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Atlanta police kill 92 year old woman in drug raid; flawed SCOTUS policy?

In Northeast Atlanta, near Georgia Tech, police made a drug buy from a house and came back with a search warrant, raiding the house. They shot dead a 92 year old woman who had a gun defending her house. The Atlanta police involved seemed, to me, particularly cavalier about the entire matter. "'This seems like another tragedy involving drugs,' [ADA] Howard said."  

How much of this is attributable to flawed Supreme Court policy statements?

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has this story today: Questions surround fatal shooting of woman, 92:

As a northwest Atlanta neighborhood roiled over news that police had stormed a house and shot a 92-year-old woman, Atlanta police officials said Wednesday that cops had made a drug buy at the home and were returning to search the residence.

Three narcotics investigators were wounded in the Tuesday night shooting when the home's occupant emptied a six-shot revolver at them. Police identified the dead woman as Kathryn Johnston. The investigators were released from the hospital Wednesday morning.

Assistant Police Chief Alan Dreher said a suspect was not arrested after the buy. He said the suspect's identity is not known, nor is it known what relationship, if any, the suspect had to the dead woman.

Dreher, in a news conference on Wednesday, said the officers broke through a burglar bar entry door and then a wooden door. The police, whom Dreher called "experienced officers," were not wearing uniforms but had on vests with "police" on the front. He said they were inside the house when they were shot.

Investigator Gregg Junnier, 40, was shot three times, police said, in the side of the face, in the leg and in the center of his protective vest. Investigator Gary Smith, 38, was shot in the left leg, and Investigator Cary Bond, 38, was shot in the left arm.

"There is going to be a complete investigation," Dreher said. "There have been no predeterminations made in this case."

He said that "suspected narcotics" were found at the home at 933 Neal Street, an area west and north of the Georgia Dome known for drug activity.

Dreher handled details of the incident because Chief Richard J. Pennington was out of town for the Thanksgiving holiday.

Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard said the officers in such situations "use what they believe is their best intelligence" when entering a home to make an arrest. "They thought they could enter the home safely."

"This seems like another tragedy involving drugs," Howard said.

It was not immediately clear how long Johnston had lived at the Neal Street home. Neighbors said she lived alone. On Wednesday morning, they described her as a "good neighbor" and said she was "law abiding."

State Rep. "Able" Mable Thomas (D-Atlanta) called Johnston's death "unfortunate" and said a number of upset neighbors and other residents called to say neither Johnston nor her Neal Street home were in any way connected to illegal drug activity, as police suggested.

"The community does not want to digest that there was a 92-year-old woman in that house and all of a sudden there's a confrontation with police and now she's dead," said Thomas, whose district includes the neighborhood where the shooting occurred. "A confrontation with police and a 92-year-old woman don't go together."

Police say they followed proper procedures. Thomas hopes they did, but added: "When you see a 92-year-old being the victim of circumstances like this, we know something is going wrong."

Atlanta is CNN's hometown, but their story is much shorter, but includes a video of a relative of the deceased.

Since Justice Scalia and his cohorts on the U.S. Supreme Court decided last Term in Hudson v. Michigan that the exclusionary rule no longer applies to knock-and-announce, the police no longer have any incentive to comply with the law, although the Court said that there were other purported protections of citizens besides the exclusionary rule. (Mrs. Johnston and her family would certainly differ.)  And, if the police no longer have an incentive to comply with the law, it is only natural that innocent deaths will happen, both of officers and civilians. I wrote the brief in the knock-and-announce case of Wilson v. Arkansas and I wrote most of the brief in Richards v. Wisconsin. The government always talks about the need to not announce to protect officers from injury or death at the hands of criminals, but they never wrote in any brief that they were the slightest bit concerned with potential deaths of civilians or of police at the hands of innocent civilians.

Mr. Justice Scalia and those who voted with you, this death was encouraged by your holding.  I'm not going to the extreme of saying that this poor woman's death is "on your hands," but her death certainly points out that you did not know what you were talking about when you wrote Hudson and uncritically took all the "empirical evidence" and government arguments at face value, ignoring reality and common sense. In my fourteen years of intimate experience with the knock-and-announce rule since the suppression hearing in Wilson, I have seen the callousness of police and courts to the "right of the people to be secure" "from unreasonable searches and seizures."  

