The Philly Jefferson Jackson Dinner: Hillary vs. Obama

Philadelphia Democrats held their Jefferson Jackson Dinner tonight. Both Hillary and Obama spoke separately.

Hillary rose above Bitter-Gate, never mentioning it, and included Obama in her praise:

"Neither Senator Obama nor myself could have dreamed we would be right here asking you for your votes," Clinton said, praising the pioneers of the civil rights and women's rights movements. "We are the beneficiaries of the work and sacrifice that so many of you and countless Americans have done over so many generations."

Obama went on the attack: [More...]

But Obama did talk about it, asking supporters to stand by him "if you understand that people really are angry, they really are fed up, some of them are really bitter, because Washington has forgotten them."

"It's not me who's out of touch," he continued. "It's folks that think that somehow folks are happy when they're out of a job and they lost a pension and they don't have heath care and their schools are underfunded. I know exactly what folks are going through."

"And," Obama added for good measure, "I go to church."

Which pitch do you think was more effective? Did Obama assume Hillary was going to attack him and misjudge? Obama will win the Philly vote -- maybe the only part of PA he takes -- but was anger the right response?

Update: Hillary spoke for only 5 minutes. It wasn't a sit-down dinner and the crowd apparently wasn't paying attention. I haven't seen any reports on how long Obama's speech was.

Comments now closed.

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    He should drop it, too. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:07:15 PM EST
    Though from watching TV tonight (Abrams), the story from the media is that people are bitter. They aren't connecting it at all to the negative (or positive) things they cling to. It's as if he never said the second part of his sentence.

    Buchanan tried to point that part out but Abrams wasn't having any of it, calling it a media manufactured event.

    Maybe MSNBC is feeling desperate too (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:17:05 PM EST
    after all the careful build-up and now sensing that it might be slipping away.  The next few days until April 22 should prove interesting.

    Come On! (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by OxyCon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:20:33 PM EST
    You know Obama is right! People really are bitter clinger-oners! America really should be damned! White people ARE greedy! Garlick-nosers killed Jeezus! The years 1993 through 2000 totally sucked! Hillary will do anything to win!

    clinger-oners? how about cling-ons (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:18:22 AM EST
    or Kling-ons?

    If he said people were bitter about (none / 0) (#165)
    by Prabhata on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:09:25 PM EST
    losing their jobs, there'd be problem.  It's that they are bitter and to soothe their bitterness they turn to religion and their guns.  Oh yeah, he blamed them for being bigots too. Even if it were true, it's a bad move to say that, particularly to explain why those same voters are not voting for him.  

    she's desperate! (none / 0) (#195)
    by dotcommodity on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:35:07 PM EST
    she attacks!
    ... when she's desperate!

    Obama even has a site named desperatehillaryattacks
    in case you are a bit slow to catch the Obama train...


    "I'm mad as h*ll... (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:53:57 PM EST
    and I'm not going to take it anymore!" only works in the movies.

    You can't convince people they are miserable.  You can convince them they're happy, but Obama seems to have given up on that.


    To make them cling to the hope (none / 0) (#81)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:08:46 PM EST
    that he would stop.  Somewhere along the line, he got his message all tangled up. This episode of 'bitter/cling' has certainly put a dark cloud on his carefully cultivated sunny personality.  The question now is, would he recover?  

    Er, that's "Mr. Hopey" (none / 0) (#172)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:17:08 PM EST
    Mr. Hope is the comedian.

    Oh, wait...


    No, it's that the bitter wasn't an issue (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by nellre on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:07:16 PM EST
    If he keeps harping on the word bitter everyone will forget the word cling...
    cling to religion, prejudice, guns etc.
    If he'd said embrace instead of cling, this would be a non-issue.

    Stepped Back In It (none / 0) (#97)
    by Athena on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:21:56 PM EST
    And - little noticed - he defended his remarks, citing PA's proud traditions - uh, like racism and anti-immigrant sentiment?

    Too many cultural grenades is these remarks for him to escape now.


    You hit the nail on the head (none / 0) (#216)
    by BernieO on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:04:49 AM EST
    Obama put religion in the same category as not liking people who are different.
    The fact that he also said that these people had been neglected by both the Bush and CLINTON administrations is being overlooked. He deserves to be excoriated for saying that. The nineties were extremely good economically for the poor and working class. Clinton had a lot of effective policies targeting the working poor - like increases in the earned income tax credits, better access to college loans, child care, etc. Six million people moved out of poverty. Since then five million have fallen into poverty and the way Bush is going he will have completely reversed Clinton's gains by the time he is done. This should please him since he was determined to be the anti-Clinton and in that he has succeeded all too well.

    OT. Did you catch Chris Matthews on Colbert last night? He is clearly planning to run for the Senate in Pa. in 2010. I think he sees the handwriting on the wall. That should give him an excuse to step down from his job in June before he gets fired. I think he will do less damage in the Senate, if he can even get elected. I can't wait to see which party he affiliates with. Hope the Republicans get him, but he did work for Democrats in the past.


    He is less mature than Bush, (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:07:49 PM EST
    .. and that is saying a LOT.

    No kidding (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:11:55 PM EST
    for the love of all that is holy, let it the heck go.

    Y'all know I am totally in the tank for Clinton, but this is almost-almost-painful to watch.

    What a frackin' ego.  The guy just cannot stand someone getting something over on him.  I'm sure he's got some choice behind closed doors words for the woman who taped him at the event.  Though, I'm sure that only comes out when he's blaming his staff for not screening her.

    Anyone else remember that NY Times piece right after Power and Monstergate, where the journalist said that routinely reporters hear O staff say really obnoxious things about Clinton, but they don't print it because they loves them some O so much?

    I'm glad someone finally developed a conscience.


    I saw that as just plain rude. (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:29:59 PM EST
    It was rude to the organizers, rude to Hillary and rude to the American people who expect their candidates to behave rather like grown-ups. Obama doesn't seem to have very good manners. He snubbed Hillary after the debate, turned his back on her in the Senate when she went to shake his hand. The Senators who were with him had the grace to look uncomfortable when he did that. I was appalled. Obama may be a US Senator, but he is not a gentleman.

    How (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by sas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:16:40 PM EST
    can we expect him to behave?  He's young, inexperienced, and doesn't know any better.

    We are in trouble, folks.


    He is a 46 year old Senator, (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:37:34 PM EST
    he is a graduate of Harvard Law. He should have mastered common courtesy by now.  

    Philly crowd, organizers rude to her (none / 0) (#48)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:40:51 PM EST
    according to CBS website report, below.  It sounds to me that she did the right thing, with this sort of stand-up event, to just make it short and move on.  No report I could find on how long Obama went.

    Btw, this will be edited, I betcha, and some of the adjectives will be out (i.e., "meddlesome" is not really correct but colorful and captures that the reporter apparently was appalled -- plus I love that he must have a stopwatch on each candidate).

