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Joe the Plumber's Story Falls Apart

As has been reported all day at blogs and news media sites, Joe the Plumber is not who he pretended to be. The Miami Herald has a good wrap-up.

Some of the early news:

Never served in the apprentice program or got a license, according to Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 50, in Toledo. Doesn't make anywhere near the $250,000 that would subject him to higher taxes under Obama's proposed tax plan.

Now, there's this: Tom Joseph, the business manager of the Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 50 union in Toledo, says:

Joe claimed on a social networking site to be a working union member and even used the pipefitters' insignia as a background. ''He's never been a member of the union,'' Joseph said.

More...

Turns out, Joe works for a small plumbing shop in Toledo that's on call for leaky pipes, running toilets and gas leaks; but without licensing, he's years away from owning his own business -- legally, at least.

In fact, Joseph said, Joe isn't even supposed to work as a plumber in Toledo or the surrounding suburbs because he's not licensed under any of the local codes. ''Unless he's way out in the boonies working on some farmer's leaky pipes, he's not allowed to do any plumbing,'' Joseph said.

Yesterday, Joe was being flown around the country to appear on tv shows. Today, he's got reporters camped out in his yard asking him when he's going to pay his back taxes.

The United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry (UA.org) are angry over McCain's use of Joe the Plumber. In February, it was the first international union to endorse Sen. Barack Obama. You can view their videos and endorsement letter here.

< Letterman Skewers McCain | Obama at Springsteen-Joel Fundraiser: Don't Get Over-Confident >
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    I don't understand what's newsworthy about Joe (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by jerry on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:26:05 PM EST
    I know he asked an ignorant question, and I know he was used over and over in the debate.

    I am not sure why that makes the investigation into his background a worthwhile endeavor.

    His question in some sense was reasonable and it gave Obama a chance to explain that 95% of people would get a tax cut.

    Many months ago, the Republicans went all ape over a family that needed health care and the Malkinites were all upset that the family owned an SUV (or a car like that) and got all into that families personal history and the various choices they made.

    I think it's questionable examining the histories of normal citizens (and then crucify them) who are trying to participate.

    So I don't like Joe, and I'm not surprised to find he's ignorant, or even misrepresents himself, but it's his question that should be examined.  Not Joe.

    At this point, going up to a candidate who is (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:02:14 AM EST
    visiting your neighborhood and asking him a question to explain his policy or policies in front of the tv cameras means that those same reporters may decide to go see how much you owe in taxes -- just because the segment was used by a candidate.

    Parent
    He asked an embarassing question. (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:37:24 AM EST
    I know he asked an ignorant question, and I know he was used over and over in the debate.
    I am not sure why that makes the investigation into his background a worthwhile endeavor.

    He asked The One an embarassing question.

    He must be destroyed.

    Parent

    Nothing embarrassing about it (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Steve M on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:51:14 AM EST
    Obama gave a good answer that, judging by the debate polls, a substantial majority of Americans are quite happy with.

    The hardcore conservatives can either take their "oh noes!! you want to spread the wealth around!!" message all the way down into the dustbin of history, or they can adapt and figure out what the American people really want.  It's amusing to watch people cheering for Reagan-era zingers that lost their punch long ago.

    Parent

    embarassing (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 08:01:13 AM EST

    Embarassing is the only reason to dig into this guy's personal life.

    Parent
    Really? (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Dave B on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 08:54:18 AM EST
    You mean a guy that's put under the spotlight in front of an entire nation and held up as a shining example of how Obama is going to hurt Joe (fill in the blank), it just doesn't matter if he is not who they say he is.

    Ok, I get it.

    Parent

    Didn't he (5.00 / 0) (#55)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 09:14:45 AM EST
    just approach Obama to ask him how his tax program would affect him if he were to buy the company (that he works for) that brings in about $250,000/yr?

    For all we know, the owner wants to sell, in this economy, and this guy was thinking he'd like to be able to get the money together somehow to buy it.  Lots of people have dreams.

      No reason to crucify him just because someone saw the tv reporter video shown and used it.

      Whatever he posted on some forum has nothing to do with the question itself, the answers to which have brought about a real discussion of how the proposed program would work.

