A Blogging Debate Via Telephone and Webcam:

Ann Althouse and I did a Bloggingheads TV diavlog yesterday. It's almost an hour long -- we covered a lot of topics, and they break it down by segments. If any of them interest you, feel free to check it out.

  • The Loneliness of the Pro-Hillary Blogger
  • Why Hillary should stay in (until June July anyway)
  • Is Hillary a wounded wife, or does she just play one on TV?
  • Ann defends making fun of Hillary and her gender
  • Jeralyn says rape is about violence, not sex; Ann begs to differ
  • Lethal Injection Drugs, Dogs and Euthanasia
  • Child-porn case raises questions about the role of juries
  • An appreciation of Charlton Heston, actor and activist

< Bush Signs Second Chance Act Into Law | American Idol Gives Back: Open Thread >
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    no offense Jeralyn... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by white n az on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:41:42 PM EST
    No thanks

    I sat through the one with her and Garance and like her blog, she is pointless. She is at her best when she focuses on all the women trying to seduce Bill Clinton.

    yeah (none / 0) (#7)
    by Nasarius on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:56:54 PM EST
    Unfortunately, I have to agree. I love Glenn Greenwald too, but I really can't stomach the audio and video clips he occasionally posts with him debating some right-wing nutjob.

    By the way, wouldn't "Bloggerheads" have been the appropriate name?


    I adore his letter exchanges though. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:33:13 PM EST
    All kinds - the thoughtful exchanges, the rabid knee jerk responses, the "I'm sticking to my story." exchanges.

    Glenn is amazingly fair about his various correspondence.  Most other bloggers would just cherry pick for "gotcha!" bits but Glenn lets us see more than that.


    Sex v. Violence in Rape (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:51:33 PM EST
    Jeralyn, I'm with you.  There was a prominent local news story a few years back tracking the trial of a young man who had raped a very old woman.  What struck me was that the man was so attractive.....I do think rape is about violence (and sex as an expression of violence, of course).

    Personally (none / 0) (#24)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:32:51 PM EST
    I think it depends.  Stranger rape is totally about violence.  Date rape much of the time, I don't think so much.  Depends how you define rape, too.  If every time a woman has sex when she doesn't particularly want to is defined as rape, which some do, then virtually every married woman on the planet has been raped by her husband on occasion, which is nonsense.

    No (none / 0) (#29)
    by Davidson on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:53:01 AM EST
    Rape is obviously not about a woman who doesn't want to has sex and ultimately decides to have sex with someone since that obviously involves her consent.

    Rape is not about "sex"--ever.  Even in cases where the victim is unconscious, never remembers it, and the only violence that occurs is the physical violation of her body, it is about denying her the ability to have sovereignty over her very self.  There is no more basic human right than sovereignty over your own body.

    Rape is the physical, sexual, and psychological torture of another person using sexuality as the weapon to express that violent (misogynistic) hatred.*  Just because it involves sexual pleasure or desire doesn't negate the effect.**  Especially, since sexual desire is vulnerable to conditioning (i.e. it is not a pure reflection of "nature" and even if it was rape is obviously coercive, which is in itself the antithesis of what is natural) and also when you realize that rapists get off on the control, torture, violence, and utter degradation.

    *According to RAINN, 9/10 rape victims are girls and women and obviously gender is the deciding factor in whether the attacker rapes them.
    **If that were true, than any of us could commit any crime and excuse it by simply ensuring we masturbate while we commit it.


    No, not bloggingheads! Can't do it. Won't do it. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by jerry on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:56:46 PM EST
    It has nothing to do with Garance and Althouse.  The entire format is just horribly, utterly terrible.

    That said, having none of the insight of a rapist, I think the insistence that rape is only about power or violence is some misplaced anxiety from feminist opponents of rape.  If it was purely and only and solely about sex, it would still be completely wrong.  But I get the impression that if anyone acknowledges it is about sex to any degree, opponents of rape are worried it will somehow justify rape.

    I also think that the question of rape: violence or sex has a legacy from radical feminists that portray all penetrative sexual acts as acts of violence committed against women, that assume an oppressive man and a submissive woman.

    I suspect rape behavior falls along a spectrum, a combination of power/violence and sex.

    But still, I'm just not going to watch a bloggingheads.

    she was hard to follow -Althouse (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by thereyougo on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:10:27 AM EST
    I found it frustrating to listen, she seemed inattentive and didn't face the camera like the professional that our Jeralyn is.

    So, on one hand Jeralyn had the stronger presence of the 2, and maybe I heard a bit of envy of TL traffic?

    just sayin'

    I don't understand this country's choice of (none / 0) (#2)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:43:26 PM EST
    death penalty mechanisms. Why not simply hook the person up to an IV and put a lethal dose of morphine into them? That would be painless, right?
    Is there an idea that the criminal must be conscious when executed?

    Believe or not, I don't believe I had seen (none / 0) (#3)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:46:22 PM EST
    your photo before, Jeralyn. You look great.

    thanks Jeralyn for fighting the good battles (none / 0) (#5)
    by scorbs on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:53:50 PM EST
    This'd be worth it to watch; i'm amazed Jeralyn's willing to deal with this heady difficult issues, particularly with others who would try my patience.  Kudos to that kind of strength, courage, and patience!!!

    I watched some of it (none / 0) (#8)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:24:34 PM EST
    and I kept saying, Ann, would you please let her finish!  That was a little frustrating.

    But it was a good interview.

    Gak! (none / 0) (#9)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:24:40 PM EST

    If you use such a nice picture of yourself, you should use a nice pic of Ann.  Otherwise it reeks of slanted hit job.

