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New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. Soldiers

The LA Times today reports on newly released Pentagon documents showing atrocities committed by U.S. armed forces during the Vietnam War were far greater in number and scope than previously acknowledged.

The files are part of a once-secret archive, assembled by a Pentagon task force in the early 1970s, that shows that confirmed atrocities by U.S. forces in Vietnam were more extensive than was previously known. The documents detail 320 alleged incidents that were substantiated by Army investigators -- not including the most notorious U.S. atrocity, the 1968 My Lai massacre.

....The records describe recurrent attacks on ordinary Vietnamese -- families in their homes, farmers in rice paddies, teenagers out fishing. Hundreds of soldiers, in interviews with investigators and letters to commanders, described a violent minority who murdered, raped and tortured with impunity. Abuses were not confined to a few rogue units, a Times review of the files found. They were uncovered in every Army division that operated in Vietnam.

Much of the 8 page article concerns the slaughter of 19 civilians in an incident previously reported but never confirmed until now. The LA Times has put some of the records online. My Left Wing has more about the article. As to the sourcing, it is

...based in part on records of the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group filed at the National Archives in College Park, Md. The collection includes 241 case summaries that chronicle more than 300 substantiated atrocities by U.S. forces and 500 unconfirmed allegations. The archive includes reports of war crimes by the 101st Airborne Division's Tiger Force that the Army listed as unconfirmed. The Toledo Blade documented the atrocities in a 2003 newspaper series.

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  • Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#1)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 07:30:41 PM EST
    How many of these confirmed incidents correspond to testimony at the Winter Soldier presentations, which John Kerry helped organize when he was a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and for which he was so cruelly and unfairly excoriated during his presidential campaign?

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#2)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 07:40:57 PM EST
    Excoriated because, to put it very bluntly, the pigs and their sycophants will do anything to win. See the Operation Northwoods reference on the recent Cuba thread to get an idea of how far they're willing to go. "Atrocities" are in the eye of the beholder to these people; power is everything.

    After reading that article, I think John Kerry is owed an apology by every Republican -- such as me -- who attacked him for claiming there were widespread atrocities committed. I hope my fellow Republicans will join me in belatedly admitting Kerry was right.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Johnny on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 11:02:55 AM EST
    Apology is not the wrong-wingers strong suit. They will simply start getting red in the face and declare, at the top of their sycophantic lungs, "WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"? They they will pull a quick "Look! Over there! A turban!"... And the fools will rush in droves to vote for them.

    Hey LA times... Why stop there? I'm sure you could dig up stuff about WWII, WWI, the Civil War...etc..etc. War is hell and there are atrocities on all sides. So what's the point, except to do what Jondee has put so elequently..."the pigs and their sycophants will do anything to win". Let's just bash our servicemen any chance we get...Right Jondee? Don't have anything on the front burner....go back 30 years or more and find something. Get it out there when it fits your political agenda.

    Hey LA times... Why stop there? I'm sure you could dig up stuff about WWII, WWI, the Civil War...etc..etc. War is hell and there are atrocities on all sides. So what's the point, except to do what Jondee has put so elequently..."the pigs and their sycophants will do anything to win". Let's just bash our servicemen any chance we get...Right Jondee? Don't have anything on the front burner....go back 30 years or more and find something. Get it out there when it fits your political agenda.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#7)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 11:41:57 AM EST
    lets see- first it was "the US doesn't do these kinds of things" then "its only a few bad apples, we've never done it before" Now its "everybody doing it so whats the big deal".
    go back 30 years or more and find something. Get it out there when it fits your political agenda.
    this from one of those fully in line with the swift boating of kerry. Can you say hypocricy

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#8)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 11:49:04 AM EST
    Bullet brain - I was "bashing" the people that orchestrated the smear campaign against Kerry and The Vietnam Vets Against the War. If hearing about atrocities is too much for your Rush-spew-filled ears, dont commit them or try to gloss them over or sweep them under the rug when they occur. That is, unless you want to include The Third Reich in your "war is hell" all-purpose excuse.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 12:25:52 PM EST
    BB, japan actually attacked us, that's the diff between WWII and VN/iraq. VN did not attack us, we lied about the gulf of tonkin incident to gin up a war on a country that had no ability to attack us. Sounds familiar eh?

