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Is Kaine a Smokescreen for Kathleen Sebelius?

I just spent two hours writing up a theory that came to me at midnight. The gist is that Sen. Barack Obama, by leaking to the mainstream media that Hillary is not on his shortlist while not discouraging talk about Virgina Gov. Tim Kaine, is manipulating a planned succession of leaks.

Obama has hit his truth in advertising wall: He's got to show he's the progressive candidate for real change because that is how he sold himself to American voters. He's committed to expending untold sums of money to go after unregistered voters in the swing states -- the young, minorities and others who firmly believe he represents change. If his VP choice doesn't also embody change from politics as usual in Washington, he becomes reduced to spouting just words about change, which in turn gives him an electability problem. [More...]

The young might believe he's a sellout, pointing to FISA. The elderly, with enough uncertainty in their lives as to their final years,will have more important things to worry about than deciding between two same-olds, one of whom came out of nowhere. That's leaves Obama's path very clear. He's been working on it for year and I as wrote earlier, it will be on full display in Denver. He's going after unregistered voters, the disaffected among us, because Obama is banking on them buying into his grand plan to have them enter the Big Tent as invited guests.

For reasons I'll describe in my next post, which may or may be finalized tomorrow, Tim Kaine doens't fit the mold. Either does Evan Bayh. Joe Biden kills it. Kathleen Sebelius could be his key.

I've broken down the analysis but it needs fine-tuning and I need to add source links before I go public on it. Right now, my money is on Sebelius. I'd love to hear your thoughts on Sebelius.

< More Signs Hillary Won't Be the VP Candidate | Thursday Morning Open Thread >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Fabulous (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:28:08 AM EST
    He picks a woman who won't attract Hillary's voters and who possibly will repell people who don't want a female VP.  Good move.  

    Since the goal is to purge Hillary supporters... (5.00 / 6) (#19)
    by lambertstrether on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:44:29 AM EST
    ... and this is an excellent way to do that, I'd say, Jeralyn, that this is spot on!

    (Purge for two reasons:

    1. At the party level, as a pure consolidation of power move.

    2. At the voter level, Hillary's voters have fewer campaign contributions to make, and also want more from government. They're a low-performing division, exactly the kind that you shed in a hostile takeover.


    [ Parent ]
    Ha!!!!!! (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by TheJoker on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:52:18 AM EST
    If Obama picks Sebelius, Jesse Jackson is gonna need  
    a MUCH, MUCH bigger blade to cut off O's man-parts!!

    [ Parent ]
    LOL! And so true Joker!!!! (none / 0) (#99)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:12:47 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I think Sebelius is a good choice. (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by TomP on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:34:04 AM EST
    She fought Big Coal and is more progressive than the others names we've heard.

    I find it incredibly offensive that she is attacked because of her gender by some.

    Hillary Clinton fought that glass ceiling for all women, not just herself.  If a women is nominated VP, it's a good thing.  It's even better if she is relatively progressive.

    I'll take Sebelius over Bayh or Kaine or some of the others.    

    [ Parent ]

    Then She Won't Get ... (none / 0) (#141)
    by santarita on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:36:32 AM EST
    the nod.  Obama likes the coal industry.

    [ Parent ]
    and no way (none / 0) (#4)
    by Chisoxy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:22:32 AM EST
    is it not seen as trying to appease Hillary hold-outs by, at the very least, the Hillary hold-outs.

    [ Parent ]
    Sebelius (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:49:49 AM EST
    I've seen variations of this theory before. I'm not a huge fan of Kathleen Sebelius, mainly for her economic policies, but I don't think she's the worst choice that he could make.

    Here's something I HAVE been seeing a lot of that makes me sad, though. People judging Sebelius on her "not-HRC" quality. I've seen countless comments about Sebelius being a slap in the face to women, or not the most qualified woman... basically that she's second tier. And as a result, I've seen some hissing and judging towards Sebelius just because she supports Obama.

    However, she has a fairly progressive record, and is a genuinely likable and strong person. I hope people judge Kathleen Sebelius as Kathleen Sebelius, not as "Kathleen-Sebelius-not-Hillary-Clinton"

    If things were reversed (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:27:37 AM EST
    should an AA have any concerns about hypothetical candidate Clinton choosing an AA veep who wasn't Barack Obama?

    [ Parent ]
    Mm. (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:36:41 AM EST
    My personal philosophy on it is that if there were a candidate that better helped or meshed with Clinton, and they happened to be an AA not named Barack Obama, then she should pick her.

    Kathleen Sebelius has been a very powerful voice for abortion rights for women, and for the advancement of wind power, a couple of certainly progressive lines. Her achievements should in no way be discounted simply because her name isn't Hillary Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    well then (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:49:28 AM EST
    If they pick her, they should advertise those achievements and there probably won't be much of a problem.

    You see it's not just that her name wouldn't be Clinton it's avoiding the implication that Clinton was supported only because she was a woman and that by choosing a woman one has solved a problem with women.

    But again, stick to records, issues, and acidvements and I don't foresee much if a problem here.  I've been wanting team Obama to focus on those sorts of things for a long time now.

    [ Parent ]

    I look forward to (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:48:49 AM EST
    Sebelius' run for the White House then.
    Her achievements should in no way be discounted simply because her name isn't Hillary Clinton.

    If she's got the cred, if she's got the chops, if she's got what it takes - let her run!

