocked. I don’t care what atheists say. God will not be mocked. I don’t care what’s going on in the nation today with so much horrific rebellion and sin and things that take place. God will not be mocked. Judgment Day is coming. Where do you stand?”

Several Mike Rose’s sermons are available here. while David Pepper’s can be reviewed here.

We'd all be better off if the candidates left religion out of politics. But since they don't, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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  • Display: Sort:
    This is pretty standard fire and (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:47:39 AM EST
    brimstone fare.

    Now if a pastor preached (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:00:45 AM EST
    Barack Obama was personally responsible for oppression of Caucasians in the USA, for example.

    This could have been said in (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Grace on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:47:36 AM EST
    a Catholic church:

    "Those that die without Christ have a horrible, horrible surprise."

    No kidding (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by BernieO on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:27:33 AM EST
    This pope went backwards on this recently declaring other religions to be defective and basically not true churches.

    Not the ones I grew up in (none / 0) (#53)
    by robrecht on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:13:37 AM EST
    There was a famous priest quite some time ago who was excommunicated for emphasizing that outside the church there was no salvation.

    I haven't attended in years but I know the last few popes have been very conservative--yet they can't really reverse this position.


    Obama supporters (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by BernieO on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:24:26 AM EST
    need to stay far away from this topic. Reverend Wright is at least as bad as this guy, who is not saying anything as outlandish as Wright did (not that I agree with him, btw).

    That's what I was thinking... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kredwyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:22:01 AM EST
    Actually worse. (none / 0) (#72)
    by hairspray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:05:00 PM EST
    A few days ago someone posted about the Supreme court Justice that Palin nominated.  He was a straight down the middle high quality non ideologue.  Lets just stick to actions here.  And again, I do believe the stuff Wright said is much more harmful so if the Dems bring this up the GOP will play Jeremiah night and day.  Ugh!

    "Christian" requires accepting Christ (5.00 / 0) (#52)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:49:11 AM EST
    as your saviour, and only Christians go to Heaven.

    That has been in the rule book for a couple of millenia now, so I don't think anyone (believer or not) is gonna be shocked and dismayed to hear a Christian minister saying that.

    If all this stuff didn't matter back in March, it doesn't matter now.


    No it doesn't. (none / 0) (#65)
    by progressiveinvolvement on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:28:19 AM EST
    That's a baptist position, but is NOT the position of most denominations.

    I just don't get these people (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:53:49 AM EST
    Perhaps my mind just doesn't work that way. But when I hear these kinds of religious messages I just break out laughing. I can't help it.

    Thats Pretty Tame (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by Far Leftie on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:02:42 AM EST
    Standard sermon transcripts there. Not everything requires the media to rush out and start screaming fire.

    I have said it before, before long she will be portrayed as the victim and winds up being a superhero.

    Well I don't give 2 sh!ts what Dr Pepper (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:06:13 AM EST
    says, I WILL mock god and I WILL mock "christians" who use their "christianity" to reinforce their narrow and bigoted hatred.

    Ya listening out there Donnie McClurkin?  Sarah Palin?

    I say let's just L-E-A-V-E the religiousity out once and for all.  Do we really need to go down that road considering Obama's church past?  And that other pastor who made McCain look bad?

    ISSUES...for the love of Joyce DeWitt....ISSUES!

    I gather you didn't care for the (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:10:18 AM EST
    closing line of each and every speech at the DNC?  God Bless America!!!!!

    that's standard fare (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:16:47 AM EST
    besides I was in absentia to this year's lovefest for Senator Obama.  

    They have to say it.  And I don't care.  But when the pontification gets so obnoxious, well, they lose me, big time.


    I liked the opening invocation even less (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:20:59 AM EST
    -- the one by the preacher picked to prayerfully  denounce the Democratic platform.  

    That was a stopper.  I mean, you could not make this sh*t up.


    Yeah because to them (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:28:38 AM EST
    the republican god who tells bush to go to war is far superior to the democratic god that tells kucinich to have a dept of peace.


    It's best i don't comment anymore on anything religious because I don't want to offend believers on this site.  My views on religion are WAY too extreme and I might get ushered outta here pretty quick.

    Good night all. Hope for the best with that monster Gustav.  We have 4500 here from Louisiana in Fort Worth.  Tomorrow I go see what I can do to help.


    OT - Gustav predicted to stall (none / 0) (#45)
    by Fabian on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:09:12 AM EST
    over NE TX after it comes through LA.  There may be heavy rains and flooding.

