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Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder Case

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:02:27 AM EST
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Update: The affidavit in support of the arrest warrant detailing the alleged crimes is here.

Update: Steven D. Green of North Carolina has been charged in federal court with rape and murder:

Federal prosecutors charged a veteran of the Iraq war with murder and rape Monday in connection with the killing of an Iraqi woman and members of her family.
Steven D. Green, a 21-year-old former private first class who was discharged from the Army, appeared in a federal magistrate's courtroom in Charlotte Monday.

More here.

****
The Washington Post has new details in the case of the five U.S. soldiers charged with raping an Iraqi girl and killing her family in Mahmudiyah.

Abeer Qasim Hamza was 15 years old. It appears she had been targeted. After raping and killing her they tried to set her on fire.

Death certificates viewed Sunday at the Mahmudiyah hospital identified the victims as Fakhriyah Taha Muhsin, 34, killed by gunshots to her head; Qasim Hamza Raheem, 45, whose head was "smashed" by bullets; Hadeel Qasim Hamza, 7, Abeer's sister, shot; and Abeer, shot in the head. Abeer's body also showed burns, the death certificate noted.

While the soldiers first blamed the Sunnis for the rape and murders, it turns out the family was Sunni. The investigation began on June 23 after two of the soldiers decided to talk.

The family still isn't talking to the media:

"What is the benefit of publishing this story?" said Abeer's uncle, Bassem. "People will read about this crime. And they will forget about it the next day."

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    Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder Case | 45 comments (45 topical)
    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:58:19 AM EST
    If found guilty, they should be thrown in the klink and the key tossed away. Forever.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#2)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 10:01:03 AM EST
    This case is starting to look like I had feared it would. The lead from today's papers:
    Fifteen-year-old Abeer Qasim Hamza was afraid, her mother confided in a neighbor. As pretty as she was young, the girl had attracted the unwelcome attention of U.S. soldiers manning a checkpoint that the girl had to pass through almost daily in their village in the south-central city of Mahmudiyah, her mother told the neighbor. Abeer told her mother again and again in her last days that the soldiers had made advances toward her, a neighbor, Omar Janabi, said this weekend, recounting a conversation he said he had with the girl's mother, Fakhriyah, on March 10.
    The WaPo buries this on page A15 and in a single line on the website; the Star-Ledger does have it A1 above the fold, but only in the print version. I suspect the MSM would desperately like to see this story go f'g away. But, what appears to have happened is this (my conclusions, drawn from media reports): Several troopers of the 502 manned the same checkpoint on a regular basis. They saw a very pretty girl who had to pass through their checkpoint on a regular basis. They began paying her unwanted attention (who knows what that was; the point is it was unwelcome). At some point, the girl and her family became aware that (a) she was the object of the soldiers' desire and (b) they were likely to come for her. (b) necessarily implies that either they said something to the effect of "give it up or else" or that "you must be an insurgent, not wanting to have anything to do with us" (or something similar). By this time, they knew their attention was unwelcome, but they didn't care. The girl's family sought to have a neighbor hide her so, when the Americans came, they would not get her. For whatever reason* that fell through. The Americans came, raped her, killed her family, tried to burn her body, and covered up their crime by attributing it to sectarian violence. In the victims' culture, rape is a matter of family dishonor which can only be dissolved by blood revenge. (Inference: since the girl's family was wiped out by the soldiers, it likely fell to more distant relatives to take care of this expiation.) A couple of months pass. The same unit continues to patrol in the same area. Three of the soldiers are killed while on outpost/checkpoint duty, one immediately. The other two are captured, moved, tortured, beheaded, mutilated, and their bodies left in the open and booby-trapped (by inference, left out for the dogs and vultures). The soldiers' conspiracy to rape, murder and obstruct justice comes out only when one of their fellow platoon-mates breaks the story during a counseling session post the capture and killing of the soldiers. One of the soldiers in the platoon heard/knew about it, another saw them getting blood off their clothes. One of the conspirators allegedly confesses after the investigation gets going. Conclusion: The soldiers were killed as a matter of revenge by extended family and/or locals knew who exactly whom they were targeting. This was personal. Interestingly, early media reports on the capture and abduction of the soldiers indicated one of them had been alone on an outpost. It is drilled into every soldier and officer to never, never, never leave a single soldier as an outpost. This is for all sorts of useful reasons, but most of all so loneliness, fear of the unknown and dark (or sleep) will not overcome the soldier performing his duty. If it is true that one of the soldiers was left alone - someone violated this cardinal rule, and I'd be willing to put $5 on that someone knowing there was something coming from the locals for those three. Why is it that several hundred comments come several times a week to dissect a bad case brought against some white boy jocks at an elite school by a politically ambitious DA who wants to keep his job, based only upon the cry rape of an exotic dancer, yet no f'g one wants to talk about a bunch of "America's Finest"** conspiring to break into a home, satisfy their lust and rape a child (having no doubt received training classes on societal taboos and customs and things to avoid), kill an entire family with automatic weapons, try to burn the evidence of their crime, and then collude and conspire to cover up their crimes, all the while acting under cover of (and facilitating their crimes by) the authority given them as soldiers? That some of them received frontier justice is of only passing moment - what matters is the great caterwauling which went on when those criminals masquerading as soldiers were hailed as heroes and thousands of their fellow soldiers went on a high-tempo operation (formerly known as a rampage) trying to find them, and the horror we were told to feel when their commanders circumlocuted the facts of how they died (to be fair, they probably didn't yet know why) and that the evil insurgents (that's spelled l-o-c-a-l i-n-h-a-b-i-t-a-n-t-s for the slower among you) had booby-trapped their corpses. If there's any justification for rage, it's against the government which sent these jokers into a foreign country, then made sure the rules were vague enough that they could probably escape liability for the war crimes committed by the soldiers they misled, and ruined the Army such that only dolts, thugs and misfits would consider joining. --- * interestingly, the neighbor didn't want to believe it, saying "Americans don't do that sort of thing". ** N.B. The 502nd Infantry is historically and presently a part of the 101st Airborne Division, the famed "Screaming Eagles"....

