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Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen

Karl Rove spoke at the Aspen Ideas Festival Sunday. Aspen Daily News reporter Troy Hooper has the full run-down. There's vintage Karl:

Karl Rove praised the military and civilian leadership's flexibility in managing the Iraq war, which has required field commanders to adapt to unconventional combat styles and means of rebuilding communities. Rove noted that his own cousin has served three tours of duty over there.

There's Rove in spin mode on Iraq:

"You know it's not going to be U.S. style. It's not going to be a Midwest small-town atmosphere. It's going to be Iraq with deeply felt sectarian strains with bad guys and people with lots of guns, but it is going to be a functioning society. It already is a distinct improvement on the society that existed."

There's hyperbolic Rove, giving Bush credit for outing North Korea as a danger:

Rove took exception to [Walter] Isaacson's suggestion that the United States has taken a soft line against North Korea, insisting the world is even cognizant of North Korea because Bush identified it as part of the "axis of evil."

There's double-speak Rove, on the Hamdan decision:

It gives us not a clear path of what the court would find acceptable but it gives us some guidance as to what the court would find acceptable.

There was even an honest Rove:

"I'm a hothead. I admit it.

Then there was Rove the snarly one, portraying the estate tax as helpful to the little guy and small business.

While defending the Bush administration's designs to repeal the estate tax, Rove reversed the common conception that nixing the tax would benefit only the nation's wealthiest, arguing it would have its greatest benefits on small- and medium-sized business owners and their families.

When some audience members made their disagreement audibly known, Rove snapped at them: "With all due respect to the people who fly in and out of Aspen on your jets, hey you've got accountants and smart-thinking guys who can help you construct your estates so it has a minimal (tax) impact, good for you."

Finally, there was Rove on global warming, making Bush out to be a great environmentalist:

"We're investing in the reduction of greenhouse gases in the most cost efficient way we can which is providing technologies to developing countries. For example, we're partnering with the Indians on the development of the first zero-emissions coal plant because India has vast coal reserves and they are going to use them. ....He added that Bush is dedicated to financing global-warming research and he advocated nuclear power.

How did the crowd react to all these Roves:

Throughout the discussion -- attended by an eclectic mix of big thinkers including Supreme Court Justice Stephen G. Breyer, Gen. Colin Powell and Washington Post vice president Benjamin Bradlee -- a portion of the audience booed, hissed and laughed in mockery at Rove while another portion of the crowd lent Rove unswerving support. Still others in attendance displayed mixed reactions, clapping on some Rove points and voicing their disapproval of others.

[Cross-posted at 5280.com]

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  • Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dusty on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 01:51:46 AM EST
    Seems Krazy Karl was his usual self..I love the part about Bush and the enviornment..If anyone is buying it..I have some land in FL you might be interested in..

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 03:59:05 AM EST
    BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Five U.S. soldiers were charged in a rape and multiple murder case that has outraged Iraqis, as documents obtained by Reuters on Sunday showed the rape victim was aged 14, and not over 20 as U.S. officials have said. ... Her identity card and a copy of her death certificate obtained by Reuters, however, show she was 14.
    Rove spin
    Karl Rove praised the military and civilian leadership's flexibility in managing the Iraq war, which has required field commanders to adapt to unconventional combat styles and means of rebuilding communities.
    The reality that he's helped to create
    Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, balancing a dependence on U.S. firepower with a need to show Iraqis he is in charge, has voiced frustration with a mounting number of cases against Americans and wants a review of their immunity from Iraqi law. ... Since revelations in March of a U.S. probe into whether Marines killed 24 people at Haditha, Mahmudiya is the fifth case of serious crime being investigated by the U.S. military. In all, 16 soldiers have been charged with murder in the past month or so -- as many as in the previous three years of fighting.
    Rove spin
    "You know it's not going to be U.S. style. It's not going to be a Midwest small-town atmosphere.
    The reality that he's helped to create
    The American soldiers accused of raping an Iraqi girl and then murdering her and her family may have provoked an insurgent revenge plot in which two of their comrades were abducted and beheaded last month, it has been claimed.
    Rove spin
    It's going to be Iraq with deeply felt sectarian strains with bad guys and people with lots of guns, but it is going to be a functioning society. It already is a distinct improvement on the society that existed."
    The reality that he's helped to create
    Now, however, residents of the neighbouring town of Mahmoudiyah have told The Sunday Telegraph that their kidnap was carried out to avenge the attack on a local girl Abeer Qassim Hamza, 15, and her family. They claim that insurgents have vowed to kidnap and kill another eight American troops to exact a 10-to-one revenge for the rape and murder of the girl. Two dead soldiers, eight more to go, vow avengers of Iraqi girl's rape


