Poor Poor Hillary?

Washington Post columnist Libby Copeland exmaines the "Poor Hillary" meme by those who don't care for Hillary Clinton. It's only worth reading for the end:

You see the real Clinton on TV this week after her West Virginia win. Brian Williams tries to lead her into an autopsy of her campaign, and she keeps coming back with that smile. She looks rested. She looks like she knows exactly what she's doing.

"Made of steel," is how John Edwards describes her Wednesday, just before he endorses Barack Obama.

"We'll know a lot more on June 4th," the candidate herself says, placid as a lap cat. "I don't believe in quitting. I don't believe in being pushed out."

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    As a female that is in the fight of my life (5.00 / 14) (#1)
    by athyrio on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:58:27 AM EST
    medically, I love Hillary and totally relate to her and admire her....If that sounds like Kool-aide, it isn't, but in life we all have to have our heros and she has become mine....Whats kinda funny is starting out this campaign, I didn't like her too much and really liked Edwards, now that has flipped and I find that amazing....Edwards isn't the fighter we need but Hillary is IMO....

    the best of luck to you (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:07:14 AM EST
    I had a similar journey from Edwards to Hillary.
    I began thinking that Edwards had the best chance of winning and voted for him in the arkansas primary.  I was wrong.  I regret that vote and have tried to make up for it with money to Hillary.  
    she has really become a hero of mine too.  I always liked her but this experience has made me a Hillary cult member.
    I believe she is the politician we have been saying for years we wanted to see.

    Actually, I still think Edwards (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by cosbo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:19:13 AM EST
    was the best chance of winning HUGE. With Edwards we might have gotten the more southern states against McCain, so I disagree with you a little bit. The republicans knew it too. That's why their media cut him out early. That he was able to shape all their agendas was pretty powerful in itself.

    maybe (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:29:23 AM EST
    but I think they would have gone to town on the trial lawyer stuff rich guy stuff.
    I know this is a legal blog and I am not dissing lawyers but we all know they would have.
    and personally I thing the endorsement of Obama was done in a fairly craven way.  I am not proud I voted for him.

    The think is that they tried that on him in (none / 0) (#67)
    by cosbo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:41:59 AM EST
    North Carolina when he ran, and it didn't work. He ran as a Democrat in a red state and won, as a trial lawyer.

    I agree (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:32:37 AM EST
    My thinking was that Edwards could probably pull 55% of the vote in a general election. Hillary could pull about 51-55% and Obama wouldn't break 50% in a general election against McCain. It looks like my predictions were pretty accurate.

    I never saw it that way (none / 0) (#52)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:36:34 AM EST
    When Edwards first got in the race, my thought was "old news - not gonna make it past Super Tuesday."

    Candidates who lose elections generally can't come back the next cycle and win it.


    That's only true for the Democrats (none / 0) (#134)
    by Elporton on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:08:30 AM EST
    The Republicans will take candidates that didn't win and run them again, with some success.  It's really only the Democrats that think "once a loser, always a loser."

    Like Capt. Howdy, I voted for Edwards in the AR primary, even though he had already dropped out of the race by that time.  I'm with those that believe he could have run the table against McCain, especially his "Two America" message and the economy in the tank for all but the wealthy.

    Having said that, I am disappointed in his endorsement of Obama and believe it was not much more than a diversion from the thumping Obama took in WV.


    There's not evidence to support that, (none / 0) (#29)
    by masslib on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:28:59 AM EST
    other than early polling, which was more about generic white male Dem versus Republican.  I think it clear Hill is the strongest of the three.  She won back the Reagan Democrats for pete's sake.

    Well to me it's just common sense... (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by cosbo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:40:24 AM EST
    Edwards had the kind of history that most of those people were comfortable with....small-town humble beginnings, a tragic loss and good looks. He was the real thing as opposed to Bush who emulated those qualities and won. Bush was born with a silver spoon. The republicans know what kind of people win the Whitehouse. That was why Bush didn't want to run against Edwards in 2004. In fact, his justice department actually sent out investigators to law firms supporting Edwards to in effect threaten them. I'll see if I can find links to the story later.

    Anyway, the only reason both Hillary & Obama got more support was because of media coverage. That's it. More coverage = more exposure = more money = more voters.

    That it came do to Clinton vs. Obama is no great mystery since that's what the media started with.


    I agree with you to a point (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:44:59 AM EST
    as silly as it sounds I think his hokey accent would have made him a bit harder to brand as a typical elitist dem nominee.

    Well, he wasn't winning their votes. (none / 0) (#139)
    by masslib on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:10:24 AM EST
    Actually he won a good portion... (none / 0) (#148)
    by cosbo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:30:48 AM EST
    relative I supposed to the amount of media coverage he got. I wonder if the republican media has a formula somewhere on how to win based on exposure+positive+negative = win/loss.

    He stepped aside so that... (none / 0) (#156)
    by cosbo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    "history can blaze it's path" remember. Both Hillary supporters and Obama supporters were calling for him to get out of the way. Aside from not getting the media coverage, he was also battling the "enough white males for president" perception. He thought he was being noble and look where we are now. Heh.

    Edwards never had a chance (none / 0) (#163)
    by bridget on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:57:51 PM EST
    not in 2004 and not in 2008

    it's always amazing to me how quickly people forgot campaign 2004, the lamest for decades.

    he knew it too and so he and his wife went out in an all out nasty negative campaign against Hillary with the help of netroots and MSNBC

    the media ignored him because they concentrated on new face. Besides he never got his campaign off the ground.

    Shaping their agendas? Hardly.


    Hope you win your battle (none / 0) (#113)
    by ruffian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:56:48 AM EST
    I also did not start out in Hillary's camp.  I was truly pretty neutral before Iowa.  After she lost there I was so sad at the thought that she might be losing the nomination that I realized I must have been for her all along, so I started paying more attention and came to the strong opinion that she is by far the most qualified, and the most electable as McCain emerged as the opponent.

    The horrible treatment of her in the media and the Obamablogs of course solidified my support. Good move, guys.


    athyrio, i was thinking about you (none / 0) (#118)
    by hellothere on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:59:38 AM EST
    recently and hoped you were doing well. glad to see you here.

    How similar we are! I started supporting Edwards- (none / 0) (#161)
    by jawbone on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:25:33 PM EST
    he had me with his announcement in NOLA and his universal healthcare plan.  I actually thought it might be better for Hillary to get the presidential bug out of her system and then she could be as fully liberal as a NY senator could be. She could be her liberal self, was how I thought about it. I was impressed with Obama, having heard nothing but raves about him.

    Then came the debates, and, first of all, this Obsma, the advertised speaker extraordinaire, hemmed and hawed and ummed his way through long, complex, unorganized statements that never seemed to get to a point.