    TS Hannah is predicted to crawl along the FL Keys towards the penninsula.

    Two more low pressure systems making their way across the Atlantic.

    Google "wunderground tropical" for the big picture.


    I don't think all Christians believe that (none / 0) (#77)
    by hairspray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:25:04 PM EST
    the GOP is their savior. It is the funamentalist groups of each religion that has become zealous.  Shades of Savonarella!

    Wasn't this the FIRST time EVER (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:31:55 AM EST
    that every evening of the Democratic Convention ended with a preacher/pastor/whatever doing a prayer?

    And weren't all of them Christian? I know Jesus was dragged into it a couple of times. As a Jew, I was aghast; as an atheist I was mortified!

    Does the GOP Convention usually do the prayer thing like that?


    That's a point that I made about the (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by DeborahNC on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:56:00 AM EST
    "debate" between McCain and Obama on religious issues. It was offensive enough that they were even HAVING such a discussion, but that they excluded the religious beliefs ( or lack of) held by many other Americans was just unacceptable.

    no, the religious leaders were from (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:33:22 AM EST
    all demoninations, including Muslim and Jewish.

    'all'? (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by DaleA on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:39:14 AM EST
    Somehow I missed the Hindu and Buddhist, not to mention the Wiccan and New Age. When did the Native American clergy speak? The chosen clergy ran the spectrum of religious believe from A to D. Leaving out the whole breadth of religion important to many regular Democratic voters.

    I also doubt there ... (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:15:57 AM EST
    was a Scientologist invocation.

    I wonder if a Unitarian pastor spoke, which I believe is the denomination of Barack's grandparents.


    Bet he doesnt want that fact (none / 0) (#49)
    by BernieO on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:30:52 AM EST
    to get out.
    I loved the joke about someone burning a question mark on a Unitarian's front lawn to intimidate them. It surprises me how few people know anything about this denomination. I think it would be a good fit for a lot of people, but they have no idea there is such a thing as a "non-doctrinal" church.

    Great point, that the religion of (none / 0) (#75)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:41:21 PM EST
    Obama's grandparents wasn't represented at the convention. I'd say it has to be all or, preferably, nothing.

    It is my understanding that Unitarians are reasonably PROGRESSIVE i.e. belief in God isn't a prerequisite. Maybe that's why it wasn't included.


    Cream City, one clarification (none / 0) (#73)
    by Monda on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:09:02 PM EST
    If you are talking about the opening night, that was archbishop Demetrios, head of the Greek Orthodox Church.  He is not just any "preacher".  Furthermore, I thought he was well chosen, because 43 years ago, Archbishop Iakovos made the cover of Time Magazine as the only head of major church to march in Selma side by side with Dr. Martin Luther King.  

    Yes, I'm a leftist who believes in God.  


    No, it was an African American preacher (none / 0) (#90)
    by Cream City on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 04:48:24 PM EST
    so I doubt it was a Greek Orthodox priest.

    I happen to know a lot about the Greek Orthodox, worry not.  Grew up in a neighborhood around the corner from a GO church, lots of neighbors, etc.


    That (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:56:31 AM EST
    was my thought. These guys sound like run of the mill evangelicals but they unfortunately aren't worse than Rev. Wright. I'm suprised that anyone would want to bring up her pastors considering Obama's huge pastor problem.

    LOL, Joyce DeWitt (none / 0) (#9)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:12:46 AM EST
    Love that part. I think we should do a whole three's company topic. No, just kidding. :-)

    I would love that (none / 0) (#51)
    by BernieO on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:48:57 AM EST
    If Dems have to talk about it, I wish they would just refer to following Jesus' example of valuing each individual, no matter how powerless. You don't have to be a true believer to sign on to that  principle, and to me it is the core of what distinguishes the values of the Democratic party from the Republicans. I also think from a pragmatic point of view reducing poverty and building a strong middle class is a necessary condition for a stable, healthy democracy, whether you care about the poor or not.

    I once read a great article about this issue by Thom Hartmann (I think), but I can't find it now. He pointed out how necessary a strong middle class is for democracy and that no country has ever had a large, prosperous middle class without deliberate government programs. The natural order of things is to have a small, wealthy elite that controls everything and a large underclass that does their bidding with relatively few in the middle, as we have seen time and time again in third world countries.

