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Ten Key States Update and a Perspective on Pennsylvania

In 2004, the Democratic ticket carried 20 states with 252 electoral votes. Obviously, it wasn't enough. What other states are most likely to play a role in 2008? Which of the Democratic candidates would be the Party's most successful candidate in the general election?

William Arnone, a long-time Democratic Party activist who worked with Robert F. Kennedy in 1967-68 has updated his July, 2007 and February, 2008 analysis (reprinted here) of "Key States in the 2008 Presidential Election."

The ten states are: Arkansas; Colorado; Florida; Iowa; Missouri; Nevada; New Mexico; North Carolina; Ohio; and Virginia.

With his permission, I reprint below his newest analysis, received yesterday, which also includes a thorough discussion of whether the Dems will keep Pennsylvania:

This is a further update on the "Key States in the 2008 Presidential Election" analysis I circulated last July. These are states in which the Democratic Presidential ticket needs to compete effectively in November in order to have a good chance of being elected. The Democratic Presidential ticket must win one or more of these key states, in addition to the 20 states with 252 electoral votes carried by the Democratic Presidential ticket in 2004.

Here's an update on the ten key states: Arkansas; Colorado; Florida; Iowa; Missouri; Nevada; New Mexico; North Carolina; Ohio; and Virginia.

  • Arkansas (6 electoral votes): Hillary Clinton won with 70% of the vote (202,010) to Barack Obama's 27% (77,970) in this state's February 5th open primary. Since Independents were able to vote, it may be viewed as an especially good indicator of the Democratic candidates' potential appeal in November. Arkansas has voted for the winners of the last nine Presidential elections. Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried the state by 17% in 1996 and by 18% in 1992. Since 1964, the only other Presidential election in which the Democratic ticket carried the state was 1976, when Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale won with a huge margin of 30%.
  • Colorado (9 electoral votes): Obama won with 67% of the vote (79,344) to Clinton's 32% (38,587) in this state's February 5th closed caucuses. The Republican Presidential ticket carried Colorado by 5% in 2004. This was a lower margin than the 2000 election, in which the Republican ticket carried the state by almost 9%. The Republican ticket carried the state by 1% in 1996. Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried the state by 4% in 1992. Colorado has voted Democratic in Presidential elections only three times since Franklin Roosevelt’s candidacies: Clinton-Gore in ’92; Johnson-Humphrey in ’64; and Truman-Barkley in ’48.
  • Florida (27 electoral votes): Clinton won 50% of the vote (865,099) to Obama's 33% (571,333) in this state's January 29th closed nonbinding primary. The Republican Presidential ticket carried Florida by 5% in 2004. This was a higher margin than the 2000 election, in which the Republican ticket carried the state by less than 1% (537 votes) in a highly controversial election. Overall, the Republican ticket carried 58 of the state’s 67 counties in 2004. Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried the state by 6% in 1996. The Republican ticket carried the state by 2% in 1992 and by 22% in 1988. Florida has voted for the Democratic Presidential ticket only three times since 1964: Johnson-Humphrey with 51% in 1964; Carter-Mondale with 52% in 1976; and Clinton-Gore with 48% in 1996. Republicans have not won the White House without winning Florida since 1924.
  • Iowa (7 electoral votes): Obama won 38% of the vote to Clinton's 29% in this state's January 3rd open proportional caucuses on. (The Iowa Democratic Party has not released the actual vote count.) The Republican Presidential ticket carried Iowa by 1% in 2004. This was the first time the Republican ticket carried the state since 1984. The Democratic ticket carried the state by .032 percentage points in 2000. Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried the state by 10% in 1996 and by 6% in 1992. The Democratic ticket carried the state by 10% in 1988, which represented the largest Democratic margin since 1964, when the Johnson-Humphrey ticket carried Iowa with a margin of 24%.
  • Missouri (11 electoral votes): Obama won 49% of the vote (405,284) to Clinton's 48% (395,287) in this state's February 5th open primary. Since Independents were able to vote, it may be viewed as an especially good indicator of the Democratic candidates' potential appeal in November. The Republican Presidential ticket carried Missouri by 7% in 2004. This was a higher margin than the 2000 election, in which the Republican ticket carried the state by 3%. Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried this state in 1996 by 6% and in 1992 by 10%. With one exception (1952), Missouri has voted with the winner of every Presidential election since 1900. No other state has this record of accuracy in Presidential elections.
  • Nevada (5 electoral votes): Clinton won 51% of the vote (approximately 59,000) to Obama's 45% (approximately 52,000) in this state's January 19th closed proportional caucuses. The Republican Presidential ticket carried Nevada by 3% in 2004. This was a lower margin than the 2000 election in which the Republican ticket carried the state by 4%. Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried the state by 1% in 1996 and by 3% in 1992. Since 1964, Nevada has voted for the Republican Presidential ticket, except for Clinton-Gore in 1992 and 1996.
  • New Mexico (5 electoral votes): Clinton won 49% of the vote (68,084) to Obama's 48% (67,010) in this state's February 5th closed primary. New Mexico has had the two closest most recent Presidential elections. In 2004, the Republican Presidential ticket carried the state by approximately 6,800 votes (less than 1%). In 2000, the Democratic Presidential ticket carried the state by 365 votes (.006 percentage points). Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried the state by almost 8% in 1996 and by 9% in 1992. The Republican ticket carried the state by 5% in 1988, which had been the sixth consecutive Presidential election in which the Republican ticket carried New Mexico.
  • Ohio (20 electoral votes): Clinton won 54% of the vote (1,207,086) to Obama's 44% (979,025) in this state's March 4th open Democratic Presidential primary. Since Independents were able to vote, it may be viewed as an especially good indicator of the Democratic candidates' potential appeal in November. The Republican Presidential ticket carried Ohio by 2% in 2004. This was a slightly lower margin than the 2000 election in which the Republican ticket carried the state by less than 4%. Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried the state by 6% in 1996 and by 2% in 1992. No Republican has ever been elected President without carrying Ohio.
  • Virginia (13 electoral votes): Obama won 64% of the vote (620,919) to Clinton's 35% (344,477) in this state's February 12th open primary. Since Independents were able to vote, it may be viewed as an especially good indicator of the Democratic candidates' potential appeal in November. The Republican Presidential ticket carried Virginia by 9% in 2004. This was a slightly higher margin than the 2000 election in which the Republican ticket carried the state by 8%. The Republican ticket carried the state by 2% in 1996 and by 4% in 1992. Since 1964, the Democratic ticket has not carried the state, but the margins have often been close.