    Parent

    It's also possible (none / 0) (#61)
    by Salo on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:33:05 AM EST
    that the guy has heard about how things might affect his future plans, and he's heard moans from contractors about how a tax hike would screw them up.

    So in a sense he could be a perfect example of a wroking class guy who identifies with the GOP (even if he's not really done the math himself about his own interests.) and aspires to some sort of good life as a small business owner and has heard some gripes from his beer buddies about taxation levels that they contend with...and that precisely who Obama is supposed to be attracting to the party.

     

    Parent

    Emergency Plumber Gold Coast (none / 0) (#80)
    by sssjohnthomous on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 02:03:37 AM EST
    Nice and informative information shared by your blog. I really appreciate it. Emergency Plumber Gold Coast

    Parent
    So now we don't like the less (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:28:35 PM EST
    Than brillant folks?  Are the "ignorant" fair game?

    Count me out on this one.  

    Shrug (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:34:01 PM EST
    I don't care at all about the guy, although I have to admit it's pretty funny that someone who complained about the possibility of his taxes going up apparently doesn't pay his taxes.

    The guy asked a legitimate question, even if it wasn't an actual depiction of his own circumstances, and I thought Obama answered it very well.  I respect him more for being able to look someone in the eye and explain why he feels it's fair for their taxes to go up a little bit.

    Didn't pay his taxes? (5.00 / 0) (#25)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:03:14 AM EST
    Or didn't pay all of them yet?  I saw it was about a $1,000+

    I've owed after estimating incorrectly.

    Parent

    And it's in dispute (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by Cream City on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:13:22 AM EST
    as I read.  Sounds like you, too, would know that if it's in dispute -- and I know that it's easy for the IRS to confound all sorts of things that happen in billing in the construction trades -- but if it's in dispute, it's not paid until it's settled.

    Parent
    And (none / 0) (#36)
    by Steve M on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:08:55 AM EST
    did you get a tax lien on your house from estimating incorrectly?

    Parent
    It was property taxes, it turns out (5.00 / 0) (#54)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 09:09:32 AM EST
    That's why the lien.  And, as has been written, the amount is in dispute.

    Parent
    Poor Joe (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 04:56:43 AM EST
    he has been investigated more thoroughly than Obama.  Serves him right.

    And he needs to get a lock (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:06:58 AM EST
    for his garbage can...

    Parent
    Hell, Joe the Plumber (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by The Realist on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:04:57 AM EST
    has been vetted better than Sarah Palin.

    Parent
    and (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by Steve M on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:08:22 AM EST
    he has given more press conferences to the national media.

    Parent
    The media are to be applauded (5.00 / 7) (#38)
    by Cream City on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:19:45 AM EST
    for this sudden outburst of investigative ability, after it had lain fallow for so long.  Reinvigorated as they now are, I think we can look forward to finally getting answers to lots of questions that have been raised about candidates as well.

    I suspect that the answers will come soon, say starting about November 5.  

    Hey... (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:47:19 AM EST
    If you read the entire thread you would have seen how she/he gave a post condemning hitlers actions a 1.  Dr. Molly should be banned for giving a post vehemently against the holocaust a 1, or at least explain how ripping on hitler deserves a 1.

    So before I ask my government any questions (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by tootired on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:23:10 AM EST
    during an Obama administration, I need to call town hall and make sure that all of my taxes are up to date, check with my kids to make sure they haven't done anything embarrassing that I don't already know about, make sure my name is spelled correctly everywhere, get my genealogy charts done, and make sure that the answer isn't being recorded in case the person answering it says something that isn't going to play well with everyone if it gets out?  And I can't even ask a question if I'm a Republican?

    I find it amusing (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by Steve M on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 11:22:24 AM EST
    that after the guy held a press conference for the national media and appeared on all the talk shows, people are trying to make him into some kind of martyr who only wanted to be left alone.