    Come to think of it this is a timely topic for Labor Day. We have only to look at our own history to see how natural it is for the wealthy to exploit the powerless to do the dirty work. There is nothing about this arrangement which is remotely Christian, nor is it good for democracy. Too bad so many Americans have no clue what the labor movement has done for all of us. They do not realize that the continual degradation of workers compensation and protections are a direct result of the deliberate weakening of unions by the right. (Ironically Palin and her husband are both union members, btw. Wonder how she will deal with the issue of unions.)


    Kevin Phillips wrote a whole book on (none / 0) (#78)
    by hairspray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:28:38 PM EST
    that topic.  It was called "Wealth and Democracy."

    Sermons (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by Pianobuff on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:11:32 AM EST
    If sermon content becomes a point of comparison, I'm not sure who wins that one.

    How often does Palin attend services? (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by EL seattle on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:15:38 AM EST
    Does the whole family go?  Are they involved with other aspects of the church?  Is one member of the family more active than others?  Moreover, is it part of a social/community thing for her, or a devoutly religious Mission experience?

    To me, the phrase "was kind of a foundation for her" could suggest a fairly casual connection between Palin's church-going and the rest of her life.  It seems to be the sort of description that Hillary Clinton would use to describe her faith. And also Biden, and Obama as well.

    I read she goes to different Christian (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Prabhata on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:05:56 AM EST
    churches, but I can't remember the website.  I think she does that since she became governor, but attended just one church when she lived in Wasilla.

    Even that is not telling (none / 0) (#50)
    by BernieO on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:36:42 AM EST
    My parents were devout Catholics and pretty conservative but they in no way believed in shoving their religion down other people's throats. They opposed school vouchers for religious schools and always supported public school levys even when they had no kids in them anymore. (There were no Catholic schools where I grew up, except for a couple of years. This was Bible Belt territory, so there were not enough of us.)
    I have read several times that Palin is more of a libertarian, which is very common in Alaska. IF (and that is a big "if") that is true, then I think her religious beliefs are less of a threat. There are plenty of other issues that she differs from Democrats on, so we should not get too fussed about this, although we should not dismiss the concern, either.

    Well I read her (none / 0) (#54)
    by Jjc2008 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:17:00 AM EST
    questionairre answers, done for her bid for governor.

    She seems pretty much typical of the evangelical type that lives here, near me, in the shadow of Dobson's Focus on the Family.  They are activists and as a public school educator, I don't think they are "typical."  They challenge any and everything.

    I had my kids one year when we were studying Maya Culture as a part of science, make their own plater of paris glyphs....hyroglyphic sqaure using symbols of the Maya culture.
    An angry Focus on the Family parent came screaming in my classroom that I was teaching Paganism and if I did that why not Christianity and that her son's glyp was going to show something about Jesus.

    And I was not unique in having been harrassed. Believe me the Donsonites here have done any and everything to destroy public education here....and according to her questionairre she goes along with that...from vouchers to home schooling to pushing curriculum that suits evangelicals in public schools.

    Theses type of Christians are not harmless, at least not when it comes to public education.


    I think that Dobson is a power (none / 0) (#80)
    by hairspray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:34:39 PM EST
    freak and he is not mainstream religion. Maybe mainstream fundie.  There are plenty "born agains' like Jimmy Carter who do not mix church and state.  So far, given her AK Supreme court pick and others she has been reported to be a pragmatist, not an ideologue. Where are people getting the idea that she is for taking away women's rights?  Bob Casey of PA is a big Pro-lifer as well as several other Dems, but they don't espouse that.  We may fear the GOP in this respect, but lets not get hysterical.

    Her answers (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jjc2008 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:20:40 PM EST
    in the questionairre, quite frankly, frightened me.
    Any politician putting forth those views would not be anyone I would vote for ...and it was more than just about pro choice and women's rights.

    I have read her statements to the (none / 0) (#85)
    by hairspray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:44:41 PM EST
    fact that she does not believe her values have any role in her government duties (something to that effect) I would not believe her if she has not had a pretty decent record. My Momma always told me to watch what they do and not what they say.  I am not voting for them, but I saw how Hillary was skewered and I don't trust the DNC either.  Nancy Peloisi, Steny Hoyer, etc.  no way.

    Well there is something (none / 0) (#86)
    by Jjc2008 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 09:04:50 PM EST
    we can agree on.  The DNC sucks and should be taken to task by ALL women, and all democrats.  But that is a different issue.
    I have no need to defend this person.  Whether Palin is male or female, one look at how she thinks (according to her) and how she ran her town, would make me very doubtful I could ever vote for this person.  Granted she hasn't done much damage.  But she's only been the governor for 18 months.