    Hey-I'm no hypocrite. Maybe the next big spread in the LA times could be of Saddam Hussein's army's war atrocities or Ho Chi Minh's army's war atrocities. I'm happy to read all about both sides. Isn't that the Fox news mantra-give both sides and let the reader decide.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:38:24 PM EST
    As a matter of fact you are. By pushing the same war-is-hell-both-sides-do-it meme, you're attempting to relativize and trivialize the atrocities and excuse the smear campaign against Kerry IMO. I bet you really believe Fox "gives both sides" too eh?

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Aaron on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 04:28:16 AM EST
    This is why you don't go to war unless you have no other choice. War turns virtuous people into killers, and emboldens even petty criminals into becoming ruthless bandits and pirates who'll loot pillage rape and murder at every opportunity. Yes, war brings out all the finest qualities of mankind. I guess that's why we love it so much. Learn to practice war no more.

    Soccerdad.... first it was "the US doesn't do these kinds of things" then "its only a few bad apples,>" Ok...let me see if I can get through to you... The US Government doesn't condone...train... or in any way teach/preach this kind of behavior... However, there are people in all walks of life (yes even in the military) that do these things... So yes, it is only a "few bad apples".... And yes, every country ever involved in a war is guilty of this type of thing. Does that make it right...no... but it is what it is and if you make a 'big deal' out of it, then it will be a big deal. this from one of those fully in line with the swift boating of kerry. Kerry turned (narked) on his comrades.... That is just not done. And people don't want a guy like that for president. Very simple! Jondee... Bullet brain - I was "bashing" the people that orchestrated the smear campaign against Kerry and The Vietnam Vets Against the War. Well, sh@t for brains - Bash all you want, but Kerry smeared himself... by being a nark! I bet you really believe Fox "gives both sides" too eh? They do a better job than the others...! At least they try... unlike CBS, ABC, NBC & CNN that just give one side! I don't think you'll see them doctoring photos like Reuters does! Sailor... Sounds familiar eh? Yes... everyone was running scared of the commies then. But there are many other differences too, so your example doesn't really hold water.

    The greatest wrong was not that these atrocities were committed -- though that in itself is horrific -- but that they were covered up, glossed over, ignored. The good men who tried to alert their higher ups to the criminals among them were labeled as "narks" and told to keep their mouths shut. The few criminals who were prosecuted were given light sentences, released after terms of a few weeks or months, or in the most egregious case of all, pardoned by the President of the United States. People who torture, rape, or murder innocent civilians are not my comrades. They are not "our troops." They are vicious criminals, as evil as any you can name. But from the amount of exposure this story has received (a mouse has shorter legs), it's clear that the vast majority of the media and their consumers prefer to turn away, even as this sad history repeats itself in Iraq. I'll take Bush at his word that it's not our policy to mistreat prisoners or noncombatants -- but when it happens, we don't much mind it.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 09:13:09 AM EST
    everyone was running scared of the commies then. But there are many other differences too, so your example doesn't really hold water.
    everybody was scared of commies then, now we're scared of terrerists. Same lie, differnt country. Elaborate on the differences ... and you'll see even more similarities.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#16)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 10:22:27 AM EST
    B.B - Is it narking (dishonorable?) to report the murder, rape, or torture of innocent people in civilian life? If you really believe that there are higher values than protecting the innocent, then maybe you should shut-up from now on about Saddams atrocities and "abortion loving liberals". Obviously you think being a protected member of the club is more important than doing the right thing,

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Lww on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 11:06:15 AM EST
    During WW2, scores of soldiers were executed for rape and murder in Europe. It was different when it came to killing(executing) soldiers. A friends father admitted on his deathbed that he machine-gunned German prisoners. They had their Malmedys.

