Rationalizing Grievous Mistakes

In March of this year, I had many a battle with Netroots leaders on the Iraq Supplemental. Today, I think any fair person would say that I was right and they were wrong.

But the Netroots leaders won't admit their mistakes or even try to learn from their mistakes. Here is an example of the disingenuous rationalizing we are sure to see from them:

For some progressives, there seems to be a desire to pounce on anything negative, compromising, or seemingly right-wing the Democratic Party might do as a means of justifying their wish to keep a distance from the Democratic Party, or even from contemporary electoral politics altogether. This perspective seems to me to be based on having higher expectations for the Democratic Party in the short term than I do, and a general unwillingness to associate with the Democratic Party until it reaches those expectations, rather than working within the party to help it reach those expectations.

What a crock. No one wants to distance themselves from the Democratic Party. But we understand that politicians understand PRESSURE, and very little else. Indeed, the writer and his web site was pressuring the Out of Iraq caucus members in the House to vote for the horrible Iraq supplemental bill. His expectations were not the problem, rather his poor judgment on the matter. One could read this type of sophistry from the DLC. I repeat, what a crock.

But there is more:

By way of contrast, from my perspective, the negative, right-wing compromises people point out in the Democratic Party are simply a given, as they are reflective of long-standing power imbalances that have gone unchecked by those who wish to withdrawal from the Democratic Party and electoral politics.

More rationalizing nonsense. Instead of just admitting his and his web site's mistakes, this writer chooses to be a mindreader, and a bad one at that. Those who wish to withdrawal from Iraq DO NOT want to withdraw from the Democratic Party. They want to shape it up. The writer screwed up in his approach and now those who got it right are subject to false smears from him. How low will he go? Lower:

From this vantage point, anything the Democratic Party accomplishes beyond negative, right-wing compromises is a positive sign of the improving situation within the Democratic Party caused by increasing and more effective progressive involvement within the party.

Nonsense. The writer and his web site were part of the sit down and shut up shouting that the progressive elements got from him, and Meyerson and Move On and many, many others. He and his web site said their way was the best way to end the war. Well, it wasn't. And now he writes this? What a crock.

And listen to the self congratulation for prior successes:

I never thought we would, for example, manage to kick Joe Lieberman out of the party, force Democrats to run against the Iraq war, and then send a bill with a withdrawal timeline to Bush's desk. Just eighteen months before Bush vetoed the Iraq Accountability Act, Rahm Emanuel refused to even mention Iraq in televised interviews, Joe Lieberman was penning Iraq op-eds in the Wall Street Journal on behalf of Democrats, and fewer than a dozen Senators supported a timeline for withdrawal. When placed in the broad context of the American political struggle over war in Iraq, starting in early 2002 with the drumbeat and continuing straight through to the fight over the Iraq supplemental, progressives clearly have the momentum, and the Democratic Party is moving in a progressive direction.

And how did that happen? By not letting hometeamism overcome our judgment. The writer and his web site failed miserably in March of this year precisely because they FORGOT how all those things were accomplished. I have made that point many times and precisely what I feared about Netroots cooptation happened on the most important issue of the day.

Finally, the congitive dissonance takes over:

It is important to have regular discussion between progressives whose first inclination is to defend the Democratic Party on the grounds of pragmatic, long-term progress, and those progressive whose first inclination is to attack it for failure to reach lofty expectations in the short-term. Without perspective both on what lefty progressives are aiming for, and on how that can be achieved, both the Realpolitk and Sturm und Dang groups can quickly lose their way.

There are no such groupings. See, this writer simply will not take accountability for HIS and his web site's mistakes. He tries to make it some broader question. It is not a broader question. He and many others screwed up. Those of us who opposed his approach did so because we thought the situation through, not because of kneejerk anti-Dem Partyism. This outrageous apologia show us what is wrong with the Netroots - selfish, self absorbed, unthinking and unwilling to admit mistakes.

If things end up going badly in the Iraq supplemental fight this week . . I hope this is something everyone in the progressive movement remembers.

If? Will the writer remember what he and his web site did in March to help lead to this failure? Will he admit their mistakes and remember not to repeat them?

And the final self-congratulation:

While a watered down bill that funds the war through September . . . we have still made tremendous progress by working within the party these past few years. At the same time, it would be wrong to declare total victory and reserve any criticism of our performance to date.

Don't worry, I'll remember to criticize. And I'll do it in earnest, not this little disingenuous piece that this writer delivered.

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    I was wrong (5.00 / 10) (#7)
    by pontificator on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:12:36 PM EST
    I bleieved in the Moveon strategy to take gradual steps to end the war.

    I believed that once Congress forced Bush to veto a reasonable bill to end the war reasonably, it would have the courage to say that it tried to end the war responsibly, but Bush would have none of it, and therefore whatever blame there was for a harsh funding cutoff would lay at Bush's feet.

    I now see that I was wrong, and all along this was nothing but "Kabuki theater" by the irresponsible Democrats in congress to placate what it sees as the "Activists."

     Well, I will no longer be a puppet in their Kabuki theater play.  I don;t like having my trust betrayed, I don't like being shown to be wrong, and I will remember this betrayal and act accordingly.

    Good (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:18:04 PM EST
    And remember the most important lesson, I am always right . . . Heh

    "heh" indeed. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by andgarden on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:19:10 PM EST
    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by pontificator on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:23:01 PM EST
    Yes, that is the MOST important lesson

    I thought this was about (none / 0) (#25)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue May 22, 2007 at 08:58:17 PM EST
    ending the war.

    You really ARE confused (none / 0) (#27)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:24:05 PM EST
    I expected so much more than this from the blogosphere.

    I was right (none / 0) (#28)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:34:35 PM EST
    Democrats won't unite behind defunding and Repugs will unite against it.

    You were right (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:44:42 PM EST
    that Dems would cave on this issue. So what? Want a medal? Lots of people were right that they would cave. I knew they would cave too.

