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McCain Courts Bikers at Sturgis Rally

John McCain made the rounds at the annual Sturgis, South Dakota motorcycle rally yesterday.

Standing on the main stage at a world famous motorcycle rally in rural South Dakota on Monday, John McCain looked out on a sea of denim-wearing bikers and told them he enjoyed their company much more than that of the 200,000 Germans who turned out to see Barack Obama last month.

“As you may know,” he told the tens of thousands gathered at the 68th annual Sturgis Rally at Buffalo Chip campground, “not long ago, a couple of hundred thousand Berliners made a lot of noise for my opponent. I’ll take the roar of fifty thousand Harleys any day.”

The bikers roared their approval by revving their engines. [More...]

Bikers in the crowd, who had arrived from around the country to partake in the massive outdoor party, revved their engines numerous times in support of the presumptive GOP nominee. McCain said it was music to his ears. “This is my first time here,” he said, “but I recognize that sound. It’s the sound of freedom.”

What about the Obama supporters?

If there were any Obama supporters to be found in the vast Buffalo Chip campground, they kept quiet.

Talking Points Memo takes McCain to task for offering his wife Cindy as a contestant in the topless Ms. Buffalo Chips contest.

I encouraged Cindy to compete, McCain said to cheers. I told her with a little luck she could be the only woman ever to serve as first lady and Miss Buffalo Chip.
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  • Class act all the way (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by trublueCO on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:09:41 PM EST
    From the CNN article:

    Indeed, McCain felt so comfortable at the event that he even volunteered his wife for the rally's traditional beauty pageant, an infamously debauched event that's been known to feature topless women.

    "I encouraged Cindy to compete," McCain said to cheers. "I told her with a little luck she could be the only woman ever to serve as first lady and Miss Buffalo Chip."

    So we could sit down, have a beer, and watch his wife compete in topless beauty contest. If that doesn't show he's qualified to be President, I don't know what would!

    not just topless (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by nolo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:54:20 PM EST
    "infamously debauched" is CNN's euphemistic way of saying that the Buffalo Chip contest involves (among other things) bottomless and topless nudity, simulated oral sex, simulated lesbian sex, and a lot of beaver flashing.

    I'm not the first one to observe that if Obama had suggested (even jokingly) that his wife participate in such an event, the election would be over.

    Parent

    Wonder Why That Is? (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:57:41 PM EST
    Must be, IOKIYAR, no?

    Parent
    Another thing (none / 0) (#47)
    by nolo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Can you imagine the republican hue and cry if Obama had gone to Black Bike Week?  The mind boggles.

    Parent
    Nice Link (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:23:19 PM EST
    Did not know about the event. The main outcry would be that Obama was a sissy because he was consorting with wannabees who are into art and stuff.

    Although many of the riders attending Second Street's annual gathering wear the traditional black leather vests and three-piece back patches favored by outlaw motorcycle clubs, Wilson found club rivalries and barroom brawls to be virtually nonexistent. "There's none of that 'clubs at war' stuff, and no sexist rhetoric, no one telling women to take their shirts off," Wilson said.

    What, no one telling women to take their shirts off? They must be gay.

    Parent

    he should book the Black Rebel Motorcycle Club (none / 0) (#61)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:11:02 PM EST
    there ain't no easy way out...

    Parent
    Don't (none / 0) (#151)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:35:06 PM EST
    worry, he won't do that.
    He will not get off script by appearing mortal.

    Parent
    So Sturgis is (none / 0) (#152)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:36:35 PM EST
    only open to white riders?  Or you just want to bring up race because you can't think of anything else to write about.

    Parent
    nice nonsequitur (none / 0) (#179)
    by nolo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:17:26 PM EST
    . . . and it also shows you know very little (or are pretending to know very little) about biker communities.

    Parent
    Those (none / 0) (#187)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:46:29 PM EST
     biker lawyers and doctors are worse than I thought.

    Parent
    The imaginary outrage would imaginarily be ... (none / 0) (#170)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:03:16 PM EST
    ... huge over that imagined event (I imagine.)

    Parent
    IOKIYAR??? (none / 0) (#94)
    by CST on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:35:43 PM EST
    Acronyms should not be that long.  It took me like 6 months to figure out what CDS and ODS meant...

    I have no idea what this means.

    Parent

    google (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by waldenpond on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:49:20 PM EST
    it's ok if your a repub.

    Parent
    Google Is Your Friend (none / 0) (#111)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:47:45 PM EST
    IOKIYAR (none / 0) (#124)
    by rebecca on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:57:41 PM EST
    It's OK if you're a Republican.

    Parent
    Agree completely (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:08:43 PM EST
    Furthermore, if Obama had suggested that, I hope/think Michelle would have clocked him.

    Parent
    Ya never now... (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:13:31 PM EST
    sometimes it's the straight-laced all-business folks who can really let loose.

    I was at a training seminar once where a straight-laced female corporate big-shot gave a speech during the day...and was dancing on the pool table at the hotel bar later that night.

    Ya never know who the party animal is until the party starts...:)

     

    Parent

    My BDSM friends (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Steve M on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:16:58 PM EST
    tell me that lawyers are always the submissive one, for some reason.  I actually found it more intuitive than they did.

    Parent
    I get this Steve - (none / 0) (#173)
    by Xanthe on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:06:34 PM EST
    tired of telling and giving advice.  Willing to be told what to do occasionally.

    Litigators mostly ya think?

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#178)
    by Steve M on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:14:48 PM EST
    Anyone who likes to argue and posture and puff up their feathers for a living.  As it turns out, secretly they're just longing for someone to spank them.

    Parent
    Was at a wedding with a Bushie (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:32:18 PM EST
    bridesmaid in the party -- honest-to-goddess named Muffy or the like -- and guess which one was the wildest, tabletop dirty dancing with beer bottle in hand, etc.?