    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#3)
    by john horse on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 04:27:55 AM EST
    I'm starting to think that what Bush or Bush administration officials need when they speak to the public is to bring along a doublespeak interpreter to help translate what they say. So when Rove says of the Iraqi government "You know it's not going to be U.S. style. It's not going to be a Midwest small-town atmosphere. . . it is going to be a functioning society. " what exactly is he saying? Does anyone remember when our goal was to create a Mideast democracy (raise your purple thumbs if you do)? In Iraq everytime Bush fails to achieve a goal, he just replaces it with another goal and we are expected to erase that abandoned goal from our memory. So now the reason we are continuing to occupy Iraq is not to create a democracy but to have a "functioning" government, even if that government is a repressive authoritarian regime as these examples from a recent LA Time article illustrate. Brutality and corruption are rampant in Iraq's police force, with abuses including the rape of female prisoners, the release of terrorism suspects in exchange for bribes, assassinations of police officers and participation in insurgent bombings . . . Officers also have beaten prisoners to death, been involved in kidnapping rings, sold thousands of stolen and forged Iraqi passports and passed along vital information to insurgents, the Iraqi documents allege. Is this a functioning society? Seems more disfunctional to me. This is what over 2500 Americans have lost their lives for?

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 06:03:19 AM EST
    I guess he mentions his cousin serving there as some sort of a guilt complex for his having avoided any military service at all, including getting deferments during Vietnam! The man is a class A jackass!

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 06:20:52 AM EST
    I thought greenhouse gases and global warming were a liberal hoax (perpetrated by "the Left" that took over in '68)? Obviously Rovesputin and Shrub know that they'll be laughed out of town if they take that public stance, so they just let The Swift-Scientists at Faux, on talk radio, and at Powerline push the unofficial positition while they feign public concern. The only way you can not know how f.o.s this crew is is to not pay attention.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 06:34:04 AM EST
    I thought greenhouse gases and global warming were a liberal hoax (perpetrated by "the Left" that took over in '68)? Global warming is not a hoax, the claim that humans are responsible for it is. And no, not '68. The Socialists didn't hijack the Enviro movement until after the Soviet Union fell apart.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 06:47:04 AM EST
    claim that humans are responsible for it is.
    Wrong - 99% of all scientists not funded by MobilExxon and their ilk believe its man made. But the corporatists dont want anything to interfere with their short term profits. They have no concern for what will happen in 30-50 years. So the Rethugs, the WSJ, the Cato Institute and all other pro coporate enties are trying their best to muddy the waters.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 06:54:24 AM EST
    I'm starting to think that what Bush or Bush administration officials need when they speak to the public is to bring along a doublespeak interpreter to help translate what they say. No. Its just you. But as the Token Conservatve here, I'll simplify stuff for you...again. So when Rove says of the Iraqi government "You know it's not going to be U.S. style. It's not going to be a Midwest small-town atmosphere. . . it is going to be a functioning society. " what exactly is he saying? Does anyone remember when our goal was to create a Mideast democracy? It still is. What Rove is saying, and what this administration has always said, is that we don't expect Iraq to be a Western Democracy. Their cultural values will shape it, much the same way Japan's shaped hers. And the more they evolve into a democracy, they more they will discard aspects of their society that we consider backward and brutal. Its a growing process and will take time - hell, it took America almost a century to abandon the hypocrisy of slavery. Be patient. An Arab Democracy in Iraq will transform the Middle East and co-opt Wahhabi Islam. The only long term solution against the Jihad is too attack the root causes - give the suicide bomber something to live for. Reform his civilization or he will destroy ours. Cheers Fen [token conservative]