    "PHILADELPHIA -- Hillary Clinton was forced to cut her normal stump speech short when a chatty and meddlesome crowd kept her from grasping their attention. Clinton, who was addressing the Philadelphia County Democratic Party's Jefferson-Jackson Dinner, spoke for just over five minutes, despite having the press arrive almost two hours beforehand.

    "The crowd never settled down during her remarks. A spokesman for Clinton denied that she cut the speech short, and told reporters that Clinton was advised by her Pennsylvania team to deliver 'a short speech' given the set up of the event.

    "In previous party dinners, most recently in Butte, Mt., Clinton spoke for almost an hour to a crowd that seemed to be paying attention. The aide said this was a 'different type' of J-J Dinner, primarily because people were not seated at tables, and were 'milling around' the banquet hall.

    "Whether or not Clinton's reception at the dinner had anything to do with her recent attacks on Barack Obama remains unclear. Clinton has never delivered a formal speech in such a short amount of time. The most recent abbreviated speech was back on February 15 when Clinton spoke to a crowd at a Lockheed Martin plant in Akron, Ohio. The speech lasted for just 12 minutes. . . ."


    You are one HARD-working Lady Jeralyn. (5.00 / 16) (#5)
    by Gabriele Droz on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:08:23 PM EST
    Thanks.  For all you do in this race.

    TY from me also. (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:11:12 PM EST
    I now get most of my political updates from TL.  Thanks to you and BTD for all the effort at moderating. It's OT I know and may be deleted.

    faked into shadow boxing (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:09:55 PM EST
    Did he speak first? I think Hillary did better.  Hillary acted like the statesman and Obama the inexperienced one.  Like answering a question that is not being asked.  It must have felt awkward for the audience.

    Yeah, good move - (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:10:36 PM EST
    reminding us he goes to church.  And that people don't have health care.

    What church was that again?  Oh, yeah, Trinity...Reverend Wright's old stomping grounds.

    And what was that about people not having health care?  Tell us more about your non-universal plan, Senator.

    Please, say "bitter" a couple more times, will ya?

    Wound...meet salt.

    This is supposed to be Mr. Unity?

    Well, people must cling to something! (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:11:16 PM EST
    Why (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by joanneleon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:11:01 PM EST
    the "and I go to church" comment?  Is there a reason why he threw that in?

    kitchen sink? (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:12:43 PM EST
    at least it wasn't, "You forgot Poland!"

    Well, let's see -- he said that church (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:28:31 PM EST
    was something to cling to only when you're angry, but he didn't mean it.  Oh, and before that, he wrote and said that religion was rilly important to him, and so was his spiritual advisor and mentor the Rev. Wright, but now he was only Obama's pastor . . . but I digress (Obama's justifications do that) . . . ahem, and it also turns out that Obama didn't go to church whenever the Rev. Wright gave his best fire-breathing sermons, the ones that Wright picked to put on the videotapes he sells.  Probably does that for all those like Obama who somehow missed just those sermons and no others because, y'know, Obama goes to church.

    Tune in tomorrow for the next rendition of What Obaam Really Meant and Really Did or Really Didn't Do or What He Meant By What He Said He Really Meant . . . But He Really Went to Church, Except When It Got Really Interesting.  Got it?


    You left out my favorite (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:32:41 PM EST
    that people in OH and PA don't want to hear the good news, especially from a 46 year old black man.

    Why won't he just shut up about it?  I mean, seriously-who in his campaign is telling him that he needs to keep digging this hole?  They can't possibly believe that through the power of oratory, he can change people's minds.  Can it really be that simple?

    Honestly, this is like watching a bad DIY show on tv, where they keep putting latex paint over oil paint, and it keeps peeling, and they keep putting more, and it keeps peeling more, and--somebody needs to kilz it!


    Just so simple is it, sez Obi-Wan (none / 0) (#71)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:57:14 PM EST
    . . . see the link downthread from waldenpond to the video, which explains it all. :-)

    That should not have made me laugh, (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:41:41 PM EST
    because it's so true, but it did...

    I've been saying - mainly all through the Bush presidency - that I ought to have the phrase "I just don't get it" tattooed on one of my palms, because I say it so often that it would just be easier to hold it up 50 times a day.

    I find myself feeling the same way about Obama.  I don't get how the media can be so blind or uncaring or indifferent or lazy that they don't feel the slightest obligation to call him on the more-than-daily changes in his positions.

    Are we immune to the charm?  Unable to be hypnotized?  Missing the hoodwink gene?

    [BTW, the other palm would have the acronym "AYFKM?" tattooed on it..."Are You F'ing Kidding Me?" - another reaction to Bush that I am having to Obama.  Coincidence?]


    The (5.00 / 6) (#58)
    by sas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:45:22 PM EST
    media knows he isn't all he's cracked up to be....

    but "MY GAWD - we can't have a woman running things!"


    I'm at the same point. In the months leading (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by tigercourse on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:49:07 PM EST
    up to Bush's first win (in fact since about the time I first found out who he was) I was amazed that this guy (someone so obviously incapable of running a latrine detail, much less a country) was on his way to being President. I feel the same way now about Obama. Excpet I don't think he'll actually make it to the oval office. As long as I live, I might never get it.

    I am not usually a suspicious person (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by hairspray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:24:15 PM EST
    but the media gave Bush a free pass and now Obama and it seems so obvious.  What are they doing and why?

    Very strange (none / 0) (#13)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:16:56 PM EST
    I suspect a deluge of "Obama is a Muslim" emails.

    Hillary is not a regular church goer (none / 0) (#26)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:23:48 PM EST
    Neither is Obama (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:24:31 PM EST
    or he would not have missed those sermons.

    She doesn't (none / 0) (#39)
    by facta non verba on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:34:39 PM EST
    have to show her faith to all as some Pharisee. She quietly lives her faith. I wish I could have seen last night's forum.

    So... (none / 0) (#91)
    by mrjerbub on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:16:15 PM EST
    Could you imagine all the guff she would get from having the Secret Service clear the church each time she attended. Hillary is plenty spritual enough for me....IMHO, of course.

    I couldn't care less... (none / 0) (#131)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:38:40 PM EST
    ...I'm just saying that is the point Obama is trying to make.

    Seriously? (none / 0) (#219)
    by ChrisO on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:14:45 AM EST
    If you're making the point that Obama is trying to say he goes to church and Hillary doesn't, I hope it's in the spirit of condemning him. Or is this another example of Obama campaigning dirty because Hillary's making him do it?

    But she goes to (none / 0) (#114)
    by OxyCon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:29:44 PM EST
    some secret Nazi Commie Church.
    I read about it on the Huffington Post so it must be true!
    Oh, wait. Obama goes to the same prayer meetings.
    Never mind ;)

    Oh is THAT (5.00 / 0) (#190)
    by zyx on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:29:44 PM EST
    why that story went away?  I didn't catch that one!