    Hillary had a "you know" filler which I hated, but she had facts and figures, an outline, a sequencing to her style which lead to points one could understand and support for her analysis which could be grasped. I was more and more impressed.

    Then I went on a hunt for Senator Obama: Hope and Change? For what? How? What had he done previously which would let me see how he worked, what he might do.

    And learning about his work and political history, along with Krugman pointing out the problems with Obama's healthcare plan, seeing Obama tended to use Republican and Repub Lite talking points and ideas, reading about his advisers (yikes!) all combined to make me look more into Hillary. I learned things about her which were far different from what we'd been fed by the MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media, things like her latching on to the idea behind micro lending early on and getting it in place in Arkansas. Why did I never learn that? Our helpful vaunted free press??

    I also have a medical problem, not the fight of my life--yet. We just don't know what those little cells are doing....

    But, yes, very similar.  I feel we will be missing an opportunity to make the country better if she is not our president.


    Misogyny and Its Forms (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by Athena on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:59:32 AM EST
    Her candidacy is either greeted with fear or loathing by the MSM and its cyber-allies.  They are afraid or contemptuous.  And I reserve a special place of contempt for JRE's lame attempt to laud Clinton while simultaneously burying her 18 hours after her WV win.

    But that sweetie will not go quietly.

    Really? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:23:17 AM EST
    Because nearly every Barack supporter I know (about 25) has never had a bad word to say about Hillary, in fact all but two of them want her on the ticket and have written to BO accordingly. So there are not two camps as you allege, there are many types of thought on Hillary and many of us BO supporters who love and respect Hillary a great deal.

    I don't believe you. Sorry. (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:24:49 AM EST
    Every single Obama supporter I know, even longtime friends, people who defended Bill in the 90s and were outraged by that ABC movie about him are the same ones telling me  now how evil Hillary is.  Almost every one that i have met has nothing but horrible things to say about her.  

    LOL, exactly.... (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:30:15 AM EST
    My Obama supporting daughter has bashed Hillary for not divorcing Bill on numerous occasions and my beloved Obama supporting husband accused Hillary of releasing the Wright tapes in order to win the Ohio primary....and I had to remind him that it happened after Ohio. He didn't believe me until he checked it out himself, but I still love him.

    the younguns (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:32:34 AM EST
    think she is weak for not divorcing him, the younguns have not spent a long time in marriage and cannot understand its complexities...

    She comes from a different time than (none / 0) (#126)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:03:59 AM EST
    they do. These days, from what I can gather, the first marriage is practice and is expected to last 5-7 years. Then you move on up to a better, and richer, model. Unless your first hubby makes it big, and then you stick with him until he gets a new trophy wife, and you take him for half his considerable assets. Seriously. I ran across a discussion on this very thing a couple of months ago. I read it with fascination. Apparently, marriage now has a ladder, just like a corporation. Very weird.

    Even when I was young... (none / 0) (#158)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:10:17 PM EST
    And I was in my early 20s or so when Gennifer Flowers was floating around.

    Honest...never in my wildest dreams did I think she was weak for sticking with him.

    Actually it never even crossed my mind...relationships are complex systems. They don't always fall into the youngun "either/or" way of thinking.


    It's to the point where I would have a hard (none / 0) (#43)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:33:20 AM EST
    time respecting my husband if he supported Obama. Thankfully, he's totally in the tank for Hillary.

    I cut my husband a lot of slack because.... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:44:15 AM EST
    ...he learns from his mistakes. After realizing he had created a "false memory" regarding the Wright flap in his own mind, he has become more critical of Obama supporter smears against Clinton and he is concerned that the bad behavior of some of these folks is damaging the candidate that he thinks should be president. So yeah, what's not to respect.

    so you have crappy friends (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:29:40 AM EST
    Not my problem. Perhaps an upgrade is in order.

    Oh nice... (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:32:33 AM EST
    ...way to stay classy. By the way, if you really wanted to win our hearts and minds you'd admit and apologize because the evidence against you is overwhelming as we all have our own experiences with which to refute your claims.

    I am not here (2.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:35:52 AM EST
    to "win" you. And if that is your expectation, you are sorely misguided. I am not BO, I am a guy with an opinion just like yours. I think your opinion is completely without merit. To say "all" or there are only "two" types is ridiculous and immature. I have intention of kissing your arse to make you feel better about yourself or my candidate. Class? Truth has very little to do with class. Entitlement, there is a clear indicator of "class".

    Why are you here then? (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by pie on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:47:38 AM EST
    You're not helping his cause.  

    Heck, Obama's not helping his cause.


    and you are not here to make personal (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by hellothere on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:04:30 AM EST
    attacks either. that is frowned on by the keepers of the blog. please stop it and stick to issues. false arguments are also frowned on as well.

    Hillary Clinton has EARNED her chance (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:12:02 AM EST
    at the nomination. Obama has not. He hasn't even done a decent job for Ill. in the Senate. He has been too busy trying to get up to the next level. Obama is the one who thinks he is entitled to the nomination just because he is black. He should have stayed in the Senate and done some work instead of swanning off on a campaign for a job he isn't qualified to do. And as for a clear indication of "class", watch Obama grin while Hillary is booed by his followers, watch him scrape her off his shoe, dust her off his shoulders, etc. The only kind of class the Obamas have is no class at all. Tacky is what I would call people who behave like that. And that has nothing to do with color, it has to do with behavior. Theirs is tacky, tacky, tacky. And you can't claim to be classy is your behavior is tacky. The class act in this campaign is not Barack Obama, it's Hillary Clinton.

    I've heard it from you here as well. (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:32:46 AM EST
    So let's not play these games. The Unity Pony now realizes they need Hil's 17 million votes and are now pretending they respected her all along.

    Sorry, not buying it. Now that you need us Obama's supporters suddenly respect and always have respected Hillary. Bull. No you don't.  You just realize that now you need us. Too bad. Too late.  Not gonna happen.


    The unity (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:35:39 AM EST
    pony has a broken back.

    We're looking at (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by pie on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:44:51 AM EST
    the back end of the pony and seeing an a**.

    LOL, best comment today IMHO. (none / 0) (#89)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:48:39 AM EST
    this has been posted here before (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:40:02 AM EST
    GO back and look (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:39:26 AM EST
    18 months at my postings. I do not speak for Barack Obama, I speak for me. I don't care who you vote for. BUt I do care about the truth. I do care about lumping every Obama supporter into the miserable mind you have. You represent the tiniest fraction of Hillary supporters, and I do not think you speak on their behalf. So yourvote and your need for attention and arse kissing is your problem. I encourage you to vote McCain, and pledge some money there, he will make a great president if you love the policies of late...

    Look at you. You can't even go ONE post (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:45:47 AM EST
    without demeaning us in some way. Telling me first that I have crappy friends. Then that I have a small mind.

