Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat

I erroneously cited a SurveyUSA PA poll as the most recent poll. It was NOT the SUSA final PA poll. It was an old poll. I regret the error.

This is an Open Thread.

Open Thread bonus - GOP pollster Strategic Vision has it 48-41 Clinton in PA.

< Hillary Responds to Obama Saying McCain Would Be Better Than Bush | Obama Raises Less in March Than in February >
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    Can we talk about Ed Rendell? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:40:16 PM EST
    I'd like to have a beer (and a shot) with him. He seems like a pretty down-to-earth guy. :-)

    I saw him with a focus group of students (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:44:10 PM EST
    tonight. They were talking about the negative ads. He explained to them the "I don't take money from oil lobbyists" situation about Obama's ads to them. When he finished, the whole group agreed with him that Hillary was entitled to answer this ad.

    I really like him too. As I said in the deleted thread, I'm impressed with these PA politicians and I'm glad the race was close enough for their primary to count so that we could meet them.


    I would love him as VP (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:52:02 PM EST
    He would be loads of fun getting the Senate and Congress to behave.  

    Hah! Great idea. (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:57:00 PM EST
    Straight talk indeed.

    Rendel for Homeland Security (none / 0) (#90)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:20:29 PM EST
    If any executive can whip that important department into shape, he can.

    Sorry (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:23:11 PM EST
    Rendel has no Arabian Show Horse experience.  He could not possibly be qualified for such a position.

    Heck of a job, Eddie :-) (none / 0) (#95)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:24:53 PM EST
    Hmm.... Obama will probably reach out (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:23:46 PM EST
    to Giuliani for that post. Hillary might want to nab him now:)

    Rumor has it (none / 0) (#141)
    by Mary Mary on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:11:54 AM EST
    that he would like to be Secretary of Energy.

    Yeah, but then I would need a new Governor (none / 0) (#104)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:35:22 PM EST
    Lynn Swan ran against him last time and Senator Casey lost to him before that.

    Aren't you going to need.... (none / 0) (#123)
    by Emma on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:28:27 PM EST
    a new governor, anyway?  Isn't Rendell term limited?

    Right you are. (none / 0) (#142)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:50:02 AM EST
    I really did not realize that. So he only has two more years anyway. So in that case, fine with me then. Have at him.

    Hmm... you are not the only one fooled, (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:42:36 PM EST
    then. Josh Marshall is also citing the SUSA poll with a 12 pt. gap. What gives?

    Probably (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:43:39 PM EST
    the blind following the blind.

    curious to know... (none / 0) (#32)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:50:59 PM EST
    who located and who followed  ;-)

    Myself, I don't want to give JMM the traffic so I'll have to take your word.


    I saw it metioned (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:52:50 PM EST
    checked the link and it said what was said. Me, I blame KDKA's web site for not having dates on their polling entries.



    Yeah... (5.00 / 12) (#44)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:56:44 PM EST
    probably your staff messed it up and you never saw the original.

    But his handwriting was on it! (5.00 / 5) (#49)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:57:31 PM EST
    Pushed the wrong button (5.00 / 6) (#50)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:58:15 PM EST
    Oh, no, not our darling Armando! (none / 0) (#56)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:00:26 PM EST
    He never pushes the wrong buttons!

    Kathy, that reminds me. I checked Dkos (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:03:54 PM EST
    tonight for the first time in a long time due to a comment by andgarden. While I was there, I read about how Obama didn't really lie about his handwriting on that survey. You see, "he said I never wrote on that particular survey". "It was a faxed copy of it that he made his corrections on."

    Therefore, not the same sheet of paper, so Obama told the truth.


    Oh lord (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:05:50 PM EST
    I go less and less, and absolutely do not comment.

    you lost me at (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:15:06 PM EST
    "I checked DKos."

    Why, oh why, would you go there?  Do you not value your sanity?!

    Though, it must be said that you took one for the team bringing back that story.  My God, they could justify murder for their man.  Kos is the Squeaky Fromme of the intertubes.


    Well, andgarden said Geekesque make a (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:17:39 PM EST
    sensible post about Obama's chances in PA so I just went to check it out. I was only there a minute but I saw the "Obama didn't lie on gun survey" and had to read it.

    It did show me that I don't miss it.


    oh, so you're the one who listens to (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:19:58 PM EST
    andgarden!  Hahaha!  Seriously, you're brave for going over there.  Thanks for reporting back.  You should only check it in teams so someone can talk you down when you return.

    I need to get talked UP after I've looked there. (none / 0) (#118)
    by jpete on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:57:40 PM EST
    It's so depressing; such a loss.  I guess I think the seeds of destruction were there early on, but still there was so much promise.

    I wonder what it will be like if Obama does become president?  The "I told you so" defender of the status quo?


    That too (none / 0) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:57:19 PM EST
    and my brilliant comments (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:46:55 PM EST
    went with it. and it's only on the rarest of occasions that i get to show off my brilliance. ~sigh~...

