Friday Evening Open Thread

I'm back from court and an exhausting four hour hearing. Now I'm off to the grocery store.

You've filled up three open threads today, what's one more till I get back? Big Tent says he's out for the day as well.

When I return I'll probably be more interested in Kathleen Soliah's release from prison (I agree with her lawyer that "For someone who was not a danger or a threat to society, it was six years too long") and the release of Willie Green after serving 25 years for a murder he didn't commit than in politics, but don't let that stop the rest of you.

As well as the BOP's denial of a furlough so a meth inmate with a year left on his sentence can see his 10 year old before she dies of cancer.

Got more to say? All topics open here.

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    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:36:46 PM EST
    will NOT be attending Easter Services.

    Obama's allies are hoping the focus will stay off of Wright this Easter Sunday when the Democratic frontrunner skips services at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago and heads on vacation.

    That's too bad. (4.55 / 9) (#6)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:40:10 PM EST
    I was wondering how Wright was gonna tie the Clintons to
    Jesus' crucifixion.

    Joan (none / 0) (#19)
    by sas on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:03:02 PM EST
    that was the funniest thing
    I have read this whole election season any blog.

    "I was wondering how Wright was gonna tie the Clintons to
    Jesus' crucifixion. "

    Goodness knows, Hillary has been blamed for everything else.


    you do know that (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by cpinva on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:20:00 PM EST
    both clintons are members of the sanhedrin, don't you? :)

    He already blamed (none / 0) (#62)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:04:51 PM EST
    Natalie Holloway for getting herself murdered by being too loose.

    Because that's what happens when women go out on their own, dontcha know.


    Seriously? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:05:32 PM EST
    Yep. (none / 0) (#69)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:07:35 PM EST
    OK, I googled it (none / 0) (#73)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:10:44 PM EST
    I'm trying to give this guy the benefit of the doubt and not hold his statements against Sen. Obama, and I agree that crimes against black women are not reported on like those of (young) white women. But that comment was just disgusting.

    It's also true (none / 0) (#106)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:00:59 PM EST
    that crimes against "pretty" women are reported more than those against "plain" women.

    Everything in our media is about what caters to the American Idol crowd.

    (with caveat, I love American Idol AND Dancin with the Stars).


    true (none / 0) (#194)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:26:57 PM EST
    attractive women get more coverage when they are raped and murdered...but it's kind of hard to blame them. (Not that you were at all. I am talking about Wright here)  The media chooses who they are going to cover, and it's not even enough to be pretty anymore; there has to be some other kind of hook to draw people in.

    I think it's fairly disgusting to blame a woman for being raped and killed, as if she asked for it because she had a drink.  Of course, no one is really focussing on those types of comments or what was said about Clinton as the podium was humped or the G D America crap.  It was all about race.


    I thought he was a Christian. (none / 0) (#24)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:07:11 PM EST
    Speaking of Barack's Christianity (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:17:31 PM EST
    Does anyone else find it hard to believe that he wasn't in church the Sunday after 9/11?  Why hasn't anyone asked him why - on a day when even atheists considered going to church - he sat it out?

    There is something terribly disingenuous about him.  


    He said he was home (none / 0) (#129)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:24:20 PM EST
    with their newborn daughter.

    home with newborn? (none / 0) (#138)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:31:42 PM EST
    Someone check the math.  Is this like when he was fighting a heated US Senate campaign that was actually a state campaign?

    Thank you from the bottom of my (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:06:31 PM EST
    heart, as this unanswered question has been bothering me all day.  

    Holy crap (none / 0) (#188)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:46 PM EST
    apparently, Meeks has some interesting wright-like comments of his own on tape: LINK

    Compares Daley to slavemasters over aa's, among others.

    Good God.  What is going on here?


    That is odd to see (none / 0) (#205)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:43:06 PM EST
    I mentioned on another thread that it wouldn't even matter if they had tapes of Obama in his church.  That tapes of other sermons would be used to push a message.  Question... do you think churches are going to stop selling their cds?

    From the third article, (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by tigercourse on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:40:42 PM EST
    "Vonda Yaeger said she has been told by officials at the prison in Yankton, S.D., that her daughter's illness is not an "extraordinary circumstance."

    If that's not an extrsordinary circumstance, I don't know what is.

    We need to get Make-a-Wish Foundation (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:13:02 PM EST
    on this, for pity's sake?  We can get all gushy about sending some poor child to Disneyland but can't let this one see her father one last time?

    I wonder if Mrs. Yaeger (none / 0) (#40)
    by standingup on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:25:04 PM EST
    has tried contacting Senator Tim Johnson or any of her elected representatives from South Dakota.  I doubt John Thune would do much to help them but Johnson should have a good sense of what it can mean to have family love and support when it is most needed.  

    I wrote a diary posting contacts with Nebraska rep (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by jerry on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:38:06 PM EST
    Glenn Sacks has details at his blog on who to call.  

    glenn sacks blog


    The "Obama Lied in His Race Speech" (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Exeter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:43:45 PM EST
    Are spreading like wildfire on youtube. They're all taking Obama's statement that he had indeed heard similar Wright conroversial comments while in church spliced with interviews from last Friday night that he had NEVER heard similar comments and would have quit the church, got up and walked out, ect if he had had heard Wright say such things.  There must be a smoking gun out there for him to take this kind of seemingly avoidable hit.

    I suggested this on last night's thread. Yea! (none / 0) (#21)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:05:39 PM EST
    But then, someone said it was already out there so I guess I was a little late to the party.  Oh well.

    now don't get in the liquor and (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:55:27 PM EST
    be sure to feed the dog. smile!

    Hey (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by sas on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:06:38 PM EST
    Olberman's on and I'm not watching.

    Truly liberating!

    We've been liberated quite a while now and (none / 0) (#27)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:10:50 PM EST
    I have to tell you that it feels really, really good.  Daddy has the tee-vee on basketball instead.

    sadly I was. "cat fight" (none / 0) (#30)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:12:58 PM EST
    yup. Richardson did his very best to adhere to the Obama rules of smearing subtly. He was doing, kinda ok until he said cat fight. channel changed.

    I can't believe how far our programs have gone down hill. food channel's pretty stress free though.


    What? He said what? "Catfight"? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:17:36 PM EST
    Tell more, I missed this.  (Or tell me if it was in an earlier thread and I missed it among the hundreds of comments there.)  Was this in response to Obama talking about "claws coming out" again or something?  

    Richardson was talking about the bickering (none / 0) (#39)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:22:00 PM EST
    mostly trying to subtly lay it on the Clinton camp, then barely mentions it's from both sides and continued on about it and that's when "catfight" came out. I was already starting to tune out, but that perked up my ears!

    I'm so disgusted with MSNBC, it's my own darn fault for tuning in to hear what he had to say.


    Worst. Campaigner. Ever. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:27:35 PM EST
    He said that? God help us if he in the VP candidate. He has an incredible tin ear.

    yup. I'm going to check youtube (none / 0) (#47)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:37:29 PM EST
    later tonight. I'm sure it will be up there, lol!~

    I was a tad surprised he said it. Like I wrote, I was already going into tune out mode, and then i was "what?!" Just flipped the channel so TV is still intact. Keith was trying to get him to say she should concede and he was trying to agree without being obvious. I think he was sent out on a mission to rescue Obama and pressure Hillary to get out. Earlier today on one of the 'news' programs they spoke about the Hispanic SD's and that maybe he would be able to sway them to Obama. I think they said there are 40 of them.


    found the video (none / 0) (#97)
    by GDKitty on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:44:00 PM EST
    at MSNBC (not sure how long the link will last, though):
    Keith and Bill and "catfighting"

    Love how KO thanked Richardson for finally "wrestling that beast to the ground" at the end.  I know he was referring to the decision to endorse, but it seemed a bit too clever by half.  Maybe I'm just angry, though.  


