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NYTimes: Warrantless Eavesdropping Dispute Over Data Mining

The Bush Administration has leaked the following story to the NYTimes as an explanation for Attorney General Gonzales' seemingly incorrect testimony:

A 2004 dispute over the National Security Agency’s secret surveillance program that led top Justice Department officials to threaten resignation involved computer searches through massive electronic databases, according to current and former officials briefed on the program. . . . The N.S.A.’s data mining has previously been reported. But the disclosure that concerns about it figured in the March 2004 debate helps to clarify the clash this week between Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and senators who accused him of misleading Congress and called for a perjury investigation.

The confrontation in 2004 led to a showdown in the hospital room of then Attorney General John Ashcroft, where Mr. Gonzales, the White House counsel at the time, and Andrew H. Card Jr., then the White House chief of staff, tried to get the ailing Mr. Ashcroft to reauthorize the N.S.A. program.

Mr. Gonzales insisted before the Senate this week that the 2004 dispute did not involve the Terrorist Surveillance Program “confirmed” by President Bush, who has acknowledged eavesdropping without warrants but has never acknowledged the data mining. If the dispute chiefly involved data mining, rather than eavesdropping, Mr. Gonzales’ defenders may maintain that his narrowly crafted answers, while legalistic, were technically correct.

Personally, I am at a loss at how this exonerates Alberto Gonzales. He flatly stated there was no dispute over the TSP. Later, he stated it was about the program President Bush confirmed. Data mining is a search without a warrant. The data mining is part of the same program. The speculation, indeed JUSTIFICATION, from many conservative legal scholars was that President Bush was discussing data mining. In fact, this NYTimes reporting is flat wrong, since in his discussion of the TSP, President Bush expressly referenced "the program" described in news reports, news reports that expressly discussed a data mining program. More.

Anonymous Liberal wrote a thorough post reviewing Gonzles' testimony on the matter and it is worth going through what he gathered with this new information in mind:

Here's the key passage that many have quoted from Gonzales' February 6, 2006 testimony:
SCHUMER: It's been reported by multiple news outlets that the former number two man in the Justice Department, the premier terrorism prosecutor, Jim Comey, expressed grave reservations about the NSA program and at least once refused to give it his blessing. Is that true?

GONZALES: Senator, here's the response that I feel that I can give with respect to recent speculation or stories about disagreements. There has not been any serious disagreement -- and I think this is accurate -- there has not been any serious disagreement about the program that the president has confirmed. There have been disagreements about other matters regarding operations which I cannot get into. I will also say...

SCHUMER: But there was some -- I'm sorry to cut you off -- but there was some dissent within the administration. And Jim Comey did express, at some point -- that's all I asked you -- some reservations.

GONZALES: The point I want to make is that, to my knowledge, none of the reservations dealt with the program that we're talking about today. They dealt with operational capabilities that we're not talking about today.

SCHUMER: I want to ask you, again, about -- we have limited time.

GONZALES: Yes, sir.

SCHUMER: It's also been reported that the head of the Office of Legal Counsel, Jack Goldsmith, respected lawyer and professor at Harvard Law School, expressed reservations about the program. Is that true?

GONZALES: Senator, rather than going individual by individual, let me just say that I think the differing views that have been the subject of some of these stories did not deal with the program that I'm here testifying about today.

SCHUMER: But you were telling us that none of these people expressed any reservations about the ultimate program, is that right?

GONZALES: Senator, I want to be very careful here, because, of course, I'm here only testifying about what the president has confirmed. And with respect to what the president has confirmed, I do not believe that these DOJ officials that you're identifying had concerns about this program.

This testimony, imo, fits into the narrative the NYTimes story is tryong to weave. The problem is the President confirmed the existence of a program that existed PRIOR to the infamous Comey/Goldsmith/Meuller revolt:

At another point in the testimony Gonzales said:
GONZALES: Of course, there were debates, Senator. If I may just finish this thought, think about the issues that are implicated here: a very complicated Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act -- it's extremely complicated -- the president's inherent authority under the Constitution as commander in chief, the Fourth Amendment, the interpretation of the authorization to use military force. You've got a program that's existed over four years. You have multiple lawyers looking at the legal analysis. Of course, there's -- I mean, this is what lawyers do. We disagree, we debate, we argue.
Here again, Gonzales concedes that "the program" has existed for over four years. So he can't now claim that he was only referring to the program that existed from mid-2004 onward.