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:01:10 AM EST
    Wrong - 99% of all scientists not funded by MobilExxon and their ilk believe its man made. Wrong - 99% of all scientists not funded by the Government Grant Industry and their ilk believe its not man made. And its amusing your first argument is a false Appeal to Authority. Love the way you discard all cynical climate scientists as being on the take.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:06:14 AM EST
    There is no need to simplify. Bush couldn't care less what kind of government Iraq has as long as it is a puppet of the US. Bringing Democracy to the ME has never been an aim of this administraion. A functioning government in Iraq means to Bush one that does what it is told and implements the neoliberal economic policies promolgated by Bremer. The real motivations for invading Iraq are a confluence of a number of issues. 1. Control the Iraqi oil and gas reserves making sure they are not shipped off to China, but are made available to the Western multinationals 2. expression of US power in an effort to control China and offset the increasing influence of energy rich Russia [remember the bozos who came up with this diaster are old time cold warriors] and 3. help Israel.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:09:35 AM EST
    Love the way you discard all cynical climate scientists as being on the take.
    Thats because they are on the take. They are being paid not to do original researh but to disseminate anything that muddys the waters. Give me a list of those not on the take. There are a couple but not many.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#13)
    by marty on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:09:42 AM EST
    "The only long term solution against the Jihad is too attack the root causes - give the suicide bomber something to live for." Hmmm....attacking the root causes, hmm? If I am remembering correctly, anytime a Democrat mentioned this since 9/11, he was immediately excoriated and condemned for "excusing" the terrorists, for not being tough enough on them, for looking for "excuses" for them, etc. Yes, you are a token conservative....and just like the rest, utterly incapable of seeing the hypocrisy of your position.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:12:45 AM EST
    US government polices in the ME over the last 50 years or so have produced the terrorists we now fight. Bush though is setting a record for aiding the terrorist recruiting cause. We will pay dearly for this diaster for decades to come.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:21:45 AM EST
    I see you have no list. Gee I'm shocked shocked I tell you Every scientist being paid by MobilExxon and its associated Institutes is on the take because they are being paid to expouse a certain view. They have also be unsuccessful in scientificall disproving the views held by the mainstream scientists. For a discussion of the hockey stick go read Realclimate.com for a scientific analysis that proves ye again that you have no idea of what you are talking about. otherwise youre wasting you time just repeating the corporate talking points.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:34:26 AM EST
    Rove took exception to [Walter] Isaacson's suggestion that the United States has taken a soft line against North Korea, insisting the world is even cognizant of North Korea because Bush identified it as part of the "axis of evil."
    Is it reasonable to suggest that Rove was forced to admit that our forced occupation of Iraq was barbaric and unjustified at these UN Meetings. Forced to admit atrocities that are debatable war crimes in closed door meetings. Not even a sanction could be agreed upon.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#17)
    by cmpnwtr on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:56:37 AM EST
    The portrayals of this event describe a ruling American oligarchy is having a conversation with itself.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 08:06:33 AM EST
    Fenrisulven is a chatterer and limited to four comments a day on TalkLeft. Please see the comment rules.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 08:26:24 AM EST
    loosely defined as one who both holds opposing views from those expressed by TalkLeft and Posts numerous times a day with the intent of dominating, re-directing or hijacking the thread; or Posts numerous times a day and insults or calls other commenters names or repeatedly makes the same point with the effect of annoying other commenters.
    My intent of was not to dominate, re-direct, spam or hijack the thread - I was merely responding to points raised by others.
    or insults or calls other commenters names
    I don't believe I have[?]. In fact, I've refused to take flamebait after being called "idiot, neocon, etc" I'm only here b/c Captain Ed directed my to your site for reasonable and sensible Left commentary, which is hard to find these days. Perhaps he was talking more about you than your crew. Regardless, I will respect the rules of your site.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:04:24 AM EST
    The IDEAS Festival??? His opinion about Iraq isn't even an idea, it's a delusion. I love how it's either black or white for these guys, everything. The reality there is NOT better or worse or anything compared to how it used to be under Saddaam -- it is the mad, chaotic, sectarian, murderous mess that is post-invasion, post-Saddaam Iraq. In other words, it is the U.S. gift to the people of Iraq. Trying to say it's better or worse than under Saddaam, making those comparisons that are empty of reason and concern with reality (and not our wishful desires for reality) is like saying as a bug it's better to get stepped on than poisoned to death. It's delusional, cowardly, childish, and deeply darkly comical in it's cluelessness.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#21)
    by desertswine on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:07:22 AM EST
    That picture of Rove is really giving me the creeps; the willies; the heebee jeebies; the fantods.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:24:03 AM EST
    Global warming is not a hoax, the claim that humans are responsible for it is.
    there are zero peer reviewed papers that do not think global warming is caused by humans. The consensus among climatologists is it is, tho they disagree slightly on exact methods. Even bushco agrees.
    Thomas Graedel, an industrial ecologist at Yale University, has reviewed the US government's climate change research strategy and says the report's acknowledgment of a human influence on global warming is encouraging.
    "Well over 98% of scientists competent in this area would agree with that," he told New Scientist.