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#3)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 10:09:45 AM EST
    You updated while I was posting. I'm gratified to see that the discharged soldier was arrested. He (unlike the Gitmo captives) will be appropriately charged with a non-made-up-for-the-occasion-crime, get a lawyer to represent him, receive a swift and fair trial, and be able to call witnesses and see and hear the evidence against him. We'll see how it turns out and, more importantly, whether anyone deigns to cover it. At least he's not running around any more.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#4)
    by Punchy on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 10:13:12 AM EST
    This is too easy to dissect. Mahmudiyah learned from Haditha, who learned from Abu Grahib. In the U.S. Army/Marines, you can run with near-impunity. Yeah, a few unlucky get caught, and then take ALL the blame...but for the most part, killing/raping/burning/shooting CHILDREN...it's just part of the "Iraq Experience".

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#5)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 10:19:05 AM EST
    Not an occasion for humor, Punchy.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#6)
    by Punchy on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 11:44:10 AM EST
    It's not so much humor as sarcasm and cynicism. Besides, I'm not writing anything you won't hear verbatim from Jim or JR by the end of the day.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 12:20:43 PM EST
    If bushco hadn't invaded Iraq, without provocation or justification btw, and these soldiers hadn't been sent there this would not have happened. The administration and everyone who supported and supports the invasion and occupation of Iraq are accessories to these tragedies, and just as guilty as the soldiers they will now excoriate and punish. If you were one of those supporters and you really want to know why these things happen... take a long hard look in the nearest mirror. And think about this when you look at your daughters and your families or anyone elses daughters and families.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 12:24:26 PM EST
    Nothing changes "..... The scandal over torture and murder in the Philippines , for example, may have led Americans to rethink their country's world wide ambitions, but it did not. Instead they came to accept the idea that their soldiers might have to commit atrocities in order to subdue insurgents and win wars. Loud protests followed revelations of the abuses Americans had committed in the Philippines but, in the end, those protests faded away. They were drowned out by voices insisting that any abuses must have been aberrations and that to dwell on them would show weakness and a lack of patriotism." pager 106 Overthrow: by Stephan Kinzer

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:01:11 PM EST
    edger writes:
    If bushco hadn't invaded Iraq, without provocation or justification
    And if your Aunt had bal*s she would be your uncle. This is sad from many directions. One of the saddest is that people like you will use it to blame America. I wonder how many of Saddam's soldiers where/would have been even charged, much less tried and punished. So let's have a trial and hear the facts as best possible. We have a working system for such things.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:12:54 PM EST
    Where are those who once spoke in outrage of "rape chambers" now that the accused are American?