    And seriously I do not count being the Mayor of a small town as proof of much of anything.  As it is, what I read she left the town in debt with lots of Big Box stores (like Walmar) and gravel pits.


    Why would any Obama supporter (5.00 / 9) (#11)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:15:49 AM EST
    Bring up crazy stuff said by pastors?

    The cliche needs to be reversed (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:18:11 AM EST
    here, as the goose is the female, and the gander is the male.

    The meaning here actually is, I think, that what was "good" aka news about Obama (the gander) ought to be news about Palin (the goose).

    It probably won't be, though, unless her pastors did videos while dancing in the pulpit and emulating intercourse with it to mock a sitting president for his extramarital idiocy.  And . . . you know the rest.

    For those reasons, though, and leaving waterfowl out of it, I don't get why this is good for the Dems.  Such tactics that only serve to remind of problematic pasts -- of both the nominee and the spouse of the person that the nominee wants to work the campaign for him -- well, such tactics passeth all understanding for me.


    Pretty tame compared to Rev. Wright's (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:46:42 AM EST
    spew...If you have ever attended a christian
    church, for the most part they contend you are going to receive a horrible surprise if you aren't born again.  And what is a "kind of a foundation".  These kinds of reports will surely help bring Rev. Wright back to the forefront.

    Obama woos the Christian right (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Prabhata on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:59:53 AM EST
    And wants to expand the faith based initiatives.  I can't get excited about these sermons.

    It's very ill-advised for the Dems to raise (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by DeborahNC on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:01:11 AM EST
    the issue of Gov. Palin's religious beliefs. Rev. Wright, anyone? Dangerous, very dangerous!

    the Democrats aren't raising it (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:00:25 AM EST
    The media is. Harper's magazine. And I am reporting on it. She's an evangelical, anti-choice Republican.   How far will she bring her religion into her governing? Will the Supreme Court Justice she and McCain pick be the swing vote that allows prayer back in school and the Ten Commandments posted on government property?

    I think religion, in general, should be kept out (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by DeborahNC on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:20:21 AM EST
    of government, and if Democrats willingly enter into the discussion we're asking for trouble. Democrats should discourage the Republicans' tendency to conflate these two separate aspects of American life.

    If we focus on this issue with Palin, then we invite a re-focusing on the controversy that Rev. Wright brought to the national political arena.

    Politically, it would be worse for the Democratic party if religion were to take center stage again, because many Americans, even Democrats, would be more sympathetic to her religious practices than those of Obama, at least while he was in Rev. Wright's church. Also, the Muslim issue could re-surface.

    I just think that the more we (Dems) can downplay religion during this election, the more it will benefit us.

    Also, I'm not comfortable with Obama's willingness to be a part of that religious forum moderated by Rev. Warren. If we want to keep religion out of government, Democrats need to be the leaders on that front and to remember that the issue has greater potential damage to our Party in the 2008 presidential election.


    I respectfully disagree. By talking about (none / 0) (#82)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:42:21 PM EST
    Palin's potential to bring religion into politics, we help prevent our own party's ability to do the same thing.  The Obama/Wright/TUCC/anti-government/anti-white stuff is already out there.  It's already been in everybody's faces for months.  And our opponents will continue to pass it around online ad nauseam.  Meanwhile, our own party has a bunch of people who are fearful of Obama's outreach to evangelicals.  They're (reasonably) concerned about what it means for our party and our government.  We should be approaching this head on:  We need votes from evangelicals, we believe in tolerance and acceptance in religion and beliefs, and we stand firmly behind the separation of church and state.

    By discussing the downside of religion in politics in terms of Palin's background, we can clarify that our party doesn't want Wright's version of white=bad or American=bad promoted either.  We can establish once and for all that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.


    Can we say the same about (none / 0) (#60)
    by zfran on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:00:56 AM EST
    Obama? How could someone be in a church for 20 years, filled with fire and brimstone, and not be affected in his life by it. What is different between being a "christrian" and what Gov. Palin's religion is? Jesus Christ isn't a saviour for many, does that make them incapable of governing? I don't see your point here Jeralyn!

    Then it is worth examining her picks (none / 0) (#81)
    by hairspray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:37:45 PM EST
    as a governor.  Why not post the credentials of the Supreme court justice she just picked?

    Indeed! That movie had some interesting messages. (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by DeborahNC on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:19:39 AM EST

    To all you people comparing (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:55:04 AM EST
    Palin's pastors with Obama's pastor, I think I just realized that there is a very clear difference.  A fundamental difference between Democrats and Republicans on this issue.