    You're not here to win us over.  Fine by me.  That's not working anyway.  And um, the 50% of Hillary supporters that won't vote for Obama? I would venture they DO agree with me and I do NOT represent a small number of them.

    But keep unifying.  Me and my small mind will be here.


    I didn't say you had a small mind (1.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:50:54 AM EST
    but now I agree you do. Again, not one post here bashing HIllary and nearly every one bashing Obama and his supporters. I guess Obama supporters are to crawl into a hole and hide and not respond? You are 20 people out of 17 million. I am one out of 17.6 million. I ain't here to win ya, I am here because I have been here for years and I love the mission of this site. But the toxicity you spread here will be met with the condescension and plutonium because I have the same right to respond to your vomit as you have to post it.

    No You Said Miserable Mind (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:05:15 AM EST
    I do care about lumping every Obama supporter into the miserable mind you have.
    I guess somehow you think that is better.

    Toxic:  I have the same right to respond to your vomit as you have to post it.

    Pot meet kettle.  


    I take no issue with that (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:08:51 AM EST
    because my opinions to some of you would have to be comprhended as vomit. The difference is that I am not bashing Hillary supporters en masse. I am not bashing HIllary. I am communicating directly with the person i take issue with.

    Alrighty. I have not insulted you at all. (none / 0) (#99)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:52:57 AM EST
    And the fact that you call my comments vomit tells me all I need to know about you.  Lovely.  

    you need us (none / 0) (#110)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:55:59 AM EST
    too bad too late, yes, I consider that vomit. Some might call it extortion, others histrionic. I call it vomit.

    Well then go on ahead..... (none / 0) (#80)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:46:29 AM EST
    ...express yourself.

    "look at 18 months at my postings" (none / 0) (#131)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:05:23 AM EST
    could you just kill me instead?

    see now that is funny (none / 0) (#132)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:06:12 AM EST
    and not insulting.

    Well (none / 0) (#90)
    by Nadai on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:49:16 AM EST
    that totally convinces me that Obama supporters are really not a bunch of nasty jerks like I thought.

    You are right (none / 0) (#95)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:51:38 AM EST
    all the 35 nasty posts in here, oh wait they are from Hillary supporters, never mind.

    I agree with the one suggestion. (none / 0) (#122)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:02:51 AM EST
    Go thou out into the blogosphere and preach to thy brethren and sistren that Unity is not won with "Billary" and "deluded" and other disrespectful words.

    Cuz they sure don't listen to us when we tell them.


    Why should I (none / 0) (#130)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:05:20 AM EST
    this is my home. When I see it here, I will take the same approach sans insults.

    that was snark and a way of telling (none / 0) (#133)
    by hellothere on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:07:36 AM EST
    you that your posts are way out of line.

    Yes it was (none / 0) (#138)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:09:47 AM EST
    but it was very funny as well.

    You are right rooge....Many obama supporters (none / 0) (#108)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:55:52 AM EST
    have turned into horrible human beings.  It's a sad commentary when one side is willing to win at all costs while tearing down the opponent.  Winning just to win is pretty damn low if you ask me.

    Please... (5.00 / 6) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:27:17 AM EST
    I beg to differ.  Stop the sycophantic attempts to change the basis by which you have allegedly won.  The Obama campaign won through the purposeful demonization.  

    Your attempts to change the truth with silly posts are useless.  


    Seriously , Stellaaa! (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:33:49 AM EST
    Quit being soooo hysterical! ;)

    we have already discussed this (1.00 / 0) (#35)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:31:04 AM EST
    you are angry, and need help dealing with it. I urge you to find a negative post from me regarding Hillary. Until then, relax and breathe, try and deal with your anger. Perhaps typing is how you vent, nothing wrong with that i spose.

    Just read your own comment (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by sarahfdavis on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:36:47 AM EST
    even when you're supposedly being civil you ooze condesencion and nastiness. i can't vote for the man when he has inspired and even behaved as most of you do. and yes, i've had the same horrible experience as some of the other posteres...the Obama supporters are bullies and hateful. no thanks, not gonna be part of the toxicity.

    another angry one (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:40:08 AM EST
    thanks for your input, I will keep it on file.

    Maybe you are one exemption to the rule. If so (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by feet on earth on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:56:30 AM EST
    I suggest that you should not waste you time here preaching to the  believers in Hillary.  Go convert you compañeros

    Maybe that is your problem (none / 0) (#125)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:03:59 AM EST
    you need an echo chamber. I need my opinions and thought process challenged, and need that from people who think differently. I don't know that I have seen a better or harder worker than Armando and Jeralyn has provided at her time and expense a forum for issues that really matter to me, for 5 years. I value the dissent voices on this site as much as those that would agree with me the issues of crime and punishment and the political direction of this country. I need not go to an echo chamber, I am right where I need to be.

    if I needed a mental health counselor to (none / 0) (#141)
    by feet on earth on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:13:38 AM EST
    analyze my problem, it certainly would not be you.

    Are you one (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by samanthasmom on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:37:55 AM EST
    of the paid Obama supporters who are supposed to go to pro-Hillary blogs and woo us?  If so, you're not worth what you're getting paid. We'll deal with our anger at the voting booth in November.

    lol (none / 0) (#66)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:41:38 AM EST
    I have been at this site for nearly 5 years. How long have you been here? I am paid by me. Here is my plea, please vote for who your heart tells you to vote for.

    I'll vouch for that (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:48:04 AM EST
    JLivingston has been here since very early on. I often don't agree with him, but that's okay. On the other hand, JLivingston, can you please disagree without put-downs of the other readers here? Thanks.

    Is calling me vomitous okay now? (none / 0) (#101)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:53:37 AM EST
    my apologies (none / 0) (#102)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:53:53 AM EST
    will refrain from doing so. The problem is that there is the same Obama discussion every day about his supporters being brain dead et al. Civility has to go both ways and I think this thread is a clear indicator of the vitriol of that group.

    Did I say anything about his supporters being (none / 0) (#121)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:02:44 AM EST
    brain dead? NO. I did not. I gave an example of what I have seen. What I have read. That is all. You are the one that went on a rampage calling me small-minded and vomitous.

    I know exactly what Stellaaa needs (none / 0) (#56)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:38:09 AM EST
    Obama to endorse Clinton and cede the nomination to her, pledging to support her in sickness and health, for better or worse...
    Oops!  Got carried away there.

    you do sound desperate this (none / 0) (#136)
    by hellothere on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:08:45 AM EST
    morning. sorry you are having a bad day. realit has a way of doing that.

    Really! Because one cursory glance (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Serene1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:34:08 AM EST
    at the comments section of the ro Obama blogs is enough to enlighten us of their exact feelibngs about Hillary, chelsea and Bill (yes they have not spared anyone).