    Heck, I look forward to each and every presidential election including a strong female contender.  Democrat and Republican.  Let's see all these highly qualified women, if there are so many of them.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:06:12 AM EST
    And I do think she could stand alone in 8 years. I haven't known a lot about her, but upon doing some research, I like what I see on social and foreign issues. Economics is a little shaky for me. She is a strong woman, though--a woman I think HRC would be proud of.

    Sebelius vs. Clinton in 2016 would be near-abouts epic. I would love to see that battle.

    [ Parent ]

    hmmmm (none / 0) (#52)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:23:59 AM EST
    Well, if Obama really wanted to be Bold, Historic and Tripartisan there's always Cynthia McKinney, currently of the Green Party.

    Speaking of female contenders....

    [ Parent ]

    Could you imagine (none / 0) (#84)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:57:44 AM EST
    Sebelius v. Clinton in a 2016 primary?  Can the DNC?

    [ Parent ]
    Can the DNC? (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:40:32 AM EST
    I'm in favor of canning the DNC!

    [ Parent ]
    Now that would be very interesting lilburro. (none / 0) (#97)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:09:26 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Most important question.... (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:44:03 AM EST
    Is Sebelius ready to be POTUS?  Now?  Ever?

    She may spout progressive policies, but what credentials would she bring that would let her be POTUS if the need arose?  She would bore world leaders to sleep.

    [ Parent ]

    VP debates (none / 0) (#139)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:35:40 AM EST
    A VP possibility has to survive debates.  If McCain picks a woman to even out the impact of Obama picking a woman.... Palin or Hutchison up against Sebelius?  I am trying to picture her up against the other options for McCain.  I don't know, can they train her up in time so she won't come across as dull?  You got it or you don't.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain/Palin (none / 0) (#147)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:46:47 AM EST
    would be a death blow to the Obama campaign I fear.

    [ Parent ]
    VP debates...oh, gawd... (none / 0) (#150)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:49:44 AM EST
    ...she seems like the female equivalent of Bayh.

    Tedious.

    [ Parent ]

    RE boring world leaders to sleep... (none / 0) (#145)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:42:42 AM EST
    ...she put this committed Democratic activist to sleep as I tried to watch her televised response for the Democrats to the President's message last year.

    Dull, dull, dull.  Beyond dull.

    She certainly won't steal the spotlight from the anointed.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, Dalton, you've probably hit on the (5.00 / 10) (#36)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:54:24 AM EST
    exact argument that the Obama campaign will use to shame Hillary supporters into accepting Sebelius - that it isn't fair to be opposed to Sebelius just because she isn't Clinton.  It won't matter if we argue that in a side-by-side comparison, Hillary comes out on top - and that it makes no sense to pass on Clinton when she is clearly available for the job.  No matter what we say, no matter the laundry list of accomplishments we can cite, we will be caught in a web of, and will be accused of, the gender equivalent of race-baiting against Sebelius - and I have to tell you that when I feel like I am being manipulated like that, I don't go along, I go away.

    It's amazing to me that the man who claims to want to bring people together is using the most divisive and manipulative and dishonest tactics to do it - tactics that are creating a veneer of "unity" that is so thin and so fragile that when it finally breaks, it is going to be as ugly and as irreparable as anything I have ever seen or experienced in my almost-55 years.

    In his zeal to make history, I wonder if Obama realizes that his tactics will diminish that history because of the backward direction he seems to be taking us on so many areas where progress was being made?


    [ Parent ]

    I hope that's not his (5.00 / 6) (#41)
    by ccpup on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:08:38 AM EST
    campaign strategy.  You know, vote for me (or you'll be considered racist) and support my VP pick (or you'll be considered sexist).

    Something tells me it might be, though.  At this late date, I STILL don't know what he stands for other than being the First African-American President and making History.

    Everything else is a waffle.

    [ Parent ]

    Everytime I think they won't (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:12:29 AM EST
    They do.

    Yes.  If they choose Sebelius, they'll exploit sexism too.

    It's really the only way they know how to campaign.


    [ Parent ]

    how embarrassing (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by ccpup on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:36:10 AM EST
    will it be if voters begin to see McCain -- you know, the one who's supposedly on the doorstep of senility or something -- as more policy oriented and Issue driven than the infuriatingly foggy Dem candidate.

    If Obama is seriously considering attempting to guilt people into voting for him, what will that say about our Party and the strength of our Nominee?

    It's a disaster waiting to happen as I suspect voters actually can be more issue oriented and open-minded than Obama gives them credit for, but they won't appreciate that people don't appreciate either being taken for granted or overtly manipulated or lied to and, in response, will vote for the one who actually knows what he (or she) is doing.

    [ Parent ]

    It's all they got (5.00 / 4) (#78)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:52:55 AM EST
    For anyone not already converted or so desperate because of Republican incompetence, the only thing they have left is guilt and to call into question the moral character of anyone who doesn't go ga-ga for Obama.

    That's the problem when you support a media driven politician with no record to stand on.

    Yes.  I am firmly convinced that if I believe Clinton was more qualified to be VP than Sebelius, the second they choose Sebelius I will be attacked as sexist for continuing to express that opinion.

    [ Parent ]

    Guilt-tripping voters... (4.00 / 4) (#154)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:54:19 AM EST
    Well, it certainly got him 90% of the AA vote.  And a good chunk of liberal white votes in primaries as well, from my observation at the caucuses here.

    It won't get my vote.

    [ Parent ]

    the AA community (5.00 / 3) (#172)
    by ccpup on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:18:16 AM EST
    voted their pride and celebrated their collective journey with their support of him, which it perfectly understandable.