    But we have been offering them a strategy to avoid caving if they don't want to cave. You have been offering a strategy on how to cave, and they accepted it. Congratulations. You must be proud.


    my impression is (1.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:50:29 PM EST
    people are incapable of disagreeing with you without caving in to the other side.

    lol (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:53:27 PM EST
    i mean like this:

    if you liked rocky road, and you met someone who like strawberry swirl, the inclination to say "YOU SPINELESS COWARD, YOU ARE CAVING IN TO FRUITY FLAVORS!!!" must be so intense you can barely contain yourself.


    Just terrible (none / 0) (#45)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:08:43 PM EST
    I really expected more from the blogosphere than ice cream comparisons. Sad.

    it'd truly be strange (none / 0) (#46)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:13:32 PM EST
    if i was now part of the blogoshere and all those people calling dems cowards right now weren't.

    You're definitely part (none / 0) (#49)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:18:52 PM EST
    of the blogosphere whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, stop posting.

    Not "placate" (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Edger on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:20:10 PM EST
    Attempt to co-opt.
    The unified message that the Democrat leaders are talking about is that the mess in Iraq is all the fault of George W. Bush and the Republicans in Congress. This theme is now dominating the work coming out of these Democratic Party front groups and their job is to make sure that no one points any fingers of responsibility at the Democrats in Congress who continue to fund the occupation. We are not supposed to talk about that unsettling fact.
    "There's a dividing line between those groups who feel the most important thing is to be clear on bringing the troops home as soon as possible, and the groups that feel that unity within the Democratic Party is most important and the most important thing is for the Democrats to win the White House," said Medea Benjamin, a co-founder of Code Pink, an antiwar group that is not part of the alliance. "So the groups who feel the most important thing is to win the White House would naturally be more inclined to listening to Speaker Nancy Pelosi when she says the only way we can get a vote through is if we water it down."

    However you have come to the table (none / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:13:15 PM EST
    I'm glad that you are here.  It means a lot to me personally, and probably a lot of other people out there too that have so much life and death hanging in the balance where Iraq is concerned.

    Has Bowers lost his mind entirely now? (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Edger on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:13:02 PM EST
    That first quote is straight out of the rove playbook of diversion and strawman arguments.

    Look (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:19:00 PM EST
    None of us likes to admit we screwed up but sometimes it is the best course.

    Chris and Matt need to see that.

    I'll be sure to point it out to them . . .


    You just did, no? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:27:10 PM EST
    You're not reading this right (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by Maryb2004 on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:21:55 PM EST
    That last quote is the key -- but don't be misled into thinking that "we" means us.  It doesn't.  It means "Chris Bowers".

    we have still made tremendous progress by working within the party these past few years. At the same time, it would be wrong to declare total victory and reserve any criticism of our performance to date.

    Once you substitute in the right words the whole thing makes sense.  He's made tremendous progress in the party and he's not going to criticize the party although he might be critical of himself in previously not believing in the party.  And he knows he's not exactly where he wants to be ... yet.

    Bowers is the most self-absorbed blogger in the blogosphere.  Yes, even worse than you.  I've never understood why anyone takes him seriously.

    Read this nonsense from him (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:46:54 PM EST
    Like I said, I simply don't think they had the ability to do so indefinitely. Eventually, enough of the caucus would have broken, joined with the Reps, and passed a blank check bill.

    The Democratic caucus is a fundamentally different animal than the Republican caucus. This comes partially from representing far more "Bush" districts than Reps represent "Kerry" districts, but mostly it has to do with elections not fundamentally altering the location and infrastructure of political power. Democrats may have won the 2006 elections, but those elections did not cause a collapse of the Republican Noise Machine, DLC-nexus, or conservative movement. Political power still exists in spades for those groups, no matter who holds elected office. Public opinion and a congressional majority are simply not enough to pass the kind of legislation we seek.

    by Chris Bowers

    If he knew that then why the f*ck was he pushing for the House Supplemental. Hell, I knew that and knew this day would come and that it would be disaster today. It is why I OPPOSED the freaking bill!!

    Is he simply a dumbass?


    More Ridicu-Chris (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:50:38 PM EST
    Re: Public Opinion and Political Power On Iraq (none / 0)

    No. I think passing the bill with timelines, and having it vetoed by Bush, was both a defining moment of contrast between the two parties and a demonstration that they only thing keeping the war going (at least at its current level) is having a Republican in the White House. Even if we didn't get everything we wanted, that feels like anything but a mistake to me.

    by Chris Bowers on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:17:45 PM EST

    The obvious retort is delivered:

    Re: Public Opinion and Political Power On Iraq (none / 0)

    But wasn't that defining moment completely undercut by today's capitulation?

    by Benstrader

    Of course it is. And that is why it was idioticv to support the House Supplemental bill.



    Bruh sticks in the knife (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:52:05 PM EST
    Re: Public Opinion and Political Power On Iraq (none / 0)

    The only thing that comes out of this is that the the party and those running under its banner looks weak. I am not exactly sure how polls don't matter here, but they do matter on issues like a primary that are months off.

    by bruh21



    The key in his second post (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Maryb2004 on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:32:31 PM EST
    was this:

    In contemporary American politics, neither public opinion nor an occasional slip-up in the media does not directly equal political power ... large donors, consultants, lobbyists, center-right opinion journalists and policy presentations from "think tanks" like Third Way are quite real.

    In fact, he confirms it in the comments:

    The entire point of this post is that beyond elective office and beyond public opinion, contemporary political power lies in other sources, such as "large donors, consultants, lobbyists, center-right opinion journalists and policy presentations from "think tanks" like Third Way."

    I don't think he's a dumbass, I think he's smart but intellectually arrogant. And that's his downfall.  Deep down, he wants the people who "count" to listen to him the way they listen to consultants, lobbyists, opinion journalists and people from think tanks.  He thinks he deserves to be listened to because he thinks he's smarter than most other people.  

    I think he fell into the trap of not criticizing them or pushing for strategies they don't like, and going along with their strategies because he thinks he's started to establish a reputation with them. And he wants to protect the connection.  He may not even be aware that he's doing it.

    Total opinion on my part, of course.


    Say what? (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:17:23 PM EST
    "because he thinks he's started to establish a reputation with them"

    He has one - as a dirty effing hippie.

