Supporting the Democratic Ticket

The primaries are over. Sen. Barack Obama and Joe Biden are our nominees.

This is a historic day for the Democrats and for Denver. TalkLeft fully supports the Democratic ticket. I've resolved my conflicts and will both vote for as well as support Obama-Biden in 2008. A Republican-led Justice Department and a Supreme Court with another right-wing ideologue would be the worst possible outcome for me.

If you are unhappy with the ticket, I'm sorry. But, this is a blog, and it's my blog. TalkLeft will do its part to ensure victory in November. In fact, I encourage everyone to make a donation now to Obama-Biden 2008.

As to commenters here, see below:

The comments here fill up quickly with repetitive, tiring criticism we've heard a million times. No more, and especially not today.

Each of our posts can only accommodate 200 comments. So, for those of you who are remain unhappy with the ticket, please find another place to express your dissatisfaction and negativity. Those critical of the ticket will be limited to four comments in a 24 hour period.

Thanks to all for participating here during the primaries. I'm off to begin what promises to be a historic and memorable day. While I won't be around to moderate comments, we do have a moderator and the comment limit will be enforced, even if after the fact.

Update: I've already deleted several comments mis-stating what I wrote. Supporting the ticket does not mean we won't have criticism of it or the media. When they make a mis-step in our view, we'll say so. That's entirely different than what I'm referring to here: comments that in one way or another are nothing but "I can't vote for this ticket...." with a reason expressed dozens of times before.

This policy is for commenters, not the authors of the site who will continue to write whatever they want to.

< Four More? | Holding Our Democratic Party Accountable >
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    I don't know where I fit..... (5.00 / 13) (#1)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:21:52 AM EST
    I tepidly support the ticket but I don't think I support the Democratic party anymore. I don't want to constantly be censoring my opinions or feel like I am only a 4 posts a day participant so I guess I'm not going to be around much after today.

    Thank for the ride. Jeralyn, you have to do what you feel is right.

    And BTD, I love you!

    hear, hear (5.00 / 7) (#109)
    by daria g on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:13:28 PM EST
    This isn't my Democratic Party.  But wow, this place!  It's an oasis of civility in the blogosphere, true, and I value that.  But the downside is rules that AFAIK really aren't put in writing anywhere that is accessible (do new commenters go back and pick through every old TalkLeft thread to find all the mysterious rules?  doubtful).  And comments that break rules that are still not all that clear (it's very hard to draw the line between criticism and negativity) are now deleted.  And BTD frequently bans posters from his threads for violating rules that aren't written down anywhere either.

    Jeralyn, you yourself as I recall described Biden as a deal breaker for supporting the ticket, and BTD has been highly critical of Obama.  I get that you don't want repetitive, empty comments on the site, but didn't that fall under the definition of chattering that was already being enforced?  Aside from being disappointed in the way this new rule is phrased, I really think there's a basic usability and accessibility issue in that it's near-impossible for commenters on your site to find the actual rules for commenters on your site.


    When Signing Up to Talk Left (none / 0) (#159)
    by Desired User Name on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:41:10 PM EST
    maybe you all can send an additional email that states all the rules.

    I'm not sure if this is "wordpress" you are using but I think it is and I know there is a way to have an additional email (newsletter) sent to let participants know everything and all in one spot, in their email box.


    OR how about a button that says "email the rules" or something like that LOCATED by the "MAIL PASSWORD" button?

    just tossing out ideas...I actually didn't catch wind of the rules until after I made a gaffe, so, perhaps there is another way to insure we get hip to the program.



    "As to commenters here, see below:" (none / 0) (#217)
    by Desired User Name on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:14:44 PM EST
    I just reread this blog and Jeralyn I think due to the importance of this piece maybe the "read more" code could come later, because the words:

    "As to commenters here, see below:"

    sounds like you are referring to the Comments Left On This Blog by The People Commenting This Blog.

    Know what I mean? Maybe the entirety of this/your blog should be open without the "more" code being used.


    AND AGAIN, thank you for this space (!!!!!!).


    I am a liberal and I have liberal values. (5.00 / 11) (#121)
    by myiq2xu on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:20:33 PM EST
    That means I talk "left"

    To me, party is far less important than country or ideology.

    If the Democratic party doesn't reflect my values, I won't support it.

    Right now it doesn't, so I don't.


    Can't and won't clap harder for this farce ... (4.42 / 7) (#222)
    by Ellie on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:17:03 PM EST
    ... but props to you Jeralyn. You've got to be one of the most refreshingly honest and straightforwardly stand-up people in the blogosphere.

    Big love too to BTD, the "Third Tenor" and the other Alpha Moderators and commentators who have joined you in making this -- and keeping this -- a great site even through the fracturing mayhem that has been this campaign season.

    I read it for years when it was a baby site, though law was only an ancillary fascination to my number one "special" interest of global human rights.

    TMI, scroll past if boring: Although I'm in an artsy/media career now for purely dietetic reasons -- I like fabulous gourmet foods and exquisite bevs -- as a yoot I became a chronic social irritant working in NGOs, drinking rust-remover flavored coffee with labor mediators and contributing to my current professional guild.*

    I replaced the text of my previous post with this one, which isn't a GBCW. I'll just step back. I loved reading TL (and BTD from his Cheetoh days) way before, and still love reading it now. Out of respect for the new mandate while being true to my own Independent status, I'll still read the FP and open threads to keep up and toss in on non-Dem related stuff, but not clap along. (Obama, IMO, is so bad a choice he requires holding my nose with BOTH hands and if I have to clap at the same time ... well, you see my issue with that.)

    Good luck and see you probably later! :-)

    * That would be the Loyal Order of Sports Bookmakers, Rotten Poets and Rickshaw Ferriers. Our Motto: We shan't spread lest the metre is ON.


    Are we still allowed to (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:21:56 AM EST
    criticize the media???

    Seriously, just need to know the rules.

    see my update (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:48:57 AM EST
    Thank you, Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by DCDemocrat on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:07:28 PM EST
    It's time to get serious about winning this election.  The primaries are a thousand years ago, and November 4 is about four years of our national life.  

    Go, Obama!  Go, Biden!  We've got your back!


    Thank you (none / 0) (#74)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:56:35 AM EST
    I have no problem with what you said now.

    Thanks Jeralyn! (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by standingup on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:22:15 AM EST
    I appreciate the coverage and space you have provided us for this long.  I can't get enthused about this ticket yet but certainly respect your choice and request.

    Thanks, Jeralyn (5.00 / 11) (#4)
    by Athena on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:24:08 AM EST
    I commend you for creating a zone of civility during the heated primary season.  Refugees from the conforming blogs were welcome to post here and conduct a lively debate.  I haven't arrived at your conclusions regarding the ticket - but it's your blog, and your right to establish its parameters.

    Agreed. (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by jpete on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:28:44 AM EST
    A place for some civility has been so important.

    I am wondering what "supporting wholeheartedly" will mean.  I hope it won't mean that we can't criticize.  Critical voices can be very important for a candidate, so he (in this case) can change.

    For example, one might want to express a hope that we don't actually have a Greek temple tonight, as the media are describing it.  Perhaps that's a biased description, but it would be a shame if it were invited.


    Greek temple (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by TChris on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:59:00 AM EST
    is a Republican spin.  A couple of columns, intended to simulate the setting of a federal building, do not make a temple.

    It's more than a couple of columns (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by americanincanada on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:04:52 PM EST
    As I understand it, and I have seen the video, there are large double columns on either side that flank large video screens. In the middle is a curved row of either columns from which the nominee will appear.

    I can certainly see how this could be interpreted as hubris and playing into the republican theme.

    ETA: This is not criticism. it is simple discussing facts as I know them.


    then my eyes are spinning (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by AlSmith on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:12:00 PM EST

    Because I have seen the pictures and the side columns are curved.

    Kos says dont worry because the whole thing will be covered in flags. Sorry but I dont think they are covering this.


    And since those federal buildings (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by chrisvee on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:20:19 PM EST
    are neoclassical, perhaps the campaign might have anticipated this line of attack and taken steps to avoid it?

    It seems to me that the Obama campaign has a penchant for spectacle. I'd cite the convention, how the VP selection process was handled, and Obama's trip to Europe as my examples. I'm speculating that they feel that the Dems have lost the 'symbols/images' battle in prior years and this is their way of addressing it.

    But I think they might be mis-reading the mood of the public. After eight years of empty spectacle (mission accomplished, statues being pulled down, flowers and candy, etc.) I think the public mood has turned against it. And the Republicans are ahead of us yet again by noticing this and attacking us on it. The last thing we need is McCain running as the 'I'm a simple, down to earth guy that you can trust' candidate. I'll be interested to see how the Republican convention looks.


    In academic circles ... (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:56:56 PM EST
    there's a lot of discussion of "spectacle," especially among the post-modernist critics.  Some of the Obama camp may be taking these writings too seriously.  

    But the American public is a pragmatic lot.  And though they may be occasionally entertained by spectacle.  It's actions that stick with them.


    It is theater that sticks with the majority of voters, wish it weren't so, but it is

    Sorry! I read through to the end, finally. (none / 0) (#18)
    by jpete on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:32:14 AM EST
    4 posts a day for any criticism?  I don't mean to be nitpicking about it. But some criticism is so external to policy; is that going to count as the bad sort?

    Thank you, Jeralyn! (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:24:24 AM EST
    Now is the time for focus, focus, focus and more focus on the one objective - and action to achieve that objective - which must be met if we are to continue to have a chance to have a free country:  winning the Presidency for Barack Obama in the 2008 election.

    Said another way:  would you rather Joe Biden and Barack Obama in charge of the Department of Justice, or Joe Lieberman and David Addington?

    It's the question which answers itself.

    did you vote for lieberman in 2000? (none / 0) (#13)
    by sancho on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:30:41 AM EST
    I expect the vote was for Al Gore. (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:02:07 PM EST
    We still have a secret ballot in this country (5.00 / 0) (#100)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:07:39 PM EST
    and I, for one, know how to keep my secrets.

    Thanks for the clarification (5.00 / 14) (#6)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:25:00 AM EST
    I guess after a short return it is time to say goodbye again to this community. I do want to thank everyone here (specially Jeralyn and the moderators) for a great site. I do understand and respect their wishes.

    I wish I could say I was onboard with this ticket, but in all honesty I can't. If after watching Bill and Hillary Clinton I am still not convinced then I have to trust my instinct.

    No matter what I will always lurk and support this site.

    Hmm (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:26:42 AM EST
    I absolutely support the ticket, but I don't feel that it's beyond criticism.

    Your site, of course.

    I suspect constructive criticism is ok (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Lil on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:31:22 AM EST
    it is the Dem bashing that is worrisome. We are trying to get a Dem elected.

    I hope Jeralyn will clarify (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:32:47 AM EST
    AS do I (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by americanincanada on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:39:33 AM EST
    I do not support the ticket yet but I am open to it and there is certainly time.