Of the ten key states, one has yet to hold its primary. It is:

  • North Carolina (15 electoral votes): This state's Democratic Presidential primary will be held on May 6th. The Republican Presidential ticket carried North Carolina by 12% in 2004. This was a slightly lower margin than the 2000 election in which the Republican ticket carried the state by 13%. The Republican ticket carried the state by 5% in 1996 and by less than 1% in 1992. Since 1964, the Democratic Presidential ticket has carried this state only once – Carter-Mondale by 11% in 1976.

The winner of the popular vote in the Democratic primary or caucus in each of these key states will have a higher likelihood of carrying that state in November. This is a critical consideration in determining who is likely to be the Party's most successful Presidential candidate in the general election.

Summary

Thus far, Hillary Clinton has won five of these key states -- Arkansas (decisively), Florida (decisively, but in a primary that was not recognized by the Democratic National Committee for the purpose of selecting delegates to the Party's convention), Nevada (solidly), New Mexico (slightly), and Ohio (solidly). Barack Obama has won four -- Colorado (decisively), Iowa (solidly), Missouri (slightly), and Virginia (decisively). Clinton's popular vote total in these keys states was 3,179,630 (2,314,531 if Florida's vote is excluded), or 52.7%, vs. Obama's 2,852,885 (2,281,552 if Florida's vote is excluded), or 47.3%.

Of these states, Clinton's five have a total of 63 electoral votes, while Obama's four have a total of 40 electoral votes. Together with all of the 20 states that went Democratic in the 2004 Presidential election, both Clinton's and Obama's key states would have enough electoral votes to give the Democratic Presidential ticket victory in November.

This analysis does not assess, however, the possibility that the Republican Presidential ticket, headed by John McCain, might win one or more of the 20 states that went Democratic in 2004. Based on the margins of the Kerry-Edwards ticket, the 2004 Democratic states that might be winnable by the Republican Presidential ticket in 2008 are: Michigan (17 electoral votes, 3.4% Democratic margin); Minnesota (9, 3.5%); New Hampshire (4, 1.3%); Oregon (7, 4.1%); Pennsylvania (21, 2.5%); and Wisconsin (10, 0.4%). These six states have a total of 68 electoral votes.

What to Look for in Pennsylvania

The Keystone State is not one of the key states identified, since it did go Democratic in 2004 (albeit by only 2.5%) and 2000 (by only 4.2%) and has done so more often than not in the last ten Presidential elections. It is, however, one of the states that might be winnable by the Republican Presidential ticket in 2008.

Pennsylvania's population contains significant numbers of three of the four key voting constituencies that the Democratic Presidential ticket needs to carry to win the White House in 2008. They are:

  • Catholics: Of those who voted in the 2004 elections, 27% were Catholic. With Catholic voters, the Republican Presidential ticket in 2004 had a margin of 5%. This was a shift of 7 percentage points from the Democratic Presidential ticket’s margin of 2% in 2000. The last Presidential election in which the Democratic ticket lost the Catholic voter to the Republican ticket was in 1988 (Dukakis-Bentsen vs. Bush-Quayle), when the margin of loss was also 5%. The Democratic Presidential ticket of Clinton-Gore in 1992 and 1996 carried the Catholic vote by margins of 9% and 16% respectively. Except for the 2000 election, every Presidential ticket in recent history that has won the Catholic vote has captured the Presidency.

In the 2004 Presidential election, Catholics in Pennsylvania voted for Kerry-Edwards over Bush-Cheney 51%-49%.

Approximately 29% of Pennsylvania's population is Catholic.

  • Older Voters: Voters age 60 or older represented 24% of those voting in the 2004 election. Of these, voters age 65 or older represented 19% of those voting in the 2004 election. In the 2006 Congressional elections, voters age 60 or older represented 27% of those voting. This was an increase of 3 percentage points from the 2004 elections. Voters age 65 or older represented 16% of total voters in 2006. This was a decrease of 3 percentage points from the 2004 elections. Of voters age 65 or older, 77% are registered to vote. This represents a higher voter registration percentage than any other age group.

Beginning with the 1976 Presidential election, people age 65 or older have constituted a larger share of actual voters than their portion of the total voting-age population. In the 2004 and 2000 Presidential elections, voters age 65 or older had turnouts of 69% and 67% respectively, which were the highest turnout rates among all age groups.