    We took pictures, of course.  Just in case the li'l Rovian-raised darling decides on a political career.

    Parent

    But is it illegal? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:02:00 PM EST
    Consenting adults and all that...

    No one seemed to care much about Mister Jeff Gannon's access to the White House so what's all the fuss about?  

    Parent

    It's not illegal (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by CST on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    I don't think...

    But neither is stripping and if his wife was a stripper he would not be running for president right now.  Despite the fact that she was a consenting adult.

    Parent

    There's a state (none / 0) (#98)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:37:32 PM EST
    where stripping is illegal?  We(state, local) just try to legislate those businesses into oblivion, somewhat like abortion.

    Parent
    1st Amendment jurisprudence (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Ben Masel on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:41:11 PM EST
    holds local govt's can severely restrict via zoning, but must leave SOME location where adult entertainment is allowed.

    Parent
    There is? (none / 0) (#105)
    by CST on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:41:49 PM EST
    I don't know to be honest.  I know there are states with weird laws like you can't drink booze at strip clubs and such.  I don't know if it is banned outright anywhere though.

    Parent
    It's a joke people (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Roz on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:56:17 PM EST
    Good joke, bad joke, funny joke, tasteless joke, the topic of a another comment, perhaps. But are any of these comments taking into account that John McCain was joking when he tells the crowd he "encouraged Cindy to compete"?

    I can't tell whether you are criticizing his sense of humor or you're offended he would enjoy seeing his wife participate in the contest.

    Parent

    It's only fair to discuss it (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:01:27 PM EST
    since the other presumptive nominee's attempt at humor in this area also were awful.

    And it's only fair for voters to wonder about whether a potential president might make such stoopid statements -- not just in Sturgis and not just in this country.  Ask Angela Merkel.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:18:19 PM EST
    Just a joke, like the one where he called her a c*nt.  The point is that he said it. That is what is being discussed, despite whether or not you think it is funny.

    Besides how do you know whether or not he would like to see his wife try to win the "contest". He seems like the type of guy that would be into it.

     

    Parent

    Are you part of their consent equation? Family? (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:13:07 PM EST
    On what planet do you think the McCains -- in their personal dealings and as a couple who evidently don't require your CONSENT or approval on matters such this -- consider this part of their political campaigning?

    Who gives a sh!t if that's a term of endearment, disparagement or something they toss around randomly if they mutually consent.

    Parent

    The Issue Is Not Consent (2.00 / 1) (#181)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:25:48 PM EST
    But nice of you to change the subject. The issue is that this creep is running for Bush's third term.

    Not a funny joke to be campaigning with, imo.

    Parent

    WTF? Who's changing the subject? For all your (none / 0) (#184)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:42:34 PM EST
    ... stompiness and whingeing on this you'd think YOU were running for a third Bush term.

    And sorry if I don't get in a bunch over the issue of toplessness (much less at at an event where it's apparently a marquee part of the festivities).

    Leave your home, go to a beach sometime in Central or South America or the Mediterranean. It's not a BIG FREAKIN DEAL.

    Parent

    Changing The Subject (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:03:52 PM EST
    Yet again? And making sh*t up to boot. Who said I had a problem with toplessness, or sexuality, public nudity or lewdness of any kind. If I remember correctly you draw the line with gay men having sex in pubic, no? SOmething about protecting the children?

    My problem is with the fact that Chimp111 is offering his wifey up for amusement which seems remarkably similar to other GOP positions regarding women as chattel. Not the example of POTUS I like to see.  

    I would think it a hoot if Cindy made the joke, but not a pig like McSame. In fact I would not care one bit if she sat on his lap bare assnaked on the back of a speedboat, like the Italian leaders do with their spouses.

    Parent

    The toplessness / nudity are expected at the event (none / 0) (#195)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:17:31 PM EST
    ... and unless kids are being harmed, it's a non-issue. If you want to pretend kids were being used there in hardcore sex, please diary it.

    I'm against people being impeded from freely using public areas -- like airport or park restrooms -- due to illegal activities oh Anti Subject Changer.

    Parent

    Again (none / 0) (#197)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:20:01 PM EST
    I have no problem with sex shows, public sexual display,  etc. Stop making believe that is what I am arguing or find problematic about McSames joke.

    Parent
    Sounds like youre the one... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:46:32 PM EST
    that needs to go to a beach.  No reason to get that upset.

    Parent
    Gawd please not another psycho-caca session (none / 0) (#191)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:00:18 PM EST
    ... or feelings reading from a Psychic Friends Network wannabee.

    The nudity isn't a big deal to any of the parties involved and not many of the commentators here so save the trollage.

    Parent

    Wow... (none / 0) (#193)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:05:28 PM EST
    you freak out too easily.  Its just a post, calm down.

    Parent
    Yeah I'm totally freaked n/t (none / 0) (#196)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:18:46 PM EST
    Actually I dont think you are... (none / 0) (#199)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:30:36 PM EST
    I was just messing around.

    Parent
    Huh... (none / 0) (#180)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:21:42 PM EST
    so you think its ok for boys and girls to group up in households where the husband calls his wife a C***, since its under mutual consent.  Interesting, and I bit disturbing.

    Parent
    NB: if they mutually consent (none / 0) (#182)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:31:45 PM EST
    I wasn't aware the home had been cammed.

    If you've got evidence that their kids were being abused, post if you got it.

    Otherwise I'll leave how much imaginary outrage is required to correct this imaginary situation up to you.

    Parent

    The point is... (none / 0) (#186)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:45:04 PM EST
    theres a reason McSames use of the the word C*** is brought up: its a word that demonstrates his lack of respect and shows his true character.  The fact that you dont think children should grow up in a household that uses it regularly shows you also dont think its a good or appropriate word to use, much less to call your own wife.