    Sailor... now we're scared of terrerists. Same lie, differnt country. The Communism threat was real enough...(not a lie) was it overblown? Yes... the benefit of hindsight kinda shows us that it might have been....however.... Elaborate on the differences The main difference is that we were never attacked by them. It was all talk. Now, .... had the missiles in Cuba been allowed to stay (and I have to say here that with the current crop of liberals complaining about everything the government does...... that just might have happened) things may have been very different! We may never know... But we do know that we were attacked by Islamic radical crazies that (like the USSR) have come out and said they want to take over the world. So...do we wait around and see if they mean it (maybe waiting until it's too late) or do we take them at their word (& actions up to now) and try and prevent that from happening? Jondee..... B.B - Is it narking (dishonorable?) to report the murder, rape, or torture of innocent people in civilian life? No..not at all. As long as you 'finger' the responsible party. But to just accuse everyone is not right...or true! And, as much as everyone would like to get on GW for his lack of service... Mr. Kerry wasn't in country long enough (especially between hospital stays receiving his "questionable" purple hearts) to see too much. If you really believe that there are higher values than protecting the innocent No..but let's get straight on who's innocent & who isn't. If you buy that all 700 or so killed in Lebanon are innocent (as the liberal press would like us to believe) then I have a bridge to sell you! Everyone went on & on about the woman & child killed while we got that beheading murderous thug a couple of months ago in Iraq..... Well, I contend that anybody that lets that guy in their house for a mtg isn't all that innocent. Then there's the same woman shown on the news (almost nightly) talking about mean ol Israel bombing her house. How many houses does she have? It's the same woman! And they have also shown the same building, (at least 2 times I know of) claiming it was bombed on 2 different accasions... (It's the exact same picture!) Then there was the very funny one where the CNN reporter was being lead around by the nose by some hezbollah guy, showing him just what he wanted the world to see, as if missiles being shot from any of those buildings (rooftops) was impossible and Israel is just killing anybody they can, when we both know Israel is capable of taking out all of Lebanon in a matter of hours if they wanted to & didn't care about civilians. In most cases... leaflets were dropped warning people to leave. Does hezbollah do that? How much time does the (liberal) press spend showing the people in Israel being bombed? Disproportionate response indeed! The terrorists are sophisticated enough to play our media like a fiddle... and the sad part is that the media, and many of you on the left, fall for it.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:46:17 PM EST
    BB is spewing the crap today. You just keep believing the delusions of the extreme right wing blogosphere. So now the spin is that although Israel flattened lebanon no innocents were hurt. lay off the kool aid man.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:55:13 PM EST
    It is 28 days since Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers, prompting a ground and air assault on Lebanon by the Israeli army. In that time, 932 people have been killed in Lebanon, with 75 missing, presumed dead. 29 Lebanese Army soldiers have been killed. 3,293 Lebanese have been wounded. 45 per cent of the casualties have been children. 913,000 Lebanese have been displaced (300,000 of whom are children). 94 Israelis have been killed and 1,867 wounded.
    LINK

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    I think it is worse than kool aide, SD. Bombs for Brains is suffering from some kind of permannet brain disease. This isn't your normal temporary psychadelic or mood altering substance. He's hit his head, has some early onset of alzheimers, was exposed to some pesticides, toxic chemicals and or radiation or was just plain given the short shaft in the brains department at birth. I'm only speculating here, but Bombs for Brains is not quite right.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Lww on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 03:57:58 PM EST
    Sailor, read about the $68 billion contract to build F-22s. That's just a drop in the bucket. It's the reason for all of it. Perpetual enemies is good for business. BB, you must be a youngster. I still think Israel had rusty bombs they had to "unload."

    soccerdad.... So now the spin is that although Israel flattened lebanon no innocents were hurt. lay off the kool aid man. Fisrt of all.... I never said that! And second...Isreal is a long way from flattening Lebanon! Do you actually read anything? Peaches... Bombs for Brains is suffering from some kind of permannet brain disease Actually... I think for myself and don't buy into the media's view of things.. All the koolaid is on your side! LWW... BB, you must be a youngster Nope..in my mid 50's & a Viet Nam vet. Been around the block a few times and I know what's what. Funny how none of you 3 commented on anything I actually said in my post..or if you did (like soccerdad) totally misread it.... and just resorted to name calling! Actually...I'm not surprised!