    For crissakes, this is the same nonsense that Mattzie of Move On believed.

    The Netroots has a brand. Pragmatic compromiser it ain't.


    At least you keep me laughing tonight (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:28:05 PM EST
    I'm not giving up another night's sleep to this issue.  Since January I swear I have lost about 60 nights sleep to it and that has to be enough.  I'm accomplishing nothing other than destroying one more shred of my own quality of life and I have had to give up enough of that as it is.  So I'm taking two benadryl and calling it a night and I'm inducing sleep whether it likes it or not.  CIAO to all the crazy followers of the Arrogant Tantrum Genius and True Netroots Leader BTD.

    Believe what you want (none / 0) (#54)
    by Maryb2004 on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:53:01 PM EST
    imo he wants to be taken seriously by them and that's influencing his blogging.

    I'm possibly influenced by the fact that I find him insufferably arrogant, not to mention sexist.


    I'm not disagreeing with you (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:09:06 AM EST
    I am ridiculing the thought you are identifiying.

    Here's my towel (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by JanL on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:51:31 PM EST
    ...I give up on Bowers for policy stuff, but he can be diabolical on reading polls and other wonkery.  He's just wrong, not hateful.  
    As for me...I'm with pontificator.  I'm going to act accordingly.  Cancelled the Democracy Bond, since IAVA can use the money.  At least I feel like they are honest and will use the money well.  I'm also sending off a snappy note to Tester, Webb, and McNerney since I helped out with their campaigns in the fall.  Don't get me wrong - they may be better than Repub's but they get no points for this, the Big One.
    I'm at a loss for words, except I am sorry I thought the Democrats that were duly elected in the fall would do so well on this issue.  After a summer of blood & guts, I do hope they don't rest easy.  

    does it change your mind (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Miss Devore on Tue May 22, 2007 at 08:31:38 PM EST
    on impeachment?

    Why should it? (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by andgarden on Tue May 22, 2007 at 08:34:26 PM EST
    Impeachment actually DOES require a supermajority in the Senate.

    was I talking to you? (2.33 / 3) (#22)
    by Miss Devore on Tue May 22, 2007 at 08:45:34 PM EST
    kinda doubt it.

    Got your name wrong (5.00 / 7) (#24)
    by andgarden on Tue May 22, 2007 at 08:52:21 PM EST
    It should obviously be Miss Manners. ::rolleyes::

    The nunbers (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by squeaky on Tue May 22, 2007 at 08:47:39 PM EST
    Are against you on that.  It is a waste  of time. No Republican will go along with it.

    The equivalent is death from chocolate, or something like that.


    As soon as (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Edger on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:16:31 PM EST
    that veto-proof majority is formed, apparently is any second now, it will be a cakewalk. Even the rethugs will be dropping roses. :-/

    No (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by JanL on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:13:52 PM EST
    But I ask you - do you honestly think this crop of legislators will call Bush to account for his actions regarding the FISA laws?  This is where Bush is truly in jeopardy, but I think they will not.  I find it inexplicable.  I hope I am wrong.  They seem to find it tolerable that our soldiers are now supporting the Iranian side of the civil war in Iraq, so my hopes are threadbare.  If they do, I will be standing right behind them.  Until then, I am blessed with many local causes that really do affect my life daily.  I'm putting my energy into those causes, and of course IAVA and the USO with my little bit of money.  

    Bowers seems a tad overly arrogant (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:58:53 PM EST
    for a successful bean counter. Arrogance doesn't pay for much but I'll probably die trying because I have bad genes in that department.  Arrogance won't make one into a netroots leader either.  You have to have action, the goals of a leader and not just another follower, and determination to go along with the intellect or you're just a bean counter even if you're an arrogant one.

    I'm really dismayed, BTD, by the rhetoric (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jpete on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:29:42 PM EST
    you are using in describing battle you are having with "the netroots leaders," as though you are not one.

    And perhaps you feel you are somehow not one right now, that you are more of an outsider?  Thinking about this, I've been thinking of the role of outsiders in this sort of process.  

    Some outsiders get drawn inside, and they have a kind of diminished influenced.  Those who can remain outsiders can have a much more powerful effect, but it might well not be apparent right away.  

    So I hope and expect you will keep your strong and uncompromised voice.  You have really won this round in the netroots, however much we would wish you hadn't been shown to be  right, just because who want to see the dems stumble yet again.

    Of course I am not a leader (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:36:18 PM EST
    in the Netroots.

    That is simply a fact.

    I wish I were.


    It is fair to point out (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by andgarden on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:49:14 PM EST
    that you used to have a pretty big audience. Now. . .(how are the traffic figures here?)

    On a good day (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:53:57 PM EST
    20,000. Now MYDD does 30 on a good day but they are perceived as the Netroots.

    When I was at Daily Kos I could set agendas and start battles.

    When I left the FP, we were doing 700k a day.

    I could start stuff then.


    You will come a place where you can start (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:59:56 PM EST
    stuff again but do you want to?  Don't worry your pretty little head about it.  You were correct about the Iraq supplemental and no good deed goes unpunished in American politics ;)

    Well, that's not nothing (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by andgarden on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:00:13 AM EST
    It would have been good for 700k to hear you yelling at Obama last  month. It seems perfectly obvious to me that your plan was the only one, and it might have gotten some traction. I mean, think of the checks you'd have gotten from Dodd! ;-)

    On the other hand (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Maryb2004 on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:10:07 AM EST
    you could turn into the Bill Moyers of blogging.  Being stuck on public television isn't always a bad thing.

    Mary (5.00 / 6) (#67)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:15:48 AM EST
    I am doing what I have always doing, telling people what I think.

    I like to think of Truman's saying 'I'm telling the truth and they think it's hell.'

    Oneo fhte problems of the Netroots, and I say this in all seriousness, is this whole idea that we do not criticize each other.

    For crissakes, people should always criticize each other. Understand something, Bowers is a good egg with a good heart. So is Stoller and everyone else I am have been fighting with.

    Let's not let egos dissuade us from telling truths to each other. That is the part of the new civility kick that drives me batty.