    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:49:17 PM EST
    Well, the whole D&D thing is not something to show off I think.

    No, it's something to reluctantly admit to (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:50:14 PM EST
    in friendly, non-judgmental company.

    (Elf, Chaotic Good. Hey, I was in high school.)


    I never played (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:52:29 PM EST
    And I stink at chess too. Go figure.

    Oh, I stink at chess too. (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:54:10 PM EST
    D&D has a lot more chance in it.

    I've played chess since I was 4. (none / 0) (#46)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:57:15 PM EST
    I took up go when I was about 30. Big mistake.
    I like both games a lot.
    I've avoided playing go online, except for a couple little experiments. Last time I tired this (over a couple weeks) I spent 10-18 hr stretches playing go.
    I noticed that there are many people on the go server who have 10,000-30,000 games. This is a LOT more than you will find on the main chess server, and go games are longer, too.
    This just goes to prove my theory that Go is to Chess as heroin is to  valium---it's lethally addictive.

    I'm sorry, (none / 0) (#53)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:58:52 PM EST
    there's a game called "go?"

    fish? (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by reynwrap582 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:02:12 PM EST
    I'm REALLY good at that one!

    No "Go Carts" (none / 0) (#68)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:06:33 PM EST

    Go (none / 0) (#83)
    by phat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:16:04 PM EST
    Chinese in origin.

    It's claimed to be the oldest board game in the world. It's really really old and wonderful.


    It is a great game, and I highly recommend (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:20:06 PM EST
    it for children, as opposed to chess (both are fantastic, though).
    I started go in my last year of grad school---bad idea. For 2 years after that, go was the main thing I thought about. I got quite good at it, but it's not been worth the investment of time---yet! heh

    I started Go in college (none / 0) (#93)
    by phat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:23:35 PM EST
    I never got very good at it. I've since decided that I might take it up again and actually study it. I used to just play with friends and get beat all the time.

    I knew a guy who actually moved to Japan to study it there.


    I'm from seattle, where there is a (none / 0) (#96)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:25:45 PM EST
    pretty big go scene. I did get some encouragement to study to be a professional, also.
    I found a nice site recently---goproblems.com
    I don't play go these days, but I've been doing various kinds of tactics. Fun.

    goproblems.com (none / 0) (#103)
    by phat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:30:56 PM EST

    I've been playing 9x9 games through the Facebook gnugo thing.

    I don't get the Chinese scoring at all.

    There was a pretty decent Go scene here in Lincoln, NE. The Japanese students at the University brought some big Japanese consul in, once, to join us in a tournament. He cleaned my clock.

    I don't know who plays it around here anymore.

    I need to study it.


    check out gobase.org too (none / 0) (#110)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:46:42 PM EST
    Heh... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by kredwyn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:51:05 PM EST
    I used to love playing chaotic neutral characters.

    The creative class, foiled again! (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:49:23 PM EST
    Time to Unplug? (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by standingup on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:50:52 PM EST
    I thought I was losing it when I checked back and didn't see the SUSA poll.  Reminded me of a recent article  - Texting while driving? Time to unplug

    Sharon Sarmiento knew it was time to unplug when she realized she was blogging in her dreams and hearing imaginary instant messages.

    For Ariel Meadow Stallings, it was the hours lost while surfing the Internet that left her feeling like she had been in a drunken blackout.

    Both women are part of a new grass-roots movement in which tech geeks, Internet addicts, BlackBerry thumbers and compulsive IMers are deciding to wrest back control of their lives by daring to switch off -- if only for a day.

    And the kicker....

    "A lot of time you have nothing to show for hours spent online but a hunch back and a sore butt."

    I know that feeling... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kredwyn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:54:10 PM EST
    Got new inner tubes and a tune up for my bike. Tomorrow I will be riding my 12 speed instead of blogging and paper grading.

    Sounds like a great idea (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by standingup on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:12:57 PM EST
    I'll be heading to the woods, if the forecast holds up, for some mushroom hunting.

    Mmmmmm....morels.... (none / 0) (#131)
    by oldpro on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:00:34 AM EST
    Had beautifrul mushrooms for breakfast!

    What the devil is letterboxing??


    I love morels (none / 0) (#143)
    by standingup on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:21:11 AM EST
    but can't eat them.  I never have any trouble giving them away.    

    I haven't heard of letterboxing.  Wiki's description  sounds similar to a scavenger hunt


    Running out of pay per view movies (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:55:24 PM EST
    it's the only way I can keep from reading about this stuff.  I am forced to watch them cause they cost money.  Just watched No Country For Old Men.  I will have nightmares for the next week.  

    Nightmares, really? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:58:49 PM EST
    I took you for a thriller reader--George Pelecanos, James Lee Burke, Denise Mina, Mo Hayder...