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#24)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 09:12:32 AM EST
    Actually... I think for myself and don't buy into the media's view of things..
    Point taken. I'm not blaming it on the media or the koolaide. As I implied, Brain damage.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 09:18:21 AM EST
    I keep picturing one of those guys painted blue in the end zone section waving a plastic beer cup at the camera.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#26)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 10:01:49 AM EST
    SD & Peaches, I thought that this thread was about the US. In Vietnam. Now you are with LWW and his anti-Israel rants. You are in league with a known anti-semite. People are often judged by the company they keep. You may want to rethink some of your positions. Or at least, the company that you keep.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 10:12:22 AM EST
    Roger, First of all, you have no idea of the company I keep. Your above post is completely ludicrous. If you have a point, make it. Don't start trying to shoehorn everyone into your paradign to fit your particular agenda of separating the pro-semites from the anti-semites. I could care less.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 10:20:19 AM EST
    Roger - Hitler was supposedly an animal lover and an anti-vivisectionist; no doubt in the minds of those who dont give a damn about animals, that makes the ASPCA a potential Nazi organization. That said, I get your point about LWW.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 11:18:17 AM EST
    Roger Where is my anti Israel rant, oh I rmember any criticism of the grat and perfect Israel amkes one an extremists and anti-semite. Thats what you are inferring. Besides I was responding to BB. I dont see your comment direct at him to keep things on track. Exposing yourself for the extremist you are?

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 11:20:09 AM EST
    Roger is at it with his Lukudnik/McCarthyism intimidation tactics again. Funny how when it comes to Israel many with left leaning tendencies snop into ultra right wing fascists. The brain is a fragile thing.
    You are in league with a known anti-semite. People are often judged by the company they keep. You may want to rethink some of your positions. Or at least, the company that you keep.
    Are the Satmar Chassids, or anyone that associates with them also anti-semites?

    According to some people, if you criticize the government of Israel you either hate jews or sympathize with those that do. This is an old tactic for quashing a free and open debate on the issue of human rights abuses by the Israeli government. When I am confronted with it, I ask for examples of specific comments that the person saw as racist. Then you can dissect what is racist and what isn't. But in this case, we have someone taking it to a new level, cautioning those who criticize Israel that they may be equated with real or perceived racists. That's pretty desperate, dishonest and just plain reeks. What does this have to do with the topic? The same tactics are employed by those who defend atrocities committed by the U.S. government. Speak out on the small cabal of those that are responsible for the excesses of our foreign policy and you "hate America". So to clarify..."America" and "semites" consist of a much larger group of people than the corrupt old men with the blood on their hands, tyvm.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#32)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 01:40:15 PM EST
    It's too bad, I used to enjoy comments by SD. Squeaky sometimes has a good point or two, and as for Ernesto, well, I still suspect that he works for the Cuban government. We all have our quirks and flaws. I am generally left wing, but I tend to support Israel. I am aware of inequities and injustices committed by the Israelis, but I generally find the Palestinian cause too bloodthirsty for my taste. I am also quick to anger. If any of the above commenters are honest people (and I believe some are), I would only ask that you examine your hard line approach to this issue. Few issues are black and white, and this one certainly is not. I pointed out one commenter that accused me, in another thread, of being a hassidic wife beater. On another, he claimed that his congressperson was actually controlled by Israeli agents. I found it spooky that otherwise rational posters are in the middle of a love fest with this guy. Don't duck this because I didnt complain about BB being off topic, I generally dont bother addressing BB. He and I live on different planets. Piling on with the poster whose proposition is that Israel is getting rid of old ordinance to benefit the US arms industry is sickening. Now, Jondee has a point. You can be against Israeli policy and not be an anti-semite. You can actually be a pro-Israel anti-semite. You can share many beliefs with people that you have huge differences with. But, SD in particular- the loss of life is terrible- on BOTH sides. Innocent people are being killed- on BOTH sides. Israel feels threatened because they ARE. Just like the Palestinians feel that they have been dispossessed- because they HAVE. Please try to at least pretend objectivity. -end of rant