    I also am in agreement that no ticket or politician should be above reproach.


    I thought she was pretty clear. (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Faust on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:48:17 AM EST
    You yourself have mentioned in the past that you thought some of the comments on here were getting pretty delusional and that the moderation needed to be a little heavier. That day has arrived apparently.

    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:50:03 AM EST
    I just wanted to make sure that I understood the new rule. At first read, it seemed more sweeping than I now believe it to be.

    see my update (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:49:56 AM EST
    Does that help?

    Yes, I think so (none / 0) (#60)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:50:49 AM EST

    Hey now (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:39:08 AM EST
    A comment limit is not a ban on criticism!

    I appreciate that skeptics have a place to be heard.  I have long had my complaints about Obama's messaging, just like BTD.  The problem is not people who refuse to get on board, the problem is people who insist on going on record with the exact same complaints in thread after thread, day after day.

    I get just as tired of reading 50 comments about how Obama is an empty suit as I do reading 50 Obot comments about how Bill was never called a racist or how Hillary said MI and FL wouldn't count.  If people believe he's an empty suit, hey, they're entitled to that opinion!  But no one's opinion is so indispensable that it needs to be put on the record in every single thread.

    I enjoy the fact that this is a moderated site, even though I don't agree with every moderation decision.  Even when Jeralyn deletes my witty comments because she misses the snark, she's still the tops in my book.


    Well, I assume that's what Jeralyn intends, (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:41:15 AM EST
    but the way I read what she writes here, if I make one critical comment, I am limited to 4 in a day.

    Maybe I shouldn't be making more than 4 comments a day anyway!


    I find it interesting (5.00 / 6) (#119)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:20:05 PM EST
    that many of the same people who loved Jeralyn when she deleted dozens of Hillary-bashing commets every day suddenly perceive comment moderation as a dark and sinister threat to free speech.

    People who believe that Internet arguments are won by whoever gets the last word are part of the problem, no matter what views they espouse.  Here's the thing, if someone still hasn't agreed with you by the 4th time you make your point, you probably should give up on persuading them.


    Read Jeralyn's update again (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by standingup on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:57:25 PM EST
    comments that in one way or another are nothing but "I can't vote for this ticket...." with a reason expressed dozens of times before.

    Make critical comments that are on topic, reasoned and not the repetitive laundry list of why you can't stand the Democratic party or Obama.  As unhappy as I am with the way things have gone with the Democratic nomination, I even find myself very tired of some of the same old complaints that I have read for the last several months.  



    Jeralyn is not underthinking (5.00 / 1) (#229)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:18:48 PM EST
    You are overthinking.

    The idea that if BTD makes 5 critical posts in one day, you will suddenly be deleted if you agree with the 5th post, is completely silly and doesn't show a whole lot of respect for Jeralyn's good judgment.

    All Jeralyn is saying is that the people who insist on posting nothing more than "Sorry, I still can't vote for him" 20 times a day need to chill out.


    I really doubt (5.00 / 6) (#133)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:26:00 PM EST
    that Jeralyn was thinking of you when she was referring to the limit.

    There are several people here who make earnest, respectful, and thoughtful criticisms of Obama.  You certainly have always fallen into that group.

    I believe Jeralyn refers to the people who criticize EVERYTHING Obama does simply to voice their displeasure with Obama.  There are posters here who find fault with him on every action he takes and, knowingly or not, take a McCain cheerleading posture.


    4 criticisms a day should be enough (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:41:11 AM EST
    and it doesn't apply to the media or to issues. It applies to the ticket and expressing your dissatisfaction with it and intent to sit out the election or to vote for another candidate.

    I'm not going to be a cheerleader.


    Thanks for the clarification (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:43:01 AM EST
    that's less restrictive that I originally understood.

    criticism (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by AlSmith on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:00:41 PM EST

    Frankly I think criticism will be vital.

    Kos applauds every blunder ("greatest rollout ever"). If the Greek Temple thing get toned down in time it wont be because of Kos becuase they think it just a great idea.

    I dont want to be a Kool aid drinker. Being in the excitement of a convention means you get contact obamcitis. Great, you have to correct for that. Everyone will love his speech tonight. Also great.

    But if there continue to be no specifics, if they continue with the messianic imagery and drift into the debates , the ticket is going to be killed.


    Does the limit include... (5.00 / 4) (#85)
    by p lukasiak on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:01:42 PM EST
    criticism of how the campaign is being run/acknowledgement that the GOP has done something effective?

    (e.g. can I saw something like "The decor choice for Invesco field is a bad one, because it plays into the "empty suit/rock star/hubris" themes that have been successfully promulgated by the GOP?" or "Voters would have had a easier time of getting a handle on who Obama is had he adopted a 'signature issue' that helped to define his candidacy in concrete term"?)

    btw, I'm glad to see that you've made a choice that is consistent with you view of the blog.  But i would suggest that you examine that decision to see to what extent being at the convention itself surrounded by friends who had already decided to support the ticket might have had.  For instance -- how well do you think that your resolve would hold in the middle of GOP convention if you were surrounded by friend who had a PUMA viewpoint?


    Okay, I understand. (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:09:13 PM EST
    Still I think I will lay low in the politics discussions because I don't like to parse my words. Guess that's why I'm not a politician.

    Are you sure? (none / 0) (#40)
    by kredwyn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:43:49 AM EST
    4 per thread or all over? (none / 0) (#44)
    by DFLer on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:46:14 AM EST
    4 all over (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:51:53 AM EST
    We post 15 or more threads a day. 4 comments per day saying you oppose the ticket would be 60.

    So 4 comments a day that express your dissatifaction with the candidates or the ticket. No limit on discussion of policy, issues, the media, etc.


    thanks for the clarification (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by DFLer on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:53:17 AM EST
    clarify: all over the site, I mean (none / 0) (#46)
    by DFLer on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:46:45 AM EST
    if you have a need (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by progrocks on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:51:10 AM EST
    to make 4 critical comments per thread, you need some real help

    progrocks (rock out) (5.00 / 0) (#238)
    by Desired User Name on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:22:44 PM EST
    to make 4 critical comments per thread, you need some real help

    All right, I fell off my chair ;)


    So is this place going to turn into (4.00 / 4) (#144)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:33:03 PM EST
    a forum for this kind of DK crap?

    If so, I'm happy to say thanks very much and bye.


    very observant (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:38:20 PM EST
    couldn't have said it better.

    With out readers they can comment on their own writings.


    my question was for Jeralyn re her requested rules (none / 0) (#63)
    by DFLer on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:51:58 AM EST
    stop misstating what I said (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:42:16 AM EST
    I did not say we won't have criticism.

    Hardly. (5.00 / 5) (#58)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:50:19 AM EST
    That would mean BTD was leaving.

    I already said my goodbyes in the last post. (5.00 / 9) (#8)
    by cawaltz on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:27:12 AM EST
    I could see the writing on the wall. I guess I'll see you after the cycle is over.

    I suppose (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by Eleanor A on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:48:46 AM EST
    We needed a new place to start discussing Hillary 2012 anyway.

    Which doesn't bother me in the slightest.  I understand and respect why certain of my friends feel that they have to support the Dems under any circumstances, most of the time; I simply don't agree.

    But I'll be around yammering about the Senate and Congressional candidates I'm going to go work for.  Lunsford (D-KY) is down in the polls, but he's not out.

    I think four a day is reasonable.  She's not telling anyone to leave, just not to say the same thing over and over given the limited bandwidth.  I think that's a good compromise.


    Thank you. (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:28:42 AM EST
    The comments here fill up quickly with repetitive, tiring criticism we've heard a million times. No more, and especially not today.

    I love and respect Hillary Clinton, She fought a good fight. But as far as I am concerned, we need a new direction and I always said I was willing to support either one.

    Bring on the contrast between the Democratic ticket and their policies and the GOP.  

    Thanks, Jeralyn (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Bourges on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:30:20 AM EST
    I, too, will support the ticket and work for a change in the Supreme Court but my heart will always be with the Hillary.

    Jeralyn (5.00 / 16) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:31:16 AM EST
    and BTD, thanks for the time and the blog. I may lurk but I'll probably have to leave now since I'm not excited about the ticket or optismistic about Nov. Since I live in GA, it will matter little whether Obama manages to get me on board or not.

    I expect he will begin (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:31:36 AM EST
    drawing the contrast between our choices. This has been his pet subject all the way back to his discussions on Lincoln 1860.

    Thanks for letting me be a part of this blog for (5.00 / 16) (#19)
    by Angel on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:32:18 AM EST
    such a long time.  I cannot support this ticket so I will be saying adios for now.  I respect everyone's decision to support whomever they choose.  Good luck and wishes for much happiness to all of you I chatted and argued with.  You are a wonderful group of intelligent, caring people.  

    That which is not forbidden (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by angie on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:34:27 AM EST
    is compulsory.

    Thanks for providing such a haven of civility during the primaries.
    wishing you the best always.

    Thanks Jeralyn (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by OpinionatedOldFart on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:36:18 AM EST
    I've been a huge fan of your for many years from you cable TV appearances and have read you blog since the early days.  As an Obama supporter for 18 months, your thoughts have always challenged my thinking and I appreciate your honest thoughtful approach.  Especially on the issues related to our dysfunctional criminal justice system.  Even when I don't agree with you, you are always a voice of reason.

    Well, (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by sas on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:40:34 AM EST
    It's your blog.  If you wish to support the ticket so be it.  I respect your choice.

     I guess I won't be on this blog anymore.  Thanks for the past opportunities.  There's nothing here for me now, so I'm off to oother blogs.

    Oh - not one nickel to these guys....

    Thanks again, good luck to you.

    It was great while it lasted. (5.00 / 6) (#30)
    by Fabian on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:40:41 AM EST
    I plan on sinking into political apathy and checking in on BTD's poll posts.

    I'll still support progressive principles wherever I find them.  We Can Solve It can use my free time and spare money.  Headed by the best kind of politician - a "recovering politician".

    Thanks Jeralyn.  Enjoy the election.

    not on board, not against (5.00 / 17) (#34)
    by nycvoter on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:41:29 AM EST
    if we get on board again it will be validation that women don't matter, after years of being the backbone of the party they thought they could push out a MORE qualified women for a meagerly qualified man and we'd all go along.  If Obama was half as qualfied as Hillary I would probably be on board, but I am forever changed by this and cannot get on board.

    I expected abuse from Republicans or independents against Hillary but not from Democrats.  Please don't tell me what's at stake, I think about it every day and am terribly torn

    this comment is looking to the past (4.25 / 4) (#68)
    by progrocks on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:53:58 AM EST
    Yes, it may suck that Clinton was more qualified and lost to someone less qualified in the primary.  What does that have to do with the general election though?

    That is the point, look forward, compare the options you have, not the one that you wish you had.


