Some Comic Relief And A Real Problem

Provided by Frank Rich:

What Obama also should have learned by now is that the press is not his friend.

Of course, Rich is so for Obama, that he hurts him like this:

So while Obama can continue to try to reassure resistant Clinton loyalists in Appalachia that hes not a bogeyman from Madrassaland . . .

Relatedly, Todd Beeton provides an interesting anecdote from Denver:

On my shuttle to the hotel, I encountered a storm of another kind: an Obama delegate from Illinois and a Clinton delegate from Massachusetts. When she said she was a Hillary delegate, the Obama delegate said facetiously: "Oh they're letting you in here, are they?" She retorted (in a friendly but stern way): "That's what's wrong with Obama folks. You're not reaching out to the Hillary people." It was the second time in as many days that I'd heard the same complaint from a Hillary supporter.

It is this arrogance that could sink Obama's campaign. Obama's supporters I find are his worst enemies now.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Aarrrrggghhhhh! (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:06:44 PM EST
    and furthermore, Arrrggghhhhh!

    Yes, I agree (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by stefystef on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:07:46 PM EST
    It is the arrogance of Obama, his followers and the Dean-controlled DNC that may be the downfall of this election and the Democratic Party.

    Yes. Well, they've always been his worst enemies. (5.00 / 20) (#10)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:16:44 PM EST
    On the other hand, if he didn't like what they are doing, he could say something. McCain has done that.  He's denounced the tactics of his supporters, when they have gotten out of hand. But Obama NEVER says anything -unless it's forced for political reasons --like firing the woman who called Hillary a monster.  But 99% of the time, whether it's his supporters bullying people or booing Hillary or the MSM making vile, misogynist remarks,  all we hear is crickets.

    i believe his silence is very informative. It also doesn't help that he is capable of giving people the finger and brushing them off his shoulder and doing little passive aggressive things like hiring Patti Solis Doyle to run his VP's campaign or deliberately humiliating General Clark.  

    I've worked for a lot of organizations and permission for bad behavior always comes from the top.


    And the fact that the permission (5.00 / 7) (#54)
    by vigkat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:38:04 PM EST
    is being broadcast in such a subtle manner is part of its irresistible lure.  The secret code aspect of it is so thrillingly "insider cool."  How can those to whom the code is being directed resist the urge to act in conformity with it?

    Sweet God... (2.25 / 8) (#40)
    by NvlAv8r on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:32:26 PM EST
    Samantha Powers actually resigned after calling Hillary a monster, she wasn't fired.  Too bad, as she is incredibly smart, but she was a liability after being undisciplined.

    More Anti-Obama memes falseley perpetuated:

    1.  He gave Hillary "the finger" during a debate.
    2.  His brushing off his shoulder was a disrespectful act toward Hillary/Hillary's supporters
    3.  Saying she gets down sometimes was a sexist remark.
    4.  Anyone he disagrees with is instantly "thrown under the bus".  
    5.  All of his decisions are based on trying to rub salt in Hillary's wounds.
    6.  Anything any of his supporters say or write should be thrown at him.
    7.  He humiliated Gen. Clark (who went off message and was "directed" to get back on message).

    This is a joke right? (5.00 / 12) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:35:23 PM EST
    Thank you BTD! (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by zfran on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:37:12 PM EST
    Your #3? No way. (5.00 / 8) (#49)
    by Grace on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:36:23 PM EST
    It was the epitome of a sexist remark.  It was equivalent to accusing her of being "PM-essy."  It goes with that whole hormonal thing.  

    ROFLMAO (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by befuddledvoter on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:38:30 PM EST
    Palomino....just think of that song by (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:43:09 PM EST
    Roy Orbison, "Running Scared".  At some level, they know they have a weak candidate and he is huge danger of losing...

    She resigned because (5.00 / 6) (#73)
    by LatinoVoter on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:45:08 PM EST
    she let the cat out of the bag regarding Obama's Iraq withdrawal plan and called Ohio voters stupid. The fact that she called Hillary a monster was lucky in that the campaign used it as an excuse for her to leave.

    The fact that you didn't even get #2 correct is just funny considering your reason for listen those items.


    The Iraq stuff didn't flare up until... (1.00 / 1) (#142)
    by NvlAv8r on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:11:44 PM EST
    She had already apologized and resigned.  Talking about their mistakes in Ohio barely made a ripple, so it wasn't that.  Nope, it was her "off the record" monster comment.

    Also, what did I get wrong with #2 on my list?


    Powers (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by ineedalife on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:33:33 PM EST
    My impression was that Powers was allowed to "resign" after she let the cat out of the bag that Obama's Iraq policy was just a "best case scenario". They very artfully used the monster comment to minimize the impact of that slip.

    Of course, now that we are in the general election, and Obama has to look like a realist, everyone accepts that his pie-in-the-sky primary demagouging on Iraq was what Powers admitted to back then.


    Well it isn't a concerted effort... (none / 0) (#117)
    by NvlAv8r on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:01:08 PM EST
    I just happen to have some extra time to peruse the internet (as I've been too busy with some schooling for the last few months) and this is a blog that I read quite a bit, but seldom post on.

    Perhaps there is a full moon?:)


    don't blame it on the moon. (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by hellothere on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:13:34 PM EST
    reread your post above. it is insulting to put it mildly.

    Hmmm. (none / 0) (#166)
    by NvlAv8r on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:18:50 PM EST
    I'll try to be less insulting in making my points.  Thanks.

    Come on (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:23:56 PM EST
    McCain is a jerk.

    Well, I disagree. I think that Obama is the bigger (5.00 / 9) (#28)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:28:42 PM EST
    jerk. McCain can be aggressive, but Obama is passive aggressive. He pretends to be above the fray but he has a mean, vindictive streak.

    You are a Clark fan. How did you like the way Obama treated him?


    I wrote about it (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:32:35 PM EST
    here. Check out my posts.

    You didn't give me a link, but I believe I read (none / 0) (#51)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:36:44 PM EST
    them already.  I usually read what you write.

    He may or may not be a jerk (5.00 / 11) (#61)
    by nycstray on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:40:39 PM EST
    But he at least recognizes what happened and is willing to pander towards her voters. Smart. She had moderate women that vote both ways. He's not going to get the more liberal women, but hey, might as well skim what he can since Obama isn't trying.

    And on a personal note, he is amusing me. I like watching how he's using the notes he took during the primary and seeing how they apply them and Axelrod counters. Should get more fun with Biden's gaffs. Obviously, I have no dog in this one. It will be interesting to look at this from a marketing stand point when it's all over. Obama is relying on branding and I'm seriously hoping they change their approach a bit now that Biden is involved. I can't imagine a future with increasingly over branded candidates. We might as well just nominate robots.


    nycstray since you say you (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:55:02 PM EST
    have no dog in this fight and by this post you seem to be able to give pretty objective analysis, I look forward to reading your posts the next two months. Even though I'm voting for Barack America, I'm not hogwild over him yet as he has yet to show me what he can do as a LEADER, not just a candidate. I'm staying optimistic, but I will be searching for analysis with a semblance of balance, which is why I'm disregarding FOX and MSNBC.

    Heh...... (none / 0) (#119)
    by michitucky on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:01:27 PM EST
    You caught the Barack America, also......

    Yeah I caught it... some Obama people (none / 0) (#152)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:15:29 PM EST
    are talking about making it into a T-shirt! I thought that was cute. Did I just say "cute"? Barack's sugar and spice theme may be rubbing off on me...     :)

    The angle I saw on the replay (none / 0) (#203)
    by nycstray on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:32:39 PM EST
    was interesting as it showed Obamas face. Fox did the 1-2 punch with Obama introducing the next president and then cut to Biden saying Barack America.

    I would say "arrogance" (1.22 / 9) (#147)
    by Ennis on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:14:10 PM EST
    is pretending that you won and stubbornly resisting the actual outcome.  It's up to Clinton supporters to support Clinton and other party leaders in their efforts to gain the Presidency.

    Step One is getting over denial and removing the chip from the shoulder.