    There can be no confusing the two, and nothing could be more clear.

    Whereas Palin and her pastor would exploit politics to achieve their religious goals, what we have with Rev. Wright and Barack Obama and this new approach we see in the democratic party is something that is unmistakably different, and in fact, the polar opposite.

    The exploitation of religion to achieve political goals.

    Hope springs eternal kids.

    What I find interesting is (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by TN Dem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:22:26 AM EST
    how I feel as a Christian who happens to be a Democrat reading some of the comments re Palin.

    It is astonishing to me how much my Liberal and Democratic Progressive friends are starting to sound like the Republicans I have known all my life here in East TN.

    I consider myself a Progressive Christian because I do not believe that my beliefs are the only viable beliefs, but I would be considered to be a creationist.

    Suddenly, I find that among many "progressives" I am considered backward, stupid and laughable.

    I thought we were the party of tolerance? It seems that many of us have about as much tolerance as those we proclaim to challenge.

    Tn Dem- I should think that (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by kenosharick on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:29:23 AM EST
    the treatment of Sen. Clinton by most of the party establishment and much of the left would have disavowed you of any notion of this being a party of "tolerance."

    LOL, (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by TN Dem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:28:45 AM EST
    Very true kenosharick!
    At least no one can say I've lost hope! ;o)

    I'm a Christian too (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by progressiveinvolvement on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:32:59 AM EST
    But if all I knew of Christianity was right-wing blabbermouths, I wouldn't be.

    Absolutely! (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by TN Dem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:36:44 AM EST
    I am in the same boat.

    I guess the choice I was trying to brinbg attention to, is whether to ridicule, be-little and promote fear, or to lead by example by providing a demonstration of acceptance and understanding?


    What in the world? (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by americanincanada on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:04:45 AM EST
    Are we seriously going to go here? Really? Palin has shown in the past absolutely no inclination to force her personal views through legislation or policy positions. Jeralyn herself showed us a judicial pick that was straight down the line. for the love of god that LAST thing Obama needs is to bring religion and pastors into the mix again.

    Have I stumbled onto DKos?!?!?

    In reading the overview, (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Jane2009 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:07:06 AM EST
    it seems to me that the sermons are addressing basically a theoretical personal relationship with God (I haven't gone through the list for time constraint reasons). However, I'll have a lot more issues if Palin is quoted as saying something like, "I don't want my religion as opposed to my civil reasoning to determine my political views, but you know, it really does," to wit:

    In an interview with the Chicago Daily Tribune, Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

    If anyone has a quote by Palin stating that what her religious beliefs say determine her public judgments, I'd like to see that, because I'm trying to get an idea of who she is, and that would definitely tip me into "oh heck noz" territory.

    There are actually quotes from Palin (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by americanincanada on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:11:03 AM EST
    saying exactly the opposite.

    I think the candidates' future actions will depend (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:29:41 PM EST
    on the people that elected them.  With our party, it's about us.  With Repubs, it's about their leadership.  Republicans got a wildcard with Dubya because their party co-opts religion with claims and assumptions that they'll utilize/implement/enforce Christian values in government. In reality, most Repubs do not follow Christian values and have no intention of doing so, and they end up steeped in corruption and implementing a plutocracy instead.  I'm not implying Dem leaders are any less susceptible to corruption than Repubs, but the Democratic party values, platform and electorate help keep church and state separate.  Even though individual Democrats manage to subvert democracy and facilitate their own version of a plutocracy, our party and our electorate continue to block their efforts toward theocratic change.  

    In my opinion, the question is not "What will Obama do, having spent all that time in Wright's church?"  The question is, how much influence so we have on this relatively unknown leader.  We have a good idea what McSame will do.  Obama may still be a wildcard to some, but I'm very sure about the people in our party that are behind him.  We're on the right side of this, and our job is to help mould an Obama administration into something that reflects our party's values.  

    We hope! (none / 0) (#83)
    by hairspray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:47:26 PM EST
    Even though individual Democrats manage to subvert democracy and facilitate their own version of a plutocracy, our party and our electorate continue to block their efforts toward theocratic change.

    If you aren't Christian, I suspect these sermons (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:30:11 AM EST
    as they are tied to Government and the ACLU would be frightening to you. They are to the people who e-mailed them to me.

    Jeralyn, respectfully, I was more frightened (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:38:56 AM EST
    by the fact that the Democratic Nominee (aka the prospective Democratic POTUS) decided that something as godless, and secular, as a political convention should end each night with a prayer.