    Richardson makeover? (none / 0) (#102)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:54:15 PM EST
    Did he get a makeover?  Sorry, but in the debates I thought he was a loser.  

    Thanks! I just contributed another $100 (none / 0) (#117)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:14:45 PM EST
    to Clinton -- as I do every time the media push one of my hot buttons.  And "catfighting" is a big one with me.

    As for Richardson, what a disloyal lowlife -- and inarticulate, too.  He just can't figure out what made him do it.  Uh huh.  We can, Bill.  Yes, we can.  


    OY! I'd be broke if I donated everytime! (5.00 / 0) (#164)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:53:03 PM EST
    although have have been motivated to donate often, lol!~ I've reached my limit this month, but with April just around the corner, new limit to go with the next rounds of 'hot buttons'.

    Me too! (none / 0) (#148)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:38:23 PM EST
    I give her $100 worth of love whenever they start with the "she should drop out" BS.

    Ha! Yeh, the combo of KO and the other (none / 0) (#154)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:41:22 PM EST
    hypocrite, the one who's a super-delegate who said super-delegates should vote as their states do -- but just did the opposite -- was just more than me and my wallet could resist.  A twofer smackdown, two creeps for the price of one.  Wheeeeee.

    After all, it is a good investment (none / 0) (#163)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:51:00 PM EST
    in the only one running who truly understands and can get this economy out of the mess it's in.

    The Clinton years were the best years of my life financially. I don't doubt she can do even better because I think she's less susceptible to criticism than Bill was. He wanted everyone to like him. She wants to do what's right in the long term regardless of whether it makes her popular in the short term.

    Somebody posted this last night on Salon TT, and I love it:

    The GOP does not play well with others. Hillary's seen that up close and personal, and harbors no illusions about their bona fides. She knows how to work with them on some things, but on others she knows that if she reaches across the aisle, her hand will have to come back full of testicles, and she will then have their attention.

    I agree... (none / 0) (#167)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:54:53 PM EST
    that is why I support her.  She knows that there are no miracles and she is in it for the long haul.  Obama is the same way, if elected he will have to keep the "people liking him" story.  

    Wasn't he the one who came to her (none / 0) (#41)
    by Teresa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:25:38 PM EST
    defense in the debate they kind of ganged up on her in? I'm disappointed in him. Besides, I thought Obama said SD's should vote the way the people did.

    Apparently, according to Richardson, (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:45:11 PM EST
    he missed at question directed at him in one of the debates and Obama whispered: Katrina, instead of "throwing me under the bus."  

    Also, according to Huff Post, Richardson is ticked that a Clinton minimized Richardson's endorsement by saying it was just an attempt to woo Latino voters.  


    I am so tired of that damn bus. (none / 0) (#115)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:11:21 PM EST
    I agree (none / 0) (#81)
    by stopcomplainingandact on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:19:38 PM EST
    SDs should vote the way of the popular vote!

    Ugggh (none / 0) (#44)
    by GDKitty on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:29:19 PM EST
    Well, I'm sure KO quickly admonished him for that sexist remark /sarcasm

    You know, as much as I've ignored rumours that Edwards would endorse Hillary, I confess to being very disappointed when he didn't do that last night on Jay Leno.  It woulda been cool :(


    I used to watch MSNBC (none / 0) (#171)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:03:20 PM EST
    all the time.  I enjoyed all of their programming (except the lock-up series...awful).  Now I'm living in a parallel universe where Joe Scarborough and Pat Buchanan are the only ones on the network that don't make me want to hurl a glass through the screen.

    Did anyone catch Morning Joe this morning?  They showed the picture of Bill Clinton shaking Wright's hand at the prayer breakfast and Mika actually said that anyone invited to the White House is fully vetted so they have knowledge of all of their beliefs.  Oh. My. God.  I almost threw my coffee cup at the screen, but I was afraid it would hit Joe.  


    Watch it with the volume off (none / 0) (#32)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:13:15 PM EST
    His rant on Clinton was funny to watch.

    I ran to the TV to turn it off (none / 0) (#70)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:08:47 PM EST
    It is a real change for me - leaving Hardball on and turning off Olbermann.  Not sure why I even had Hardball on, actually,

    Jehmu Greene targeted personally (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by TalkRight on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:46:22 PM EST
    Jehmu Greene targeted in hateful manner

    Not sure if any one of you watched this yesterday on Fox.. but it being repeated now..

    Jehmu Greene who is an African American was telling Bill O'Reilly, telling enough is enough..  

    But it is not happening only on Kos it is all over internet in other blog sites..  its what I would say Liberal Elitist at its worst.. I have been personally targeted and called a xxx.... just like other Hillary's supporter are being targeted in a vicious manner, It is bad that Obama's campaign whose motto is hope.. behind the scene his supporters are behaving in the most hateful manner They are forgetting that they do need us if he becomes a nominee

    Quite a read from the "Rock the Voter" (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:43:03 PM EST
    goddess who did so much for the Dems -- and now is getting the standard treatment from DKosers.  Read the rest at The Greene Room

    Btw, scroll down the page for a terrific tribute to Ann Richards done by Texas Women for Clinton, too.


    Still Welcoming AmericaBlog Refugees...? (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Ted P on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:54:17 PM EST
    I did a Google search on "AmericaBlog" "embarrassing" and "Obama" and was directed to a site featuring a piece titled "Hundreds Abandon Americablog As Obama Bias Becomes Hourly Bash-Hillary Frenzy."  And it recommended this site as an alternative.  Well, here I am!  

    Welcome. Pull up a chair (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:57:47 PM EST
    Not much talking going on at TL tonight, however.

    there are both (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:05:29 PM EST
    Obama and Clinton commenters here.

    The Obama commenters (for the most part) are better then on other sites.. they have good insite.

    I can say the same for Clinton commenters.

    The exchanges sometimes get heated, but Jeralyn and BTD keep everyone in line.


    Agreed.... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:09:33 PM EST
    ...trolls of any stripe don't last long here.

    What is a troll? (none / 0) (#90)
    by stopcomplainingandact on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:33:41 PM EST
    You are new to blogging, aren't you. (none / 0) (#103)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:56:18 PM EST
    The simplest answer is an intentionally disruptive poster. Although there are many categories and subcategories of trolls.

    Just reading the comments so far... (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Ted P on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:06:27 PM EST
    ...this place seems like a better fit for me.  You folks seem like a friendly bunch, so that's good!

    It IS nicer here... (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Lou Grinzo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:24:44 PM EST
    ...plus we're all so devastatingly attractive.

    Made me look (none / 0) (#145)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:37:21 PM EST
    Good information. I dropped it in my favorites.  Thanks

    Devastatingly attractive... (none / 0) (#152)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:40:28 PM EST
    I know I am. I rook mahvelous dahling.

    Welcome! (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:24:54 PM EST
    Just remember to obey the site rules.  The admins won't always warn you if you stray although other commenters may.

    Oh, and feel free to ignore comments and replies that are inflammatory.  We have a lot of new folks here and a few of them are, mmmm, less than worthy.


    Welcome! (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:03:57 PM EST
    This (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by sas on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:16:19 PM EST
    is one of the few sane sites.