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#11)
    by Patrick on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:22:41 PM EST
    Where are those who once spoke in outrage of "rape chambers" now that the accused are American?
    Rape should be punished, and by the sounds of it, will be. That is a sad analogy, though I suspect many here might agree with it.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:24:53 PM EST
    One of the saddest is that people like you will use it to blame America.
    For the millionth time America is not Bush and Cheney, but you know that dont you. Being the true coward you are you hide behind the guise of patriotism. No the saddest thing is that the actions of this administration has made us much less safe and more hated by more people.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:32:51 PM EST
    One of the saddest is that people like you will use it to blame America.
    They are not blaming America - they are rightly blaming Bush. I do not judge these poor soldiers that have been over there 3 and 4 times. It must be AWFUL!!!!! This brillant idea to invade a country that did nothing to us was Bush and his minion's. Don't bring up the resolution - we have already been over that road. The resolution did not say that Bush HAD to invade!!!!! Bush is the "decider". Video that could almost be about this incident.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:37:03 PM EST
    "People like you will use it to blame America." Another chickensh*thawk who desperately wants people to believe that a president that 50 mil + people voted against = "America". Of course the previous administration wasnt "America", it was just "Clinton wagging the dog", "Clinton trying to distract everyone" etc

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:37:27 PM EST
    We should have a trial and hear the facts as best possible. It's happened before in other similar circumstances, and it will again one of these days, when the country comes back to it's senses.
    ...counsel says we were not aware of the extermination of the millions. He would give you the excuse: We were only aware of the extermination of the hundreds. Does that make us any the less guilty? Maybe we didn't know the details. But if we didn't know, it was because we didn't want to know.
    Right now, we have a broken unworking system for such things.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#16)
    by Peaches on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:48:14 PM EST
    Chris Hedges
    In wartime, perversion and hedonism spiral out of control. The comradeship of soldiering seeks to turn the very act of love into something akin to defecation. This is because the great "that which cannot be subsumed into communal life" is love. So much of the psychosis of war involves an active effort to destroy feelings of tenderness and compassionate love. In a wartime society, the moral order is flipped upside down; prostitution, rape, and abuse all rise as the levels of violence rises. That happened in every conflict I was in. In Serbia, for instance, as the violence proliferated you also had a proliferation of pornography and snuff films. It always goes hand in hand, because what you are destroying is the humanity of the other; you are turning the other into an object, which is precisely what torture or pornography does.
    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#17)
    by Al on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 01:51:39 PM EST
    This is sad from many directions. (PPJ)
    It's not sad, PPJ, it's bloody outrageous and unacceptable. It is also what happens in a real war, not the John Wayne fantasy that only exists inside your head. From the point of view of the surviving family of the victims of these crimes, those soldiers represent the entire American occupying force. And who can blame them? They are wearing American uniforms, using American weapons and ammunition, clearly sent there by the American government. Even the British army thinks the American soldiers are brutal and arrogant and treat the locals as untermenschen. The only way to stop this madness is to end the occupation.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#19)
    by Punchy on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 02:25:13 PM EST
    Do you really believe that you leftist scum?
    What I believe is that it was Abu Grahib in Arpil 2004. But FEW learned from it, eh? Because now we have Haditha, with bullet holes in children. We have Mahmudiyah now, with bullet holes in the heads of children. Is this every solider? Of course not. But will this be the last investigation of murder? I doubt it. These guys don't deserve these year-long, multiple-year deployments. It's CLEAR that it's turning normal, everyday 21-year olds into rapists and murderers (allegedly). THAT demonstrates exactly why we should not remain there. I'm now off to burn the flag, as you instructed, because it's what all progressives do in their free time.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 02:55:43 PM EST
    Atrocities in Iraq: 'I killed innocent people for our government' If you go to the link, down at the bottom of the page, added to everything else the page above it documents, you'll find this:
    Raped And Murdered: Victim Was 15 year Old Child
    ...
    He found Abeer sprawled dead in a corner, her hair and a pillow next to her consumed by fire, and her dress pushed up to her neck. Continue...
    Continue if you want. We should have a trial one day. ...think about this when you look at your daughters and your families or anyone elses daughters and families.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 04:46:20 PM EST
    kermar - What don't you understand about:
    So let's have a trial and hear the facts as best possible. We have a working system for such things.
    After the conviction we will have plenty of time for rage. In fact, I will join you. bigunit12 - And our system has now investigated and arrested. Guilt and innocence are yet to be determined. Yet edger, and now you, have wasted no time in attacking the country. I say again. That is sad. Tell me. Why do you not extend the same legal courtesy to our troops that you want to extend to the terrorists in GITMO?