    I admit (none / 0) (#36)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:31:47 AM EST
    I don't actually know any Obama supporters.  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

    Don't know.


    well (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:34:57 AM EST
    I know a lot and it is beginning to get difficult.  we cant talk about politics anymore.

    My very dearest friend (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by nashville on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:51:15 AM EST
    and whole family support Obama.  We used to discuss politics all of the time.  Now the subject is totally of-limits because we would like to stay friends.

    exactly (none / 0) (#116)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:58:17 AM EST
    Heh (none / 0) (#71)
    by Steve M on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:43:48 AM EST
    I have a good friend who is a big Obama supporter.  He is an incredibly nice guy so I can't imagine he'd ever have a bad word to say about Hillary.

    Recently I went to a Yankees game with him and he was asking me about the election and whether I thought the Rev. Wright thing would be a huge problem for Obama.  I told him that, you know, it's a big deal for some people but I'm certainly hoping Obama would get past it.

    It was a nice conversation.  But when it came time for the 7th-inning stretch and we all stood up to sing "God Bless America," I found it hard to resist.  I gave him a little nudge.  "No no no," I mouthed the words...


    Bad, bad Steve! (none / 0) (#91)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:49:27 AM EST
    I'm usually perfectly polite to Obama supporters.

    But if they pull out Talking Points or insult women singly or collectively, then buh-bye civility!


    It was a weak moment! (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Steve M on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:55:11 AM EST
    I'm a terrible human being. :)

    Sorry (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:34:24 AM EST
    but all the Obama supporters I knew are drunk on Hillary hate. Of course, now many of them regret voting for Obama post Wright.

    yet here is a post (none / 0) (#83)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:47:36 AM EST
    with 20 comments in a row and not one bad word about HIllary, about post after post bashing Obama supporters. Pot meet kettle. Still waiting for my posts bashing Hillary and her family. Like the one where I say there is no stronger VP candidate in the democratic party.

    If you want to know (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Serene1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:55:14 AM EST
    the true meaning of bashing, please visit any pro Obama blog.
    Here more than bashing we criticize. You have to understand most of us have been literally pushed into a corner and ostracized by the liberal blogs we used to believe in because we supported Hillary. We all came here after being constantly harrassed and hounded out. Here it was a a kind of safe haven and let me tell you the harshest of criticisim of Obama here still pales in comparison to the mildest of criticism of Hillary there.

    It is not happening here (none / 0) (#119)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:00:13 AM EST
    so why bring your bashing here? Take it there. I see some blinders in here from Obama supporters but I do not see bashing. What i see is the same attacks on a daily basis and I like seeing the ten angry posters get angrier. Most have posted 300 times "I will never vote for Obama", "Obama supporters are idiots" blah blah blah. As long as the conversation starts in the sewer I will wear my galoshes. When it rises to the level of proper discourse, I will gladly put on my penny loafers. Stupid is as stupid does.

    Well neither does any of your messages (none / 0) (#142)
    by Serene1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:14:01 AM EST
    rise above the 'Oh! this is an Obama bashing blog' theme. All your messages are variation of the same.

    Of course they are (none / 0) (#144)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:16:45 AM EST
    Because this site is supposed to be about progressive dialogue, and the posters who make it about obama supporter bashing take that away. To me, you are all seasonal shoppers and will be gone in a few months and the site will improve tremendously. there are several new posters who provide thought provoking opinions and that is refreshing. You are not one of them.

    Obama bashing here is mild.... (none / 0) (#149)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:30:58 AM EST
    ...if it crosses the line it is deleted. That's why I take offense at posts that pile on TalkLeft posters because if you look at No Quarter and others you will see the Obama bashing that rivals the Clinton bashing on HuffPo and DKos. So I guess, being real and not snarky here, that is what ticks me off about some of your posts. Yeah I know that some Hillary supporters are nasty, but for the most part that's not those of us who are here, so why bring that here?

    then go back up the thread (none / 0) (#150)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:33:55 AM EST
    because that is not a correct version of history. This thread clearly demonstrates that there are some posters here who constantly bring that vomit here. I am just happy to contribute.

    I wish I could vote for the VP (none / 0) (#96)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:52:11 AM EST
    separately.  That way, if Clinton gets on the ticket on the VP, I could vote against her.  I would too.

    Well, unless Gore was the P choice.  I would be a little sad, but Gore understands teamwork, so she would be fine.


    Actually, (none / 0) (#97)
    by pie on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:52:42 AM EST
    there is no stronger presidential candidate in the democratic party.

    Obama doesn't compare to her, as he's shown us in the last few months.  In terms of experience, grasp of knowledge about the issues, confidence, fearlessness, determination and leadership, she's demonstrated that she's the better candidate again and agan.


    Edwards is but a mere politician... (none / 0) (#152)
    by AX10 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:11:56 AM EST
    He said all the votes were cast, even though there were a few contests left and FL/MI have not been resolved.

    A True Champion (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by talex on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:00:51 AM EST
    never quits. Even when others say you are down. You sprint to the finish line with your arms raised with honor...

    with your opponent looking over their shoulder as you breath down there neck.

    And if by fate were on your side you silence the crowd as the judges examine the photo finish and declare you - The Winner.

    That's because she's confident (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by DWCG on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:01:05 AM EST
    She can take the popular vote and will pivot to Obama complaining about bureaucratic rules, while she can actual claim to be the true will of the voters...and a stronger general election candidate.

    Actually (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:27:08 AM EST
    it reminds me of the rumors out there that there's something fatal to Obama's campaign.

    Anyway, I think there's enough that's known to make him lose in the fall once the GOP 527's start.


    Hillary's a Sticker -- it's only one of her assets (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by katiebird on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:01:24 AM EST
    But it's turned out to be the most important one.

    Do people really think she's going to take the advice of The Quitter's club and get out?

    It sure doesn't look likely.

    Wow. Great article. (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:01:54 AM EST
    Totally true too. I love her so much. And I came into this election with only a slight preference for her. I loved Bill but I was also into Obama a bit and Edwards a little bit more. But I always supporter her first.  And after this primary fight, I LOVE her. I am in AWE of her. She inspires me.  I saw her last week and can't stop thinking about how amazing she is.  She is my hero.

    Check Out This Brave PA Talk Show Host, Steve Corb (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by SunnyLC on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:03:32 AM EST
    Check Out This Brave PA Talk Show Host, Steve Corbett...(Link to WILK-FM, Scranton, PA) posted by SunnyLC
    05.16.2008 - 09:59 am

    Check Out This Brave PA Talk Show Host, Steve Corbett...(Link to WILK-FM, Scranton, PA)


    Hat tip to Riverdaughter over at The Confluence for breaking this news and "Nana" who first reported it and also posted her report here a TM...

    Seems there's one very brave talk show host in Scranton, PA who is firmly in Hillary Clinton's camp and has had it with being called a "racist."