    LMAO.  I mean, that is FUNNY.  (The dog is giving me that puzzled look.)


    ...but was anger the right response? (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Gabriele Droz on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:12:47 PM EST
    Anger usually leads to more problems than were there to begin with.  Obama's foot must be hurting pretty badly by now.

    before we all begin sounding silly.

    Good iidea (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:32:35 PM EST
    I am proud of Clinton for seemingly taking the high road though.

    Too late...Obama beat you to it. (1.00 / 1) (#37)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:33:09 PM EST
    TY for making me laugh! (none / 0) (#45)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:39:29 PM EST
    He's doing a god job of changing the (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by tigercourse on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:17:57 PM EST
    subject by harping on the "bitter" part of his stupid speech. That's really the only part of the San Francisco talk that isn't trouble for him. Better to shift the focus to "bitter" then let it rest on his having called a large swath of Americans "gun toting, church loving racists".

    "I go to church" Good for you! Do you listen to the things your Pastor is saying?

    He goes to church. . . (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:19:12 PM EST
    but not on those days.

    OK, I'm in Trouble for this one (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by waldenpond on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:40:12 PM EST
    Obama was not in church....

    cartoon clip



    made me laugh (none / 0) (#54)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:43:31 PM EST
    kind of like a south park routine in the mold of Tom Cruise and Scientology.

    I loved it. Fantastic :-) (none / 0) (#82)
    by RalphB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:09:09 PM EST
    Obama sure did cling to Rev. Wright (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:20:56 PM EST
    for 20 years. But he never heard any racist and anti-American remarks.

    Hillary's new ad already does that. (none / 0) (#47)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:40:35 PM EST
    Obama seemed really angry today (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:18:16 PM EST
    and perhaps his "Annie Oakley" remarks were displaced frustration over getting caught.
    btw- I now believe Obama supporters can manufacture a racist comment from any comment. On that other site, they've stretched Hillary's "elitist" comment to "uppity negro."
    I am soooo glad I never fell under Obama's spell.

    He has lost his sense of humor. (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:36:46 PM EST
    Anger  won't do him any good.  It's like that song, "Send in the Clowns . . . "losing my timing this late . . . in my career "

    Again with the clowns! (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:42:25 PM EST
    I've been to a couple of those Jefferson-Jackson dinners.  They are for the entire dem party of the state, the elites and the foot soldiers.  They are meant to get the base riled up.  In short, they are rather boring and the food sucks, but they're not the time for attacking your opponent if your opponent is a fellow dem.

    I mean, if anything screams "unite" it's a Jefferson-Jackson dinner.

    Bad forum for whining.


    Sorry but clown is just so appropriate :-) (none / 0) (#85)
    by RalphB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:10:43 PM EST
    Lost? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:39:07 PM EST
    He never had a sense of humor.

    I think this is my biggest problem with him. (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:16:08 PM EST
    He has no sense of humor about himself.

    Hillary mocked her Bosnia gaffe on SNL, as well as her own 3 am ad.

    He is a spoiled frat boy that was born on third base and thought he hit a triple.

    Just like Bush. He will be a terrible President and I hope that this primary season winnows him out, as it should.


    I'm sorry. . . (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:24:33 PM EST
    but the idea of comparing Bush's start in life to Obama's is so far beyond run-of-the-mill absurdity that it has to be flagged.  Obama has earned what he's gotten while Bush has destroyed what he's been given.

    Annie Oakley Comment was Sexist NT (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:44:06 PM EST
    how? (none / 0) (#60)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:47:43 PM EST

    He wouldn't have made the same (5.00 / 11) (#113)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:28:57 PM EST
    comment about a man he was running aganist. If, for example, John Edwards and not Hillary was his opponent, and John Edwards was recalling some story about learning how to shoot a gun when he was a little boy from his grandfather, Barack wouldn't have even commented on it.

    He commented on because he thinks its somehow funny that a girl or woman would handle a gun. I think the over 400 women that have died in Iraq and the thousands of women that serve this country with firearms do not appreciate his snickering at the idea of a woman handling a gun.

    He does this kind of crap all the time, because he knows Hilary can't respond to it.


    Bravo (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:12:59 PM EST
    Extremely well said. (clap, clap, clap, clap)

    Same Undercurrent on His Slam About Drinking (5.00 / 3) (#193)
    by BDB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:32:05 PM EST
    Of course Hillary must've been faking it for the cameras because women don't drink shots or beers.  When, of course, plenty of women do, even professional women.  

    I'd like to say this was spontaneous, but Obama has a history of reverting to sexist dog whistles to try to regain white male voters, especially when Hillary is perceived as attacking him.  Prior editions include "I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal" and "you challenge the status quo and suddenly the claws come out."  

    It's a typical Obama maneuver at this point.  So spin his latest comments any way you want, he gets no benefit of the doubt from me.  Once, maybe.  But it's a pattern at this point.


    Annie Oakley and womens rights (none / 0) (#102)
    by The Realist on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:24:30 PM EST
    right on (none / 0) (#108)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:26:49 PM EST
    if asked about the Annie Oakley comment at the debate I hope Clinton takes it as a compliment and talks about what Annie did!

    And Clinton can quote Annie O's Motto (5.00 / 3) (#164)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:09:12 PM EST
    at the Oakley Foundation link above:

    "Aim at a high mark and you will hit it. No, not the first time, nor the second and maybe not the third. But keep on aiming and keep on shooting for only practice will make you perfect. Finally, you'll hit the Bull's-Eye of Success."

    Clinton actually got ahead of the credo -- she didn't hit the target the first time, in Iowa, but did aim well in New Hampshire.  And she has kept on practicing in primary after primary and got it perfect in Ohio and Texas.

    Now, next time anyone sez she should quit, tell 'em they're up against the Annie Oakley motto, and Clinton just keeps on aiming.


    He is very angry (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:21:40 PM EST
    Why would he tell them that "It's not me who is out of touch"? In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania of all places.

    "And I go to church"......might not be a good thing to add on.

    It is like he trying to self destruct or else he believes that he is untouchable.

    It sounded like the crowd he was addressing... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:02:33 PM EST
    ..ate it up though. Lately it seems when I see him speak that the audience is trying hard to uplift him instead of the other way around.

    overcompensation (none / 0) (#110)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:28:11 PM EST
    yes, the same phenomenon happens with the media.  I know Obama is in trouble when his supporters are "trying too hard"

    AHA! (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:21:41 PM EST
    I found the SC video where Obama wouldn't let it go!  It was the "testy" exchange, where they were asking Obama if Clinton (Bill) was getting into his head.