In 2004, the Democratic ticket nationwide lost voters age 60 or older to the Republican ticket by a margin of 8%. This was a shift of 12 percentage points from the Democratic Presidential ticket’s margin of 4% in 2000. The Democratic ticket’s margin of loss among voters age 65 or older was 5%. The greater margin of loss among voters age 60 or older was due to the Republican ticket winning the votes of those aged 60-64 by a 15% margin. Among older white voters in 2000, however, the Republican ticket had a margin of 6%. More white older voters have backed the Republican Presidential ticket in seven of the last eight Presidential campaigns. Of those age 65 or older, 81% are white.

The last Presidential election in which the Democratic ticket lost older voters to the Republican ticket was in 1988 (Dukakis-Bentsen vs. Bush-Quayle), when the margin of loss was 1%.

Of voters age 60 or older, 54% voted for Republican House candidates in 2004 compared with 51% in 2002 and 48% in 2000. In the 1998 Congressional elections, 55% of older voters voted Republican. In the 2006 Congressional elections, voters age 60 or older voted for Democratic candidates by a 2% margin. This represented a shift to the Democratic Party of 9 percentage points from 2004. Of these older voters, 37% described themselves as Republicans, 36% as Democrats, and 27% as Independents.

Approximately 20% of Pennsylvania's population is over age 60, with nearly 16% over age 65. One in four Pennsylvania residents is over age 55.

  • Women: In every Presidential election since 1980, a gender gap has existed. Women have more often supported Democratic candidates, while men have more often supported Republican candidates. In recent Presidential elections, the gap has ranged from 4% to 11%. In 1992, women voters supported the Democratic Presidential ticket in larger numbers than men by 4%. In the 2000 election, the Democratic ticket won the women's vote by 11%.

    Of the voters nationwide who are men, the Republican Presidential ticket in 2004 had a margin of 11%, which was the same margin as in 2000. Of the voters nationwide who are women, the Democratic Presidential ticket in 2004 had a margin of 3%. This represented a shift of 8 percentage points to the Republican Presidential ticket from the Democratic ticket’s margin among women voters in 2000. This decrease in the margin of women voting for the Democratic Presidential ticket may have been the single most important factor in the outcome of the 2004 Presidential election. This gender gap is seen in all age groups, ranging from a 4% Democratic margin among women voters under age 30 to 11% among women voters over age 60.

While women tend to vote more Democratic and men more Republican, even larger differences exist between married and unmarried voters. Women of voting age who have never been married, are divorced or are widowed comprise 42% of all registered women voters. In the 2000 Presidential election, unmarried women voters represented the same percentage of the electorate as Jewish, African-American, and Hispanic/Latino voters combined.

Of married women overall, 55% voted for the Republican Presidential ticket in 2004. Of married women with children, 59% voted for the Republican ticket in 2004. Approximately 60% of single women voted for the Democratic ticket in 2004. The Democratic Presidential ticket, however, has carried the unmarried segment of the electorate in every election since 1988.

Approximately 52% of Pennsylvania's population are women.

Pennsylvania does not, however, have a significant percentage of voters in this fourth key voting constituency:

  • Hispanics/Latinos: Hispanic/Latino voters comprise 6% of the voting population nationwide. This represents an increase of 2% since 2000. With 13% of the total population and 17% of the population under age 18, Hispanics/Latinos are potentially the fastest-growing segment of the electorate. In 2004, the Democratic ticket nationwide won Hispanic/Latino voters by a margin of 11%. This was a shift to the Republican Party of 25 percentage points from the Democratic Presidential ticket’s margin of 36% in 2000. In 1996, the Democratic ticket nationwide won Hispanic/Latino voters by a margin of 51%. The 2004 Presidential election represented a continuing trend of Hispanic/Latino voters away from the Democratic ticket. The 44% share of the Hispanic/Latino vote achieved by the 2004 Republican Presidential ticket surpassed the previous high of 37% for the 1984 Republican Presidential ticket (Reagan-Bush). Although subsequent revisions of the Edison/Mitofsky National Elections Pool (NEP) exit poll reduced this share to 42%, the Republican Presidential ticket in 2004 won a greater share of the Hispanic/Latino vote than any other Republican Presidential ticket since the advent of Presidential election exit polls in 1972.

In the 2006 Congressional elections, Hispanic/Latino voters voted for Democratic candidates by a 19% margin. This represented a shift to the Democratic Party of 8 percentage points from 2004.

There is diversity among Hispanic/Latino voters nationwide. About two-thirds have roots in Mexico. The remainder includes voters with roots in Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, and other parts of Latin and South America.

Approximately 4% of Pennsylvania's population is Hispanic-Latino.

In the states that have held primaries/caucuses thus far, Clinton has proven to be more attractive to each of these four segments than Obama. What makes these four segments critical to the Democratic Party's chances in November? Unlike African-Americans or younger voters who have voted steadfastly for the Democratic Presidential ticket in recent elections, Catholics, Hispanics-Latinos, older voters and women have tended to vote less Democratic in recent Presidential elections. In the 2004 Presidential election, the Democratic Party suffered significant losses of support among each of these four critical constituent groups.

Thanks to Mr. Arnone for letting us reprint this. Now, what do you all think?

< Sunday Open Thread - Michigan And Florida Still Front And Center | The Republican Cross-Over Vote: Not a Factor >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Of the winnable Bush states (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:38:22 AM EST
    I disagree N. Ca is winnable for either.

    Clinton has advantages in Florida, Ohio and Arkansas, 53 EVS.

    Obama has advantages in Colorado, Iowa, Virginia, New Mexico and Nevada. 39 EVs.