    Isn't it amazing (5.00 / 15) (#168)
    by Steve M on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:19:33 PM EST
    how they insist on proving the point of the post without even realizing it?  Such adorable little unity ambassadors.

    actually arrogance is (5.00 / 12) (#172)
    by hellothere on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:20:50 PM EST
    telling people you desperately need they aren't wanted and tossing them all under the bus so to speak. you can do it or let your surrogates do it. doesn't matter the message was delivered and no one stood up and said that isn't the case.

    I wonder if they've developed (5.00 / 2) (#215)
    by nycstray on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:42:02 PM EST
    the 5 stages for us. Kinda sounds like it . . .

    Agreed....I seem to be doing that a lot (5.00 / 11) (#3)
    by Jjc2008 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:08:12 PM EST
    with you.
    I honestly can say that I am not nearly as upset with Senator Obama as I am with the Obama supporters, especially online though some of the real life ones here could use a few lessons in humility, respect and fair play.

    Agreed (5.00 / 14) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:11:12 PM EST
    I have my issues with Obama, but his "supporters" are 100x worse.

    It's unbelievable (5.00 / 15) (#4)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:10:10 PM EST
    And you know what, I hear it from people I know in real life--friends.

    I don't know why Obama inspires this arrogance in people. Maybe it was always there.

    Whenever I hear or read "why are X voters so stupid?" I just blink. That doesn't work as an electoral strategy.

    And jeez, "loyalists in Appalachia"? I never realized how completely useless Frank Rich is.

    And let's try rewriting Rich (5.00 / 12) (#21)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:22:42 PM EST
    in another line, as he would benefit from a friendly editor, if Rich weren't so full of himself, too.

    Of course, he knows that words have connotative meanings.  So he writes of the "same complaint from a Hillary supporter."  Ohhh, those Appalachian women with their female complaints.

    Now, a wise Obama supporter would not be fed by that but would read it as, say, this:

    It was the second time in as many days that I'd heard the same concern from a Hillary supporter.

    Because it's just possible that Clinton backers are concerned for the future of the Democratic Party.  Actually, if they're delegates going to all the trouble to go through the months-long process to become delegates, usually after years-long work for the party, one could consider it a certainty that they care about the party.

    But no, under the bus they go.  To the Female Complaints Department, no doubt.  


    Cx: Make that Todd Beeton, not Rich (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:28:23 PM EST
    Aaargh.  Typing too much today.  But TL is greatly appreciated for giving me something else to type about than today's topic: McCarthyism.  Interesting and timely parallels to behaviors discussed here.

    But no blacklists this time, of course.  Just words and all, but the term no doubt would be deemed racist, like black hole.  So busunderers, we will be.:-)


    jeez amen (5.00 / 11) (#25)
    by DFLer on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:26:00 PM EST
    where the heck does he gets this

    "reassure resistant Clinton loyalists in Appalachia that

    he's not a bogeyman from Madrassaland . . . . . ."

    yeah..the toxic attitude of some Obama loyalists..it seems like they:
    .1. Really do HATE Hillary Clinton.
    .2. Now that they won completely, ie, the takeover of the Dem party, the convention, no VP slot or even consideration for it for HRC....want to just grind Clinton and anyone who expresses support for her, grind them into the ground. They want humilation and completely obsequiousness...nothing less. Get over it and get out.


    Not a bogeyman (5.00 / 11) (#196)
    by daria g on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:29:56 PM EST
    Just a candidate who doesn't seem to want their votes, whose supporters insult them.  Funny they're not won over by those tactics.

    Amazing, isn't it? (5.00 / 15) (#216)
    by Nadai on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:42:32 PM EST
    I mean, I'd have thought that calling Clinton's supporters a bunch of inbred, racist, low information hicks would have had us all coming over to Obama in droves.  And if that didn't do it, then referring to Clinton herself as the "Joan of Arc of the Dry P*ssy Demographic" ought to have done the trick nicely.  I can't imagine what happened.

    It is pretty amazing... (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:58:27 PM EST
    ... do you think they sat around tried to figure out how to act so smuggly superior to people??

    If so, they are doing a heck of a job.  If not, well THAT is just scary!!

    It is Obama supporters all walk around with the attitude that says if you're for us... you're
    cool.  If not, we can dismiss you...


    Goodbye to all that. (5.00 / 15) (#6)
    by Sweet Sue on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:12:25 PM EST
    Choosing Hillary as VP might have caused me to take a second look at Barak Obama. Might have because the way that the DNC gamed the process, Obama's nomination is suspect.
    Now, I cannot imagine a scenario that has me punching the ballot for him.
    Unless there are some really important propositions at stake, I might stay home for the first time.
    Never have I felt so disengaged or so discarded.

    Vote downticket, Sue. (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:17:54 PM EST
    I wish Hillary would address this problem (1.66 / 3) (#38)
    by bridget on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:31:59 PM EST
    with Obama personally. She is doing her v. best to help Obama win this election but doesn't she owe that at the v. least to all the people who voted for her and contributed to her campaign until the v. last election? They stood by her and remain loyal to her. She should show her support, too.

    Am I wrong? It just doesn't seem right to me and when I hear stuff like the above I feel disappointed the way things are developing so far into the election ... and quite annoyed.

    Besides Only Obama can make his followers understand that they may v. well lose the GE for him unless they change their immature attitude ./. the Hillary people. He needs the votes. Every one he can get IMHO.


    She did. Reread her speech (5.00 / 13) (#48)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:35:41 PM EST
    at the end and look for the line about respect for us.  Or buy the t-shirt with the quote.  I love mine.

    Do not blame this, too, on Hillary.  Communication requires a listener at the other end.  Obama's end.


    I don't blame her, Cream City (4.00 / 0) (#69)
    by bridget on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:43:56 PM EST
    I just thought another talk might help.

    It just came to my mind when hearing about the exchange betw. the two delegates.

    I also believe that Obama knows whats going on.

    just saying cause it upsets me :-(


    you can usually tell when a (5.00 / 3) (#158)
    by hellothere on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:17:25 PM EST
    corporation is in trouble. everyone is kissing up and kicking down. not a pretty sight. same in politics in my view.

    It isn't her responsibility. I hope I made that (none / 0) (#131)
    by bridget on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:07:45 PM EST
    clear to everyone now that I agree.

    Okay, I am done with this .... its back to the Olys for me.

    Happy weekend to you all.


    Yes, HE needs the votes, therefore (5.00 / 10) (#84)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:50:14 PM EST
    HE must reach out to Hillary and her voters.  It is not her job to reach out to him.  If he cared about her, and her 18 million voters, he would have tried, long before now, to reach out.  He didn't do anything to reach out to Hillary or her voters.  I certainly understand why they (we) don't want to do anything to help him.  He's an arrogant elitist who thinks he will win the WH without doing anything to convince us to vote for him, much less work for him.  He's lost so many democrat voters and it appears that he doesn't realize that he needs those votes.   \

    Oh well.  Pride goeth before the fall.  


    You are right. Thanks for responding (none / 0) (#100)
    by bridget on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:56:15 PM EST
    I really appreciate your comments :-)

    Thank you! (5.00 / 5) (#130)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:07:24 PM EST
    What a nice thing to say.  At least we are all nice to each other.  

    It just seems so simple to me, it's the candidate's job to reach out and convince voters to vote for him.  It's not rocket science, just Politics 101.  


    While I agree....if obama is as savvy as (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:15:31 PM EST
    he thinks he is, he must know exactly what is going on with many of his followers, who feel the need to denigrate the Hillary supporters.  AND he has as much as said he does not need us....cest la vie.  Hurray...we are off the hook!

    Who's In Charge? (5.00 / 14) (#8)
    by Athena on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:15:36 PM EST
    Very interesting tonight on FOX: Pat Caddell said that he didn't know who really had made Biden the VP choice, that the Daley machine might really be running the Obama operation, and that the press has ignored this story because "they're protecting Obama."