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#23)
    by Al on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 06:26:43 PM EST
    PPJ, out of curiosity I tried to find the postings you were supposedly responding to. Kermar only said something about Saddam's rape chambers, and bigunit12 has not posted anything as far as I can see. What are you talking about, PPJ?

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 06:38:13 PM EST
    Al - Jeralyn did a bit of thread cleaning, although bigunit12 made no attacks on the country, and I also have not, unless somehow cheney/bush = 'country'. Same old same old, you know?

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 08:10:02 PM EST
    SD writes:
    For the millionth time America is not Bush and Cheney, but you know that dont you. Being the true coward you are you hide behind the guise of patriotism.
    SD, I think I shall remind you one more time that I served 10 years in Naval Aviation. If I remember correctly you have never served. So when you speak of patroitism and cowardice you have no basis to write anything. And it is necessary to again remind you, and edger, et al, that when you blame our elected officials, you in fact condemn the country in much of the world's eyes because they are elected and they do represent the country whether you like it or not. Al writes:
    It's not sad, PPJ, it's bloody outrageous and unacceptable. It is also what happens in a real war, not the John Wayne fantasy that only exists inside your head.
    You have no idea of the rage and disgust people within the military, as well as those of us who have served feel when we hear of something like this. But as I noted, we have investigated, arrested and will try them. I would hope that you would at least extend to them the same courtesy of innocence that you routinely extend to those in GITMO. That you do not speaks volumes. BTW - I forget. Have you served?

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 08:19:07 PM EST
    CHAOS THEORY IN A TIME OF WAR The two soldiers who were mutilated and murdered in June could well have been killed in retaliation for the rape/mass murder of the Iraqi family in March. (It seems the suspects are part of the same platoon.) How many other colleagues of these alleged rapists/murderers might be slain in retribution? How many unrelated murders of American soldiers and contractors will spiral out of this incident? Rogue soldiers who behave like feral animals should be held accountable for any harm they cause to innocent civilians. They should also pay a severe penalty for placing their military buddies in harm's way. (And, no, a heartfelt letter of apology to a soldier's mother or wife for getting a son or husband killed in retaliation doesn't erase the debt.) And who's to say that the breeze from this butterfly's wing won't extend to a 707 being blasted out of the sky by a shoe bomber? If the suspects are found guilty, they could face the death penalty. At the least, they ought to spend the rest of their lives in prison. (They should count themselves lucky: In times past, they might have been turned over to the victims' family members for punishment.) This rape/mass murder, which apparently was discussed and carefully planned over a week's time, has nothing to do with PTSD or "snapping" under pressure. It has everything to do with the perpetrators having found an environment that allows them to indulge -- and fine-tune -- their baser instincts. Believe me, we don't want these people walking First Avenue or contributing to the local gene pool. We put rabid animals down or lock them up. I've been concerned for some time that military recruiters are so desperate to meet their quotas that they'll accept questionable candidates, such as gang members (witness the Blood and Crips graffiti that have begun to show up over there), sociopaths, misfits, would-be Timothy McVeighs, and the mentally ill or emotionally unfit. For example, one of the soldiers tried for abuses at Abu Graib had a history of domestic violence in civilian life. No way should he have been assigned to a penal facility in Iraq. Recently, a female reservist on the West Coast who had put up with sexual harassment in her first tour of Iraq was arrested because she refuses to go back to Iraq for another round of abuse. Do we really want -- or need -- to put a high-powered rifle in her hands, especially if she's being harassed by what years ago we used to call "male chauvinist pigs"? Congress needs to investigate just how badly recruiting standards have been allowed to deteriorate. Surely the recruiting procedure involves subjects taking some kind of mental inventory, such as the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI), doesn't it? What kind of personality inventory test results would you see from men who could coldly spend a week planning to rape and kill members of a family they don't even know? Shouldn't the test results have set off alarms, klaxons, whistles, and sirens?