    Sexism. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:29:56 PM EST
    Honestly, I don't know of Ann but her argument that Hillary is sexist is convoluted.  I don't understand what her point was.  But Jeralyn you handled it really well.  You were attentive and responsive, to her comments whereas I don't think she was.  

    She kept insisting that Hillary in her self was unpopular figure.  Well, what she fails to realize is that Hillary did not have a chance before running for Senate of being just her.  All the other things before were irrelevant cause they were filters through Bill.  She earned her credentials in all the work she did and in the Senate, it' was not Bill.  

    Ok, Ann is trying too much to be one of the boys so it's ok to trash women. " Oh, those old like feminists are so weak line"  we get so sensitive--then she talks about the Clintons doing things to trash all the work that was done against harrassment etc.  

    You just saved yourself from reading (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:07:55 PM EST
    Althouse as a body of blogwork.  It's all pretty much as you called it here, when it's her call on politics.  Much striving to not be seen as a feminist or typical Madtown academic, etc.  (She's a prof in the law school, if on sabbatical now in the east, and probably more comfortable there.)

    There are occasional insightful posts from her, and her commenters can be good -- although the blog could benefit from a firm hand like Jeralyn's.

    And although she would not be caught dead saying good things about Clinton, Althouse is the proud mother of a Clinton caucus delegate in Texas -- and she has given her son's posts from that front good space to expose the shenanigans there that he has seen.  All in all, the Althouse blog can be worth a skim.


    Thanks.... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:24:44 PM EST
    I may loot at it , but it left a sour taste.  

    She takes great photos (none / 0) (#23)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:28:18 PM EST
    That's usually what I check out there. And some of her pop culture posts.

    She's teaching at a New York law school this semester and then returns to Madison.

    I find Ann particularly interesting because we are close to the same age yet we obviously came of age in different universes. I really don't know anyone my age (other than cops or prosecutors, no offense to any who may be reading) whose views are so radically different from mine. Most of my acquaintances and friends have the same history and views I do -- having been shaped by events and culture of the time.  But, she's bright and quite pleasant to deal with and we had a good time planning the topics and doing the vlog.


    Jeralyn gracious as always. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:53:22 PM EST
    I can relate to what you are saying about the differences in world  view.  

    Professor in a law school?? (none / 0) (#33)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:14:22 PM EST
    Then she should get down on her knees and thank the old feminists that made it possible. Back in the day, the 60's and early 70's women couldn't get into law school, never mind find a job worth doing after they got out. Women were sent to college by their parents, not to get an education, but to catch a husband with one. The higher the educational level of the husband, the better life the wife is going to have. That's the way it used to be.

    For a boy to drop out of college was a disgrace and an aberration back then unless it was for financial reasons, the girls were expected to drop out as soon as they got engaged. Seriously, that is what it was like back then. Girls didn't take math classes, they took home economics.

    Ann Althouse is standing on the shoulders of the women who changed that dynamic. If it weren't for those old feminists, Ann would be a housewife, probably stoked to the gills on Valium to keep her from going out of her mind with boredom.


    It doesn't matter, the point is that she (none / 0) (#36)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:56:51 PM EST
    wouldn't be where she is without the "old feminists".

    Thanks Jeralyn for sharing that (none / 0) (#11)
    by athyrio on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:31:07 PM EST
    I was a volunteer for a few years on a rape crisis hotline and I totally agree that rape is about violence.... The stories I have heard would make your hair stand on end for sure....

    Jeralyn wins another one /nt (none / 0) (#14)
    by hhex65 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:47:19 PM EST

    If rape (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jgarza on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:54:44 PM EST
    is all about sex, isn't legalizing prostitution the solution to end rape?   I thought it was a commonly held belief that rape was about power and violence. I didn't even know that was disputable?

    Why should the same motivation explain (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:05:11 PM EST
    all cases? I don't believe it, myself.

    I loved watching (none / 0) (#18)
    by bjorn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:12:22 PM EST
    More to hear you than Ann.  You are great, calm, reasoned.  What do you know, a grown up!

    What was that? (none / 0) (#19)
    by QuakerInABasement on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:16:31 PM EST
    Was that diavlog or divalog?

    Very cool! (none / 0) (#20)
    by catfish on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:43:50 PM EST
    Thank you for pointing this out.

    of course, you're (none / 0) (#25)
    by cpinva on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:36:01 PM EST
    certainly free to not believe it,

    all cases? I don't believe it, myself.

    but that won't make you correct. rape is about domination, the "i have such power over you, i can do anything i want, and you can do nothing to stop me!" deal.

    while in many instances, there is probably an element of sex involved, the predominant point is domination, total power over that individual.

    ms. althouse is schtick, much like maureen dowd and wonkette, her legal background notwithstanding. as such, i tend to ignore her.

    she's probably bucking for a pundit gig on msnbc.

    I don't know any one human behavior (none / 0) (#26)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:48:52 PM EST
    which stems from only one motivation.
    Of course, defining motivation is quite tricky in the first place! I am highly skeptical about your claim and would need to see evidence to believe it; however, I don't particularly care about the question.

    Well done J (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:28:13 AM EST

    Mistranscription. (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ann Althouse on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:48:41 PM EST
    I know you think it's funny that I supposedly said "And you're really just kind of undermining my point, uh, by bringing that up like that." But listen to the actual dialogue and you'll hear that I said "And you're really just kind of underlining my point, by bringing that up like that." It's a misquotation and you really ought to apologize and take it down.

    SITE VIOLATOR (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Apr 10, 2019 at 11:00:27 AM EST