    At the time, I kept harping (yes, I'll own that) on how Obama just could NOT let anything slide.  That really bugged me at the time, because it's too much like Bush, and some folks gave me some flack for reading into it.  I would love opinions now on the video (warning: stupid ad in the beginning).  You'll see that Obama keeps hounding his point, insisting that he's right.  

    And before this is deemed ot, I'm saying this here because it is the exact same type of behavior we can see now on every stump speech and now during his speech at this supper, which is supposed to be about democratic unity.


    God, he really is like an ex-husband.  Every time you have to see him when you drop the kids off, he has to get something in.

    Wayyy too much like bush, (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Arcadianwind on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:35:14 PM EST
    I have that same feeling Kathy. Have you also seen the suppressed anger, just waiting to boil to the surface. If you watch them with the sound off, it is even more visible. The micro-expressions, the body language, the conflicting impulses, it's creepy indeed....

    In any case, this thing is self-feeding now, and he is stuck in it big-time, And anger management classes are probably not an option.


    Oh, snap! (none / 0) (#129)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:37:28 PM EST
    I think I've got Obama fatigue.

    But fortunately, with the Obama Fellows program, we'll be able to experience the OFB for the rest of our lives. Assuming they follow us out onto the ice floes, of course.

    Does anybody have a count of the constituencies he's alienated last week? Because now the OFB are working on alienating Appalachia...


    I see that all I need to do (none / 0) (#155)
    by waldenpond on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:56:27 PM EST
    is enter extra words in square brackets.  I [will] have Obama fatigue [until Clinton secures the nomination]  :)

    i was wrong w/ my last post (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:24:24 PM EST
    but someone deleted it. thanks

    you're not a Talk Left junkie until that happens (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:29:31 PM EST
    cherish the dangling, crazy-sounding response to nowhere... it's a badge of honor.

    HA! (none / 0) (#30)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:26:21 PM EST
    my bad :)

    Burning bridges (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Arcadianwind on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:24:26 PM EST
    and poisoning wells, he's out of control now. What's next--Gotterdammerung?

    That's so funny, (5.00 / 4) (#127)
    by Gabriele Droz on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:37:17 PM EST
    Wagner and Obama.  Sorry, I just had to laugh here.

    I'm a German immigrant, and, I hate to say this, see some parallels between the Obama movement and some things that happened in my own country's past (which I reject).  It's the hate-stuff and the bullying I'm having troubles with, and it's not coming from the Clinton side.


    The parallels (5.00 / 4) (#168)
    by Arcadianwind on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:13:22 PM EST
    are eerie for sure. This whole O Movement thing and the Press, etc...has gotten way too weird for me.

    The Brownshirts--the Nuremberg Rallies--How far off is a neoKristallnacht?

    What is happening here?


    Yeah, the bullying is very scary stuff (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by dotcommodity on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:24:55 PM EST
    and speaking of Germanic political campaigns theres a very funny riff in (the form of a German Expressionist image) on that Orwellian-style Obama woodcut print here at Bag News Notes that just captures that arrogance perfectly.



    wow, that captures (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Arcadianwind on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:39:56 PM EST
    the essence!

    Perfect. (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by jen on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:39:20 AM EST
    Says it all, really.

    did anyone else (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by isaac on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:46:47 AM EST
    think his original poster reminiscent of chairman mao propaganda posters?  creepy

    Heh! (none / 0) (#160)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:03:30 PM EST
    I was just thinking his speeches are beginning to remind me of Brunnhilde's monologues!

    Difficult to say. (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Faust on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:28:08 PM EST
    Without seeing the full speech of both candidates. Are the transcripts up anywhere?

    Based purely on the two quotes you gave I'd give it to Hillary.

    But again, two quotes are insufficient to give a judgment.

    I will say that if he's successfully turning clinggate into bittergate that's a win for him in the long run. If it gets filed long term as bittergate I doubt it will come back.

    People don't like to be called bitter either (none / 0) (#88)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:14:14 PM EST
    even if they ARE bitter, it can still rub the wrong way.  So maybe it doesn't make much difference.

    Besides it's the hypocrisy of talking about others who are bitter when Obama's own church had some of the most bitter rants I've ever seen in a place of worship.


    thats exactly the sort of fair play rules (none / 0) (#137)
    by dotcommodity on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:41:39 PM EST
    that I used to think every Democrat followed ..
    Without seeing the full speech of both candidates. Are the transcripts up anywhere?

    Based purely on the two quotes you gave I'd give it to Hillary.

    But again, two quotes are insufficient to give a judgment.

    We used to be better than redstate. But now, its as if pod people have taken over dailykos, who believe every snipped and spun snippet they are thrown.

    Yes, context MATTERS.


    Oh I remember those days (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Step Beyond on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:54:01 PM EST
    Those were the good ol' days. I'm probably remembering it better than it really was. But it seemed people would admit their candidate wasn't perfect, but they supported them anyway. And you could say that someone misspoke or made a blunder without having your loyalty questioned or being attacked.

    Sure there was still some ultra-loyal followers, but nothing compared to what exists now. Because overall, most were open to discussion, especially about issues. And they knew when they were sacrificing some on an issue for the candidate. Now there is no sacrifice because faults can never be acknowledged. Issues don't matter, only loyalty.

    People were less dizzy then.


    I've said it before (none / 0) (#159)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:02:58 PM EST
    he & the MSM can focus on "bitter" all they want, but us bible-thumping, gun loving hillbillies know when we've been insulted. All the spin in the world can't unring that bell.

    You know what's making me bitter!!! (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:35:14 PM EST
    Barack Obama and his divisive campaign.

    I'm clinging to the only candidate who can get us out of this mess.

    They'll have to pry Hillary... (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:48:14 PM EST
    ...out of your cold dead hands; )

    you took the words right outta my mouth. (none / 0) (#211)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:06:50 AM EST
    This is hardly over (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by daryl herbert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:36:18 PM EST
    If you think Sen. Clinton is done with this, you're wrong.  She just cut an ad on the subject ("Pennsylvania").

    Why mention the remarks at a political dinner?  Everyone there has already heard them, and Sen. Obama has to address them anyway or it looks like he's ducking the issue.  She doesn't need to say a word.  She gets to look magnanimous, too.

    on You tube (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by sas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:47:51 PM EST
    I thought this was well done (none / 0) (#73)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:59:10 PM EST
    but I wasn't sure who was behind this...is it dems for Hillary or Repubs against Obama and Hillary?

    Flineo made the video (none / 0) (#140)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:42:19 PM EST
    It isn't his first one -- he has several that you can find on youtube.  He (or she) is reputedly a Hillary supporter (but how much can you really know over the internets?) :-) If you look at his other videos, I think he is pro-Hillary, because he hasn't done anything that is anti-Hillary, only anti-Obama.

    Thanks for the link (none / 0) (#74)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:59:22 PM EST
    Very well done.

    That was great (none / 0) (#78)
    by Coldblue on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:04:20 PM EST
    If it could be edited down to a 30s spot, it would be devastating.