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:00:09 PM EST
    Jim said:
    that when you blame our elected officials, you in fact condemn the country in much of the world's eyes because they are elected and they do represent the country whether you like it or not.
    I can't believe you said that.
    Our founders gave us the freedom to be critical of the government, either written or spoken, because before these actions were subject to punishment under English law.
    Al said:
    It is also what happens in a real war, not the John Wayne fantasy that only exists inside your head.
    He is not saying that Iraq is not a real war, but that you see the war like a John Wayne movie because his movies were not very realistic. Not much blood. I want Bush to be tried, because this WHOLE MESS WAS HIS IDEA. Those guys probably would not have raped or killed anyone if they weren't spreading Bush's gift of democracy.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:01:01 PM EST
    That's not really fair to say, I think, bigunit12. At least one of mine, and of ppj's, were also deleted from other threads.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#30)
    by Rick B on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:14:38 PM EST
    Apparently the 21 year-old who committed the rape and ramrodded(?) the whole nasty rape/murder was discharged early because he had a "personality disorder." It will be interesting to find which one he had, but I'd bet on the one that is a sociopath with no conscience. [Can't find my DSM-IV. My kid is in trouble!] Assuming that is the case, then there are two things that can be surmised from his discharge. First, someone knew he was trouble and wanted rid of him. What did that someone know? Was it a case of getting rid of him without causing a "flap?" In other words, there is a good chance of a cover-up. Or were there other events that led to it. The timing fo his discharge certainly lends strength to a supposition that it was cover-up. Second, he WAS trouble, and was going to commit crimes whereever he was. When someone commits a rape/murder, it isn't the first time he has gone off the rails. Other events led up to this. He sounds like a person with no empathy for others, but someone who was a bit of a natural leader who got others to fall in with his plans. Because of their youth and being away from family and familiar surroundings for the first time, a lot of these young troopers are easily led by someone who seems to know what they are doing. The military problem here is (First) that they accepted someone into the Army who they shouldn't have. But personality disorders are difficult to diagnose, so it is no real surprise. Then, (Second) there was a failure of the chain of command at the point after the rape/murder occurred. I simply don't believe that no NCO knew of it. That kind of thing is talked about. Five troops is four-and-a-half too many to keep a secret after the event. The timing of his discharge (for a personality disorder??) is extremely suspicious. Someone in the chain of command knew there was a really good reason to get rid of him fast. They did it in such a way that it didn't make the news media, thereby protecting the Army and the careers of the NCO's and officers involved. They probably had no clue it was going to happen, but a leader is responsible for EVERYTHING their subordinates do or fail to do, even if the commander is not aware of it. (Damned shame the civilians don't understand that.) But then the Sunnis took revenge on the "family" of the troops that conducted the rape/murder. They set up an attack on a roadblock that lured half of the roadblock members away and left three on guard, then killed one and took proper revenge on the other two who had been left. I'm curious how the Sunnis induced the guys at the roadblock to split their forces that way. It may have been something the Sunnis tried several times until they got a few troops who were pissed at being attacked all the time and made the mistake of splitting their forces to leave only three guys at the roadblock. I have read that it appears like the whole operation was planned by the insurgents to cause such a splitting of forces so that there would only be a few left on guard to deal with. Those three were the real targets. Since it was a Sunni area and since Saddam's army was run by Sunnis and had nearly twenty years of combat experience, it would not have been hard to find someone there to plan that out and take advantage of the obvious youth of the American soldiers and the weaknesses of their commanders. It was classical small-unit soldiering, of the kind that has been done for centuries. It might not have even required several tries. Young troops who have been attacked a lot and have weak commanders can get hot-headed and do stupid things. Whatever else happens, some platoon sergeant, a platoon leader, the First Sergeant and the Company Commander are all looking at finding civilian jobs quite shortly. I hope this is also true for the Battalion Commander, his XO and the Operations Officer. Then whoever in the Battalion S-1 who processed the basic rapist/murderer for early discharge should find real career problems also.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#31)
    by Al on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:31:54 PM EST
    But as I noted, we have investigated, arrested and will try them. I would hope that you would at least extend to them the same courtesy of innocence that you routinely extend to those in GITMO. (PPJ)
    I have never made any statement about the innocence or guilt of the detainees at Guantanamo. Neither have the military or the judiciary, which is usually my point on that subject. I have often asked that the Guantanamo prisoners be charged and tried exactly like the perpetrators of the rape and murders that we are talking about here. Which is the exactly the position that the Supreme Court has taken.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:58:50 AM EST
    Scribe - another fine post. I've been wondering all day why only one criminal was charged, when this was an obvious conspiracy, with malice aforethought? Or is it because the currently serving soldiers cannot be charged by civilian courts? Perhaps. In any event, yet another example of what some people insist on calling "our finest." Is that the best you got? I don't really understand the "we must support the troops" refrain. Why? As for you rabid hijacker trolls, I sincerely wish a similar atrocity upon you and yours. Only then will you undertand what we who have been in war know, and why it is wrong.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 09:11:41 AM EST
    Fools one and all. Persnality disorder is not considered cause for disability in the armed forces. The diagnosis leads to a recommendation of administrative separation without medical disability. During Desert Storm and most likely during this conflict, the combatant commanders ignored this advice as they were "short" of men. These same men fill the ranks of the military and yet typically are marginalized within their own units in light of their peculiar behavior. Be careful here, this Green is a convenient scapegoat, a face on which the same failed military leadership can distract from the systemic criminality and piss-poor decision making at hand.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#34)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 09:32:39 AM EST
    If I remember correctly you have never served. So when you speak of patroitism and cowardice you have no basis to write anything. That's the stupidest comment I've ever read on the internet. It is also indicative of the I'm-a-vet-so-only-my-opinion-counts-on-patriotism-and-cowardice mentality. Jim, when were you EVER in a combat situation that required that you overcome any cowardice and fight with a gun in your hand against an armed enemy combatant?