    Well, that's an infuriating little article... (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by kempis on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:05:17 AM EST
    I wish someone would note that a little more than half the votes cast in this nomination contest have been for "poor Hillary."

    Her enemies try to diminish her with pity. The rest of us, who aren't intimidated by her strength, admire her.

    In November, we'll be hearing about Poor Obama....All that money, all that power, and nothing to show for it except a trek back to the Senate to rev up his PAC again for a challenge to President McCain in 2012.


    Obama will have wide tire tracks (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by BarnBabe on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:21:34 AM EST
    on the back of his blue shirt, rolled up sleeves. And most likely a few wheel chair tracks too. Plenty of high heel gorgings and cane tip polka dots.

    LOL, BarnBabe....n/t (none / 0) (#151)
    by kempis on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:52:26 AM EST
    Well I'm Not Into Making Any Politician A Hero (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:07:54 AM EST
    As someone who started out in the ABH crowd, she has garnered my support and my respect. Here is hoping she turns out to be the tortoise in this race.

    You were an ABHer? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:18:19 AM EST
    Okay.  That's good.  I never knew one who changed status.

    There is hope for change.  (Don't ask me about unity though.)


    Unity? Heh. (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by pie on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:30:47 AM EST
    I was told last night by a rabid fan that Obama isn't responsible for unifying the dems.

    Yes, becase a Leader should (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:34:11 AM EST
    um, do something...I can't remember what leaders are supposed to do!

    Can someone help me out here?  What is it that leaders are supposed to do?


    Apparently (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Nadai on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:55:18 AM EST
    a Leader should simply bask in the glow of his sycophants' adoration.

    The unity (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:38:09 AM EST
    pony is broken. There's no other way to say it.

    Just pulled up lame. (none / 0) (#68)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:42:11 AM EST
    With a lot of TLC and treatment, it might be rehabilitated by August.

    Perhaps we should have a fundraiser for the Unity Pony?


    Frankly, (none / 0) (#72)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:44:14 AM EST
    after the GOP gets done with the unity pony I think it will be drug to glue factory in Nov.

    what was that unity ponys name (none / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:48:38 AM EST
    Eight Bells? or something like that?

    Capt. Howdy..... (none / 0) (#100)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:53:20 AM EST
    ...I usually laugh at your jokes, but that one made me sad. :-(

    sorry (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:03:44 AM EST
    It was bad and uncalled for.
    I apologize to everyone.

    I forgive you. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:20:13 AM EST
    Now That Is A Winning Strategy If I Ever Heard (none / 0) (#103)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:54:34 AM EST
    one. Unfortunately, it seems that Obama's campaign feels the same way. The current meme is that all those disgruntled voters (25% - 50%) will get over their "little tiff" and come home in November because they have no choice. Edwards or someone else will win over the blue collar workers. The right VP will get the job done. Obama just needs to keep doing what he has been doing and everything will be fine. If they ride that train to November, practice saying President McCain.

    I've Seen Many People Who Started Out As ABH (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:44:28 AM EST
    on the blogs who wound up voting for Hillary. I'm one of those people who started out the primary season in the category of "None of the Above" and was one of the last hold outs in the "Waiting for Gore" group. While waiting, I did a lot of reading and research about the candidates and their positions. Hillary was never on my short list and Obama was removed for many of the same issue related reasons I don't want him to be the nominee now. I Moved to a tepid Edwards based on his domestic policies positions especially health care.  I also found when I did my lists of pros and cons, Hillary ranked much higher in the pro category than Obama. Edwards dropped out before Super Tuesday and Obama pushed me over the edge with his "Harry and Louise" ads. My respect for Hillary has grown since that time and my concerns about Obama have increased, so I have never regretted my decision.

    Gore => Edwards => Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:58:06 AM EST
    Skipped past Obama mostly because OH voted post Superlative Tuesday.  That was about when the hyperpartisanship boiled over.  Thought briefly about giving Kucinich my vote - got a sweet spot for a principled politician.  Mister Anti War hisself.

    Like I've said so many times "If people really were all that riled about the AUMF, they'd vote for the man who voted against it.".  


    Right There With Ya... (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by AmyinSC on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:07:55 AM EST
    She's my hero, too.  I have always liked Hillary.  I voted for Bill twice in the hope that Hillary would run one day.  Her strength in the face of so much hatred is awe-inspiring.  Her continued good humor when the boys are all clamoring for the girl to return to the kitchen helps to take the edge off of what has become one of the nastiest campaigns I have seen in terms of prejudice.  (I am a lifelong Democrat, but I am fully ashamed of this Party and its blanket acceptance of so much misogyny and sexism.  I fully intend to change my registration.)  The manner in which she has carried herself in this primary is most impressive.

    I hope she can still pull this out.  I want her as my president.  Obama cannot hold a CANDLE to her, IMHO.  And we will not win back the White House without her, also IMHO.  She is most definitely the One for whom I have been waiting...

    Anyone see Billo last (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by zfran on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:08:44 AM EST
    night with the 2 Hillary supporting women who are so outraged at the treatment of Hillary and women they have (are) started a movement to boycott NBC. They held up a sign with 4 email addresses on it one for PA, IN, OH and I cannot remember the 4th all with the address "hcfpinoh@gmail.com" They said they'd consider voting for McCain if Obama got the nomination. I sent an e-mail to the address in ohio, but haven't received an answer yet.

    Let's nominate her. (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by masslib on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:09:14 AM EST
    Face it, Obama peaked in February.  We don't have to nominate him.  

    There is only one way Hillary loses. (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:25:31 AM EST
    As VP.

    If she doesn't get the nom, I hope she does her duty campaigning for Obama and then goes back to the Senate.

    If Obama loses, his political career will have peaked as a first term Senator.

    If Obama wins, Hillary can hold his feet to the fire.  

    If Clinton runs, she might lose but she'll make McCain work like a dog for every last vote.  When it comes to looking good under pressure and sheer stamina, my money is on Clinton.

    If Obama runs, we'll be watching votes hemorrhage away and McCain can play the pander game as well as Obama.


    McCain (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:41:17 AM EST
    is already moving to center. Hillary is percieved to be in the center. Obama for all his right wing talking points is perceived to be a child of the far left.

    Yup. (none / 0) (#87)
    by ruffian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:48:28 AM EST
    MCcain is sounding more like Clinton every day.  He nows how to beat Obnama.

    Here's the master himself (none / 0) (#127)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:04:01 AM EST
    Go to the link at noquarter (yes, yes, I know) and scroll down to the post "Why Obama Can't Win But Hillary Can" and watch  the short interview by Greta of Karl Rove.  Now, we know Karl isn't going to play his complete hand, but he gives a teensy sample of what McCain's handbook is looking like.