    As an Americablog (5.00 / 1) (#221)
    by txchicanoforhillary on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:39:17 PM EST
    boycotter, I am glad you found this place.  I came to TL a lot during the Valerie Plame mess.  I came here to see what was going on one night because I got tired of the Obamabots @ HuffObamaPost, DailyOboz, et al.  I left Americablog over a year ago.  He used to be a republican. I'm gay also, like the author of Americablog, but he wrote some comments that offended me greatly.  He actually responded to me, very angrily, when all I did was point out a flaw in one of his arguments.  

    I don't need a Johnny-come-lately "progressive" trying to lecture me on what I have been my whole life...proudly.  Like ol' Barack's church says, "Unashamedly gay and unapolegetically Chicano"

    Welcome to TL.  Great site with great peeps.


    Crystal Meth (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by facta non verba on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:00:47 PM EST
    A topic near and dear to my heart. While the meth crisis has certainly been reported on, it remains a rather under-reported one. Being gay, I have seen run it through the gay community here in San Francisco like a tornado through Kansas. The Castro Street SF Muni stop is now full of public service ads that feature a gay man with the copy running, "I lost it all to Meth" or "I lost me to Meth. I know more than one who has. Two who actually died from it. I have a close friend who had to drag his partner to Berne, Switzerland to escape. It is a pernicious drug and while I am drug tolerant, it escapes me how to tackle it apart from the obvious which remains a political impossibility. In the SF gay community, we believe that it is on the down swing but it is hard to really tell. The on-line sex sites are full of ads of men who "PNP" party and play.

    I saw that in Oregon, 50% of all residential breaking and entry cases are tied to meth. I understand that its use is not restricted to gay men, apparently truck drivers have a fondness. Think of that the next time a big rig passes you screaming its wheels.

    The problem is actually quite simple to tackle but for the drug companies that make a killing on over the counter medication that contain ephedrine. Ephedrine requires a very specialized chemical lab and intense heat to make. There are but nine plants in the world that make it. But its trade is unregulated. And as long as that continues to be the case, we will have tragedies like the one Jeralyn points to that inspired this comment.

    Meth is a scourge (none / 0) (#78)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:18:35 PM EST
    not a lot of people realize that the Hell's Angels used to control 00% of the meth trade, and a lot of the early race wars in CA were over the control of meth.  Now, the Aryan Brotherhood seems to be maintaining the trade.  With regulation of OTC meds in the US, it's easier to get the key ingredient for meth in Mexico (as you say, ephedrine is easy to come by).  They are putting meth in everything, from pot to heroin, to make it more addictive.  It is, of course, a billion dollar industry.  The white supremacist groups don't like losing their money and power...and suddenly, we have a lot of folks yelling about "illegals" and keeping our borders safe.  Funny how that dovetails, huh?

    Here's an interesting fact that most people don't know about: a good many of the folks "guarding" our borders to keep out Mexicans are open members of white supremacist groups.


    The Article that Jeralyn pointed to (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by facta non verba on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:50:13 PM EST
    Please take a moment and read this:

    LINCOLN, Neb., March 21 (UPI) -- Federal prison officials have denied a dying Nebraska girl's wish for a visit with her father.

    Jayci Yaeger, 10, has brain cancer, KETV in Omaha reports.

    "She wants her dad," her mother, Vonda Yaeger, said. "She goes to her room crying because she wants her dad."

    Vonda Yaeger said she has been told by officials at the prison in Yankton, S.D., that her daughter's illness is not an "extraordinary circumstance."

    Jason Yaeger has been imprisoned for almost five years on a methamphetamine conviction. He is scheduled to be released next year.

    U.S. Bureau of Prisons policy allows furloughs because of family troubles, with wardens deciding when a request is justified and can be granted safely.

    "We've never asked them to release him early -- never asked them to change anything," Vonda Yaeger said. "We've asked them to just give him some time to be here."

    She said she is especially frustrated that her husband is scheduled to be transferred to a halfway house in Omaha in August. That would make visits with Jayci easy, but she said her daughter may not live that long.

    Jeralyn, can one write the BOP and let them know how inhuman this is? What exactly would quality as "extraordinary circumstance"? Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It's an outrage.


    that is what they do (none / 0) (#211)
    by confloyd on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:02:10 PM EST
    I used to work at the texas dept of criminal justice in the infirmary. I once saw a dying young man of 18 with aids want to see mom for the last time to tell her he was sorry for what he put her though. the warden said no, so then asked if he could talk to her by phone the warden said no. it was very sad. he died alone without getting what he had to say off his chest. Prison is an awful place, i worked there 3 years and I could not stand it, so I left and now am gainfully employed in a free world hospital!

    I'm so baffled (none / 0) (#122)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:19:10 PM EST
    by the resurgence of meth.  I was in college during the drug-soaked late '60s, and although people took all kinds of mushrooms and other kinds of stuff, the one thing everybody knew not to go anywhere near was meth.

    It's not just gay guys and truck drivers, either.  It's I think a bigger problem in rural areas than anywhere else.  I live in the country myself and love it, but I wouldn't have wanted to be a teen or young adult out here miles and miles from anywhere under any circumstances.


    Meth is a huge problem (none / 0) (#186)
    by caseyOR on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:19:47 PM EST
    in Oregon. It knows no social or economic boundaries. Truck drivers, soccer moms, gay men, it's everywhere. A big problem here in Oregon is the theft of metal. Meth addicts are ripping off all the metal they can find and selling it for scrap. Construction sites are big targets. They rip gutters and downspouts off houses. Somebody even climbed up on the I-5 bridge that runs between Portland and Vancouver, WA and tried to steal metal. Addicts are raiding cemeteries to steal metal headstones. They did quite a number on the pioneer cemetery here in Portland.

    In Oregon you cannot buy any product that contains ephedrine unless you have a prescription. That has slowed the growth of local meth labs a bit, but stuff just pours over the Mexican border.


    My understanding is that (none / 0) (#216)
    by facta non verba on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:14:12 PM EST
    Oregon is the state facing the greatest meth crisis. There was a PBS Frontline programme on it. Here's the link:


    This is a personal issue for me. I have seen it first hand just gut SF gay community. I have had to take in a friend who suddenly found himself homeless after abusing meth. I have lost two friends, including a pretty close, die of over doses. I have had one guy high on meth break into my home in the Castro to take a shower. I have another friend who "slammed" (injected) for 20 years. He remains a friend but he is hard to deal with. He is effectively bi-polar or paranoid schizophrenic. Functional but volatile.

    There are some great programmes here in SF. One website is http://www.tweaker.org. They are a harm reduction programme.  Another programme that works is called PROP. It is run out of the Magnet gay men's health clinic on whose board I use to sit. PROP is a 12 week programme that pays $10 a visit if they pass a urine test. They have a 73% success rate in keeping guys off meth for a year.


    Oregon does have (none / 0) (#228)
    by caseyOR on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:25:46 AM EST
    a big problem. Jails are full of meth-addled offenders. Everyone knows treatment is key to solving this problem, but there isn't the money. Here in Multnomah County(where Portland is) the county is trying to find the money to open an empty jail for treatment beds. But money woes and, frankly, some turf wars between the county chair and the sheriff are getting in the way.

     Oregon is not a rich state, and we have a really stupid tax system. In addition, over the years we have passed initiatives (yes, the dreaded ballot initiative) that mandate some pretty severe prison terms for a variety of crimes. We now have the dubious honor of spending more on prisons than we do on education.