Please, just admit that you were wrong in uncritically accepting police arguments about their needs and ignoring citizen protections, and overrule Hudson so Mrs. Johnston will not have died in vain.

[also posted on www.FourthAmendment.com]

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    Excuse me - But You Miss Some Key Facts (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Constructive Feedback on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 07:34:21 PM EST
    Before we talk about the Supreme Court No Knock rule let is get some facts straight:

    1. Able Mable Thomas NO LONGER HOLDS ELECTIVE OFFICE.  She WAS a city council person.  She yielded her seat when she ran for council president about 3 years ago and lost.

    2. About 3 months ago I listened to Ms. Thomas on a radio show CALLING FOR STRONGER POLICE PRESENCE in these poor communities.  She made the case that while "Buckhead (WHITE FOLKS) is brimming with cops, these Poor, Black communities that she focuses upon are being run over by crime and DESERVE POLICE PROTECTION AS TAX PAYING CITIZENS".

    I called in and asked her "They need to be protected FROM WHOM?"

    So once again I thought it was ironic that the main person who will be first in line to THROW ROCKS at the cops was ASKING FOR MORE COPS into her community.

    1. THE CITY OF ATLANTA and FULTON COUNTY is governed by PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You don't have a Paeleo-Con Leadership structure.  The Mayor is a DEMOCRAT.  The police chief is a Democrat and formerly ran the New Orleans PD.  The District Attorney is a DEMOCRAT.

    2. The No Knock entry is IRRELEVANT.  THEY DID KNOCK BEFORE THEY ENTERED.  The concern was that evidence would be flushed down the toilet.

    Please note as well that this incident is happening in the CONTEXT of major issues with the PROGRESSIVE governments in metro Atlanta.  Just today the Atlanta PD shot ANOTHER individual who was running from them.

    Dekalb County, to the east of Atlanta which brags as being the second wealthiest majority Black county in the country has had 12 police involved shootings that has resulted in death this year.  Dekalb County is CYNTHIA MCKINNEY'S district.

    With respect to the title of your web site - you should note the fact that all of this is happening  within the context of GOVERNMENTS WHO ARE BEING OPERATED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE OTHERWISE FAVORABLE TO YOUR LEFTIST IDEOLOGY.

    All that I ask is that you be consistent (and accurate).

    Excuse Me AGAIN (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Constructive Feedback on Sat Nov 25, 2006 at 02:01:20 PM EST
    [quote]Not sure what is inconsistent here. With all your research did you determine the religious and political affiliation of the police who shot her? Or is it that they do not count as they were just following leftist ideologues' orders.

    Or is this the new wingnut mantra: Now that Democrats control congress everything is their fault. [/quote]

    1) I said NOTHING about the US Congress.  I stated that the CITY OF ATLANTA, who's police forces raided the house IS RAN BY PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS, not RIGHT WING hawks.

    In Atlanta and Dekalb County the NET RESULT ARE THE SAME regardless of the PROGRESSIVE LEADERSHIP - Black Folks Are Getting SHOT BY THE POLICE 12 in Dekalb are dead this year, a 92 year old woman in Atlanta and just last night another person was shot by Atlanta police after fleeing.

    http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2006/11/24/1125metapd.html

    2) Funny how THIS TIME we must inspect the views of the ACTUAL POLICE MEN WHO DID THE SHOOTING, rather than focus on the ADMINISTRATION'S POLICIES which ultimately determine what THESE OFFICERS DO.  Did you ask to do an inspection of the officers in NYC when Amadou Diallo was shot dead in his doorway?  They were patrolling the community as a result of POLICY implemented by the Mayor and the Police Administration. THE SAME IS THE CASE IN ATLANTA.

    How about YOU stopping your WING-NUT talking points and DEAL WITH THE FACTS and the TRUTH?

    Drivel + Drivel = Drivel^2 (1.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Constructive Feedback on Sat Nov 25, 2006 at 02:21:58 PM EST
    [quote]Who says? The cops who murdered a 92 year old woman defending her home?

    Do you really think a surprise raid on a 92 year old woman's home and battering down her door and shooting her to death is what anyone thinks of as 'STRONGER POLICE PRESENCE'!? [/quote]

    You make two points above that are ultimately IRRELEVANT to the MAIN POINT.