    VERY powerful video (none / 0) (#101)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:24:15 PM EST
    Moving, smooth, almost metaphysical in impact.
    I cannot say enough good things about that video...

    Obama is tone deaf (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by pluege on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:51:22 PM EST
    too self-absorbed and too willing to be surrounded with sycophants and believe his own hype. His character flaws remind me too much of bush.

    Bush from the 'left' (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by miguelito on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:06:30 PM EST
    Reminds me of Bush's personality and campaigning way too much for comfort.  Haven't we been fighting this type of behavior for the past 7+ years?  There are so many ways they are similar, from the creepy, borderline extreme religious affiliations to the willful disenfranchisement of voters.  I will never vote for this and if he is the nom, I will not be affiliated with this party.

    Obama works the ol' "some say" routine! (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:40:29 PM EST
    Because that's what this is:

    "It's folks that think that somehow folks are happy when they're out of a job...

    You know anybody who thinks like that? I sure don't.

    "Some say...", "Some say..." Now, who does that remind me of? Let me think....

    He (none / 0) (#147)
    by nell on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:46:55 PM EST
    has this really annoying sentence construction where he always uses 'somehow.' Usually it is "the notion that somehow," this time he just used somehow. But it drives me crazy because it is just an unnecessary word. He could just have said "It's folks that think people are happy..." I know this is petty, but it drives me up the wall!

    Oh (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:04:05 PM EST
    And you don't have a sense of humor either.

    Remember the question he was answering: (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by BlueMerlin on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:40:28 AM EST
    Obama was asked why he was not getting the support across PA that he and his supporters would like to get.   His answer, which has gotten so much attention, was to blame the voters of PA.   They turn against him for the same reason that they turn to religion and to guns,  because they are bitter and frustrated.   Obama was explaining to us that these people are incapable of responding appropriately to HIS message of hope, change and unity.  

    ok ok (1.00 / 1) (#84)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:09:43 PM EST
    Let's be honest, she didn't rise above anything, she's not stupid and she learned from when she did try to invoke the bittergate bs in front of that union gathering and they booed, hissed and called 'no, we didn't' and then cheered Obama...

    Hillary is just crafty, she knew it wasn't playing well from recent experience, so on to the next kitchen sink.

    whatever the reason (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:44:49 PM EST
    can you please explain to me what is wrong about a politician being smart enough to learn from his/her mistakes? You can call it "crafty" to try to make it an insult, but for all his much vaunted "intelligence" Obama hasn't been "crafty" enough to know when the STFU.

    LOL OMG (none / 0) (#145)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:46:18 PM EST
    I was actually saying that was good, she ISN'T STUPID...I know it's attack attack attack any time someone goes off message here, but c'mon you can't see anything through that red haze.

    I'm sure you think she was "smart" (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:25:00 PM EST
    to use the "Tonya Harding" strategy and clever to "say anything to win."

    You try to couch insults so you can claim they are compliments.

    You are very intelligent for a troll, and you are proficient at spinning Obama campaign memes.

    Those are compliments.


    LOL OMG (none / 0) (#158)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:59:29 PM EST
    then answer the question.  Why make it an insult by using the word "crafty" (And please don't insult my intelligence any more -- you didn't describe her as "crafty" -- a word associated with witchcraft and implies an evil or devious intent -- to mean it as a compliment about Hillary).
    IMO, you are the one in the red haze.

    Even when she does the "right" thing (none / 0) (#95)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:20:42 PM EST
    she's wrong?

    I can't wait for how they blame Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:26:30 PM EST
    when Obama loses PA and IN.

    not at all (none / 0) (#99)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:23:31 PM EST
    despite your projecting thats not my point.  My opinion was merely a rebuttal to Jerlayn's opinion of how her not mentioning it at all made her oh so noble and dignified....well she just mentioned it yesterday and it bombed, so she changed tactics.

    "so on to the next kitchen sink" (none / 0) (#118)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:31:15 PM EST
    and that was?!

    Ha (none / 0) (#166)
    by IzikLA on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:12:51 PM EST
    That was a great response! There are still times where the bias even slips by me!

    really, considering the mirror-begging (none / 0) (#212)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:16:24 AM EST
    obama supporters do 24/7, i find your use of the word "projecting" ironic beyond belief.  i'm not even gonna get into the meta-ness of it.

    That didn't make it to any of the local (none / 0) (#96)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:21:28 PM EST
    broadcasts I saw. They showed both speaking, but no crowd reactions for either.

    lets go to .... (none / 0) (#106)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:26:18 PM EST
    ..to the tape!

    Video Comparison of crowd reaction

    ...it was on NBC, CNN etc etc etc etc....just not in the echo chamber apparently.


    this was from earlier today, (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:28:24 PM EST
    not the Jefferson Jackson dinner this evening.

    heh (none / 0) (#120)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:32:21 PM EST
    I'm guessing you didn't read my original comment very carefully and/or understand the gist behind it.

    No worries just follow NYCstrays lead, it never happened.


    I never said that. READ my comments. n/t (none / 0) (#122)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:33:39 PM EST
    excellent (1.00 / 1) (#123)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:34:44 PM EST
    so now this thread is back to an even score ;)

    I have no doubt it happened (none / 0) (#125)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:35:51 PM EST
    Sorry, I did miss your first comment, I thought you were saying it was the dinner tape. I have no problem believing people were rude to Clinton, it happens!  She is fighting hard against a very popular guy.  She is an old hag, has been, and he is the shiney new thing.  I totally believe people walked out when she was talking.

    well done! (none / 0) (#133)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:39:36 PM EST
    You just completely went off the rails there, intentionally I hope...ah bjorn how does it feel to so 'deftly' deflect with over the top blather?

    maybe it was over the top (none / 0) (#141)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:42:21 PM EST
    but if you want me to say it is okay for people to be disrespectful at an event like this so they can show their support for Obama...I can't. I don't think it is okay.  But I guess I did blather.

    That's cable. I'm talking local evening news, (none / 0) (#115)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:30:14 PM EST
    local national news and it wasn't on noon news either. So far it hasn't been on the 11PM news and we're on sports at this point.

    Mostly watching ABC news tonight.


    therefore (none / 0) (#116)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:30:56 PM EST
    it did not happen? Ah I understand.

    Never said that. (none / 0) (#121)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:32:55 PM EST
    BUT, not getting the coverage some think it is. Unless someone is playing cable junkie, it didn't get any traction.

    apparently a couple of rude (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by english teacher on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:40:28 PM EST
    jack@sses heckled clinton. no big deal.  just one or two obnoxious, rude obama supporters.  what else is new?

    my fellow... (1.00 / 3) (#143)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:43:20 PM EST
    Americans you're jacka$$es, unless you cheer for Hillary....hmm, well at least your consistent with your pantsuit overlord.

    pantsuit overlord (none / 0) (#146)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:46:38 PM EST
    made me laugh. See I do have a sense of humor.

    never (1.00 / 1) (#148)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:49:36 PM EST
    thought anything in the opposite :)

    My original point is lost though.  She wasn't going to mention it so blatantly again since it didnt go over well...there is a difference between that and taking the high road, IMHO vs Jerlyn's...Thats it. Hillary is too smart to take the chance of it bombing again..