    Missouri is a wash I think.

    The analysis is the same - higher ceiling for Obama. Lower floor too.

    Imagine (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by tek on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:47:35 AM EST
    don't know why you say that Obama has an advantage in NV.  Clinton won Nevada despite some very questionable tactics from the Obama team.  It's a big hispanic/native American state.  Those states generally go for Clinton.

    Parent
    Nevada looks like a Clinton state to me as well. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by RalphB on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:05:42 PM EST
    I don't think he said (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:44:30 AM EST
    N.C. is winnable, I think he said it's a key state to win. His point is "The winner of the popular vote in the Democratic primary or caucus in each of these key states will have a higher likelihood of carrying that state in November. This is a critical consideration in determining who is likely to be the Party's most successful Presidential candidate in the general election."

    Parent
    I'll buy that (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:46:30 AM EST
    Not going to happen this election.

    Parent
    Clinton won New Mexico! (none / 0) (#17)
    by zyx on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:18:10 PM EST
    New Mexico might go COMPLETELY BLUE in its congressional delegation this fall.  Udall is up ahead in the polls for the Senate seat by, uh, oodles.

    Why don't people think Clinton will win NM, and that Obama will?

    Parent

    Colorado (none / 0) (#44)
    by dissenter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:33:32 PM EST
    I think it is wishful thinking to think either Dem can win CO. I wish that wasn't true but I don't see it. The state is a lot more than Denver, Boulder and Pueblo. And it has a ton of military.

    Parent
    But Colorado (none / 0) (#53)
    by txchicanoforhillary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:00:12 PM EST
    did elect a Democratic state legislature for the first time, in I think, 40+ years.  Colorado is definitely trending more progressive/Democratic.  It is clearly a purple state with more of a blue hue ;).  I would think that it will def be in play for the GE.

    Parent
    Pennsylvania's Demographics Are Definitely A (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by MO Blue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:39:09 AM EST
    much better fit for Clinton than Obama. She does extremely well with seniors and women.

    Interesting (none / 0) (#6)
    by blogtopus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:45:35 AM EST
    As medicine gets better, we're going to have more 'older' people. Are there any numbers as to how many 'older' people there are compared to 'younger'' people?

    Unless there's some kind of baby boom soon, we're all going to have to pander to the older crowd sooner than later. You can already see it in the number of prescription drug commercials.

    Nothing wrong with older people, just wondered about the numbers.

    Parent

    Not only "older" (none / 0) (#10)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:56:19 AM EST
    but having more careers and fewer children.  I think the "older people" demographic is going to hold for quite some time, and think it would be futile for Democrats to ignore it for the "creative class" (whatever the heck that is).

    Parent
    Short Definition For "Creative Class" (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:58:59 AM EST
    Obama voters.

    Makes them feel superior. Kinda above the fray.

    Parent

    The young get older soon enough. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:09:23 PM EST
    Maybe I'm just deluding myself because I am in the baby boomer demographic but I just don't see the boomers fitting the stereotypes that were created about older voters more of my parents generation. Their's was the generation that would vote to cut school funding as soon as their kids were out of school.I know cause they did it when my kids were  in school. I can't conceive that too many of my cohort would do that.

    In spite of the fact that some young people are behaving a little obnoxiously now (snark!!!), we still look at them as our children and love them. For example, I was as a teenager guilty of calling Viet Nam vets baby killers. (Not one of my prouder memories.) But while I am still kind of anti-military, my view of the troops in Iraq is as if they were my children.

    Parent

    The downside (none / 0) (#28)
    by ding7777 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    is even though many will live a couple years longer, there will be more boomer deaths per capita than from any other group

    Parent
    pander to the older crowd (none / 0) (#126)
    by cal1942 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:39:44 PM EST
    um, guess what blogtopus.

    One day you'll be a part of that "older crowd."

    Always amusing when reading young people talking about 'older people,' somehow missing that they will soon enough be 'old.'

    Parent

    Philly will go to Obama (none / 0) (#25)
    by ding7777 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:56:19 PM EST
    and he will do well in Pittsburgh.  

    Hillary will do well in the rest of the state (which normally goes Republican in the GE.)

    Also, the are some anti-Hispanic areas which may favor Obama.

    I think Hillary will take the PA primary but not by the Ohio margin.

    Parent

    Ant-Hispanic areas? What do you mean? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:59:10 PM EST
    ...areas in which people will vote for Obama because he is perceived as the anti-Latino candidate? Please explain, I hadn't heard of that.

    Parent
    Hazelton, PA (none / 0) (#31)
    by ding7777 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    passed some anti-hispanic legilation. (link)

    Parent
    And (none / 0) (#33)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:07:08 PM EST
    how the heck does that make them likely Obama voters?

    Makes them sound rather bigoted in general to me frankly.

    Parent

    Yeah but what I am asking is... (none / 0) (#35)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:10:05 PM EST
    ...do those people think of Obama as the anti-Hispanic candidate? I hope not.

    Parent
    don't think that translates to Obama votes (none / 0) (#55)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:04:02 PM EST
    I thought the legislation in that town and others was anti-illegal immigrant. But I'd say you're right that some percentage of that vote is based on some bigotry. I'm not sure either of those groups would go for Obama though. The non bigots might remember he was for drivers licenses in CA and Clinton wasn't. And the bigot ones might be bigoted towards Obama for being black as well. Then again, they probably don't like women either, so who knows.

    Parent
    Where is it (none / 0) (#69)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:25:24 PM EST
    anti-Hispanic?