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 01:53:56 PM EST
    the loss of life is terrible- on BOTH sides. Innocent people are being killed- on BOTH sides.
    just 20 times as many lebanese.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 01:54:58 PM EST
    Roger, Because you let your anger get the best of you, you were and are unable to make distinctions and read accurately. SD and I were responding to a post made by BB at August 8, 2006 01:12 PM. A couple of hours later, LWW inserted a comment made a comment that awas not acknowledged by either SD nor I. Believe it or not, I can't speak for SD, but I do not follow every thread on TL. I don't have the time. So, I am not party to every little dust up. I have not paid enough attention to LWW to form an opinion on him. But, just because he has you feel insulted by him and because he happens to have posted on a thread in close proximity to me, does not mean I have to either condemn him as an anti-semite or face anti-semite charges against myself by you. As Ernesto stated: That's pretty desperate, dishonest and just plain reeks. He's right. When you apologize, I'll readily accept and move on.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#35)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 02:01:23 PM EST
    Peaches, Sorry that I included you in that. I was reading the comments and you were in the middle of a pile of pro-hezbollah posters. I actually got dyslexic and assossiated your name with a different post. BTW- SD did comment that since I didnt condemn BB, that I must agree with him. Maybe we should all agree that ignoring a poster generally means that you dont agree with them. On standard for all. As for Ernesto- I have only seen very one sided comments from him.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 02:12:28 PM EST
    SD did comment that since I didnt condemn BB, that I must agree with him.
    Where did i say you must agree with him. You accused me of a anti-Israeli rant - I still waiting for me to show it to me on this thread. Where is it? Dont demand objectivity from other people when you are pulling the kind of tactics you are. Glass houses and all that.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#37)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 02:17:47 PM EST
    Roger, No problem. And, as far as Ernesto, if he works for the cuban gov't, do you think he can get me a job? ;) we all come with our baggage. Some might say, for Ernesto it is Cuba, for you Israel. For me, its...,I don't know, what is it?...the anti-corps. And SD...You don't need to tell him about how terrible loss of life is for both sides. He knows and has consistently said so. SD is angry and justifiablyu so. Where that anger comes down can cause disagreement. Just listen to Bob. And I hope that you die And your death'll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I'll watch while you're lowered Down to your deathbed And I'll stand o'er your grave 'Til I'm sure that you're dead Now, for someone who is supposed to be for Peace and is associated with the antiwar movement, that is some serious spite - perhaps, again, justifiably so. Well, there are Masters of War in Israel. There are Masters of War in Hezbollah. There are Masters of War in Hamas. They have all earned my spite as, I believe, they have earned SD's also.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#38)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 02:19:46 PM EST
    SD, 12:18 pm- re: BB "show it to me ON THIS THREAD" (emphasis added) -too cute for words

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#39)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 02:22:06 PM EST
    Peaches- "Amen" to that!

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 02:25:14 PM EST
    This is what I said
    Besides I was responding to BB. I dont see your comment direct at him to keep things on track.
    Obviously I did not say you must agree with him. I was making the point you were singling me out Suffering from projection? Do you always impose your interpretation on things. You are not cute. You are pathetic

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 04:01:37 PM EST
    BTW- SD did comment that since I didnt condemn BB, that I must agree with him
    rog, that's the standard technique that every wrongwinger on this site, and in the wild, uses to accuse me of treason, supporting terrorism, hating America, hating the troops ... etc. And while I wasn't a party to this discussion, I can certainly understand why those who responded did so in such a manner.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#42)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 04:30:53 PM EST
    SD, You present the straight Hezbollah party line. You call anyone who disagrees with you names, then accuse them of slander. Then you act high and mighty. I've seen you do this before, to others. This topic is the first time that I've been subject to it. Typical bully behavior. High school level.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#43)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 04:47:16 PM EST
    Sailor, You assume that because the Lebanese suffer higher losses that they have the moral high ground? If I repeatedly start fist fights, and always lose, then I am many things, but not a victim. Hezbollah started this fight, and they are not even losing, so spare me the victim label. As for their losses, who knows? You seem to be accepting, at face value, their propaganda. Reuters has already been caught doctoring photos. The same photographer took the pictures at Qana also. There are already allegations that those pics were also photoshopped. I dont have any more answers than anyone else. The only thing is, I blame the one who started it.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#44)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 04:54:41 PM EST
    roger, you are equating hebollah with lebanon.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#45)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 04:59:37 PM EST
    And btw, this thread is about VN.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#46)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 05:01:03 PM EST
    Hezbollah has pretty much taken over Lebanon at this point. Too bad, Lebanon was nice