    If you know about me, you know there is a fellow at daily kos who I loathe. I think very badly of him and he thinks badly of me. But I do not condemn his incivlity. It is the duplicity and lack of straightforwardness that galls me.

    And it has become contagious. The fear of the truth, even of the true opinions held, is what I detest.

    We want that don't we?


    Would (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:13:53 AM EST
    your mother like what you are doing? ;-)

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:16:41 AM EST
    My mother loves me no matter what but, truth be told, she is a Rpeublican.

    Hah! (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:18:38 AM EST
    So that's where the impatience with bullsh*t comes from?

    Ok if I repost your post (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:22:53 AM EST
    Use what you wish (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:30:25 AM EST
    Done. (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:38:12 AM EST
    There sure are enough people, (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Edger on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:55:09 PM EST
    afraid enough of what you have to say and afraid enough that you might influence people, to come chasing you down to try to disrupt your message while they get repeatedly bashed, considering you're not a leader.



    There has got to be paychecks involved (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:01:44 AM EST
    in some of that!  Someone is making out and all I know is it isn't me.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:03:06 AM EST
    If you get one can I see what they look like?

    If there is one for being on his side, I mean. :-) (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:04:02 AM EST
    Immediately! (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:09:17 AM EST
    I have one of those fax/scanner things.  The Benedryl is getting fun so I had better go fluff my pillows before Jim comes back to tell me all of my mistakes and I end up sorry.  My son was going on last week about how his mom is so wise.  Then he went on to tell me that one time when I drank too much wine and I argued with my husband that I sounded really stupid.  He looked at me really sad and said, "Usually mom you make dad look dumb but you really looked dumb that time and dad looked really smart."  

    It's probably just (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:10:45 AM EST
    a lump sum payout, at the end of the game.

    Nasty (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:54:48 AM EST
    Jeralyn posts regularly, and her posts are as good as ever.

    Read what you want, but obvioulsy you find Jeralyn uninteresting as well because nothing is stopping you from reading her and skipping BTD.

    And nothing is stopping you from articulating your differences with BTD and Edger.

    Just saying your reason for parting ways seems a bit dishonest at worst and a half truth at best.  

    I still read Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:57:35 AM EST
    On occasion, but I do find the plethora of posts from BTD more than annoying, and his fellators more annoying.

    I read Jeralyn on Huffpost as well when Arianna has her posted there.

    I don't recall liking or disliking you Squeaky so I have no insult.

    As for Edger, small minds need other other small minds to help them understand their beliefs.....


    This sounds like unresolved issues (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:49:30 PM EST
    of fellatio envy.

    IF... (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:20:09 AM EST
    If I could make you laugh, or ease your mind, I would - and I'd feel better, too.

    I'm not giving up. I hope you won't, either.

    The power of peace lies within each of us.
    --Willy Whitefeather

    JL (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:00:29 PM EST
    If I had any respect left for you your insults might have some effect.

    As it is, they say more about you than about me.

    NO! (1.00 / 3) (#1)
    by talex on Tue May 22, 2007 at 06:55:54 PM EST
    You can't be right unless you have accomplished something tangible.

    You haven't.

    You can't be partly right unless people who matter actually listen to you.

    They don't.

    You can't be right just because you say so.

    It means nothing but you pumping yourself up.

    Three strikes - You're Not Right!

    Um: (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by andgarden on Tue May 22, 2007 at 06:58:35 PM EST
    You can't be right unless you have accomplished something tangible.
    </stops reading>

    Can;t you take this piece (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:00:58 PM EST
    back to daily kos and tie him down over there?

    Heh. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:04:22 PM EST
    I truly don't (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by taylormattd on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:06:59 PM EST
    fathom why talex continues to post here. Just strange.

    Miss Devore, on the other hand, I'm not surprised by. She has never been able to stay away from BTD.


    I think he just wants a response. (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:20:51 PM EST
    Of any kind. Like Miss Devore?

    Ha (1.00 / 1) (#4)
    by talex on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:02:49 PM EST
    Stopped reading huh?

    Why didn't doing something tangible apply to you either? - LOL


    Parallels (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by manys on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:45:40 PM EST
    Kind of like how you refrain from engaging any replies with anything but pithy one-liners.

    Seriously (1.00 / 1) (#39)
    by talex on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:12:32 PM EST
    if you read what I was responding to what more could I say?

    The less you say the better (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:16:31 PM EST
    and much better if you say it at dkos.

    Your (1.00 / 1) (#79)
    by talex on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:50:33 AM EST
    weakness is showing.

    List the "tangibles" (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Edger on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:23:51 PM EST
    you've accomplished, talex. We've been asking you for them for a couple of weeks, and so far you've produced no tangible answers to those requests either.

    How close are you now to that veto-proof majority? Hard numbers or hard percentages will do.


    Well, he does write $tupid$hit in cyberspace (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:06:11 PM EST
    and it keeps showing up at my house.  He allowed caving Democrats to also cling to that one lone voice out there that   sniff sniff....baby tear lifted away by a shaking hand     Understands

    Whatever (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:50:53 PM EST
    I like em all in my tent (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:17:16 PM EST
    so I can yell at em.

    As for what next, see my previous post.

    A complete Idiot (none / 0) (#19)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue May 22, 2007 at 08:25:45 PM EST
    thinks he "forced" Democrats to run against the Iraq war.

    Of course the corollary is that you can't "force" democrats who don't already support defunding to start.

    Hopefully enough will realize now (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Edger on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:58:09 PM EST
    that trying to cut a deal with Bush is like trying to cut a deal with Ted Bundy. Not worth the paper it's written on even if you think you get one.

    Absolutely ruthless hardball is the only way to play with a psychotic.

    He has to be told what the deal is, not negotiated with.


    Double Whatever.......yawn (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:51:36 PM EST
    wondering how many BlueDogs (none / 0) (#73)
    by annefrank on Wed May 23, 2007 at 05:45:56 AM EST
    live in military districts where the MIC must be maintained to continue jobs and our booming economy.