    I am looking forward to continued (5.00 / 13) (#116)
    by nycvoter on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:17:32 PM EST
    lack of respect for women. Continued failed lip service to equality.  We do not promote or support enough women in public office.  I'm not talking affirmative action but when we had one more qualified.  This was a travesty of enourmous proportions and I cannot support it.  I am actively supporting Tracey Brooks for Congress in a NY primary.  I will work for a veto proof senate.  I will not actively support candidates or a party that participated in what happened.

    John McCain and the republican party (3.00 / 5) (#129)
    by progrocks on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:24:33 PM EST
    All about women's rights and respect!!!!!

    I have never read anything that told of Obama calling his wife a c--t, like McCain has.

    You have an interesting way to think about respect for women


    You are the kind of supporter who loses votes for (5.00 / 8) (#135)
    by nycvoter on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:27:43 PM EST
    the team because you don't want to listen and you want to badger people

    I never said that Republicans or McCain represented anything I value, they don't and they will not get my vote.

    But to HELP and reinforce a Democractic party that has left me behind, is not in my interest.

    I will vote down ticket


    not reinforcing a party that has left you behind (none / 0) (#232)
    by progrocks on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:19:30 PM EST
    it is about electing the option that will best reflect the policies that will be best for the country the next 4 years.  if you really think obama is not the best option in that regard, you will not want to be around this place much, cause that is what you will see.

    sorry your feelings were hurt by, well, whoever, but obama is by far the best of the 2 options that exist for being elected president as far as womens rights are concerned, and it is not even close. If you have to vote against your interest, i guess i do not understand how you think


    Democratic Party (5.00 / 12) (#37)
    by josephine55 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:43:03 AM EST
    First time posting.  I have been a reader of your site for many months, back to the John Edwards day.  I have enjoyed it, but I am saying goodbye today. I can no longer be a part of the Democratic Party, I've been part of my local party and did fund raising for John Kerry.  I can never support Obama.  The flip on the FISA really did it for me.  I could go on all day about my disappointments but I won't bore you with the details.  Sorry...I think it's country before party.

    okay, here's a perfect example... (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by p lukasiak on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:22:51 PM EST
    ...of why this limit is needed.  

    We don't need to know WHY you aren't supporting Obama.  It has nothing to do with the issue under discussion.  But you insisted upon doing so, and you got a response that had nothing to do with the topic, and that got a response....

    ....and none of it is relevant.


    This is just the sort of silliness (3.66 / 6) (#78)
    by fuzzyone on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:58:46 AM EST
    that makes a limit necessary.  I agree on substance re Obama's FISA vote, but do you think McCain will be better on those, or any, issues?  How does having him as president put the country first?

    This kind of silliness (4.72 / 11) (#90)
    by Emma on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:02:31 PM EST
    makes me wish for a 4 comment limit on substanceless cheerleading and repetitive threatening.

    Where is the "threat" (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by TChris on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:16:04 PM EST
    in fuzzyone's comment?

    Vote for Obama!!! (or else) (3.62 / 8) (#134)
    by Emma on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:26:06 PM EST
    If don't it's McCain and McCain is worse!!

    Please.  It's the same thing that happens here all the time.  "YOU will be responsible for the end times if YOU do not GET ON BOARD and VOTE OBAMA!!!!"  Different forms.  Different language, some politer, some more oblique.  Same threat, whether it's coded yellow, orange, or bright red.


    I don't think it is (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by TChris on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:32:09 PM EST
    a "threat" to point out that McCain will win if voters don't vote for Obama. The fact that the implications of a McCain presidency are frightening is not a threat, it is a reality.

    I will agree to disagree (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Emma on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:38:18 PM EST
    I think you are giving a very generous interpretation.  But whatev.  It's expected and par for the course.

    but doesn't it fall under (5.00 / 10) (#160)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:41:19 PM EST
    the category of repetitive comment without adding anything new to the discussion?

    How is repeating McCain is worse over and over any different than repeating empty suit over and over?


    It was acutally a quesiton, not a threat, (4.00 / 3) (#149)
    by fuzzyone on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:37:01 PM EST
    and it was not answered, I assume because there is no answer.  

    The implication that those who are planning on voting for Obama somehow put party before country strikes me as the only offensive thing in this string.  I think both the party and the country are much better off with Obama as president than McCain.  

    That does not mean I think Obama is perfect anymore then Jeralyn or BTD do.  But we live in the real world where we are often faced with imperfect choices.  In that world the decision whether or not to vote for Obama strikes me as an easy one for anyone who actually supports either progressive ideals or the platform of the Democratic Party.


    And the implication that a lot of us (5.00 / 11) (#192)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    do not understand, far better than the respondent, that the popular vote does not elect the President.

    Those in solid red or solid blue states who do not vote the top of the ticket will not be affecting the election.  If they were, the nominee would be giving them more attention.  But his campaign manager himself has stated that they will not advertise in more than two-thirds of the states and territories.

    Let's not blame the voters whose votes already have been discounted as meaningless by the retreat from the 50-state strategy, too.  Florida and Michigan voters were just the harbingers.


    There is an answer... (4.20 / 5) (#246)
    by jeffhas on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:31:50 PM EST
    Voting for McCain or not voting at all will make it very clear to the DNC that they propped up an unworthy candidate, and the likes of Dean, Pelosi, Brazille et al will be swept away with the loss.

    A Democratic Congress will keep McCain reigned in - and face it - he's not beloved by his own party base, so maybe he really isn't ultra conservative... maybe he really has reached across the aisle before and will again... his prior examples bode better than Obama's prior examples (none).

    I guess it really matters what kind of Country OR Party you are looking for - and we all have the right to support whomever we want - for whatever silly reasons we've decided.

    Of course, another answer is to vote third party.

    See.. answers everywhere...  


    Wow. (5.00 / 8) (#38)
    by jeniferea on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:43:15 AM EST
    I'm stunned.

    Jeralyn, I have had tremendous respect for you, but this is beyond the pale.

    If loyal Dems don't fight for the soul of our party which we have worked for for decades, dreamed of for our families, children and those who have fallen through the cracks of our society, who will?

    This is a sad, sad day for TalkLeft.

    She's not telling people to leave (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Eleanor A on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:50:16 AM EST
    It's just a comment limit.  She didn't say how long your comment could be, or what thread you could post it in.

    Comment limits... (5.00 / 6) (#186)
    by jeniferea on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:58:37 PM EST
    I have no problem with comment limits that are based on comment quality, repetitiveness, civility, bullying, etc. , but that's not what this is.

    This is specifically a limit on criticism.  


    Well, I kept the bookmark, (5.00 / 8) (#39)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:43:32 AM EST
    but it is off the bookmark toolbar folder now.  Will remind me TL is not a home for now.  I enjoyed it--but I can't support the party as it is now.


    Jeralyn, I have loved blogging here (5.00 / 12) (#41)
    by zfran on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:43:50 AM EST
    and thank you for the opportunity and leeway. I cannot vote for this ticket and still I believe the supreme court will survive with a dem congress (besides, if they want to vote, for instance, roe v wade, they had a chance to overturn it with the present court). As for the justice dept. under perhaps a repub. rule, then, again, a dem congress who will actually act and do their job will help. Since 2006 the justice dept. has remained in tact, non-investigated and rampant. Probably because so many dems were either complacent, or, probably, just as guilty. Whether it's Sen. McCain or Sen. Obama, we will still be spied upon without eyes to watch and justice to oversee. Sorry. I believe I would rather see a split government (as I believe the framers wanted). I hope you won't mind if I monitor the site. If find this a very said day for me and for my country. Thank you again.

    should say: I find this a very sad day (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by zfran on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:44:54 AM EST
    for me and my country!

    three to go for you (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:46:24 AM EST

    Thanks Jeralyn for your (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by zfran on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:04:56 PM EST
    clarification. Capt Howdy, thank you for keeping count. Can you also sing your ABC's?

    BTD 2008 (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by Desired User Name on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:48:45 AM EST
    Howdy Jeralyn, I respect your passion.

    Sadly for the Democratic party I am much fonder of BTD than I am of Obama. BTD has earned my respect and Obama hasn't. But BTD is not running
    for POTUS.

    I'd be a bit saddened to have to bale on this forum...I mean if I have read this blog correctly?

    That we are no longer allowed to voice our opinions about this election process unless we get in lock step behind the ticket that's been forced upon us.

    Thing I enjoy about this blog site is that not only are the people calm&collected, intelligent, well informed, witty, charming and kind even when they're angry or sad as hell! I also love that this is a relatively  TROLL FREE ZONE.

    We the people have a lot to get off our chest and it feels like HERE has been a good zone for it and I've even noticed some folks who say they'd never vote Obama wind up days down the road reconsidering that position. And I think that might be a good reason to allow the OPEN discussion to continue.... Warts & All...

    you should be able to make your point (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:55:26 AM EST
    in 4 comments a day. I'm not banning criticism.

    As a verbose person (none / 0) (#117)
    by Desired User Name on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:19:01 PM EST
    and I share this trait with Senator Biden :}}

    4 comments a day would be like telling an nicotene addict that they can only smoke one cigarette! :-)

    I've noticed that it's been the discourse back and forth between your participants here that has wound up altering people's opinions. Thus...that means 4 comments a day would severely limit the opportunity for us lost souls to dig deeper and step into one another's shoes.

    I do not mean to be surly for I am much more saddened than I am surly. I am one of the people who has read this forum for months on end before ever signing up to contribute. I love the blog topics and what you and BTD and T have to say, but it's also a great comfort and game changer for me to read the masses who gather here under the Big Tent.

    To be honest (and this is shameful) I used to be a huge bastard troll on youtube, spending hours combatting the Obama Maniacs. That was the most fruitless waste of time ever...And while acting a full-on miscreant over there I always READ this blog and guess what? It softened me and made me a more respectable cyberCrat. I'm serious!!

    I've also noticed that when there is an open forum here, even when it's about SANDWICHES and COLD CUTS? haha, well I've noticed that even having "that", no matter how absurdly silly it was, well that thread injected goodwill and a lightheartedness that no matter how unscientific this sounds, may have changed opinion.

    Uh Oh, please no one spank me for that comment because I stand by it and am serious.

    It takes a great deal of laughter and fun to get people to let go of their anger. I do not suggest or expect a constant open thread for us to get goofy in, no, no, no, I'm just saying that ANY PLACE and ANYTHING to help us Die Hard Hillary supporters see "your side" of the matter...

    It's  good here and I just hope you realize HOW GOOD it is even when numerous peeps continue to grumble and gruff and HARUMPH around like the sky has fallen.

    4 comments feels a lil'harsh, but if that is your decision, all right, I am in "agreeance" :}


    No. Read it again. (none / 0) (#95)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:06:04 PM EST
    'We' don't have to bail...just exercise restraint.

    Looks like I get to stay... (5.00 / 10) (#53)
    by jes on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:48:59 AM EST
    the quota is about 4 more than I generally make in a day!