    1. The cops are bound to follow DEPARTMENTAL POLICY with respect to conducting these raids.  
    2. A COURT OF LAW reviewed the plans and APPROVE THE  SEARCH WARRANT based on the EVIDENCE PROVIDED.
    3. The only way we have to know that the KNOCK FIRST PROCEDURE was followed is FROM THE WORDS OF THE POLICE.
    (Should we bring a bullet proof vest clad ACLU lawyer along on every raid and allow them to call the shots?)

    YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT "INCREASED POLICE PRESENCE" IS MY VERY POINT OF CONTENTION WITH ABLE MABLE THOMAS.  She is the one calling for more police on the street.  THIS IN AND OF ITSELF is going to lead to more chances of confrontation.  I KNEW THAT SHE WOULD BE THE FIRST IN LINE PROTESTING THE POLICE ACTION, forgetting that she called them in.

    MAYBE THE SOLUTION IS NOT A POLICE BASED SOLUTION?
    Maybe it is a solution based on engaging all of the residents in the community and directly confronting those who are selling and purchasing drugs - prior to the police coming in.

    It is clear to me that the LEFT IS CLUELESS on these type of issues INSIDE of the community.

    If there is no RIGHT WING BOOGIE MAN to chase after your guys are eunuchs.

    LEFTISTS RUN THE CITY OF ATLANTA - MANAGE THESE LEADERS IF YOU WANT CHANGE.

    You took down the version (none / 0) (#1)
    by aw on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 04:04:16 PM EST
    of this post that contained a really excellent comment by SeeEmDee.

    Waiting (none / 0) (#3)
    by Discovery on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 04:40:38 PM EST
    Talkleft - It may look close on a Google map - but this address, 1.3 street miles away, in city terms, is not close to Georgia Tech - literally or figuratively. Downtown Atlanta, where the CNN center overlooks Centennial Park, is closer to Georgia Tech than this neighborhood and still has three subway stops in-between - and is worlds apart from downtown.  

    I don't know if the reference to Georgia Tech is because you aren't familiar with the area or to soften this neighborhood - but a thirty to forty minute walk through the city, across those rail road tracks, through the warehouse district and into those neighborhoods would never be described as close to Georgia Tech.  

    On Topic - A woman shoots three officers with five bullets after they are screaming "police - police" and enter the home with an arrest warrant just hours after buying drugs from the house in a REALLY bad neighborhood.  Age is irrelevant when your being shot at.  Just because the drug dealers grandmother is home with a loaded weapon doesn't stop making the home a crack home. No one is innocent sitting in a drug dealers house - hours after a drug deal.  The cops didn't remove her innocence, the drug dealers did.  

    The problem is we arguing how to enter the home after a crime - the second time.  The problem is that the cops have to go back to the court house to get a warrant in order to reenter the house to arrest the dealers and confiscate the drugs when they broke the law the first time.

    I'm not sure what the alternative is you're arguing - for the police to sit outside on the front porch and wait for the dealers to come home?  


    Cops are fascists (none / 0) (#13)
    by rocks911 on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 09:57:36 AM EST
    Plain and simple, they've got the power.

    My sister called the police because she was concerned about her son's schizophrenic behavior. The police entered the house and explained that they were going to take him into custody.

    My sister was concerned with the methods the police were talking about using and asked them to please leave the house. They said because they were called they had no alternative and had to act.

    The police drew their weapons and approached his closed and locked bedroom door. My sister was begging the cops to reconsider, she knew this was not the best way to handle the situation, he was after all a paranoid schizophrenic and when he had episodes like this he was convinced that "they are coming to get me".

    The police ushered my sister to another part of the house.

    within a matter of minutes they forced the door and shot him dead in the hall a few feet from his bedroom door.

    The house and immediate area suddenly became a crime investigation scene and everyone had to leave. The police taped off the area to include up to one house away in every direction and barred entrance to anyone. They "investigated" for about six hours.

    My brother and I had to quickly clean up the scene so his wife wouldn't have to witness the slaughterhouse that the police created.

    I remember thinking that what they did was just not right and that I should probably go get my camera and take some pictures. But then it occured to me that the police probably had hundreds of pictures, so we went ahead with the clean up.

    The police do have hundreds of pictures but will not release them nor anything else to do with the incident, nothing, zero, zilch will they offer about that evening.

    I could go on but the point is that they have the ultimate power. They appear, destabilize the situation, kill people, investigate their own killing and release nothing. Christ I gotta think that organized criminals are jealous.

