Can I take a page from imho's book and assume that since no one has answered this question, no one believes a gang rape was perpetrated by Seligmann, Finnerty and Evans?

Does anyone believe Precious was raped by anyone on the LAX team? Sexually assaulted? Assaulted?

IMHO - What is your point?

That damage should not be perpetuated.

the persistent wumhenry posted:

The ineffable IMHO wrote:

Is it that the "stripper" is presumably getting paid for these dates that it is reasonable to consider her v@gina could be injured during one of them?

Who said it was injured? Diffuse swelling is a condition, and apparently not an abnormal one.

You keep trying to nail me, wum, but you keep missing. Don't give up. It is from jk's post.

Posted by inmyhumbleopinion June 21, 2006 10:30 AM cpinva, If you do not reply to this I will not take it to mean that you could not refute any of my points. I will consider no reply may be your response to Newport's plea to Talk Left's commenters:

You told The News & Observer that the Duke party was the first time you had been hired to dance provocatively for a group. Both hirer and hiree were at fault in that respect, and then it worsened catastrophically.

[---], a false claim or rape hurts everyone.

Well, I have now been hit over the head by the board's three resident radical feminists, i.e., imho, pb and "durga_is_my_homey"

I have survived to live another day, much to their dismay I would think.

These three will continue on spewing their hatred of "the White Man" and all the things said "Man" has done.

It is the unifying principal in their religion,

and the Duke boys will be made to pay.

Finally, a third member of this group pops up occasional to spout off in incoherent fashion about tending to rape victims never mind that there is no rape victim here, and, indeed, the only victims are the Duke boys.

Another member hates all things "Duke" as well as the foregoing hatred of the "White Man" and is determined to bring about the destruction of these Duke boys by supporting a race pandering DA and pointing out journalistic errors.

Does anyone believe Precious was raped by anyone on the LAX team? Sexually assaulted? Assaulted?

imho,

My apoligies,I misread this post of yours.

cpinva,

If you do not reply to this I will not take it to mean that you could not refute any of my points. I will consider no reply may be your response to Newport's plea to Talk Left's commenters:

IMHO - I just don't see how the transcript contradicts what the author is saying. Oh well.

Newport (whose desperate pleads are being ignored)

Can I take a page from imho's book and assume that since no one has answered this question, no one believes a gang rape was perpetrated by Seligmann, Finnerty and Evans?

I don't believe the possibility of her lying ... exempts the men from their own bad behavior, what they've said, and their lack of accountability.

Or that it [i.e., the possibility that the indictment is based on lies] justifies the excuses that have been made for them, the complete lack of acknowledging it was as bad as it was, and totally holding the AV to a higher standard than them.

So, is anybody ever going to suggest these "boys" be accountable for the behavior on their part we are aware of? Is anybody going to say, "hey, come forward and man-up to what was said by whom"? Let us know who said "thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt!"? Let us know who said, "(she is/they're) just a stripper". Let us know who said, "(...)shove this broom handle up your (a*s/whatever)"? I mean, my gosh, even Kim has been honest about her past/actions and she isn't even charged with a crime.

I know "due process" is a joke to some people here, who complain about the expense, but to me it is a promise of citizenship. It's why we fight.

To answer Bob's trumpet blasts, I don't believe the rape happened, nor do I believe the rape didn't happen. The problem space has not been properly carved out, even as a simple matter of procedure. As a substantive matter, we don't know what the Prosecution time line is, and we don't know where the defendants were when the accuser was in the bathroom. That's a lot not to know.

But someone else apparently won't take the case unless Nifong himself asks to be relieved. The law apparently puts that power in his hands alone.

In a state whose lawmakers truly valued justice in their "criminal justice" system, someone else would have the power to remove prosecutors who've gone off the rails. The attorney general comes to mind, or the chief justice.

But in North Carolina, lawmakers seem to put local prosecutors at the top of the judicial heap. As they've demonstrated lately, DAs can get away with lying to judges and lawyers in order to send innocent people to death row. They can get away with lying to the public in order to win re-election.

I know "due process" is a joke to some people here, who complain about the expense, but to me it is a promise of citizenship. It's why we fight.

I mean, my gosh, even Kim has been honest about her past/actions and she isn't even charged with a crime.

Posted by inmyhumbleopinion June 21, 2006 03:34 PM Oh. hahaha. As you now know, that was just a little snark. I hope you keep commenting.

Sound familiar to anyone?

Wrong. I was quoting from a message you posted at 7:33AM yesterday (6/21). The message included a quote from jk, but those are your words. Look it up.

It is from jk's post. We were speaking in general terms:

is it absolutely reasonable for the jurors to consider the evidence of her "dates" as a possible alternative explanation for her injuries?

How about a "college girl" with an active social life? What if she went out with seven different men in the week before she claimed she was raped. If she says none of the dates involved v@ginal sex is it absolutely reasonable for the jurors to consider the evidence of her "dates" as a possible alternative explanation for her injuries?