    I've enjoyed lurking the past few months after deciding to not really participate.

    I love Jeralyn and BTD but it was the Clinton Democrats that really kept me coming back. I'll miss you people even though you don't know me from Jack.

    Bye everyone (5.00 / 10) (#54)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:49:01 AM EST
    I've enjoyed the site and all of you.  I hope to see you around the net.

    My email address is in my account info section if you ever want to reach me.

    All the best


    Hey Teresa (5.00 / 5) (#147)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:35:27 PM EST
    I've really enjoyed your posts, and am going to email you. What about the idea of some us like-minded women (and men if they're out there) getting a different forum together to move ahead on real progressive principles? If anyone's interested, we should find a way to exchange emails.

    Oh, and I adore BTD. Too bad there's only 1 of him.


    Interested. (5.00 / 6) (#153)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:38:56 PM EST
    Oh me too, most definitely.... (5.00 / 7) (#163)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:45:02 PM EST
    I'd like that so much. In fact, I think I need it.

    Bye from me, too (5.00 / 5) (#231)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:19:12 PM EST
    I'll email you, Theresa, because I do think we all need to find a new home, even if we have to create it ourselves.

    Posting the link again (none / 0) (#244)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:28:14 PM EST
    Progressive Democrats for Change

    Join the group and leave your info.


    I think confluence will let you post (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:48:42 PM EST
    your addresses over there...

    I'll post the google group (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:54:12 PM EST
    there, too.

    madamab's would be a good place too! (3.66 / 3) (#211)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:11:09 PM EST
    women networking (5.00 / 5) (#187)
    by noholib on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:59:21 PM EST
    The vote in November is not the issue for me.  I cannot vote Republican and I still support the Democratic agenda (however watered down and weakened it is) rather than the Republican one.

    But as some of you are saying, what I want to figure out now: how to work effectively politically for women's issues, and how to combat sexism and misogyny in our public life.  I want to know which women's organizations are worth supporting and donating to, and which sources of information are worth paying attention to.  So much has been turned upside down in this campaign that I think the only organization I still trust to work I believe in is the ACLU. I also want to support Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton in whatever role she chooses.  I am convinced that she still has a significant and remarkable contribution to make to public life, somehow, some way.  Seriously, I am hungry for information and networking.  Thanks to everyone for every thoughtful and humorous comment these past several months!


    Count me in N/T (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:03:49 PM EST
    Interested as well (5.00 / 3) (#205)
    by ChrisM on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:07:48 PM EST
    Please use one of your 4 comments to let us know where we can "meet".

    Otherwise, Corrente is a very open place.


    Ditto. I'll be watching for all of you (5.00 / 5) (#207)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:09:05 PM EST
    somewhere else, then.  I'll have less time in coming weeks and months (school starts:-), but I am no less committed to saving this country from the likes of what we have seen from both parties and nominees.

    Interested (none / 0) (#212)
    by sj on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:11:24 PM EST

    madamab.wordpress.com....lets try there (5.00 / 2) (#234)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:21:26 PM EST
    madamab.wordpress.com....lets try there (5.00 / 2) (#240)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:25:22 PM EST
    I have appreciated having a place where (5.00 / 17) (#59)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:50:29 AM EST
    substantive discussions could take place without degenerating into personal attacks; I think it has allowed us to see where and how we want to shape the agenda, where the weaknesses are and how to shore them up.

    Barack Obama and Joe Biden now represent something that is bigger than they are, but they are the ones who will carry the party forward.  They are the ones who have to get elected, so their message and their methods are crucial elements of reaching that goal.  I am hard-pressed to understand how we will hold their feet to the fire  - how you will advocate for those issues and policies that are important to you - without "criticism."  

    I have spent enough time on blogs that were little more than echo chambers, where cheerleading was the order of the day, and I left because it was pointless; I can talk to myself if all I want to hear is the same point of view.

    This is an imperfect ticket and an imperfect party; they should never be exempt from criticism, and I shudder to think that we would want to emulate the insular and closed-loop atmosphere of the GOP that brooked no criticism and demanded only loyalty in the Bush Administration; that just makes me feel ill, because that is not emblematic to me of how a free and fair society operates.

    I've been clear that I do not intend to vote for this ticket, and I've been clear why.  This is your blog, but it's still my party, and my country, so I will -with thanks for what I've had here up to this point - exit, perhaps to lurk, and hope that nothing but cheering for this ticket works out the way you want it to.

    I'll be sad to see you go, Anne (5.00 / 11) (#108)
    by ccpup on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:12:59 PM EST
    but I, too, no longer feel welcome to Post here if I have to temper my thoughts with the reality of, perhaps, being limited to only 4 posts a day.

    I guess I could fix that by writing weak love notes to Obama-Biden and offer that as a Post, but dishonesty and the bastardization of my principles has never been my cup of tea.

    When limits are introduced, Free Speech turns into just another pretty, worthless, quaint phrase.  I would think those with legal backgrounds would understand the dichotomy of that.  "Feel free to comment, but understand you'll be restricted or deleted if you don't support the ticket" feels a bit ... off to me.

    I appreciate Jeralyn and do my best to understand what I imagine must be herculean efforts she -- and the other Moderators -- go through to protect what they believe to be the integrity of the site.  

    But if one is always having to pause before they click "Post" and wonder 'is that going to count as a criticism and, therefore, I only have two, no, wait, only one chance left to post the rest of this day?', then it's hardly worth the bother, you know?


    More fun than writing weak love letters (none / 0) (#220)
    by Grace on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:15:49 PM EST
    is writing really robust love letters that you don't really mean.  ;-)

    For some reason, I've always gotten quite a kick out of doing that.  


    I do hope folks do not leave (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by befuddledvoter on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:52:24 AM EST
    for the rest of the campaign. Like so many here, I was and am a stuanch Hillary (and Bill) supporter.  Talked with 90-year old mother and sister over breakfast.  We all feel the same.  We now back the Democratic ticket all the way. I see no other choice.  When Hillary beseeched her supporters, "Was this all just for me?,"  I suddenly got it.  It was not. It was so much bigger than that. It was about being a real Democrat. It was being rid of the last 8 years; it was about that cancer ridden mother and her two adopted children without medical coverage; it was about the single mother whose only income was cut in half due to work change; it was about all the kids with aspirations of attending college with very little financial aid available; it was about young and older adults trying to manage student loan payments while doing public service jobs. It was about so much more than just who we liked.  

    I will never feel the same about Obama as I did about Hillary. She was a once in a lifetime candidate.  

    My real hope is that there will be enough people of experience and power to steer and support Obama in the real Democratic tradition.      

    Now onto some constructive criticism:

    I hear that Obama will appear on the podium tonight via machine from above or below.  Does anyone else thinks this wreaks of "deus ex machina."  Yikes, I do and expect this to be fodder fo Republican jokes.  I so wish there were fewer overwhelming crowds. Those people are already on board.  The scene does not play well with the uncommitted.  Seems coercive.  More substance is needed and less theatrics.  IMHO

    the way i heard it (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:24:29 PM EST
    Obama will "walk out" out like a normal person.  But, the podium he will use to speak from  will "rise" mechanically from the floor.

    See, I am perfectly capable of writing a comment that doesn't bash Obama.


    What I heard... (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by p lukasiak on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:38:00 PM EST
    ...was that Obama has spent the last three days getting intensive tutoring from Criss Angel.  He wasn't gonna ascend on a platform, he was just gonna ascend! ;)

    [oops!  that's one!] ;)


    well you should know (5.00 / 0) (#168)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:47:02 PM EST
    the humor was appreciated before it gets deleted.  LOL

    Good-bye (5.00 / 11) (#67)
    by RonK Seattle on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:53:41 AM EST
    Turn out the lights,
    The (Democratic) Party's over ...

    "The Party's Over"... (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:24:59 PM EST
    from one of my favorite musicals ever...The Bells Are Ringing:

    The Party's Over, it's time to call it a day.

    They've burst your pretty balloon and taken the moon away.

    It's time to wind up the masquerade.

    Just make your mind up the piper must be paid.

    The Party's Over.The candles ficker and dim.

    You danced and dreamed through the night,

    it seemed to be right just being with him.

    Now you must wake up, all dreams must end.

    Take off your make up, The Party's Over.

    It's all over, my friend.


    Thanks for providing a safe haven (5.00 / 9) (#69)
    by stxabuela on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:54:57 AM EST
    for all of us who just couldn't stomach what was happening to the Democratic Party we thought we knew and loved.  I will respectfully depart (for now,) but I've truly enjoyed the blog.  

    Hope I'm not too ot, but the Republican Convention may not even be on anyone's radar, if the forecasters are correct about Gustav.    

    You (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by JThomas on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:55:07 AM EST
    have nailed it ,Jeralyn. The nominee has been selected. All those regulatory agencies that bush packed with industry insiders will stay intact if McCain wins. We need a huge house-cleaning in those agencies as well as the Justice Dept. Monica Goodling would be promoted in an McCain admin.

    This choice is stark. McCain and his AEI foreign policies advisors will out neo-con cheney and co.
    They want Iran on a platter. McCain said it so well...''there will be more wars'' under his rule.
    My son and his mates from the 10th Mountain Division in Baghdad right now will be sittiing ducks among millions of angry shia when McCain bombs Iran. This is not the time for gambling with 4 more years of Bush/Cheney/McCain governance. Thanks for supporting the progressive path.

    Don't forget the agencies he packed (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:15:11 PM EST
    with people that were hostile to the intent of the agency and social services he filled with hard Liberty University religious people that had no credentials but a hard core agenda.

    if one looks at (5.00 / 5) (#132)
    by ccpup on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:25:33 PM EST
    who Obama has as his surrogates constantly and consistently speaking for him and his campaign (Clyburn, Jesse Jackson Jr., Claire McCaskill to name a few), one wouldn't be so sure that he wouldn't make similar, disastrous decisions in the staffing of his Cabinet or in the various Departments.

    We just don't know.  

    We ASSUME and HOPE they would be better than the alternative, but, in light of his unwillingness to reign in those who still insist with their insensitive, boneheaded statements on continuing the division in the Party, we really don't know.

    No one knows.


    Since none of us (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:33:22 PM EST
    can see the future we of course cannot know for certain what he will do.

    But you could say the exact same thing about ANY Democratic nominee if wish to be cynical.  


    Actually, I don't believe one could or would say (5.00 / 2) (#233)
    by jawbone on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:21:24 PM EST
    that about most possible Dem noms. I would not have said it about Jesse Jackson Sr. or Bill Clinton or Al Gore or John Kerry or John Edwards or Chris Dodd or Dennis Kucinich or...well, most Dems who have been around, voted the way I wanted most of the time, against what I wanted some of the time.  But people with proven histories of how they act and vote.