    Pelecanos yes (none / 0) (#58)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:01:57 PM EST
    Now I am into the Norwegians and Icelandic guys.  I have an Iceland fetish.  Have you ever seen the movie from there: Seagull's Laugher

    I love Cormac McCarthy.  


    Just guys? (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:10:47 PM EST
    Henning Mankell, I presume?  Oy, with the angst.  And I heard him speak a couple of times, and he's such an arrogant twit that I was completely off him almost immediately.

    Karin Fossum (Norway) is absolutely lovely.  Thomas Ross is a Dutch writer who has been translated into Icelandic, if you're into that.  Judith Uyterlinde is a fabulous Dutch author, but her book isn't a thriller.  Penguin just bought it here, but it's been in South African English for a while.

    McCarthy puts me to sleep, but then I thought Atonement (McEwan) was absolute crap, so maybe I can't be trusted.  Kathryn Harrison (all except for the last two) and Mo Hayder are my faves right now.  And Sarah Waters has a place in my heart for Fingersmith.  Oh, and Russo for Nobody's Fool and basically anything Ann Tyler, though I have to be out of the country to really appreciate it.  Same with Annie Proulx.

    Never seen the movie you mention.  Looks very interesting.  I'll see if I can get it.


    Yeah...them (none / 0) (#87)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:17:56 PM EST
    I just don't remember names anymore.

    Norwegians... (none / 0) (#64)
    by reynwrap582 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:04:50 PM EST
    My mom gets her Norwegian fix watching the crew of the M/V Northwestern on Deadliest Catch (new season just started).  "Oh Sig, so dreamy!"  It's a tad disturbing.

    Have you read Blood Meridian (none / 0) (#137)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:24:05 AM EST
    considered by many his best....Harold Bloom has equated it with Moby Dick.  

    He supposedly has a book yet to be published set in New Orleans that has been in the works for quite some time.  My favorite is The Crossing.

    McCarthy is most likely a Republican as gleaned from a couple of rare interviews.....His writing has an absence of developed female characters, which has led to scholarly debate on the subject.


    To me I just love (none / 0) (#144)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:02:24 AM EST
    his ability to capture the West.  As a naturalized American I always idealize the west and the people who made a life and survived in that land.  

    Yes, Blood Meridian is brilliant.  


    Loved that movie (none / 0) (#55)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:00:16 PM EST
    but I was happy to see it in the theater.

    I save OnDemand for trash movies that I don't think have any artistic merit.


    Misanthrope (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:03:46 PM EST
    The more misanthropic I become, bought a big screen HDTV, put surround sound got me a comfy chair and I watch in complete joy.  

    Nice! (none / 0) (#69)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:07:57 PM EST
    Was reminded of the political race... (5.00 / 9) (#47)
    by rghojai on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:57:18 PM EST
    ...when reading about an auto race. As some may know, Danica Patrick won a race in Japan. Women have won off-road races and drag races, but she's the first to win in major-level open-wheel racing (cars that run at Indy, in Formula One, rather than those in NASCAR and elsewhere with fenders and roofs ). A big deal.

    Saw a column noting, "Let's cut through the crap. The public holds Danica Patrick to a baffling double standard. If a man gets angry after he's punted into the wall at 180 mph, he's justified. If Patrick gets angry, she's vilified. If a man gets into it with his crew chief over strategy, he's fighting for his cause. If Danica does it, she's b*tchy. If a man uses sex appeal to promote himself, he's a stud. If she does it, well..."

    Why would things be any different in racing? (5.00 / 5) (#75)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:11:00 PM EST
    This primary season has really depressed the heck out of me. More than confirmed how acceptable sexism is.

    Good on her for kickin' some butt and winning!! Now that she's broken the glass finish line, let's see her rack up quite a few more. She's young, so she's got time to put up a lot more wins {grin}


    I'm done with Obama. Totally done. (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Universal on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:08:00 PM EST
    Until this past week or so, it hadn't really become personal for me.

    Sure, I didn't like Michelle Obama, or Reverend Wright. Or Bill Ayers, or Tony Rezko. Never cared much for Louis Farrakhan.

    But until this last 7 days or thereabouts, I only disliked the campaign of Barack Obama and not really the man, himself. He still seemed like a good, upstanding guy even if those around him were angry, anti-American, flourishing ingrates.

    That's over with now.

    Senator Obama may be a great guy, but I have genuinely started to dislike him. He is arrogant, elitist, a hypocrite, a liar and he has fully bought into his own hype while flipping of his opponents, one of them apparently literally.

    It is in this vein that I make the following announcement:

    I have made a few changes over at my website, VillarrealSports.com, adding a new section dedicated to just news and politics, complete with a forum for each. This is a change from having both topics subsumed underneath the "General Off-Topic" forum.

    Also, I wanted to let people know that my brother (the owner of the site) and I are going to be holding a contest for the best post in the following thread:

    "What is the worst thing about Barack Obama (as a presidential candidate) ?"