    Parent
    He held the 'press conference' (none / 0) (#70)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 03:00:49 PM EST
    when he came out of his house the next morning to see a swarm of reporters there and he answered questions.  He said he asked a question, does not have any clout, didn't understand the resulting clamoring for his words, and that he just hoped he didn't come off a fool.  But he had a conservative philosophy, with which I don't agree, but this swarm of scorn is unbecoming to people who are over-defensive of Obama, who answered the question forthrightly.

      kdog,
     Obama came into his neighborhood; he asked a question of him right there and the tv people were shooting.  I guess your advice is to never ask a question of a person running for office unless there are no tv cameras or tape recorders around.  What have we come to?  

    Parent

    Ya gotta point... (none / 0) (#76)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:36:21 PM EST
    and I think I was misinformed...I thought the guy was posting his own stuff on youtube, went to look and couldn't find any.  Maybe the media is hounding the guy, but he did go on Good Morning America and sh*t.  You're asking for trouble when you do that, imo.  He could have asked Obama his question and been done with it, "no comments" from there on out.

    Me?  I see tv cameras I walk away...no desire whatsoever to be on television..even if it means passing up the chance to ask a presidential candidate a question face to face, which would be pretty cool...except I'd wanna ask a question likely to get me strip-searched afterwards:)

    Parent

    :-) Actually (none / 0) (#77)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:15:18 PM EST
    the local tv-news at the time shows him walking up to obama, in his own neighborhood, and he asks the straightforward question, which is definitely about hoping to buy the business someday which would bring in about $250,000 and how would the tax plan affect that.  I noticed that he was honed in on what Obama was saying, and never looked at the cameras or for reactions around him.  Very focused on the question and answer.

      The video was seen by people who drew others' attention to it, someone probably uploaded it to youtube (I don't know)  and McCain folks decided to us it as a real-person illustration of their campaign thrust re taxes.  That was the campaign's decision.  They didn't tell him that; apparently he had no idea.  So the next morning he wakes up to find all these reporters outside.

      I think they did call him to ask if he'd be willing to
    appear with them at the Toledo campaign event a few days later though.  But they didn't mention the debate.

      Most of these appearances on tv that he's now been offered to talk about his experience do pay and it's hard to walk away from that.  Especially when making $40k and a single father to a young boy.   Right wing radio loves his philosophy of course (and what would he do w/o taxes paying for everything around us that we take for granted).

      But that's a difference of philosophy thing and since Obama Team was looking for voters to explain their ideas to, Obama answers whatever is asked of them where possible under those circumstances.  This was actually a good question, being asked by a lot of people, and they used his question to put a 'face' on the question.  Obama's answer re spreading the wealth was of course another reason.

      At this point, I'd be wary of asking any questions either, even if the candidate were in my neighborhood.  That's not good for democracy though.

    Parent

    That money... (none / 0) (#78)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:27:11 PM EST
    for appearances he may or may not be getting comes at a price, andrys.  Play with fire and you're gonna get burned.  

    If the attention is getting to Joe, I think his main beef is with McCain for using him as a prop.  I agree, the personal attacks are unsavory...but he brought at least some of it on himself...I hope the appearance fees were worth it to him.


    Parent

    6 of ne half a dozen of the other. (none / 0) (#71)
    by Salo on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 03:08:07 PM EST
    The guy seems to be a bit clueless about the proposed policies, but that's supposed to be a moment when you go...

    "let 's have a cup of coffee and I can give you the details instead of all the grandstanding from various groups."

    Matyr, nah....not like that Armenian family from LA talking about their sister getting denied healthcare.

    Parent

    Joe the Plumber's story falls apart (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 11:51:57 AM EST
    only if you want it to.

    1.

    Never served in the apprentice program or got a license, according to Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 50, in Toledo. Doesn't make anywhere near the $250,000 that would subject him to higher taxes under Obama's proposed tax plan.

    He never said he did any of those things. Classic strawman. He said he wants to buy the business he is now working for and that he hoped to make $250K as the owner.

    2.

    Joe claimed on a social networking site to be a working union member and even used the pipefitters' insignia as a background. ''He's never been a member of the union,'' [local Plumbing union rep] Joseph said.

    The only reference we have to Joe being on a "social networking site" and/or claiming such things is in a comment from the local plumbing union rep - iow, no one seems to be able to find the actual site the rep claims exists. Obviously this, or any, union rep would want to cast aspersions on a non-union worker.