    It is not a criticism to say Obama is a relative newcomer and a relative unknown. It is what it is. I am concerned about some of the people he has as close advisers--especially about healthcare. But that is something I have to factor in to my enthusiasm level. We will see what the future brings....


    Yes, but (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:28:20 PM EST
    If they are political appointees, then we can't say much -- and I assume the Dems will appoint their own cronies if elected, though I usually like our cronies better than theirs, so that will be an improvement. But if you are talking about non-political appointees, you realize that electing a Dem won't change this, right? My understanding is you can't fire those people becuase of civil service protections. This is a problem that is going to linger for a long time.

    I am talking (5.00 / 3) (#171)
    by JThomas on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:47:49 PM EST
    about appointed heads of agencies like the EPA. Bush put oil company execs in charge of an agency created to protect the  environment.

    I was reading in the paper today a quote from nobel laureate economist James Heckman who was asked for input into obama's education policy.He told the NYTimes ''I have never worked with a campaign that was more interested in what the research shows''..adding that Obama likes advisors whose advice is based on empircal evidence. As Boston College political scientist said ''Idealogues don't need empirical evidence,or want it,because they know what they want to do already.''

    This is my basis for the belief that Obama will appoint true experts in these posts, not political hacks for industry like Bush.


    Very interesting comment (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:00:54 PM EST
    I am a huge fan of empirical evidence, myself.

    Cronies are one thing (none / 0) (#146)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:34:25 PM EST
    Cronies are part of Washington.

    Appointing people with the sole desire of destroying the agency is another thing entirely.  


    It's very easy to stay within the (5.00 / 6) (#77)
    by waldenpond on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:57:43 AM EST
    boundaries.... DO NOT LEAVE!!!!!!

    It is so easy..... Just ignore the candidates themselves.  Pretend they don't exist.  Are you kidding me that there is nothing you can find to criticize besides the candidates themselves?  Politics are a friggin' circus.  This stuff is mockalicious.

    Focus on the campaigns not the candidates, how their strategies are working, is an ad effective, who are they targeting, the moronic media coverage... the people surrounding the campaigns are always good for a severe mocking.

    Polls!  I need more Polls!

    The problem with your suggestion (5.00 / 12) (#97)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:06:37 PM EST
    is that eventually, criticism of policy or tactics comes down to criticism of who proposed it or who said it.

    If, tonight at Invesco, Obama outlines proposals and goals and policies that someone disagrees with, isn't criticsm of that proposal, something the ticket is running on - criticism of the ticket?

    I guess I already feel that the Democratic Party under its current leadership - meaning the DNC - wants me to shut up, get over it, get on board and keep my criticism to myself, and I am sorry to see - or to feel - that that is now working its way down the chain.


    Anne, I am going to stick around (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by zfran on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:45:23 PM EST
    here in some fashion. You and I and others here are so in agreement about so many things. I would miss having you all to go to each day to help me through this almost impossible, extremely sad and disappointing time. I will understand if you go, but it being your birthday and all, please stay around, at least for the coffee and...

    I think that if you focus... (5.00 / 3) (#162)
    by p lukasiak on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:44:34 PM EST
    ...if you focus on the issue, it will be okay.

    I didn't like Obama's proposal to capture and torture dolphins.

    is okay.

    I didn't like Obama's proposal to capture and torture dolphins.  Its just a flip-flop.  Like his FISA vote.  The DNC totally sucks too, and that's why I can't vote for him!

    is not


    You crack me up. (5.00 / 0) (#196)
    by DJ on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:04:02 PM EST
     I have no idea why but that is the funniest ever.

    Character is a legitimate issue (5.00 / 0) (#226)
    by waldenpond on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:17:47 PM EST
    Character/Image is a legitimate issue for some (me).  If it ok to question how McCain is perceived by the public and if an attack might be reflected in the polls, it should be ok to discuss the same issues with respect to Obama.

    Not ok: McCain is an @sshole.
    OK: McCain was rude to refer to his wife in such a derogatory way.

    Not ok: Obama is an arrogant jerk. (and yes, I will be deleting my own comment as I find it inappropriate to try and couch language to insert insults)
    OK: 'I wish someone would get him to hold his fracking chin down' (as I wrote many moons ago)

    Character and image and the perception thereof, will have an effect on voters and polls.

    Civility is the key.  Humor is a must.

    Polls!  I need more Polls!


    For me, the problem is (5.00 / 8) (#219)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:15:16 PM EST
    what it will turn into here in the absence of the non-cheerleaders - another DK-like, vapid cheerleading place with lots of coathanger threats, mockery of women's concerns, and other empty stuff.

    It's not my blog, though, so I'm cool with finding substantive critique elsewhere. There's a lot of it around.


    Precisely why I intend to stick around (none / 0) (#96)
    by aquarian on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:06:34 PM EST
    People here are funny and insightful.  There will always be plenty of mockworthy moments.  And we need to call out the stoopid talking heads.

    I support your rules (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:02:11 PM EST
    even though I don't support the ticket. I will try to behave myself and comment on issues in a constructive fashion. It's nice for everyone to have a place just to vent, but I'm done venting and am ready to start working again for the issues that I care about, even if I can't bring myself to vote this year. Even if the Democrats win the White House, we should all continue to support our favorite causes.

    Jeralyn, BTD, TChris -- you are all awesome, and I thank you for your hospitality.

    Say it aint so (5.00 / 5) (#88)
    by Redshoes on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:02:14 PM EST
    that's for the folks commenting (not JM).  She's not demanding the willing suspension of disbelief only that the kevetching (sp?) about the Democratic ticket be limited to 4 comments per day.  Stay around I like you guys.  Don't go.  Please, please stay.

    PS as always thanks to the good folks at TL and Jeralyn (I don't always agree but I always admire).

    yes, it's the constant (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:07:18 PM EST
    kvetching I'm trying to weed out.

    Then your policy should be (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:14:04 PM EST
    "Don't be a noodge!"

    IMO (5.00 / 12) (#91)
    by Thankful4women on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:03:28 PM EST
    I am black and strongly support Obama. But I do not think either he or the dems should be beyond criticism, even at this critical time. ESPECIALLY at this critical moment! That is what republicans do, not dems. That is what MSNBC and Huffpost do, not Talkleft! During the primaries I quietly read many of the posts from Hillary supporters, and though a few were hard to swallow, most were extremely refreshing and gave this Obamacon some perspective. Jeralyn, you provided a unique place for debate and dissent, and I urge you not to shut it down even in the name of victory in november. Please provide more clarification of what you are banning. I truly believe that even those who continue to advocate the PUMA position at this late stage should be welcome here because they are rational, intelligent, fellow dems, Americans who in the end, are only asking for a little more convincing. And that is our job! Please let them have this little haven where you and I, and all those who now support the ticket for various reasons, can respectfully engage our friends still reluctant to join us!
    You and BTD are uniquely American!

    You might just be the commenter (5.00 / 2) (#213)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:12:28 PM EST
    who could persuade me.  Thanks for a great post. :-)

    Looks like (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by Lahdee on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:04:32 PM EST
    we're losing a lot of folks. Many brought unique and cogent thoughts to the discussion. It's regrettable that they would limit themselves because of dismay over the party's nominee.

    It's not so much dismay over (5.00 / 14) (#118)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:19:34 PM EST
    the ticket, it's the walking on eggshells, afraid that how something is expressed will be deemed the "wrong" kind of criticism.

    Given that this place is already about the most polite and well-mannered site out there, and knowing that it often takes a great deal of restraint sometimes to express in measured tones thoughts that one might prefer to scream, to now have to parse and second-guess even more is just more restraint than I want - or need.


    Precisely..... (5.00 / 11) (#136)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:27:45 PM EST
    ...I have to censor myself 24/7 because I work and live with extremely zealous and sensitive Obama supporters. I am not one to bash Obama personally, but I'm on eggshells not to offend just by simply not being "inspired." So it was a relief to be able to be myself. To be just able to snark. I can't wait till this election is over. That's all I have to see. It will be a profound relief for me.

    Maria Garcia (5.00 / 0) (#180)
    by lilburro on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:56:26 PM EST
    I hope you stay...you always IMO seem to have been able to balance criticism and snark with a sincere interest that the Dems including Obama do the right thing.  I cannot recall a malevolent comment by you directed at our Dem candidates.

    I think what is needed here is not malevolence but argumentation, not drive by "Obama doesn't know!" "Obama will never!" but reasonable redress.  I believe that's what Jeralyn is trying to create.

    IMO, a lot of you who may think you cross the line, don't.


    completely concur (none / 0) (#194)
    by Lil on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Yes, TL has helped my marriage:-) (5.00 / 2) (#245)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:30:00 PM EST
    and my relationships with family and friends, many of whom still are family and friends because I had somewhere I could find people of like minds -- and also very good and funny minds, unlike too many blogs.

    Ah well, at least this site still will be a good place to find a lawyer.  Without what the site was, I may need one.


    stay Maria (none / 0) (#225)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:17:36 PM EST
    this to shall pass

    You're (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Lahdee on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:47:39 PM EST
    insights will be missed.

    that should be (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Lahdee on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:48:37 PM EST
    your insights, not you're insights.

    For my own part, (none / 0) (#200)
    by Realleft on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:05:04 PM EST
    I'll respect the rules as best I can understand them, and if I get banned for making mistakes in following the rules, I'm sure I'll live!  I already can't post on BTD's blogs because of some error in judgment I made in posting, and I'm not sure just what I did, but as he said to me, "it's a big blog world out there" and I still like to read the posts in those threads and will do the same site-wide if it comes to that.

    Anyway, I'm happy to read any opinions, but even being pretty new here I am already tired of Obamabots, "The One," "CDS" etc. etc.  It's like being on a elementary school playground sometimes, and it pretty much never advances any useful discussion as far as I can tell, though I can understand how it can feel good sometimes to talk like that.


    I'm looking at it as the (5.00 / 4) (#202)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    'Don't cry over spilt milk rule'. I'll stay in those guidelines and see how it goes. I think we can snark and have criticism of the ticket as long as we don't go on and on about why we think it is the wrong ticket.  (If we do think that - which I'm not saying. anymore.)

    Sad to say Adieu as well (5.00 / 4) (#102)
    by Liberty4 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:10:22 PM EST
    Sorry Jeralyn, but I cannot support this ticket either. I am very afraid of what lies ahead for this country if O/B makes it to the WH. And I will not be swayed by fear tactics about SCOTUS. It is not on the voter's backs to worry about SCOTUS, that is the job of the Congress. If they show some backbone, we won't have to worry about the tilt of the Court. I put country above Party and the Dems lost me this year financially and as a voter. I am sad to leave here, as TL was an oasis in the madness that swirled throughout the political blogs. Sadly there is no place for me any longer. I had hoped there would be at TL.
    Best to you and your blog.

    If I have nothing good to say...... (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Kefa on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:10:31 PM EST
    I will say nothing.