    Congratulations (none / 0) (#74)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:02:30 AM EST
    On a blog with 20k hits, you have 4 followers.  You are the Katie Couric of blogs, albeit far less cogent and entertaining.

    It is too bad really, this used to be a great site and it has morphed into what feels like a junior high myspace blog.

    Jeralyn.  Ask Peaches and PPJ if they would contribute to the blog. They are far less arrogant and far more talented.

    I will check back in on occasion to say hello to my old friends, as PPJ,Patrick, Kdog, SUO, Dick, Peaches, et al are great for varying opinions.

    I think the posts here speak for themselves, BTD is unreadable and a bore.

    You obviously don't read (none / 0) (#75)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:44:37 AM EST
    or pay attention as much as you used to at least pretend to, JL. You never used to jam you whole leg in your mouth like that - usually it was just your foot -  and you made sense fairly often - more often than not, in fact.

    What happened?


    You've been missed J.... (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:45:56 AM EST
    I for one certainly your miss your take on things.

    Join us on a thread that discusses an issue, instead of this political football game sh*t.  It bores me too.


    I must take exception (none / 0) (#129)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:45:14 PM EST
    you object to discussion of the iossue of ending the Iraq War?

    And you label yourself as the non-Junior High contingent?

    I get it, you want to be able to sound smart to someone.

    Well, this comment is a bad start for that.


    Actually... (none / 0) (#135)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 04:57:41 PM EST
    I like talking about the issue of ending the occupation Iraq. I've made clear the only way I think it is possible to achieve that goal.  

    I hope you're right and the "netroots" in the "blogspehere" can convince Congress to do it....but I'm afraid there will be US soldiers in Iraq until the day I die absent mass civil disobedience, or possibly a third party winning significant seats in congress.  


    I agree Jonathon (none / 0) (#81)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:15:57 AM EST
    the dynamics of TL have changed since BTD's arrival. I miss your take on the issues. You were always a voice of moderation. I miss Patrick's input as well.  

    If I can offer any advice it is to skip over the idiocy and foolishness, because as you imply, it has grown boring. There are still quality discussions happening here, although it is impossible to keep the voices of idiocy from interjecting at times.

    Anyway, it would be nice to hear more from ya. How is life? The family? I hope everything is well.


    Kdog Peaches etal (none / 0) (#91)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:09:19 PM EST
    Everything is fine, kids are great with a couple of minor health issues.  I like the diaries (i read peaches') and miss the dialogue as well.  In any event, I will check in now and again to say hey and kdog, i am in NY once a month, we should meet for a slice a pie sometime......

    I'd like that bro..... (none / 0) (#95)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:23:20 PM EST
    So many people on here I'd love to meet one day.  

    Say the word and I'll be there bro.


    Missing a few people OT (none / 0) (#97)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:32:58 PM EST
    Yeah, I liked to see Patrick's comments, too. And, as much as we disagreed about...well, everything, whatever happened to soccerdad?

    Before your time... (none / 0) (#101)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:47:00 PM EST
    I think Gabe, but the long-timers will remember.

    What happened to Fred Dawes?


    Re: SoccerDad (none / 0) (#104)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:09:15 PM EST
    My hope is that he took Kdog's advice and grabbed a pitchfork.

    Fred Dawes? So many names. Is he the one that would come up with these really far out there comments that made little sense?

    I wonder about a few I used to get heated up over with. BB, Pigwiggle, and there was one called Steel something or other. I was a little like Soccerdad back in the day and could get worked up over some things said from opposing perspectives. It took perspectives from Jlv, Sarc, Patrick and even the humor and good natured side of Jim to get me to broaden my horizons and work harder to see things from the perspective of viewpoints like yours, Gabe. I suppose you can thank them for softening me up. Otherwise, I might sound something like Edger at times.


    Soccerdad (none / 0) (#106)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:23:50 PM EST
    Writes on the leftcoaster. I think it is the same as the one who commented here.

    I too..... (none / 0) (#107)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:25:07 PM EST
    was the same way, guilty of a little too much "groupthink", so to speak.

    Yeah...Fred Dawes was a little out there, warning about the coming "new world order".  A man after me own heart:)  

    Me and BB were supposed to start the "common sense" party, but we couldn't agree on the definition of "common sense".

    Pigwiggle was another good one....made you think.


    FredDaws (none / 0) (#108)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:31:01 PM EST
    One of my favs. A true poet.

    BTW kdog, you have much more revolutionary power outside of a cage. The pitchfork posse would just give Haliburton another plumb contract. We are not there yet.

    And you have not compromised  nor lost your senses.


    Yeah squeaky.... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:52:25 PM EST
    the pitchfork posse has to be a million strong, otherwise it won't work.

    Patrick and I agreed once (none / 0) (#124)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:05:18 PM EST
    And that was to hate each other without using insults.  Truth be told, I like him, he doesn't hold back or try to triangulate.......

    It is nice to see all my faves on this thread.  I am serious.  I think Peaches should lead the left and PPJ lead the right so I can disagree with both of them and prove how wrong i really am.

    It is about varying opinions on the left and the right and what we are not getting is good debate amongst the left and center.  I like to hear all the opinions even though PPJ irks me, I love him too.  What is funny is that Kdog and SUO are far apart yet I find myself constantly agreeing with both of them and that is what made this site so intriguing to me.

    Pigwiggle.  There is a blast from the past, i liked him/her but sometimes i got way lost in the argument as I have on occasion with Peaches.  

    For those of you old timers, Cliff has not been around in a long time.........

    Kdog, my personal email addy is jlvngstn@yahoo.com  I should be in town again in June.  I try to plan day trips so i can be home at night with the kids so if we can have a slice of pie during the day that would be awesome...


    Cool... (none / 0) (#136)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 05:01:57 PM EST
    I'll drop you a note and we'll sort it out.  Mine is bettercheck498@hotmail.com

    Good call J...looking forward to it.


    Cliff said he (none / 0) (#151)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 03:06:08 PM EST
    got tired of the Bush Bad all the time.. Plus his job, I think, started limiting his blog time.

    Not all of us can rich ROF's.