    Yes, but shouldn't she then (none / 0) (#150)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:51:08 PM EST
    get points for being politically astute?

    yes (1.00 / 1) (#151)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:52:17 PM EST
    I think I have directly or indirectly said that several times in this thread. My point of contention was the high road interpretation.

    Sorry, no... (none / 0) (#173)
    by IzikLA on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:17:23 PM EST
    you said 'on to the next kitchen sink'.  That doesn't sound like giving her points.

    doesn't make me laugh (none / 0) (#215)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:03:44 AM EST
    The pantsuit comments seem gross and demeaning to me. I don't get them. They are obviously meant to ridicule her. But what do they mean? Is there something wrong with her for wearing the standard business attire of a female politician? Is she supposed to wear a dress or something?

    Every pantsuit comment I've personally heard has come from men, and the 'joke' is usually accompanied by some other Hillary derision like comments about her ass or ankles or wrinkles or something. Yuck.

    BTW, I also wouldn't like mockery aimed at Obama's physical appearance or clothing.

    And, finally, I'm really tired of the piling on Obama for his comments. Enough already. I don't understand his thinking - that's for sure - but I don't like the days and days of attack on either candidate when they make a gaffe. It's almost gleeful.


    yes of course (none / 0) (#138)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:41:40 PM EST
    thats why no one was concerned about Fox lo these past few years, cable pshaww...and I must have been reading another blog called Talkleft who was eviscerating MSNBC, CNN et al about their terrible coverage of Hillary 'cuz you know cable is so inconsequential to this crowd here and just meaningless in general!!

    I was thinking in terms of PA voters (none / 0) (#163)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:06:13 PM EST
    not blogs. But, hey, why try and get an idea as to what they may be seeing . . . Many people still come home from work and turn on the local news. That's all I've been watching for 2 weeks to try and see what saturation level some of this crap has. Yes, I do check out things on line and such, but haven't hit any of the cable channels for news. It's much quieter out there than cable would have us believe. try it ;)

    That was such a short clip (none / 0) (#201)
    by hairspray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:50:39 PM EST
    of some mild groans (heard the word low and mild from another source) that I wouldn't place much stock in it.  The clip is not absolute evidence that Hillary didn't receive  applause at another stage of her speech.  Obama's clip highlighted some applause and I presume you mean that he received standing ovations based on that one minute clip.

    We do (none / 0) (#182)
    by sas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:24:25 PM EST
    not know why they were booing.

    Campbell Brown assumed they were booing her statement.  I wondered if they were booing to express their displeasure at him saying it in the first place.

    You know when the crowd boos your opponent?

    I think Campbell missed the meaning entirely.....


    Great, a complimet based on (none / 0) (#220)
    by ChrisO on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:26:40 AM EST
    a misleading statement. If you're talking about the Pittsburgh speech, it's clear from YouTube that a handful of people said something, because as has been said before, Obama supporters tend to be much ruder. Trying to portray it as "the union crowd" booing her is just plain dishonest. When Hillary gets booed at a debate, Obama supporters like to pretend that it's "just folks" in the hall. In reality, the crowds at those debates are largely made up of supporters of both candidates. We can pretty much assume the Hillary supporters aren't booing her. Maybe the Obama folks could learn a little manners.

    OK (none / 0) (#38)
    by sas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:33:13 PM EST
    check this out....

    Go to National Review Online.  Read David Kahane about the


    I wish I had a live link.

    link (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by nellre on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:37:53 PM EST
    Ouch. That story is a killer (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:44:35 PM EST
    and I wonder how long the writer was sitting on it until the time was right to run with it and not be career-slaughtered for it himself.  Ouch.

    Ouch is right (none / 0) (#69)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:54:47 PM EST
    I wonder if anyone in his staff has the nerve to show it to him.

    interesting link (none / 0) (#50)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:41:20 PM EST
    I wondered when Harvard friends might start to come out of the woodwork.

    The National Review? (none / 0) (#56)
    by BDB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:44:16 PM EST
    Really?  And a guy who not only calls him Barry, but also refers to him as B. Hussein Obama?  I'm surprised he didn't accuse Obama of killing Vince Foster.  

    David Kahane? (none / 0) (#100)
    by slr51 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:23:35 PM EST
    His previous article was a nasty hit piece on the Clintons. Maybe you should warn if you are going to link to trolls.

    I agree (none / 0) (#207)
    by standingup on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:07:43 AM EST
    This was written by someone who won't use his own name.  He repeats an alleged story from "writer knows someone who knows someone who knows someone" and published by the not so credible NRO.  Not worth repeating or believing regardless of how you feel about Obama.  



    Oh my.... (none / 0) (#66)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:49:39 PM EST
    an Obamamometer at Harvard?

    How apropos. It's about a 10 now too.

    I imagine it is difficult to be metered at Harvard and Barack did it. LOL


    Rancid (none / 0) (#174)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:19:27 PM EST
    Man, that is one of the most rancid things I've read in a long time.  I really, really dislike Obama, but that article is really Teh Suck.  Yech.

    Funny but ugly (none / 0) (#178)
    by blogtopus on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:21:49 PM EST
    I'm sure we could point out to a few dozen of these kinds of hit pieces that have been thrown at Hilly, but I still don't want to encourage this kind of stuff on Obama.

    That said, this is a precursor to MoDo September 2008. Look for it.


    I'll Be Interested to See/Read the Full Speeches (none / 0) (#49)
    by BDB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:41:12 PM EST
    I'm particularly interested in whether Obama asked his supporters to stand by him.  That part isn't in quotes in the article.  If he said it, a big if given the lack of quotation marks, I don't think that's a good sign.  I'm not sure it's a good sign that he felt the need to address it here at all.  My impression from the news report is that this continues to be a problem for him.  But without the entire speech, it's hard to tell.

    Those who predicted it would go away quickly (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:16:44 PM EST
    they were wrong.  let it be noted.

    I watched David Gregory's show tonight (none / 0) (#53)
    by gish720 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:42:51 PM EST
    on MSNBC with Joe Scarborough on as well as Rachel Maddow (an Obama enthusiast) and Joe would not let Rachel get away with only mentioning the bitter part, he made sure the part about clinging to church, guns, bigots, trade and all the unpleasant aspects of Obama's little speech got full coverage.  It was interesting.