    Parent
    I don't know what you think. . . (none / 0) (#36)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:12:37 PM EST
    you're saying, but I don't think I like the sound of it very much.

    Parent
    Obama is stronger on immigrant rights. (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ramo on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:13:38 PM EST
    See the drivers' license debate, for instance.

    Why would "anti-hispanic" people vote for him?

    Parent

    x (none / 0) (#106)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 04:08:54 PM EST
    Dubya getting close enough to steal the election in 2000 and then winning in 2004 is ample evidence for me that I do not understand the voting public.  That said, I really must predict that people in Hazleton will not be voting for Obama.  

    The youth vote in Pittsburgh may help him but I don't see Pittsburgh going Obama (much less certain about that).

    Philly? He may have some trouble there as well, but we shall see (least certain about this prediction). Sen Obama endorsed the losing candidate for Philly mayor. The winning candidate is now backing Hillary Clinton. Philly is nothing but machine politics, so the race there will be very interesting.

    Another interesting aspect to the race are the Philly ring counties. They are Obama's demographics but went for Rendell, who back Hillary.  

    Parent

    Oh! (none / 0) (#110)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 04:13:13 PM EST
    Forgot to add that Obama's youngsters need to get their act together because they won't be able to come out on Apr 22 and vote unless they've registered a month beforehand.

    And if they've registered at home, they will have to get an absentee ballot. If they want to vote where they're attending school, they'll have to have changed their registration ahead of time.

    So I would not count on the youth vote for Obama as heavily in PA as in other states.  

    Parent

    Why does the (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by AF on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:57:24 AM EST
    "winner of the popular vote in the Democratic primary or caucus . . . have a higher likelihood of carrying that state in November?"

    Basic median voter theory suggests that is not necessarily true.

    BTD seems to agree with me, giving Obama the edge in New Mexico and Nevada despite losing those states to Hillary.

    Obama says in Mississippi (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by RalphB on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:14:00 PM EST
    that Katrina spurred him to run for president.

    link

    Pander number 400,892 for the week  :-)


    Let's look at his campaign launch (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:37:43 PM EST
    "After he was elected to the Senate, Obama vowed to serve out his term. But he opened the door to a 2008 presidential campaign during an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press" in October [2006], saying that, "given the response I've been getting," he would consider the possibility after the midterm elections."  

    From a 2007 AP story with not a word about Katrina. So his decision was based on the response he was getting -- the fundraising, it says, and the support of Durbin and others -- but NOT on his response to what Mississippians and others were NOT getting from our government.

    Parent

    Have to ask again (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by RalphB on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:47:00 PM EST
    which of the candidates will say anything to win?  Hint: it's not the woman.


    Parent
    give me a break (none / 0) (#50)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:48:58 PM EST
    She is willing to praise John McCain on EXPERIENCE, something she KNOWS will haunt her in the GE if she gets nominated.  But she accepts that risk because she feels that she needs to say it to get the nod.

    Politicians are pander bears.  They all are especially at the national level.

    Parent

    Flyerhawk (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by auntmo on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:33:10 PM EST
    Thanks  for finally  agreeing  that Obama  is  also  a  pander  bear,  and  is  really no  different  than  other politicians.    

    Point taken.

    Parent

    I have said that many times (none / 0) (#84)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:00:55 PM EST
    I don't support politicians because they are my savior.  I support them because I believe they are best choice for the country because they will make the right choices.

    Parent
    Flyerhawk (none / 0) (#100)
    by auntmo on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:32:40 PM EST
    Well,   at  least   you  admit   Obama  brings  nothing  new,  nothing  "above  it all,"  nothing   really  different.    A  pander  bear,   like  all of  them.    

    Which  some of  us  always  knew.  

    Parent

    That is not a pander (none / 0) (#81)
    by Marvin42 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:56:35 PM EST
    Its called a differentiating. What does that have to do with pandering?

    Parent
    You're right (none / 0) (#86)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:02:23 PM EST
    She wasn't pandering. She was simply mouthing Republican talking points in an effort to disparage her opponent.

    It's worse than pandering.

    Parent

    According to you (none / 0) (#88)
    by Marvin42 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:08:15 PM EST
    According to me differentiating yourself from the opponent is called politics. Pandering is called politics that I HATE.

    We disagree on this. I don't mind attacks on the candidate of my choice, but telling people in need what they want to hear is another.


    Parent

    You misunderstand me (none / 0) (#91)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:18:23 PM EST
    I don't have a problem with Hillary attacking Obama.

    I have a problem with Hillary praising McCain as a way of attacking Obama.  There is a big difference there.

    Parent

    She didn't praise McCain, (none / 0) (#118)
    by Anne on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:25:35 PM EST
    she stated that he had a lifetime of experience.  

    If Obama had said, "McCain is a man.  I am a man.  And all Hillary has are breasts," would that be considered praise for McCain?  Or just a simple statement of fact?

    I understand why people didn't like Hillary's comment, but it wasn't praise.

    Parent

    Marvin (none / 0) (#101)
    by auntmo on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:35:15 PM EST
    Well  said.  

    How  could  anyone  vote  for  Obama?   By  JJJr's  standards,  he  showed   NO  TEARS  after  Katrina,  and  therefore  isn't  worthy. :)

    Parent

    Run Options Wer a Consideration in 2005 (none / 0) (#127)
    by cal1942 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:50:59 PM EST
    Obama was going to vote for Roberts as CJ (pre-Katrina) in 2005. His top Senate Aid advised against the Roberts vote for Presidential considerations.