    The Funny Thing Is That The Republicans Always (none / 0) (#143)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:15:29 AM EST
    send clear signals about how they are going to defeat the Dem nominee and the Dems always say that will never work. It almost always does and the Dems always seem so surprised. Strange that the Dems seem so willing to stick to a losing pattern.

    thank you (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:12:04 AM EST
    this is excellent

    The funny thing (none / 0) (#51)
    by BarnBabe on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:36:17 AM EST
    I live close enough to Scranton and yet it was on this site that I first heard about this yesterday. Must be those 60/70's XM stations I listen to in the car. Memories of Chicken Man. He's everywhere, he's everywhere. So I looked at the Scranton Times on line and a few TV sites and no mention. But, if this becomes national, then it will be like the Pennsylvania Polka in Groundhog Day, the movie. It started in Scranton, it's now #1.

    If they keep up this poor, poor Hillary meme... (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:17:43 AM EST
    ...they will alienate even more Clinton supporters. And the more the MSM supports Obama the more they will enable the Republicans to run against the "liberal" media, which has always been a winner for them and this time it might actually be a credible argument. I don't think they are going to jump on the McCain train after all. I think they are going to stay on the Obama train until the end...now if he wins the election I predict they will turn on him in a heartbeat..but that's another story.

    Naw (none / 0) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:42:21 AM EST
    I've already seen McCain beat Obama in the media narrative time and again. Mostly because Obama has very poor responses to a jab from McCain.

    Well, by the way they are acting... (none / 0) (#153)
    by AX10 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:24:44 AM EST
    I would say that the media is being liberal, at this time at least.

    Poor Poor America (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:24:26 AM EST
    It is sad when a leader like Hillary at these times is pushed aside by such a contest.  At a time when we need a competent and experienced leader we hand over the struggle to a man that has little proven skills to govern and questionable core values.  

    A viral MSM and campaign have demonized one person and sanctified another.  

    Poor poor America.  Once again choosing the second best with the helping hand of the media, the paternalistic hand of the party leadership and the abdication of all reason by the weak kneed left.  

    We have not chosen anyone yet. (none / 0) (#26)
    by masslib on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:26:38 AM EST
    We ought to nominate the stronger candidate.  

    Hillary has truly evolved (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Serene1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:24:29 AM EST
    during this campaign. I was no doubt excited by her run initially itself but I was also excited about Obama's run and like everybody I too thought it was an embarrassment of riches initially. However when Obama started touting Hillary's dislikeability factor as an argument against her I lost all respect for Obama.
    Hillary won me over with her tenaciousness and her dignity against all odds. The way she has been treated by MSM and liberal elites has been apalling. Short of calling her a terrorist they have branded her everything else. She still stood calm and sure against such name calling in fact I have never seen her more stronger or more surer of herself. To me also she is a Hero and a good role model. And that is why from the bottom of my heart I believe if she looses the nomination she should not accept the veep position. She should instead prepare for 2012. We are not going to give up this fight.

    Hillary has not evolved (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:38:56 AM EST
    we just got a chance to see her.  Unfiltered and in her just position.  

    Hillary needs to claim a "metric" (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by sarissa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:30:25 AM EST
    this year to have a solid claim to the nomination in 2012.  If she wins, say, the popular vote, she can more effectively claim that she should have been the nominee back in 2008.

    Which is fine by me - no sense in not letting the last few states and Puerto Rico vote anyway.

    If she wins the popular vote, (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:46:27 AM EST
    she should be the nominee. Not say she should have been. If she wins the popular vote, and doesn't get the nomination, then she, and we, can claim with full authority that Obama stole the nomination from her.

    Popular vote would be such a (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by ruffian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:46:36 AM EST
    huge victory for her, after all these years of being told she is too unpopular and unlikeable, etc.

    Can't wait to see the Obamabots spin their way around that. I have come to terms with the liklihood of his nomination, even though I think it is a DNC suicide pact, but I really want her to get that poular vote victory to show what a stupid farce this nomination process has been.


    maybe she will pull it out (none / 0) (#98)
    by sarissa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:52:42 AM EST
    I have high hopes for Puerto Rico myself.

    I'm voting for Hillary in PR but (none / 0) (#162)
    by TomLincoln on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:17:07 PM EST
    I'm not certain that she will win here. Old poll supposedly puts her in the lead, mainly on name recognition viz. Obama. I think it will not be a blow-out either way it goes. Also, and this is very important, there will be a far smaller turnout than Hillary camp has raised expectations about. A Democratic (or Republican) primary simply does not attract the level of voter participation that general elections here attract (which is usually very high). You can probably chalk that to several factors: (1) the parties here are more aligned against PR status issues (Commonwealth, Statehood, and Independence) than with stateside parties; (2) PR's admittedly colonial status makes people not care too much about voting in these presidential primaries, particularly when people in PR do not get to vote for President, and have no voting representation in Congress.

    The Obama spin will be (none / 0) (#104)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:54:59 AM EST
    "We won the caucuses!! We have the delegates!! Obama is the ONE!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!"

    Someone should take Obama aside and explain to him that the popular vote is what wins elections, not caucuses or delegates. And if Hillary is winning the popular vote in the primaries, then he won't be able to win it against McCain. He has too much baggage, and you can bet the GOP will pull out all the stops on their smear machine. Hillary has withstood it for years, and is pretty much bullet-proof. Obama is made of tissue-paper by comparison. If he gets the nomination, I am going to write-in Hillary and spend the campaign season laughing at the GOP taking down Obama, piece by piece. When they are done with him, he will be lucky to get re-elected to the Senate. Heh.


    If she wins popular vote (none / 0) (#75)
    by felizarte on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:44:33 AM EST
    She should be the Nominee.  The country needs her now.  We cannot afford to have it get worse.  

    GMTA...LOL nt (none / 0) (#82)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:47:22 AM EST
    Count me as another convert - (5.00 / 4) (#115)
    by Anne on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:58:15 AM EST
     I never thought I would be supporting Hillary.  I thought she had too much baggage, I was concerned that if elected, she would spend her entire presidency fighting off the "Bill's really calling the shots" charges, and I thought we had too much on our plates to get bogged down in non-stop Clinton-bashing.

    I was pretty ticked off when it became clear that Edwards - my original choice - was not going to be allowed to contend, that the media was deliberately freezing him out in order to set up the Clinton-Obama steel cage death-match.  Ticked off not just because he was cut out of the race, but because I knew it was going to force me to choose between Obama and Clinton.  Sure, there were people who said, "why choose - just vote for whoever is the last person standing and don't worry about it," but I like to know who and what I am voting for, so staying out of it was not an option for me.

    What ended up happening for me is that I found myself defending her against the attacks of the pro-Obama forces; it forced me to do some research, to dig for the truth, and in the process, I found my candidate.  Oh, I did some checking on Obama as well, but that did not help his cause with me.  I cannot put my finger on it - other than to claim instinct and intuition - but I have never trusted Obama, and apparently, I have good reason to feel that way.