    My nephew, who is schizophrenic, started using meth. His weight dropped from 200 lbs. to 125. Things got so bad he was committed to the state hospital for psychiatric treatment. It is very hard to get someone committed, as it should be, but thank god he was because he got cleaned up. His life is still hard, but he is off meth and doing better. We were lucky. So many others are not.


    Your take? (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by nellre on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:11:18 PM EST
    Obama Aide: Bill Clinton Like McCarthy

    "McPeak learned of the remarks while at an Obama rally in Salem, Ore. Afterward, he called Clinton's statement horrible and compared it to McCarthy, the Republican senator from Wisconsin who held hearings on suspected Communist sympathizers in the 1950s."


    What ever did Bill say?

    '"I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interest of this country," Clinton said. "And people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."'

    Attempting to get the campaign on to the issue facing all America, not just the race and gender stuff.

    Well in a world where olberman..... (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:14:54 PM EST
    ...fancies himself Murrow, are you surprised that they have cast Bill Clinton as McCarthy? I'm not.

    From the land of Joe McCarthy (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:20:09 PM EST
    and knowing him and his work quite well, I can tell you that the retired general is full of crap.  I can recommend a few books for him to find out what McCarthyism was really about.

    Actually, it was closer to what the retired general is trying to do here, but we will not be fooled.


    I must be really naive. When I read (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Teresa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:33:49 PM EST
    that quote earlier today, I was assuming he referred to the race between Hillary and Obama and just to politics in general.

    No matter what either Clinton says, it gets twisted as somehow a slam on Obama.


    Fackcheck... what was President Clinton saying.. (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by TalkRight on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:26:05 PM EST
    Fackcheck.. what was President Clinton Saying..

    Actually, as is indicated by the quote itself, President Clinton was talking about the need to talk about issues, rather than falsely questioning any candidate's patriotism.

    He was lamenting that these kind of distractions "always seems to intrude" on political campaigns. This is consistent with his criticism of the "politics of personal destruction," which dates back 16 years.

    This is FREAKIN' ridiculous (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:00:36 PM EST
    Nobody in the Clinton camp including the former President can utter a word without having to fact check these days.



    Oh, for God's sake (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:29:45 PM EST
    Uh, there will be one Democrat and one Republican in the election, and I know it's been a while since I got out of school, but I do use math every single day, and I think - I think - one plus one equals - wait for it - two, as in: two people who love this country.

    These Obama people can just bite me, that's how sick I am of this stupidity.


    Hey, Nellre, for a first comment here (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:09:06 PM EST
    that was a bombshell -- where did you see it before bringing it here?  Just on the AP newsbudget on some media site or on some other blog, where we can go join you there to counter this bad reporting?

    Is that paranoid or what? (none / 0) (#126)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:21:29 PM EST
    They're saying Bill Clinton was "obviously" saying only Hillary and McCain are patriotic.

    Man, do people need to get a grip.  This is so bizarre.


    I think I've figured out Obama's plan . . . (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:19:52 PM EST
    He's making it so his opponents can never speak. He's playing the fear card!!

    His surrogates go out and feed the MSM and public (not so)subliminal reactions and they react! Once the reaction happens, they then can spend a 24hr news cycle on it throwing all the blame towards Clinton while Obama 'rises above' it all. We're being PC Gagged.


    That sure is (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:23:03 PM EST
    the way it seems.  I've always thought the sneering about "political correctness" from the right-wing was pretty obtuse, but this sure is PC totally out of control on the part of the media and blogs. The Obama forces are having huge success using it as a weapon to try to shut the Clintons up.

    Bill Richardson... I was about to endorse Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by TalkRight on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:11:35 PM EST
    But then I waited...  "I resent the fact" that Clinton camp is spreading idea that he is only influential with Hispanics and westerners.

    "You know, that's typical of some of his advisers that kind of turned me off..

    So what was his point?? He did not endorsed Clinton because he disliked her advisers.. what do we say to people who dislike Obama's spiritual adviser.

    Today he says I think my endorsement will matter... but all along he has been saying .. it would not matter!!!

    He wants the voters to decide .. but wants this election race to end!!

    Another nasty politician who knifed his fellow friend in the back like Kennedy, Kerry...

    Bill Richardson... JUST WORDS like Barrack Obam (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by TalkRight on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:21:09 PM EST
    Richardson's Just WOrds Moment:

    Richardson said last month that his superdelegate votes "should reflect the vote of my state, it should represent the vote of my constituency." Clinton won New Mexico.

    Loyal...guys...RIGHT (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:31:36 PM EST
     He milked the Clinton administration for everything he could get
    out of it and now jumps to OB

    Wow, what a hypocrite -- he said this (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:35:14 PM EST
    again on KO tonight; see video link upthread.  

    Hey, KO?  A real journalist -- say, Ed Murrow -- would have done his homework on these "just words" by Richardson, or at least would have caught them when he said them again tonight, and a real journalist would have confronted him with his hypocrisy.  

    But then, unwillingness to confront hypocrisy is why KO had all the mirrors in his dressing room removed.

    (KO reeeeally preened, though, when Richardson complimented KO on his "eloquence."  Bleccchhh.)


    Wasn't that nauseating? (none / 0) (#168)
    by GDKitty on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:55:57 PM EST
    Could you believe their mock "sadness" at how Clinton's campaign has behaved? Spare me!

    Is it possible to be a "concern troll" on the teevee?


    Evidently it is. nt (none / 0) (#177)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:08:35 PM EST
    Link (none / 0) (#131)
    by TalkRight on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:24:53 PM EST
    The comments over there are funny (none / 0) (#206)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:44:17 PM EST
    and very one sided, which wasn't so a couple weeks ago. very interesting.

    why was this guy (none / 0) (#124)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:20:50 PM EST
     even considered?  

    Ehh (none / 0) (#134)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:29:29 PM EST
    People make decisions for all kinds of reasons. Maybe he doesn't like Clinton for whatever reason, but didn't want to say it and so tried to blame her advisors.

    It's pretty bad though if he's going against what he said about how superdelegates should vote.


    Richardson sold out for 30 pieces of silver !! (none / 0) (#219)
    by TalkRight on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:36:31 PM EST
    "Mr. Richardson's endorsement came right around the anniversary of the day when Judas sold out for 30 pieces of silver, so I think the timing is appropriate, if ironic," Mr. Carville said, referring to Holy Week.

    How true !!!


    I have been busy lately, but... (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Oje on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:32:09 PM EST
    Apparently, Obama gave a speech on race and racism in America, the mere existence of his words opened a "dialogue" that ended the long nightmare of our nation's history of white male supremacy, Hispanics and women found all this democracy too taxing on them so they ceded their voting rights to Bill Richardson  and a commercial actress, and the post-racial new world order makes the white boys feel so good inside that they decided to call an end to our democratic process.

    What else happened this week?

    Dunno... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:35:49 PM EST
    but they think it's somehow in the bag and she should just step aside for the coronation.  

    I have been checking for news here... (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Oje on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:54:50 PM EST
    I did notice that when the Clinton supporters stopped writing at dailykos, the Obama supporters spread like fruitflies after a deep freeze below the 35th parallel.

    It seems that, when an Obama supporter falls into a deeply angst-ridden post about the latest insufferable injustice in the race for the Democratic nomination - but there is no Clinton supporter near enough to hear - then s/he does not make a sound.

    Have they moved on yet? I see MyDD is having problems now...


    'At's 'bout it. So, work gonna slow down (none / 0) (#147)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:37:33 PM EST
    for ya soon, and how's the weather by ya?

