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It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantless Surveillance

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 09:45:16 AM EST
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From the ACLU (received by e-mail):

[N]ext week Congress returns from recess, and at the top of their agenda is passing legislation that would attempt to retroactively legitimize President Bush's unconstitutional warrantless wiretapping program. Two similar bills are slated to be marked up in, and possibly voted out of, committee next week - Rep. Wilson's H.R.5825 in House Judiciary on Wednesday, September 6, and Sen. Specter's S.2453 in Senate Judiciary on Thursday, September 7.

As part of our effort to spread the word about these bills and the danger they pose to civil liberties, I'm asking for your help. My goal is to get as many people as possible talking about NSA next week, especially on Wednesday, September 6.

Bloggers can help get this issue back into the national consciousness. Here's how.

Before Wednesday, September 6

  • Spread the word. Mention it in a post, tell other bloggers, etc.
  • Read the materials below for more information and background.

On Wednesday, September 6

  • Write a post on NSA warrantless wiretapping.

The ACLU has lots of materials here.

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    It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantless Surveillance | 34 comments (34 topical)
    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#1)
    by Bill Arnett on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 10:12:47 AM EST
    The Democrats need a "secret Senator" to place a hold on this legislation in the finest tradition of Ted Stevens.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#2)
    by cmpnwtr on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 10:40:38 AM EST
    The key here is warrantless surveillance. The corporate media and puntiocracy continue to deceive the public on what the issue is. They present the Dems as some kind of clueless civil libertarians who object to any kind of surveillance to protect the country and the Repugs as the guardians of the public safety. The issue is court and congressional oversight to protect our liberties and to guard against the abuse of power and political spying to suppress dissent. Since when is the Thomas Merton Society of Chicago a terrorist organization?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 10:44:44 AM EST
    The NSA is under the influence of the notorious: JOE BUSH a.k.a. The Monstrous Morph -Click on the link to see the evil evidence and. . .Warn Everyone! (This message not endorsed by Joe Lieberman, George W. Bush, the Republican Party, their supporters or donors. Any similarity to persons living or dead is entirely intentional.) Blog On

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#7)
    by Sailor on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 11:04:39 AM EST
    Education Dept. Shared Student Data With F.B.I.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#9)
    by profmarcus on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 01:55:45 PM EST
    thanks for the tip... consider it done... And, yes, I DO take it personally

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 03:05:24 PM EST
    Sailor - Please stay on topic. The thread is about NSA warrantless searches of terrorist calls into the US and from the US. I mean we wouldn't want to bother them while they plot and plan, eh?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#4)
    by Bill Arnett on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    Anonymous- I forget nothing. In particular I remember a judge declaring that bush's program is unconstitutional and violates the 1st and 4th Amendments. YOU may not care about bush's crimes, but I do. I am not going to surrender my rights to ANYONE for any reason. And Heathrow? Falling apart almost as fast as an Abu Gonzales or John Ashcroft bust. Oh, btw, you mis-state the facts when you repeat the Republican talking point that "a majority thinks terrorists calls should be monitored" when you do not include the vital precondition the majority actually wants: THAT THEY OBTAIN A WARRANT FIRST. You will find on this site that Republican Guard talking points are debunked pretty quickly. See this and this for more truthful examinations of bush's illegal spying program.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    Terrorism analyst Harvey Kushner made a dubious claim about the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping program conducted by the National Security Agency (NSA). To hear the audio, check out Colorado Media Matters.
    "This has borne fruit certainly in a variety of different cases, for example in New York in the Lackawanna Five, the cell -- Al Qaeda cell -- as well as [the] recent apprehension of a variety of terrorists and alleged terrorists in Great Britain who planned to blow up planes over the Atlantic."
    In fact, neither news articles nor members of the Bush administration have stated that there is a connection between the warrantless wiretapping program and the foiling of the alleged plot to bomb transatlantic flights that British authorities disrupted August 10. Additionally, Kushner stated that "the NSA intercept program is a very valuable program" -- a contention that is also highly in dispute.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    Thank you for providing the cook-book! This is a lynchpin of the CYA-fast strategy for Junior's Junta, and it must not go through!