    It's been his intent from the start; the Katrina stuff is just pandering horsesh*t. The everyday Obama schtick.

    Most dishonest Democratic candidate in my memory and that goes back into the '50s.

    Parent

    Left bloggers (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Janet on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:38:55 PM EST
    I have to agree on Huffungton Post and now Randi Rhodes on Air America. On Friday she was totally over the top about Hillary. She stated that the HRC campaign started the Obama is muslim e-mail. and a number of other distorted facts. I was so mad I called Air America to complain.

    I sometimes (none / 0) (#92)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:19:06 PM EST
    um, often think that all of this is Karl Rove's favorite dream....

    Parent
    Karl Rove (none / 0) (#95)
    by Janet on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:22:00 PM EST
    He probably is laughing at us take a page out of his playbook. I think the left is just as bad as the right. All are just ugly.

    Parent
    I knew that was going to happen. (none / 0) (#96)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:25:49 PM EST
    I thought it was funny that there was a diary on KOS about how carefully and insidiously the producers of the 3 am ad have prominently placed a racial slur in the little girl's pajamas. Now it turns out that it was stock footage, and that the little girl in the ad is a young adult now and an Obama volunteer.

    I am really surprised at Randy Rhodes. These folks can make me start wondering if I was nuts to ever take them seriously.

    Parent

    Me too (none / 0) (#102)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:41:47 PM EST
    It puts a whole new light on EVERYTHING they say on ever topic, not just about this issue.  The credibility is gone.

    ...although I'll say sometimes I only listened to Randy Rhodes for the red meat satisfaction, not because I really believed what she was saying to be the non-biased facts.

    Now?  I just don't listen to her at all and never weill again.

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#113)
    by hitchhiker on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 04:21:52 PM EST
    No interest in Stephanie Miller or Ed Schultz, either.  I wonder what they'll do with themselves if the ticket actually turns out to be HRC/BO?

    Will they just stomp their feet and refuse to play, or pretend they never said all that stuff, or go on actively sabotaging the party?

    What a waste.  We still have 2 very fine candidates, as far as I can see . . . and yet there's a decreasing sense of pride and an increasing bitterness amongst the supposedly Reality-based.  People complain about the tight moderation at TL, but I'm here to tell you that it's become necessary.

    Parent

    Obama E-Mail (none / 0) (#128)
    by cal1942 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:56:51 PM EST
    I first received the Obama Email in spring or summer 2007 from people who regularly bombard me with right-wing crap.

    As I recall it was included with a couple of really vile anti-immigrant screeds.

    This stuff didn't come from Clinton, that's all Obama talk.

    Parent

    Comment deleted with (none / 0) (#9)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:48:29 AM EST
    attack on Obama supporters. Comments here should address the analysis in Mr. Arnone's article. Insults are not allowed.

    I think the fact that Hillary (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:56:43 AM EST
    apparently shuts McCain out of OH and FL, and puts him at a disadvantage in PA is important.

    I personally think that the Obama risk is much higher, and that we better have a serious discussion about what the WIlder effect could mean for him in places like VIrginia.

    Pennsylvania (none / 0) (#16)
    by txchicanoforhillary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:15:35 PM EST
    Should bode well for HRC...if the demographics hold.  I won't use the OH neighbor logic (see Wisconsin).  PA also has a Dem governor who supports HRC and is working to GOTV.  It would behoove us, no matter who we support, to stay focused on defeating the R's this November.  It's my hope though that we nominate Senator Clinton.

    Clinton would clearly be stronger in Arkansas (none / 0) (#18)
    by tigercourse on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:20:49 PM EST
    Florida, Ohio and probably Missouri. Which is more EV's then where Obama appears stronger (New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, etc.)
    Pennsylvania should have been one of those key states (replace North Carolina). And she's a better bet in a GE there as well.


    What happened (none / 0) (#19)
    by rooge04 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:20:50 PM EST
    in SC is what solidified me on Obama and how I feel about him. Previous to him trying to paint the Clinton's as racist, HRC still had the majority of the black vote. After his viability was established by winning IA and the Axelrod narrative that the Clintons were now racists that used the Black vote and were now trying to tear down Obama is what turned AA's against them.  Now, I don't know if they'll come back if HRC is the nominee. I tend to think so and in spite of the blogs' crying that AA's will never vote for Clinton, I think it's overstated.  She may lose some but I don't think it will really affect her chances too much.

    She's getting a LOT of Reagan Democrats and Republicans (as TX and OH show) and those same people I think would be very much McCain votes come the GE if Obama is the nom.

    Reagan Democrats (none / 0) (#20)
    by txchicanoforhillary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:27:53 PM EST
    are indeed voting for HRC. I live in Texas and Dems that voted for Reagan voted for her in our primary.  I think that the analysis that AR is a state we need to win is right on as well...and Clinton has a far better chance than Mr. Obama.  Also, New Mexico and Nevada will also go heavily for Senator Clinton.  We still don't know the popular vote results for NV.  NC is probably not going Dem, IMO.  Senator Dole is from there and there is a heavy military presence in NC.  I think that is more wishful thinking than anything.  Places like Virginia and Missouri are more in play than either of the Carolinas.

    Parent
    To look at SC more objectively (none / 0) (#21)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:45:29 PM EST
    I think that the denigration of the Clintons there -- it angered me immensely, too, and for the sake of us all, but that is not my point here -- masked what may have been a more important factor there.