    At the end of the day, though, Obama was losing votes in many of the Primaries after February (save for the AA vote), so I do strongly suspect there was an element of buyer's remorse, of broadcasting loudly and clearly that "we" -- the collective We of Dem Voters -- had changed their minds.  But it was hard to be heard over the hoped for ringing of cash registers in the DNC's ear.

    Therefore, the "guilting" of voters into voting for him didn't work.  And I don't believe it will in the General either.

    [ Parent ]

    John Lewis? (5.00 / 3) (#206)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:41:17 PM EST
    I do NOT think he 'voted his pride' or 'celebrated a collective journey'...he was strongarmed and threatened...and primaried.

    Nice.  And he wasn't the only one.  Last thing he wanted to do was join the people who trashed the Clintons...with racism, yet...

    And some people said the Clintons were the people who would say or do anything to win.

    Meet the new champs of ruthless.

    [ Parent ]

    Yup (5.00 / 6) (#106)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:26:16 AM EST
    If it's Sebelius, the 'You're not a real feminist' and 'You're a sexist monster!  A monster I say!' trains will be chugging down the tracks at full speed.

    It's already started here on this thread.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, bring it on. . . . (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:53:12 AM EST
    as I would relish the chance to take on anyone who tried to tell me I'm a sexist, too.  I had some fun with those who tried the racist thing on me about my not backing Obama.

    If you knew my personal history . . . well, let me just say again -- bring it on.  Let them try to tell me I'm a sexist if I don't support a ticket with a woman on it, and I'll get to bring out my checklist.

    [ Parent ]

    Yup, "bring it on!" (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:56:59 AM EST
    Accusing me wouldn't pass the laugh test in my neck of the woods, either.

    [ Parent ]
    Also, Cuts the Repubs off (none / 0) (#125)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:11:22 AM EST
    at the knees.   It's easy to picture exactly what will happen.  Every criticism of Sebelius will be rebuffed by claiming it's based in sexism.  They won't be able to evaluate her on any level.  More of the same for this campaign.

    [ Parent ]
    I will absolutely barf (5.00 / 2) (#207)
    by sleepingdogs on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:42:12 PM EST
    if the DNC then gets vocal about sexism as well, saying "We never noticed the horrible sexism until Hillary pointed it out.  Too bad it's too late to help her her with that, but not too late to use it to help Obama!"

    [ Parent ]
    I certainly hope not. (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:43:58 AM EST
    There will be reasons to not pick Clinton, some of which are legitimate, and some of which are not. I've got my own wonders about what sort of team they would be. I love both individually, but them together just doesn't seem quite right to me.

    I do think Sebelius has some very admirable traits, though, that shouldn't be overlooked if she is the choice.  I hope the fact that she is "not Clinton" won't make Clinton supporters immediately write her off or feel maligned towards her. I hope if she does wind up being the VP pick, that people will stop comparing her to Clinton, and just judge her on her own merits.

    [ Parent ]

    it'll be impossible (5.00 / 10) (#72)
    by ccpup on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:49:36 AM EST
    to not compare a Governor of a Red State to a former First Lady/Second Term popular Senator of a strong Blue State/Historic Presidential Candidate who got More Votes than Anyone in Primary History.

    It's just not going to happen.  To choose any woman other than Hillary is to completely miss the reason people voted for her ... and it wasn't because she is a woman.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you. We are not voting our vaginas. (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:54:01 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Such a simple concept. (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:59:10 AM EST
    Hello?  Democrats?  Anybody home?

    [ Parent ]
    Problem though is that (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by brodie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:52:50 AM EST
    we all can come up with our own "side by side" comparison tests and come out with different results.

    Which one promotes the winning theme of Change?  KS, hands down.

    Which one has (far) fewer personal negatives, at least as perceived by the public through the media filter?  KS.

    Which one doesn't have a spouse whose presence either on the stump or in office could complicate things?  KS.

    Which one wouldn't automatically be tarred and feathered by the MCM immediately upon being nominated?  KS>

    Which one appears to have a more comfortable working relationship with Obama?  Again, KS.

    And so on.

    Picking a Veep isn't a simple matter of counting up years in office or yrs working in the public interest in various ways, though that is important.  If it were that simple, then probably Joe Biden should be the choice, without much discussion actually.

    Or maybe Bobby Byrd.  I mean, he's been in public office since Ike was president.

    [ Parent ]

    Let's not go down that road. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:57:49 AM EST
    Certain things here are legitimate, such as the comfortable working relationship with Obama, and the adding to the theme of "Change" bit. But the others are, as you said, pretty subjective. Subjectivity gets into politics and often fouls things up.

    If KS is the VP nominee, I want you too to judge her according to her own policy merits and record. Don't tout that she's for "Change" or that she's more loved by the media--tout her stances on wind energy, on abortion, on the war, on equal-pay rights... there are a lot of good things to be seen here. But make it issue-based and objective.

    [ Parent ]

    We mostly agree, except (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by brodie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:16:29 AM EST
    right now we're in the phase where we're all making arguments of various types -- subjective and objective -- for our preferred #2.  Definitely the stance on various major issues is crucial -- which is why I contend Sebelius is the best choice since among the apparent Final Four she comes out most progressive on a range of issues -- surprisingly and refreshingly so for a pol from the red state of KS ferchrissakes.  And anti-mandated creationism in the schools to boot.

    Now, in the current discussion, matters such as how a candidate will be treated by the media is in fact highly relevant, just as it's pertinent, say, whether s/he has any embarrassing nicks in the record (Biden does).