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#35)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 09:54:10 AM EST
    SD, I think I shall remind you one more time that I served 10 years in Naval Aviation. If I remember correctly you have never served. So when you speak of patroitism and cowardice you have no basis to write anything. And it is necessary to again remind you, and edger, et al, that when you blame our elected officials, you in fact condemn the country in much of the world's eyes because they are elected and they do represent the country whether you like it or not.
    Frankly idont care how many years you served especially since you refuse to tell us how. Secondly you are a blind fascist brown shirt since you equate the country with Bush/Chaney. They are not the country and they sure as hell dont represent me. Just because you proclaim it doesn't make it so except in your little fascist world where you think you are lord and king above all else. You havent the foggiest idea of patriotism is. You just use it as a shield to deflect any all criticism you cannot answer. But in fact you are an insecure little man who in order to feel important and less afraid has to cling on to the all powerful leader against what ever the latest imagininary enemy is. So since you have nothing but your infantile patriotism to hide behind, why dont you on this 4th of July go out in your yard and stick your flag up your A@@ Mine will remain on my house.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#36)
    by Al on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 10:54:10 AM EST
    And it is necessary to again remind you, and edger, et al, that when you blame our elected officials, you in fact condemn the country in much of the world's eyes because they are elected and they do represent the country whether you like it or not.
    PPJ, I think the rest of the world has figured out what kind of a creep George Walker Bush is, pretty much on their own. I also suspect that most people are able to distinguish between the majority of Americans who are thoroughly fed up with, and certainly not represented by said Bush, and the Bush himself.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#37)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 11:18:20 AM EST
    Only an absolute moron with a bumpersticker for a brain would claim that "serving" automatically redeems anyone from ever being a coward, or a liar, or a murderer, or a sadist, or a tyrant. But then, we're talking about a person that believes humanity and morality dont transcend nationality. In other words, "service" to the state is the highest moral duty.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:19:16 PM EST
    Debbie - You have a knack for stating the obvious. I understand that you want Bush impeached. I understand that we have the freedom to criticize. That is not the issue. The issue is being responsible enough to understand that such constant criticism is viewed by people who are not well grounded in US democracy and/or politcs and, seeing Bush/Cheney as representatives of America, think this criticism is given at great scarifice, and is this more important than it is. Thus they see Vietnam in the rearview mirror and Iraq just down the road. Thus your criticism is counterproductive to the war effort and harmful to the troops. Jondee - Nothing in life is "automatic." But not serving says nothing at all about cowardice or patroitism. Now, since you have brought nothing to the table... Al - I understand you think. That does not make you correct. SD writes:
    Frankly idont care how many years you served especially since you refuse to tell us how.
    I have stated that I served slightly over ten years in Naval Aviation. Now. What similar things have you done for your country for ten years. And the answer is?? None. Thought so. And I do love it when you lose control. Che - You know that I have said nothing beyond service branch and time. BTW - Have you ever served? et al - I note none of you want to wait for the trial. et al - I will make this one comment about military people and "patroitism." It was my experience that neither I, or those I served with, thought a lot about patroitism, or spoke about it. We were just there, doing our jobs, supporting each other, actually having fun as young men are prone to do when in groups. I think our patroitism was built it from family, society and school. I believe that to still to be true today in a large part of the country. Last fall I attended a large squadrons reunion, and on the last night a politician addressed the group. After the speech, and a couple of drinks or so, an old friend said, "Damn. I didn't know we were so great." True to form another friend said. "We weren't. You know you can't believe politicans." If you can't understand that as humor, you will never understand those who served, and who serve. May God bless them one and all.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:37:38 PM EST
    My brother "never served" but faced his long, painful illness with a bravery that a flag waving coward lost in jingoistic fantasies like you could never fathom. Everybody goes through the fire in this life. You're no more special or entitled than anyone else no matter how many tax-cuts you get or how much you wrap yourself in a flag that you want any number of others to bleed for.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:22:14 PM EST