    Also on FOX: Geraldo ranting about the disrespect to Hillary over the VP slot: "I really am pissed."  He asked Howard Wolfson: "If Obama cannot reconcile with Hillary, why should her voters reconcile with him?"  Ouch.

    The Daley machine was behind Camelot... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:21:32 PM EST
    ...the first time around as well.

    Also (5.00 / 10) (#20)
    by Athena on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:22:40 PM EST
    The campaign relocation to Chicago spoke volumes.

    Hey Chicago is a great city. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by DFLer on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:27:09 PM EST
    props to the middle of the country.

    Fun city to visit, except for those (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:31:18 PM EST
    screeching El cars.  The noise level downtown drives me crazy.  But so much to do inside great museums and such.

    Wouldn't live there, though.  I have family members who have done so for decades, and what they have had to spend is something.  One paid thousands over the years to the local beat cop just to be able to park a car.  It's the Chicago Way. :-)


    Yes, a great city known for political corruption (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:52:35 PM EST
    Hey!! I live in Chicago... (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:02:54 PM EST
    ... oh damn, I can't even defend the pols here! :)

    What scares me is that the Trib has been pretty critical of Obama in the last couple of months by calling his "reformer" shtick into question... he has endorsed and been supported by a lot of really slimy pols while he was coming up...  


    More on Chicago (none / 0) (#169)
    by DFLer on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:19:35 PM EST
    absolutely world class museums, art, theatre, universities, libraries, sports teams, home of great American roots music... restaurants ...Strong labor unions...

    I recall a baseball discussion some time ago here. Someone referred to their fav team as "The Sox" ...a Boston fan...I thought, you know you could have given it a color modifier....not the only Sox in MLB...a lot of territory out here between the coasts, y'all!

    Besides, Lake Michigan is almost as good as the ocean. #:o)


    Add: Chicago's symphony orchestra (none / 0) (#184)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:24:32 PM EST
    and Lyric Opera.  Now if only the weather was more mild, both summer and winter.  

    and great hot dogs.... (none / 0) (#93)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:53:41 PM EST
    Where is he getting that? Did he provide (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:33:18 PM EST
    evidence? It's interesting because that's what investigative reporter, Evelyn Pringle, has been saying for months.

    Well, Pat Caddell (none / 0) (#47)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:35:23 PM EST
    would seem to be a perfect fit at Dem-bashing Faux Noose.

    Caddell's picture is about the first one you see in the dictionary when you look up "CDS".  An even worse mouth-breather about things Clinton than even Tweety.  Caddell has turned against Dems since at least the mid-90s.  He has as much credibility talking about Dems these days as that other Faux nutjob, Dick Morris.


    Well, (none / 0) (#164)
    by Ennis on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:18:37 PM EST
    If you heard it on Fox, it must be true.

    Now? (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by Steve M on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:16:35 PM EST
    Always have been!

    I wonder what (5.00 / 7) (#11)
    by lilburro on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:17:27 PM EST
    the post-Hillary convention speech interviews are going to be like.  Are Obama supporters going to moan, or are they actually going to praise her?  Sounds like it's possible they might even boo her.

    But hey, this attitude is coming from up top.  The Obama campaign has made it clear that a) they are not too interested in Hillary and that b) they can get register enough voters to make up for their losses.  I actually think the latter theme hurts them as much as any other; the campaign truly takes it as a given that Clinton supporters won't come around.  

    Hate Hillary all you want, but don't hate her supporters.  Derrr...

    I think that is a real possibility (5.00 / 16) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:22:16 PM EST
    Instead of worrying what the Clintons are going to do, I think the Obama casmp better worry what HIS SUPPORTERS might do at the Convention.

    The dangers of sore winnerism (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:29:08 PM EST
    Isn't it time for Tom Hayden to (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:41:25 PM EST
    write a pre-convention piece to this effect?

    BTD that is so true. I really hate this new (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:29:31 PM EST
    story about the "whip team" or whatever its called that is gonna be at the convention. It makes it seem as if Hill supporters are petulent children. Everyone should (at the convention) show some damn respect for everyone involved. If you believe that Hillary or Barack is the ultimate evil, then you shouldn't be there because your very life would be in danger!  :)

    BTD....you have hit the nail on the head... (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:30:09 PM EST
    Didn't they promise rioting on the streets of Denver if obama was "robbed"?  And, if their behavior on some of the blogs is an indication, be afraid, be very afraid...

    i have read that concern on (5.00 / 0) (#183)
    by hellothere on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:24:31 PM EST
    some other blogs. sometimes things can get out of control. that wouldn't bode well for the election.

    Obama supporters have supported Hillary (1.14 / 7) (#176)
    by Ennis on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:21:47 PM EST
    ever since she threw in the towel.  

    I don't know where people get this stuff that Obama supporters resent Hillary.  We resent die-hard Hillary supporters that don't support her efforts to support Obama/Biden and the Democratic Party.


    please don't spread falsehoods (5.00 / 5) (#186)
    by hellothere on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:25:40 PM EST
    or take us for fools.

    Please don't call me a liar (1.11 / 9) (#227)
    by Ennis on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:57:25 PM EST
    I started the election committed to supporting whoever won the nomination.  I preferred Hillary, but changed my preference to Obama when it became clear to me that Hillary did not have a mathematical chance to win, and was just running on ego and red ink.

    However, if she had run a better campaign and actually won, I'd be happily supporting her tonight.

    It may seem like we on the outside of this pity party are arrogant sore winners to you, but you appear to us to be self-absorbed whiners.  There's no other explanation I can think of for your (plural) behavior.


    "threw in the towel"? (5.00 / 5) (#187)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:26:01 PM EST
    She suspended her campaign.

    I'm sure there will be many stories like this to (5.00 / 22) (#19)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:22:16 PM EST
    come. Heck, even Ed Schultz gets it now...he just praised Hillary on Larry King.

    I went to a family dinner tonight and my late brother's wife was there. She (and he) were my political junkie soul mates. I hadn't seen her since Christmas. She was so upset that a supposedly smart politician would throw away the chance to have a running mate that would bring 18 million votes with her. My brother was the county chairman of our party and she was very active as well. She can't decide whether or not to vote this time (she would never vote for McCain).

    We are in a mess when a loyal Democrat like she is feels this way. She is so mild mannered but she is deeply angry at the media and at our party leadership. Like me, she wonders if our party no longer represents us and wishes we had a good alternative. This isn't about Obama anymore. It's about people like the one Todd saw in Denver.

    Absolutely Teresa.... (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:30:03 PM EST
    these people are delegates for cripes sake not protestors; they are people who have been involved and active in the party for years. Most of the Hillary delegates have probably been to many conventions in the past and never felt like the uninvited guests before.

    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:31:48 PM EST
    They think they don't need Hillary's supporters. Well, Obama knows better. As it happens, Scranton is in Appalachia.

    Does Obama know better? (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:55:07 PM EST
    I have seen no evidence of that.

    It's why they kept talking (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:56:54 PM EST
    about Biden's Scranton roots today.

    More anecdotal evidence: (5.00 / 9) (#41)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:32:32 PM EST
    Young African American rental car guy gives me a ride back home this morning.  He volunteers that his mom, who lives in the Inland Empire of CA, is a Clinton supporter who is quite disappointed Obama didn't choose Clinton for his VP.  She may now vote for McCain.  BTW:  my informant did not sign up to receive Obama text message notification of VP selection.

    Here's another one: (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Grace on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:00:27 PM EST
    At the bank today, I overheard the lady at the window next to me say something about "picking a vice president last night."  She had a frown on her face so I said "Well, I was kind of hoping it would be Hillary."  

    As we were both leaving the windows she said "We were for Hillary and now I don't think we are going to vote."  I laughed and said, "We're voting for McCain now."



    Not really related at all (5.00 / 5) (#126)
    by nell on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:06:44 PM EST
    But, it reminded me of a really interesting experience I had while phone banking for Hillary in PA. I called a man who said that he was voting for Hillary because he had the opportunity to drive her once when she was visiting PA years ago and that she had charmed and impressed him back then. He volunteered that he was African American and that he liked Barack fine and was proud of what he achieved, but that ever since Hillary charmed him that time he has been stuck on her...he said that if she didn't win, he would only vote for Barack if he took her as VP...

