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Tom Tancredo in the Green Room

I got to meet Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo tonight. We had our makeup done together. He was on CNN and I was on after him on MSNBC.

We chatted very amiably for over a half hour. I told him I thought he looked very good (posture and clothes) in the Republican debates, and although I've never agreed with anything he's ever said, I think it's pretty cool he's taken his quest for the Republican nomination as far as he has.

I did try to ask him some serious questions. Does he read blogs? Never. His campaign had a blogger who was terrific but he went back to college. He gets news clips with articles about himself every day. He knows bloggers write negative things about him and he has no interest in reading them.

Does he have a favorite for the Republican nomination if he's not the candidate? No.

More...

He thinks too many of the presidential candidates arrive at their position on issues by listening to what focus groups say instead of having any real ideology. (I'm going to respect his privacy and not disclose his comments on individual candidates.) He thinks the Republicans will have a hard time in November '08. Right now, he can't imagine who he'd vote for (but he assured me it wouldn't be Hillary.)

I thanked him for sponsoring the bill to keep Dog the Bounty Hunter from getting extradited to Mexico. He said he's a big fan of Dog's. He didn't know anything about him before seeing his tv show.

His son, who's in college, shares his politics.

He does travel to Mexico. He has no problem with Mexico. He doesn't think the Mexican government would stand for Americans coming in without visas and he respects them for that. He said the media in Mexico is much more aggressive than our's.

I could hear his CNN segment from the makeup room. Listening to what he said -- he was arguing that two kids who have been here since they were two years old should not be allowed to attend college here and should be deported -- I just shook my head. How can a person who seems so normal and friendly have such backward ideas? Then again, I'm sure he'd say the same thing about me.

And, since he didn't make fun of the rollers in my hair or tease me that it took three times as long for my makeup as it did for his, I'm not going to say anything critical about him tonight. Tomorrow might be another story.

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    better you than me (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 11:07:46 PM EST
    but, then again, I'm not really good at just going up to people I've never met and introducing myself.  

    People tell me a lot of prominent people live, work, shop, whatever in my neighborhood or in neighborhoods where I pass through on whatever business.  I can't pick them out of a crowd to save myself, though I did see Mario Batali once.  Of course, he's so big he'd be hard to miss.  

    But, better you than me.  I just have a hard time dealing civilly with people with ideas differing from mine.  When I have to, I prefer to stay away from those topics, and therefore cultivate a knowledge of sports and some aspects of culture.  That way I can keep the conversation away from hot buttons.  I also ask a lot of questions but reveal few answers;  most people love to teach you about whatever it is they're passionate about.


    Tolerance? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Pancho on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 11:23:36 AM EST
    I just have a hard time dealing civilly with people with ideas differing from mine.

    Is it really so bad for someone to have a differing opinion. That is just sad, but so emblematic of the left.

    Parent

    No, it's not (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Kitt on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:53:47 PM EST
    I've met plenty of rigid people who are right of the political spectrum.

    Difference of opinion is one thing; rigidity is quite another.

    And...it would depend upon the issue

    Parent

    I love the immigration debate (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by glanton on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 01:40:46 PM EST
    And hope the Tancredos never shut up.  This is the most fractious force the GOP has had to deal with in a long time.  The rest of are passing the popcorn watching the fight between bigots and corporate overlords.

    Oh yeah, there are a few on both sides of the issue whose agenda doesn't stink to high heaven.  A blind groundhog will find an acorn every now and then.  

    ;-)

    I met him in '00 (1.00 / 0) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 10:33:52 PM EST
    (?) and was impressed with his open posture and politeness to one and all. Having made my living for years and years in complex sales I think I am able to spot phonies and aholes at 20 yards. Love him or hate him, he is real.

    Not to Mention (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 10:50:26 PM EST
    That you agree with his reactionary immigration policies.

    Parent
    You (none / 0) (#7)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 05:42:22 AM EST
    mean illegal immigration policies.  

    Parent
    Reactionary (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 07:50:01 AM EST
    And I don't know but maybe his policies are illegal too. If not they should be.

    Parent
    I'm convinced that (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 10:56:42 PM EST
    if you want to embarrass a public figure, you snap a picture of them with a smock on in a green room.