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#8)
    by dutchfox on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    Thanks, Sailor, for that link. I heard about on the news while driving in my car this morning. Oh my, operation Strikeback!
    Ms. McGann added, "I decided I should file a Freedom of Information Act request." Last month, she received documents in response to her request that were heavily redacted, she said. Among them were Education Department memorandums describing F.B.I. requests for information on specific people whose names were blocked out and an internal memorandum dated June 16, 10 days after her interview, stating that the data sharing program had terminated. The name of the author of that memorandum was also redacted, she added.
    What are these people afraid of?!

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    If they passed either version of the bill, wouldnt it be after the fact? If it was illegal on tuesday, and you get arrested for it, and then on wednesday, it's legal, you still have to face the charges right? So how will this get the president of the hook?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#12)
    by jen on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    If they were plotting and planning Why not get a warrant?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#14)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 05:38:44 PM EST
    The thread is about NSA warrantless searches of terrorist calls into the US and from the US.
    Jim, you make your confusion so obvious. The thread is about violations of the law, not the monitoring of terrorists, since the NSA has offered no evidence to support the claim that terrorists were monitored, EVEN WHEN ASKED BY THE COURT TO DO SO. The reason the NSA lost in Ann Diggs Taylor's court was that it did not offer any evidence or testimony to support its own claims, and the judge was required by law to find against a defendant who did not dispute the charges. Since the NSA did not demonstrate to the FISA court as required by law that they had a good reason to intercept traffic, there is no paper trail to tell us who was being tapped and why. This means that the technology that we know can sort individual voices out of millions could be used to monitor political opponents and no one would ever know. Perhaps YOU trust an immature, spoiled brat like Mr. Bush to respect the fact that he has this technology but isn't allowed to use it, but I don't. There is that entire life history of incompetence and corruption to consider. You can read on the Whitehouse.gov website Michael Hayden's admission that he violated federal law, specifically the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Once a guy confesses in public to a federal crime, shouldn't he answer in court? Wait. He got a promotion after he confessed to a federal crime. How does that work?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 06:10:18 PM EST
    Repack writes
    The reason the NSA lost in Ann Diggs Taylor's court was that
    she is a Carter leftie who thinks it is her duty to run the defense of the country. She will soon be proven wrong. Jen - If a warrant is not required, why get one? What if you run into another Carter apointee? Etc.and etc. and etc.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#16)
    by Sailor on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 06:18:30 PM EST
    warrantless searches are unconstitutional, but trust ppj to support further erosions of our rights and liberties. FISA, jimmy, where they can obtain warrants even after the fact. If they'd obeyed the law they wouldn't have been in a lefty courtroom.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 06:41:46 PM EST
    anonymous 11:00 am: The Heathrow plot was foiled using warrants, not secret fascist spying.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#18)
    by RF on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 06:49:48 PM EST
    Simple- Get a Warrant- Get a Warrant before or after you tap a terrorist, but get a warrant, or risk me looking deep into your eyes, and convincing everyone I come in contact with that you belong in jail, if you aid and abet lawbreakers- So it is very simple, please, for your well being, get a warrant-