    Hmmm.....PPJ turns a alleged brutal Military Rape Murder thread into one about his alleged military service and patriotism. There must be something in common here, ppj would never just hijack a thread to croon about himself. What could it be? Perhaps it is this:
    We were just there, doing our jobs, supporting each other, actually having fun as young men are prone to do when in groups.
    Maybe ppj's secret military service was not only just about peeling potatoes. He was having a good ole time with his buddies. Boys will be boys especially good ole boys. Most who have seen the horrors of war do not make light of their experience, except those incapable of feeling empathy. According to ppj, allegedly serving in the Military is the only way one can understand patriotism and cowardice. Is there a sliding scale that gives extra points for battle experience? Does your fantasy system apply to non american troops as well? How about mercs, terrorists or freedom fighters? And what about codpiece and his draft dodging pals, where do they stand in your brilliantly self congratulatory scheme? The most horrible crime imaginable is for a leader to expose his youth to the horrors of war for no good reason. That shows cowardice and lack of patriotism to the nth degree. Our president, and his supporters here, are incapable of experiencing empathy, the essential ingredient and keystone to notions of patriotism and bravery.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#41)
    by Al on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:25:08 PM EST
    Thus your criticism is counterproductive to the war effort and harmful to the troops.(PPJ)
    What a load of stinking baloney. Who ordered this war? Why on Earth should anyone support an invasion based on lies? And how on Earth does it help the troops to silence criticism of the war? Does it save them from roadside bombs? From ambushes? It's your Bushes and Cheneys who sent them there and who really could not care less about them who are "harmful to the troops". Remember the White House Press Secretary whose reaction to the news that American casualties in Iraq had reached 2,500 was: "It's a number, and every time there's one of these 500 benchmarks people want something." Yeah, that has to be a morale booster for the troops. I reserve my admiration for the military who fought against the Nazis in World War II, and for the soldiers who fought for the independence of their country against a colonial power. And while we're at it, let me state my admiration for firefighters, search and rescue people, Red Cross personnel, humanitarian aid workers in war zones, and others like them who truly risk their lives for no other reason than to help their fellow human beings. I don't know what you actually did those ten years in Naval Aviation. If any of the above fits you, I applaud you. Otherwise, your service is as meaningful to me as if you had been a bus driver: A useful member of society, sure, but nothing really to brag about. But, you know, those who are of such a temperament that they are willing to risk their lives for their fellow human beings are usually extremely modest, and the last to claim to have a monopoly on virtue or patriotism.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:46:47 PM EST
    Facing the enemy teaches things that others who havnt couldnt possibly know. Unless your name is Kerry, Cleland, Murtha, Clark etc In those cases we must defer to Sean "Ole Blood 'n Guts" Hannity, Bill "Hellbent Fer Leather" O'Reilly, and Ann "Going Down In History" Coulter.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 04:37:12 PM EST
    Jondee - SD brought the subject up.
    Being the true coward you are you hide behind the guise of patriotism.
    When I reminded him of my service, and his lack he went off in 15 directions, which is his want from time to time. Your follow on comments became just as irrational. None of my comments had anything to do with your brother's courage in facing a disease, or anyone else facing a situation requiring courage. Why do you continue to make claims that are so obviously incorrect? Do you think that those who read do not understand?? Squeaky - Obviously you have no experience that can provide you with any information about the function of groups doing things together. These things could be team sports, military service, engineering/marketing teams. That you do not tells me quite a bit about Squeaky. And since you haven't served in the military, you have absolutely no way to understand the understated, almost always dark, humor that abounds. In all the years I served, with all the people. I never met, or knew off, anyone who considered himself brave, or a great fountain of patroitism. What you, Jondee, etc., fail to grasp is that these are just people doing their job as best they can, hoping that nothing bad happens and looking forward to seeing their families and loved ones as soon as possible. Squeaky, I would say something nasty about you, but really, it would be like whipping a child. Al writes:
    But, you know, those who are of such a temperament that they are willing to risk their lives for their fellow human beings are usually extremely modest, and the last to claim to have a monopoly on virtue or patriotism.
    Then you understand my 1:19PM comment. Congratulations. There may be hope for you.