    Backwards? (none / 0) (#5)
    by LonewackoDotCom on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 11:58:18 PM EST
    The two students are citizens of another country and thus can appeal to their home country (Colombia IIRC) for help with college. If they get discounts, that will mean two less discounts available for U.S. citizens. Is it good public policy to take something from a U.S. citizen in order to give it to a foreign citizen who's here illegally? Is it good public policy to encourage people to bring their children here illegally thinking it will work out OK?

    Citizenship (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 01:23:48 AM EST
    isn't a zero-sum game. There's not a limited amount of citizenship to go around. So make them citizens. Immigration law is no more unchangeable than copyright law: both are historically variable.

    What is a citizen anyway? Is there some definition that holds for all time and places? Hasn't America's story been about the slow, painful,  and ultimately progressive enfranchisement of its population: propertyless white men, African-Americans, women? What presently makes undocumented people such objects of scorn? Cut them, do they not bleed?

    As for college admissions, does anyone remember the system composed of the great Clark Kerr's Univ. of Calif, the fine state universities and junior colleges? Every student graduating high school when I was a kid in California could get into college of one form or another, just about. You work hard enough you could go from a local J.C. to UC by transfer.  Again, education isn't a zero-sum game either, depending on how we decide to support it.

     Now CA spends virtually as much on prisons as on its universities. The US spends over $700 million a week in Iraq while the Bush Administration has added 3 trillion dollars to our national deficit. Neither strategy is working and the costs are being passed down to future generations.

    It seems to me that we're failing on public policy in any number of ways on education, foreign policy, or prison expansion. I wouldn't pin our policy dereliction on undocumented immigrants' desire for a better life.

    Parent

    Open borders is your claim (1.00 / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 10:03:48 AM EST
    Unlimited illegal aliens is your game..

    Citizenship isn't a zero-sum game. There's not a limited amount of citizenship to go around.

    What is a citizen anyway? Is there some definition that holds for all time and places?

    That is just an appeal for open borders. And what is a citizen? Try this:

    Citizen:

    a member of a state b : a native or naturalized person who owes allegiance to a government and is entitled to protection from it

    State:

    a politically organized body of people usually occupying a definite territory; especially : one that is sovereign

    Definite:

    having distinct or certain limits



    Parent
    You prefer a fortress America (none / 0) (#28)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 11:57:39 AM EST
    Reality is undocumented immigration does not threaten America's cultural identity or economy. Undocumented immigrants contribute while they're here, even as they use gov't services that cost locales money. For example, from the Udall Center in Arizona:

    Based on this study, the total state tax revenue attributable to immigrant workers was an estimated
    $2.356 billion ($862.1 million for naturalized citizens plus $1.49 billion for non-citizens). Balanced
    against estimated fiscal costs of $1.414 billion (for education, health care, and law enforcement), the
    net 2004 fiscal impact of immigrants in Arizona was positive by about $942 million.

    How about rationalizing the valuable economic and cultural connections with immigration law reform? Immigration law that allows for unionization, provides a path to citizenship, and protects workers from abuse at the hands of agribusiness or other employers. Both parties use the immigration controversy as a campaign talking point, but haven't really stepped forward to bring the crisis to a resolution.

    Closed borders are a fantasy, though regulated traffic ought to be possible.

    Nothing in your post acknowledges the experience of those who want to come here, which is too bad. I welcome people who come here looking to work and make a better life and haven't heard a single reason why they shouldn't be allowed to do so.

    Parent

    tnthorpe (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 07:22:51 PM EST
    The report you link to is fatally flawed from the beginning. Why?

    The report examines the two categories of immigrants (naturalized citizens and noncitizens)separately in order to disentangle the economic costs and benefits associated with each.

    Since it does not distinguish between foreign workers hear legally on visas and illegal aliens, any information under "noncitizen" is almost worthless when trying to analyze the impact of the illegal aliens. i.e. "noncitizen" is illegal aliens plus legal aliens. Immigrants are naturalized citizens.

    Education: For this analysis, English Language Learner (ELL) enrollment was used as a proxy for the number of immigrant children in Arizona's public schools. The 2004 cost of ELL education in Arizona was $544 million of which $352.2 million (65 percent) was incurred in Maricopa County.

    Yet even that almost worthless guideline is not used here. No mention is made of the two categories. All are lumped under "immigrant."

    Of the $134.4 million in uncompensated care costs associated with immigrants, $119.9 was incurred by non-citizens.