    Thank you (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by Nadai on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:11:44 PM EST
    Thank you to Jeralyn and BTD, both for the haven and the kicks in the a$$.  I've enjoyed my visits here and I'm truly grateful for the opportunity to read so many fine posts and comments.

    I'm a tepid supporter of the Obama ... (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:12:05 PM EST
    and have been since Hillary dropped out.

    Four years ago when the party nominated Kerry, I swallowed my problems with him and energetically supported and worked for him.  But I told myself, I was never again going to succumb to the wishes of the party if they went against what I thought was right.

    Well, it looks like I'm doing it again.

    I have a problem with breaking-up with women too.


    I am more like the woman (5.00 / 6) (#112)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:15:24 PM EST
    they interviewed, Ann Price-Mills, after Hillary spoke.
    I WANT to support the ticket, I am just not there yet.  It has surprised me at how deep my hurt and frustration has gone.

    I have never had, and still have no personal issues with Obama .  I do not think he is a bad candidate.  I simply do not think he is "the one."  Unlike Jeralyn, the addition of Biden has made it more likely I will vote for the top of the ticket(I have strong roots in working class/union supporting PA).
    Funny, many of my friends and relatives come to me about political issues.  The women in my family and in my circle of friends are/were all Hillary supporters.  I have no problem reminding them that despite our personal disappointment we MUST vote for Obama/Biden. But in my heart, I remain sad and disappointed.  My anger at the MSM, expecially at the sexism, has not abated one bit.  My anger at the democratic party and Dean and Brazille grows.
    Even while convincing myself the importance of voting for Obama/Biden, I will work to get the voices of 18 million voters heard by the DNC who I believe treated us shabbily and unfairly.

    Further clarification.... (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by p lukasiak on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:17:32 PM EST
    insofar as much of the 'knee-jerk' criticism of Obama has been in response to 'Obama follower talking points' criticism of PUMAs and/or Hillary Clinton, how do you plan on handling critics of PUMAs and Clinton?   Do the same rules apply to them?

    There has definitely has been a recent significant increase in the number of criticisms of Obama that have little or no relationship to the topic (any post about McCain immediately becomes about why Obama is 'just as bad' or 'can't be trusted' on that issue/topic -- and then expands into any criticism of Obama that can possibly be tied to that topic).   But what REALLY gets the knee-jerk "why I can't support Obama' stuff going is criticisms of PUMAs that insult our integrity and/or intelligence.

    Should those of us who find themselves unable to support the Democratic ticket expect to be assaulted with unlimited criticism, or will there be some limits to it?

    I have noticed (5.00 / 0) (#122)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:21:42 PM EST
    that there has been a lot less of that crap everywhere since Hillary gave her speech, thankfully.

    Thank you! (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by abiodun on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:22:02 PM EST
    You have always been an incisive writer, even when the reader may not agree with you. Your decision to support the Democratic ticket is one you have arrived at thoughtfully, as anyone who has followed your writings can attest to.

    I am elated you have decided to join the ranks of those of us who pitchsd our tents with the presumptive nominee once the primaries was over.

    I know one thing i will not do (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by magisterludi on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:22:31 PM EST
    and that is anything to help McCain in any way shape or form.

    When Mac speaks of how he loves America, I think of that line in the movie "Mother" with Albert Brooks and Debbie Reynolds:

    Mother; "I love you, son.'

    Son:  'I know you think you do."

    Funny, poignant movie. (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:36:44 PM EST
    Are you sure you wouldn't like some cheese?

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Todd on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:28:10 PM EST
    I've been coming here for years but have been a lurker.(I've just now signed up) Loved coming here during the primaries, primarily because you were so darn good at keeping your commentators in line and focused on discussion. The last month I've noticed that the threads had devolved into, I don't know, whining, I guess. There was none of that discussion thing.
    You are so good at controlling your comment threads. Anyone can make their case in 4 comments if they have the cajones to back it up.
    Thanks again. I feel TalkLeft is going to come back as a real hot bed for discussion.

    Progressive (5.00 / 5) (#139)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:29:28 PM EST
    It's never been about Obama vs Hilary for me. It's about the progressive agenda and how it reach it. I agree that Obama is a better alternative than McCain. But I'll never be Olbermann! When they do stupid things that continually cost us opportunities, they need to be called out. This election cycle should be a fantastic opportunity to advance the progressive agenda. But if everyone rolls over and marches to the same drum, the party sure won't push the movement.

    Does this count as a negative? I wouldn't think so but....

    "A Republican-led...." (5.00 / 0) (#141)
    by ChiTownDenny on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:31:44 PM EST
    Jeralyn, you speak for me.  I'm biting my lip, hoping we will have a Dem presidency, even this one!

    Other blogs? (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by facta non verba on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:32:48 PM EST
    What are other blogs are there?

    Jeralyn and BTD, I will lurk but refrain from criticizing the ticket. Above all, I do want to thank you for your efforts. This is a great blog and one from which I have learned much. I have nothing but the utmost respect admiration for both of you. This is a very civil place. Thank you.

    It's been fun. (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by suisser on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:40:19 PM EST
    Thanks for all the bright light during such a dismal time.

    Well, this gives me something to think about (5.00 / 5) (#157)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:40:32 PM EST
    I'm not going to stalk off in a huff but I don't know if my observations/criticisms are going to cross the line and that makes me less enthused about chiming in. In which case, I would be self-censoring all the time, something I'm not good at.

    I really wish I could "get on board". Up until FISA I thought I would be able to, but my conscience will not allow me to support something that's only slightly better than what the other side is offering. I've done that too many times in life and I'm done with it. Pardon my skepticism, but I know quite a few politicians personally -- one is a good friend -- and even these "good Democrats" are very focused on doing whatever it takes to keep their seats of power. I know a little too much about the real people behind the faces in D.C. and I simply do not believe this year's presidential nominee has my best interests at heart.

    Because I started reading, though not commenting at, TL long before this presidential season, I'll probably lurk again to see how the next few weeks shake out before deciding one way or the other if I have a place here.

    Regardless, Jeralyn, you have created a wonderful, safe and thought-provoking sounding board throughout the primary season and I very much admire how civil this blog has been, in comparison to almost any other blog you can name on the internet.

    I support the Democratic party (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by SarahSpin on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:41:03 PM EST
    Even if I don't always agree with the particular standard bearers it has chosen.  In fact, if I'm disappointed in the nominees, I find that to give me more reason to care about the platform.  It's not just about the people at the top.  The Democratic party has always been about the people, all of us.

    Many thanks to (5.00 / 5) (#164)
    by txpolitico67 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:45:17 PM EST
    JM and TL.  Thanks to this site I have actually made a couple of new friends.  TL gave HRC supporters a rational blog to come and discuss issues while also engaging in convivial chat about family, pets, gardening, music, books and travel.

    I often say that if someone has something they wanna comment or blog about, and feeling restricted, I quote Jeralyn:  

    "start your own blog."  

    Like some on here I have expressed my position with respect to the Democratic ticket and have moved on.  Since my position is left of Talk Left (voting Green here), I will stop by from time to time but not comment.  JM shows a lot of respect to commenters, it's time we do the same.

    Smooches to all and much love from the state that brought you Barbara Jordan and my beloved Governor Ann Richards.


    Wow, Jeralyn (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by Lil on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:45:56 PM EST
    obviously hit a nerve for a lot of folks. I'm surprised at how black and white some folks are. (I'm leaving/I'm staying); I hope ya all stay because I've come to enjoy your comments. But I think a lot of folks are missing the essence of the post and nitpicking too much.

    As a critic of the ticket (5.00 / 0) (#169)
    by daryl herbert on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:47:02 PM EST
    thank you for allowing me to comment here.  Your commenting policies are fair and reasonable.

    No one is "entitled" to comment on someone else's blog.

    If at some point between now and Nov. 4, you decide that your goals in having this blog are incompatible with allowing people to say why they won't vote for Obama, then you have every right to ask us to stop commenting.  I enjoy the interactions here and hope I can continue to participate in TalkLeft, but ultimately, it's your decision, and there is no "wrong" decision.  It's just a question of what you want this site to be.

    I'm going to need some time (5.00 / 7) (#181)
    by joanneleon on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:56:27 PM EST
    to work things through and hopefully support this ticket.  Right now, I'm officially undecided.  The only thing I do know is that I won't support or vote for McCain.

    As for the party right now, and that includes the "ticket" and the Congress, and especially the leaders, I'm pretty worried about where we're going, and I think they need as much constructive criticism as they can get.  I think they need to hear the voices.  Right now, it appears that the leadership is not not listening at all, and that, IMHO, is their biggest problem, and hence, our biggest problem.

    As for TL, I would very much miss reading and posting here.  I'm not sure if my commenting would qualify as kvetching or not.  Sometimes it probably is.  Need time to see how things are going forward, and to think over whether this is a place for me or not.

    In any case, thanks for the opportunity to be part of this community.  All the best to everyone at TL.

    Just contributed $500 to the ticket (5.00 / 3) (#185)
    by DemForever on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:57:42 PM EST
    I am looking forward to the speech tonight, and to seeing Al Gore introduce him.

    I will vote for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by DaytonDem on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:01:52 PM EST
    and actively support him and I have no big problem with the commenting rules as I don't comment often anyway, but the Supreme Court argument drives me to distraction. We already have enough Democrats in the Senate to stop radical appointments. If the point is that we all know the dems will cave then that leads to the I have to vote for Democrats to protect me from other Democrats argument. God I wish our party had some, any, backbone.

    So long, and thanks for all the fisk! :-) (5.00 / 9) (#201)
    by blogtopus on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:05:20 PM EST
    Jeralyn, I don't think its a coincidence that you are asking this after the roll call, etc. It makes sense.

    However, with this new policy, I already see a lot more rah rah rah Obama posters coming through, and while I have conceded that I will be voting for Obama (as the token black candidate - MLK would be so proud), I don't think I need to read what I can hear perfectly fine on MSNBC and CNN.

    Who knows? Maybe it will help me with my Obama issues if I don't read what all his problems are in the first place. (I KNOW that you will continue to police him, but what's the point? He gets what he wants unless people here are encouraged to vote as they see fit, regardless of whether there is a D after his name.)

    Thanks for all the empowerment while it lasted, Jeralyn. Take care, and you too, BTD and TChris. You guys rock like Bill and Hill and you fought the good fight.

    And then there were none (5.00 / 5) (#203)
    by mjames on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    It was great while it lasted. Really great.
    You have provided a forum for so many of us bitter "racists" who worked for the Dems and civil rights and women's rights for decades. And you deserve tremendous credit for that.
    However, Cass Sunstein, who will be nominated to the Supreme Court by Obama and approved by the pusillanimous Democratic Congress, has stated unequivocally that Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided. So I don't see the courts as much of a reason to back Obama.
    I'll keep reading BTD - of course.