    Also relevant, because it's such an integral part of the equation for O's campaign, is whether a #2 adds to or detracts from the successful theme of Change.  Sorry, but if this choice isn't handled right and given great weight in the final decision, O can just about toss out his Change banners and put up something a little more in keeping with truth in advertising, such as One is About Change, the Other is Here to Remind You All About the Tired Old Ways.

    [ Parent ]

    You should have read Lanny Davis's (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:22:50 AM EST
    article.

    Hillary far outstrips Sebelius on experience AND issues.  No contest there.

    She's also the only one who helps the ticket, vote-wise.

    It's fine to make a plea for focusing on the issues, just not disingenuous ones.

    [ Parent ]

    I read it, I like LD, but I'm (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by brodie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:03:35 AM EST
    not impressed by polls about possible Veeps, especially when HRC is far and away the leader in name ID.

    As for experience, Sebelius has far more elective office experience than Edwards did -- in essence, KS easily clears the experience threshold, and at that point, once experience is met, you then look at the stance on issues and personal factors.  

    On issues, she's equal to Hillary in standing for progressive values (perhaps slightly better if we factor in Iraq), and on the personal matters, which do matter to a very great degree, she has a substantial net upside (virtually no negatives) that easily exceeds Hillary's unfortunate and not always fair or accurate downside.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:07:35 AM EST
    "more elective office experience than Edwards did" really gave me the giggles.

    That's a recommendation?  Hell, I have more elective-office experience than Edwards!  Oh...and see how well that worked out?  Twice?

    Let's get real, folks.

    Focus.  Focus.  

    Some things matter.  Some don't.  

    [ Parent ]

    well, smile, since we are a bunch of cultists (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:53:36 AM EST
    according to some then why would hillary supporters vote for obama because he has a woman candidate? that presumption also assumes that these voters are dumb and will vote for a generic woman because she is a woman. that wasn't so at least with my vote. hillary earned it.

    now i respect jeralyn's analysis. i see however that by going after those not registered or involved so to speak further widens the division between the democratic base and obama's new democratic party. that suggests defeat in november to me. good luck with that senator obama.

    [ Parent ]

    Sebelius is Hillary-LITE (5.00 / 4) (#128)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:17:47 AM EST
    That's why it's offensive. He wants a woman who does not upstage him. Not some uppity woman who doesn't know her place.

    If Hillary had picked Harold Ford? It's unfair, but this reeks of tokenism. What national security experience does Sebelius bring?

    And honestly, it makes Obama (but I suffer ODS) look like an immature twit that he can't suck it up and pick Hillary. Hillary said she was interested in the job. The people I met have been waiting since the 1980s for Hillary to run. Not just a token women, but Hillary specifically.

    [ Parent ]

    "Uppity" is supposed to ba verboten (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:57:00 AM EST
    here.  Let's see if your comment stays here . . . or if it's only okay to call us white women uppity.

    Because, of course, some of us sure are. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    You can, of course, be 'sad' about (5.00 / 6) (#61)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:38:02 AM EST
    whatever you want, but this argument is just the usual strawman trick.

    Picking her is just another cynical and patronizing move by the O campaign, which really thinks women, and Hillary supporters in particular, are that simple-minded, that unsophisticated, and that easily manipulated.

    I find it ironic that your claim is sadness because people would not look on Sebelius as an individual when the Obama campaign would specifically offering her up not as an individual but as a big 'Look!  I picked someone with girlie parts!'

    Obama doesn't give two bits about women, and esp. not about women over 40, which is the main demo he's lacking in.  That is perfectly plain from the primaries.


    [ Parent ]

    Hm. (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:52:07 AM EST
    While I agree that Obama is certainly no advocate for older women, is it really that bad to ask that people judge Sebelius according to Sebelius? If the Obama camp indeed does raise her up as a "Hey! Look! We picked a woman!" candidate, I will be rather buggered about it.

    But if they do offer her up on her own merits and as an individual, then I think it's only fair for people to take a look at her positions and experience, and make a choice for themselves, separate from anyone else.

    I think Clinton is more qualified. But no matter who he picks as VP, whether that's Kaine or Sebelius or Biden or anyone else, I'm not even going to factor Clinton into my decision.

    [ Parent ]

    ok, i'll judge her. she is boring! she has no (5.00 / 0) (#115)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:55:33 AM EST
    public speaking ability. she has no real creds. next!

    [ Parent ]
    It's got nothing to (5.00 / 8) (#81)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:54:54 AM EST
    do with whether or not Selibus is or is not qualified.  It's the same old "talking down" to women from the DLC and men of that generation.
    It's idiotic and adolescent of them.  

    It is saying to women (hear the syrupy talking down voice): Of course we're not sexist, see...we can pick a woman. YOU can have a woman, any woman (except of course the one you have chosen with 18 million votes).  It's another way of showing women that democratic males are benevolent dictators when it comes to women, as compared, they think, to bully rethugs.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeh, I'm reminded of a great woman (5.00 / 4) (#162)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:02:17 AM EST
    in my state, a lawyer in her 80s now who loves to tell the story of when she went out on the job market.  Her daddy was a leading businessman in town as head of the oldest and wealthiest company in the state, so she got an interview with the oldest and best and biggest law firm in the state, across the street from daddy's company.

    And she did great in the interview.  But the law firm told her that "we already have our woman."  Yep, they had one woman in the firm.  So they were real librul and good on women's issues, you bet.