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 01, 2006 at 07:57:58 PM EST
    Whatever happened to Russ Tice?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 06:48:08 AM EST
    Sailor - Shall we mention again that old devil phrase, "unreasonable searches and seizures?" No? Sorry. I just did. RF - Please, don't look deep into my eyes.... Unless the "R" stands for Rose, or Rebecca or Rita.. And please read the 4th. What it says, not what you want it to say.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    Wanna get Congressmen's attention about warrantless spying? Ask them how they enjoyed their recess time with Maria at the No-tell Hotel after an all day bribery session in the hotel conference room. And tell them you have copies in safe places.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    kinda wierd that none of you appear to be at all concerned with what is happening in your own back yards... damned everything for the freedom to do anything? you'd all do well to spend a couple of hours discovering the monumental growth of islam in your states, in the USA in general, in the name of diversity, of course... and you might note how many of those, which are supported by ACLU/CAIR/MTF/DEMs/LIBs are "non profit"..., how many you and I are supporting either willingly or unwillingly... every one of you knows that there ARE folks here who want to do US harm. How can you justify NOT wanting them surveilled?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#22)
    by Bill Arnett on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    ppj- Gosh, it would be nice if, for once, you actually had some knowledge of how the law works. Yes, there are VERY limited exceptions to the need to have a warrant, but most of those pertain to a policeman's right to do a "patdown" to check you for weapons. ANY further invasion of your person, your vehicle, your home, papers and personal effects
    require a warrant issued upon a showing of probable cause to a neutral magistrate.
    That's what makes the Patriot Act so reprehensible as it expands the use of "security letters" to obtain certain semi-public records. But to help you out, when you are attempting to determine what a law means you first read the plain words of the statute (or amendment) and interpret those plain words by their customary usage and meaning. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The use of the word SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED means that the obtaining of warrants is MANDATORY, except within the very narrow exceptions as stated above. So, ppj, just what part of "SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED" do you not understand?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#24)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    The reason why Bush doesn't want to get one of those easy-to-obtain warrants from the secret FISA court is that even those judges wouldn't allow him to spy on all his political rivals and dissenters. You can bet your bottom dollar that's what he's doing!

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bill Arnett on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    ppj- Gosh, it would be nice if, for once, you actually had some knowledge of how the law works. Yes, there are VERY limited exceptions to the need to have a warrant, but most of those pertain to a policeman's right to do a "patdown" to check you for weapons. ANY further invasion of your person, your vehicle, your home, papers and personal effects
    require a warrant issued upon a showing of probable cause to a neutral magistrate.
    That's what makes the Patriot Act so reprehensible as it expands the use of "security letters" to obtain certain semi-public records. But to help you out, when you are attempting to determine what a law means you first read the plain words of the statute (or amendment) and interpret those plain words by their customary usage and meaning. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The use of the word SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED means that the obtaining of warrants is MANDATORY, except within the very narrow exceptions as stated above. So, ppj, just what part of "SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED" do you not understand?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#27)
    by Bill Arnett on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    ppj- BTW, if is really puerile to vacuously attack a sitting judge with such credentials as Judge Taylor possesses. When you have graduated from Yale Law Scool (in the Fifties), faced down those who would discriminate against you because of race, when you've been a leader in obtaining equal rights for all, and when you have sat on a federal bench for almost 30-years and heard and ruled on thousands and thousands of legal cases, well, in your case, YOU STILL WOULDN'T HAVE ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE to contradict such an exemplary jurist. You know, ppj, eventually, as you keep taking cheap shot after cheap shot at people so highly superior in intelligence and experience compared to you, it will dawn on you that IT IS YOU that is cheapened and that makes a demonstrable fool of yourself. But I guess cheap shots are all at which you excel.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 12:46:39 PM EST
    The Doonesbury story arc that is going on now can be referenced as well including talk about "Princess Jenna," apparently the next American monarch. Come on King George! Don't you want more time to "read" those books? You don't look like you are having fun. Abdicate your throne. Yeah, Jenna isn't 35, but the rules don't seem to matter too much to you. Why should that one?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 02:26:44 PM EST
    Bill A - "Unreasonable" is a qualifier. It describes "searches." Now, if all searches were unreasonable, and if all searches required a warrant, the amendment would not have the word "unreasonable". The amendment would read:
    and effects, against searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
    You admit that a warrant is not required in some limited cases, yet you try and limit the situation. Won't work. Once you understand that "unreasonable searches" is the basis, it becomes clear that there are "reasonable" searches that do not require a warrant. The ability to take action that protects the country by listening on telcons/data transfers from foreign sources to US sources abd vice versa is a perfectly reasonable act in today's world. As to the "72 hour excuse," what do you do when you have been following a train of calls, yet you haven't quite got there yet? Go to a judge and say, well, we're almost there... As for the good judge, I again point out that she is a member of the far Left, appointed by the worst President in the history of the country who continues to embarass himself, and the country on an almost daily basis. As for "cheap shots?" Are you kidding? That is the king of hypocritical. As for "shall not be violated," that goes back to "unreasonable." Tough word to get around, eh? Dark Avenger: You love "Alice in Wonderland?" Figures. Not Alice, but my favorite:
    Yesterday upon the stair I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today I wish that man would go away. -- Hugh Means (1875-1965)