    Jack-booted fascist thugs, that's what cops are.  

    You seem to take their word for quite a bit, I no longer believe a thing they have to say, they are liars.

    I'm sure you'll think that this is an over generalization derived from personal tradegy, but it's not. I've started to pay attention and it's scary. We live in a police state.

    Cops are criminals. Stay the hell out of peoples homes.

    Parent

    Let's hear it for Death... (none / 0) (#4)
    by desertswine on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 04:43:57 PM EST
    There's always somebody around to justify killing.

    She's the victim of insane drug policy and cops out of control.

    Every time they (none / 0) (#5)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 05:05:02 PM EST
    f**k up they blame it on drugs.

    only the cops word ... (none / 0) (#6)
    by Sailor on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 05:29:19 PM EST
    for these statements:
    A woman shoots three officers with five bullets after they are screaming "police - police" and enter the home with an arrest warrant just hours after buying drugs from the house in a REALLY bad neighborhood.
    The spoke cop didn't know the name of the person on the warrant, but he already knew the shoot was justified!? They wouldn't even say what drugs they bought or were looking for on the warrant. I call BS and bet the cops made up a cover story after murdering this 92 yr old woman.

    'Oooh, bad neighborhood' gives cops a right to do this? The majority of folks in 'bad neighborhoods' are good people.

    Knock and announce is garbage (none / 0) (#7)
    by bau996 on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 06:12:48 PM EST
    I agree with you that the exclusionary rule should apply to knock and announce cases.  Waiting 5 seconds after knockin and announcing and then storming the house is likely to lead to exactly what happenned in Atlanta yesterday.

    I think this woman was a drug dealer.  I also think this woman was fully justified in blowing away the cops if they just busted in her door storming the place.  Knock and announce is a ridiculouse policy that does not exist in practical reality.  Imagine if the police had the wrong house and the woman blasted them?  Then it would be a very different story indeed.  It is totally reasonable to think that an intruder is trying to unlawfully break into your house and do harm when someone knocks, says "Open Up! Police!" and then busts through your door within 5 seconds.

    I am not sure what the solution is, because I do see the other side.  We don't want a ridiculous policy that requires the poilice to wait so long that the suspect can flush all the evidence away.  However, I don't think knock and announce is the right answer either.  There must be some policy in between that makes sense and protects all parties involved.

    Anyone? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Joe Bob on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 06:39:46 PM EST
    Is anyone else here having a hard time wrapping their mind around this: 92-year-old woman with an old 6-shot revolver manages to land 5 out of 6 shots, wounding three officers in the process?

    Two possibilities: 1)Grandmama got a marksmanship badge when she was in the Marines. 2)Grandmama got 1 or 2 lucky shots at most and the rest of the wounds are from the police shooting each other.

    Kidding aside, I think this whole episode is lunacy. Police made a drug buy at the house. Accepting that fact, who decided that the appropriate response is to bust in and conduct an armed raid? Where is the proportionality in the law enforcement response?

    Granny Gunn (none / 0) (#10)
    by Mango on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 07:45:51 AM EST
    I'm having a hard time understanding how she got those shots off.  I wonder what caliber handgun she had.  I wonder what kind of mental gyrations those cops will go through over the years about having killed a 92-year old woman, regardless of the fact that she was shooting at them.  Doesn't exactly make you feel like Rambo.  And it was in her home, after all.  And did she have her hearing aid in to hear them shouting "Police"?  And how loud did they really shout it anyway?

    I must admit, I can't suppress a chuckle over the cops getting shot up by Granny.  I hope an investigative reporter does a close look at the whole story.

    Parent

    Or (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 09:44:51 AM EST
    She had the same magic bullets as Oswald.

    Parent
    only the cops word (none / 0) (#9)
    by Sailor on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:09:33 PM EST
    Imagine if the police had the wrong house and the woman blasted them?
    it happens, has happened, will happen. See previous TL subjects on this.

    Police made a drug buy at the house.
    We only have the cops' word for that. And the spokes cop says he doesn't know who or what the buy was about ... but he knows it was justified.

    Already the cops story is changing. First it was 'they knocked', now the story is  officers returned in the evening to execute a "no knock" warrant.

    And again we read that they battered the door in but now the spokes cops saysthey announced themselves after they opened the door but before entering(same link).