    And This Is Why Obama Made a Mistake By Spinning (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by BDB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:48:19 PM EST
    He should've immediately apologized.  By justifying it, he gives all these rightwing nutjobs license to continue quoting him.  And the problem with that is there is no good way to spin "clings to anti-immigrant antipathy."  No good way.   So even if Clinton seems to go out of her way not to mention the "anti-immigrant antipathy" and hostility to people who look different, you can bet the wingnuts won't pull those punches.  Not now and not in October.

    His initial stubbornness on this is killing him.  He can blame Clinton all he wants, but by insisting what he said was essentially true, he invites people to continue to focus on what he initially said.  Which, again, wasn't very good.


    He should have apologized and gone to policy (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:16:17 PM EST
    In fact, I've got an Obama defender who quotes from more of the SF fundraiser to the effect that the plan was to do just that:

    But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What's the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American. So we'll go down a series of talking points.

    Never mind for the moment that the claim of health care for every American is flat out false.

    What it seems to show is that Obama was going to change tactics and take on Hillary policy bullet point for policy bullet point. And good for him if he did, because if he did that for UHC he'd look good taking the high road, fix a plan that's really broken, and re-open the dialog with the voters he just pissed off -- the ones who are gong to lose jobs or houses if they get sick.

    But n-o-o-o-o-o! He had to go on the rampage insulting and belitting Hillary again, with the whole six shooter thing. And now he's kept the issue alive, his fan base is dug in deeper, and the rest of us are more pissed off than ever (and I have to say, I didn't think I could even be this pissed off. I've completely lost my teddy bear personality).

    Nice move, Mr. Unity. Any other constituencies you want to insult? Like "Hill"billies?


    Scarborough is right wing, but no nutjob (none / 0) (#98)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:22:35 PM EST
    He has earned grudging respect from me for at least attempting intellectual honesty on that horrid network.  And this opinion of him goes back to before the primaries even began.

    Rachel can be annoying (none / 0) (#59)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:45:32 PM EST
    sometimes, but I thought the Bernard lady was way worse!  Who is she?  She is like Obama's personal cheerleader and was actively trying to see how many times she could bring up Hillary and Bosnia even though it was never the topic of conversation.

    Actually, the term of art... (none / 0) (#162)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:04:29 PM EST
    ... developed back in the day before the A listers went insane and we had a media critique, is not "cheerleader" but "fluffer." You can look it up.

    They won't tell you on MSNBC (none / 0) (#179)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:23:29 PM EST
    but the Bernard lady is a right-wing Republican babe.  She's very attractive and gives good talking-head, which is why she gets a seat at the table.  Not to mention African-American conservatives are all the rage on TV and everybody's gotta have one.

    But I digress.  She never has a discouraging word for Obama, which you would think might be a little teensy bit weird for a right-wing Republican.  Personally, I think she knows exactly what she's doing by pumping him up and dissing Hillary.


    Paul Simon (none / 0) (#119)
    by pluege on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:31:41 PM EST
    "all lies in jest
    still a man sees
    what he wants to see
    and disregards the rest
    la, la, lala, lala la
    la, la, la, la, lala laaa."

    C & L (none / 0) (#213)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:28:37 AM EST
    just a tad less biased than many others, but only a tad IMO. Particularly Nicole Belle. Never met a Clinton word she liked or an Obama one she didn't.

    "some of them are really bitter" (none / 0) (#75)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:00:04 PM EST
    Doesn't he understand how bitter (perceived as constant state) effects people? If he would just drop that and talk about angry or frustrated (not constant) most if not all Dems can relate. Yeah, I get pissed off, angry and frustrated with how things are, but there's is much more to my day than that. Calling a person bitter is almost like saying it's their 'being'.

    yeah (none / 0) (#76)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:02:04 PM EST
    anger can have very positive conotations in context, but bitter to me just means "ugly angry"!

    It's (none / 0) (#192)
    by sas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:31:23 PM EST
    not "bitter" that bothers me.

    It's clinging to religion, guns, anti immigrant hatred, xenophobia, et al  BECAUSE of economic hard times.....

    That is his offense....you know the Marxism "religion is the opiate of the people" type thinking....

    Repugs will pound him and call him a Marxist...

    they are already doing so...

    The man is totally unelectable.


    I have not seen either speech (none / 0) (#79)
    by dem08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:04:40 PM EST
    nor do I know anything beyond the little snippet that Jeralyn provided here.

    But it is clear that Obama is bad and Hillary is good. Jeesh! my guess is she is leading him 95-5.

    Why does he hate women and Small Town America? Why isn't he classy?

    Too elitist for me.

    I will have more to say when the actual speech is out but for now I can see that Hillary will win.

    And like so many here, I do almost feel sorry for him.

    Makes me so proud of Hillary.

    (More later when the speech is actually seen or read....)

    nah (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by miguelito on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:09:36 PM EST
    he's just going to unite everyone by tearing apart the party, heckuva job, Obama

    elitist (none / 0) (#87)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:11:15 PM EST
    Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite -- a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes -- are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern

    are you a dictionary? (none / 0) (#109)
    by RalphB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:27:39 PM EST
    I agree with agreetodisagree (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by waldenpond on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:36:57 PM EST
    on this one.  Elitist is the wrong word.  I think Dem08 is looking for 'snob.'

    : one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors
    : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior b: one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste

    for a visual demonstration of snob look at



    Oh my G-D (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by blogtopus on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:24:23 PM EST
    That has about the same level of radioactivity as 'Sore-Loserman'!!!

    Lovely snob (none / 0) (#177)
    by RalphB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:21:02 PM EST
    t-shirts and coffee mugs for sale yet?  :-)

    Why yes, yes they are (none / 0) (#224)
    by waldenpond on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:03:02 AM EST
    they even have refrigerator magnets of all things.

    gooberpedia (none / 0) (#117)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:30:58 PM EST
    Thank you (none / 0) (#175)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:19:28 PM EST
    "gooberpedia" best laugh of the night!

    that sounds very much like the (none / 0) (#128)
    by english teacher on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:37:23 PM EST
    crazy neocon from u of chi that all the bush high level guys sucked up to.  what was that guy's name?    you know, the one kristol, wolfowitz, pearle, and feith all "studied" under.

    Sounds like Obama (none / 0) (#188)
    by LoisInCo on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:26:29 PM EST
    are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern

    That certainly seems to be his view of his own " judgement".


    Bingo (none / 0) (#189)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:26:37 PM EST
    Fits Obama to a T.



    How did the audience respond to him? (none / 0) (#89)
    by Foxx on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:16:08 PM EST
    Do we know? How long did he speak, were they paying attention?

    I read that union members booed her when she brought up elitist.

    It seems his obfuscating may be succeeding.

    people (1.00 / 1) (#93)
    by myed2x on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:19:56 PM EST
    mostly went to the lobby to get snacks, shots and pints of ale when Hillary spoke, that or checking blackberries etc etc...packed house, boisterous cheering and rollicking support for Obama when he spoke

    wonder how many (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:25:14 PM EST
    were ringers and how many were real PA dem party attendees.