    I rode six taxis today (1.00 / 4) (#195)
    by Ennis on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:28:58 PM EST
    And every one of those darn drivers were ecstatic about Biden.

    I like the Biden choice. He and Dodd and (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by WillBFair on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:28:54 PM EST
    the other guy (not Edwards) are vastly knowledgeable. And Obama could use some gravitas on the ticket after he and his supporters were so sleazy in the primary.
    On the other hand, many Americans haven't made the connection between brains and results, and the media have proven they can put anyone they want in the presidency. So he could have chosen anyone. Which reminds me, I have a housplant that might want the job.  

    Again, I bring up the 12th Amendment (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by zfran on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:31:22 PM EST
    to the Constitution of how we elect a veep. We do not do it according to the amendment and I've been wondering why for a long time and cannot seem to get the answer. I even, at one time, emailed larry sabito to see if he could tell me but he never answered. I realize this is modern times, but when did we start electing veeps the way we do?

    12th amendment

    Reason I can't stand talking to my sister... (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by reynwrap582 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:32:18 PM EST
    Every time we have a nice conversation about my niece and nephew, or my sister's photography hobby (which I got her started on), it always ends up inevitably "So are you a huge Obama supporter yet?" or "You'll love him when he's President." or my favorite "Hillary lost, its time to get behind Obama now."  She wonders why I rarely respond when she IMs me.

    I usually counter her usual "What's wrong with Obama?" with "What's so right about him?" where I'm usually treated to a deluge of inaccurate positions and claims about his experience, which just confirms to me that he's such a blank slate that his supporters can fill in the blanks with whatever they personally believe.

    I'll vote downticket for dems, but my presidential vote is going to Cynthia McKinney.

    RE: Cynthia McKinney....so many voters (5.00 / 6) (#75)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:46:37 PM EST
    are disheartened and voting someone other than obama....wouldn't it be something if Cynthia McKinney became the first black president....:)

    LOL, that would be something.. (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:49:13 PM EST
    What I think is funny is that (5.00 / 8) (#141)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:11:33 PM EST
    his supporters don't seem to care what his positions are... they just assume that his position is the exact same as theirs... it is the ultimate form of self love.

    And when they find out that he doesn't agree with them... they just sweep it under the rug... FISA and public financing are two of the most obvious.  And Iraq, immigration and abortion seem like they are slipping away as well.

    IMO of course.


    If I can crawl my bitter, old self to the booth (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Sweet Sue on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:32:55 PM EST
    Okay, derridog.

    Good girl! (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:43:06 PM EST
    Now!?! (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by Robot Porter on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:34:34 PM EST
    Obama's supporters I find are his worst enemies now.

    Haven't they always been?

    Obama (5.00 / 9) (#50)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:36:42 PM EST
    Obama is his worst enemy. His supporters are just the troops. If Obama had shown any respect the supporters wouldn't be so bold and hateful. Of course if Obama had been at all honest, she would be the nominee and the Obama supporters would be praised.

    Expect this to continue... (5.00 / 19) (#57)
    by ricosuave on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:38:41 PM EST
    I went to the Texas Democratic Convention as a Hillary delegate.  Obama had basically clinched it and Hillary was scheduled to give her concession speech during the convention.  Lots of talk about unity and coming together in all of the speeches, but in the actual caucuses there was not a single bone thrown to the Hillary folks.  There was no recognition that the Hillary delegates needed to be on board in November to help win this thing.  Not one person got up and suggested that perhaps the resolutions committee assignment should be tossed to a Hillary person so that they could be included.  They all just went in to the room and voted in unison for the preselected Obama person for each role.  The message was generally "we don't need you."

    Their idea of unity seems to be exactly the same as the Republican idea of bipartisanship: they think it is my responsibility to join them and not their responsibility to give me a reason to do so.  So expect lots of talk about unity at the national convention, but don't expect anyone to actually reach out to Hillary delegates and get them involved.

    At least you made it into (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by zfran on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:42:08 PM EST
    the dem convention in Texas. A friend of mine who had signed up to be Hillary delegate  and her son as well were told when they got to the convention that their names were not on the list, goodbye!

    "We don't need you" (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:58:59 PM EST
    Has consistently been the message of the Obama campaign.  His nose is so high in the air that if it rains, he'll drown.  

    One thing I like about the Biden addition (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Grace on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:40:12 PM EST
    Maybe the Obama campaign will have a little more humor now.  It's sorely lacking.  

    I can see Biden and McCain trading some jabs since they are longtime coworkers and, fortunately, they both have a decent sense of humor.  

    Excellnt point... Obama's campaign (5.00 / 7) (#124)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:05:54 PM EST
    has been pretty humorless.  It would be nice and probably helpful if they could just laugh off and dismiss some of the charges made against them... rather than pretending outrage... or hinting that someone is being a racist.

    They don't seem to have any other tactics. (5.00 / 9) (#149)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:14:41 PM EST
    They are at a loss, if they can't cry racism.  I think they are shocked that McCain got away with calling them on it and got MSM support, since they got away with it against Hillary (and Bill) for months.

    Exactly (5.00 / 6) (#161)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:18:18 PM EST
    I felt like that may have been a turning point in this campaign.  It was the day that Obama had to stop using his race to bludgeon any comments or conversation that was unflattering.

    if you don't support obama (5.00 / 7) (#62)
    by Turkana on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:40:41 PM EST
    you're a racist. from appalachia. i read that on some blog somewhere, too...

    So did Frank Rich, apparently (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:45:04 PM EST
    He doesn't do his own material anymore.

    there's been a radical redefinition (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Turkana on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:47:14 PM EST
    of the word "radical"...

    Sorry, I don't follow (none / 0) (#80)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:48:43 PM EST
    And there are those who say (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by DemForever on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:47:49 PM EST
    that if you support him you're a sexists.  A sad state of affairs.

    I hope you aren't defending what Turkana (5.00 / 0) (#89)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:52:17 PM EST
    was referring to. That really happened. We all know that there are some racists who won't vote for Obama and we all know that sexism was very present in this campaign.

    No I wasn't (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by DemForever on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:54:05 PM EST
    Ok. I'm sorry I implied that. (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:07:20 PM EST
    I think there really was a lot of sexism in this primary, but I don't think that all Obama supporters are sexist. I doubt many are. I wish they had spoken up more when they saw it though, instead of defending people like Olbermann and Shuster.

    Yup (5.00 / 6) (#92)
    by themomcat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:53:27 PM EST
    I was accused of that today because i said that Obama should being doing better in the polls at this point. I was a little stunned at first but my final reaction was to suggest that anger management might help and walked away.

    Heh (5.00 / 11) (#144)
    by nell on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:13:10 PM EST
    I was at a party two weeks ago where politics came up. When I explained that I would not vote for Obama because I had issues with his lack of experience and disagreed with many of his positions, and named a few, such as FISA, such as his questionable comments about mental illness and partial birth abortion, the guy looked at me with a straight face and told me that my problem was that I was looking at Obama only through the prism of race...seriously...

    I was so shocked that my mouth dropped open...and then he went on to explain that the only reason Democrats like me aren't supporting Obama is because we are hung up on his race. When I pointed out the obvious, that my own skin is about the same color as Barack's, the guy went on about how even though he is white, he doesn't look at Barack through the prism of race and I should get over it.

    It was one of the weirdest experiences I have ever had.


    Wow (5.00 / 4) (#173)
    by themomcat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:21:22 PM EST
    I'm a 60 year old white woman. My opponent was a 30 something black male whom i have known and worked with for a number of years. He turned his diatribe into a personal attack against me. I was very disconcerted because it became so personal and rather nasty. I have pretty thick skin but I was stilled bothered by the hostility and denial.