    We're not sure exactly how we're going to judge which is the best post, but the judgment will be based on who provides the best rationale for why they find Barack Obama unacceptable as either the Democratic nominee for President or else as a general election choice as President vis-a-vis John McCain.

    The period of time will be the best post over a period of one month, starting from the date on which we receive the first submission.

    The winner of the contest will receive either a free T-shirt or hat, depending upon which item my brother and I decide to have made. The gear will be official "ABC" [Anti-Barack Coalition] merchandise, and will feature one of a series of phrases and/or imagery we are settling on to have placed on a run of T-shirts or hats.

    Believe me, if you have as much disgust and repulsion at the bareness and cynicism of Barack Obama and his Democratic nomination campaign, you will be proud to wear whichever of the slogans and imagery we decide on (with your help via your feedback). The merchandise you receive for winning the contest will be part of a run which we will be making to fill the demand for millions of other voters -- both Democrats and Republicans alike -- who are similarly fed-up with being bullied by many Obama supporters and who have been told by the media that any criticism of Barack Obama is off-limits.

    And that brings me to my final point. When you come and visit our site, let us know your own ideas for what YOU think would make a good piece of "ABC" merchandise. Would you prefer a hat or a T-shirt to wear? What would the item show, and what would it say?

    We need your feedback in order to create the product or products which you want to wear to show your disapproval with the candidacy of Barack Obama.

    Look forward to seeing you on our site, and listening to your feedback, both about what you personally find most objectionable about Obama's campaign and associations as well as what you think would make a good T-shirt or hat slogan and image.

    Paul F. Villarreal AKA "Universal" -- VillarrealSports.com

    Hi Universal! Look upthread (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by hairspray on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:54:30 PM EST
    at what David Sirota and Ezra Klein said about the boy wonder.  I guess that is when they were rooting for Edwards.  Now they are in the tank for Obama. But their comments then were prophetic and I have not changed my perception of him.  He is still what they described.  So when did he become St. Obama and who made it so?

    Sirota in the tank for Obama? (none / 0) (#122)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:21:38 PM EST
    I don't think so...

    via Susie Madrak

    `The Ridiculousness & Danger That Is Obama `08′

    David Sirota on Obama, something he wrote in 2006 that pretty much sums up how I feel:

    I don't blame Obama for not having accomplished much - he's been in the Senate for two years. As I wrote in the Nation, the main concern about him is that he doesn't actually seem to ASPIRE to anything outside of the Washington power structure (other than maybe running for another higher office), and doesn't seem to be interested in challenging the status quo in any fundamental way. Using his senate career as a guide, it suggests that any presidential run by him is about him, his speaking ability and his fawned over talent for "connecting" (whatever the hell that means).

    For progressives, this situation is perilous indeed. Obama is a candidate who has kept his record deliberately thin, who has risked almost nothing for the bigger movement, and in fact who has sometimes gone out of his way to reinforce dishonest stereotypes about the left. This is a man who has helped launch the Hamilton Project designed to undermine Democrats pushing for fairer trade deals. This is a man who belittled Paul Wellstone as merely a "gadfly." This is a man who refused to lift a finger for Ned Lamont. Flocking to a candidate like that without demanding that he change only reinforces the damaging concept that our movement is a Seinfeld Movement about nothing.

    In Sirota's article, I found something very interesting about Ezra Klein, actually chuckle inducing:

    Consider Ezra Klein's recent piece in the Los Angeles Times about Obama:

    "Obama is a cipher, an easy repository for the hopes and dreams of liberals everywhere...But if Obama avoided being battle-tested in 2004 by the grace of God, it's his own timidity that has kept his name clean since. Given his national profile and formidable political talents, he could have been a potent spokesman for Democratic causes in the Senate. Instead, he has refused to expend his political or personal capital on a single controversial issue, preferring to offer anodyne pieces of legislation and sign on to the popular efforts of others...Indeed, Obama is that oddest of all creatures: a leader who's never led. There are no courageous, lonely crusades to his name, or supremely unlikely electoral battles beneath his belt. He won election running basically unopposed, and then refused to open himself to attack by making a controversial but correct issue his own."

    Ezra goes on to point out that there are ways Obama could have proved himself. "He could, say, make universal healthcare coverage his public obsession or demand an end to the war in Iraq" he says. "He could fight for full public financing of all campaigns, or seek a national living wage." He hasn't done that, and not doing it has nothing to do with Obama's canned answer that he's "just a junior senator" who supposedly can't do anything.

    The article is fascinating in its prescience and its timelessness.

    How embarrassing for them now. What was it (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:30:29 PM EST
    Markos said? You write it, you own it.

    Thanks! Most enlightening. (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:37:03 PM EST
    Wow. Incredibly accurate crystal ball. Thanks. (none / 0) (#111)
    by Raven15 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:47:53 PM EST
    Sirota is perhaps incorrect ... (none / 0) (#125)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:41:17 PM EST
    Actors worry about being type-cast into their first successful role for ever there after. Politicians need to worry about issue-burnout the same way.