    If memory serves, you were also far from pleased by that decision.

    And if god is dead, s/he is rolling in the grave.


    And I said so above (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:37:42 AM EST
    My post ends with:

    We'd all be better off if the candidates left religion out of politics. But since they don't, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    I was brought up as a (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by andrys on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:57:45 AM EST
    Southern Baptist, albeit it Chinese Southern Baptist, but fundamentalist nevertheless.

      I still retain a love of that story, the teachings, which I feel are the basis for the Democrats' philosophy - of taking care of the least of us, of sharing.  

      So I don't have the same reaction your friends probably have.  It's Obama who is asking for money for faith-based activities and possibly even a cabinet post, it was said.  It was not dismissed as a possibility.  He wants money to train churches to get more federal funding/grant for the work they'd do.  As you know, that work tends to come with strings.

      He wants to bring in evangelicals more, and it's playing with fire.  But to a extent I understand his trying to be open to faith-based stuff.  In the Dem convention, they had faith events each day but different faiths from the rest of the world too, were represented.  BUT a huge emphasis on faith, never seen before.  I think he doesn't want Dems to be thought of Godless.  Evangelicals see only one God though.

      Note that Palin has answered quite clearly that she feels there is enough money for faith-based activities.  You helped with research there.


    There were other events that involved (none / 0) (#74)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:32:56 PM EST
    other religions. But weren't ALL of the end-of-evening prayers CHRISTIAN?

    Certainly, that didn't reflect the religious (or non-religious) beliefs of all of the 35 MILLION people watching.


    You're right. Here are details about Faith things (none / 0) (#87)
    by andrys on Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:27:35 AM EST
    From NPR:
    To that end, the Democrats have invited Evangelical pastor Joel C. Hunter, an abortion opponent and registered Republican from Florida, to deliver the benediction on the all-important Thursday night when Obama accepts the presidential nomination. Hunter says unequivocally that life begins at conception and he opposes abortion, but he challenges Democrats and Republicans to deal with the root issues of unwanted children, such as reducing poverty.  

    A liberal's science blog prints the actual email from a communications group doing PR for the DNC events.

     This lists the prayers and meetings.  It also mentions the inter-faith gathering, which is what I must have been reading about.


    I hate to be persnickity (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:07:48 AM EST
    But even christians could be frightened by those sermons insofar as they are interwoven with a Political message.

    I wasn't there but I've heard from some reliable sources that Christ himself said this:


    "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

    That christ himself was an advocate of the separation of church and state is a wonderful thing but I'm beginning to wonder if that means my advocacy for separation of church and state isn't an attempt to bring christ's teachings into the public forum????

    What do you think?


    Do you consider these sermons to (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:41:14 AM EST
    be a negative as to Sarah Palin's fitness for VP?  Politically damaging to the GOP ticket?

    More frightening to me is that (none / 0) (#88)
    by andrys on Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:32:50 AM EST
    an abortion-opponent  was chosen to give the benediction for Obama's acceptance night on Thursday.  This one happened on our side.  In how many ways does Obama move toward the other side, since this was a Republican, moreover.  It's that across-the-aisle thing?

    I'm curious what your friends might think of that.


    And on opening night ... (none / 0) (#89)
    by andrys on Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 04:59:24 AM EST
    ...A popular young evangelical ... changed his mind about delivering the opening night convention prayer because he does not want to be seen as endorsing Sen. Barack Obama.

    Strang is an anti-abortion Republican and the son of well-known evangelical Steven Strang ... "I found out the invocation was to be on the main stage, opening night of the DNC. Part of the national broadcast....

    So, yet another anti-abortion person of faith, this time on opening night.  Book-ending the acceptance speech night, both anti-abortion invocationists to do prayers for us...

      I really don't know what to think.  Would it be important to him that a Supreme Court justice not be anti-choice?


    My fave is my unt's church (none / 0) (#55)
    by kredwyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:20:14 AM EST
    A few miles away from Daytona Beach and the guy preaches on the sins of the bathing suit...and they changed the blue cross they'd been gifted to a red cross.

    She gets to turn her hearing aide off...it's unfair, I tell yeh.

    As I recall in the 60's the pope (none / 0) (#63)
    by zfran on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:07:06 AM EST
    sent out an edict that mini-skirts could not be worn in the church. What kind of silly "power" is that? Catholic worshipers still governed!

    I would not go there (none / 0) (#59)
    by Saul on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:44:39 AM EST
    Listing these things.  You might resurrect  Rev Wright back into the news.  Tit for tat.