    Hey there Jl (none / 0) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:34:16 PM EST
    I stopped in because I saw Peaches' name under recent comments and I find you're still with us!

    Good stuff above. You speak the truth. Wish you were here more. Patrick too. Don't be a stranger.


    This will stick with me (none / 0) (#102)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:55:35 PM EST
    this used to be a great site and it has morphed into what feels like a junior high myspace blog.
    Right on.

    Sad but true (none / 0) (#125)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:06:32 PM EST
    Thanks SUO, but do me one big favor.  Vote Democratic.....lol

    than the Reps, but there's no better option out there...

    Ah well, let us know how your pizza with kdog works out, sounds like good times!


    Heh (none / 0) (#128)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:42:44 PM EST
    Nice to hear form you. I can't say I remember you but it is nice to hear from you just the same.

    that would be from. (none / 0) (#132)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:58:34 PM EST
    I overstated your fan club, it appears that it is only up to 3 not 4.....

    I can see why peaches (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 04:19:21 PM EST
    loves you so. Your maturity, civility and deeply substantive comments are a marvel.

    Thanks for stopping by.


    Its really simple, BTD (none / 0) (#134)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 04:28:47 PM EST
    You Reap what you sow in life. I think that this idiom holds true in the virtual world as well.

    Sweet peaches (none / 0) (#142)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:32:22 PM EST
    Hypocrisy doe snot become you

    You are reaping what YOU sowed.

    You have been sanctimonious about civility. ?And you hypocritically praise this commenter.

    You have been called out - in essence reaping what YOU sowed.


    And Just like your lapdog (none / 0) (#144)
    by Peaches on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:11:46 AM EST
    you respond by sticking out your tongue and saying "I'm made of rubber your made of Glue." Yes, You're a child and a silly one at that.

    My praise for Jonathon has nothing to do with you. I respect him not for his opinion of you (although that certainly solidifies my respect for him) but for his integrity he has shown in the past before you came and sullied TL with your pithy nonsense.


    Heh (none / 0) (#145)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:14:57 AM EST
    See, the hypocrisy is what amuses me.

    This thread provides the most childish and non-substantive comments I have yet seen here. And it is all from you and those who you admire.

    Clearly then, there was nothing to your "concern" about civility and substantiveness.

    But you and I always knew that, didn't we peaches?


    As I said (none / 0) (#146)
    by Peaches on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:20:34 AM EST
    You reap what you sow, Big Tent.

    You never heeded anyones call for civility unless Jeralyn forced it upon you. And then you work around the edges and dismiss criticism with childish insults of "silly" and "ridiculous."

    Once in a while someone comes here and calls you on it. This time it was an old friend and I merely gave him my blessing.

    You and your Lapdog took offense. Sorry, but my loyalties for my friends run deeper than my worries for the feeling of people I don't respect. The same holds true for your lapdog and you.

    We don't need each others respect so we can move on now.


    It says quite a bit about (none / 0) (#83)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:52:32 AM EST
    why society is in the shape it's in and why things like the Iraq debacle happen and seemingly cannot be ended when people find opposing it to be boring or idiotic.

    It reminds me of the guy who drops his keys one night inside his car. But his interior light is burned out and he can't see anything inside the car.

    He can't see. So he walks down the street to the nearest streetlamp, and starts looking around on the ground under the light.

    A stranger happens by and asks him what he's doing. He says "I lost my car keys, and I'm looking for them".

    Stranger asks "Where did you lose them?" Guy says "Inside the car, but my interior light is burned out, so I'm looking out here where I can see."

    Edger.... (none / 0) (#88)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:05:52 PM EST
    you guys aren't opposing anything, and by oppose I mean tangible "real" opposition, like when 2 linemen collide on the football field.  The best way I can describe this brand of "opposition" is masterbation.  It feels good to do it, but nobody gets pregnant...so to speak.  

    There is but one way to oppose this occupation in the "real"...and I've said it a hundred times.  It involves torches, pitchforks, and great personal sacrifice no one is willing to make.  That's why we're in the shape we are in, occupying a foreign country...no desire to sacrifice, nothing to lose for most of us.  It's not because me, JLV, and Peaches are bored with political games meant to distract and appease.

    I love your passion bro, but it's not furthering your goals in the least. Grab a million friends and hit the street or get used to it like I have. Those are your options my friend.


    kdog (none / 0) (#92)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:12:33 PM EST
    I like you, but you too are missing the point.

    Caving is not the answer. Trying to change attitudes is one.

    Obviously a nerve has been hit or you guys wouldn't be so opposed to people expressing their opposition.

    "Car keys".


    Anyway. (none / 0) (#93)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:15:00 PM EST
    That's all from me on this. Some people continue, others cave, and for some reason known only to them, want everyone else to cave. Some minds cannot be changed.

    Not caving.... (none / 0) (#99)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:38:39 PM EST
    I don't want you to cave...I just hate seeing a nice guy waste his time and efforts trying to tell congress what to do.  In case you haven't noticed, they listen to the guys with money and power...not slobs like us.

    We will leave Iraq when money and power want us to leave, or when the people grab pitchforks.  Not a day sooner.  I'm too selfish to grab a pitchfork right now...if and when the govt. drafts my little brother or nephew to go to Iraq, then I'll grab a pitchfork.


    You can only change one attitude (none / 0) (#94)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:18:33 PM EST
    and that is the point.

    The rest is discussion and the goal of discussion is to learn. You stopped discussing a long time ago and decided to change every one's attitude to fit your own. This is boring, and what makes this idiocy is that you are merely a parrot of other's ideas as your use of an ages-old joke about the car keys demonstrates.



    Your comment (none / 0) (#96)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:30:36 PM EST
    negates your own comment, Peaches.

    Ooookayyyy, then (1.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:40:19 PM EST
    You've enlightened me once more.

    KDOG, Jonathon, you are both murderers and complicit with the neocons who started this war. Change your attitude to Edger's as I have and we can all follow BTD to the promised land.

    Come on, MURDERERS!!!


    That's pitiful, peaches. (none / 0) (#103)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:59:57 PM EST
    Figured it out, finally, huh? (none / 0) (#105)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:15:35 PM EST
    What took you so long?