    Great weather... (none / 0) (#151)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:39:59 PM EST
    Planted a whole bunch of gorgeous stuff in my garden and released lady bugs to get the bugs on my roses.  So cool, you get them in a plastic container, water the roses and release at night.  Hope it works.  

    Oh, rub it in. We just started to see (none / 0) (#158)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:44:48 PM EST
    dead brown matted former lawns emerge in patches this week from under the snow, half of it was gone . . . and we just got more than a foot today, on the first day of so-called spring.  I just was able to get out walking last week for the first time in months, with so many lousy neighbors who never once cleared their icy, snowy walks . . . and now I have to wait weeks again for all of this to melt.

    But gardener that I am, I do keep telling myself that the meltoff from this record snowy year is gonna make for happy bulbs getting lots of moisture!


    Sorry.... (none / 0) (#162)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:50:36 PM EST
    did not mean to rub it in. We could get an earthquake any minute...so I never gloat.  

    I'm between the two of you (none / 0) (#172)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:04:28 PM EST
    In Denver. I have mini daffodils blooming! and other bulbs starting to show life. Tomorrow I cut off last year's perennials to make way for new growth, but this is our snowiest month so it won't be real spring until late April and I can't plant annuals until mid-May.

    Sorry (none / 0) (#174)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:06:57 PM EST
    have to add... we have several types of daffodils blooming, tulips, grape hyacinth, creeping geraniums, pansies, azaleas, ranunculus, the roses, trumpet vines and lemon trees are budding... the Robins are back, so are the North American Goldfinch and the hummingbirds are busy.

    But yeah, we have that earthquake thing....


    70 degrees here tomorrow (none / 0) (#178)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:09:14 PM EST
    in Sunny Atlanta.  Dogwoods a'bloomin' and azaleas peeking out.

    Don't hate us too bad--it'll be 300 by May.


    That's what keeps me going now -- knowing (none / 0) (#203)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:38:25 PM EST
    that I'll still be gardening when so much of the country has to head indoors.  A relative in St. Louis starts gardening about now but says it's over by mid-June, just when we really start to enjoy fab weather for the rest of summer, a real summer lived outdoors with three seasons of flowers and fun.  And I got a firepit for Christmas (markdown sale time) to keep me out there well into the fall.  So I can hardly wait to haul it out . . . as soon as the foot of snow melts.  (This time of year, it will do so soon -- in the 40s next week!)

    no snow here, but 40's next week also! (none / 0) (#207)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:52:24 PM EST
    and i thought i saw a 50. we've had a mild winter and some nice days lately, but can't wait for consistent spring weather. Y'all have motivated me to start my spring kitchen/fire escape garden tomorrow :) have everything I need and now the motivation! YAY!

    Urgency... (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:34:13 PM EST
    Why all this urgency after the speech for the coronation?  Did I miss something?  It's beyond words the shallowness of this candidate, BHO.  I keep trying to get over my partisanship but it's getting harder every day.  Maybe they will have to set up reeducation camps.  

    I think it's to validate their opinion... (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:41:49 PM EST
    ...of the speech. I think also, that's why Richardson was instructed to specifically mention it as his reason for endorsing.

    Just read the speech 3x s (none / 0) (#150)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:39:09 PM EST
    I read it... (none / 0) (#156)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:42:48 PM EST
    and it's just the O formula.  I don't get tingles.  If people are having a conversation about race now...well, they are a bit late.  Some of us have been doing it for the last 40 years.  We have been working in fields where these issues are dealt with every day.  

    After Bush, is everyone so impressed with people who can string three sentences without stumbling or saying something from the dark ages?  


    The O formula. (none / 0) (#173)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:06:10 PM EST
    Yup. That's exactly what it was. I had the speech outlined the night before he gave it. Very predictable.  {sigh}

    One concern is people getting bored with him by Nov. Hope he's got some more Magic in his bag O'tricks.


    I get the impression (none / 0) (#181)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:10:57 PM EST
    that some people are actually trying to understand what is  happening.  How do we, oh how do we get them to just beeeliieeeve.

    Two comments: (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by zyx on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:18:11 PM EST
    1.  I see Bill Clinton is getting roasted for saying in North Carolina that if Hillary and John McCain are running against each other that will be a fine matchup of Americans who love their country.  Obama people say he's implying that Obama doesn't.  I think they are being dumb--Bill isn't like that (I don't think).  Obama talks frequently like he and McCain are the only two kids on the block.  I think that is the frame of reference.  But that is my take.

    2.  One the grown-up news (PBS) Margaret Warner has been in Kenya all week.  Today she reported that she was in Obama's home village.  Yes, they follow Obama and a bunch of the people are big, big fans.  BUT she did say that a lot of women (of a certain age, like over 40) say that they are very pro-Hillary, and very proud of HER, and supportive.  That is way interesting--though, IMO, not really too surprising.

    Jeralyn, I'm so sorry about the meth guy (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by goldberry on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:32:08 PM EST
    what purpose is served by making him stay in jail while his daughter is sick?  If he's a user, he's just as much a victim of his own crime.  If he's a dealer, well that's much more serious but we are supposed to be humane.  
    Very sad.  Why are Americans so punitively harsh on these kinds of crimes where a person who destroys the life savings and retirement account of an Enron employee, for example, suffers not much at all?

    I haven't been by Kos lately ... (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:35:20 PM EST
    but has anyone over there noted that if Wright sermons were Kos Dairies they would be deleted, and would likely result in the user being banned?

    Frustrated... (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by kredwyn on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:17:39 PM EST
    Started working on the novel again (another book in a month challenge). But every time I look at the book or fiddle with the character development stuff, it's like my brain goes blank.

    Have been sitting here staring at the same chapter on character arcs for the past few hours.


    Anyone watch Real Time tonight? (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:37:55 PM EST

    Yep... (none / 0) (#223)
    by Exeter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:42:05 PM EST
    I just watched it

    More Obama TV (none / 0) (#225)
    by dissenter on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:11:06 AM EST
    I can't stand that show any longer. We went to the movies tonight and it was liberating. For anyone interested, The Bank Job is a great flick

    Comments closing (5.00 / 1) (#227)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:13:57 AM EST
    We're at 200. Not a bad thread, compared to yesterday's. Thanks for making my life easier!

    On John and Abigail Adams (5.00 / 1) (#229)
    by facta non verba on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 02:16:51 AM EST
    Since you like my earlier post, here's a few words on John & Abigail.

    He was nine years older than Abigail Smith. He came from a reputable family, she came from Puritan and English royalty, the Quincys of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Of their courtship, not much is known. John failed to pen in his dairy a word the year of their courtship. Of their marriage, their letters tell a romance any human being would be lucky to share. It is hard to imagine one without the other. Abigail soothed the tempestuous temperament of John and in she he found solace. A love that holds no bounds, an understanding of the plight of the other and their own collective duty and individual responsibility. She was simply his "Miss Adorable" and he her "My Dearest Friend."  This is from a letter from Abigail to John dated October 16th 1774:

    I dare not express to you at 300 hundred miles distance how ardently I long for your return. I have some very miserly Wishes; and cannot consent to your spending one hour in Town till at least I have had you 12.

