Joe the Plumber's Story Falls Apart

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:04:25 PM EST
Tags: Plumber Joe, John McCain (all tags)

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As has been reported all day at blogs and news media sites, Joe the Plumber is not who he pretended to be. The Miami Herald has a good wrap-up.

Some of the early news:

Never served in the apprentice program or got a license, according to Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 50, in Toledo. Doesn't make anywhere near the $250,000 that would subject him to higher taxes under Obama's proposed tax plan.

Now, there's this: Tom Joseph, the business manager of the Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 50 union in Toledo, says:

Joe claimed on a social networking site to be a working union member and even used the pipefitters' insignia as a background. ''He's never been a member of the union,'' Joseph said.

More...

Turns out, Joe works for a small plumbing shop in Toledo that's on call for leaky pipes, running toilets and gas leaks; but without licensing, he's years away from owning his own business -- legally, at least.

In fact, Joseph said, Joe isn't even supposed to work as a plumber in Toledo or the surrounding suburbs because he's not licensed under any of the local codes. ''Unless he's way out in the boonies working on some farmer's leaky pipes, he's not allowed to do any plumbing,'' Joseph said.

Yesterday, Joe was being flown around the country to appear on tv shows. Today, he's got reporters camped out in his yard asking him when he's going to pay his back taxes.

The United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry (UA.org) are angry over McCain's use of Joe the Plumber. In February, it was the first international union to endorse Sen. Barack Obama. You can view their videos and endorsement letter here.

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Joe the Plumber's Story Falls Apart | 76 comments (76 topical)

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I don't understand what's newsworthy about Joe (5.00 / 3) (#3)
by jerry on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:26:05 PM EST

I know he asked an ignorant question, and I know he was used over and over in the debate.

I am not sure why that makes the investigation into his background a worthwhile endeavor.

His question in some sense was reasonable and it gave Obama a chance to explain that 95% of people would get a tax cut.

Many months ago, the Republicans went all ape over a family that needed health care and the Malkinites were all upset that the family owned an SUV (or a car like that) and got all into that families personal history and the various choices they made.

I think it's questionable examining the histories of normal citizens (and then crucify them) who are trying to participate.

So I don't like Joe, and I'm not surprised to find he's ignorant, or even misrepresents himself, but it's his question that should be examined. Not Joe.

At this point, going up to a candidate who is (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:02:14 AM EST

visiting your neighborhood and asking him a question to explain his policy or policies in front of the tv cameras means that those same reporters may decide to go see how much you owe in taxes -- just because the segment was used by a candidate.


He asked an embarassing question. (5.00 / 1) (#42)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:37:24 AM EST

I know he asked an ignorant question, and I know he was used over and over in the debate.
I am not sure why that makes the investigation into his background a worthwhile endeavor.

He asked The One an embarassing question.

He must be destroyed.


Nothing embarrassing about it (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:51:14 AM EST

Obama gave a good answer that, judging by the debate polls, a substantial majority of Americans are quite happy with.

The hardcore conservatives can either take their "oh noes!! you want to spread the wealth around!!" message all the way down into the dustbin of history, or they can adapt and figure out what the American people really want. It's amusing to watch people cheering for Reagan-era zingers that lost their punch long ago.


embarassing (5.00 / 0) (#48)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 08:01:13 AM EST

Embarassing is the only reason to dig into this guy's personal life.


Really? (5.00 / 3) (#52)
by Dave B on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 08:54:18 AM EST

You mean a guy that's put under the spotlight in front of an entire nation and held up as a shining example of how Obama is going to hurt Joe (fill in the blank), it just doesn't matter if he is not who they say he is.

Ok, I get it.


Didn't he (5.00 / 0) (#55)
by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 09:14:45 AM EST

just approach Obama to ask him how his tax program would affect him if he were to buy the company (that he works for) that brings in about $250,000/yr?

For all we know, the owner wants to sell, in this economy, and this guy was thinking he'd like to be able to get the money together somehow to buy it. Lots of people have dreams.