    For a long time I thought Hillary had burned through her political capital w/ her attempt at health care during her husband's Presidency. I find it remarkable that she has kept a low profile and built up support for her Presidential run during her Senate career.

    Point being -- perhaps Obama is just being smart; Perhaps he figures that in order to have maximum impact one has to become President. Perhaps then he will decide (or reveal) what he's willing to spend his accumulated capital on. Pity is.. a majority of his supporters may not like it or he may find that even as President he is unable to change the status quo! It sure should be interesting.


    since we're all experts here... (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:58:28 PM EST
    I think that time has proven that the American public is perfectly content to vote for content free candidacy and that Axelrod's calculation that personality more than anything else was key has at least some merit.

    But I'm still troubled by the fact that Obama has gotten pretty much of a free ride as long as his opponent was a Clinton, the media was only too eager to level the playing field for him.

    I think the level playing field and substance free candidacy takes a big, big hit if there is no Clinton in the picture.

    As for Hillary's political capital...she earned her own keep in the Senate and actually has gotten some high marks from Senators on both sides of the aisle and has been anything but the divisive or polarizing figure that she had been branded with over the years.

    Suggesting that she burned up her political capital on health care in the 90's is a rather shallow, self-serving and dismissive analysis.

    It's unfortunate that this campaign had to resurrect those old characterizations but I guess it's easy to see how these kind of characterizations get reborn.


    Is there a chance McCain might ask Obama (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:29:26 PM EST
    to be his VP?  After all, Kerry at one time toyed with the idea. Is Obama flirting with the idea and thinking of taking his supporters along with him?  The GOP has been trying to attract more AA support for the longest time.  Barack might have a brighter future with the Republicans.  If he loses the nomination, he might just pout enough to go over there.

    No way. The GOP (Fox) is into bashing (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:35:44 PM EST
    Obama big time right now about Wright and whatshisname, the Weatherman guy. They think he has killed his chance in November over that.

    This is based on what I saw when I was desperate for some non-Pope news today and switched to Fox for a few minutes. It was really bad.


    You should take my advice (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:38:49 PM EST
    and not listen to folks who tell you to check other website, but No Quarter has dug up one of the Weather Underground's victims to remind folks of what Ayers was-unrepentantly-a part of.

    I thought Mr Unity didn't like the Mav? (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:39:41 PM EST
    I understood McCain asked Kerry for the VP (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Prabhata on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:54:05 PM EST
    but Kerry never really considered it.  Only looked at the idea because he was asked.

    No way ... (none / 0) (#127)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:43:07 PM EST
    I missed the Pope at Yankee Stadium (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ellie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:45:51 PM EST
    Did the first pitch make it over home plate or what?

    Knocked over an altar boy (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Lahdee on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:09:24 PM EST
    and bounced into the dugout. Surprisingly the 15 nuns on deck were uninjured.

    His Holiness Pope Obama I (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by feet on earth on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:34:52 AM EST
    With all of his speeches on hope and faith in change he may convince the cardinals to elect him Pope Obama I, His Holiness

    Part II: Obama's Adviser David L. Boren re: Energy (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by SunnyLC on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:50:29 PM EST

    Part II: Obama's Adviser David L. Boren-How He Screwed Us Long-term in 1993 re: Energy and More posted by SunnyLC
    04.20.2008 - 11:44 pm

    Please check out Part II on Obama's adviser David Boren...

    Incredible articles from the NY TImes that are still available on the web are cited...

    How Clinton/Gore's far-reaching energy proposals were killed by Boren. Do you trust Obama on energy?

    Obama's energy policy could be the (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:56:25 PM EST
    real trojan horse of this campaign, with all the bickering over health care policy a smokescreen for what President Cornanol would do to our energy policy.

    Remember (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:53:30 PM EST
    To light a candle for HRC.  I saw this on another blog tonight (taylormarsh).

    If you can't donate cash, donate positivity!

    48 hours to victory in Pennsylvania!

    It seems like there's some campaign burnout (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Raven15 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:13:13 PM EST
    ...setting in, and I'm feeling it too. A bike ride awaits me in the morning. BUT, while I am confident HRC will have a double-digit win Tuesday, this one is too big to be complacent about, so I'll be making some calls for HRC in the afternoon or evening. I encourage her supporters to do the same.  

    If Hillary wins by 13 (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:33:20 AM EST
    I'll have very, very much fun calculating Obama's campaign cost per vote in PA and will feel gungho that she's gonna win! ;-).

    If she loses, or only wins by a little, I'll most likely ride off into the internet sunset and spend more time on my Butterfly Conservation Information project.  (I'm going for a second bachelor's in Biology and this quarter's course is "Entomology".)

    Dum die dum...die dumm (none / 0) (#1)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:38:54 PM EST
    So, how about them Giants?