    Today's Gallup 48-42... (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by mike in dc on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:09:38 PM EST
    ...suggests a bounce effect is under way, and I suspect he will wind up around +10 to +12 by the weekend in Gallup, and maybe +4 to +8 in Ras.  A pretty decent bounce.  I think the combination of having to follow us, a likely underwhelming VP pick, two hurricanes and the start of pro football season will probably limit the effectiveness of the Republican convention next week, and Obama should be up somewhere between +4 and +8 in aggregate polling, in my opinion, 10 days from now.  
    If he beats McCain in the first debate, and withstands the almost-certain resurrection of the Wright story, then he's going to win this thing pretty handily in the EC, and by a decent margin in the pop vote.  I'm still optimistic he'll win by at least 6 points in the PV.

    i read the details (5.00 / 4) (#236)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:22:19 PM EST
    behind the poll.  The numbers are for Mon, Tues and Wed.  The bounce showed up today, not yesterday.  So, the bounce can be attributed to Hillary Clinton's appearance at the convention.

    Yesterday's numbers would have included Michelle Obama's appearance.  And, even though Wed is in the numbers, Bill Clinton's appearnace last night would have been too late in the day to appear in today's numbers.

    So, giving Hillary a prime time convention speech was worth a 6 point lead for Obama.  All that worrying about "capitulating to Clinton's demands" for nothing.


    Sign o' the times (5.00 / 6) (#215)
    by Oje on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:14:06 PM EST
    I do not post enough for the new rules to effect me. I am voting for Obama, though I have not sent money to the DNC or Obama campaign (gave about 1k to Clinton) in response to the DNC's actions and the culture accompanying this new left authoritarianism.

    From the primaries, to the convention, to the blogs, I am bewildered by the enforcement of unity. The power of political discourse is in its repetition, not its expression in four parts - or uniformity. Parties and blogs are organic collectives, filled with rancor as much as agreement. Ernesto Laclau, radical democracy, anyone?

    Certainly, blogging communities can atrophy and recollect easily, but parties have a density that does not favor the kind of Balkanization and recombination we have witnessed from progressive (used in its most inclusive sense) blogs during this cycle. Left bloggers once purported to be ideological apparatus that could change party elites (crashing the gates). Now, what we see over and over again this cycle, are bloggers' efforts to change or silence party rank and file.

    Does talkleft's public responsibility as a tiny lever on party politics end with an assertion of private ownership? A kind of net neutrality (a common posting rule for all, regardless of political bent) now does not apply to the proprietors of blogs? Can the political capital created by a social community suddenly be seized as the personal capital of the principle posters (as dailykos and TPM clearly believed)?

    What is going on? We Democrats are recreating the worst elements of 20th-century consensus politics, as evident in your friend's letter from yesterday.

    Jeralyn, thank you so much! (5.00 / 2) (#216)
    by independent voter on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:14:26 PM EST
    I rarely comment more than 4X in any one day, and I have been an Obama supporter from the beginning. It does get tiresome seeing the same arguments (on both sides) made in virtually every thread.
    I am thrilled that this site is going to come together and support Obama/Biden for victory in November!!

    I 2nd that !!! bravo! (5.00 / 0) (#257)
    by MrPope on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 02:39:36 PM EST
    Thank you (5.00 / 7) (#239)
    by Lena on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:23:37 PM EST
    for giving us this outpost from the madness of Obamania. By providing a place where people could realistically assess Obama's shortcomings and the party's failings, Talkleft probably helped turn more people towards voting for him than any of the pro-Obama threats from fellow Democrats ever could. (though perhaps the accusatory "you're-a-racist-if-you-don't-support-Obama" comments turned an equal number away from him).

    I enjoyed occasionally posting here, but will be off to explore different sites to discuss the shenanigans of the Democratic party and DNC from a more critical viewpoint.

    Thank you again!

    4 Comments (5.00 / 0) (#242)
    by Todd on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:27:45 PM EST
    I'm really finding it difficult to understand how people feel they have to leave when they are given a limit of 4 comments to be critical of the ticket. There are people saying ciao and they probably only leave a comment a day. Why the drama? It seems like  like the kid who picks up his ball and leaves the sandbox when he's told to play nicer. No one has been asked to leave, I think, people have only been asked to come play with a bit more than "I hate the ticket. I'm not voting for it."

    I leave for now with these thoughts (5.00 / 10) (#247)
    by dissenter on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:43:32 PM EST
        We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.
            -Edward R Murrow

        Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.
           -Harry S Truman

    There is tonic in the things that men do not love to hear; and there is damnation in the things that wicked men love to hear. Free speech is to a great people what winds are to oceans and malarial regions, which waft away the elements of disease, and bring new elements of health. And where free speech is stopped miasma is bred, and death comes fast.
          - Henry Ward Beecher

    Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.
          - William Orville Douglas

    We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is afraid of its people.
          - John Fitzgerald Kennedy

    If the fires of freedom and civil liberties burn low in other lands, they must be made brighter in our own. If in other lands the press and books and literature of all kinds are censored, we must redouble our efforts here to keep them free.
          - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    Free speech, exercised both individually and through a free press, is a necessity in any country where people are themselves free.
          - Theodore Roosevelt

    There is no more fundamental axiom of American freedom than the familiar statement: In a free country we punish men for crimes they commit but never for the opinions they have.
          - Harry S. Truman

    Blind loyalty to a politician, a dogma or a party is the fastest way to kill what you hold most dear.

    Signing off.

    Thanks for the great site Jeralyn (5.00 / 0) (#249)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:51:09 PM EST
    Does this mean I can shill for our candidate now... :)

    Fact is, I've never drunk the cool aid.  Obama has huge potential and just as huge liabilities/failings.  My hope is to find ways to use the rock star appeal to get him elected, while still holding his feet to the fire on left wing issues.  It'll be tricky.  I'm willing to accept some things like his FISA flip flop because I think our party would be dead in the water without it, and because I don't trust the multi-billionaires who lead the Bush Admin around by the nose to not set off a dirty bomb in our country just to instill more fear and win the election.  But eliminating FISA from the Repubs arsenal this election cycle doesn't mean giving up on constitutional rights.  

    I'd like to brainstorm ways to win (take back our government) without losing our shirts.  For instance, how can we subvert the hold Republicans have on evangelicals and incorporate them under the big tent without ending up with their religion in our public schools?  Burning them off only drives them back to Repubs who lie to them and make fun of us and our issues in order to capture their votes and stay in power.  But the fact is, we have more shared values with them than the Repub party does, but we disagree on methods.  For example, we all want a better world for our kids, we care about helping others, we believe in freedom of and from religion (yes they do also but they may need reminding since they're part of the dominant religion in our country). Christians don't want Islamic law instilling in our government any more that we want the Bible taught in our schools.  

    Anyway, some of the things I'd like to talk about with Obama supporters and critics are:  fixing FISA after the election, how to support an Obama Admin in making the right foreign policy decisions, how to mindfully extract our troops from Iraq, establishing functional energy policies, selecting/promoting OUR people to replace industry insiders that Dubya installed in federal regulatory agencies, etc.

    How? (5.00 / 6) (#250)
    by lentinel on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:51:58 PM EST
    How did you "resolve your conflicts" re: Biden?

    Chill out!! Don't leave. Jeralyn is not making (5.00 / 5) (#251)
    by Teresa on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:55:39 PM EST
    anyone hold their tongue when discussing issues. It's the personal attacks that she is stopping, if I understand correctly. Maria Garcia, Anne, Cream City, Fabian, Kredwyn many many others of you...don't leave!

    I've been at TL since way before any of these candidates announced they were running. I have learned so much about women's history and the history of our party from reading you all. I've learned about the Russia vs Georgia struggle and the Iraq war and FISA...I could go on all day.

    I have also laughed my butt off with you. Most of you have been nothing but gentle and reasonable in your criticism. I don't think Jeralyn wants that stopped. I'll just be heartbroken if all of you leave. I can't possibly name all of you...but stay! We are Democrats, we fight together, but we are family.

    TChris, regarding icebergslim, speak to BTD (5.00 / 4) (#253)
    by Teresa on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 02:02:41 PM EST
    about her. She is vicious...far worse than any of our Obama haters are. Please don't defend her.

    I have tremendous respect for you and I appreciate that you defend commenters here who are attacked wrongly. You're just uninformed about this one.

    I am not on board with this ticket (5.00 / 2) (#254)
    by Manuel on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 02:04:59 PM EST
    despite Hillary's and Bill's excellent efforts.  I am keeping an open mind but I need to see more from Obama/Biden.  The party has managed to paper over significant differences between those who would fight for the issues we care about and those who might sell those issues out.   I liked Bill's comment yesterday about how the Republicans have been wrong on security and the economy for over twenty five years.  Contrast that with Obama's "The Republicans have been the party of ideas", and you can understand my reservations.

    This is a great blog and great community with excellent commenters (even when I don't agree) and frank discussions.  I hope that will continue.  Thanks for providing the space and the large amount of time required for site maintenance.

    Thank You, Jeralyn (5.00 / 0) (#255)
    by Dave Latchaw on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 02:13:40 PM EST
    Talk Left has long been one of my favorite blogs, one I read every day. But I've been skipping the comment sections lately because it's just the same thing over and over and over.

    "Senator (5.00 / 2) (#256)
    by tek on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 02:30:28 PM EST
    Obama and Joe Biden are our nominees."  you say that as if the traditional Dems had something to do with it.  <snark>

    I'm trying really hard to just get involved in  basketweaving and forget all about politics.  My husband says we should become activists, but this election has demonstrated that the only action that counts in American politics is the act of corporations deciding who will be in the WH.  And I was an activist in the '60s, much good it did.

    I'm PUMA... (5.00 / 1) (#260)
    by apolitiko on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 05:42:15 PM EST
    ....so I guess that means I'm out of here too.

    Thanks for the honest critique during the primaries.

    Though my comments are always civil, I can't stand to read a blog that wants to create a happy world where the ticket has reason to be supported and those who don't end up being punished.

    Talk Left out of my bookmarks

    Now I know for sure (4.83 / 12) (#80)
    by Emma on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:59:01 AM EST
    that I'm a PUMA.  :)

    I too fail to see how pledging unconditional support to any politician allows you to simultaneously hold their feet to the fire.  Nonetheless, good luck with your efforts.

    Well... (4.72 / 11) (#248)
    by DancingOpossum on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:50:29 PM EST
    TL has long been one of the most thoughtful, intelligent blogs going, and BTD reigns supreme among the prog-blogs. The moderation was always fair and kept the tone just right (and I say this as someone who had a post deleted at least once!)

    That said, I am sensing already that the new rules are going to allow an influx of the, shall we say, most "fervent" pro-Obama posters and give free reign to their repeated threats, slurs, and assorted exhortations to get on board. I can't. This ticket doesn't get my vote or my nickel so it looks like I will have to say buh-bye for now. I'll keep reading/lurking, as long as the comments don't become too DK-like.