    Roger...my government (U.S.A. not Cuba, tyvm) is not arming Hezbollah. It is arming Israel. So, if I seem once sided it's because I am paying for the bombs that are killing Lebanese children.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#48)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 05:08:02 PM EST
    Ah Vietnam, another thing we learned nothing from. And Ernesto- we are probably building the weapons for both sides. That seems to be the way we usually do it.

    Roger, Hezbollah gets their stuff from Iran, Russia and Syria I think. And we haven't sold those countries arms in at least a couple decades at least. ;)

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#50)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 05:30:55 PM EST
    Roger ever the victim and liar. You accused me of a tirade - not true You stated that I said that you must agree with BB - not true so you get caught lying and now you attack me - just how pathetic are you really? Trying to divert attention from your usual attacks and tactics. You dont fool anyone.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 05:51:14 PM EST
    If Saladin and Maimonides could co-exist, the Jews and the Muslims can co-exist. The idea that this all stems from irreconcilable racial and religious differences is a crock IMO. That's the cover story; "the legend" as they say in C.I.A parlance. Never believed it, never will believe it.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#52)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 05:55:32 PM EST
    Ernesto, I saw something a few weeks ago about Hezbollah using american made anti tank weapons. I cant find it now, sorry. Seems similar to Iran-Contra, where we armed both sides, something we often do. SD, Whatever

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 05:57:23 PM EST
    Roger-
    If I repeatedly start fist fights, and always lose, then I am many things, but not a victim.
    Yes you would be called an idiot, jerk, fool, masochist, etc, but if the person you started the fight with went into the town where you live and killed everything that moved they would be called much worse things the dead would clearly be called victims. Everyone has a blindspot, I guess.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 05:58:40 PM EST
    SD, Whatever
    About sums up his integrity and honesty

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#55)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 06:08:20 PM EST
    Squeaky, I'd use a different analogy; Two guys get in a bar fight. One swings a pool cue, and hits two bystanders. The other guy swings a chair and hits three bystanders. Hitting fewer bystanders does not make you "good". They are both jerks Jondee, The continuous wars work to many parties benefit. Various muslim groups, and Us.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#56)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 06:18:40 PM EST
    I saw something a few weeks ago about Hezbollah using american made anti tank weapons.
    Google has it on free republic and LGF. At free republic someone said that they saw it on CNN. Interesting that the wingnuts are promoting the story. I wouldn't be surprised if they did have US made weapons either. Weapons dealers are the low of the low. I even wouldn't be surprised if they were sold by an Israeli. Arms dealers are such slime that they could rationalize selling weapons, to anyone, even knowing that they would used against their own family. Their justification would be 'well they are going to get the stuff anyway, I might as well be the one to profit. At least I will have the money to pay for a decent funeral.'

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 06:43:13 PM EST
    Roger's Iran Contra example is an excellent example of what goes on behind "the legend." And a very rotten, barely opened, can-of-worms it was. Arms dealers in bed with drug dealers in bed with money launderers in bed with C.I.A contract thugs in bed with Arabs in bed with Israelis.. All jostling for a piece like flies on carrion. What a cottage industry war is.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 06:53:34 PM EST
    Two guys get in a bar fight. One swings a pool cue, and hits two bystanders. The other guy swings a chair and hits three bystanders.
    More like the other guy and his friends swing ten pool tables destroying the whole block and everyone on it. And then go on to find out where all the first guy's relatives live and destroy them and the surrounding area where they live.

    Re: New Documents Show Vietnam Atrocities by U.S. (none / 0) (#59)
    by roger on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 06:57:35 PM EST
    Squeaky, What I saw was aa little more mainstream, I never read LGF or FR. I also think that you've overdone the analogy. Other than that, I'd refer you to Jondees post above. There are people on all sides who benefit from this.