    Better, but we still don't know the split between the legal and illegal `noncitizen."

    Of the $641.9 million in (Medicaid) AHCCCS costs associated with
    immigrants, $477.4 million was incurred by non-citizens.

    That's right at 75%. But still no information on illegal alien vs legal alien.

    ..the cost to the Arizona Department of Corrections of incarcerating immigrants in 2004 was $90.9 million, of which $89.1 million was for non-citizens.

    So naturalized citizens were $1.8 million. Illegals and legals were $89.1 million. That is a HUGE number. The question is, of course, what did the illegals cost?

    Consumer spending in 2004 by naturalized citizen households in Arizona was an estimated $6.06 billion. Approximately 38,500 full-time equivalent jobs can be attributed to this spending

    Consumer spending in 2004 by non-citizen households in Arizona was an estimated $4.41 billion. Approximately 28,000 full-time...

    Here again we have no legal vs illegal split, and worse, we find the number of jobs that can be attributed to this spending is almost identical based on the dollars spent for both groups. 6400 per billion/naturalized vs 6360 per billion/non citizens Why you would expect a demographic group that has a very large number of low income consumers to produce the same amount of spending as a demographic with higher incomes, is not explained. It does suggest that no serious attempt was done to determine the actual numbers.

    The bias of the report is further highlighted by such statements as:

    Agriculture: A fifteen percent workforce reduction in the agriculture sector would result in direct losses of 3,300 full-time-equivalent jobs..

    This, of course is a "the sky is falling" argument, and does not take into consideration that with sufficient pay many of the jobs would be taken by citizens who are either now unemployed or under employed and looking for better pay. It also doesn't take into consideration that it would be possible to introduce more legal immigrants into the country.

    Arizona's foreign-born population has grown significantly since 1990 when there were 268,700
    immigrants in the state. By the year 2000, the number of immigrants had grown by 143 percent to
    652,200 and by 2004 it had grown to 830,900 people, an increase of over 300 percent from 1990.

    Again there are no numbers of the illegals, but the study shows that in 14 years the gross number had increased 300 percent. On an annul basis that would be approximately 8% per year, for an expected doubling to  approximately 1,680,000 in 9 years, or 2013. Since the increase isn't linear, look at the change between 2000 and 2004, of about 90,000 per year, or near 2,000,000  by 2013..

    And the real problem is that of the 831,000 immigrant growth, 619,800 is non- US citizen. Being generous and saying that 15% are here on visas, that means 85% are illegal, or a total of about 1,700,000..... And that assumes a linear growth for the next 9 years or so when we know the growth has been expotential.

    And since we also know that labor is a commodity that is sold, there will be no increase in wages, no better working conditions as long as this unlimited supply is made available.

    Close the borders.

    Parent

    There are no (none / 0) (#50)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 08:37:16 PM EST
    perfect numbers on undocumented vs documented vs naturalized citizens, and you make the perfect the enemy of the good here. I think you can assume that most non-citizens in the study are undocumented. Suit yourself.

    You want to build walls; I want to build bridges.

    There is absolutely nothing in the current economic situation that indicates that the US and Latin American economies will become less integrated. Closing borders might be possible for North Korea, but America is about the free flow of capital, ideas, people, labor, and it can be made rational. Reform immigration law, regulate the traffic as much as possible, and realize that immigrants from Mexico and Latin American are part of this nation's fabric. How long has it been since we annexed Texas and California anyway? 1845?

    Parent

    Just admit it. You want open borders. (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 09:27:58 PM EST
    There is a vast difference between NO numbers and educated estimates based on research. And when the try and do a learned study about immigration and do not separate those who are here legally and those who do not, they make those who do the study, and those who try to use it look foolish.

    And you continually make such wonderful comments as:

    Sin is bad. Love is good, etc.

    You know that when I say "close the borders" I mean stop the illegal influx of aliens into this country.

    That has nothing to do with the free flow of capital, ideas, etc.


    Parent

    Short-sighted (none / 0) (#40)
    by Al on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 03:32:12 PM EST
    If they get discounts, that will mean two less discounts available for U.S. citizens.

    You're assuming the only people who benefit from two more college graduates that otherwise might not be able to afford tuition are the two students themselves. In fact, all of society benefits from two more college graduates. What's the problem?

    If it is truly a competition, why exclude anybody? I don't get it. If these guys turn out to be heart surgeons, who cares where they're from?