    3.

    Turns out, Joe works for a small plumbing shop in Toledo that's on call for leaky pipes, running toilets and gas leaks; but without licensing, he's years away from owning his own business -- legally, at least.

    Pretty much exactly what Joe said.

    4.

    In fact, [union rep] Joseph said, Joe isn't even supposed to work as a plumber in Toledo or the surrounding suburbs because he's not licensed under any of the local codes. ''Unless he's way out in the boonies working on some farmer's leaky pipes, he's not allowed to do any plumbing,'' Joseph said

    According to state law, since he's working along side a licenced plumber, it's perfectly legal for him to wrench pipe w/o a plumber's license.

    As an aside, local (to me ) Joe the Plumber has been getting dozens of phone calls, and according to last night's news, he's getting kinda sick of it...

    no, them i have some (4.83 / 6) (#13)
    by cpinva on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 01:23:05 AM EST
    sympathy for.

    So now we don't like the less
    Than brillant folks?  Are the "ignorant" fair game? Count me out on this one.

    however, i have no use for intentionally stupid people, such as our buddy, mr. wurzelbacher, AKA "joe the plumber".

    given a pretty clear and concise answer to his question, by sen. obama, he accused him (sen. obama) of

    tap dancing around it
    .

    either he has absolutely no clue (hey, i'll certainly buy into that!), or he didn't get the answer he wanted. either way, he was an idiot in public. so no, i have no sympathy for him.

    i might also point out that, before the tax act of 1981, the highest marginal rate, for individuals, was 70%, 39% is just a shade over 50% of that. if i made enough to be paying at the highest marginal rate, i'd be wondering where to invest all my extra money, not whining about my taxes.

    the funny thing about taxes: before you owe any, you actually have to make money. poor people don't worry about such things (except for FICA), because, well, they're poor! i have a sneaking suspicion they'd be more than happy to be in a position to be griping about higher income taxes, that would mean they could actually pay their bills.

    best letter in today's nyt's:

    To the Editor:

    Fair taxation isn't about "redistributing the wealth" -- it's about giving back to the great country that gave you the opportunity to benefit so greatly.

    It's not about taking money from "Joe the Plumber." It's about making sure that "Joe's Mega-Plumbing Incorporated" gives back to the country and the people who gave him:

    ¶Roads and bridges for his trucks to roll on.

    ¶Support for research for his latest plumbing equipment.

    ¶Public education so he can have a well-trained work force.

    ¶Markets so he can raise capital.

    ¶Police and firefighters so his business is protected.

    ¶Health care so the employees who helped him build his business can stay on the job.

    ¶Freedom so that he can build his business creatively.

    If "Joe" has been able to become wealthy because of the bounty of America, then he should pay his fair share back to America -- that is patriotic.

    Daryl Altman

    Lynbrook, N.Y., Oct. 16, 2008



    Thanks cpinva (none / 0) (#39)
    by barryluda on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:24:45 AM EST
    Love the letter.  Hadn't seen it.

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#47)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:53:01 AM EST
    Fair taxation isn't about "redistributing the wealth"...

    So taxation for the purpose of "redistributing the wealth" is inherently unfair.  Wow! Who would have thought that the letter writer was taking a shot at BHO's spread the wealth around comment.

    Parent

    You Know.... (4.75 / 4) (#1)
    by Brillo on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:23:00 PM EST
    I honestly feel sorry for the guy.  I probably shouldn't, but I can't really help it.  

    Am I alone in this?  

    Hes a liar... (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Thanin on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:41:29 PM EST
    republican shill.  Dont see much of a reason to feel sorry for him.

    Parent
    If he walked the walk (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:06:59 AM EST
    instead of just talking the talk, I would feel sorry for him.  

    The Bachtel story was about a real problem (access to health care) and a real person.  The JoethePlumber story is about a semi-fictional person and a completely hypothetical problem.  One was a tragedy and JoethePlumber is a tragicomedy.