How about a married woman that slept with her husband every night of the week preceeding her alleged rape? If she says they did not engage in v@ginal sex is it absolutely reasonable for the jurors to consider the evidence of her sleeping in the same bed as her husband as a possible alternative explanation for her injuries?

If grand juries are just camouflage for unfettered prosecutorial discretion, then abolish them in favour of allowing prosecutors to bring charges at will.

I said relative to man the who served nearly 20 years in prison for a raping a woman he had never set eyes on. Tell that guy how awful it is the Duke University lacrosse season was cancelled, some boys may miss a few semesters, Evans lost his job on Wall Street and how their parents have to borrow $400,000 from friends or tie up $400,000 of their own assests to keep their kids from spending one minute behind bars.

Keep trying, wum. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day, unless, I as suspect, you are running on military time.

You've destroyed your own case. If we don't know these things then the accusation has not been sufficiently tested to justify putting the defendants on trial.

At least have the honesty of your convictions. If grand juries are just camouflage for unfettered prosecutorial discretion, then abolish them in favour of allowing prosecutors to bring charges at will.

The most basic element of "due process" is the state following the rules in its investigation.

Some keep asking for proof that they weren't there. What's the proof that they were?

Due process is not a joke, to be sure, but invoking "due process" as though it somehow prevents us from saying here whether we believe the AV's accusation is ridiculous.

Your smugness is unwarranted; nothing you say in the message that ends with that remark has any bearing whatever on the point that I raised with you. My point was simply that your supposition that the AV's vagina was "injured" was ill-founded.

I don't agree with your interpretation of Nifong's "ethical violations." But even if I did, there is a process for dealing with ethical violations. An ethical violation isn't an automatic free pass for people accused of crimes, particularly when those so-called violations occured prior to the defendants even being charged.

I've got an eyewitness that says they were there. You got anybody who says they weren't?

BTW, for all you folks worried about spending 20 years behind bars for a false accusation for rape (I don't deny that this could happen), here's a reality check: in PA, the average length of time behind bars for any convicted sex crime? 128 days (handout in class).

An ethical violation isn't an automatic free pass for people accused of crimes, ...

Actually, that's not true: it's not at all uncommon for judges to throw out cases or convictions on the basis of legal technicalities.

Of course, conservatives don't usually like that--they denounce legal "technicalities"--but I hadn't gotten the sense from your previous postings that you were a George Bush fan.

Indeed, your argument--that if "violations occured prior to the defendants even being charged," the prosecution essentially has a free pass--would seem to conflict with the Bill of Rights, which generally is interpreted to mean that "due process" begins at the start of an investigation, not when the prosecution charges people.

Lets see, IMHO:

Victoria Peterson, Durham activist Houston Baker, Jr., Duke Professor of English Jesse Jackson, Rainbow Coalition Ruth Sheehan, N&O editorial writer Erin Texeira, AP writer Timothy B. Tyson, Writer for the News & Observer Cash Michaels, Wilmington Journal writer Malik Zulu Shabazz, leader of the New Black Panther Party

How's that for starters? I have links for all of these, but I think I overloaded the software and wasn't allowed to post all in one message.

Heck, who here believes the accuser had consensual sex with anyone at the party (other than Kim Roberts)?

Bob, I think we were both going to the same point earlier. I didn't couch mine as gently as you did. It just irks me to see people who are willing to cloak her with the mantle of Victimhood. They claim she's not responsible for the complete and utter mess she has made with her life. She couldn't help it. It was beyond her ability to pull herself up out of the disadvantaged situation in which she found herself.

The report also shows inconsistencies with the story from the second dancer, Kim Roberts. The alleged victim called her "Nikki" that night. According to the report, neither woman told police that Roberts also performed at the lacrosse team's party.

She said that she and "Nikki" danced and put on a show for the men at the party.

It appears that everyone here admits that there is not enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict the 3 men.

in PA, the average length of time behind bars for any convicted sex crime? 128 days (handout in class).

Some folks have speculated that the AV wanted to avoid a night at the substance abuse facility sleeping it off.

She was regaining coherency when she arrived; chances are they wouldn't have kept her.

I would rather think that I do a lot of deduction.

I've got an eyewitness that says they were there. You got anybody who says they weren't?

I was at the lacrosse party at 61 0 N. Buchanan Blvd. in Durham, NC on March 13 running over to March 14, 2006. After the two women danced for a few minutes in the main livingroom, they then left the main living room. 3. Shortly thereafter, I then left the residence through the back door and talked to Reade. As, I went out the back door, I did not see or hear anything unusual. Once outside, I saw Reade, who appeared normal in all respects. We were both tired fiom playing golf that afternoon, and we had practice the next day. In addition the dancers had stopped dancing and were obviously impaired when they left the main living room. Reade said he had just called a cab and asked if I wanted to leave with him. We walked down the alley to Watts Street, took a left and walked to the corner of Watts Street and Urban Avenue (about a block from 610 N. Buchanan Blvd.) to wait for the cab. Our plan was to go to the Cookout Restaurant, get takeout food, and go to our respective dorms.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

In addition the dancers had stopped dancing and were obviously impaired when they left the main living room.