    SF or NY? ;) (none / 0) (#76)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:11:40 PM EST
    Posting petition for Florida vote to count again. (none / 0) (#2)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:39:41 PM EST
    Print it and mail it in. There is one for residents and one for non-residents. They have almost 70,000 to present to the DNC so far.

    Count the Vote

    Re SUSA (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:40:16 PM EST
    you might ask Jay Leve if he has a schedule for poll releases.

    HOB Special "John Adams" (none / 0) (#5)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:40:33 PM EST
    Last episode was tonight.  It was beautifull done, and historically accurate, at least from my limited knowledge if history.  The best thing was the way the viewer was able to "feel" the historical events of our country's founding.  All in all, a beautiful media product.

    I loved it too (none / 0) (#13)
    by angie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:43:33 PM EST
    I just bought the book today -- it looks good, but I"m a sucker for biographies.  

    Looked new (none / 0) (#6)
    by Grey on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:41:32 PM EST
    to me, too.  

    I guess their last poll will be out tomorrow.

    I have this crazy gut feeling (none / 0) (#10)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:42:53 PM EST
    that it's going to be a really big blowout for HRC.

    My gut has so far been much more reliable than most polls - except for SUSA, of course. ;-)


    I would bet on 15+ (none / 0) (#17)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:44:21 PM EST
    Me too... (none / 0) (#20)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:45:18 PM EST
    I think BitterCling is the nail in his coffin with white working-class voters.

    Well, I think it's more that (none / 0) (#21)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:46:20 PM EST
    blue collar are going to use the "p" word to describe Obama---the one Edwards reportedly used.
    He's not good under pressure.

    FWiW (none / 0) (#18)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:44:47 PM EST
    Tweety agrees with you.  Or he did as of Thursday.  He sez 17 points.

    Ah, and then Hillary drops out, right? (none / 0) (#22)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:46:45 PM EST
    Graciously, of course. (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:48:02 PM EST
    Beating Obama like a drum in Pennsylvania means that she cannot POSSIBLY WIN!!! LOL

    Oh noes! (none / 0) (#24)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:47:09 PM EST
    My gut must be wrong then. I simply can't agree with Tweety on anything, on principle. :-)

    I have a feeling... (none / 0) (#19)
    by americanincanada on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:44:51 PM EST
    just now...that if the undecideds break the way some of us think they will...this could be a +16% or more blow-out.

    don't feel bad BTD... (none / 0) (#7)
    by americanincanada on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:41:41 PM EST
    it was everywhere for a moment and then...gone.

    I was so happy with the SUSA poll! (none / 0) (#8)
    by angie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:42:24 PM EST
    How could you do that to me?!?!?!  Well, the real one better have even better numbers for Hillary, and that's all I'm saying. . .

    SUSA (none / 0) (#11)
    by az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:43:01 PM EST
    You know those old numbers won't be far off from what the polling outfit would release tomorrow or the final outcome in terms of the margin , thats my hunch.

    It was confusing (none / 0) (#12)
    by tnjen on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:43:23 PM EST
    because the station rounded it down to 53-41 whereas SUSA's site posted it 54-40.

    No (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:44:07 PM EST
    That was literally a poll from last month.

    Ah (none / 0) (#25)
    by tnjen on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:47:47 PM EST
    Oh well. No harm done. It made me happy for a little while. :)

    Annoying Obama signs (none / 0) (#31)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:50:55 PM EST
    This home made one I see on Priuses here in Bay Area:  Obamamama, not for some reason reminds me of that Baby On Board stuff that I hated 20 years ago.  

    Heh. I used to have a Garfield (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:52:59 PM EST
    stuck to the window of my Hyundai.

    1987, people. Feel the magic!


    No you did not (none / 0) (#38)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:54:04 PM EST
    Oooooohhhhh (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:55:12 PM EST
    but I did.

    I was only 20.

    [slinks away, embarrassed]


    forgiven (none / 0) (#43)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:55:50 PM EST
    gracias! :-) (none / 0) (#51)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:58:43 PM EST
    Playing and counting +20 on Tuesday night (none / 0) (#54)
    by feet on earth on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:59:29 PM EST
    No problem BTD - You just need a good night sleep.

    Thanks to the great work you are doing.

    To all Hillary's supporters: It is time to say goodnight from an angelic voice (an a countryman of mine)


    Hmmmmm... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Spike on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:01:10 PM EST
    So that consensus that Clinton had a 12%-18% margin in the bag was an illusion? You mentioned the Strategic Vision poll with Clinton up by 7%. There also seems to be a Mason-Dixon poll out with Clinton up by 5%. So she still appears to have a healthy lead. The 60% Clinton blowout could still materialize...

    Just so you know (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:05:35 PM EST
    I am a SUSA adherent and have been for a while now.

    It is the new World's Best Pollster.

    Pssst, I also do not post about national tracking polls either.