    Parent

    well (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by connecticut yankee on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 08:16:53 AM EST
    He seems like a typical republican dim bulb.  I don't care about him one way or the other but I find the coverage he's getting to be ridiculous.


    Parent
    You are definitely NOT alone. (2.00 / 1) (#4)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:26:20 PM EST
    I don't feel one bit sorry for the guy (4.66 / 3) (#11)
    by shoephone on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 12:16:32 AM EST
    He lied about being a union member and he is working without the proper credentials. It's not that hard to do the right thing. I have to be licensed by both the city and the state and also carry insurance and a contractor's bond.

    I happily bid "adieu" to Joe the Unlicensed Plumber.

    Actually... (none / 0) (#20)
    by Y Knot on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 03:43:13 AM EST
    It's "Sam" the Unlicensed Plumber.  Joe is his middle name.

    At least, that's what I read.

    (and even it's not true, I'm going to keep believing it.  It's a harmless misconception and makes the story that much funnier.)

    Parent

    Someone said (none / 0) (#26)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:05:52 AM EST
    that the employee doesn't have to have a license, but the owner of the company must, in that city.  I have NO idea, just saying that might be so.

    Parent
    this incorrect. (none / 0) (#32)
    by The Realist on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:21:58 AM EST
    here are the licensing requirements (none / 0) (#33)
    by The Realist on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 06:33:57 AM EST
    for individuals.

    The Ohio Dept. Of commerce:

    LICENSE QUALIFICATION PROCESS
    The Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board (O.C.I.L.B.), Department of Commerce, Division of Industrial Compliance, issues state commercial licenses to the following contractors: electrical, HVAC, hydronics, plumbing, and refrigeration. To receive a state license, an applicant must meet the following requirements: 1) be at least 18 years of age; 2) be a United States citizen or a legal alien-must provide proof of being a legal alien; 3) either have been a tradesperson in the type of licensed trade for which the application is filed for not less than five years immediately prior to the date the application is filed, currently be a registered engineer in this state with three years of business experience in the construction industry in the trade for which the engineer is applying to take the examination, or have other experience acceptable to the appropriate section of the board; 4) not have been convicted of or plead guilty to a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude or of any felony; 5) pass the examination in the trade; 6) carry minimum $500,000 contractor liability coverage; 7) pay the applicable fees.

    Parent

    requirements for individuals (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:44:36 AM EST

    That do not apply to helpers.

    issues state commercial licenses to the following contractors

    Those that just work for contractors are not contractors.

    Parent

    That's what was said ... (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 08:11:16 AM EST
    that the person working for the owner/contractor doesn't have to be licensed.

      However, I think he referred to himself as a contractor at one point.

      Here, that can be someone who's freelancing, but I have worked for others as a contractor (freelancer signing a contract) but am not a contractor in the sense that word is usually used  :-)

      Ok - it's the person who signs the contract for a job, if we're talking loosely!  The one who contracts for a job.  In the case of a plumbing company, it would normally be the owner or other mgmt.

      ?

    Parent

    Licensed and bonded. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:42:27 AM EST
    I prefer that to the alternative.  

    Parent
    Sheeze, this poor guy (4.50 / 2) (#2)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:25:50 PM EST
    Sounds like he may have to move, (Kos published his address), and he may lose his job too.  I bet this is the last time he ever speaks with a politician!  

    More.  

    Good... (3.25 / 4) (#8)
    by Thanin on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:43:13 PM EST
    next time a republican campaign comes calling to set up some BS talking point, maybe people will say no.

    Parent
    That's absolutely ridiculous (5.00 / 8) (#12)
    by ks on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 12:37:45 AM EST
    Good!?  Publishing the guy's home address is a low and crappy thing to do.  Period.  That you are also supporting it as an intimidation tactic to warn any similar future "Joes" is sad endorsement of thuggery. There is no evidence  that the guy is or was a "GOP plant"  What, they knew that Obama would come to his neighborhood and take questions from his neighbors?  Also, iirc, he never said he made 250K.  he said he was thinking about buying a business that brought in 250-280K.  

    It is amazing that so-called "progressives" are engaging in a smear campaign against this guy to cover for Obama's boneheaded remark about "distributing the wealth" which runied his  otherwise very good respone to the guy's question.