No reason to crucify him just because someone saw the tv reporter video shown and used it.

Whatever he posted on some forum has nothing to do with the question itself, the answers to which have brought about a real discussion of how the proposed program would work.


: It's also possible (none / 0) (#61)
by Salo on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:33:05 AM EST

that the guy has heard about how things might affect his future plans, and he's heard moans from contractors about how a tax hike would screw them up.
So in a sense he could be a perfect example of a wroking class guy who identifies with the GOP (even if he's not really done the math himself about his own interests.) and aspires to some sort of good life as a small business owner and has heard some gripes from his beer buddies about taxation levels that they contend with...and that precisely who Obama is supposed to be attracting to the party.

So now we don't like the less (5.00 / 3) (#5)
by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:28:35 PM EST

Than brillant folks? Are the "ignorant" fair game?

Count me out on this one.

Shrug (5.00 / 2) (#6)
by Steve M on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:34:01 PM EST

I don't care at all about the guy, although I have to admit it's pretty funny that someone who complained about the possibility of his taxes going up apparently doesn't pay his taxes.

The guy asked a legitimate question, even if it wasn't an actual depiction of his own circumstances, and I thought Obama answered it very well. I respect him more for being able to look someone in the eye and explain why he feels it's fair for their taxes to go up a little bit.

Didn't pay his taxes? (5.00 / 0) (#25)
by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:03:14 AM EST

Or didn't pay all of them yet? I saw it was about a $1,000+

I've owed after estimating incorrectly.


And it's in dispute (5.00 / 0) (#37)
by Cream City on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:13:22 AM EST

as I read. Sounds like you, too, would know that if it's in dispute -- and I know that it's easy for the IRS to confound all sorts of things that happen in billing in the construction trades -- but if it's in dispute, it's not paid until it's settled.


And (none / 0) (#36)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:08:55 AM EST

did you get a tax lien on your house from estimating incorrectly?


: It was property taxes, it turns out (5.00 / 0) (#54)
by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 09:09:32 AM EST

That's why the lien. And, as has been written, the amount is in dispute.

Poor Joe (5.00 / 2) (#22)
by Wile ECoyote on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 04:56:43 AM EST

he has been investigated more thoroughly than Obama. Serves him right.

And he needs to get a lock (5.00 / 0) (#27)
by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:06:58 AM EST

for his garbage can...


Hell, Joe the Plumber (5.00 / 0) (#30)
by The Realist on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:04:57 AM EST

has been vetted better than Sarah Palin.


: and (5.00 / 0) (#35)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:08:22 AM EST

he has given more press conferences to the national media.

The media are to be applauded (5.00 / 7) (#38)
by Cream City on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:19:45 AM EST

for this sudden outburst of investigative ability, after it had lain fallow for so long. Reinvigorated as they now are, I think we can look forward to finally getting answers to lots of questions that have been raised about candidates as well.

I suspect that the answers will come soon, say starting about November 5.

Hey... (5.00 / 0) (#45)
by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:47:19 AM EST

If you read the entire thread you would have seen how she/he gave a post condemning hitlers actions a 1. Dr. Molly should be banned for giving a post vehemently against the holocaust a 1, or at least explain how ripping on hitler deserves a 1.

So before I ask my government any questions (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by tootired on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:23:10 AM EST

during an Obama administration, I need to call town hall and make sure that all of my taxes are up to date, check with my kids to make sure they haven't done anything embarrassing that I don't already know about, make sure my name is spelled correctly everywhere, get my genealogy charts done, and make sure that the answer isn't being recorded in case the person answering it says something that isn't going to play well with everyone if it gets out? And I can't even ask a question if I'm a Republican?

I find it amusing (5.00 / 0) (#65)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 11:22:24 AM EST

that after the guy held a press conference for the national media and appeared on all the talk shows, people are trying to make him into some kind of martyr who only wanted to be left alone.