    Once again, I call BS. And the real joke is the headline of the story I linked to "Atlanta Police Investigate Woman's Death in Shootout"

    The police can't be trusted to tell the truth, and they can't be trusted to investigate themselves.

    Is georgia (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jen M on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 09:37:34 AM EST
    one of the states passing those looser self and home defense laws?

    I smell a rat ... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 09:55:53 AM EST
    Johnston was the only resident in the house at the time and had lived there for about 17 years, Dreher said. The officers ''knocked and announced'' before they forced open the door and were justified in shooting once fired upon, he said.
    I suggest that cops don't get a 'no-knock' warrant and then knock.

    What total and utter BS this entire... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 11:36:01 AM EST
    ...fairy tale is composed of.

    As a northwest Atlanta neighborhood roiled over news that police had stormed a house and shot a 92-year-old woman, Atlanta police officials said Wednesday that cops had made a drug buy at the home and were returning to search the residence.

    Having made a "drug buy" the crime was complete at that moment and the officer should have immediately apprehended the offender, called in for a warrant and gotten it telephonically ok'd, and then entered the house to search before anyone could dispose of the evidence.

    Unless the police never made a buy and based their info on an informant who might have made up the whole thing to save his own butt.

    There is really just no justification to abandon a crime scene for the time it took to get a warrant and possibly allow for the destruction of evidence or to allow further sales while waiting for the warrant that could be the source of a person's death from overdose or just bad drugs.

    In fact, had they immediately arrested the seller they could have made a very good "good faith" case they they acted immediately for those purposes: busting the seller and entering to prevent destruction of evidence or further sales of illegal drugs.

    No, as a former law enforcement supervisor I can tell you that something REEKS in this case.

    THIS explanation the police gave was a FAIRY TALE for the masses' consumption.

    What is your point? (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 09:04:45 PM EST
    ......you should note the fact that all of this is happening  within the context of GOVERNMENTS WHO ARE BEING OPERATED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE OTHERWISE FAVORABLE TO YOUR LEFTIST IDEOLOGY.

    Not sure what is inconsistent here. With all your research did you determine the religious and political affiliation of the police who shot her? Or is it that they do not count as they were just following leftist ideologues' orders.

    Or is this the new wingnut mantra: Now that Democrats control congress everything is their fault.

    What drivel (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Sat Nov 25, 2006 at 10:09:07 AM EST
    The No Knock entry is IRRELEVANT.  THEY DID KNOCK BEFORE THEY ENTERED.
    Who says? The cops who murdered a 92 year old woman defending her home?

    Black communities that she focuses upon are being run over by crime and DESERVE POLICE PROTECTION AS TAX PAYING CITIZENS".
    Do you really think a surprise raid on a 92 year old woman's home and battering down her door and shooting her to death is what anyone thinks of as 'STRONGER POLICE PRESENCE'!?

    Wow (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Nov 25, 2006 at 02:18:01 PM EST
    Frothing at the mouth I see.

    How about YOU stopping your WING-NUT talking points and DEAL WITH THE FACTS and the TRUTH?

    Maybe you should see a doctor.

    Meds working? (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Sat Nov 25, 2006 at 02:39:17 PM EST
    Maybe it is a solution based on engaging all of the residents in the community and directly confronting those who are selling and purchasing drugs - prior to the police coming in.

    Guess the medicine kicks in occasionally. I would check the dosage if I were you.

    BTW what is up with all the caps. Are you screaming into your voice-to-text converter. Handy, you can flail about as well while you are blogging no doubt.

    Squeaky needs some OIL (none / 0) (#23)
    by Constructive Feedback on Sat Nov 25, 2006 at 08:06:00 PM EST
    bau996 says:
    I think this woman was a drug dealer.

    You have NO EVIDENCE to substantiate this claim.  You don't know WHAT this woman's involvement was with the materials that were found in her house.

    Her tearful niece appeared on a local radio show and stated that her now dead aunt had frequently called the police to report about crime and drug activity in the community.  She refused to move away from the community.  The house was given to her by her deceased sister.

    The house had iron bars over all windows and doors  which should provide you with details of the type of community she was in.  SHE THOUGHT THAT SOMEONE WAS BREAKING INTO HER HOUSE, plain and simple.