    I had the same experience with a friend. (5.00 / 10) (#222)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:47:21 PM EST
    I don't think this is unusual. When I said I was voting for McCain, she shouted at me, "Whose side are you on!!?" Then she told me, in all seriousness, that I must be racist.

    I told her that telling people they are racist is not a good way to convince them to vote for your guy. I also told her that my boyfriend had registered voters in Mississippi in the 60s and that I had been a Jesse Jackson delegate in 1988 and that was no way that I was a racist.  But she said my racism must be unconscious. We then dropped the subject.

    I guess there is just NO other possible reason for not voting for Obama in the minds of his fervent fans than racism. That's because he is some kind of god to them and so there couldn't be a substantive reason.


    According to Dean, if you are white (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:58:14 PM EST
    you are a Republican. I think you can get a dispensation if you become a strong Obama supporter.

    More hating on Appalachia from pundits.. (5.00 / 3) (#229)
    by daria g on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 11:11:27 PM EST
    Was there a time when liberals and progressives valued all Americans and fought for policies that would benefit all Americans - and didn't demand that they first pass the test of agreeing with us?  I spoke at length with an immediate family member in Appalachia today (that's where I'm from) and yes, there is plenty of racism and it is expressed about Obama.  That is true.  I wish it weren't true but it is true.  But not everyone is like that.  Some of us read and write now.. and growing up in a very small city, the private school I attended had many children of immigrants from all over the world.  I don't think Frank Rich is much of a liberal, but quite a snob.  

    So my questions are, as progressives, what do we do, how do we react to that?  Do we insult people and dismiss their views about how the country should be governed? Do we keep hope alive that things are changing for the better and we'll move beyond racism? I wasn't told the specific comments my relative was hearing but I'm sure they're abhorrent.. but I still believe everyone should have economic opportunity, a good job with benefits, health care.  


    It is not just arrogance - it is a problem (5.00 / 11) (#71)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:45:00 PM EST
    with being totally self-involved.  They have NO clue why or how they are offensive.  No self awareness at all about how they come off to other people.

    I am constantly thinking "please, please stop 'helping'!" when I read some of these people who are trying to "explain" why Dems who aren't convinced about Obama should "get over it" already.

    It is very frustrating.

    I just really want to defeat John McCain.

    I agree these folks really could derail the Obama campaign if they don't adopt a more disciplined approach.

    The thing that makes me more nervous is that they are not a lot who have shown great restraint in not taking bait.  They've been set up and hooked a few times during the course of this campaign already.  They've survived so far, but it is entirely possible that they could take bait that could do real dammage.  That has been troubling me since they first decided that the Clintons were the most racist people they'd ever encountered - they revealed both ignorance and gullibility all in one stroke and they still have no idea that they exposed themselves - and the rest of us by extension.  

    And one other thing... (5.00 / 11) (#111)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:59:21 PM EST
    This race is about ADDING TO the vote total now.

    It is not about reinforcing the choice of what often comes off as a largely insecure bunch of activists.

    We need to add to Obama's vote total.

    You don't do that by insulting everyone who isn't on board yet.

    You don't do that by being so defensive about your own perception of the situation that you make it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone else to want to join your team.

    You add votes by figuring out why there are people on the fence and why some oppose you but probably could join you - why they haven't joined your cause yet.  You figure that out by LISTENING TO THEM.  

    After you really listen - I mean think about who they are and try to place yourself in their shoes - then you start to figure out what might resonate with them and talk to them about it.

    If you have no desire to endeavor to try to understand, then keep your freakin' mouth shut and stop "helping".  Find another way to help.   We all have our respective calling - some people might be better at internal comm - while others more suited for external.

    Thanks for listening.  :)


    My big issue is Obama's experience (5.00 / 4) (#151)
    by Grace on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:15:19 PM EST
    If Biden was running for President with Obama as VP, I probably could hold my nose and vote Democrat just like I have for years and years.  But Obama is at the top of the ticket.  It's great that Biden has tons of experience, but what exactly is he going to do?  Is he going to be the real President like Dick Cheney is?  If Biden is, what's the point of having Obama on the ticket in the first place?

    Things are so screwed up now, after 8 years of Bush, I'm not willing to trust this country with another newbie.  I want someone with experience in control!    


    Wise words (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Steve M on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:22:44 PM EST
    Do you suppose anyone is paying attention?

    Fish in a barrel (5.00 / 8) (#86)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:51:56 PM EST
    I'll let someone else take this.

    Too close to my bed time so I'll pass. (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:55:07 PM EST
    Can't...... (5.00 / 7) (#105)
    by michitucky on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:57:08 PM EST
    Wiping the lemonade off my screen......

    Here's the thing (5.00 / 22) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:52:09 PM EST
    The person in the election, the person who needs votes in November is Obama.

    Clinton needs to placate no one.

    His supporters need to understand that very simple concept.

    You would think (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Steve M on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:56:31 PM EST
    that when you win the nomination, you get to dictate terms, but actually it doesn't work that way.

    Huh? (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:56:40 PM EST
    Can't get past this to figure out whattheheck:

    The only people talking about not accepting either Obama or Clinton are the PUMAs.

    What? (5.00 / 11) (#108)
    by Nadai on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:58:22 PM EST
    There are no Obama fans showing up to protest Clinton's participation.

    No, there's just the DNC and the Obama campaign which tried for months to prevent Clinton from getting a roll call vote and had to "negotiate" whether she would be permitted to speak.  All with the Obama fans on the blogs screaming that the Evil Witch was trying to derail the sainted Obama's coronation by demanding what every losing male candidate had received for the last half century.  Oh no, no "protest" at all.

    I would say go back to harassing TGW, but I'm sure they don't want you back.

    I think the reason we don't hear much (5.00 / 23) (#114)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:00:03 PM EST
    from Obama about coming together as a party is that he truly believes he does not need us to win.  He seems to believe that he can simply replace us with new voters and that his super-duper, way-cool ground game, all those cell numbers, will more than compensate for people he and his surrogates and supporters regard as "dead-enders."

    It's the only thing that explains the arrogant, dismissive, and even adversarial attitude from Obama supporters and surrogates and the total silence from Obama.

    There is nothing else Hillary can do - she's given speeches and made appearances, and at every turn she has emphasized how important it is to come together to elect Obama.  Having given her unqualified support - and it is unqualified, because you have not heard any "as long as" or "if he will do this, then..." or anything that suggests votes should not be unreservedly cast for him - the ball is in Obama's court to lead the party to the unity he claims only he will bring to the country.

    He's not doing it.  He's over Clinton, he's over her supporters, and now it's just about making sure that nothing gets in the way of the media being able to bring America mind-blowing optics that reflect unwavering adoration for and submission to the wave of the future that is Obama.  He will not stand for dissent, he will not stand for messy; by clamping down so hard, he is, in my opinion, asking for trouble.

    I gotta tell ya - after 8 long years of more and more intrusion into my privacy, more control over the media, more control over the message, I'm not feelin' all that warm and fuzzy about a nominee who needs to exert this much control over this process, because once again, it suggests that this is about him, about his ascent to power, and not about us, the people.

    Obama is own worst enemy but (5.00 / 7) (#118)
    by facta non verba on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:01:12 PM EST
    his fan base is a very close second.

    First Amendment applies. (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:06:51 PM EST
    Any further questions?

    Take all the offense you want. (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:08:20 PM EST
    It's a free country.

    Judge by the company kept (5.00 / 7) (#135)
    by nellre on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:08:57 PM EST
    The reason I did not support Obama was because so many of his supporters were nasty, enthralled or both.
    These are the new Democrats.
    I'm not a Democrat anymore... I'm registered Undeclared after over 40 years of being a registered Dem.

    Hey ABG, I commented on people like (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:10:13 PM EST
    you earlier in this thread. You are like some of my friends who stereotype disaffected HC supporters. The people YOU point to are disgusting okay? Now show me a comment or post on THIS website that fit your description. I'm a converted Obama supporter, but you are being unfair and needlessly antogonizing people. AGAIN-MOST "HOLDOUTS" ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE MAN!!!