    Just so you know (none / 0) (#72)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:09:23 PM EST
    I only pay attention to polls that you post and like Kathy only the ones that favor our candidate.  

    You picked up the habit from me, (none / 0) (#73)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:10:32 PM EST

    Um (none / 0) (#63)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:04:30 PM EST
    So that consensus that Clinton had a 12%-18% margin in the bag was an illusion?
    Whose consensus was this? At one point, Markos was pushing the ridiculous idea that she had to win by 19 points in order for PA to matter.

    The point I would make is that Obama's numbers are pretty steady, and Hillary's seem variable at the top. That could mean any number of things, but one of the most likely is a Wilder effect.


    ABC? No - Got to be PHC, if anything (none / 0) (#84)
    by feet on earth on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:17:06 PM EST
    Pro Hillary Coalition

    Question (none / 0) (#60)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:02:39 PM EST
    Why do they put bananas in everything now?  Those of us who hate bananas know they are in there, and don't say, "you can't really taste the banana," because that's like saying to the princess, "you really can't feel the pea."

    like what? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:05:00 PM EST
    Nothing worse than banana flavor.  Bananas only taste good pure.

    mmmmm, bananas (none / 0) (#71)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:08:59 PM EST
    I don't keep them around because they're pure sugar, but they're oh so tasty!

    Bleh (none / 0) (#77)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:12:41 PM EST
    Bananas: they are dead to me.

    They give me massive indigestion. (none / 0) (#79)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:13:31 PM EST
    You have to let them ripen! (none / 0) (#80)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:13:47 PM EST
    when they're flecked with brown and have a golden hue, bananas taste the best, and are the best for you!

    Lookit (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:15:56 PM EST
    everyone knows that bananas can carry black widow spiders.  I know because my granny told me.  They should be illegal.

    Bananas: I am against them.


    heh (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:17:33 PM EST
    you're just a hater. I love em.

    You know that most of the 3rd world is fed with bananas of various types, right? There would be massive starvation without them.


    Yes, of course (5.00 / 5) (#91)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:22:16 PM EST
    that's why they remain third world.  It's a vast banana conspiracy.  Have you seen Chaquita lately?  They have darkened her face and made her basket larger.

    Just for you (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:25:52 PM EST
    An original Chiquita theater commerce.

    You know they based her off of Carmen Miranda, right?


    My grandfather used to talk (5.00 / 4) (#102)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:30:43 PM EST
    in highly inappropriate ways about his love for Carmen Miranda and her exotic and beautiful hips.

    Therapists have opined this is the root of my banana problem.


    Dammit Kathy, I need to go to sleep. Hush. (none / 0) (#99)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:26:46 PM EST
    I can't quit laughing.

    I woke my dogs up. Did you know I have a black male dog and a white female one? I'm calling them Barack and Hillary right now. The little white one is a firecracker and just like Hillary. The black one is a sweetie and very timid so he doesn't have Obama's personality. They rarely fight, but when they do, the little girl dog always wins.


    Banana Sharing? ...I Think Not (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by CoralGables on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:52:38 PM EST
    I have one banana left on the counter and I don't think I'm going to share. Runners know bananas are the nectar of the gods when it comes to keeping away calf muscle spasms in the middle of the night.

    Little brown specs on the peel. It's mighty tasty. I vote for the candidate that lowers the price of bananas back to 29 cents a pound.


    Banana fan here (none / 0) (#135)
    by badger on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:43:10 AM EST
    We'd have black widows with or without bananas - they love the Pacific Northwest (even the dry part we live in, although they look for cool, damp spots). We have rattlesnakes too.

    I have a banana every day with lunch. My border collie, who roams around the woods all day, is always home around lunch time to get a nice sized chunk of banana. He's the only dog I know who likes them. None of his friends (who come up from town for playdates) will eat bananas.

    Banana is also the best popsicle flavor.


    I think the margin is going to be a small (none / 0) (#115)
    by ajain on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:54:12 PM EST
    Obama is out spending her tremendously and attacking her viciously. I mean she already has high unfavourables, it just adds on. He is really doing anything and everything he possibly can, and he can do a lot considering he has tons and tons of cash.

    I just think it maybe that people making up their minds now maybe influenced heavily by the negative campaigning from Mr. Hope-Change-Unity.

    I agree.. (none / 0) (#129)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:53:22 PM EST
    Besides the negative ads from both sides that may depress turnout, I just saw the Philly/Pittsburgh demographics, and they are not good for Clinton. So my guess is that it will come down to turn out numbers in those western and south eastern corners of the state.

    If it takes SOOO much money (none / 0) (#121)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:19:03 PM EST
    what does that say about him? He cannot seal the deal. So much for thinking the race for the nom was going to be a cakewalk.  Maybe on Oprah's show it might have been, but not in the real world.