    Btw, nobody knows now who the heck that woman was.  But the one who didn't get hired?  She went down the block to the oldest and wealthiest bank in town, started a women's division there -- and ended up as CEO.

    Btw, she was a Republican for eons.  But she doesn't like what the party became, so she became a leader of Republican Women for Choice.  And she eventually left the party.  They "already had," as she liked to say, "their women."

    [ Parent ]

    Sebelius certainly looks to be (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by brodie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:04:06 AM EST
    the most progressive when compared with what appears to be O's Final Four.

    Only Joe Biden comes close.  But, as Jeralyn noted here, he has his harshly punitive anti-crime/drug side, to go with his work for Big Banking in the senate.

    On personal issues, she's also ahead of the pack -- she's a fresh face and an historic candidate, if selected; likable personality overall and nice to look at.  No obvious personality quirk or track record of making serious faux pas (Biden).  

    Exciting public speaker?  No, but that's about as irrelevant a matter for choosing the #2 as you can imagine.  Edwards wasn't a great public speaker either (formal addresses), and yet he was warmly embraced as Kerry's VP last time.  Bill Clinton screwed up his 88 convention speech, droning on endlessly, yet Dems didn't reject him in 92 because of some stupid speech he gave yrs ago.

    As we see, O could do much worse than Sebelius compared to the rest.  Some of these complaints about her -- including the overblown one that too many Hillaryites will stamp their feet in protest because O didn't select their preferred woman -- will mostly fall away in time as we near Nov.  It almost always happens that way.

    [ Parent ]

    Historic only if Obama wins (5.00 / 5) (#95)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:09:02 AM EST
    She's the second female VP nominee by a major party in our history.  Gerry Ferraro was first.

    [ Parent ]
    actually edwards is an excellent public (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:57:27 AM EST
    speaker. he has charisma no matter what your opinion of him is.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually in terms of (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by brodie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:06:49 AM EST
    formal speechmaking, JE was not stellar.  As in his acceptance speech in 04 at the convention.  Underwhelming to say the least, and he looked almost at times like a small figure, with an underpowered voice, on a too-large stage.

    As for town hall informal talks, well of course he was much better, and had his Two Americas thing down pat.

    [ Parent ]

    having seen him personally i think (none / 0) (#198)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:25:52 PM EST
    he is excellent. he is fast on his feet and doesn't aaaaaaaaaaaah you to death. i noticed after he received the veep nomination the fire and charisma was toned down. i always assumed that the kerry people did that. in my view that was a tragic mistake. also he didn't shine in the debates the way i thought he would. so yeah, there are definitely two views that are valid here.

    [ Parent ]
    Nothing historic about Sebelius (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:03:45 AM EST
    that I can see.  Why do you think so?

    [ Parent ]
    Don't make me call your Mom. (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:18:17 AM EST
    "stamp their feet?"

    I've got news for you, buster.  It may have "always happened that way" in the past, but this is a change election in more ways than one.

    Good luck with infantalizing women as a selling point for Obama.

    Are you one of his paid bloggers?  Just wondering...

    [ Parent ]

    Many objections, certainly my objection (5.00 / 6) (#122)
    by esmense on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:06:38 AM EST
    to Sebelius arises from her truly horrible performance the few times she's been showcased on a national stage; stiff, droning, seemingly terrified of straying slightly from the provided script. As estimable a human being as she may be, and as soothing as her style may be to Kansans, she does not seem ready for prime time. It is hard to see her performing the tasks -- especially the sharper, more combative ones -- required of a VP candidate during a hard fought campaign.

    There seems to be a notion embraced by Obama supporters that women voters should be over-joyed to support and vote for ANY woman the leadership suggests, simply because she is a woman. But, contrary to the myth these Obama supporters have sold themselves, the vast majority of women won't vote -- and those who supported Hillary didn't vote -- simply on the basis of gender alone.

    A Sebelius pick would be a mystery in this sense; she  doesn't add anything to the ticket in terms of bringing in big and important swing states. Plus, her midwestern conservative style says old-time "moderate" politics (the kind of politics long associated with her region) not "change."

    So what is the big advantage Obama sees in her?

    My big fear about his choice of Sebelius, if he does choose her, is that his major reason for doing so will be her rather uninspiring persona -- that she is someone who won't upstage, someone who will play the traditional womanly role of chief supporter for the great man without bringing attention to herself as a powerful politician in her own right. In other words, she'll be useful for fluffing up his image, but she won't deflect the spotlight from him even a little bit. Rather than a traditional VP role, I fear that Obama wants Sebelius in a feminine role that is  someone familiar one many remember another era -- the 50s & 60s role of "office wife;" that is, the devoted, protective Executive Secretary or Assistant whose most important job was making the Great Man look good  -- a devoted underling cheerfully handling all the details the boss found boring or beneath him, cleaning up any messes, correcting (and when necessary taking responsibility for) all the mistakes, and, most of all, incessantly buffing and fiercely protecting the public image of the Great Man she stood so loyally behind.

    In other words, I fear, like so much of his campaign, this VP pick would be all about him. Rather than who would make the best president if something happens to him, who offers the best advantages (in terms of increasing the chance of victory) to the campaign, and who might best keep the office in Democratic hands after the Obama term is over.