    Parent

    Sometimes our fellow progressives (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by BrassTacks on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 02:02:14 AM EST
    Are not very nice people.  Kos is full of them.  That's why I don't go there.  I don't associate with people who wish others ill.  Never have.  

    Parent
    That's why I'm here (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 02:40:17 AM EST
    ... because the tendency has always been more human.

    Parent
    Nice doesnt win elections... (1.50 / 2) (#19)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 03:25:32 AM EST
    as Bill Clinton said, politics is a contact sport.

    Parent
    If Rotten does win elections (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 04:59:25 AM EST
    then I can't be feeling happy about it.  Means/Ends thing.  I wonder sometimes about just how superior my preferred candidates and Dem philosophies are since, as I see with too many who claim to be religious, people are just easily corrupted but almost never see it, and I can't trust my chosen ones will do any better if that's how they get in.

      The total 'siding' I see and venom toward the other side has produced a lot of b&w postings that hadn't seemed that way in the past, but I think now that this was only my own biased view at the time.

     

    Parent

    As Ive said elsewhere... (1.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:26:11 AM EST
    if it had taken calling hitler a child molester to keep him from taking power, so be it.

    Parent
    McCain isn't Hitler. (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Salo on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:25:04 AM EST
    You are debasing yourself. Niether is the guy who asked the question about taxes. Also Hitler was molesting his niece.  She committed suicide because of it.

    So it would have been a legit critique oddly enough.

    However what Hitler did was investigate and intimidate his lumpen-prole critics and then he began to  kill them later on once people understood that he could get away with the intimidation and investigations...you see where that is heading.

    Parent

    I never said... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 04:30:33 PM EST
    mccain was hitler.  My point was that I would have done anything to keep hitler out of office, so being against ends/means out of hand is a foolish position.

    Parent
    Dr. Molly... (5.00 / 0) (#34)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:01:22 AM EST
    are you capable of defending your 1s?  Or do you just acknowledge that you cant?

    Parent
    Actually I thought (5.00 / 0) (#59)
    by Salo on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:26:35 AM EST
    the Hitler reference was gratutous. Godwin's and all that.  

    I see the media hoopla around this guy as pointless. The investigations into his background absurdly misplaced.  Reminds me of what the press did to Gore in a sense.

    Parent

    Do you defend yours? (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by patriotgames on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 11:10:42 AM EST
    Pot => Kettle

    Parent
    Point out any of my 1s... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 04:27:34 PM EST
    and I'll gladly defend them.

    Parent
    2s are just as bad as 1s (none / 0) (#75)
    by patriotgames on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:00:04 PM EST
    So... (2.00 / 0) (#79)
    by Thanin on Sat Oct 18, 2008 at 12:48:40 AM EST
    expressing disagreement with a post is bad?  Sorry but 1s are calling other posters trolls, 2s are disagreeing with their position.

    Parent
    bad guys win elections (none / 0) (#63)
    by patriotgames on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 11:09:04 AM EST
    means you have bad guys in office.

    Parent
    Do you think... (2.00 / 0) (#73)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 04:28:45 PM EST
    Bill Clinton ran a sunshine, candyland campaign?  Fact is every campaign runs negative ads.

    Parent
    Chill out... (3.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 01:38:05 AM EST
    First, I didnt publish his address.

    Second, wouldn't I have published it.

    Third, there is a possible silver lining to the situation and thats what Im addressing.

    Parent

    Heh, Second, I Wouldnt have published it. (1.00 / 0) (#18)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 03:23:48 AM EST
    The reason people were unchilled was (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 04:54:55 AM EST
    that you said 'good' to a report that he would have to move because his address was given out.  I know, momentary reactions and all, but this campaign has gotten awful.

      He did illustrate the $250,000 situation better than I've seen it in that if he WERE to buy a company that could produce $250,000 how is he affected, and Obama answered.

      And then I read in other blog comments elsewhere that people are saying he claimed to be making $250,000/yr which isn't what I heard.  But the idea was starting a new company that would make that much.  I saw a discussion that for a new company starting out, with job creation credits taken, the taxes wouldn't be that high.