    It is pitiful. (none / 0) (#109)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:38:02 PM EST
    It has been for a long time.

    It wouldn't be if people like yourself didn't think of this as an intellectual exercise only and didn't hide from the realization that the whole society, all of us, are complicit in the murder going on not only in Iraq, but in many places around the world to enable you to remain comfortable enough and insulated enough to dismiss it as only a boring or idiotic intellectual exercise, that, when it gets boring or is not as entertaining as, say a good TV show, or a mindless pap magazine, should be dismissed as unworthy of attention simply because you are frustrated and unable to think of anything effectual you can do.

    It's a common problem. Too widespread, IMO.

    The One-Sided Pursuit Of Happiness
    Resurrecting Hope: William Blum interviewed:

    Absolutely convinced we possess the right to pursue our "happiness" and "security", regardless of the cost to the Earth and the rest of its sentient inhabitants, we US Americans are in a race to hoard the most toys, to eat the most food, to have the most orgasms, to be the best looking, and to be the biggest winners as we engage in a repugnant orgy of narcissistic and gluttonous hedonism.

    Contrary to the false consciousness bestowed upon us by a horde of incredibly adept propagandists who "dutifully" man the bulwarks of exploitative capitalism, we are not "benevolent liberators" or "peace makers". We wage war perpetually, strip the world bare like a swarm of locusts, and give virtually nothing in return. Ensuring our "happiness" and "security" extracts a tremendous price from the rest of the Earth.

    Some people oppose the Iraq occupation, and pre-emptive war in general, in spite of the tremendous frustration they face and even in the knowledge that they are unlikely to ever reach their goal, because they feel it to be the right thing to do.

    Others ridicule them. That too, is pitiful.

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
    -- Gandhi

    Ghandi went to jail.... (none / 0) (#110)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:51:00 PM EST
    did he not?  Mandela went to jail.  MLK went to jail.  Thoreau went to jail.  You've got a movement when you're willing to go to jail.  Posting on a blog is not a worthy substitute.

    I  readily admit I am a piker because I don't wanna go to jail, at least by myself.  Been there, it sucks. The men I listed above are better men than me. When a million people are willing to go to jail, then we've got something.

    Nobody is ridiculing your goals, just the tactics.


    I'm willing to go to jail (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:51:28 PM EST
    when are we going ;)?  I tried once really hard too and "W" didn't come through with the goods.

    No one is forcing you to read anyhing I say. (none / 0) (#113)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:14:14 PM EST
    If thats how you feel.... (none / 0) (#117)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:28:12 PM EST
    I'm sorry to hear that.

    I said my piece....you are free to disagree.

    Besides, I hope I'm wrong and you get Congress' help in ending the occupation...


    There doesn't appear to be any point. (none / 0) (#120)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:42:59 PM EST
    You've made it clear that you would rather I didn't write. Others have made the opposite clear or I would not be. You don't have to read it. You can skip over it if it bothers you.

    I want you to write.... (4.00 / 1) (#137)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 05:12:15 PM EST
    I want to learn about you from your comments like when you first started posting. Learn your views on the world, compare them to mine....not this political gamesmanship self-important bullsh*t.  

    I'm not trying to slam you, sorry if it came off harsh....Do your thing brother.  



    I liked your comment here, kdog. (none / 0) (#143)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 08:33:45 PM EST
    I used the rating and rated it 4 because I agreed with most of what you said. I have a different view of what you called political gamesmanship. For me it is not self-important bullsh*t or gamesmanship, but only an instance of a more general thing - life, or society, it's meaning, purpose, and goals. A sort of microcosm of how people deal with each other.

    There is in some ways some strong convergence between what Big Tent is trying to accomplish politically and what I would like to see human societies be able to accomplish. His idea is so far the only one I have seen that I think would have any chance of ending a specific instance of larger issues and by doing so make room for much good to be accomplished, so I try to help spread the meme because I think it is a good and laudable one. We probably don't have the same ultimate goals in mind, but there is commonality of purpose, I think, at least for that smaller specific instance. Some people see my support of what he is doing as sucking up, but they see only the surface. I am not overly concerned with their opinions of me personally so I leave them to their ignorance, whether it is wilful or not, rather than argue with them.

    I know you weren't slamming me, but I think you misunderstand why I have been concentrating on the topic of the Iraq occupation. What I've said here is rather general but I hope it helps to clarify.

    I have to go out now, and I have a busy couple of days ahead, but I'll try to talk more with you about whom I am and what I come here for.

    Thanks for being you.

    For now maybe this will help to explain - I want the occupation ended as soon as possible so that the fewest Americans and Iraqis die. Preferably none. Period. I also see the occupation as a specific instance of the more general doctrine of preemptive war - really imperialist hegemony - that the neocons and rethugs want to pursue. I want the specific instance ended and the mindset behind the general doctrine made politically and socially unacceptable and people who hold that mindset treated as pariahs, so that no matter which party is elected it will not happen again.

    I have no illusions that that goal will ever be reached, but I feel like pushing towards it is something that makes sense to do.

    The mindset is too damaging to people and, IMO, holds society back as much if not more than the churches actions that caused the dark ages. I'd rather not see another dark ages start.

    If I can say I believe in anything this is probably the handiest thing that is closest to it: The Inevitable Triumph of Progressive Thought

    I'm a little bit of a romantic, I guess.


    kdog (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:29:50 PM EST
    Those leaders went to prison after they had written tons of stuff and were already famous and leaders.

    For you, me or Edger to go to jail at this point would be a waste of time. Obviously you understand that.

    It all starts from the bottom and moves up. Those leaders are an inspiration but not equal to us as far as power goes, at this point anyway. The saying used to be get on the street and be counted. I am not sure that is effective these days. I have seen no effect from the many peace marches I have been in.

    The blogosphere seems like it has potential to effect change, though.

    If writing was just masturbation, then many of your heros would never have risen to be great leaders.