He held the 'press conference' (none / 0) (#70)
by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 03:00:49 PM EST

when he came out of his house the next morning to see a swarm of reporters there and he answered questions. He said he asked a question, does not have any clout, didn't understand the resulting clamoring for his words, and that he just hoped he didn't come off a fool. But he had a conservative philosophy, with which I don't agree, but this swarm of scorn is unbecoming to people who are over-defensive of Obama, who answered the question forthrightly.

kdog,
Obama came into his neighborhood; he asked a question of him right there and the tv people were shooting. I guess your advice is to never ask a question of a person running for office unless there are no tv cameras or tape recorders around. What have we come to?


Ya gotta point... (none / 0) (#76)
by kdog on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:36:21 PM EST

and I think I was misinformed...I thought the guy was posting his own stuff on youtube, went to look and couldn't find any. Maybe the media is hounding the guy, but he did go on Good Morning America and sh*t. You're asking for trouble when you do that, imo. He could have asked Obama his question and been done with it, "no comments" from there on out.

Me? I see tv cameras I walk away...no desire whatsoever to be on television..even if it means passing up the chance to ask a presidential candidate a question face to face, which would be pretty cool...except I'd wanna ask a question likely to get me strip-searched afterwards:)


:-) Actually (none / 0) (#77)
by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:15:18 PM EST

the local tv-news at the time shows him walking up to obama, in his own neighborhood, and he asks the straightforward question, which is definitely about hoping to buy the business someday which would bring in about $250,000 and how would the tax plan affect that. I noticed that he was honed in on what Obama was saying, and never looked at the cameras or for reactions around him. Very focused on the question and answer.

The video was seen by people who drew others' attention to it, someone probably uploaded it to youtube (I don't know) and McCain folks decided to us it as a real-person illustration of their campaign thrust re taxes. That was the campaign's decision. They didn't tell him that; apparently he had no idea. So the next morning he wakes up to find all these reporters outside.

I think they did call him to ask if he'd be willing to
appear with them at the Toledo campaign event a few days later though. But they didn't mention the debate.

Most of these appearances on tv that he's now been offered to talk about his experience do pay and it's hard to walk away from that. Especially when making $40k and a single father to a young boy. Right wing radio loves his philosophy of course (and what would he do w/o taxes paying for everything around us that we take for granted).

But that's a difference of philosophy thing and since Obama Team was looking for voters to explain their ideas to, Obama answers whatever is asked of them where possible under those circumstances. This was actually a good question, being asked by a lot of people, and they used his question to put a 'face' on the question. Obama's answer re spreading the wealth was of course another reason.

At this point, I'd be wary of asking any questions either, even if the candidate were in my neighborhood. That's not good for democracy though.


: That money... (none / 0) (#78)
by kdog on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:27:11 PM EST

for appearances he may or may not be getting comes at a price, andrys. Play with fire and you're gonna get burned.
If the attention is getting to Joe, I think his main beef is with McCain for using him as a prop. I agree, the personal attacks are unsavory...but he brought at least some of it on himself...I hope the appearance fees were worth it to him.

6 of ne half a dozen of the other. (none / 0) (#71)
by Salo on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 03:08:07 PM EST

The guy seems to be a bit clueless about the proposed policies, but that's supposed to be a moment when you go...

"let 's have a cup of coffee and I can give you the details instead of all the grandstanding from various groups."

Matyr, nah....not like that Armenian family from LA talking about their sister getting denied healthcare.


Joe the Plumber's story falls apart (5.00 / 2) (#66)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 11:51:57 AM EST

only if you want it to.

He never said he did any of those things. Classic strawman. He said he wants to buy the business he is now working for and that he hoped to make $250K as the owner.

Joe claimed on a social networking site to be a working union member and even used the pipefitters' insignia as a background. ''He's never been a member of the union,'' [local Plumbing union rep] Joseph said.

The only reference we have to Joe being on a "social networking site" and/or claiming such things is in a comment from the local plumbing union rep - iow, no one seems to be able to find the actual site the rep claims exists. Obviously this, or any, union rep would want to cast aspersions on a non-union worker.