    Parent

    Considering... (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 05:17:53 AM EST
    all the stupid things hes said to the media about being pro Iraq war, a war where America has murdered 100,000+ woman and children, I have zero sympathy for him.

    Parent
    Obama's answer (4.00 / 3) (#10)
    by vml68 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:58:49 PM EST
    I am not happy about Obama's share the wealth answer. I pay a fair amount in taxes already and if I want to share anymore wealth then I will donate to charity or some cause I deem worthy. I don't need Obama to make that decision for me. Judging from his taxes he is not very keen on sharing his wealth. I donate more to charity than he does on half the income.
    I am also sick of hearing him say that if I decide to have an abortion I have to consult with my family, pastor, counselor. Why don't I just involve the whole neighborhood or my company in the decision making process!

    Don't we already have a progressive tax? (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by andrys on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 02:48:21 AM EST
    Well, yes, in effect, though mild.  But it's mitigated by the fact that the super-rich can use so many loopholes that many millionaires don't pay a cent from all that they make while most of us pay a very 'good' percentage of our pay.

      I agree with the 'She can consult with her pastor' bit about the very personal decision.

      I do think that those who do all that they can, work a lot, and are not able to make large incomes should not have to give a much larger percentage of their pay to taxes because they can't make the kind of deductions those with fancier incomes can.  

       And I agree that if tax cuts are given they should be given to those who most need them (if working and contributing) while those creating jobs for others will continue to get decent tax credits for that.

    Parent

    I still (none / 0) (#9)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:52:03 PM EST
    have to believe that he was some sort of plant who wasn't properly vetted.  The film of him at an Obama rally was located all too easily and McCain leads with this guy. Then there was McCain's Obama eloquence remarks and Joe's assertion that Obama could really tap dance.

    It reminds me of the tactic used by McCain's economics guru Phil Gramm.  Almost every time I heard Gramm make a speech that included an anti-tax diatribe he mentioned a small businessman name Donnie something and how he worked so hard and (gasp) had to pay taxes.

    Through the looking glass (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Coral on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 09:06:40 AM EST
    with Joe the Plumber...who argues against a minimal tax increase on the wealthiest.

    But it turns out, he isn't a licensed plumber, doesn't earn enough to pay the tax increase he is complaining about, and that he would probably qualify for a tax DECREASE under Obama.

    There is something Orwellian about the way the McCain campaign has tried to use this guy as a poster-boy for their anti-tax measure.

    The whole thing has a "What's the Matter with Kansas?" smell to it.

    Parent

    There's something sad about a (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by Salo on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:35:09 AM EST
    working class guy like that who identifies more with people outside his economic class than with his own.   But that is exactly who Obama must convince to vote for him.

    Parent
    Plant? (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by CHDmom on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:24:38 AM EST
    He did NOT go to an Obama rally. Obama went to HIS neighborhood. I am sure the MCain camp just knew Obama was going to go to this neighborhood and answer questions from the people that lived there and hurried up and planted this guy. Because they just knew IF Joe asked Obama this question Obama would say he belives in spreading the wealth. Seriously? Just Wow.
     It makes me very sad to see people here think it is perfectly fine to try and destroy a person just because he asked a question that Obama answerred in a way that could be used against him. I thought people here were better than that, but things sure have changed, and not for the better.

    Parent
    I think private citizens are getting the message. (5.00 / 0) (#60)
    by Salo on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 10:28:44 AM EST
    STFU in general.  Same as 2000-2006.

    Parent
    Joe the Plumber - Who cares? (none / 0) (#67)
    by vj on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 12:17:49 PM EST


    It gets worse. (none / 0) (#68)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 01:57:19 PM EST
    Extensive DNA analysis has determined that Joe the Plumber is Trig Palin's birthmother.

    However, this may not be completely true as it came from a web site.  

    Moral of the story for me.... (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 02:06:24 PM EST
    Don't try to be famous, and keep your mug off youtube unless you wanna be famous, with all of the pitfalls.

    BTW...Warhol's "15 minutes" prophecy sure came true didn't?