    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 04:18:06 PM EST
    PPJ In order to be an effective communicator like your faux-cowboy hero, I think this nicely summarizes your approach to things here:
    There was a crooked man and he walked a crooked mile,

    He found a crooked sixpence upon a crooked stile.

    He bought a crooked cat which caught a crooked mouse,

    And they all lived together in a little crooked house.

    Run out of things to blame on the terrorist-hugging, antt-American leftists today? TTFN

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 04:49:59 PM EST
    yeah, ppj always leaves out "shall not be violated." Just like all the wrongwingers, he think he'll never be violated ... and the rest of us deserve it.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Sep 02, 2006 at 11:39:50 PM EST
    I'll do my best to get it talked about. I'm sick and tired of my government being ran like organized crime. The oath of office is to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic. Bush & Co. are doing the opposite, so it is up to us, the people, from which the power comes. Fool you once, shame on them. Fool you twice, shame on you. Fool you thrice, Helloooooo?

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#33)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Sep 03, 2006 at 11:33:45 AM EST
    As to the "72 hour excuse," what do you do when you have been following a train of calls, yet you haven't quite got there yet?
    According to federal law, you provide the FISA judge with the probable cause that led you to that "train of calls," and he issues the warrant. How hard is that for you to grasp. You. Follow. the. Law. on. the. Matter.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Sun Sep 03, 2006 at 10:47:40 PM EST
    FROM: edger TL: My goal is to get as many people as possible talking about NSA next week... I think this is an important and good goal, but it still is only ONE of the many dangers to civil liberties posed by the bush licking and rubber stamping republican house and senate. I also think that for the next 75 days bloggers need to educate and refresh peoples memories of the facts, loudly, repeatedly, und unmercifully, on everthing the bush (I purposely never capitalize his name: he doesn't deserve it) administration and the republicans have done to the country and the world for the past six years. Here's a good start, closely related to the topic of this thread: Freedoms Lost Under G.W. Bush It's also very important and necessary, I think, to counter, again with endlessly repeated facts the truth about Iraq, as the repubs and the media will do their best to make the fall elections a refendum on the so called war on terrorism and continue trying to falsely tie bush's invasion of Iraq to 9/11, while shamelessly fearmongering and terrorizing the country by, inflating the problem far, far, beyond reality, as AC and Fox in this article demonstrate: Iraq Most Important Midterm Election Issue?
    COULTER: Unlike Morris, I don't like to give predictions. No, it absolutely should be in Iraq. It should be the war on terrorism, not just Iraq. That is part of the war on terrorism. But no, of course, I mean, we have billions of angry fanatics who want to destroy America, slit our throats, you know, kidnap Americans, blow up planes. Of course that is the most important issue. And, I mean, the fact that Democrats aren't very good on the national security issue, I think, is indicated by the fact that they consider it unfair to talk about national security.
    They WILL terrorize because they ARE terrorists. Because they've got nothing else to offer. Because they're politically and morally bankrupt. Because they're only capable of playing to the lowest common denominator in anything they try to do. Because they're pandering to the basest grunting limbic reptilian fears of the most uneducated segments of society. Because they're finished unless they can terrorize.

    Re: It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantle (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Sep 03, 2006 at 11:17:57 PM EST
    This is clearly a situation that requires a veto. This bill cannot be allowed to pass. When the democrats agreed to restrict their use of the veto, persuant to Republican permission, they signaled a loss of nerve and a commitment to supporting the status quo. If the bill passes, It will, in effect, be a declaration that authoritarians are here to stay.

    It's Time to Start Talking About NSA Warrantless Surveillance | 34 comments (34 topical)