Venezuela Slouching Towards A Police State

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:00:44 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)

Share This: Digg!

This is disturbing news from Venezuela:

President Hugo Chávez has used his decree powers to carry out a major overhaul of this country’s intelligence agencies, provoking a fierce backlash here from human rights groups and legal scholars who say the measures will force citizens to inform on one another to avoid prison terms.

. . . The new law requires people in the country to comply with requests to assist the agencies, secret police or community activist groups loyal to Mr. Chávez. Refusal can result in prison terms of two to four years for most people and four to six years for government employees. “We are before a set of measures that are a threat to all of us,” said Blanca Rosa Mármol de León, a justice on Venezuela’s top court, in a rare public judicial dissent. “I have an obligation to say this, as a citizen and a judge. This is a step toward the creation of a society of informers.”

< Rezko Verdict Watch | Tuesday Open Thread: An American Storm >

Legal

Nothing on this site should be construed as legal advice. TalkLeft does not give legal advice.

TalkLeft is not responsible for and often disagrees with material posted in the comments section. Read at your own risk.

Venezuela Slouching Towards A Police State | 66 comments (66 topical)

Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment

But he will continue to intoxicate his (5.00 / 2) (#1)
by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:02:52 AM EST

"progressive" benefactors with cheap oil.

He is a thug, of course.

"movements" (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by Stellaaa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:05:17 AM EST

Are scary things.

The far left (5.00 / 3) (#5)
by madamab on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:11:24 AM EST

and the far right always seem to produce dictatorships of some form or another, don't they?

An extremist of any stripe should never have control of a government.

If only Americans understood this (none / 0) (#24)
by inclusiveheart on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:11:31 AM EST

principle the Republican Party would not be what it is today.


They scare the hell (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:30:29 AM EST

out of people and then tell them they'll keep em safe. Forever and ever. It's the oldest game in town.


The only difference (none / 0) (#26)
by PamFl on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:25:40 AM EST

between Chavez and Bush/Cheney/Rove is that they've done the same and called it the "War on Terroism" in the name of "National Security" for the preservation of Democracy.
The unitary powers are all in place. It remains to be seen if Bush will use them to suppress freedom in our country or if he will allow these powers to go to the Dems in Nov.
We shall see.


: Good points. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
by inclusiveheart on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:47:10 AM EST

I was really refering more to the fact that American's tolerance for wacked out representatives with extremist ideologies has increased over the years which in turn has changed the Republican Party - a lot. There used to be some trully "ok" Republicans in the House and Senate. Tom DeLay saw to it that, particularly in the House, moderate Republicans were purged. And people kept voting for the extremists for a long time seemingly unaware of how dangerous extremism really is.

I'd like.... (none / 0) (#32)
by kdog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:31:17 PM EST

a freedom extremist in power.

Then again, freedom extremists don't thirst for power.


well, yeah, they do. (none / 0) (#38)
by cpinva on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:53:20 PM EST

Then again, freedom extremists don't thirst for power

here they call themselves "libertarians". unfortunately, they even manage to mangle the concept of freedom, taking it to such a degree as to effectively create anarchy.

personally, i'm not into anarchy, it's not good for business, or other living things.

chavez is a thug, as much of a dictator as saddam. this is merely another manifestation of the paranoia common among the type.


: If freedom extremists.... (none / 0) (#40)
by kdog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:01:04 PM EST

thirst for power then they are still very thirsty, because I don't know one place on earth where freedom extremists are in power.
If Bush and Chavez represent archies...I'm ready to try anarchy.

Argentina is not (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by Gabriel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:14:56 AM EST

a very good example. They are worse than Venezuela in many respects.

Chile, though, should be an example for all Latin America.

: No (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by Gabriel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:32:14 AM EST

Not really. The economic growth is due to either recovery from the brutal 2001-2002 crisis or higher agricultural prices, neither having anything to do with Kirchner.
Inflation has skyrocketed but the government keeps lying about it, although no one believes them. It's running close to 30% now.
Graciela's approval has crashed in the last couple of months due to how she has handled the current crisis with the agro sector.
And price controls have led to very low investment in many areas, specially energy, so now that it's winter down there people and companies don't have gas for their homes and factories.
The only think keeping the country together is the still very high prices for soy and other Argentine exports. If that changes Argentina will go thorugh another of its periodical crisis.
(sorry for duplicate post, I responded to the wrong comment elsewhere)

Chavez' next step may be to photocopy . . . (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by wurman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:20:39 AM EST

. . . the USA Patriot Act, ram it through a somnambulized legislature & implement it.

"Freedom's just another word for
Nothing left to lose . . .
Nothing ain't worth nothing
But it's free . . . ."
Kris Kristofferson & Fred Foster--"Me & Bobby McGee"

bush spies (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by melonhead on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:48:53 AM EST

Don't I recall, during the early days of the Bush administration (after 911), a move similar in nature to the Chavez move. Something like encouraging citizens to keep a close eye on their neighbors and report them if the appear to be doing anything "suspicious".

That's only cuz (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:52:17 AM EST

a few good ole boys thought they saw Mullah Omar in Denneys. Nothin' to worry about. Caint happen here.


Provide a link (none / 0) (#20)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:58:14 AM EST

please. If it was stated, Jail was not threatened if neighbors was not watched. But Ayers luvs Chavez.


Do you need a link (none / 0) (#21)
by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:03:23 AM EST

about the number of people who've been tortured and then released?

I guess one man's police state is another man's price-of-democracy, eh?


Provide a link (none / 0) (#22)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:06:11 AM EST

stating that the evil gov't asked citizens to watch other citizens.