    About 4 months ago in another part of Atlanta a family was assaulted by THUGS who claimed they were police.  They entered through the gate and yelled "Police!" and asked the homeowner to lay on the ground.  They beat him, taped up his two daughters and stole electronic equipment and some money that he had at the house along with stealing his car.  HE WAS A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER, not a drug dealer.  

    In today's world yelling "Police" or even flashing a badge does not mean that the person is legit.

    Silly (none / 0) (#24)
    by rocks911 on Sun Nov 26, 2006 at 07:08:49 AM EST
    "She refused to move away from the community" sorry, but that's just retarded.

    Parent
    rocks911 (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 26, 2006 at 11:42:24 AM EST
    "She refused to move away from the community" sorry, but that's just retarded.

    Retarted? Are the rocks in your head or is your heart made of stone?

    Constructive Feedback may have a volatile..., er..... a rhetorical flair for language, but at least s/he has a heart and a sense of empathy.

    How old are you? Move around much? Ever consider that for someone over 80 years old, moving is tough and for some who are poor not an option?

    Please excuse me if I somehow missed your point.

    You kinda missed the point (1.00 / 2) (#26)
    by rocks911 on Sun Nov 26, 2006 at 04:14:27 PM EST
    #1. I don't have rocks in my head

    #2. I'm considered a bleeding heart liberal by my conservative friends.

    #3. I was responding that to imply that a 92 year old should move, or anybody for that matter as an answer to a deteriorating community is ludicrous.

    #4. Believe me I have a heart and empathy.

    #5. I'm 46 and a firefighter/medic for a Dallas suburb

    #6. I've moved around my share

    #7. That it's difficult for some to move, especially the poor was a motivating factor to respond.

    #8. You're excused.

    #9. I was responding to a poster (constructive feedback) who despite their handle didn't seem too constructive with their feedback, if you don't like it move!, that's rediculous. Thats the usual amswer of the wingnut right, (in a twangy southern accent "by god if you don't like this country, you can get the hell out!") Not very helpful

    #10. You've got a nice knee jerk reaction there though, twit.

    Parent

    Retarted? (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 26, 2006 at 06:33:40 PM EST
    constructive feedback was outraged that a 92 year old woman should be told anything along the lines of:
    if you don't like it move!
    Not sure what you think is retarded.  I think you may have misread constructive feedback's comment, to wit, twice.

    Parent
    The Klan Wanted Folks To Move As Well (4.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Constructive Feedback on Sun Nov 26, 2006 at 07:25:13 PM EST
    A few decades ago it was the Klan that wanted a Black woman such as this 92 year old to MOVE from the land THAT SHE OWNS.

    In the United States of America, she being a PROPERTY OWNER has some RIGHT to expect that there is a certain level of PROTECTION afforded for her life and property.

    It is not SHE who should move.  It is the CRIMINALS who should be MOVED OUT.

    Parent

    You made your point... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Bill Arnett on Mon Nov 27, 2006 at 04:45:46 PM EST
    ...but personally insulting people by calling them a "twit", especially a highly respected commenter like squeaky, will neither win you friends nor will you have much influence here.

    No matter how vehemently we agree or disagree let's at least strive not to be disagreeable.

    I haven't seen you post here before, so welcome. Diversity of opinion and the right to so state is the hallmark of America - but please, no personal attacks or name-calling.

    Parent

    New info (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Tue Nov 28, 2006 at 10:53:35 AM EST
    a confidential informant said they had asked him to lie during the investigation of the death of an 88-year-old woman, shot and killed by police officers during a drug raid last Tuesday.
    [...]
    The events leading to the death of Ms. Johnston, whose photograph in news reports showed her with a cane and a birthday crown, began with a warrant stating that an unnamed informant had bought two bags of crack cocaine from a man at the house
    [...]
    the informant, whose identity was concealed, said he had never been to the house in question and had not bought drugs there.
    [...]
    "They were going to pay me just to cover it up," he said in the interview, arranged after he placed a call to one of the station's reporters on Thursday. "They called me immediately after the shooting to ask me, I mean to tell me, `This is what you need to do.' " He added that the officers told him explicitly that he was needed to protect their story.
    [...]
    [Chief] Pennington said it was not clear if the drug dealer, referred to in the warrant only as Sam, existed. He said the officers claimed they had found a small amount of marijuana, but no cocaine, in the house.