    And I suppose (5.00 / 6) (#139)
    by Nadai on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:11:25 PM EST
    you can point me to your long long history of posts on Dkos etc. complaining about the disgusting attacks on Clinton during the primary, hmm?  Seems to me that your taking offense is highly selective.

    And since you appear to think that Clinton supporters ought to just suck up those attacks without anger, I suggest you do the same with regard to attacks on Obama.

    Apparently (5.00 / 8) (#145)
    by facta non verba on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:13:17 PM EST
    you've never heard of free speech. Ms. Ferraro is entitled to her opinion. So am I. And I find Senator Obama repugnant.

    It's too late. The damage has been done. Senator Obama and the Democratic Party chose their course. Now suffer the consequences.

    I am not so naive as to think that McCain will solve the country's problems but Obama won't either. In fact, his inexperience is liable to make things worse. He is simply not qualified to be President. I'll vote for McCain and hope for the best come 2012.

    Ahem, (5.00 / 5) (#150)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:15:02 PM EST
    You may have heard a whooshing sound over your head. That was the point flying over you.

    it has been addressed (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:15:44 PM EST
    the guy who wrote this post has said the PUMAs are nuts.

    that kind of rhetoric -- in so far as it exists on no quarter --  has existed on a certain obamablog for the last 8 years.  just about other democrats.  which i guess is OK when it's about other dems.

    it is what it is.  it's whole new world now.  very transformational.  i'm interested in your desire to have more people speak out against nasty divisive rhetoric.

    but i wouldn't see much value in it if it's only about barack obama and you yourself support the kinds of things that are said about the clintons on places like dailykos.

    Well, thanks for telling me (5.00 / 14) (#159)
    by dk on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:17:35 PM EST
    what I "should" do as a progressive.  

    Oh, and nice touch on comparing gays to terrorists in your comment above.  I am likely not voting for Obama (will probably vote for McKinney).  It saddens me that for the first time in my 20 years of voting, I will not in good faith be able to vote for the Democrats this year.  But one thing that will make me happy is that I am not voting for the person that someone with your views on gay people is voting for.

    Maybe every time an Obama supporter alienates a Clinton supporter, an angel gets its wings?  

    Heaven (5.00 / 7) (#188)
    by Nadai on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:26:07 PM EST
    must be full, then.  :)

    I watched the speeches today (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by Grace on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:17:53 PM EST
    and I was reminded that politics is show business for unattractive people.  

    Have you ever seen better acting in your life?  I had no clue that Biden could be such a great actor.  I could hear the passion in his voice.  It was just great!  ;-)

    I'm sure it was easy for him.... (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:19:46 PM EST
    ...he was excited and he was being cheered. That might be old hat for Obama, but for Biden I'm sure it was quite a thrill.

    The answer is simple (5.00 / 15) (#162)
    by Nadai on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:18:31 PM EST
    I'm out.  The day the DNC stole 4 of Clinton's delegates in Michigan, I downloaded my state's Board of Election form for changing my Party affiliation.  As did both of my parents and one of my sisters.  They're all voting for McCain.  I'm still on the fence about that.

    Happy now?

    Ummm.... (5.00 / 17) (#167)
    by nell on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:19:10 PM EST
    And as a woman, I saw Obama supporters trample on my dream, on my mother's dream, over, and over, and over again. I saw Obama's campaign imply that Hillary and Bill Clinton are racists, while Obama himself made disgusting sexist comments about Hillary periodically feeling down, her claws coming out, and her doing nothing more with her life than drinking tea with foreign leaders.

    I feel that Obama and his campaign behaved DISGUSTINGLY towards Hillary and I feel that with the complicit Clinton hating media, they have trampled on my dreams.

    So what do you say to me? I am angry. You don't have to like it, I don't especially care, but stop acting like Clinton supporters owe you and Barack Obama something.

    If he wants our votes, he can earn them. And until then, we will protest if we want to.

    Apparently you anger (5.00 / 17) (#175)
    by Jjc2008 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:21:37 PM EST
    has fogged your thinking:
    Here's a clue. YOUR guy won the primary.  HE needs my vote, her vote, all the voters' votes.  Hillary did not win.  She does not need votes.  

    This is the way it works.  Voters own their votes.  The candidates (not their opponents that lost and are not candidates) have the job (if they want to win) of convincing those alienated, left out, other voters that they are welcomed.  It is NOT the other way around.  

    PUMAs or right wing extremists should be off the radar.   YOUR GUY won.  Now he has 18 million people to convince that he is the one the rest of us should give our vote to.....
    Do you honestly think you help him, or his campaign helps him by whining "Yea but there are these other people who are mean....."  
    It doesn't matter.
    Senator Obama and his campaign are supposed to be the ones welcoming us.  We have nothing to welcome you to.....

    One more time (5.00 / 6) (#177)
    by Jjc2008 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:22:38 PM EST
    SUCK IT UP....

    It is OBAMA, not Hillary, who needs votes.  Your focus is in the wrong place.

    Obama (5.00 / 5) (#179)
    by facta non verba on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:23:26 PM EST
    is the problem. I loathe him as an individual. He's an empty suit, a parody.

    McCain has made this election a referendum on Obama and you'll find that country is not that enthused about the very junior Senator from Illinois.

    Two polls out tonight are brutal, Obama is down across the South, trailing now even in Virginia. In Indiana where Obama led by two, McCain now leads by six. The Obama campaign curtailed its ad buys in red states to focus on holding the line in the battleground states. What does that tell you?

    Get over it. Obama is sinking fast.

    Actually (5.00 / 19) (#180)
    by nell on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:23:33 PM EST
    The only person who is responsible for Barack Obama's win or loss is Barack Obama. It is squarely on his shoulders to earn the votes. I hate how Obama supporters always try to pass the blame - it's never Obama's fault - it's Hillary's fault, or the fault of voters, but never his fault.

    If he loses, perhaps he should consider the fact that he should have been working to win more votes instead of surfing in Hawaii, or perhaps he should not have lied about putting Hillary Clinton on the short lost, or maybe he should not have voted for FISA.

    If he wins, it is his victory. If he loses, it his defeat.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by nell on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:25:17 PM EST
    Rush Limbaugh is full of crap. But so is Keith Olbermann, why don't you talk about the lefty blogs presenting Keith Olbermann as someone who has credibility...Keith Olbermann is no better than discredited fools like Rush and O'Reilly. When you bash him Olbermann too, perhaps you can be taken more seriously.

    If/When McCain wins (5.00 / 10) (#192)
    by Nadai on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:27:54 PM EST
    the blame will rest with the DNC for putting up yet another lousy candidate that even Democrats won't vote for.

    Stepping up to what? (5.00 / 6) (#193)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:28:10 PM EST
    Next thing you'll be telling me I can't bash Howard Dean or Donna Brazille.

    Again (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:28:57 PM EST
    I see no value in you speaking out against divisive rhetoric if it's only about Obama not a real sort of agenda that you'd pursue beyond that.

    Courting the voters (5.00 / 11) (#201)
    by Notyoursweetie 0 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:31:15 PM EST
    Whatever happened to the notion that a candidate needs to earn his votes? Even W was pretending to be humble and trying his best to pander...
    After the "clinching" I was convinced I would be pandered to by both candidates. To my surprise, only McCain made the effort.
    Obama just declared to a group of congress people that it was time "to get over it" - my favorite words from the election thieves in 2000.
    So, while McCain is campaigning, Obama is merely preening for cameras. Like W, he doesn't really care what we think.
    W had Diebold to help him with the lack of voters. What is Obama counting on? (besides big money and friendly media)

    No, you were comparing it. (5.00 / 7) (#210)
    by dk on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:38:15 PM EST
    You are saying that accusing Obama of being gay is on par with accusing Obama of being a terrorist.  There are three points here.

    One is that no post on the Confluence has ever even come close to accusing Obama of being a terrorist.  

    The second is that no post on the Confluence has ever even come close to making the claim that Obama is gay.