    He should listen to the Beatles (none / 0) (#124)
    by RTwilight on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:31:52 PM EST
    "money can't buy me love"

    Hmmm...maybe if he checked them out he might pick up the "bigger than Jesus" line...it would fit with his "nobody has (blank) more than me" material


    I Need A Primary (none / 0) (#126)
    by CoralGables on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:42:45 PM EST
    I'm glad Tuesday is almost here. I fell asleep this afternoon and woke up in the middle of a dream where Huston Street was on the mound giving up a hit, a walk, and a dinger to raise my competition's ERA and WHIP's, thereby giving me an extra 2 points and a fantasy baseball win for the week.

    If none of this makes sense to you, you are completely sane. If you can relate, remind yourself it's only the 3rd week of the season...then follow my lead and turn off ESPN and your computer and go back to bed until election results start to come in Tuesday night.

    I need a primary. Politics keeps me sane.

    I did that Friday night (none / 0) (#133)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:16:45 AM EST
    fell asleep with the game on, had a baseball in the background dream and woke up to ugly game. My fantasy teams didn't fair any better. I've got so many DL's my head is exploding and my benches are full :( yeah, a primary would come in handy about now, lol!~

    How about them Iraqis? (none / 0) (#132)
    by daryl herbert on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:11:30 AM EST
    The Maliki government, which represents sane, non-extremist Muslims, has soundly defeated the radical Shi'ites in Sadr's militias over the past week or so, and shows no sign of stopping.

    To be fair, more than a thousand Iraqi soldiers failed to perform adequately.  However, the failures were fired by the Iraqi government, and the Iraqi government forces that are left are by all accounts performing very well.  If the battles keep going, there won't be much left in the way of Sadrist militias.

    Are these victories by the Iraqi government real, or illusory?  Does this mean we can expect violence in Iraq to decrease, or not?  Does this mean we should stay? Or does this mean we can afford to leave, and the Iraqis can take care of themselves?  Does this mean McCain should stress how much Iraqis need us to stay, while Dems should stress how Iraqis can take care of themselves?  Or should the candidates continue with what they've been saying? (McCain, that we're "winning," and the Dems, that we just need to get out and let Iraqis sort things out for themselves.)  Does this mean Iraq will be more of a campaign issue, or less?

    I don't know.  But it's an open thread!  Where better to voice these questions, which demand answers, even if none of us can provide them?

    I think the progress is real, in light of political progress (Sunnis ready to rejoin Maliki's cabinet) and Sadrist whining.  Beyond that, I don't know the long-term implications, and I don't know how the campaigns will frame the issue, or what effect it will have on the election in November.

    The latest in Nafta-gate from the Canadian Media (none / 0) (#136)
    by feet on earth on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:08:14 AM EST
    The Canadian government has contracted a private security company to investigate who liked the Nafta-gate memo re: the meeting of Austan Goolsbee (Obama's senior economic advisor) with a Canadian Embassy's staff.

    Article here: http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/412745

    Copy of the liked memo here: http://tinylink.com/?l8wDMyo1io

    Pollster site (none / 0) (#139)
    by karen for Clinton on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:45:01 AM EST
    The site I've been looking at for polls for the last few months combines them all in graphs:


    here is their PA page with all the prior national polls and clickable links below the graphs:


    What has struck me all along in all the contests to date is how Clinton has a slow and steady nature and Obama always has a sharp rise.

    Easy come, easy go in the general.

    and we know why his numbers jump: Media hype in each new target area.


    She's looking good in PA, get out the vote!

    Earthlings for Clinton on Earth Day.

    Suffolk 52-42 Clinton (none / 0) (#140)
    by tnjen on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:07:44 AM EST
    4 percent undecided and 2 percent refused to answer.

    More here:


    I really like that bottom number for BO 42 seems right. Hopefully the six unknown all break Clinton.

    Questioning the crosstabs of the SurveyUSA poll (none / 0) (#145)
    by qazzyboy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:43:08 PM EST
    Now I'm not going to act like I know more than they do, but what struck me most is the subtle differences SurveyUSA has in the electorate between their different polls.

    When Clinton was +18:
    58% Female
    42% Male

    When Clinton was +14/+6, they made it:
    55% Female
    45% Male

    Considering Pennsylvania is supposed to be more female than many states that have continuously seen turnout at 58% female, why the downgrade in amount of females?

    Also, the age:

    When Clinton +18:
    24% 65 and Over (C: 65%  O: 29%)
    19% 18-24 (C: 45%  O: 44%)


    They have 65+ and 18-24 TIED at 21% each (65+ C: 62%  O: 32%) (18-24: O: 57%   C: 36%), which also confuses me considering Pennsylvania is obviously not only older than almost all states, but the poll two weeks ago was still polled when voting registration was over -- why would SurveyUSA think there's going to be an increased youth vote turnout equal to those 65+?

    If these factors are adjusted back to where they were, 58/42 gender split, and the age of the electorate back to where it was, what does the margin become?