    Parent

    Are you actually (none / 0) (#41)
    by Pancho on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 03:34:14 PM EST
    saying that citizens should not have preference over illegals?

    Parent
    Yes. That is what he saying. (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 09:28:45 PM EST
    Are you surprised?

    ;-)

    Parent

    Ewwww (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 06:47:00 AM EST
    I don't think I could have done it.  I can talk to just about anyone and find something about them that I respect or even admire.  Tom Tancredo though, I just don't want to go there.  Especially not right now where I am in my life.

    Why the respect (none / 0) (#10)
    by history is a weapon on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 08:11:39 AM EST
    Long time reader, first time commenter.
    I don't understand this: Tancredo, a racist who believes that people who have been in this country since infancy should be rounded up by men with guns and kicked out of the country, but he deserves his own privacy respected? Why? Would you respect his privacy if he was talking about jews or blacks or women?

    I had no idea that (1.00 / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 08:38:27 AM EST
    illegal aliens were a race.

    racist:

    a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

    I learn something every day.

    Parent

    Undocumented Workers (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 10:09:00 AM EST
    May not be a race but Tancredo's policies are right in line with white supremacists who consider themselves not only a race but a superior race. That makes Tancredo a racist because he believes that whites are superior and a race.

    Seems to me that you also have written that white people are superior to many foreign peoples as well as superior to the natives who were here before the white man arrived.

    Parent

    Now (none / 0) (#19)
    by Pancho on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 10:20:32 AM EST
    you are just making stuff up. Has Tancredo ever said anything even remotely close to that? Please provide the links.

    Parent
    Take Your Pick (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 10:39:36 AM EST
    Tancredo (none / 0) (#24)
    by Pancho on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 11:19:40 AM EST
    is against ILLEGAL immigration and the vast majority of illegal immigrants are Mexicans. This makes him popular with white supremacists. So what?

    Parent
    So What? (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 11:52:32 AM EST
    Considering that is Tancredos only platform to speak of his only constituency are those who are either white supremacists or those sympathetic to their cause.

    There have been other world leaders that have held this position. Their deeds and fate were an ugly blot on the face of history.

    Parent

    Do you think that (none / 0) (#27)
    by Pancho on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 11:55:29 AM EST
    maybe Hitler shared some of your opinions?

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:00:54 PM EST
    He did, things like eating pasta, or getting a massage. But that was not his driving ambition or legacy. His legacy was an evil and  maniacal desire to create a superior Aryan race that would rule the world.

     

    Parent

    What if the KKK (none / 0) (#30)
    by Pancho on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:25:22 PM EST
    supported taxpayer funded abortions, because they keep black population growth down? Would that make supporters of abortion racists?

    Illegal immigration has very real negative consequences that are felt most significantly in the communities where they live. In my city the illegal use the emergency room as a free clinic. The legal residents are then forced to pay more to cover their bills. There is plenty of money to send to Mexico, and for spinning rims and MS-13 tatoos, but none to pay for medical treatment.

    The schools have contorted themselves in ridiculous ways to accomodate THOUSANDS of illegal aliens and anchor babies, most of whom do not speak English, and thanks to liberals like you, are taught in Spanish. My kid pays $8/month for milk, while an illegal will pay about the same for milk, plus two hot meals a day. That's if they pay anything at all.

     They can't pay their own way, but they can sure send plenty of money to Mexico. If they do file an income tax return they will certainly get the Earned Income Tax Credit, which results in a cash payment to them.

    If you think that these things are OK, you are entitled to that opinion, but don't call a racist for speaking the truth.

    Parent

    47,000,000 (none / 0) (#31)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:50:33 PM EST
    people lack insurance, are they all undocumented immigrants? Didn't Bush just tell people that emergency rooms are great places for health care?

    After the Senate Finance Committee approved an expansion of the federal Children's Health Insurance Program to cover nearly 10 million kids, President Bush offered a strange rationale for threatening to veto it.

    "People have access to health care in America," he told an audience in Cleveland. "After all, you just go to an emergency room."

    Nothing you've said in your posts acknowledges the many valuable contributions made by immigrants, documented or otherwise. Why is that?

    Parent

    Nothing in your post (none / 0) (#34)
    by Pancho on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:57:31 PM EST
    acknowledges the many problems. Do you believe that illegals shou