    The third is that you seem to imply being accused of being a terrorist is comparable to being "accused" of being gay.  That is homophobic.  Given Obama's use of McClurkin to gay-bait to win votes, I'm not surprised you are a big Obama supporter.  As a gay man, I'm not playing that game. I'll go elsewhere.

    Are You Living (5.00 / 2) (#211)
    by dissenter on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:38:52 PM EST
    in a parallel universe? Is that really a serious question? Have you watched what has gone on this election season? Why is it when people don't agree with Obama they are automatically racists? Exactly where is there racism?

    Huh? (5.00 / 10) (#218)
    by Grace on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:43:47 PM EST
    When Geraldine Ferraro is on Foxnews attacking Obama I have a problem.

    Geraldine Ferraro was labeled a racist by his campaign and his supporters for stating a fact.  When people do things like that, you have to deal with the fallout, so just deal with it.  

    Isn't that what the Obama supporters have been telling the Clinton supporters all this time?  "Deal with it"?  "Get over it"?    


    I was familiar with a lot of those posters.... (5.00 / 6) (#219)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:44:18 PM EST
    ...from Daily Kos and to be perfectly honest with you its hard to avoid talking about race when you are talking about this campaign and that is the result of painting the Clintons with the racist brush. I realize it may be hard for you to understand this coming from your perspective, but that accusation really, really stung. My personal feeling is that it will have to be addressed if the rift is to be heeled. I feel like I am standing in the middle as someone who is neither black or white and I see both sides. The people on No Quarter, however, cross the line. I could never post there or at any of the other places that make racial digs against Obama.

    It's a tough one. I don't have answers, I'm afraid. And, for the record, I am not a PUMA. I just understand where many of them are coming from.

    Why is it that every time the (5.00 / 11) (#224)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:49:25 PM EST
    Obama supporters get something they want - in this case, not-Hillary for VP - they start showing up in droves to whine and push untruths and act as if the world owes them something more?

    In Frank Rich's opinion, anyone (5.00 / 2) (#231)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 11:13:11 PM EST
    over 50 is McCain's base:

    For all the political press's hype, only some 5.5 million viewers tuned in to the Rev. Rick Warren's show in Orange County, Calif. Roughly three-quarters of them were over 50 -- in other words, the McCain base.

    Totally misplaced aggression (5.00 / 6) (#233)
    by katiebird on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 11:18:51 PM EST
    BTD, please delete this if you must.

    But, The Confluence has never participated in that sort of discussion.  In fact, we've deleted thousands if trollish comments making those sorts accusations.

    The OFB need to get over it (5.00 / 5) (#234)
    by lambert on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 11:59:06 PM EST
    If half of Hillary's supporters go to McCain, for whatever reason, Obama loses.

    Therefore, like it or not, they have the power.

    The OFB need to figure that out, and deal.

    Right now, they're not doing a very good job.

    it starts at the top BTD. (5.00 / 4) (#239)
    by cpinva on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 06:52:27 AM EST
    It is this arrogance that could sink Obama's campaign. Obama's supporters I find are his worst enemies now.

    sen. obama, by his failure to quickly stomp out this attitude, among his supporters, early on in the primary process, tacitly endorsed it

    his continued failure to bluntly, publicly, in no uncertain terms, address it, results in the (very reasonable) assumption that he continues to tacitly endorse it.

    he has failed his first major test, as the party's putative leader: he's not gotten everyone on board with the program. that's his responsibility alone, not anyone else's.

    his campaign, for the general election, starts in a hole. i just don't see it working its way out.

    The supporters always were (5.00 / 5) (#240)
    by joanneleon on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 07:23:37 AM EST
    his worst enemies.

    They reflect Obama's arrogance and at the same time they reflect his insecurities.

    I agree that there is a very strong possibility that he could lose this election because of attitudes.  They are the sorest winners I've ever seen.  Worse than that, I see a pattern of abuse from some of the most vocal supporters.  I'm very familiar with serial abusers.  These supporters, even though they've gotten everything they wanted, still feel the need to denigrate and humiliate Hillary Clinton and anyone loyal to her.  After watching the way the official Obama campaign handled the VP selection and rollout, I am beginning to suspect that this abusive attitude comes from the top.

    Despite the fact that she is campaigning vigorously for Obama, which is more than I can say would have occurred had the shoe been on the other foot, they clamor for more from her.  

    While I may find it impossible to pull the lever for McCain, many of my friends are so incensed by this behavior and by the unfair treatment of Hillary by the Obama campaign, that they refuse to vote for him, and are considering the unthinkable as a way to vote against him.

    Put Biden at the top (4.80 / 5) (#191)
    by nell on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:27:51 PM EST
    of the ticket, and I will vote for it. He wasn't my first choice, but I can hold my nose in the interest of electing a Democrat. You know why? Because Biden is actually qualified for the job and has a record of service to this country. I can trust that I know what he will do because he has a record. Part time work in the IL state senate does not impress me, especially when he accomplished little there. I do not want to turn the White House over to someone who may end up like carter and destroy the progressive movement for decades.

    As Mary Shelley warned us (4.73 / 19) (#198)
    by dianem on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:30:33 PM EST
    ... it's a lot easier to create a monster than it is to control it once it's been created. Axelrod should have read a bit more fiction. He won the primary by making people hate Clinton. He gambled that Bush hatred would convince enough Clinton supporter's to vote for Obama even after he slandered somebody they admire. I don't think he completely realized what he had created, though. I think he thought he could control the anger he incited, use it to inspire Obama's base to donate money and GOTV. I don't think he realized the level of hatred many on the left are capable of, or the intensity with which they express it.  

    The progressive Obama supporting netroots collectively lost it's mind.  They've slipped into an authoritarian stupor, but they follow their own leaders - not Axelrod. They, or at least many of them, actually believe that Clinton is evil, that anybody who supports her is a racist or a traitor to the Democratic Party.

    Where did McCain finsih (2.00 / 1) (#70)
    by DemForever on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:44:34 PM EST
    in his class?

    Who cares, we are speaking about (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:48:30 PM EST

    Winston Churchill was (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:53:00 PM EST
    last in his class.

    So Biden should be fine (2.00 / 0) (#99)
    by DemForever on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:55:42 PM EST
    And so should McCain. (5.00 / 0) (#104)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:56:56 PM EST
    Well, the one thing Winston (none / 0) (#134)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:08:38 PM EST
    and Biden have in common is that speech defect in their youth/early adulthood.

    In many ways (none / 0) (#138)
    by DemForever on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:10:49 PM EST
    Churchill was the most important figure of he 20th century.  He led a remarkable life.

    Churchill graduated 8th (none / 0) (#128)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:07:19 PM EST
    out of a class of 150 at Sandhurst Military Academy.

    McCain graduated 894 out of 899, the bottom 1%, in his class at Annapolis.


    But he still went to Annapolis! (5.00 / 0) (#154)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:16:24 PM EST
    I am not sure how you guys feel about it, but, for me, I think that the "dumbest" person at Annapolis is a pretty smart person.

    Not trying to be a McCain cheerleader, but I am always impressed by the Midshipmen/women I have met.


    Well, from what I understand, McCain was a (none / 0) (#197)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:29:59 PM EST
    rebellious kid, always breaking the rules.  I don't know that his going to Annapolis was the result of his being smart and having great grades  to get in, though. It probably was the result of his having a very prestigious military father and grandfather and  being a legacy.

    Nevertheless, I've known people who were great in school who never accomplished much and vice versa.  And, while breaking the rules is not usually a wise approach when you are in school, it often stands you in good stead in real  life.  Keeps you from accepting conventional wisdom.   But,  whatever. My point is that  I don't think anyone's school ranking is an absolutely accurate predictor of  future life, luckily for many people. I think this is true for either Biden or McCain.


    Well, that's later in life. When he was a kid, he (none / 0) (#163)
    by derridog on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:18:37 PM EST
    apparently hated school and had problems in it. I know this because I read his autobiography to my seven year old son (lots of fighting whirling dervishes and escaping from Boer prisons to keep interest in even a little one).  I read it to him because my boy was severely ADD and had a lot of trouble in school.