    Parent
    No, the point is that context and culture matters (none / 0) (#194)
    by Ellie on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:07:59 PM EST
    And tweezing out an anomalous occurrence and attempting to bloom it into an outrage is a ridiculous exercise.

    If's not your call to make.

    C*nt isn't the taboo word to end all words, btw, so THIS trollage is being wasted as well.

    Parent

    Democrats are humorless (none / 0) (#145)
    by Grace on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:27:06 PM EST
    That's the message I'm getting from all these critiques of McCain's ads, his jokes, etc.  Rather than laugh, like almost everyone else is doing, the pundits need to psychoanalyze them (potentially to find the "code" words and the hidden racism).

    The Democrats need to get over this and find some jokes they can throw back.  

    Parent

    Not Humorless When It's Not Funny (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by daring grace on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:35:05 PM EST
    I agree with you that things can get very PC and humorless (especially this campaign season).

    And I agree the Dems need to launch some chuckle bombs back at McCain and the Repubs.

    But I reject the idea that not laughing along with something you don't find funny means you're humorless.

    That kind of message has been used too much to silence people who don't agree with some aspect of a 'joke'.

    Plus, must we all have the same sense of humor?

    Parent

    The Dems really need to throw in some humor (none / 0) (#198)
    by Grace on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:22:11 PM EST
    Polling showed the last two McCain ads (Paris/Moses) were effective and the majority of people got them.  

    I agree everyone doesn't have the same sense of humor, but when was the last time the Obama campaign did anything funny?  

    Parent

    Hmmm Let's See (none / 0) (#156)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:38:54 PM EST
    What could Obama have said in that situation that would be EQUALLY as funny.

    How about this, maybe Michele can mop up the floor afterwards, because I know that y'all don't like black people mixing during business hours.  Just a joke.

    Bwahhhahahahhaha

    Tooo funny.

    Parent

    You are observing (none / 0) (#169)
    by RalphB on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:00:31 PM EST
    the humor challenged at play.  Not a good joke but a joke none the less.  It's something like the breathless, boring analyses of the Moses ad.  It was funny not much else.  Sheesh.

    Parent
    Well Then (none / 0) (#175)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:08:18 PM EST
    You must have of loved my hypothetical joke then.. Har, har, yuk, yuk, real right wing sense of humor y'all must have.

    Got any jewish jokes?

    Parent

    Just out of curiosity... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:31:19 PM EST
    are feminists ok with the whole topless beauty contest thing?  Seems like it wouldnt be all that cool to them.

    Parent
    I was okay with it when I (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Xanthe on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:04:30 PM EST
    was a young Feminist (without all the frills mentioned) but alas - not so much now.  I don't judge young women who have no problem at topless beaches, for example. But I question my more judgmental self now:  is it the wisdom or the aging body?  

    Parent
    If you want some comparison (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:18:23 PM EST
    as a junior high or high school teacher what girls wear so guys will "notice" them.

    I get far more freaked out about barely teen girls competing for boy's attention by dressing extremely provocatively than adult women competing for attention on a stage.  It's essentially the same thing, but I assume the adults know exactly what they are doing.  

    Parent

    Yes - I notice lately how the (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Xanthe on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:24:43 PM EST
    young girls dress in downtown Chicago and at music festivals, etc.  I feel like putting a beach towel over some of the young ones - but I think it is a question of defending innocence a bit longer -

    I just remember telling myself when I was young and somewhat wild - remember this when you get older.  Don't be an old biddy.  Ah perspective - it will change.  

    And now I hear I am a dead ender - who knew?  I didn't have daughters - I have a son- that adds to the mix as well.

    Parent

    It was the (none / 0) (#90)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:34:32 PM EST
    story of a girl wearing a tube top that she had to constantly pull up and a pair of less than opaque white pants with clearly no underwear at school that blew me away.  I can't imagine any boys in her class heard half of what their teachers said.

    Save it for the weekend, please!

    Parent

    I don't think this is a matter of beauty contests (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by LatinoDC on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:27:53 PM EST
    I think that's a different subject.  The problem with this whole story is that McCain "encouraged"  his wife to participate in a topless contest.  This is not a beauty contest, where other things are taken into account (which is why it is controversial), or a religious gathering, where people do what they do because they believe in it...as someone else mentioned before, if she had said it, it would be kind of different (her decision), but I think McCain's encouragement denotes a different thing..

    Parent
    Chattel (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:35:25 PM EST
    Guess that is why GOPers are so against gay marriage, it is too hard to determine which partner is chattel.

    Parent
    I will have to quote you (none / 0) (#108)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:45:25 PM EST
    What a wonderful line.  It is going to LGBT friends fast!

    Parent
    No Need To Quote Me (none / 0) (#189)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:51:35 PM EST
    Thanks, I thought it was a good one too, .. It is all yours to use as you please... A gift.

    Parent
    McCain made a tasteless joke at his wife's (none / 0) (#143)
    by esmense on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:19:52 PM EST
    expense -- but I doubt that he actually "encouraged" her to participate in the contest. Two entirely different things.

    However any of us may feel about his doing so, I think this campaign season has demonstrated plenty of reasons to think that demonstrated sexism on the part of male politicians, pundits, and other powerful cultural figures is much of, if at all, a detriment to their careers and public standing.

    Parent

    Agree - (none / 0) (#163)
    by Xanthe on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:50:28 PM EST
    it is unseemly - and kinda creepy.  She seems a nice lady in many respects and I note he often seems to ignore her.  But who knows what goes on in a marriage.

    Parent
    Not OK with it here (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:07:22 PM EST
    Specifically, not OK with him 'offering up' his wife for the contest (which is, in essence, the subtext). Strikes me as disgusting. If SHE had talked about it, it might be different, but still gross considering the crowd. He's a pig IMO with regards to women. Always has been.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#72)
    by CST on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:18:04 PM EST
    There is a huge difference between a woman choosing, on her own, to participate; and a man, especially a husband "offering her up".