    [ Parent ]

    She is Hillary-LITE (none / 0) (#131)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:22:00 AM EST
    Hillary was a pistol, which pissed a lot of people off because they didn't know what to make of it. Sebelius is sugar and spice and polite. I hear a lot of good things about Sebelius, she seems well-liked in her state. But she like Obama says that politics should be less disagreeable. "We can disagree without being disagreeable." That could work with voters who are tired of partisanship.

    [ Parent ]
    And Sebelius' husband never cheated on her (none / 0) (#132)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:23:32 AM EST
    that I know of. Sadly, that's what my brother and sister-in-law cited as their reason for not voting Hillary. She didn't stand up for women's rights because she stayed with Bill.

    [ Parent ]
    Says more about your rels (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:49:55 AM EST
    than it does about Hillary.

    If someone told me that, I'd probably ask them what Ms. Spears was up to - and they'd probably tell me.

    [ Parent ]

    The sexism from "feminist" Dems (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:57:12 AM EST
    came from all directions. Some said "why is Hillary running like a man? I might vote for her if she didn't." Huh? She's running to be leader of the free world! How do you know she isn't just running as herself?

    The other one was: she voted on the Iraq Resolution BECAUSE she's a woman. Nobody said that about Chuck Schumer - that he voted that was because he was a man.

    Double standards everywhere. If Michelle had cheated, would they say sorry, Barack doesn't stand up for men's rights? No.

    Double standards everywhere. I feel like it's a duty to stamp it out best I can when it comes up. I'm still working on the brother and sister-in-law. They have two daughters and this is a teachable moment for them.

    [ Parent ]

    Nah, give up on them (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:07:34 AM EST
    and be there for their daughters.

    I've given up on my brothers.  They're idjits on this stuff.  I thought they were teachable, too, because they said all the right things when it didn't require the right actions from them.

    But I've had such fun being an Auntie Mame, undermining parental authority with my nieces.  

    And my sisters-in-law love it -- although they won't tell my brothers so.  After all, they were the sort of women who married them and stuck with them, the idjits.

    Not sure if I have managed to have similar effect on my nephoos -- the misogyny in the men in my family is a strong influence on them.  But we'll see. . . .

    [ Parent ]

    The Idea That Clinton 'Had' to Vote On Iraq (none / 0) (#194)
    by daring grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:14:53 PM EST
    I always heard that connection of her gender with her vote as a pragmatic explanation that she voted that way with an eye toward running for POTUS--that her vote enabled her to fend off the "unprepared to be CiC, soft on terror" meme that she, as a woman and as a 'liberal' Clinton would probably get tarred with. Moreover, the ones I heard presenting this idea were allies and supporters who were arguing she WAS more liberal than the vote might convey.

    I suspect Schumer, if he had POTUS aspirations, might have tried the same framing of it. Not because of his gender, but because of the 'liberal senator from the godless state of New York' baggage opponents might try to attach to him.

    [ Parent ]

    It had nothing to do with gender (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:40:21 PM EST
    I am convinced it wasn't gender-based. The majority of Senate Dems voted for it, were their votes gender-based?

    I saw her on the Sunday morning shows around that time and she said when "my husband" was president, there was some situation (Kosovo? I don't remember which) when he really needed Congress to grant him that power for negotiating purposes, and they denied it, and it turned into a bigger problem. She was pretty convincing.

    [ Parent ]

    I Know (5.00 / 2) (#211)
    by daring grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:51:19 PM EST
    Did you understand that I was saying that the inclusion of her gender in any explanation that I ever heard related to how the Republicans and the MSM  in a POTUS campaign might use that stereotypically to make Clinton look 'weak' if she had voted otherwise on Iraq?

    It was never framed to me as her doing it as a woman but rather as her being politically savvy and defending her flank when the inevitable slurs on her gender and her 'toughness' were raised.

    I heard her make the justification you quote as well.

    [ Parent ]

    Why hasn't this been touted? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Xanthe on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:17:04 AM EST
    Many people don't know her at all.  Is it because Obama doesn't want an "tree hugger."  Don't laugh - we don't feel that way but he is trying to be all things to all people.  So let's keep her ideas as quiet as possible.

    Hey I'm all for someone in office who is strong on alternative energy - even if it is a VP.

    [ Parent ]

    Pelosi's choice (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by Prabhata on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:20:33 AM EST
    Sebelius has the support of those behind Obama.  I'm happy it's not HRC because my vote for anybody but Obama will be that much easier.

    I know what you are saying. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by JoeA on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:53:50 AM EST
    But surely that is a pretty "anti-feminist" and sad position to take.  i.e. Better to nominate a man than a woman other than Hillary?

    Don't forget B O R I N G. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:26:49 AM EST
    We can snooze through the next four years.

    [ Parent ]
    The point is (5.00 / 10) (#15)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:51:21 AM EST
    choosing a woman will be seen as nothing more than an obvious and insulting pander to the women who supported Hillary.

    No one will think that an anonymous female like Sebelius would have been the VP pick even if the primary hadn't happened.  Heck, you yourself might think it, and it might even be true, but that's not how people will look at it.

    [ Parent ]

    This "pander" objection is (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by brodie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:51:13 AM EST
    nonsense.  Consider:  if Hillary had been just 20% smarter about her campaign, not elevating Penn to run things but gone with someone wiser like Begala or Carville, then if she'd been the one who edged out O for the nom, would there be any plausible "pander to black voters" objection here if she selected O for her running mate?  

    It wouldn't hold water, because in that scenario, O would be her clear best pick, just as (arguably) Edwards was the clear best pick for Kerry in the last cycle, yet no one then moaned about how it was such an obvious and insulting "pander" to WCWs or Tar Heelers.  Did Dems bellyache about Carter "pandering" to Northern libs when he picked Fritz in 76?  Please.