    One wonders why she would want her husband a full half-day before allowing him out of the house. The romps they must have had. The banter back and forth. So much for the theory of Puritans being uptight. John is 40 at this point and Abigail 31 and they had been married 11 years. Their letters are simply electric. Bombastic John is a but a kitten in the hands of Abigail. I have been known to cry reading them and steal from them liberally. Beyond the romance, there is hard politics, the harsh realities of war and human life in the late 18th century. There is advice and encouragement flowing both ways and an equality in a partnership. Abigail's feminist qualities shone brightest in her famous "remember the ladies" letter dated March 31st, 1776:

    I long to hear that you have declared an independency -- and by the way in the new Code of Laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make. I desire you would Remember the Ladies, and be more generous and favourable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the Husbands. Remember all Men would be tyrants if they could. If perticuliar care and attention is not paid to the Ladies we are determined to foment a Rebelion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any Laws in which we have no voice, or Representation.

    That your Sex are Naturally Tyrannical is a Truth so thoroughly established as to admit of no dispute, but such of you as wish to be happy willingly give up the harsh title of Master for the more tender and endearing one of Friend. Why then, not put it out of the power of the vicious and the Lawless to use us with cruelty and indignity with impunity. Men of Sense in all Ages abhor those customs which treat us only as the vassals of your Sex. Regard us then as Beings placed by providence under your protection and in immitation of the Supreme Being make use of that power only for our happiness.

    He was more prolific than she but he was often lonely and bored in Philadelphia and more so later when abroad while she raised children, ran the farm and made the business decisions during his long absences. She was no less eloquent. And as First Lady, she set the model for an activist role in politics earning her the title of "Mrs. President."

    While theirs was wedded bliss, theirs was not an easy life. They knew the sorrow of losing a child in infancy. Between 1774 when John left New England for the first time to go to the Continental Congress in the "country" of Pennsylvania and 1789, they rarely saw each other. Hence the frequency and length of their letters. They are available online: http://www.masshist.org/digitaladams/aea/letter/. Their separation is our joy.

    JMM's "Step 8: Acceptance" (none / 0) (#1)
    by rilkefan on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:27:42 PM EST
    Via email he explains he's referring to Kuebler-Ross, not Al-Anon's step 6.  I replied that K-R described five stages.  Anyway that shows the post in question was just obnoxious, not awful.

    JMM insisting (none / 0) (#63)
    by rilkefan on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:05:03 PM EST
    it's eight steps.  I sent him wikipedia links and more.  He says I'm "angry" - guess my reply will convince him I'm in denial.

    Okay fess up! (none / 0) (#74)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:13:09 PM EST
    Are you an Angry Librul?
    Or an Angry Black Person?
    Do you have Clinton Derangement Syndrome?
    Bush Derangement Syndrome?

    Or maybe

    Hope!Unity!Change! Syndrome! (Perhaps Unity!Hope!Change! for the UHC! Syndrome.)

    I wonder what Republicans do these days?  Are they angry or just resigned to letting "history judge" the Bush administration?  Heck, they are probably passing the hat to try to bribe History!


    I (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by sas on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:21:57 PM EST
    have BITS - Bush inspired Tourette Syndrome.

    That's where you occasionally scream obscenities at the TV when Bush is on.

    I also have OITS - Olberman Inspired Tourette Syndrome

    *ITS - Tweety Insriped Tourette Syndrome


    I'm not the only one in my family who has it either.


    not me (none / 0) (#82)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:19:45 PM EST
    just a "typical white woman" here.

    JMM? (none / 0) (#80)
    by kredwyn on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:19:01 PM EST
    And then he wonders (none / 0) (#111)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:05:42 PM EST
    why he's not hearing from us...

    Last time I emailed I disagreed with something on the site, he told me I was "just whining."



    We have no chaperone right now (none / 0) (#9)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:47:56 PM EST

    But they will get it later (none / 0) (#10)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:54:01 PM EST
    When the Mother comes home from shopping.

    Oooohhhh (none / 0) (#17)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:01:54 PM EST
    I am telling...

    I'm just starting to clean the thread (none / 0) (#224)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:47:48 PM EST
    of the race-baiting comments.

    McCain/Clinton 08 (none / 0) (#12)
    by Polkan on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:57:17 PM EST
    I'm hearing more and more talk about the McCain/Clinton ticket. I think it started with WaPo article a long time ago. Kerry asked McCain to be on the ticket, as we all remember.

    What kind of "change we can believe in" would that mean?

    What are the chances?

    Hopefully, zero (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:59:19 PM EST
    The idea of Sen. Clinton running with a Republican doesn't appeal to anyone I know.

    Ah, no chance of McCain/Clinton, I would think (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by caseyOR on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:59:42 PM EST
    zilch, zero, nada (none / 0) (#16)
    by jes on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:00:42 PM EST
    It is just another way to insult Hillary.

    Exactly... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:02:23 PM EST
    Yeah it's like Obama being (none / 0) (#86)
    by stopcomplainingandact on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:29:44 PM EST
    Clinton's VP when she is in second place.  Smart but not truthful.

    Good lord - can you see a Republican convention (none / 0) (#67)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:06:49 PM EST
    nominate Hillary Clinton for VP? I know it is hard enough to imagine them nominating MCain for Pres.  But heads would literally explode.

    Yabbut (none / 0) (#77)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:17:13 PM EST
    Think of all the energy we could generate as the Mighty Wurlitzer goes from Hillary being a socialist  to being a worthy candidate.

    I think HRC as VP would sink the ticket.  The GOP would probably be terrified that McCain would die and they'd get Madame President.  It would give Bloomberg an opening though.


    lol!~ that would be worth popping up some corn for (none / 0) (#100)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:46:08 PM EST
    How about Obama/McCain? (none / 0) (#182)
    by MichaelGale on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:12:19 PM EST
    or McCain/Obama?

    Don't forget Tina Fey on SNL (none / 0) (#15)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:59:51 PM EST
    this Saturday Night. It is a repeat of the February show for those who missed the original airing. Maybe Hillary will catch it while on Easter vacation.

    I will definitely watch. (none / 0) (#20)
    by sas on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:04:21 PM EST
    SNL (none / 0) (#46)
    by OxyCon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:36:21 PM EST
    I hope Tina Fey and Tracy Morgan sing "Ebony and Ivory".

    But I liked it! (none / 0) (#23)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:06:50 PM EST
    I guess I'll get deleted too.

    While you do that I will (none / 0) (#28)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:11:47 PM EST
    surf.  MYDD... let's see, Charts of OH and PN  where people who support Clinton are Hillary-billies, and Ed-necks and Obama supporters are Obama-crats.  Lots of good articles over at RCP.  Black Agenda Report has some interesting items.  hmmm..... Let's see what KO is doing... trashing Clinton.  

    I really (none / 0) (#133)
    by sas on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:26:40 PM EST
    enjoyed not watching K
    O this evening.

    And I plan to enjoy not watching it from now on.


    There are a lot of shows I enjoy (none / 0) (#153)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:40:38 PM EST
    not watching any more.

    I found my people (none / 0) (#210)
    by vigkat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:00:54 PM EST
    I feel the same.

    I think those labels (none / 0) (#179)
    by MichaelGale on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:10:05 PM EST
    are somewhat demeaning

    Not sure some Pennsylvanians will take to being called Hillary-billies, Ed-Necks and Hoosierdoms and then have descriptions such as low income, low education attached to them.


    Yes, when I saw them (none / 0) (#183)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:13:21 PM EST
    at MYDD I was offended.  I don't imagine anyone likes the terminology.  I don't have an account over there or I would mention it to them.

    Just checked tonight's listings. (none / 0) (#33)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:13:50 PM EST
    Did anyone see John Adams on HBO? Episode one is on now but I missed the first 45 mins. It will be on again tomorrow late afternoon. I just wanted to check to see if a good production of the history. I am a Revolutionary War nut. Started when I saw Disney's Johnny Trumane's Son's of Liberty movie. I think Mom would approve. Or there is Bridget Jones diary for the umteeth time on Bravo. Although, I love Colin Furth.