    Parent
    Maybe they have a dom/sub (none / 0) (#78)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:22:42 PM EST
    relationship?  

    Parent
    I recently read the town square (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:37:03 PM EST
    in Arcada, in Humboldt Co., CA, permits topless women, but also has security cameras and police presence.

    Parent
    Im just asking... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:44:59 PM EST
    since most feminists Ive ever talked to were never fans of beauty contests to begin with, much less topless ones.

    Parent
    Gov of Alaska was a beauty contestant ;) (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by nycstray on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:51:24 PM EST
    This feminist... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:52:08 PM EST
    tends not to prescribe what a woman can and can't do with her body.

    I understand the part about objectification of women by way of the "oggle factor." However, I've also been to very large pagan gatherings where clothing is completely optional for the whole week/weekend...and lots of women take part.

    Parent

    True... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:00:53 PM EST
    but the differences between a beauty pageant and a pagan gathering - one being focused on objectifying women while the other is a religious ceremony - seem to bring that comparison into question.

    Parent
    Objectifying women? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:08:51 PM EST
    Tabloid covers.
    "Women's" magazines.
    "Men's" magazines.
    Advertising, much of it.
    Fashion.
    Make up.

    Women are objectified constantly.  Sturgis doesn't bother to put a "pretty face" on it.  (Yet another example of objectification.)


    Parent

    Have you ever been (none / 0) (#59)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:09:45 PM EST
    to a pagan gathering? You aren't engaged in a religious ceremony when you're wandering up and down Merchant Row with nothing but a smile.

    Parent
    I have been to pagan gatherings... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:13:31 PM EST
    which were more religious based than those that youve attended, Id say.  But I think wondering around nude and trying to look pretty enough to be deemed acceptable in a contest are very different things.

    Parent
    Doubt it... (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:17:02 PM EST
    but I'm not interested in playing "one up games" and I can't afford to go to WitchCamp.

    Suffice it to say that I've gone to gatherings that have run the spectrum from fun/sun to downright serious.

    Starwood was my fave...cause you could have both.

    Parent

    Good lord... (none / 0) (#80)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:23:58 PM EST
    Im not interested in playing "one up games" either.  I was only saying that the tenor of the gatherings we've separately gone to were different, nothing more.

    Parent
    and all I'm saying... (none / 0) (#89)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:31:21 PM EST
    is you can't make the assumption that you "have been to pagan gatherings...which were more religious based than those that youve attended, Id say."

    Parent
    Fine... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:36:40 PM EST
    but dont just assume Im trying to one up you.

    Parent
    okay... (none / 0) (#104)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:41:46 PM EST
    but it kinda reads that way...

    ::shrug:: just saying.

    Parent

    It may read like that... (none / 0) (#133)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:07:47 PM EST
    But please give me the benefit of the doubt.

    Youre one of the posters I respect, so having an adversarial dynamic is fine, but I don't want a contentious one.

    Parent

    Plus modern dance. (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:02:52 PM EST
    Topless modern dance? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    Are you referring to the art form of modern dance or just going to strip clubs?

    Parent
    I am referring to the art form. (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:09:25 PM EST
    Sometimes includes nudity, both male and female.

    Parent
    Had a friend who was a stripper... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:10:54 PM EST
    and fierce feminist.

    Parent
    funny (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:13:25 PM EST
    so did I.  she always said what she did was the ultimate expression of feminism.  

    Parent
    Now thats an interesting conversation... (none / 0) (#75)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:20:23 PM EST
    I know of feminists who would call those people ignorant and betraying 'the cause'.  So is even feminism too loose of a term to adequately state what does and doesnt fit into a coherent consensus of a definition?  

    Seems like you'd have to define what objectification is and apply it to modern situations.  So in terms of the stripper feminist, how is it benefiting the societal respect and dignity of women for someone to use their physical traits to garner money from men?

    Parent

    Dignity? (5.00 / 0) (#86)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:27:35 PM EST
    Not sure why you think that there is no dignity in strippers? Same goes for male strippers in your book? How about fashion models, or athletes? They use their bodies too..

    Parent
    Thats partly my question... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:35:11 PM EST
    is it degrading to strip?  If not, how does it benefit society's perception of women?  If so, why is it degrading?

    But to answer your question directly squeaky, I dont know if there is no dignity in stripping.  Im curious to what women think about this issue.

    Parent

    If (none / 0) (#106)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:42:37 PM EST
    they do it of their own free will, then there is nothing inherently degrading about stripping.  Male or female.

    Parent
    Key words (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by CST on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:45:54 PM EST
    "free will"

    Also, just to clarify, my post about if she was a stripper she wouldn't be first lady has nothing at all to do with whether or not she should be first lady, just that, in our society, it wouldn't happen.

    Parent

    Thanin, re this and your earlier comment (none / 0) (#107)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:43:14 PM EST
    most helpful to you may be reading up on feminism, as yes, there are many forms of it.  Just as there are many Dems with different ideas across a wide spectrum in a party that promotes anti-abortion candidates, after all.

    A good source is Cott's Grounding of Modern Feminism on social feminists, radical feminists, and more.

    Most intriguing to many of us, of course, are the self-proclaimed non-feminists who say they are for equality for all.  They buy into conservatives' branding of the "f-word."  But they are feminists.

    They're an interesting group in my courses in women's history, I'll tell ya.  

    Parent

    Last week I was wandering around the (none / 0) (#134)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:10:31 PM EST
    romance writers links of one blog looking for plot stuff and other things re: a chick lit book I'm working on.

    Wound up in a blog discussing how to write sex scenes.

    Wow.

    The thing that I like is that the characters have become far stronger since Barbara Cartland's waif characters. These characters know what they want...and they're more than simple cardboard characters waiting around to be ravaged by the dangerous yet oddly compelling pirate.