    Hillary is the last person whose name should be prefaced with "poor, poor;" she doesn't see herself that way, and I do not believe she wastes valuable time and energy feeling sorry for herself, or looking for others to blame for wherever she is at this point.  Somehow, after almost 8 years of a president who never holds himself accountable, who whines about hard work, who thinks giving up golf is an appropriate measure of his solidarity with military families, I want someone in the Oval Office who gets what being president really means.  That it's not just about power - although there is plenty of it there - that it's not just about an agenda - although every president has one - it's about us, all of us.

    I think Hillary gets that, and I have to think that she gets it more now than she did when she started this adventure - which I cannot say about Obama.  The longer this has gone, the more out of touch he seems with real people; he knows things in an abstract, academic way, but not in a real, eye-to-eye, heart-to-heart kind of way - and pardon me, but I want a president who gets it.

    Hillary gets it.  

    shallow as i am (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by cpinva on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:58:21 AM EST
    (and trust me, i'm shallow to the core!), i've been a hillary admirer since '92, when she really first came on to the national public scene. she'll be a great president, for 8 years.

    edwards is a nice guy; smart, attractive, nice family, etc. he's also shown, twice, the public isn't buying what he's selling. if they were, we'd be discussing his chances in the GE seriously. and yet, we aren't. he reached his level of incompetence in the senate. i'm sure sen. obama appreciates his endorsement, i'm equally certain it will have a negligable effect on the final outcome.

    perhaps, Jlvngstn, you're correct; there are literally millions of obama supporters who just loves them some hillary! perhaps it's only those very few, who rabidly scream his name, while vilifying sen. clinton (the "man bites dog." theory of newspaper sales) that we see, read and hear about. perhaps.


    Given that there are few substantive policy (none / 0) (#23)
    by sarissa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:24:44 AM EST
    differences between Hillary and Obama, why on earth would we want to perpetuate the idea that we will not vote for Obama?

    because there is still (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:32:34 AM EST
    time to nominate a winner.
    not much but still time.

    I agree, perhaps there will even be (none / 0) (#92)
    by sarissa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:49:32 AM EST
    some super gaffe that tilts it back to Hillary.

    But there's not that much time and once everyone has voted and a nominee is selected folks need to vote their ideals and not their tribal affiliations.


    my dislike and distrust of the gang (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:55:52 AM EST
    attempting to hijack the democratic party has absolutely  nothing to do with anything "tribal".
    it has everything to do with policy.
    I simply disagree completely with you assertion of no difference.
    and even if there was no difference in their "stated" policies, I dont believe a word he says.
    I think he will sell us out to the republicans at his first opportunity.
    just MO.

    Um (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:33:08 AM EST
    Because many of us won't.

    Obama (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:39:46 AM EST
    isn't selling policy. He's selling himself. He wants an Obama party not a democratic party. I think that his platform is a joke because when he's asked about it he can't even explain it himself.

    Because your preamble "No substantial (5.00 / 7) (#65)
    by feet on earth on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:41:37 AM EST
    policy difference" is wrong.  

    I'll give you 15 million of them: one for each person not covered by his discriminatory health care plan.

    The "non substantial policy difference" is a meme many Dems never both into.


    Fair enough, Obama's plan is clearly weaker, but (none / 0) (#85)
    by sarissa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:47:47 AM EST
    is McCain really preferable to Obama?

    No, no and no!


    Wrong question. (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by echinopsia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:08:42 AM EST
    is McCain really preferable to Obama?

    The question is, should we reward the Obamacans and the DNC for betraying their principles, issues, party and core constituencies?

    We shouldn't. If Obama is the nom, that's telling me the DNC not only doesn't want to win, it doesn't want my support.

    OTOH, is Obama any better than McCain?

    Got my doubts about that one. He doesn't really stand for Democratic issues. He doesn't stand for anything other than himself.


    Speaking for myself I do feel (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Serene1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:20:23 AM EST
    McCain is preferable to Obama. And on this I am thinking as an American and not as a Democrat. The country is in a mess and we need an experienced able hand to guide it especially in Iraq. Hillary by all counts is the best candidate and that is what baffles me- when did Democrats start preferring cool factor over merits.
    But if Hillary looses the nomination then McCain is best of the worst. He at least has more experience and today that will count.

    diffs are not small (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by LCaution on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:49:40 PM EST
    That's what Obama's supporters like to say.  Try health care for one: universal vs. not universal.  And, from the occasional stuff I've read on the web and elsewhere, senior Dems. don't really want universal health care & Obama's support for it is tepid.

    I'd go on, but the main difference between Obama and McCain is simple: experience.

    Obama has none.  McCain may have the wrong kind, for a Dem., but he has it.

    Don't tell me that Obama is smart and that's all that matters.  JFK, with just as much smarts and a far more impressive resume than Obama, made a huge mistake with the Bay of Pigs.  Luckily for us, the Cuban Missile Crisis came later.

    Bill Clinton, with years as a Gov. (yea, small state, but he made some mistakes there, too, that he learned from) and Oxford and the FOBs still crucially misunderstood Washington which led to some major policy implementation mistakes.

    Jimmy Carter?  An incredibly decent man, an engineer, with experience as a Southern gov.  Disaster as President.  (blamed for things that were not his fault but that he didn't know how to respond to.)

    The Shrub?  Still more experience than Obama although, admittedly, probably a lot less smart.  Disaster.  Manipulated by Rove and Cheney.

    McCain might be a lousy President, too. Probably will be. But the POTUS shouldn't be given to a guy who started running for Pres. after one year in the Senate.  And, please, don't tell me about his community organizing and time in the Illinois legislature (where he accomplished nothing until the Dems. took control and he got himself a powerful patron).

    Oh, yea, you might want to tell me one thing he did for the poor Blacks in his district who had slum landlords.


    Deconstructing.... (none / 0) (#111)
    by coolit on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:56:05 AM EST
    the candidates, which is only possible to do now, because we didn't know enough about them until now, is scary. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

    Barack's campaign is primarily about 2 things:

    Hope and Change!

    On those 2 points, he is such a hypocrite.  Using the same tactics he campaigns against is the lowest form of low.  I'd rather a person be honest and attack me then never seem them attack me.  Hiding in the shadows and attacking is much more dangerous because no one will ever see it coming.


    Besides hope and change, Barack is just as bad a candidate as John Kerry was. In fact, he is much worse.  His grasp of the issues (the one's which I agree with him on) is thin at best.


    You forgot (none / 0) (#120)
    by pie on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:01:02 AM EST

    you're right (none / 0) (#123)
    by coolit on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:03:29 AM EST
    i feel so unified with Barack and all his supporters right now!!