    No one could fault you (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:31:44 PM EST
    for picking Colin Firth over Paul Giamatti.  You can only love history so much.

    I saw the first two eps (none / 0) (#36)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:19:19 PM EST
    But I'm not as educated about the Revolutionary war as I ought to be, so I don't know about the accuracy. I've enjoyed it so far. Laura Linney is fabulous, as always, and it makes me want to read the book of their letters that was published some years ago.

    I just saw the first episode... (none / 0) (#42)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:27:32 PM EST
    ..it was quite good but I thought that the Thomas Jefferson characterization was a bit odd, as was George Washington. It was definitely a John Adams hero journey.

    the movie is called Adams, lol (none / 0) (#175)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:07:05 PM EST
    not Jefferson and Washington.

    Adams was called by Jefferson, the "Colussus of Independence", that is the slant the movie takes.  Adams was the mover and shaker that pushed the cont. cong. to act.

    i thought both episodes were good..  didn't like the idea of Mrs. Adams giving her whole family smallpox as I can't find a single source that supports that notion.  But that was my main gripe.


    I'm a historian, and I really like the show- (none / 0) (#120)
    by kenosharick on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:17:20 PM EST
    not my area, but accuracy is pretty good. I have spotted a few factual errors- minor though.

    I'm a history buff (none / 0) (#48)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:38:33 PM EST
    when it comes to the Am Revolution. My white ancestors were involved in the war. They were from Boston. Attended church with many of the Sons of Liberty.

    It followed History pretty good.


    Caught the end of it (none / 0) (#61)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:03:02 PM EST
    It was suspenseful when they voted. But they agreed to the Declaration of Independence. Ha. Just kidding. But at least it shows the trepidation that these men had with what they were doing. No High Fives. Then it was ok, we did it. Now what do we do next. Of course, I have to see Episode one now. Tonight was # 2.  

    Tere was some heated discussions (none / 0) (#71)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:09:06 PM EST
    and politics to get to the Declaration..... makes the Dem party nomination look tame. LOL!!

    Ha! (none / 0) (#87)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:29:55 PM EST
    Yes, they really succeeded in creating suspense, even though of course we know the ending. I was nervous there for a minute!!

    The Adams Chronicles ... (none / 0) (#200)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:33:07 PM EST
    is coming out on DVD next month.  An excellent series from the seventies about John Adams and his descendants.  It features William Daniels, who played John Adams in 1776, as John Quincy Adams.

    Well worth renting or buying.


    Good rec, thanks -- we have it taped (none / 0) (#215)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:13:43 PM EST
    as we couldn't watch last week, so this tells me to get to it fast tomorrow to be ready for Sunday.

    Btw, PoP, the last thread closed before I could thank you for the clarification of your popular-vote count source -- i.e., yourself.  What a lot of work, but what a promising bottom line you found for us.

    It would be interesting to know more as to how you came to that popular-vote count, with so many different ones out there . . . as I think, from your comments here, that you're probably a more reliable source than any of those media sources. :-)


    Well worth watching (none / 0) (#83)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:22:59 PM EST
    I am not an expert on the history, but have read a lot about the Revolution, and so far the movie is pretty accurate, with the obvious caveat of course that conversations are imagined. I think the John and Abigail interactions are drawn from their letters though, so at least the spirit of those is correct.

    I'd have to look it up, but I don't think ALL the British in the Boston Massacre were acquitted, as the movie implied.

    The 'tar and feather' scene was hard to watch, but historically accurate.  The Sons of Liberty did not mess around. I thought it was important to show that there was a lot of street violence involved in the revolution, in addition to the more high minded debate.

    It is true that Adams is the focus - maybe some day we'll get as good a portrayal of Jefferson and Washington. Jefferson was in fact very quiet-spoken in that time period.  I find his portrayal accurate to what I have read.  Adams even mentions the document that Jefferson wrote in Virginia that was the basis for what he wrote in the Declaration. The scene where he is going over the draft Declaration with Adams and Franklin was very good, and probably fairly true to life.  

    Looking forward to the rest of the episodes.


    John Adams (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by facta non verba on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:57:25 PM EST
    As a historian (though I am not a specialist on the US) and one without HBO and currently out of the country anyway I will say this the book by David McCullough is well-written. I'd also recommend any book by Joseph Ellis, especially one called Founding Brothers that has a great chapter on Adams and his relationship with Abagail. Abagail and John had quite the torrid love affair (their letters form a large part of the scholarship for the McCullough book) and theirs was also a political partnership in an age where that was still far from the norm.

    Before you all get carried away with John Adams' wonder, might I remind you that his Administration passed the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798 a series of four acts aimed at internal critics of the Administration. Think of them as a Patriot Act for their times. While Jefferson would repeal three of the Acts, one remains still on the books, the Alien Enemies Act (allows for detention or deportation of foreign nationals in times of war). Jefferson thought the Acts unconstitutional because they violated the Tenth Amendment (the states are effectively sovereign).

    The greatness of John Adams was not so much his Presidency which was bitter and difficult, two characteristics of John himself, but rather his role as the main and early advocate for independence and in his diplomatic journeys on behalf of the Continental Congress to France, Holland, Prussia and Russia. He was instrumental in securing French entry into the Revolutionary War, Dutch loans, Prussian military advisers, and Russian indifference. All would be critical to the survival of the American cause. On the home front, Abagail and John were a team in securing needed supplies and coordinating the homesteads with the war front. Adams also led the diplomatic team (or so he thought, Franklin thought otherwise) that negotiated the Peace of Paris that secured American independence and served as Ambassador to the Court of St James.

    The rift between Adams and Jefferson is well known and lasted for well over a decade. The death of Jefferson's daughter prompted a letter of sympathy from Abagail and that led to a peace, an amazing correspondence and their ever-lasting friendship. Adams died on July 4th 1826 during his son's Presidency. It is said that his last words were "But Jefferson still lives." Actually Jefferson had died earlier that same day in Virginia. The delicious ironies of history.

    They were very different men. Adams was nothing but prudent though argumentative, religious, and frugal. He left a large estate. Jefferson was more daring and more conciliatory, an atheist (though many today think him a Deist his contemporaries did not), and anything but frugal. He died in debt.

    It should also be noted that alone among the major Founding Fathers, John Adams never owned any slaves.


    Thank you, Facta! (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:37:23 PM EST
    That was an amazing, interesting, easy-to-follow history lesson.  I wish you had been my teacher in high school - maybe I would have paid a little attention.  As it stands, I can't remember a thing I was taught.  

    I watched the first two episodes On Demand tonight because I had heard good things about it.  I was not disappointed.  The writing, acting and character development were great.  I would absolutely recommend it.


    I have serveral heros. (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:21:54 PM EST
    The whole group were fantastic. That old rascal radical Sam Adams and John Hancock. What totally opposites. I like Hamilton. Brilliant and I wonder what he would say about Wall Street now. I like John Madison too. Also brilliant. You summed it all well too. Thanks.

    and now we see the dreams (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:29:00 PM EST
    of the framers coming true: Americans choosing between a black man and a woman for president!  Hahahaha!

    The series is (none / 0) (#109)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:04:43 PM EST
    base on the book by David McCullough

    Don't forget Abigail Adams (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by MichaelGale on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:29:20 PM EST
    was both a partner and adviser to Adams. Cool, calm intelligent and very informed.