    Parent

    Thank you... (none / 0) (#135)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:11:26 PM EST
    for the reading suggestions Cream City.  I just wanted to get some well thought out dialogue here since I respect the intelligence of most of the posters here.

    Parent
    The Yahbuts! (none / 0) (#144)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:25:43 PM EST
    They agree with the basic tenets of feminism, yes, but they aren't, can't possibly be actual feminists.  

    My pet right wing blogger careens from putting forth actual feminist views to slamming feminists as being nasty people who push misguided policies with detrimental effects.  Think Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck and you get the picture.   But she's not a feminist and definitely has nothing in common with them - she says.

    Parent

    Fabian, thanks -- I now will think (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:38:50 PM EST
    of them as the Yahbuts in my women's history course.

    Rather them, though, than the plants from the neocons to try to catch us in something to take us down.  That made it hell to head into classes, every day.  I was stalked and pilloried in the campus conservative student papers for stating historical fact.  Not fun when untenured.

    Not fun when tenured, either, for that matter -- and now I'm using search function on lectures to look for terms that will land me in trouble again.  

    Anyone know a synonym for "black hole"?  It's really key to the message I try to communicate in the very opening lecture of one of my courses.  But if I use it, I could be in for another long semester from hell.

    Teaching women's history, though, I certainly hope "sister" is okay -- since the male counterpart term for a sibling isn't now.  And to think that I thought an end to the neocon dominance would get us back to sanity.  It seems it could be worse under a Dem.

    Parent

    Heh. (none / 0) (#174)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:08:06 PM EST
    "singularity" is the term you are looking for.  A black hole is not, technically, a singularity, but it's probably good enough for non-scientists.

    The literal translation of "black hole" in Russian was a vulgar sexual term.  

    Parent

    Paid poorly, I'll venture! (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:54:10 PM EST
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Steve M on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:34:56 PM EST
    we could get into a whole discussion of first wave, second wave, third wave feminism and so forth, but the short answer is yes.  For example, there is a very wide gulf of opinion under the big tent of feminism as to the subject of pornography.

    What I am seeing some of in the blogosphere is people who are not, themselves, offended by the biker culture pointing at it and saying "shouldn't feminists be OUTRAGED!!! by this?"  It's actually kind of annoying.

    Parent

    Great point... (none / 0) (#100)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:39:17 PM EST
    Im however more interested in the debate, as in what exactly are the arguments for and against pornography in feminism.

    Parent
    To be brief (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Steve M on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:02:21 PM EST
    the "pro" argument generally has to do with freedom, empowerment, your right to do whatever you want with your life and body (just like men can), etc.

    the "anti" argument usually contends that porn and the sex trade in general aren't really consensual activities in large part, that it often comes down to young, vulnerable, perhaps drug-addicted women being exploited by opportunists, and that basically the industry as a whole is harmful to the women in it.

    Just as an analogy, I wouldn't ban boxing, but I've always felt a little bit creepy about a sport where we basically find young men in the ghetto who are in too bad a situation to say no, and we pay them to beat the crap out of each other.

    The "objectification" argument against porn and stuff is kind of dated, or at least I don't hear it so much any more.  The criticism was that, if you accept that these activities are consensual, then it basically boils down to women trying to limit what other women can do, for the supposed betterment of women.

    Parent

    Define "pornography". (none / 0) (#113)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:49:15 PM EST
    That's half the battle.

    More questions:
    Do certain industries deliberately deceive and exploit women?
    Can you separate the product from the process that creates it?

    Parent

    Good catch. (none / 0) (#116)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:51:16 PM EST
    Yes, thank you (none / 0) (#162)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:49:55 PM EST
    You said that so much better than I did.  It's taunting, not genuine interest.

    Parent
    well this is now starting to sound (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:52:33 PM EST
    like the same type of "feminism" that demanded the Hillary should have divorced Bill.

    I was under the impression that the feminist movement fought for the rights of individual women to make their own decisions about what they wanted to do.  This sounds more like the feminist movement just changed one set of gender roles from the 50's to another set of rules about what an individual woman can or cannot do.

    Parent

    Again, sweeping overgeneralizations (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:58:53 PM EST
    do not help.  There are many types of feminisms and feminists -- and the movement is a big tent, too.

    Ideologies are like that.  The worthwhile ones.

    Your last sentence sounds like the way that the term "Clinton supporters" is used too often here to tell us that we ought to fall into line, lockstep style.

    Feminists, especially, do not do that. :-)

    Parent

    I, for one, would love to see (none / 0) (#159)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:40:50 PM EST
    a Chippendale dancer running for president.  

    The ones I've seen dance a lot better than Obama did in that bit with Ellen de Generes.  

    Parent

    NYC permits it as well.... (none / 0) (#166)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:54:27 PM EST
    as they should...equal rights.

    If a guy can beat the heat by going topless, the gals should have the same right.

    I'll never understand our national hang-up about nudity...you would think we were born with clothes on or something.

    Parent

    Um, he was clearly joking (none / 0) (#97)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:37:11 PM EST
    He was not literally offering her up.

    Now, you may argue it was not a particularly tasteful one, but suggesting that it was a literal offer is a bit silly.

    Hmmm, I wonder how many of the netrootz boyz have been to Hooters?

    Parent

    Generational Feminism (none / 0) (#146)
    by daring grace on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:28:35 PM EST
    I find that women of my generation (older, post 40-50) often have stricter limits about what seems to us sexually exploitive for women to play into as (gasp) objectification than do younger feminists.

    Don't want to generalize, but that's been my general experience. A lot of 20-30 year old women seem to have found a middle ground or fusion of what their own playfulness, comfort levels and sexuality are as relates to public nudity or 'contests' like this. And they feel more empowered themselves to draw boundaries if someone else tries to make it weird/abusive.