    In asking a judge for the no-knock warrant before the raid, the narcotics investigator named in the warrant, Jason R. Smith, had said it was needed because a drug dealer inside had several surveillance cameras and monitored them closely.
    But Chief Pennington said it was not clear if that was true, either.

    He confirmed that the informant's account in the television interview was the same as what he had told the internal affairs division of the Police Department.
    [...]
    They announced themselves as the police after cutting through the burglar bars and forcing down the door.

    The cops lied about everything. They didn't make the buy, if a buy ever even existed. Her home did not have security cameras. They didn't knock before entering.

    They did murder her in her own home as she was trying to prevent an invasion.

    One other point: she shot a lot more accurately than the New York cops who could only hit a car 21 out of 50 times.

    For the folks who supported/believed the cops' lies from the begining, remember this in future threads when others doubt cops' versions of incidents.

    Interesting POV (none / 0) (#31)
    by Patrick on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 04:20:42 PM EST
    I know this thread is long since dead, but I recently read another post over at Patterico Pontifications where he interviewed a use of force expert on this very incident.  

    Thu expert was Professor Klinger (IIRC) and he had a very valid point of view IMO.  It's worth a read for those truly interested in understanding many of the points I have tried to make in the past on these types of threads.  He does it much better than I ever could.  

    Radley Balko even comments in the thread.  I know many here agree with his POV.  

    Of course you think that Patrick (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 05:00:37 PM EST
    Klinger is ex-LAPD, which from my experience in LA does make him an expert in excessive force, the use of it I mean.

    And why are you quoting from last Saturday when 5 days of new info have gone by?

    You forgot the top article link "Atlanta police officials said Wednesday that cops had made a drug buy at the home and were returning to search the residence."

    The cops didn't make the buy, they've lied from the start about the whole situation. They keep changing their story. I'm glad the FBI is investigating.

    I think it's also BS to claim, as klinger does, that no-knock warrants make the cops safer (BTW, they also lied about knocking), if you break into someone's home they have a right to shoot you.

    And all the screaming the cops do in that case only ratchets up the terror. Screaming things doesn't make them understood, it's a terror tactic that causes confusion, not clarity.

    Even the police chief admits "Atlanta Police Chief Richard Pennington said it was unclear whether there had been a drug deal or whether the suspected drug dealer actually exists."

    Why do I think what? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Patrick on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 05:31:34 PM EST
    All I said was it's a good read.  YMMV.  

    Klinger is ex-LAPD, which from my experience in LA does make him an expert in excessive force, the use of it I mean.

    So, I guess nothing he says can be valid in your opinion?  Which really indicates the rest of my response is going to be meaningless.  

    And why are you quoting from last Saturday when 5 days of new info have gone by?

    Because I just read it, and what he says in it, isn't in the least bit changed by however this particular case ends up.  

    You forgot the top article link "Atlanta police officials said Wednesday that cops had made a drug buy at the home and were returning to search the residence."

    OK, again, this has no bearing on whether or not the positions stated in the link are true or not.  

    The cops didn't make the buy, they've lied from the start about the whole situation. They keep changing their story. I'm glad the FBI is investigating.

    The search warrant says an informant made the buy.  I see no valid reason why the Department PIO would claim otherwise other than that he was mistaken.  I heard there was a claim from the informant that he was asked to lie, and if that is in fact the case, the cops deserve to be in jail.  I don't know that that is a proven fact yet...

    I think it's also BS to claim, as klinger does, that no-knock warrants make the cops safer (BTW, they also lied about knocking), if you break into someone's home they have a right to shoot you.

    Actually there's no absolute right that I'm aware of that allow one to shoot an intruder into their residence.  I will agree that in most cases in may eventually be justified.  But more on point, if I'm reading your comment correctly, you are in agreement with Professor Klinger on this point?  

    And all the screaming the cops do in that case only ratchets up the terror. Screaming things doesn't make them understood, it's a terror tactic that causes confusion, not clarity.

    Have you ever taken part in or been the recipient of a dynamic entry?  I'm thinking not, based on your comments, so you really aren't qualified to make that opinion.  Such as it is, yelling out identification in a manner that make is clear who you are is a part of the dynamic entry.  I would hardly qualify that as "all the screaming cops do."  However, if you're getting your experience from watching TV shows like COPS and all those similar shows, you're likely missing how the vast majority of police officers do their jobs.  The COPS TV show, and the disservice they've done to law enforcement is subject for another thread

    Even the police chief admits "Atlanta Police Chief Richard Pennington said it was unclear whether there had been a drug deal or whether the suspected drug dealer actually exists."