    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:38:55 AM EST
    So when Rove says of the Iraqi government "You know it's not going to be U.S. style. It's not going to be a Midwest small-town atmosphere. . . it is going to be a functioning society. " what exactly is he saying?
    Ok, I'll take a shot at this one. He's saying that a US style, midwest small town type of government isn't one to provide a functioning society? The Bush admin has been one failing contradiction after another. The invasion was preceded by a psyops campaign that convinced the average military Iraqis to surrender rather than fight. Jobs, pay and security were insured if they cooperated. They did, Garner pursued the plan and Bush pulled Garner to put Bremer in place. Bremer turned all of those family supporting wage earners away, de-Baathified the professionals from their careers and began the total selloff of Iraqi natural resources to American Coalition corporate interests. The early days had a natural movement of locals arming and protecting their own neighborhoods as small militias. Bush felt this was threatening and lost tens of thousands of lives preventing them. Now, it seems to be one of his ideas to get the Iraqis to begin protecting themselves. Every chance for success there has been avoided. What else are we to think but he does this deliberately?

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:41:20 AM EST
    Sorry Sailor - I'd love to discuss that with you, but as you noticed above, I've been designated a "chatterer" and my freedom to express myself here has been limited by the intolerance of your comrades. Cheers Fen

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:43:32 AM EST
    When you hear that latter phrase, you know you are dealing with a morally superior Pecksniff.
    The phrase appears as the title of a 1955 American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) pamphlet (The AFSC is an organization founded by the Religious Society of Friends (also known as Quakers) Nice of PBR to slander a whole religion and others who he disagrees with, but can't link to any facts to support his trolling.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:43:36 AM EST
    Fenrisulven, you can come back tomorrow if you'd like. Thank you for respecting the 4 comments a day limit.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:50:01 AM EST
    Okay, I see that responses I made before I was designated a chatterer have been removed. That tells me the policy here is more about censoring opposing pov's than protecting this forum from trolls. Thats really sad Jeralyn. From what Captain Ed said, I had higher expectations of you and your sire. Don't bother to ban me, I won't be back.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:58:20 AM EST
    Fenrisulven, You wrote: Wrong - 99% of all scientists not funded by the Government Grant Industry and their ilk believe its not man made. This comment is SOOOOOOOO lacking in basic logic, it's off the charts. The Government Grand Industry (the definition of which is certainly debatable) PALES compared to the oil industry. Everything pales compared to the oil industry. They are not even in the same universe of financial incentive. That a few government grants go to climate scientists who believe man-made GW is a threat does not, in any way, measure up to the financial power and self-interest in the status quo of the oil industry. Additionally, there hasn't been a government in this country that has EVER treated global warming with any degree of serious. So arguing that this same government's "grant industry" is waging a battle against the oil industry AND the government, to spread some false gospel of the global warming danger, simply doesn't hold an ounce of logical water. The oil industry's money, and future profits yet to be pumped, are CLEARLY a greater, more immediate and material incentive to downplay the danger. That is just simple logic and rationality. You seem to believe in some nefarious environmentally extremist force as potent as the oil industry. Relax, they don't exist. Big oil has all the power. Breathe. It's okay. P.S.) I think you may have gotten Jearalyn on a bad day. Keep rationally and politely making your case, and I think she'll soften up

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#29)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 10:58:39 AM EST
    Fenrisulven, I laid out facts and attributions, including your own fearful leader's factual findings. Everything you said about global warming was proven wrong by my links and GW's on commissions. It ain't about us, it ain't a size contest, it's about the truth.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#30)
    by desertswine on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 11:04:10 AM EST
    "It already is a distinct improvement on the society that existed." - Rove
    BAGHDAD, July 9 -- Shiite Muslim militiamen rampaged through a Sunni Arab neighborhood in Baghdad early Sunday morning, killing more than 50 people and discarding bodies in the streets, according to Iraqi officials and witnesses. Hours later, attackers struck back, detonating two car bombs near a Shiite mosque.
    The human capacity for self-delusion is seemingly infinite.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 11:14:28 AM EST
    desertwine-It is not clear who the murderers are. The setup to malign Sadr's Mahdi army is a given at this point. There are allegations that the Sunni deaths were done by Sunni's to foment chaos and bring down the puppet government. Rove's spin is at such odds from the everyday reality in Iraq that it is embarrassing. He is not far from Baghdad Bob only far less comical.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 11:44:41 AM EST
    Pabst - O.k, I think we get it. Rove wasnt indicted and alot of "moonbats" wanted him to be, or still think he will be. You really dont have to keep reposting that.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 11:49:22 AM EST
    desertswine: That picture of Rove is really giving me the creeps; the willies; the heebee jeebies; the fantods. If you produced that reaction from people, you'd probably start a WOT and invent boogeymen to distract people too... Imagine finding rove in your closet or under your bed! He's already out to destroy our way of life. :-(