    Why should one's support of Obama (1.50 / 6) (#13)
    by neoliberal on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:18:12 PM EST
    be related in anyway to how you are treated by people who happen to support him? It'd be as silly as deciding not to support Hillary because the folks over at No Quarter are a bunch of nuts.

    Interestingly (5.00 / 18) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:20:50 PM EST
    Your approach is to question how other people make their voting decisions instead of trying to win their vote.

    Your comment is emblematic of EXACTLY what I am talking about.


    What should I or Obama do? (2.00 / 3) (#22)
    by neoliberal on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:23:31 PM EST
    Have frank Rich fired? If people wish to vote based on something which Obama has absolutely no control over, then it is out of his hands.

    How about (5.00 / 11) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:25:22 PM EST
    you try and win some votes? Your comment is what I referred to, NOT Rich's column.

    YOUR behavior is what I am criticizing in my comment, not Frank Rich. Look in the mirror.


    Because it's a test of a leader (5.00 / 14) (#55)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:38:16 PM EST
    to see how well he leads his followers, at least.  A true leader makes the rest of us better people.

    Another kind of leader is just someone with followers.


    Human nature that you equate (5.00 / 9) (#58)
    by Xanthe on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:39:12 PM EST
    the constant meanness and rudeness on the blogs to nonObama supporters to their candidate - why would you not?  Also, these people crucified HRC and in turn, her supporters. And Bill Clinton as well.  I often thought:  If I were a visitor from another planet.  "OMG, how did these posters survive Clinton's two terms - it's amazing when you think of the horrors they related as to that time.  So scarred - poor things. and yet...they have hope."

    This issue is not going away - it's too bad there is a widening split in the party.  

    Myself - I'm not that cerebral or noble to ignore that treatment.  flesh and warm blooded and have to work hard to shake off grudges - and the only reason I do that is because it's better for my own health - spiritual and physical.

    One could say that No Quarter for instance arose because of nonreporting of Obama, save praise.
     I'm surprised you call it silly.  It's quite serious really.


    LOL.... (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:47:42 PM EST
    ...So good its worth repeating:

    "OMG, how did these posters survive Clinton's two terms - it's amazing when you think of the horrors they related as to that time.  So scarred - poor things. and yet...they have hope."

    speaking for myself (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:54:10 PM EST
    i believe obama himself has played along -- i ca reference some key moments -- and basically remains sitting quietly in the church of obama while the throng spews incoherent rants about everyone who offers the slightest criticism.

    stands to reason i guess.

    but eventually it rises to the surface, and then he has to give a big speech about unity.

    some see a disconnect between action and talk here.

    He does give good speeches.


    That;s funny (1.28 / 7) (#190)
    by Ennis on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:27:31 PM EST
    We would say, "Our guy won. You get over it."

     We're the ones that are moving forward with Hillary and the Democratic Party.  Seriously, what are you (plural) doing now that is productive for the nation and future generations?

    With all due respect, it seems to be more about "me" (you) than concern for the country.

    Seriously. (5.00 / 17) (#226)
    by tree on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:50:36 PM EST
    Do you really think that making inane blast-fax worthy comments and insulting other commenters is being "productive for the nation and future generations"? What a low threshold you allow yourself.

    And cut the "with all due respect" line. You don't have the ability to pull it off without eliciting a huge laugh.

    Your guy won the primary. I'm totally over it. In case you don't understand this,  let me be the first to tell you that the general is yet to come. If you want to win that one the smart strategy is not to insult people that could possibly help you win the election. Democratic voters who didn't vote for "your guy" are not eliminated from voting in the general, nor are they required by law or tradition to vote for "your guy" now. If you really want to convince them to do so, "get over it" is not a winning ploy. If you don't care fine,  but in that case, I hope you will follow your own advice come the first Wednesday in November and "get over it".  


    Umm, she lost. (1.00 / 3) (#237)
    by dogooder on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 06:11:56 AM EST
    Please get over it.

    Actually, after checking on Biden's (none / 0) (#74)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:46:12 PM EST
    votes in the Senate and his pro-choice stance and listening to his remarks today, I think he is a good choice for the Obama ticket.  

    You're kidding about Biden's (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by dk on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 09:57:56 PM EST
    pro-choice stance, right?  Read Melissa over at Shakesville about Biden's less than stellar record on women's reproductive freedom.

    Actually, I'm not kidding, but (none / 0) (#116)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:00:40 PM EST
    perhaps you'll provide a link.  

    Melissa has the links (none / 0) (#123)
    by dk on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:05:10 PM EST
    in this post.

    Here (none / 0) (#125)
    by Nadai on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:05:57 PM EST

    There's more about Biden on the main page.


    Just to correct the record (none / 0) (#157)
    by talesoftwokitties on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:17:20 PM EST
    It's Syracuse University.

    They may drive away some (none / 0) (#171)
    by Lahdee on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:20:05 PM EST
    Democrats and if it reaches critical mass a win could slip away. As a frantic Obama scrambles to register anyone with a pulse they will lash out? Were the election lost would they remain or might they tire of politics and move on to capitol gains and high yield bonds? And as Obama stands alone in the ashes will they'll mock him?

    Comments close at 200 (none / 0) (#230)
    by waldenpond on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 11:11:53 PM EST

    Cheney found a way to be president (none / 0) (#232)
    by Prabhata on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 11:16:34 PM EST
    Will the voters do fall for the same trap, whereby the president is so inexperienced that the VP becomes the true president? I didn't fall for that game in 2000, 2004 and certainly not in 2008.  McCain looks better everyday.

    What are the issues? (none / 0) (#235)
    by fullcircle on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 12:09:57 AM EST
    I just keep hearing how Obama should try to attract or appease Hillary or Hillary supporters. How Obama supporters are arrogant and unwilling to reach out to the Hillary people. Why are Hillary and the Hillary people so separate? Shouldn't Obama be reaching out to the Edwards people, the independents, the Conservative Democrats, etc? What exactly are the issues that separate the Hillary people from all the other potential voters, BESIDES how he treats Hillary?

    They ran, Hillary lost, Edwards lost, Kucinich lost, Obama won. Obama needs all the voters he can get. After reading comments like, "I MIGHT have looked at him again if he tapped Hillary as VP but since he  didn't I can't imagine anything that would make me vote for him", I still can't find the issues that are the stopping block. Is this an issue based problem or is it just bitterness?

    My point about Annapolis (none / 0) (#236)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 12:14:23 AM EST
    really wasn't how McCain got there (because I agree with you that it likely had every thing to do with being one of the Navy's first families) but more that he was able to make it through.

    The analogy of it being like other top-rated schools is inaccurate, for example you could go to an Ivy and not live up to your potential.  But at one of the service academies, they toss you out if you don't pass muster.  Even the son's of Admirals.

    Anyway, I do have a lot of respect for those kids.  Even if I don't agree with their politics.

    I thought the Obama Supporter's Remark was Funny (none / 0) (#238)
    by Amaliada on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 06:27:44 AM EST
    It may be unfortunate that the person's comments were misunderstood, but from reading the comments here, I think that any comment would be misunderstood.

    What would be the collective response here if the person had said "Welcome to Denver"?  I think it would be more of the arrogant tripe I'm frankly getting tired of.

    I'll be glad when the election is over and we'll see who is still talking to whom.

    Did you know that John McCain... (none / 0) (#241)
    by steviez314 on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 07:53:24 AM EST
    voted against funding programs for the early detection of breast cancer?

    Is that an issue that should matter to women more than what an Obama supporter says in a shuttle bus?

    Women who vote for McCain despite disagreeing with every one of his policies do themselves and their daughters more harm than any sexist remark could do.

    Oh (none / 0) (#242)
    by Bluesage on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 01:35:57 PM EST
    "Oh, they're letting you in here, are they?"

    THAT is exactly why Obama will lose in November.
    There is no way at this point to erase his arrogance and his supporters stupidity regarding Hillary Clinton.  Who ARE these damn people?