    Parent

    I wouldn't actually argue the (none / 0) (#154)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:37:09 PM EST
    younger feminists' side on this, since I subscribe to the 40+ version.

    But either way, I do object to: 1) overly literal readings of someone's comments in order to rile up the faux outrage meter; and 2) disingenuous taunting , a la 'well, what do all you feminists say nooooww, huh?'  Which some of the initial comments engaged in.

    Excellent summary, btw.

    Parent

    Bill (none / 0) (#147)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:30:34 PM EST
    Clinton just fell in love with McCain.

    Parent
    Ich bin ein Biker (none / 0) (#161)
    by litigatormom on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:48:49 PM EST
    If only I were good at Photoshop.  The image of McCain on a Harley with Cindy sitting topless behind him is...wait, can we get The New Yorker to put that on the cover?

    Parent
    Full blown focus (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:14:50 PM EST
    on the white guy vote.  Yep.  

    Well, white guys are McCain's guys by far (none / 0) (#128)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:03:52 PM EST
    according to the polls.  And since African American women as well as men are so extremely in Obama's corner -- it's only white women who are more rationally distributing themselves across the political spectrum.  

    Not that pundits point that out, since we typical white women are supposed to be so racist.

    Parent

    As a middle-aged white guy (none / 0) (#142)
    by Steve M on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:19:44 PM EST
    I enjoy defying stereotypes by voting Democratic.  Actually, in my high school mock election, Reagan defeated Mondale with a Saddam-like 100% of the vote, so I've transcended in more ways than one.

    Sometimes I mention to my wife that now that we're married, we really are supposed to start voting Republican, demographically speaking.  I always get the same dirty look for saying it, too.

    Parent

    So, as a man who stands for gender equality and (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by LatinoDC on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:26:12 PM EST
    women rights, I find McCain's comment about her wife   competing in that topless comment pretty offensive.  Is this the guy that many women rights activists want to vote for because he "takes care of their kids in the military"?

    Correction: "That topless competition" (none / 0) (#16)
    by LatinoDC on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:30:34 PM EST
    I'd get a bigger kick (none / 0) (#43)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:57:05 PM EST
    if McCain encouraged his wife to march in the Columbus Pride Parade where women often are legally bare breasted.  

    Parent
    Interesting thought (none / 0) (#99)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:38:05 PM EST
    You should email the campaign this as a suggestion.

    Parent
    Too late. (none / 0) (#153)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:36:41 PM EST
    Pride was in June and I missed it this year.  

    I doubt McCain would do it.

    Just searched for Grand Marshals of Pride Parades to see what pols may have been selected.

    (2007) Police Chief William McManus will be the grand marshal of Sunday's Gay Pride SA Festival and Parade, the first cop to assume the role.

    Wow.  Go San Antonio!

    Parent
    Bummer. n/t (none / 0) (#157)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:39:06 PM EST
    Where is your evidence (none / 0) (#130)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:04:49 PM EST
    that so many women's rights activists have said that?  I find it doubtful.

    Parent
    I was thinking the same thing. (none / 0) (#158)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:40:05 PM EST
    I think he/she is conflating 'women' with 'women's rights activists'.

    Parent
    Ha. If only it were so (none / 0) (#160)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:44:56 PM EST
    but us d*mn women keep acting as suffragists said we would -- voting as stoopidly as men do.

    Parent
    Tommy Thompson always made Sturgis (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by Ben Masel on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:31:50 PM EST
    rode out with 50 buddies. Never hurt him with the fundies, and locked up the biker vote. And they all vote, registration a pre-req for their parties, unless you were an ineligible felon.

    Thew War on Fun is an electoral loser.

    Good point (none / 0) (#102)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:40:24 PM EST
    It's a pretty smart move, an automatic 50-state audience for a group of people for whom 'social networking' is extremely strong and long predated  internet teens texting each other.

    Parent
    The difference: Tommy RODE in, (none / 0) (#123)
    by Ben Masel on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:57:09 PM EST
    McCain flew.

    Parent
    Well, it's a pander, of course (none / 0) (#164)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:53:27 PM EST
    Although a plausible one, I think.

    Did McCain fly in in a helicopter?  Bc that's cooler than taking a limo in from the airport.

    Parent

    Wonder why McCain found it necessary (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:35:42 PM EST
    to diss the Germans, though.  Lots of German "stock" in the U.S.

    Harleys trump Teutons (none / 0) (#30)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:43:25 PM EST
    even in Milwaukee, home of both.

    Me, I hate the sound of revving Harleys, illegally tampered with to increase the auditory assault.

    Jeralyn and the rest of you don't have to deal with it every day, as we do here in the home of Harley -- and, btw, the just-opened Harley museum.  For some real fun, come for the 105th anniversary and The Boss at the end of August.  

    Or come here in two weeks and take in the Harley museum nearby the dedication of a statue to another biker.  The Bronze Fonz statue will be dedicated after the downtown parade planned for the cast of "Happy Days."  

    And after Potsie sings the national anthem at the Brewers game.  Now, that might be a good time to rev the Harleys to drown him out.

    Parent

    Not a good energy conservation plan, (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    that revving of Harley's.  

    Parent
    Can you see electric (none / 0) (#62)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:11:09 PM EST
    motorcycles catching on?  Virtually silent motorcycles?

    Parent
    That is a bicycle. (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:14:34 PM EST
    Nope. Making lots of noise appears to (none / 0) (#76)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:20:34 PM EST
    be a huge part of why people rides m/cs to begin with.

    Parent
    if you could strap a rocket on (none / 0) (#81)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:24:00 PM EST
    two wheels and control it, the piston engine motorbike would have some competition in that department.