    Now, Sebelius may be anonymous for the moment as she flies under the radar (perhaps as Jeralyn suggests, a clever misdirection), but she won't be once she becomes the pick and the media covers the selection 24/7 for several days.  And no one will object that she lacks qualifications -- not given her record of being elected to statewide office several times in a heavily red state, and her outstanding record of achievement along progressive lines.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Come on... (5.00 / 6) (#124)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:10:42 AM EST
    ...then if she'd been the one who edged out O for the nom, would there be any plausible "pander to black voters" objection here if she selected O for her running mate?

    there would have been no need. Hillary made it clear she would have chosen Obama. I believed her. And yes, I do believe Obama's supporters would have flipped right out if she had in turn chosen Harold Ford.

    [ Parent ]

    If Hillary picked Harold Ford as veep (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:27:55 AM EST
    that's a better comparison. Would you see it as a pander? I see Harold Ford as Obama-LITE. Sebelius is Hillary-LITE. I see both as panders, tokenism. JFK sucked it up and picked LBJ. Why can't Obama be a grownup about this? Why is it so hard to just give her that floor vote?

    [ Parent ]
    Hahaha. Okay, all it will require of Obama (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:10:22 AM EST
    then is to never ever say that Sebelius would be a historic first as a woman VP.

    If that is said, even once -- and by anyone in his campaign or the media, not just him -- then it will look like pandering.  And perception is uber alless in politics, the way she is played.

    [ Parent ]

    not only that (none / 0) (#177)
    by cawaltz on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:27:41 AM EST
    he'll look like an idiot because Sebelius won't be a historic first. Ferraro was first. They may not like her but they can't revise her out of history as the first female VP.

    [ Parent ]
    Uh, Mondale and Ferraro didn't win. (none / 0) (#179)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:33:21 AM EST
    I didn't say historic first woman VP candidate.

    See the difference?

    [ Parent ]

    If HE calls her a historic first (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by cawaltz on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:54:33 AM EST
    and it ain't AFTER the election is over he cements the impression of arrogance. If the point is to call something a historic first then they won't be able to do it until AFTER the election is over(since WINNING is the requirement to make it historic). Do you see my point?

    [ Parent ]
    Okay, let me try this again (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:39:12 PM EST
    as he won't have to wait until after the election to pander.  It's about verb tense.  All he has to do is say that electing the ticket with her on it would be historic for women (as well as for AAs).

    [ Parent ]
    you think? really! see ya in november! (none / 0) (#119)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:59:28 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It's all about the context (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:50:52 AM EST
    and the Obama campaign and the Obama supporters have supplied plenty of context.

    Perhaps if they hadn't...?  (But they did.)

    [ Parent ]

    no (5.00 / 9) (#37)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:58:39 AM EST
    Better to nominate the most qualified person who happens to be a woman because she's the most qualified.  Don't nominate someone less qualified who is also a woman because you feel you have a problem with women voters.

    The cumulative effect is to merely insult women voters with your assumption that they are only supporting a woman because she is a woman and any woman will do.

    [ Parent ]

    NO, it's NOT (5.00 / 7) (#88)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:59:42 AM EST
    You are not listening, or you are not hearing or you just are incapable of getting in.

    We KNOW, we CHOSE the woman we wanted.  It is CLEAR whom we wanted.  But the DLC, Dean and the good old boys, Kennedy, Kerry and the bunch are doing a power play to hold on to the status quo.

    Their "any woman except the one women chose" screams power play; screams "we'll show you."  

    It's just wrong. Women get it.  Been there, done that.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, since (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:19:48 AM EST
    one of the most common rationales for choosing Obama was "any man is better than this woman," I really don't see that there's room for Obamites to complain.

    [ Parent ]
    Eh (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:48:27 AM EST
    I really don't think the average college student or voter thinks like "Evan Bayh = same old same old" "Kathleen Sebelius = changerrific!"  What is Bayh's name recognition outside of Indiana?

    If people haven't been bothered so far by the cognitive dissonance of old-timers like John Kerry promising that Obama will change Washington, they're not going to freak out over the VP selection.

    Thing is, really, no argument (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:05:19 AM EST
    based on the idea that Obama would lose his base by doing x or y holds any water.

    If his fans can swallow FISA and all his other backtracking, he could announce the Pillsbury Dough Boy as his VP pick and they would still support him.  Any crowd that can convince themselves that he's a secret progressive who will, once elected, come flying out of the gate and reverse all the political destruction of the last 8 years can rationalize anything.  Anything.

    [ Parent ]

    Sebelius as VP equals (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by stefystef on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:56:04 AM EST
    McCain in the White House in November.

    Why?  Because this election  has proven that sexism is as strong a factor as racism.

    This selection will not make Hillary supporters come to Obama and it might even turn off some men.  If Obama wants to win this, he needs a white man from the South or Midwest.

    Sadly, because of Edwards personal issues, he's outta it (not that he was really in it in the first place) and Biden won't happen.  I think this year is the last horrah for Biden's bid for the White House.  Bayh or Kaine would be better.

    catch 22 (none / 0) (#58)
    by MrPope on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:35:33 AM EST
    no mattwe who he picks as VP... people will have a problem with it..

    he picks HILL.... people who want the clintons out of the WH  will go nuts

    he doesnt pick HILL...staunch Hill supporters will vote for the unthinkable  MCCAIN

    he picks SELEBIUS  it will tick off HILL supporters  and MEN who wont vote for a woman

    and on and on

    i think the best PICK would be GORE... but GORE doesnt want it.

    can BILL be VP?  thats a thought

    [ Parent ]

    last suggestion (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:42:12 AM EST
    contradicts your second assumption.