AL then hits on the clinching problems for Gonzales:

And here's the final nail in the coffin. Gonzales testified that "there has not been any serious disagreement about the program that the president has confirmed." He has repeatedly used this construction to hedge his statements.

Fine then, let's look at what the President actually confirmed. President Bush first revealed the existence of the NSA program in his weekly radio address on December 17, 2005. Here's what he said:

In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks.

This is a highly classified program that is crucial to our national security. Its purpose is to detect and prevent terrorist attacks against the United States, our friends and allies. Yesterday the existence of this secret program was revealed in media reports, after being improperly provided to news organizations. . . .

The activities I authorized are reviewed approximately every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats to the continuity of our government and the threat of catastrophic damage to our homeland. During each assessment, previous activities under the authorization are reviewed. The review includes approval by our nation's top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al Qaeda and related groups.




Obviously this predates the adjusted program, as AL notes but it does more in my mind -- it in no way excludes data mining.

The President neither described nor confirmed any particular method of eavesdropping.

In a different post, Orin Kerr discussed data mining as a possible program described by the President:

That seems somewhat odd to me, because, as I've explained before, my primary legal concerns are statutory, not constitutional. This raises a couple of different possibilities. For example, it may be that the program doesn't violate FISA after all, and the debate within government has really been about the Fourth Amendment. The concern within some government officials may be that scanning traffic en masse for phone numbers or e-mail addresses of even foreign calls may violate the Fourth Amendment rights of domestic people whose communications are scanned (even only in the passing way that any Internet wiretap must scan all traffic). That is consistent with Risen's claim that "Now that [foreign to] foreign calls were being routed through switches that were physically on American soil, eavesdropping on those calls might be a violation of the regulations and laws restricting the NSA from spying inside the United States." The "regulations and laws" don't seem to be FISA, as I believe FISA is implicated only when the person monitored is in the United States; could those "laws" be the Fourth Amendment? Are there other "regulations" that govern the NSA that might be implicated here? It's hard to tell. Of course, it's also possible that the Fourth Amendment concerns are a bit of a red herring: the claim may be a cover for other motives. Who knows.

It is very clear that Orin Kerr considered data mining as one of many potential aspects of the program "confirmed by the President." Indeed, it seems clear to me that the President was intentionally very non-specific about what he was describing. How could Gonzales have been so sure what the President was describing was NOT data mining? As AL notes, Gonzales' own testimony describes the program that existed prior to the exclusion of data mining.

The Times simply gets it wrong when it writes:

In response to the [NYTimes] articles, Mr. Bush confirmed the eavesdropping, saying it was limited to communications in and out of the United States involving people suspected of ties to Al Qaeda. He did not, however, confirm the data mining, nor has any other official done so publicly.

Let's repeat what the President said:

In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks.

This is a highly classified program that is crucial to our national security. Its purpose is to detect and prevent terrorist attacks against the United States, our friends and allies. Yesterday the existence of this secret program was revealed in media reports, after being improperly provided to news organizations. . . .

The activities I authorized are reviewed approximately every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats to the continuity of our government and the threat of catastrophic damage to our homeland. During each assessment, previous activities under the authorization are reviewed. The review includes approval by our nation's top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al Qaeda and related groups.

(Emphasis supplied.) Intercepts do NOT exclude data mining. Nor did the "reports" that President Buish EXPRESSLY mentions exclude data mining. On the contrary, those report expressly feature data mining issues as the Times itself describes in this article:

In December 2005, The Times published articles describing the program, the data mining and the internal legal debate. The newspaper reported that the N.S.A. had combed large volumes of telephone and Internet traffic in search of patterns that might point to terrorism suspects. . . . The uproar grew when USA Today reported in May 2006 more details of the N.S.A.’s acquisition from telephone companies of the phone call databases. In response to the articles, Mr. Bush confirmed the eavesdropping, saying it was limited to communications in and out of the United States involving people suspected of ties to Al Qaeda.

The President SPECIFICALLY referenced the news reporting and the programs described therein. It is thus untenable for the NYTimes to now state:

He did not, however, confirm the data mining, nor has any other official done so publicly.