    Parent
    Not possible to control (none / 0) (#129)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:03:55 PM EST
    such a beast on two wheels.  They make three wheeled recumbent bikes that could work though.  Steering would be tricky - you'd need something that would lean in order to keep it from rolling on a turn.

    Something like the Carver One(video link) which has three wheels, two rear and one front and leans.  And it looks like way too much fun to drive.  (If only I could afford one!)

    Parent

    They did (none / 0) (#148)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:32:11 PM EST
    check their tire pressure before revving.

    Parent
    Obama to talk to the Vespa Cinzano club? (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:13:45 PM EST


    I like his more (none / 0) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:45:55 PM EST
    for some reason I can totally see him on a Vespa.

    Parent
    Dang it! (none / 0) (#120)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:54:51 PM EST
    What's the electric thingy that GWB fell off of?  Two wheels, you stand up on it.  I can see McCain on that.  They're now being used by law enforcement on campuses and such.

    Parent
    segway (none / 0) (#131)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:05:46 PM EST
    funny I didnt remember either so I googled this
    "electric thingy that GWB fell off of"


    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#138)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:14:49 PM EST
    And that search worked?  wait...yup, the first result even.  Maybe google is smarter than I am!

    It's embarrassing that I couldn't remember because the inventor is from here.

    Parent

    I love the google! (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by trublueCO on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:55:06 PM EST
    Although I use it so much it probably clogs up the internet tubes in my neighborhood.

    Parent
    deux chevaeux (none / 0) (#121)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:55:42 PM EST
    classic citroen.  A bail of hay, two farm hands and a sheep.

    Parent
    sounds more like (none / 0) (#137)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:13:52 PM EST
    menage a toi  

    Parent
    Obama needs to get some of us BMW bikers (none / 0) (#1)
    by DandyTIger on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:05:11 PM EST
    together. I think you'd see a difference in support from the Harley bikers. Yep, even in the biker world there are latte bikers and beer bikers. :-)

    I'm a big fan of (5.00 / 0) (#6)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:08:24 PM EST
    Harleys. Love them. No better way to see the country than on the back of a Harley.

    Parent
    Do it on a bike (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:22:10 PM EST
    Pedaling across country is the most amazing experience.  

    Parent
    lose weight much. (none / 0) (#70)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:15:54 PM EST
    I might be riding the tour de tucson this year.  

    Parent
    Do it (none / 0) (#139)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:16:32 PM EST
    If you are a women (???) invest inthe Terry Women's Buttferfly saddle (if you haven't yet).  Ride with it for a while and bring it with you if you are going with a group that is supplying the bikes.

    I worked at a bike shop and consistently Terry saddles got the best reviews from women.  If you are not a women there are tons of options.

    Parent

    I love them too (none / 0) (#33)
    by standingup on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:46:31 PM EST
    I don't think I could handle riding on one in the mountains though.  I admire the people I see doing it but that would be too much for me.  

    Parent
    Wow i'm impressed (none / 0) (#38)
    by Jgarza on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:52:11 PM EST
    I'm scared to death to even be on a moped!

    Parent
    the belly of a Cesna is better. (none / 0) (#58)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:09:30 PM EST
    BMW (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by thentro on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:41:45 PM EST
    I always have liked the BMW cross-country riders. They are always prepared and always kind.

    Parent
    Dandy...Can't help thinking about the (none / 0) (#3)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:06:35 PM EST
    movie, Wild Hogs...

    Parent
    yep, that's about right for us, lol (5.00 / 0) (#5)
    by DandyTIger on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:08:09 PM EST
    I don't think we're really intimidating anyone. :-)

    Parent
    that movie was a bit underrated. (none / 0) (#56)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:08:58 PM EST
    and Marissa Tomei as always was beautiful.

    Parent
    I can't recall seeing any "bikers for (none / 0) (#2)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:05:58 PM EST
    obama" so far.  His supporters, from what I have seen, appear more the motor scooter type.  Wasn't it that big biker club, Rolling Thunder,(?) that came out in support of republicans last time around...And, there is nothing like the sound of many cycles being revved :)

    Who would the Dykes on Bikes (none / 0) (#11)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:19:04 PM EST
    support?

    Official Website.

    This page
    includes a video clip of DoB contingent at a Pride Parade.  

    Parent

    Fabian....I see Dykes on Bykes as (none / 0) (#200)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 04:35:12 PM EST
    being Hillary supporters :)

    Parent
    There's a motorcycle shop down the street (none / 0) (#112)
    by Valhalla on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:48:05 PM EST
    from me, and it's used as a meeting place for both the new and trendy middle-class white guys biker clubs and the more traditional hard-core Harley folks.

    The 'Dad-pants' group is a growing set.  Seems to be demographically a sort of new weekend-warriors club thing.

    Appropos of not much, I've really only had two direct interactions in my life with the serious Sturgis types, and both times the bikers were unfailingly helpful and polite.  (I know some groups have a lot of problematic history, Hell's Angels, etc etc but that wasn't my experience).

    Parent

    Sturgis (none / 0) (#4)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:07:46 PM EST
    I was in Sturgis at the rally by accident.  VW bus, two kids the full Berkeley catastrophe.  It was something seeing all those Harleys on the lonesome roads through the Badlands.  Biker couples at Rushmore picking souvenirs and getting their pictures taken.  

    Tell McCain, that lots of European dentists and doctors go to Sturgis to realize their Easy Rider fantasy.  

    Aging lawyers too (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:09:12 PM EST
    Lots of them there.

    Parent
    My aging, male lawyer colleagues (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:32:53 PM EST
    who love their bikes also vote Republican.  

    Parent
    Helmet laws. (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ben Masel on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:36:08 PM EST
    Political suicide.

    Parent
    My friends have finally stopped griping (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:38:24 PM EST
    about it, at least to me.  

    Parent
    I reckon a helmet is reasonable (none / 0) (#77)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:21:35 PM EST
    if the riders want to be insured at all.