    Thanks again, this has been a true haven in the madness. Best to all.

    Hillary and Bill Helped Change My ... (4.60 / 10) (#66)
    by santarita on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:53:34 AM EST
    thinking.  They helped me remember what the Democratic agenda is and it is one that I support.  And despite Biden's votes on certain issues, I thought that Obama made a very good choice in selecting Biden.  No one that has been a Senator for as long as Biden has been around can be ideologically pure.  And he is a direct kind of guy and will be a counterbalance to the sometimes ethereal Obama.

    I am not sure that Obama fully appreciates the responsibility that goes with the nomination and hopefully the Presidency but then again who really does until they have actually served?  And in looking at the differences between Hillary and Obama, I realize that they are two completely different kind of candidates - one appeals to the intellectual side and the other appeals to the emotional and passionate side.  But fundamentally they are Democrats and that means something positive in my mind.

    So without a doubt I will vote Democratic and will hope for the best.  

    That was absolutely (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by shoulin4 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:00:42 PM EST
    the most thoughtful and thought-provoking thing I have read today. In fact, that right there was the most thoughtful and thought-provoking thing I have read on any website throughout this primary season.

    Please excuse me for gushing, but I just felt I had to say so.

    7, 8, lay 'em straight!


    Great post (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by DemForever on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:08:28 PM EST
    politics,  like life, is a lot about probabilities.  I know that the probability of Obama adopting policies that I support, Supreme Court nominees that I agree with, other appointments I support, are much, much higher than with McCain.  It's a no brainer for me.  
    And I say this with my eyes wide open that he will at times disappoint me, frustrate me and exasperate me.  But he is still infinitely preferable to President McCain and Justice Hatch.

    "Crazy and confused" (4.60 / 15) (#161)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:41:24 PM EST
    is your version of respect for Democrats who don't agree with you?

    PUMAs are a lot of things but 'crazy and confused' isn't one of them.

    Try angry.  Try furious.  Try exasperated.

    Try determined.

    Determined to hold the Democratic Party accountable.

    FYI - PUMA is about the Party...not the candidates themselves.

    am home now from PUMA Denver (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by athyrio on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    and had a great time and enjoyed meeting so many folks...including Murphy and Riverdaughter...I will hold my criticisms to 4 a day no problem...have a great day everyone...



    I'm sorry that we can't hear more (5.00 / 5) (#221)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:16:07 PM EST
    about it all here.  But I'll look for you and other reporters on it at other blogs, where I've followed it a bit.  (Busy week.)

    It would seem that it may be an important movement within the party, so it would be wise even for those who support the party to listen.  I will, anyway.


    Comfortable with my decision not to vote for Obama (4.25 / 4) (#258)
    by Bornagaindem on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 02:49:54 PM EST
    I find it difficult to understand why democrats would support a ticket which is no different than the George W. Bush ticket of 2000? Tell me what experience Obama has or what he has accomplished that makes him qualified to be president? George W. Bush had no experience except as governor of Texas -a largely ceremonial job. How many of you think that one of your state senators (where the job is part time) is qualified to be president. Dubya too needed an experienced old hand on his ticket otherwise there would have been absolutely no one in charge.  This is what republicans do. They vote for the ticket because they put party above country.

    I am perfectly comfortable voting and working for down ticket democrats and not voting for the guy who is going to need training wheels. It is up to the likes of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to rein in a runaway McCain not me. Since the electoral college still exists I still don't even have the right to vote for president. So why are so many of you acting as if it is the end of the world if you can't support the top of the ticket.

    And tell me how do you democrats and especially progressives live with yourselves when you know the most qualified candidates were ignored in favor of the Hopey/ changey guy? who wasn't even the overwhelming choice of your fellow democrats? and who then didn't even select as his running mate the candidate who split those dems evenly with him.? Real politcal acumen that. Bodes well for his future decisions.  

    to quote you (3.60 / 5) (#72)
    by progrocks on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:56:05 AM EST
    "and will not lament the Dems losing, since they will be in solid control of both branches of Congress. "

    how is that working out now? will that stop a republican justice department?  will it stop republican judges?  


    Logic would be more persuasive. (5.00 / 7) (#198)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:04:45 PM EST
    Do you understand what you just said here? :-)

    GE time (2.30 / 10) (#167)
    by MrPope on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:46:34 PM EST
    TY  Jeralyn    This is now The GE  
    Primary season is over...

    time get the DEM ticket elected.

    TL was becoming bash-obama.com.... hopefully the people who leave will find another site to complain about and bash OBAMA all day on.  PUMA is always looking for new people.

    I didn't see it that way (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by Lil on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:48:58 PM EST
    there was a pretty nice mix.

    There's a difference (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by facta non verba on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:53:58 PM EST
    between bashing and fair criticism. There was never any gratutious bashing of Obama. NQ-USA seems to hold on monopoly on that.

    There are some other fair-minded blogs as well.


    Guess it depends on your definition of bash (5.00 / 3) (#189)
    by DemForever on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Yep, it's your site and (2.00 / 0) (#107)
    by my opinion on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:12:58 PM EST
    your rules, but I find it odd that you are moving close to being like a plethora of other sites out there. You are losing the unique quality this site had.
    Have fun hearing only one side of the issues propped up by fallacy and propaganda in the comments. I can get that a lot of other places. See ya.

    This blog for the longest... (1.25 / 31) (#182)
    by icebergslim on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:56:52 PM EST
    festered the sentiments of many that are told, "NOW" to hit the road.

    Meaning, even when Hillary LOST after Wisconsin, when Chuck Todd, repeatedly said count the math, when many did NOT want to follow the Democratic Rules, which were adhered to in the end, now you are told to hit the road.

    Well, it should have been get behind Obama MONTHS ago, but this blog was allowed to fester that bitterness until you heard Hill and Bill tell you to get behind the ticket.

    At this point, if you do not, when Obama and Clinton are practically on the SAME PAGE in Policy, it is personal and it tinges with race.  Sorry, it does.

    I am am African-American woman who has REPEATEDLY fell in line, even with WHITE politicians who have repeatedly FAILED.

    It is now your time.  To whine about this at this point is moot.  You have no reason NOT to back this ticket unless for your personal feelings.  And yes, the Democratic Party is a big tent, and YES, some don't want to vote for a bi-racial man.

    Pity.  If McCain get in, DON'T WHINE if your job is sent overseas, your healthcare premiums go through the roof, homes in your neighborhood is abandoned for months, years, you can't find a job, and the constitution is totally destroyed.

    It's on you.

    How dare you (5.00 / 12) (#199)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:05:03 PM EST
    You really think that accusing people of being racist is going to help you? Fat f*cking chance.

    Now get back under your bridge, troll.


    Unfair. (2.66 / 6) (#241)
    by TChris on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:26:14 PM EST
    I don't read icebergslim's comment as calling any particular commenter a racist. I think she is making the point that some critics of Obama have a problem with his race. That point of view is certainly true, although I don't suggest that it is true of any particular commenter here. It is also a common viewpoint in the African American community, given what I've heard in discussions with black voters and from listening to call-in shows.  Being dismissive of that viewpoint and calling her a "troll" for voicing it is really insensitive ... just as it was insensitive for people to dismiss or impugn the observation that sexism played a role in the criticisms of some opponents of Hillary Clinton.

    I have to say (5.00 / 22) (#214)
    by standingup on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:13:33 PM EST
    you have been one of the biggest Obama supporters on the blogs that have helped to foster the bitterness and animosity between the two camps.  I can't speak for Jeralyn, do not condone every commenter her either but I don't believe that the change in policy is one that gives you free reign to be disrespectful either.  

    maybe it's a difference of opinion (5.00 / 15) (#218)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:15:16 PM EST
    but when you say this

    "when Chuck Todd, repeatedly said count the math, when many did NOT want to follow the Democratic Rules"

    Chuck Todd's math didn't mean anything.  Because, there was NEVER any "rule" in the dem party stating that a super delegate MUST vote for the candidate who received the greater number of pledged delegates.  It is that simple.

    The super delegates could have, if they had decided to, voted en masse for Clinton and made her the nominee.

    So, starting the "get out of the race" meme as early as some people did, and repeating it here again as if it was a RULE of some sort, doesn't sit well with many people.

    And, I would submit that it is comments like yours that, when posted, would tend to inspire a lot of the repetitive, "bashing" type of comments that the new rules here have been designed to limit.


    Oh my. (5.00 / 21) (#230)
    by aquarian on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:18:57 PM EST
    Jeralyn:  I hope your post doesn't encourage posters I came here to avoid.  

    See? Knew this would happen... (5.00 / 15) (#235)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:22:02 PM EST
    You are one of the most (5.00 / 11) (#252)
    by suki on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 02:01:55 PM EST
    toxic people I've ever read on a blog.
    You are a huge reason that DK became what it did and now you're coming here to try and do the same?
    I will say no more out of respect for the posting rules here.
    Watch out, Jeralyn.
    This is a bad sign.

    Excuse me (4.84 / 26) (#210)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:10:37 PM EST
    You have a long track record as one of the most, if not the most, hateful person on the blogs during the primary.

    Jeralyn's moderation decision is not an invitation for people like yourself to set up shop and start spreading your divisive message.  Gee, if people still aren't behind Obama, it "tinges with race"?  Great way to slam the door on everyone who isn't already inside!

    If you care one bit for the cause of electing Barack Obama, you will keep your divisiveness and hate far away from this site.

    As much as the last few nights have made me enthusiastic about supporting Obama, your post has single-handedly reminded me of just how unbearable I found the online Obama supporters during the primary.  And fair or not, it does get held against him.


    Lucky Number 7 (none / 0) (#73)
    by shoulin4 on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:56:29 AM EST
    I just wanted to say that, overall, this is a pretty good blog. Thank you for your hard work.

    I thought BTD moderated (none / 0) (#154)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:39:12 PM EST
    the comments to his posts.  

    A good perspective (none / 0) (#223)
    by Radix on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:17:08 PM EST
    I'll try this again. (none / 0) (#237)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:22:23 PM EST
    Progressive Democrats for Change

    Join the group and leave your info.

    oh man (none / 0) (#243)
    by ccpup on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:27:52 PM EST
    that truly, truly bums me out.  Big time. Like, tears in my eyes Big Time.

    My condolences to her loving wife and family.

    I need a cookie.

    I applaud the new policy - thank you (none / 0) (#259)
    by Ennis on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 04:29:35 PM EST
    Ever since I began participating on TalkLeft, nearly all posts of my contrary opinions and analysis have been met by a string of personal attacks.  It's been very difficult to communicate logically and politely in a paradigm of anti-Obama vituperation.

    There should be no problem for people to adapt to the new paradigm.  If the same rules are applied to Obama-nays as have been applied to Obama-yeas in the past, we'll have more balance and calm in which to explore issues and discuss the general election.

    I like it.