Turns out, Joe works for a small plumbing shop in Toledo that's on call for leaky pipes, running toilets and gas leaks; but without licensing, he's years away from owning his own business -- legally, at least.

Pretty much exactly what Joe said.

In fact, [union rep] Joseph said, Joe isn't even supposed to work as a plumber in Toledo or the surrounding suburbs because he's not licensed under any of the local codes. ''Unless he's way out in the boonies working on some farmer's leaky pipes, he's not allowed to do any plumbing,'' Joseph said

According to state law, since he's working along side a licenced plumber, it's perfectly legal for him to wrench pipe w/o a plumber's license.

As an aside, local (to me ) Joe the Plumber has been getting dozens of phone calls, and according to last night's news, he's getting kinda sick of it...

no, them i have some (4.83 / 6) (#13)
by cpinva on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 01:23:05 AM EST

sympathy for.

So now we don't like the less
Than brillant folks? Are the "ignorant" fair game? Count me out on this one.

however, i have no use for intentionally stupid people, such as our buddy, mr. wurzelbacher, AKA "joe the plumber".

given a pretty clear and concise answer to his question, by sen. obama, he accused him (sen. obama) of

tap dancing around it

either he has absolutely no clue (hey, i'll certainly buy into that!), or he didn't get the answer he wanted. either way, he was an idiot in public. so no, i have no sympathy for him.

i might also point out that, before the tax act of 1981, the highest marginal rate, for individuals, was 70%, 39% is just a shade over 50% of that. if i made enough to be paying at the highest marginal rate, i'd be wondering where to invest all my extra money, not whining about my taxes.

the funny thing about taxes: before you owe any, you actually have to make money. poor people don't worry about such things (except for FICA), because, well, they're poor! i have a sneaking suspicion they'd be more than happy to be in a position to be griping about higher income taxes, that would mean they could actually pay their bills.

best letter in today's nyt's:

To the Editor:
Fair taxation isn't about "redistributing the wealth" -- it's about giving back to the great country that gave you the opportunity to benefit so greatly.
It's not about taking money from "Joe the Plumber." It's about making sure that "Joe's Mega-Plumbing Incorporated" gives back to the country and the people who gave him:
¶Roads and bridges for his trucks to roll on.
¶Support for research for his latest plumbing equipment.
¶Public education so he can have a well-trained work force.
¶Markets so he can raise capital.
¶Police and firefighters so his business is protected.
¶Health care so the employees who helped him build his business can stay on the job.
¶Freedom so that he can build his business creatively.
If "Joe" has been able to become wealthy because of the bounty of America, then he should pay his fair share back to America -- that is patriotic.
Daryl Altman
Lynbrook, N.Y., Oct. 16, 2008

: Thanks cpinva (none / 0) (#39)
by barryluda on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:24:45 AM EST

Love the letter. Hadn't seen it.

: So (none / 0) (#47)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:53:01 AM EST

Fair taxation isn't about "redistributing the wealth"...
So taxation for the purpose of "redistributing the wealth" is inherently unfair. Wow! Who would have thought that the letter writer was taking a shot at BHO's spread the wealth around comment.

You Know.... (4.75 / 4) (#1)
by Brillo on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:23:00 PM EST

I honestly feel sorry for the guy. I probably shouldn't, but I can't really help it.

Am I alone in this?

: Hes a liar... (5.00 / 2) (#7)
by Thanin on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:41:29 PM EST

republican shill. Dont see much of a reason to feel sorry for him.

: If he walked the walk (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by Fabian on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:06:59 AM EST

instead of just talking the talk, I would feel sorry for him.
The Bachtel story was about a real problem (access to health care) and a real person. The JoethePlumber story is about a semi-fictional person and a completely hypothetical problem. One was a tragedy and JoethePlumber is a tragicomedy.

: well (5.00 / 0) (#51)
by connecticut yankee on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 08:16:53 AM EST

He seems like a typical republican dim bulb. &