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#44)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 05:29:37 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ July 4, 2006 05:37 PM Jondee - SD brought the subject up. "When I reminded him of my service, and his lack he went off in 15 directions, which is his want from time to time." **************** TL, How many times does ppj get to hijack a thread and insult/accuse/state other people are cowards/stupid/unpatriotic/ignorant/illiterate?

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 06:02:13 PM EST
    "I never met anyone who considered themselves brave or a fountain of patriotism" ..till I looked in the mirror and fell in love. Always been a sucker for a man in uniform..

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 10:42:26 PM EST
    Speaking of personality disorders, I'd like to have personality inventories done of Boy George, the Big Dick, and Rumpot. Talk about a nest of neurotics!

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 02:11:19 AM EST
    Misha - "Neurotic" is an understatement with some of these guys. Political scientist James Dave Barber has done a study of Presidents' personality types. John Dean wrote about some of Barbers conclusions back in April in his article "If Past Is Prologue, George Bush Is Becoming An Increasingly Dangerous President".

    Re: Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:33:32 AM EST
    Sailor - And how many times is SD allowed to attack someone? He wrote:
    For the millionth time America is not Bush and Cheney, but you know that dont you. Being the true coward you are you hide behind the guise of patriotism.
    Do you think it reasonable for him to write such and my hands be tied in responding? And, if you are concerned, read the "joined in" comments by Jondee.

    Feds Charge Soldier in Mahmudiyah Rape-Murder Case | 45 comments (45 topical)