He in fact DID confirm that he was talking about the program described in the newspaper reports, that DID in fact report a data mining program.

Thus when:

Mr. Gonzales defended the surveillance in an appearance before the Senate Judiciary Committee in February 2006, saying there had been no internal dispute about its legality. He told the senators: “There has not been any serious disagreement about the program that the president has confirmed. There have been disagreements about other matters regarding operations, which I cannot get into.”

He did not tell the truth. The President was referring to newspaper reports that described data mining; he confirmed those reports. This is bad work by the NYTimes, yet again.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Stupid talking points (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:14:51 PM EST
    to RW bloggers, and a red herring to the New York Times. What does this add up to, disarray or a plan?

    I dunno (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:36:36 PM EST
    IT is perplexig but really bad work by the Times.

    Parent
    The can't seem to get past (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:43:46 PM EST
    Judy Millerism. Now that Gail Collins is back, maybe she can criticize the other side of her paper.


    Parent
    It seems obvious (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by buhdydharma on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:10:41 PM EST
    that in the heady days after 9/11, Bushco and the Intelligence community went hog wild on spying on everybody...using every method at their disposal and (undoubtedly at Cheney's urging) didn't worry too darn much about the legality if any of it.

    Now that they are being called to account for it they are trying to control the damage and spin the facts and Cover their ass as much as possible.

    In the process they have perpetrated a massive conspiracy to cover up the illegalities and are perjuring themselves out of the frying pan and into the fire.

    It is exactly the same thing they did with rendition and the networks of secret torture prisons as well. I don't know when or if that excrement will strike the whirling blades...but if it does, it will be incredibly damning as well.

    Remember all the Muslims they rounded up here as well. Thousands of them...all released....eventually.

    These guys engaged in HUGE excesses as they saw themselves as Superheros saving America from the Muslim Menace and got their Jack Bauer on. They were totally out of control and positive that the Rules of War would vindicate them. But there was and is no global Jihad threatening America to the point were we needed to suspend the Constitution and Geneva. That is what they were counting on to justify their excess.

    From where I sit, they might as well have Guilty As Sin tattooed across their foreheads.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:16:34 PM EST
    if the big secret was data mining, there was no big secret.

    That's my point here.

    Parent

    I think "The Secret" (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by buhdydharma on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:57:32 PM EST
    Is what was done with the data that had been mined.

    How did they use it? Who was targeted? What criteria were used for targeting? What steps did they take to pursue them? How far did they go?

    How many other programs are there? What are those?

    But, you were/are talking specifics and I was generalizing, so I was in essence, off topic. To me data mining has always just been a logical extension, so I never considered that that was what they were trying to cover up, either.

    Now if there was a wider extent of data mining under the OTHER programs...they might not want to emphasize or let talk about data mining appear at all...


    Parent

    That is possible (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:59:27 PM EST
    They're just kicking more dust in our eyes (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 11:58:50 PM EST
    trying to confuse the issue enough to give Fredo room for benefit of the doubt. Their starting point is always the political payoff - assume anything substantive is to that end. They want everyone parsing and untangling and wading through conflicting stories in the media trying to find the truth. The only way they're going to be able to escape responsibility is to keep it all too complicated for a distracted public to follow. If it can't be set out in a clear simple tale of malfeasance - a lot clearer than all this - they're going to be able to brazen it out, stonewalling all the way.

    That seems clear (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:23:41 AM EST
    Parsing becomes you. (1.00 / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:10:17 PM EST
    And you claim they are the same program??

    I had always wondered what happened that made Ashcroft decide to not sign the phone conversation monitoring extension. After all it had been around for years and he had signed off time and again.

    Now we know. It was a different program. Gonzales spoke the truth.

    Again. No SP. And if you want to impeach, impeach. Don't talk.

    Understanding (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:15:59 PM EST
    is not parsing.

    Since you seem to understand nothing, it makes little sense to engage you.

    Yet again you type a post that is utterly nonsensical.

    It was the SAME program that the President had been getting approved. Why Ashcroft didn't sign off? Are you really this dumb? He was in the freaking hospital under sedation you dope.