You Mean Bush's Terrorist Surveillance Program? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by Dan the Man on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:19:16 AM EST

TSA


: Wiki is (none / 0) (#65)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:06:58 PM EST

a good source? LOL
Where is the jail time for not watching your nieghbor?

Links (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:13:20 PM EST

Here and here


Simon Romero (5.00 / 1) (#39)
by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:59:49 PM EST

And the Grey Lady, needs to be taken with a pound of salt when it comes to 'hot zone' reporting. Simon Romero is about as neutral as Michael Gordon, from what I have read, iow their reporting may as well be State Department press releases.

You would think that if the situation was exactly as Romero reports, he would be arrested or ousted from the country, no? He is not a supporter of Chavez, to say the least, yet he remains free to report from Caracas where he is based, as the Andean bureau chief for The New York Times.

Do you propose any remedy? (none / 0) (#4)
by Salo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:09:47 AM EST

It's hard to see one that doesn't involve bombing Caracas in the next ten years.

: Please no. n/t (5.00 / 0) (#23)
by inclusiveheart on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:10:24 AM EST

: Good question to ask our (none / 0) (#14)
by ruffian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:33:24 AM EST

presumptive nominee. If he is taking questions these days.

: We sit on our hands (none / 0) (#19)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:56:15 AM EST

Let Chavez be, he is digging himself a good hole right now.

: No (none / 0) (#54)
by MKS on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 02:43:23 PM EST

That would be a disaster. That type of threat is what Chavez uses to garner power and support.
The history of U.S. intervention in Latin America is a bad one that all Latin Americans know full well and resent to their core. Thank God, Dean Acheson put the kaibosh on the attempt to topple Guatemala's government in 1952....of course the Dulles boys under the Republicans pulled of the CIA coup in Guatemala for real in 1954--and bad things have happened ever since.
This idea of taking out governments we don't like didn't work so well in Iraq.
Bombing Venezeula is a page out of the Republican playbook. Pat Robertson has advocated assassinating Chavez--that just strengthens Chavez's hand by playing into Venezuelan nationalism.

See what happens when you follow a (none / 0) (#7)
by AX10 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:19:24 AM EST

"cult of personality".
Chavez is a scumbag.

: The job of spin doctors (none / 0) (#16)
by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:48:58 AM EST

and media consultants is to do little else BUT create mini-personality cults.
Of course, these things only happen somewhere else.
Maybe it's time we (democratically) instigated another coup and propped up a Pinochet, or a Shah over there.

So Hugo Chavez Is Not a Good Guy? (none / 0) (#9)
by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:21:07 AM EST

I'm shocked.

No (none / 0) (#11)
by Gabriel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:30:19 AM EST

Not really. The economic growth is due to either recovery from the brutal 2001-2002 crisis or higher agricultural prices, neither having anything to do with Kirchner.

Inflation has skyrocketed but the government keeps lying about it, although no one believes them. It's running close to 30% now.

Graciela's approval has crashed in the last couple of months due to how she has handled the current crisis with the agro sector.

And price controls have led to very low investment in many areas, specially energy, so now that it's winter down there people and companies don't have gas for their homes and factories.

The only think keeping the country together is the still very high prices for soy and other Argentine exports. If that changes Argentina will go thorugh another of its periodical crisis.

: Ooops (none / 0) (#13)
by Gabriel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:33:04 AM EST

Wrong place for this comment, sorry. Please delete/ignore the above comment and this one.
Thanks

Police State (none / 0) (#17)
by judyo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:51:47 AM EST

America too

Anyone (none / 0) (#28)
by bocajeff on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:39:12 AM EST

Anyone who thinks that TSA or Patriot Act is anything even remotely like what Chavez is proposing is either full of Republican hate or naive. This is a slippery slope argument that anyone can get into and does nothing to advance a point of view.

Chavez is REQUIRING its citizens with jail term if they do not COMPLY with the requests it makes.

What's more totalitarian? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:03:00 PM EST

Invading a sovereign nation and precipitating a chaos that leads to hundreds of thousands dead, maimed, traumatized and uprootet -- while all the while allowing nefarious contractor friends to loot the treasury; or, what Chavez is doing?

Republican "hate"? Effing right.


Actually, (none / 0) (#33)
by bocajeff on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:37:55 PM EST

You answered your own question. If I live in relative freedom even as my government behaves atrociously then I am, by definition, not living in a totalitarian country.

One has nothing to do with the other. Let's put it another way. Would you rather live in a totalitarian country that doesn't invade other countries or live in a free country that does? Only two options, which do you choose????


Free Country (5.00 / 1) (#37)
by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:50:49 PM EST

But a the freedom is on a sliding scale based on color, wealth and religion. Besides if our government was being attacked within our borders by the same kind of political activists that we are supporting in Venezuala, many of those activists would be in jail right now. Yes in jail, even if Hillary or Obama becomes president.


Franklin Roosevelt (none / 0) (#43)
by bocajeff on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:15:42 PM EST

impriosoned over 100,000 men, women and children and seized their property because of internal threats. The difference is that Chavez isn't doing this because of internal threats - he's doing this because he is totalitarian to begin with. When WWII was over things here reverted.


He Has Not Jailed (5.00 / 0) (#44)
by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:21:31 PM EST

Simon Romero, has he? And if you do not think that our State Department is not working, 24/7 to overthrow Chavez, I have a bridge to sell you.


: Double Negative Trouble (none / 0) (#46)
by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:23:00 PM EST

But you know what I mean....

Totalitarian to begin (none / 0) (#59)
by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:37:31 PM EST

with.

And, of course, if any of the Venezualans disagree with you, what do they know?

All repression here is always justified and totalitarian everywhere else. Your formula is so consistent and simple -- that's the beauty of it.

Parent %%