    And it may be an important factor in coming Southern states, so:  What I saw, reading local media there and thus interviews with voters there, went back to what used to be discussed before all the intervening crap and/or reluctance by the media to talk more about what AAs thought about their opportunities in this country before.

    That is, a lot of AAs initially did not think that an AA could win in this country.  Then came Iowa -- and that had immense impact on the AAs in SC.  And I think it would have had sufficient impact in itself for Obama, so it is so sad that the race had to devolve into desperation on the part of some of his supporters who turned away from  transcending race and made it all about race.

    And as Obama's run of wins continued, that factor continued in his favor.  So what may be worth watching from this is whether, with his recent losses, AAs continue to hold.  I think they may.

    (Btw, lest it be misconstrued, I am saying that  racial pride or racial connection with a candidate or whatever is not the same at all as racism -- just as pride or connection with a candidate because of other shared experience is not wrongly motivated at all.  A candidate who is a veteran may draw some veterans' votes because they are proud of his and their service, because they connect with him, because they consider him most likely to relate to veterans' issues, whatever.)

    Parent

    That was (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by rooge04 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:53:02 PM EST
    exactly what bothered me so much about it. He didn't need to do any of that. And it bothers me to no end that now every state HRC wins has the taint of "They were too racist to vote for Obama" since his campaign made the narrative "He's the best, unless you're a racist"  I think they've taken it a bit too far and now it's having the opposite effect.  Drawing people away from him rather than towards.

    Parent
    WTF? (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:00:47 PM EST
    I missed this quote coming out of the Obama campaign:

    "He's the best, unless you're a racist"

    Do you have a link to the quote?  Or did you just make it up?

    Parent

    Let's not (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by rooge04 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    play games here. I distinctly said it was the current narrative. And it most certainly is. Have you seen Daily Obama? They'll tell you. It's exactly the impression they are giving off to HRC supporters, especially in light of her wins in OH and TX. Immediately, I heard that those two states were obviously racists.  Get real. It's what his supporters and surrogates put out there every single time she beats him.

    Parent
    Current Narrative? (1.00 / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:26:20 PM EST
    So why the quotes?  You are the one playing games.  I

    And since you have ratcheted down your specific "quote" to mere "impression" status, some HRC supporters are guilty of the same kind of sentiment.

    Parent

    Doesn't help just to deny it (none / 0) (#43)
    by RalphB on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:32:56 PM EST
    The DailyObama was going on and on about Ohio and TX not voting for Obama, so they must be racist.

    Thank goodness, TL has not dug that hole for itself.


    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:46:00 PM EST
    You must have either missed those comments here, or they ring so true to you that you just nodded in agreement.

    Glad that we have adjusted your claim to the mere ranting of partisan supporters. Given that we have two candidates that are out of the "mainstream" given their race and gender, it is not surprising that an ugly side of America is rearing its head.

    No point in contributing to that uglyness, is there now?

    Parent

    No, squeaky (none / 0) (#80)
    by auntmo on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:56:30 PM EST
    What is not  surprising  is  that    Jesse Jackson  Jr  and other   Obama  campaign  staffers  HELPED  that  ugly  side of  America  rear  its  ugly  head.      They  GAINED  South  Carolina  in  doing so ,  and  did it on purpose,   but   in  the long  run,  cost  their own  campaign  some  credibility.  

    Your  posts   are  a  bit  disingenuous  in   avoiding    recognition  of  that   fact,  and you  clearly  show  a pattern  of  same.  

    Due  respect.

    Parent

    Pattern Of The Same? (none / 0) (#123)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:57:27 PM EST
    What are you saying? I have been quite evenhanded, imo. Since there are only a few BHO supporters here, you may have missed my calling them out for stupid nonsense.

    Not sure what you think I am avoiding. What I do believe I am avoiding is jumping on a mudslinging bandwagon because others are doing it.

    Parent

    And conversely, let me tell you (none / 0) (#41)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:27:07 PM EST
    how it's working in Wisconsin, because of the reverse -- because it voted for Obama.  So there is much patting-on-backs because that means we're not racist here (except, of course, for those of us who voted for Clinton).

    So, discussion over.  We don't have racism in Wisconsin.  Just because many whites still never have even SEEN an AA where they live -- as Obama did not get to most of the state, either . . . and just because more than 95% of AAs in the entire state live in only one city, and most of them in only two areas that have the lowest education and most problematic schools, the worst income levels, the worst housing, etc., etc. . . . nope, we don't have racism in Wisconsin.

    Therefore, there goes hope of getting the rest of the state to stop beating up on the city where the AAs live, to start funding our schools and our jobs programs and our social services and more.

    This is what comes from redefining the Obama campaign as about race and from redefining voters as not racist as long as they vote once every four years or so for someone they see as -- and this is the discourse here in some cases -- more white than AA.  Oh, it's all getting so complicated and with such awful ramifications here that I'll stop now.

    Except to say that this isn't even getting into what the heck was in the minds of the massive GOP crossover voters here.  I have to hear them daily, I don't want to get into their mindset now, because I don't want them getting into my head now.

    Parent

    Careful Now (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:14:46 PM EST
    This is what comes from redefining the Obama campaign as about race

    So what are the implications for redefining HRC's campaign as about gender, something you have done?

    I guess I do not see how you can honestly reduce all (or even most) Obama supporters to people voting race, and the problems that engenders, while implying that all or most HRC supporters cannot be reduced voting gender.

    Seems to me that the bulk of supporters on both sides are voting because they believe that their candidate is best qualified to be POTUS regardless of what they look like.