    Parent
    No helmet (none / 0) (#85)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:27:28 PM EST
    should give you lower health insurance and higher life insurance rates.  Accidents tend to be more fatal without helmets thus saving a bundle on recovery and rehabilitation.

    Parent
    Whatever.... (none / 0) (#172)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:06:29 PM EST
    you wanna do about rates and coverage is fine...as long as people are free to decide for themselves.

    Parent
    Courting (none / 0) (#10)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:16:17 PM EST
    McCain courting the biker community is as strange as Obama courting the fundamentalists! Everyone is so busy courting the fringe they have totally forgotten the middle. I guess the next election we're all going to have to become bible thumping bikers. Then maybe they would address our concerns.

    No. McCain always plays (none / 0) (#12)
    by Fabian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:21:42 PM EST
    the Common Man card.  Always has.  McCain is more comfortable with smaller groups.  

    Parent
    I think you might be (none / 0) (#15)
    by standingup on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:29:09 PM EST
    very surprised with the people you would find in Sturgis as well as those who own and ride Harleys.  They are a very diverse group, not one that you could easily classify as fringe unless you consider doctors, attorneys and executives members of the fringe.  

    Parent
    Harley's 100th anniversary in my town (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:49:31 PM EST
    was quite the revelation for a lot of readers of the local papers -- as reporters kept interviewing biker freeks and finding out that they were talking to physicians, lawyers, professors, and the like.

    But few with whom I talked were liberals -- except about the silliness that went on here with the topless stuff.  After witnessing women flashing even cops in this conservative town, and the cops let it go, I was convinced that our entire local police force had gone on vacation and had been replaced by cops from California or something.

    It was quite a scene for several days. . . .

    Parent

    My ultra-geek brother... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:53:41 PM EST
    has been to at least one.

    Parent
    It's also an American bike. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:12:27 PM EST
    and the hell's Angels were often ex bomber crew members who bombed the germans as well.

    Mccain is enjoying himself at least.

    Parent

    Daytona Beach's Bike Week (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by kredwyn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:14:53 PM EST
    It's an amazing experience to see all of those people with their bikes. The antics are fascinating...it's noisy as all get out.

    But when the week is over, there's a parade and the bikers present the city with a HUGE check that goes to the city and various charities.

    Parent

    here in tucson (none / 0) (#74)
    by Salo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:20:04 PM EST
    there is a big bicycling community. hipsters, cute girls and beach bum types etc.  as far as motorbikes I assume there is a probably a nest of hells angels too. Seems like it's mainly men in their midthrities who have some extra cash to blow on weekend rides though.

    Parent
    extra cash (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:26:17 PM EST
    yeah
    the image of Harley riders as unemployed miscreants is almost funny.  
    priced a harley lately?  those are your doctors and lawyers.


    Parent
    I collided with Sturgis (none / 0) (#19)
    by Lil on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:31:50 PM EST
    in 1997 when I took my kids cross country. Never knew about them before that, but I found that a lot of my biases were confronted after that. I had a certain image of bikers before, which have completely changed. They were nice, and average folks with typically lives who liked to spend their vacations riding to SD every year. Good memory. I think this is a good place for McCain right now, among the regular people, so to speak.

    I think we were there (none / 0) (#24)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:35:03 PM EST
    the same year...!!

    Parent
    great trip (none / 0) (#31)
    by Lil on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:43:38 PM EST
    went as far as Ft. Collins, Co (Lived there briefly in '86). Would love to take my 7-yr old, but gas prices are nuts. It was overwhelming to visit Mt. Rushmore and Wall drug with hundreds and hundreds of bikers. Talked to a lot of folks and the locals were very happy to have them.  It was a bit loud though. Small world, Stellaaa.

    Parent
    and no camping spots (none / 0) (#34)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:47:25 PM EST
    my son-in -law has a job there (none / 0) (#88)
    by athyrio on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:28:03 PM EST
    backstage as a bodyguard for the acts this year..they live 20 miles north of Sturgis and my daughter is a nurse at the VA in Sturgis...I live about 2 1/2 hours from Sturgis in southeastern Montana. I agree that is a good place for McCain to be....

    Parent
    The usual Harley rider these days (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jim J on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:33:02 PM EST
    is a middle-aged white guy having a second, and much more expensive, childhood. Most of them I know don't even ride their bikes to meets, they tow them on trailers until they get there.

    Hm (none / 0) (#35)
    by Steve M on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:51:18 PM EST
    My mother-in-law is part of the motorcycle mama demographic.  But I'm pretty sure she supports Obama.

    So is my Aunt (none / 0) (#39)
    by CST on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:53:40 PM EST
    And she is definitely for Obama, now that Hillary is out.

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    Yuck. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 12:55:33 PM EST


    if I had not had to work (none / 0) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 01:11:25 PM EST
    I would have most likely been there.
    I might have even revved my engine.

    Quaint (none / 0) (#132)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:06:20 PM EST
    Posing/partying with them would help McCain's image, big time.

    Well with some voters anyway. OK not too many.

    But I still would like to see him holding on for dear life, wearing low riders and a tank top.

    Obama would only allow his ... (none / 0) (#168)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 02:57:23 PM EST
    wife in that contest if it led to a the passage of a bipartisan energy bill.

    ;)

    you say that (none / 0) (#185)
    by nolo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:43:47 PM EST
    Like it's a bad thing.  Obama putting the welfare of the country first, expecting his family to sacrifice for that goal, etc.  How is that so bad?  McCain, on the other hand, is ready to throw his old lady to a bunch of biker dudes for the sake of what?  Getting a few votes out of 'em?  Hardly what I'd call sacrificing for the good of the country.

    /snark off.

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    Good snark! (none / 0) (#190)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 03:59:41 PM EST
    I can actually hear someone saying such things with a straight face.

    Parent