    Love that song, thanks! (none / 0) (#145)
    by jerry on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:17:54 AM EST

    i come in peace (none / 0) (#157)
    by npj08 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:25:42 PM EST
    hey everyone (waving small white flag).  I come here humbly and hope not to create and undue anger or tension.  This is my first post to any board, so I apologize in advance if it is too long.  My purpose for this post is to try to get some understanding from the pro-Hillary group about the extreme vitriol some seem to have for Obama.  

    First, a little background about myself, so that I establish my perspective and bias right up front.  I am a 39 yr old, African-American male, with a professional degree.  I am married with 4 kids (the latest 3 weeks ago), with a middle class economic upbringing.  I've always felt it my civic duty to vote but only have become intensely interested in politics over the last 4 years after becoming disgusted with how the Bush administration was destroying our Constitution and our country.  My leanings tend to be left on social issues and towards the middle/slight right on economic issues.  The sites I tend to visit daily are DailyKos, Politico, Politfact and HuffingtonPost (again, this is just to establish my bias and not to start an argument).  I also tend to listen to TalkLeft on Sirius radio and POTUS and AirAmerica on XM.

    At the beginning of this campaign cycle, I was extremely excited about multiple candidates in the race.  I really liked Joe Bidens foreign policy expertise, John Edwards policies on poverty, Mike Gravel's candidness, and Dennis Kucinich's overall policy with regards to taxes and Iraq.  However, my 3 favorite candidates were Hilary Clinton, Bill Richardson, and Barack Obama.  All the candidates had similar positions on the big issues, but I truly wanted to see a minority as President (no offense to white men), because of the different perspective it would bring to the White House.  It would also provide inspiration to that group and all America to know that the highest office in the land is not off limits to anyone.  I can only speak from my own perspective with regards to being black, but I also grew up with two sisters and know the kind of gender discrimination they have faced.  So, I narrowed down my choices to Hillary (49%) and Obama (51%).  The diffence between the two really came down to reading his book and really plugging into how he made decisions.  It reminded me of how I think, in terms of trying my best to put myself in someone else's shoes to understand their position.  Also, in all honesty, the possibility of having a Black President (man or woman) in my lifetime, was a part of my decision making process.

    Now at the beginning, I really didn't think he had a shot at winning, but I followed the campaign and determined I would vote for him in the Md primary (if he made it that far).  However, I was fully prepared and excited to see Hillary become our eventual President.  I just wanted to see Obama do well for his future.

    After Iowa, I became emboldened about Obama's chances, but was still anticipating and excited about the prospects of a 2nd Clinton White House (big Bill fan, at the time).  My feelings started to change right after South Carolina.  When Bill made his comments about Jesse Jackson also winning South Carolina, I was sincerely disappointed.  I saw the newscast that evening and upon hearing the comments immediately perceived what I felt he was trying to do.  Again, I am only giving my perception and opinion from my background, but my understanding of his comments was that this was code to narrowly identify Barack as the Black candidate to potential future White voters.  You see, I know how brilliant of a man and astute politician Bill Clinton is.  To me, he doesn't do anything by accident.  He could have compared Barack to any other previous winner of the South Carolina primary, but seem to me to pick Jesse Jackson because of what that name means to White America.  I am not saying that this is a correct assessment, only Bill Clinton and God knows his motivation, but just trying to explain how I perceived it.  But at this point, I didn't want to hold this against Hillary because this was a surrogate and not her.  What really made me start losing respect for Hillary was when she started propping up McCain (Commander in Chief test, etc.) in her attempts to demean Obama.  I just felt this was hitting below the belt because it would tremendously hurt the party's general election bid should he become the candidate.  I looked pass the Bosnia stuff as just politics (the Republicans have done much worse).  I also didn't like what perceived to me to be her campaigns constantly trying to change the goal posts on securing the nomination.  First it was big states vs small states, primaries vs caucuses, swing states vs. non-swing states, electoral votes vs delegates, counting MI & FL, and now whether 2025 should be the amount of delegates for the nomination.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see any voter disenfranchised, but in fairness there has to be some kind of penalty in breaking the rules.  I truly believe that we have to come up with something to make sure FL and MI delegates are seated, but it should be something fair to both candidates.  I honestly just can't understand the Clinton campaign's contention that seating MI as is (knowing Obama wasn't on the ballot) is fair.  I ask everyone here to pretend for a second that you didn't know any of the people involved (say the names were Smith and Baker) and look again at the Michigan scenario.  Would it really be a fair contention that the results be counted as is if one of the parties wasn't on the ballot?  I could honestly say that even if the positions were reversed (Obama was on the ballot and not Hillary), I would not support Obama saying it should count as is.  But these are my main reasons why I became seriously disenchanted with Hillary.  It was specifically because of my reactions to the actions of her and her campaign.  It wasn't because of what other people thought of her or my dislike of her supporters.  I never held that against her.  That's why it seriously confuses me why many Hillary supporters say they won't support Obama if he is the candidate.  Many say it's because of his supporters or the perception that he some how took the nomination from Hillary.  I just don't get this.  At this point, if Hillary were to win the nomination, it would be because the Super delegates deemed she had the best chance to win the general election.  I don't dispute that this is legitimately within the rules, but to many it would give the perception that the nomination was taken from Obama because he is leading in every metric.    Yet still, there are many more Obama voters who would still vote for Hillary than the other way around.  Why do some feel that if Obama wins the nomination, he somehow stole it away from Clinton or are basing their vote on Obama's supporters attitudes versus anything Obama actually did.  Do they think McCain/Republican supporters are some how nicer or less insulting?  If so, you should listen to Sean Hannity's, Bill O'Reilly's or Rush Limbaughs call in show for an afternoon.  And I'm not talking about during the recent love fest they have had for Clinton to try to devide the Democratic party.  I am talking about the comments they made before Obama became the front runner or they would make later if Hillary secured the nomination.

    I am no longer a Hillary fan.  I can honestly say that I dislike her based on the explanation I laid out above.  However, I have not lost sight of the big picture.  If Hillary wins the nomination (even if done by superdelegate proxy), I would bite my tongue and still vote for her.  I cannot do another 4 years with a Republican White House and George Bush policies.  I also cringe at the thought of seeing more right wingers put on the Court and potentially have civil rights policies and Roe v Wade being overturned.

    I am not here to try to convert anyone or tell them how to vote.  I just sincerely want to understand where you all are coming from in terms of voting Republican and the dare I say hatred towards Obama.  If I have offended anyone in any way, I sincerely apologize in advance.  I truly appreciate everyone's patience with regards to my long post and hope it spawns a healthy discusssion.

    Democrat in 08

    sure (none / 0) (#159)
    by LCaution on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:30:53 PM EST
    Rise! Hillary, Rise! (none / 0) (#164)
    by bridget on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:07:19 PM EST
    Strongest Dem pol and candidate ever.

    Poor are those who refuse to admit it.