    Parent

    Exactly. I agree (none / 0) (#93)
    by rooge04 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:19:21 PM EST
    with you. Neither of their campaigns can be reduced to race or gender. That's my entire point in this whole thing.  It's specifically what Obama supporters have made OH and TX about. Race. White, working class people there (and I'm already hearing it about PA) are racist...and that's why they vote Clinton. Perhaps they also think she's just the best person for the job? No, that would be too simple. That's my entire point in this. A vote for HRC is reduced to a racist vote. While a vote for Obama is reduced to a progressive one.  It's unfair and obviously not correct.  So thank you...you've actually made my point for me.

    Parent
    But (none / 0) (#122)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:47:02 PM EST
    You seem to miss the fact that it is a two sided coin. That is your prerogative.

    People are also being called sexist because they are not voting for HRC.  It has been said they those people have turned their backs on women's rights, and similar nonsense.

    Parent

    I agree entirely (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:11:03 PM EST
    with your analysis here.  Anybody who would get huffy about African-Americans voting en masse for the very first AA presidential candidate with a chance to win is just full of it.

    Sliming the Clintons as racists is utterly despicable, whether the Obama camp needed to do so to win or not.  This is the epitome, as far as I'm concerned, of the "politics of personal destruction" cliche, and it's by far the worst I've ever seen from a Democratic candidate in my lifetime.

    That said, I think AA voters have shown themselves over the years to be by far the smartest, savviest voting bloc in the country and I think -- I hope -- that their well-founded fondness for all things Clinton has not been wiped out for all time by Obama's tactics.


    Parent

    Voting Race? (none / 0) (#66)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:20:40 PM EST
    Guaranteed that if the person getting the chance to be the first AA president was Clarence Thomas, or even Condoleezza Rice, you would not see a similar voting pattern.

    BHO supporters are voting for him because they feel he would be the best person to represent them, the color of his skin is a secondary matter.

    Parent

    If that's the case, squeaky, (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by auntmo on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:59:15 PM EST
    then   Obama  campaign  staffers  never  needed  to  trash  the Clintons  as   "racists."  

    Since  they  did,   they  must  have   felt  there  was  a  NEED  to   attract  Black  voters  in  false  anger.  

    Parent

    Both Sides (none / 0) (#121)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:42:28 PM EST
    Are working it, IMO. Shills will do whatever it takes to get the voters attention. It's their job.

    That being said, CT or CR are not going to get many Democratic votes from the AA's no matter what kind of crap the shills pull.

    I do think, that because the two candidates are on equal footing, that many do vote along the lines of identity politics. But the fact that they are both high quality candidates is. imo, the main reason that they are getting their respective votes.

    Parent

    Uh, omit "objectively" -- not (none / 0) (#26)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    where my post went, in the end.  Analysis is always somewhat subjective.  What I'm trying to say is that there may have been other and more important racialised factors before and beyond the denigration into attacks of racism.

    Parent
    I don't think (none / 0) (#34)
    by ding7777 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:09:04 PM EST
    Hillary will lose the AA vote (to McCain), but definately, the AA GOTV motivation will gone

    Parent
    I tend (none / 0) (#37)
    by rooge04 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:13:52 PM EST
    to agree with you on this. She certainly won't lose it to McCain. But she certainly will not be getting them to come out for her unless Obama is on the ticket.

    I agree with BTD that he will be on the ticket. And I think as VP

    Parent

    If that happens it will be interesting to see (none / 0) (#51)
    by JJE on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:51:09 PM EST
    How all the HRC supporters who have been ripping him so viciously will walk back from their vitriol.  HRC herself will have some trouble spinning away her CinC threshold nonsense.

    Parent
    Oh please he is not being viciously ripped (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:06:56 PM EST
    by most Clinton supporters. Criticized yes, viciously ripped, no. To say he isn't ready to be CiC is not a vicious rip. Obama supporters have been ripped and ridiculed, yes. I'll grant you that. But Obama himself, no.

    Parent
    Nonsense (none / 0) (#73)
    by JJE on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:43:09 PM EST
    Explicitly endorsing McCain as more qualified to be CinC.  Pushing Rezko nonstop even though there is no evidence Obama did anything wrong.  Calling his supporters a bunch of latte-sipping Prius-driving liberals.  Even practiced equivocators like the Clintons will difficulty spinning away from that garbage.

    Parent
    rezko (none / 0) (#76)
    by Janet on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:47:18 PM EST
    Please read no-quarter today on Larry's post on Rezko and Obama. You may change your mind.

    http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/03/09/obamas-prime-slime-advisers/

    Parent

    You're the first post I've read today... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:49:12 PM EST
    ...that mentions Rezco. Besides if it is no vicious cruelty to discuss something that is in the news then I guess we better all shut up about the economy and Iraq too.

    Parent
    Unfortunately for your argument (none / 0) (#83)
    by JJE on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:00:42 PM EST
    The campaign didn't start today, nor is it defined only by the posts that you happen to read.

    Parent
    Yeah but since... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:21:34 PM EST
    ...I have been spending entirely too much time on this blog lately, I think I'm a pretty good barometer. Look, the bottom line is that you can believe what you want to believe, but I don't understand what is such a huge problem that there exists one small corner of the Democratic blogosphere that is somewhat critical of Obama.

    And no, I would not post here if I thought it was a vicious Obama bashing site. Now you and I may differ on what we consider a bash, I suppose. But the moderators here don't really allow vicious attacks on Democratic candidates.