    He has a habit of packing audiences, and they have a habit of being very, very rude.


    Kathy... (none / 0) (#139)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:42:04 PM EST
    can you cite a reference for such a comment.  it almost sounds like you made that up.

    do you have a link for that (none / 0) (#149)
    by dotcommodity on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:49:43 PM EST
    packing audiences?

    The crowd may well have been on his side (none / 0) (#222)
    by ChrisO on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:42:13 AM EST
    since the dinner was in Philly, where he's strongest.

    But trying to parlay the reaction at one dinner into an informal poll of voter attitudes is just silly. Or have you forgotten all of the breathless coverage of the record breaking crowds Obama was drawing in California before Super Tuesday?

    This is from the Philadelhpia Enquirer, talking about an event last night: "Last night, Clinton and Gov. Rendell delighted a raucous crowd of several hundred in blue-collar Bristol Borough, Bucks County, by slamming Obama's misstep once again."

    So I gues by your metric, everyone's on Hillary's side now?


    Hillary Hypocrisy (none / 0) (#132)
    by bobalaska on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:39:04 PM EST
    She didn't have to mention the word "bitter" in her speech.  She is flooding the airwaves in Pennsylvania with an ad attacking Obama for making the comment.

    Maybe he'll respond by her "mistated" remarks about sniper fire in Bosnia.

    The Clinton campaign is continuing on with their molehill strategy.  Tiring.

    The boznia story isn't like (none / 0) (#169)
    by hairspray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:15:51 PM EST
    the bitter story. The Democrats who left for Reagan in the 1980's did so largely because the peceived elitism of the the Liberal Democratic establishment that didn't value the rural, low income and union workers.  They have come back more recently to the Dems and particularly to Hillary.  Now for them to perceive Obama as another elitist is very damaging to the party. The Democrats need these people especially since McCain appeals to that base as well.

    When elitist Kerry endorsed him, thats the tipoff (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by dotcommodity on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:30:47 PM EST
    that he is just going to be another blowhard like Kerry.

    But he mentioned the word bitter (none / 0) (#200)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:44:30 PM EST
    But you will note that he changed the tone as to being forgotten and angry at Washington. Hmmmm, Health Care, Economy, Iraq and Gas Prices.

    Maybe he should (none / 0) (#202)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:14:59 AM EST
    and reveal more of himself in addition to his Annie Oakley comment that bombed. With luck, another Rezko tidbit will also surface.

    She is (none / 0) (#214)
    by Andy08 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:21:16 AM EST
    not mentioning the word "bitter" in her ad; but what is
    offensive to most people (modulo Obama fans) which is that
    they "cling to religion and guns b/c of their frustrations" (uh?)

    that's the first time I've heard that here... (none / 0) (#142)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:43:04 PM EST
    thank you. seriously.  

    Here's another one for ya... (none / 0) (#152)
    by americanincanada on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:53:27 PM EST
    I don't believe she lied but I do believe she conflated the event. But here is the kicker...I don't care. It was 12 years ago and at least she was there.

    What has Obama done other than tell us all that she is the best on whatever issue he is talking about. I am sorry but I don't want to be told what is wrong with me. I want to know how you are going to fix what is wrong with the p[olicies of the administration you might be replacing.


    I know this is OT, but (none / 0) (#156)
    by Josmt on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:57:39 PM EST
    There's a rumor Hillary will show up in the Colbert Report.  

    Thursday (none / 0) (#194)
    by Regency on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:34:48 PM EST
    Yep, she's gonna brave him.

    Fearless. (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by oldpro on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:21:46 AM EST
    The woman is fearless.

    Did Gore Lie (none / 0) (#157)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:58:31 PM EST
    When he said he invented the internet?

    he didn't say that (none / 0) (#184)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:24:55 PM EST
    please cite. liar.  can't wait for the context.

    Oh really now (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:41:55 PM EST
    March 9, 1999; CNN interview
    CLAIM: "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."

    TRUTH: The Internet is an outgrowth of a Pentagon program established in 1969. In the 1980s, Gore supported legislation considered favorable to the Internet's development.

    I only post that to show what YOU look like.

    When you say Clinton lied about Bosnia THIS is what you sound like.

    And YOU are the reason why, when Obama is attacked the same way, just the same way Gore is attacked HERE I will consider it a sad sort of schadenfreud.

    Lets look at that link again:


    That's YOU baby.

    That's all you.

    That's your tactic.

    That's your candidate's tactic.

    And I will laugh when it gets turned on your candidate.

    Yes.  Even in the General Election, I will laugh.


    edgar, thank you for doing this (none / 0) (#210)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:04:23 AM EST
    stuff, the counterfactual hypos.  they help even me to appreciate more fully just how wrong this stuff is, so i imagine it has to have some impact on the obama folks.  at least i hope, anyway.

    We (none / 0) (#176)
    by sas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:20:45 PM EST
    think the Bosnia thing is much ado about nothing.

    ok... (none / 0) (#186)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:25:28 PM EST
    of course you don't.

    I think she lied (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by angie on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:24:59 AM EST
    or at least "exaggerated" (she did go to a war zone, after all). It's not the first time a politician, shall we say, "stretched the truth" to pad their resume (cough chair of senate sub-committee overseeing NATO cough). But she apologized, she poked fun at herself over it, and she dropped it -- which is exactly what your guy should have done with bittergate. If he had done that and we refused to drop it, like you are refusing to drop the Bosnia thing, I wonder what you would be saying.

    Oh give it up (none / 0) (#196)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:37:30 PM EST
    Move on, let go. I know Sen Obama can't, but please maybe his followers can set an example...

    Hmmm (none / 0) (#205)
    by phat on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:30:21 AM EST
    Something is telling him he should be doing this. I can't quite figure out what it is, though. This is not the behavior of a front-runner. If he thought he had the advantage as much as everybody else thinks, he wouldn't be doing this. Something is making him do this.

    Maybe the numbers in NC and PR don't look so hot. Maybe he thinks he needs to deliver a knockout blow in PA. Maybe the super-delegates are telling him he has to do something to get their vote like a PA knockout.

    It just seems odd. I can't imagine what kind of advantage this gives him. He's responded (not especially well) to the criticisms of what he said. He's handled OK, sort-of. But to keep bringing it up is just odd, because I don't think continuing this helps him very much.

    Maybe it does.

    she was heckled (none / 0) (#221)
    by isaac on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:33:50 AM EST
    so now it is going away?  i dont think so.  and to assume she didnt bring it up at the jj dinner is absurd post hoc thinking, it was a UNITY dinner, she clearly outclassed him

    comments over 200, now closed (none / 0) (#223)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:02:55 AM EST