    [ Parent ]
    he can pich Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:57:02 AM EST
    and tell his supporters to 'suck it up' for the sake of the supreme court.  They've been telling Clinton supporters that since the end of the primary.  So, it would be rather difficult for them to argue against it now wouldn't it?  What about the children?  Think about the children?

    [ Parent ]
    progressive change to Obama (5.00 / 10) (#17)
    by kimsaw on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:07:29 AM EST
    is compromise leading to the status quo.  Is FISA a compromise that works in the nation's interest? This is from a candidate who politically maneuvers by voting present.  If he does choose Sebelius he has chosen his clone only in the female form. She is a pretty woman that will appease to those who offered "a woman but just not this woman" or to those right of center and less progressive.  Gov. Sebelius is as cloudy a Dem as Obama is. Can someone please tell me what do the Dems stand up for these days?

    The fact that Obama can't or won't work with Clinton as VP, is telling to this voter. Obama cares more about positioning his legacy than working with the best possible team for a new direction in America. Clinton on substance and commitment to cause, along with 18 million voters should be Obama's presumptive choice. Obama lack of personal and political confidence to deal substantively on the issues drives him from Clinton toward the lesser knowns or his clone. It in the end is not about America but about Obama.  


    To have a legacy (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:33:59 AM EST
    you first have to get elected...

    Concern about that might be typical of Obama thinking...on to the next stage of his metamorphosis before he's dealt with the durrent one.

    Cart before horse, as it were.

    [ Parent ]

    This is so insane by Obama, (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by nulee on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:43:59 AM EST
    but the denial is people about picking Hillary boggles my mine, just yesterday I was taken aback once again to here a colleague say he wished Edwards was to be VP - how could he even say that?  Edwards didn't even take, what, 1/10th of the primary votes Hillary got (either time) - he has no foreign policy experience, little other experience, lost in '04, didn't get out of the station in '08, has love child rumors swirling about ---- what does Hillary need for Obama and the public to take notice?

    I think not taking HRC as VP makes Obama look like a TOTAL whimp.

    It would be nice if, occasionally, Obama (5.00 / 9) (#20)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:44:31 AM EST
    didn't act as if he is just so much smarter than all of us regular voters, to the point where he would think picking a woman other than Hillary is a smart move - is he so removed from what 18 million-plus real voters said in voting for Clinton that he thinks this won't matter?  Does he have any idea how many people who have tepidly thrown their support to him will see that as a deal-breaker?

    I don't know, Jeralyn - I will anxiously await your take on this, but I have to say that I think blindsiding us with a Sebelius pick would be a really tone-deaf move on Obama's part.

    I can just see it now...Hillary gives a bring-down-the-house speech on Ladies Night, people all over the country remember what it is they so admired and loved about her, how much the country needs her kind of passion and work ethic and experience, and Sebelius appears and falls so flat she is doomed from Day One; the wounds re-open and this time, they stay open.

    Of course you're going to be blind-sided... (5.00 / 7) (#22)
    by lambertstrether on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:47:25 AM EST
    for pity's sake.

    Fool me once, and all that.

    Get it straight: it's all about the Obama Movement. They don't want you in the party. That's why they do what they do.

    [ Parent ]

    Worked on me! I'm out (none / 0) (#183)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:38:12 AM EST
    at the national level.

    They don't want my time, my money, my input or my vote.

    OK.

    [ Parent ]

    When (5.00 / 8) (#28)
    by chrisvee on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:23:54 AM EST
    Sebelius's name was floated many months ago (during the State of the Union) I said that if Obama won the nomination and picked her, it would be a disaster because a significant portion of Hillary's supporters would be livid and treat it as the final insult. I don't see any reason to back off those thoughts right now because passions don't seem to have cooled much.  Is Sebelius more qualified than Hillary?  No.  Are we supposed to embrace her because she's a woman? No; we're not interchangeable.  How would people react if Hillary as nominee selected a AA other than Obama?  I think we all know the answer to that one.  She's be skewered in the media. In terms of name recognition, how many people know who she is?

    She would be a very bad pick indeed not because she's unaccomplished or because of her policies but because of the optics of the thing and because I don't think she's going to be perceive as someone ready to be POTUS, either.  It amazes me how Obama could clearly have a slam dunk win if he added Hillary to the ticket but instead this process of finding someone else to help execute some risky strategy goes on and on...I'm starting to understand why we can't win the White House.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm with Anne- (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by magisterludi on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:25:25 AM EST
    Sebeliuzzz-zzzz-zzzz.

    [ Parent ]
    he's not smarter than us (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by ccpup on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:22:50 AM EST
    he's just constantly disappointed that we don't "get it".

    If he DOES pick Sebelius, it will clearly demonstrate that he underestimates the support Hillary has (which basically means he lives in a HUGE bubble and may not be as politically aware or intelligent as he should be) and literally believes he has this "in the bag" or why else would he potentially -- and quite probably -- kiss nearly 18 million votes goodbye?

    The point about Hillary speaking and reminding people of what they could have had had the Stupid Super Ds done what they were supposed to do is a great one to make.  And then to compare Sebelius to that?  Ugh.  I don't want to be in her heels as I trust s