    That is one of the big controversies, why did Gonzo and  the CoS try to bypass Comey.

    Honestly Jim, you are either really stupid are really dishonest.

    Parent

    Go a head and cry (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:29:50 PM EST
    Honestly Big Tent, you hate to lose worse than anyone I have ever known.

    Look, Rove played the game brillantly. He waited patiently until your side over extended themselves and then chopped them off at the knees.

    Data mining was a completely separate program. Gonzales waved the flag and the Demos charged. I mean, how many people wrote: "How could he be so stupid to say...." without ever thinking that was a trap being laid.... What I really think is funny is that Schumer just got done telling everybody how the evileeeeee Bush and company out smarted him and would never do it again..

    Yeah. Sure. Well, not for a week anway.

    Parent

    Cry? Lose? (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:40:24 PM EST
    Tell me what in blazes I am crying about? What did I lose?

    Frankly, it is clear you actually do not even have the foggiest notion what this is about.

    You can't even troll the issue cuz you have no idea what it is about.

    Parent

    Is there a word (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by aj12754 on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:02:09 PM EST
    that would capture the concept of a person so willfully and woefully uninformed that the word troll is actually too good for them?  Some thing that captures both the extent of their slavish dependence on talking points proveided by others as well as their inability to grasp even the clearest line of logical reasoning?

    Hmmmm -- bottom feeder maybe?

    Parent

    Is there a word? (1.00 / 2) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:30:42 PM EST
    That captures the essence of someone who doesn't debate but makes only nasty personal comments?

    Yes there is, but I won't use it because you have used it on yourself.

    Please continue the attacks. They define you.

    Parent

    I see... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by aj12754 on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 02:52:36 PM EST
    In Jim we have a thin-skinned bottom feeder.

    Nothing in any of your postings deserves any kind of debate"on the merits" because there is nothing substantive in what you post.  

    So you take offense. Like that's gonna help your position.  Try a fact.  You might like it if you don't choke on it.

    Parent

    BION (1.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 03:18:09 PM EST
    I don't mind your attacks because they do define you, not me. And I've been around for four years so it isn't like I haven't had a few.

    My point remains. You don't debate, you merely snark. Just look above. Not one point regarding my comment, just personal attacks.

    Like I said, keep it up.

    Parent

    Apparently a thin-skinned, none-too-bright (none / 0) (#55)
    by aj12754 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 07:17:26 PM EST
    bottom feeder.

    Per usual, you missed the point.  Nothing in what you said added anything to the discussion and thus was not worthy of response.  Clear enough for you?

    Wanna a better response, build a better case.  

    Parent

    Oh really? I don't know what the issue is? (1.00 / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:28:30 PM EST
    Do you not understand that you have been caught in a huge over extension? The Demos have managed to do what all thought to be impossible. Make Gozales an object of sympathy.

    Congratulations.


    Parent

    You do not even understand (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:25:59 AM EST
    what the issues are.

    You need to wait for an issue you  can actually understand before you try and troll it Jim.

    Parent

    Heh (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 08:14:25 AM EST
    The  issue is?

    The issue is that the NYT article confirmns what Gonzales said.

    The Demo talking point is now that TSP and data mining are actually one in the same so Gonzales committed perjury.

    That's thin gruel for dinner.

    Parent

    As I said (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 10:28:04 AM EST
    You have no idea what the issue is.

    Parent
    I think he does, actually. (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 10:45:12 AM EST
    But he pretends not to. His intention is to try to confuse the issue, as Bush and Gonzales do. He's a troll...

    Data Mining, sifting through data records obtained through warrantless surveillance of Americans in Bush's intentionally misrepresentionally and obfuscatingly named "Terrorist Surveillance Program" (TSP) can in no way be considered two separate programs. One leads to the other which depends on the first.

    It would be like calling the head and the tail of a cat two separate things that have no connection with each other.

    Neither does one (TSP) cause Data Mining. They are part and parcel of the same animal.

    Parent

    Disagree (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 10:53:51 AM EST
    He is a Rove wannabe without the beef.

    Parent
    Heh! Well, ok... (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:10:36 AM EST
    Maybe he's not pretending then. I keep asking him and he can't seem to answer though, so I guess that does support him not pretending.... ;-)

    I just try to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's hard to believe anyone real could be that deficient, you know?