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 01:03:43 PM EST
    There we have it. Good to know that some who have no military experience are competent to opine about the war. No less they also make war decisions. Good thing that those goal posts are light enough to not strain your aged war torn body ppj.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 01:11:51 PM EST
    Clinton is spelled c-a-k-e, as in 'let them eat...". No? ^^ OO

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#37)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 01:25:07 PM EST
    ppj - I suggest you crack a history book or two and then get back to us. Lincoln "served" in The Blackhawk War of 1832. You can read about it in Mead's essay on Lincolnianism.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#38)
    by desertswine on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 01:29:20 PM EST
    ppj - I suggest you crack a history book or two...
    Wasn't Roosevelt a cripple?

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 01:33:08 PM EST
    The bleeding heart liberal was faking it. Rush did a whole show on it.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 03:33:08 PM EST
    rumi, have you read Bremer's book? the decision to eliminate the old Iraqi army was a tough one and people will debate it for quite a while. I understand Bremer's POV on this and judging by the track record of the guys that were brought back to "pacify" fallujah, Bremer made the right call. As for the intense de ba athification, my take after reading Bremer's book is that this was really driven by the Iraqi's themselves. Bremer discusses this in great detail and it's worth slogging through the book to obtain a different perspective. One point that Bremer makes early on is that Saddam had something like 11,000 generals in his army. We have around 600 I believe. So many of these officers were simply corrupt graft receipients who had no military qualifications. Are there dissenting viewpoints? Certainly bing West argues that some of the original Iraqi army units were intact and could have been utilized by the co altion. Again, looking at the track record I believe the right choice was made. No affair of state with this level of impact will escape criticism. People still criticize Eisenhower and FDR, even though we won. what matters is the net result and we are no where near assessing that at this point. This war is interesting in so many ways and we have learned quite a bit from our efforts in Iraq. How history will judge this remains to be seen, but bear in mind history is written by the winners.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 05:52:20 PM EST
    Skip- No, I haven't read it yet but I've tried to catch as many pieces, parts and interviews as possible. I can see both sides of many situations, even if I disagree with the opposing one but my view of Bremer is so negative that I feel I can't believe anything he says. Simple credibility. There were just too many issues he was involved in that promoted cronyistic profits over people and the complete disregard of his responsibility to the future of Iraq. After all the ways he screwed the Iraqi people he didn't even have the courage to walk out of that country in the light of day. I'll tell you one that did shock me for going against my preconceived bias and that was Ledeen's daughter, of all people.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 06:52:45 PM EST
    I will admit that Bremer's book was a tough slog through some tortured prose. What I was interested in was his take on the putative Iraqi leaders that he worked with. Bremer spoke highly of Adnan Pachachi who I have very little use for. The real sorrow in all of this is that the Iraqis simply do not have a charismatic leader to rally around.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 12:18:40 AM EST
    Reference: Posted by JimakaPPJ July 10, 2006 01:52 PM Vietnam Vet - What a wonderfully dumb comment. Can you, for starters, spell Clinton....? If you had to get rid of all the folks who didn't serve, there wouldn't be many left. If you want to talk about Presidents, besides Clinton, you can start with Lincoln, add Wilson and FDR, three pretty good'uns. -------------------------------------- Well, its an open ended question as to who the dumb one is! The subject matter here is Mr. Rove, not Mr. Clinton. No one said anything about "getting rid of anyone." You are just pissed off because someone posted a less than supportive comment about one of the administration's hit men. Also remember, ad hominem attacks on others is the first sign of a simple mind! So, again, the question is still open as to who is dumb here.

    Re: Karl Rove Gets Cheered and Jeered in Aspen (none / 0) (#44)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:17:54 AM EST
    Ladies and gentlemen, I call to your attention the maggot ridden, putrifying, spinning corpse of irony:
    Isaacson posed the question in the same way [President Bill] Clinton had Friday night. Issacson, parroting Clinton, pointed out that if a member of the Clinton administration had outed a CIA officer, "You'd be sending people to demand impeachment. You'd be playing it better than the Democrats can play it against you."
    Rove then said that after a "careful, thoughtful, aggressive investigation," then the person responsible should be fired.