    Writing is most certainly not masterbation... (none / 0) (#138)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 05:20:57 PM EST
    squeaky, you know me better than that friend. In fact, we could all use a re-read of Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience".  

    imo, writing about the political manueverings of "netroots" in their attempt to lobby/influence Congress is kinda masturbatory.  I'm sorry, just this knucklehead's opinion.

    Of course, me you and edger getting locked up accomplishes nothing.  Surrounding the white house with 1 million pitchforked countrymen would do wonders....

    I think you have more faith in an internet-based movement...I still see the street as the only way.  The anti-Iraq war protests haven't worked because everybody forgot their pitchfork, and everybody goes home at sundown.


    I Know (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 05:35:33 PM EST
    That you like reading. My poorly written point was that the internet is the contemporary breeding ground and platform for future Thoreaus and Ghandis.

    It has big potential. Violence never could work even with a million. It would only feed the enemy.

    It is a big question today. What is the most effective way to affect change? Until the blogosphere proves useless, I think it is the best shot we have.


    Agree to disagree.... (none / 0) (#140)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 05:44:37 PM EST
    then bro.  I'd say jail is still the best breeding ground for a Ghandi of today, unfortunately.

    One quick clarification, I'm not advocating violence, the pitchforks are for effect.  It's the scare and the disruption....


    Agreed to not agree (none / 0) (#141)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 06:05:46 PM EST
    A Wise Man once told me that if you are going to threaten you better be prepared to carry out the threat. So pitchforks in hand is a great picture to imagine but in real life it amounts to violence. Especially after the troops start shooting.

    So now you're a victim (none / 0) (#111)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:51:13 PM EST
    like Gandhi? And who are your tormentors? Us? Bush? Jim? The Dems? Pelosi? Tester? Dkos? the NetRoots?

    I really do pity you. So much passion and so little idea of what to do with it. Too busy dividing the world between friends and foes and the foes got you outnumbered. You are lashing out in every direction not even caring what your target is as long as you know they disagree with you. And the result is that over time no one cares any longer enough to even ridicule you. You have just become a non-entity here that people with good sense have enough sense to ignore.

    You really do have no idea what you do or what you stand for, do you?



    Now you again are reduced to just trolling (none / 0) (#114)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:15:34 PM EST
    for a response. Any response will do, that is clear. Good luck.

    You're right (none / 0) (#115)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:18:00 PM EST
    I have violated my own vow to cease responding to you. The only reason I am here was to say hello to an old friend. You happened to be in the way.

    So long.


    Being in the way (none / 0) (#116)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:27:25 PM EST
    is one of my purposes.

    Apart from that, what I said earlier to JL applies for you as well, peaches. If I had any respect left for you your trolling attempts to get a rise out of me might have some effect.

    But since that is all you have to offer, I have none left, so they don't.



    You can have the last word. (none / 0) (#119)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:34:49 PM EST
    Purpose (none / 0) (#123)
    by Peaches on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:00:37 PM EST
    It is sad that you think you have a purpose here. I find the thought of anyone sitting at a keyboard and writing their thoughts online and thinking they have a purpose to be troubling.

    I'm old-fashioned. I don't take to this technology. If my terminal was not hooked up to the internet at work, I would not be here.

    When I write, I write at home and my purpose does not need validation. When I blog on the internet, it is not out of purpose - but boredom. I do read interesting commentary and am always thankful for those who can broaden my horizons. But, blogging to change the world or to influence policy? I suppose it is possible. But, we haven't seen it yet.

    If you find purpose in this, I suppose I'll wish you luck. But, I will also pity you - and not in ridicule, but in genuine pity or sadness.


    Well (none / 0) (#147)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:25:14 AM EST
    I think everyone has their own measruing stick for such things but to proclaim themseleves the adults and claomor for civility while putting on the display they did in this thread proves what I have alwasys siad about peaches in particular - that there is no there there.

    No substance.

    No principle.

    Just rank hypocrisy and nastiness.

    I am nasty myself and have never complained about getting it back. But I do write about issues FWIW.

    Peaches has mostly written about how mean everyone is.

    But these little interludes are wonderful for exposing the hypocrisy of it all.

    JLivingston is someone I do not remember.

    KDog is someone I don't really understand and have a hard time understanding his alliance with these folks as he seems to be pushing for armed revolution.

    When I came to TL there was little in the way of the extreme engagement in politics that I do. It is a change. Jeralyn asked me to post here.

    The thing that I do not understand is why skipping my posts is so difficult?


    In the name of 'tolerance' (none / 0) (#148)
    by Edger on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:30:22 AM EST
    some would rather you weren't posting here.

    You're not the only one.... (none / 0) (#149)
    by kdog on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:53:06 AM EST
    If i had a nickel evertime somebody said that.

    To clarify, I'm not advocating violent revolution....I guess you could say I'm advocating put up or shut up, and simply making the point that violent revolution, or the threat of it, is all that will end the Iraq occupation...regardless of what crooked party controls congress.


    IOW, (none / 0) (#150)
    by Peaches on Thu May 24, 2007 at 09:01:13 AM EST
    When the oil is either secure or all used up, we will no longer be interested in Iraq.

    I don't mind skipping you BTD, I don't even mind reading your threads and opinions. JLV was right on when he said that the comment portions of your threads seem like a junior high Myspace.com thread. I have made it a habit of stying away, in case you haven't noticed.

    My moniker is not because I think of myself as sweet. Exactly the opposite. "Four Women" by Nina Simone. Listen to it - don't google the lyrics. Anyone who knows Nina knows you have to hear her sing.

    I will repeat. I came to this thread to say hello to an old friend. That was my intention. My support for him offends you. I'm sorry, but I still support and agree with my friend.


    I also love it (none / 0) (#87)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:04:51 PM EST
    when you take a shot and respond with "it becomes you" as your response.  Let me speak your language, like 14-15 years old....

    "You can dish it but you can't take it." waaaaa

    You're on a roll. Keep going. (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Edger on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:08:54 PM EST
    You can get more frustrated than that, can't you?

    This is the mature discourse (none / 0) (#130)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:46:59 PM EST
    we we eager to get to when we graduated junior high.

    Peaches, I see your point.

    My gawd.