    Parent

    But then (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:23:38 AM EST
    I guess it really doesn't matter whether he's pretending or not. Either way lends no credence to anything he says, does it?

    ;-)

    Parent

    Mendacity and Dimness (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by squeaky on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:30:14 AM EST
    Are not mutually exclusive terms. But his low intelligence makes him slightly sympathetic. Ever so slightly.

    Parent
    squeaky (1.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 01:18:33 PM EST
    Ah squeaky.... I have tried to think of something simple enough to explain this to you....try this.

    The walls of house and the roof of the house are part of the house.

    But they do not provide the same function and they are not constructed the same.

    In fact, we could all agree that we have perfectly constructed walls, and disagree totally over the roof's construction, ability to shed water, etc,

    In fact I would opine that there have been many law suits over roofs that never mentioned walls.

    Parent

    edger (1.00 / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 01:11:39 PM EST
    From a legal point of view they are entirely separate.

    Phone tapping has been around since 1971 and...

    John Schmidt, associate attorney general of the United States in the Clinton administration, superbly explains why the NSA intercept program is legal under all authorities and precedents:

    "In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

    Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant."

    Link

    Data mining has not.

    Parent

    No they are not. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 01:16:29 PM EST
    And since you are not a coward I know you have an answer for this, ppj.

    I am right that you are not a coward, yes?

    Parent

    No, he just has other (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 03:32:37 PM EST
    priorities.

    Parent
    Edger - Loves strawmen. (1.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 03:22:53 PM EST
    So you want to claim that war is bad, people get hurt and some Iraqis are angry??

    Now.

    How does that refute my claim that the two programs are entirely separate?

    Parent

    Didn't really think (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 04:42:02 PM EST
    you could face her or address what she said in any real way.

    Too much of a mirror for you....

    Parent

    edger hugs the strawman (1.00 / 1) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 06:47:22 PM EST
    So you have no response to my factual claim that the two programs are not the same.

    Nothing unusual there.

    Parent

    It's political (none / 0) (#8)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:28:59 PM EST
    Ten bucks says they were spying on Congressional Democrats. Again. Karl must have been whining and whining after they shut down that little backdoor hack that he -- oops, I mean, overzealous staffers -- had been using.

    Democrats? (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:58:21 PM EST
    More likely Rethugs, to keep them on the plantation and in lockstep.

    Parent
    Er... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Strick on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:48:11 PM EST
    Data mining is a search without a warrant.

    Quite true it is a search and there's no warrant.  Of course, as I understand the law, no warrant is required, since the government is "mining" data it already has or acquires legally.  Data mining is essentially a very complex google search of what the government already knows.

    More specifically, data mining is using data you already have to look for patterns (statistical patterns, think lots of exotic math) you believe are related to some behavior.  

    The classic example is a convenience store data mining its sales records to discover that there's a correlation between diaper and beer sales.  The theory is that when a husband is sent out for diapers late in the evening, if he thinks about it, he'll pick up a six pack of beer.  Want to increase beer sales?  Put a display of beer near where you keep diapers to increase how often he notices it.  Marketers love this stuff.

    Where this program is concerned, I assume they're looking for factors they believe might indicate terrorist behavior.

    Data mining for terrorist activity is controversial, because, as a statistically based technique, it's been argued we just don't have enough terrorist attacks to make anything we're looking for statistically significant.  See what Jeff Jonas has to say.

    Jonas's argument is only as his understanding of what the government's looking for, though.  While he's right that statistics won't predict another 9/11 because there's only been one of them (thank God), it might be effective against more frequent events, such as money laundering.

    I realize that that's an aside on the issue of whether Gonzales lied or not, but in any realistic sense, there's probably no connection between their data mining program and any surveillance program that listens in on phone calls.  Data mining doesn't really work with that kind of data.

    Interestngly (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:53:37 PM EST
    Apparently, Comey, Goldsmith and Mueller disagree with you when you say:

    "Of course, as I understand the law, no warrant is required, since the government is "mining" data it already has or acquires legally."

    Take it up with them.

    Parent

    Bet They Can't Define Even "Data Mining" (none / 0) (#19)
    by Strick on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:25:00 PM EST
    It would be interestin