    Torturing of Tories driven to Canada (none / 0) (#91)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:34:07 PM EST
    I recall reading years ago, in National Geographic, a memorable piece about towns in Canada founded by entire communities of Tories, former Americans, driven north.  Many were maimed the rest of their lives from tarring and feathering, lost all their property, and the like.  It was an important lesson to me that we are so often told only one side of the story in our history, the story of the winners -- when the other stories were of Americans, too.

    So even before the '60s, I learned that my ancestral homeland of Canada long was a refuge from American wars.


    Yes - 2 soldiers (none / 0) (#93)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:38:04 PM EST
    were found guilty and six were acquitted

    Two privates were found guilty of manslaughter and punished by branding on their thumbs.

    I'm loving John Adams (none / 0) (#45)
    by kmblue on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:33:14 PM EST
    Visited Boston for the first time last year during the baseball playoffs.
    Walked the Freedom Trail.
    Listened to our forefathers spinning in their graves over our current administration, too.

    How do you think (none / 0) (#49)
    by stopcomplainingandact on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:39:03 PM EST
    the Democrats are going to win this election?  Seems like both sides have so much passion for their candidate and distrust for the other candidate?

    Heck, you've been commenting here (none / 0) (#50)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:45:34 PM EST
    for a day now, so what do you think?

    Well, there are alot (none / 0) (#53)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:48:02 PM EST
    of IFs! Taylor Marsh has a good analysis...Link

    All of a sudden the race is thrown on its head. Right now it's still advantage Obama to be the Democratic nominee. However, Wright has damaged him in a way that the Democratic party will not recover in the general election. The YouTubes are that incendiary, which I don't need to explain to anyone. The trouble for Hillary is that all of these developments may be too late to offer a road for her to win. On the other hand, if all these developments against Obama continue to fester, Obama will not survive to be the nominee.

    A lot of ifs. Only time will tell what the outcome will be.

    Well I think (none / 0) (#54)
    by stopcomplainingandact on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:49:57 PM EST
    we will eventually get to talk about the issues. And if you look at either of our candidates policy positions they will win off merit.  

    How many Presidential elections (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:39:14 PM EST
    have you been through?

    I totally agree that candidates should debate and win or lose on the issues but that is not what usually happens, sad to say.


    Certainly Al Gore wasn't judged on issues... (none / 0) (#98)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:45:08 PM EST
    ...nor did he lose the election on issues, nor did he lose the election at all, come to think of it. But you know what's weird, as good as President Gore would have been, I shudder at the though of Vice President Lieberman.

    Liebermann is just weak. (none / 0) (#110)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:05:04 PM EST
    His ego always needs to be fed.  He could have been an acceptable VP, but he couldn't be allowed much autonomy or he'd get into trouble.  

    Lieberman was an awful VP choice. (none / 0) (#202)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:37:34 PM EST
    He's too much of a nebbish.  He's barely audible.  He comes across as very wishy-washy-whiny.  

    I see HBO is going to a special on that too (none / 0) (#184)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:14:21 PM EST
    I heard about it and I saw a preview of it. Coming in May I believe. It is about the 2000 election in Florida. Chads........

    Oh man. They better give us fair warning! (none / 0) (#189)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:21:53 PM EST
    I don't even want to see a commercial regarding the chads of 2000.

    Attacks are blazing (none / 0) (#55)
    by stopcomplainingandact on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:51:49 PM EST
    from both sides.  I just started writing in blogs.  If anyone hints that they support one candidate or the other they get blasted.  At least we are passionate about our candidates.

    Shift in (none / 0) (#60)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:01:35 PM EST
    momentum has caused a stir.

    According to MSNBC this momentum (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by kenosharick on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:26:00 PM EST
    will not matter. They spent all day declaring Hillary over. I say lets wait til the votes come in from the next few primaries.

    I spent the (none / 0) (#180)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:10:22 PM EST
    day doing the math on the popular vote.

    By my numbers ... IF she keeps the momentum....SHE CAN surpass Obams in the popular vote.

    I have a feeling that is WHY the sudden push for her to withdraw.

    According to my math on the PLEDGED delegates .. she can surpass Obama unless she get near 70% in the last 10 primaries.

    Some say less then 70%... but I think they are including the SD that have already commited.

    Anyhow, she need to sty in just to see where this leads.


    Yeah I would say (none / 0) (#58)
    by stopcomplainingandact on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:58:32 PM EST
    the Obama base is much more likely to be involved in blogs, posts and forumns.  

    Actually we do pretty good here. (none / 0) (#79)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:19:01 PM EST
    Tonight is Good Friday and the start of a holiday weekend and if you read some of the open threads today, they were pretty political. Jeralyn is out shopping and Big Tent Democrat is not around tonight so people are winding down a bit. It has been a fast and furious week. Everyone is taking a deep breath. Before the next storm.

    Certainly (none / 0) (#76)
    by tek on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:16:23 PM EST
    not original with me!

    Wow, Kathleen Soliah (none / 0) (#85)
    by herb the verb on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:27:33 PM EST
    Amazing how the time passes when you aren't in prison....

    I also hope she can live a fruitful life now (as she apparently already had while "on the run.

    It opens up the old (none / 0) (#92)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:36:46 PM EST
    Reform versus Punishment debate in he justice system.

    If the main goal of the justice system is to enable criminals to become productive, law abiding citizens - then she was already there.  A hefty suspended sentence with monitoring would have been sufficient.

    If the main goal is punishment - then there is nothing to do but lock her up.  This incurs considerable cost and takes her from tax payer to tax payer expense.


    It is my considered opinion (none / 0) (#101)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:49:19 PM EST
    people who, despite committing serious crimes, manage to delay the prosecution and do reasonably good works in the interim get a better deal than those who commit the same crime, are immed. arrested and convicted and sentenced.  Which doesn't seem fair.  

    How common is the former (none / 0) (#107)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:03:01 PM EST
    and the latter?

    Luck has some part in it, but money probably has more.


    Pretty uncommon. But its amazing (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:09:52 PM EST
    how committed people become to their local community, parent teacher assoc., scouts, you name it.

    Patricia Kerwinkle/Leslie Van Houten (none / 0) (#135)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:29:48 PM EST
    It kind of made me (none / 0) (#128)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:23:27 PM EST
    smile...just a little.  :)

    warden in SD being (none / 0) (#157)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:44:24 PM EST
    a heartless ahole?  the warden must be one of those very same aholes who voted to ban all abortions and imprison any doctor who performed an abortion including in the case of rape.  The same aholes who think that, "mothers must learn to love and nurture" even in the case of unwanted pregnancy by rape.  If Obama wanted to disenfranchise a state why not choose South Dakota?  I might have even supported that move.

    So a warden telling an 11 year old terminal cancer patient to go to hell really doesn't surprise.  Luckily karma can be a b**ch and I for one hope the warden receives his just reward.

    I laughed (none / 0) (#159)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:45:35 PM EST

    Bill Richardson (none / 0) (#204)
    by Coral Gables on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:41:37 PM EST
    I'd like to think Richardson was never seriously considered as a presidential candidate. Could you imagine us nominating someone for the highest office in the land that admittedly lied on his resume for nearly 40 years.

    Well, unlike Obama, at least (none / 0) (#208)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:52:38 PM EST
    Richardson has a long resume.

    Now, CC, play nice. You (none / 0) (#214)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:13:19 PM EST
    know he was a community organizer.  

    that includes (none / 0) (#226)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:11:30 AM EST
    some old allegations that would undoubtedly resurface.