    Unclear yes, perhaps even to the Chief of Police who wasn't present during the preceeding investigation, but not certain one way or the other.  Like Professor Klinger, I think it's wise to wait for the information to come out in an investigation before making wild accusations.  Apparently you don't.  

    You've seemed particularly shrill lately...Something bothering you?  

    Shrill? (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 06:40:48 PM EST
    All I said was it's a good read.
    Sailor was right on. The police story stank from the very beginning. Your comment was at best a non sequitur, and at worse an attempt divert the thread to justify use of force where an innocent woman was gunned down.
    ..and if that is in fact the case, the cops deserve to be in jail.
    Police lie regularly and that you seem shocked by it is patently dishonest.

    It seems to me that there is a blurry line when all the lying stops. The dishonesty used on a daily basis to get the job done, must make it hard to even know where the line is, and when it is time to tell the truth.

    Mostly it seems the truth only comes out when, either the blue wall of silence breaks down or some irrefutable evidence pops up that shows that the police were lying.

    Parent

    Are you his mouthpiece? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Patrick on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 06:49:52 PM EST
    The police story stank from the very beginning. Your comment was at best a non sequitur, and at worse an attempt divert the thread to justify use of force where an innocent woman was gunned down.

    I made no judgment on the story, and despite the comments that are flying around about how the police lied, there's been no showing that it is true.  I agree the case stinks, but so far all we have is a bunch of people who weren't there spouting opinions.  I think it's wise to wait for the facts to come out via the investigation.  You, like Sailor, apparently don't.  

    Police lie regularly and that you seem shocked by it is patently dishonest.

    In your opinion of course, because that is an unprovable statement.   I am shocked when police are found to be lying, whether you think it's dishonest or not.  

    Parent

    Lying (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 06:54:32 PM EST
    I am shocked when police are found to be lying, whether you think it's dishonest or not.  
    You never lie in order to arrest a suspect? If that is true you are one very unusual police officer.  

    Parent
    Patrick (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 08:03:46 PM EST
    I read the article because you referenced it and I know you enough to know you are earnest and honest about your beliefs.

    This is an example of a case where we will disagree, but I'm hopeful time will tell whether my take, and quoting facts about the timeline, were correct.

    One of my beliefs is that saying "dynamic entry" obfuscates the fact that it means breaking someone's door to their house down and charging in screaming with weapons drawn and safety off. That's not a dynamic entry, that's an invasion.

    "You've seemed particularly shrill lately...Something bothering you?" My first response I'll forego and just say it always bothers me when things like this happen. I think it should bother everyone.

    The cops have been proven to have lied. (just see above, I'm tired of linking to their different stories.)

    IRT my current, personal state; things are better than ever before in my life. I have enough $$, a great job and an incredible relationship. Everything, for once, has jelled at the same time.

    I'm not trying to antagonize you, I just really disagree. I think your post was as thought provoking as this one.



    Parent

    Neither I, nor anyone I worked a case with (none / 0) (#37)
    by Patrick on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 07:55:50 PM EST
    has ever lied to arrest a suspect.  Criminals are criminals and if can't get them right, wait, you'll get your chance eventually.  It's not worth my job to lie on the stand, which would be necessary if I lied to make an arrest.  I submit I am not that unusual of a police officer.

    Perhaps you mean that I've lied to suspects to get them to confess or claimed I had evidence I did not to get get an admission.  I have done all of those, but even that is rarely necessary despite being entirely legal.  

    Exactly (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 08:38:33 PM EST
    Perhaps you mean that I've lied to suspects to get them to confess or claimed I had evidence I did not to get get an admission.  I have done all of those, but even that is rarely necessary despite being entirely legal.  
    Yes, no one said that was illegal.  From what you say, you have no problem with lying under some circumstances, as long as it is not illegal.  From my point of view once that type of behavior is OK ones credibility is always questionable. It seems to me when lying becomes a skill, natural and easy,  it is a dangerous thing and a very slippery slope.

    I have heard police lie routinely, and not in a interrogation room, but on the street. Certainly not illegal on their part but reflexively immoral, and totally unnecessary. In fact Mayor Guilliani condoned it. I guess from their point of view, practice makes perfect for when lying is really important.