I didn't write the exceptions to the guidelines. I just agree with Nifong that he hasn't violated them.

Barry - he was not ejaculating in a crocodile's mouth with a condom on his head. Please endeavor to be accurate!

I learned that a rape exam takes on the average 4-6 hours. I believe the AV was there at Duke for 5 hours. It's definitely no picnic; it was described in class as a "gynecological exam gone mad," and it was the opinion of our presenter that it is very unlikely a woman would subject herself to it unless she had actually been raped and thought she'd want to press charges. She'd have to be extremely motivated to endure it otherwise.

in PA, the average length of time behind bars for any convicted sex crime? 128 days (handout in class)

After the two women danced for a few minutes in the main livingroom, they then left the main living room. 3. Shortly thereafter, I then left the residence through the back door and talked to Reade. As, I went out the back door, I did not see or hear anything unusual. Once outside, I saw Reade, who appeared normal in all respects.

And don't forget that false moustache that everybody was passing around, along with the two false code names.

Was it a Hitler moustache?

Prison sentences for rape are not uniform. A study made by the U.S. Department of Justice of prison releases in 1992, involving about 80 percent of the prison population, found that the average sentence for convicted rapists was 9.8 years, while the actual time served was 5.4 years.

Once outside, I saw Reade, who appeared normal in all respects. We were both tired fiom playing golf that afternoon, and we had practice the next day. In addition the dancers had stopped dancing and were obviously impaired when they left the main living room. Reade said he had just called a cab and asked if I wanted to leave with him.

There is no reason to think the AV is a neglectful mother.

Hey Barry... Where's the part about Seligman not being in the bathroom with the accuser... Am I missing something? What does "shortly thereafter" mean, by the way... Eleven minutes? He seems to have gone outside after Seligman called the cab, isn't that right?

Robert's testimony shows that he was not in the bathroom with the accuser but with him.

I see no one has tackled the inconsistency of the defense reporting extensive bruising on the AV (upon arrival at the party, while dancing, and after) and the discovery documents apparently showing no injuries beyond a minor scratch or two.

What was that word, wumhenry? Sisyphean?

OK. This is my wild speculation: I'm thinking that if they both went back in, the AV was right. The player apologized and offered a deal and Kim's the one wanted to go in. I don't think the AV resisted as much as she said though. See, everybody tries to look good. She needed her shoe. The AV was pulled out of the car like she said, groped like she said, "helped" back inside by Kim and a player. They thought they'd be entertaining together but there were other plans. The AV wanted to stick with Kim, but Kim didn't care. Kim went to the master bedroom, and, well, made some illegal money. That's why she never told that part. Up till then, everything was legal.

OK, question. Kim, the AV, and Bissey all have both women going back inside the house.

Whatever appeared in those photos may have been birth marks or pits in the skin that casted dark shadows or skin pigmentation differences seen in many African Americans

Where does Bissey himself say 12:30, or any time? Source?

I returned to my residence at approximately 11:30 p.m. on Monday. After getting a bottle of beer from my kitchen, I proceeded to my porch to smoke a cigarette. It was at this point that I noticed that the party from earlier in the day was still in effect next door at 610 Buchanan. I noted that some men were still lingering in the back yard of 610.

At approximately 1150 p.m., I saw from my porch that a car had been stopped directly in front of 610, and noted that two young women, both appearing to be African-American, were walking from the direction of the car and proceeded to the back-yard entrance of 610. One of the two was dressed in an extremely short tan skirt and was wearing high heels. Her hair was pinned up above her ears. The other woman was more conservatively dressed in pants and a sweater or blouse of some sort, and her hair was shoulder-length and curly. The two women briefly spoke with one of the men who was in the back yard. I remember hearing that he lived "at the other house," which in retrospect I assume to be the house on Urban Ave. that also was rented to Duke lacrosse team members. This man then left in the direction of Watts St., apparently to the residence to which he had just referred. Another young man spoke briefly with the two women just outside the back door of 610, and then proceeded indoors. At this point no one was outside of 610 besides the two young women.

about 11:55 p.m: A very brief conversation between the two women ensued, which I observed by switching to another chair on my porch. The more conservatively dressed woman noticed me at least once, when we made eye contact. She was speaking to the more proactively-dressed woman in a tone that I deduced through body language to be a sort of coaching, as if she was preparing her for something that she herself was comfortable with, but needed to talk the woman with the short skirt though it. I did not overhear any specific words at that time. Twice that I noticed during this conversation, a man or two different men opened the back door of 610 and spoke to the women, and the more conservatively dressed woman responded both times something to the effect that they would "be right there," or "just give us a minute."

I saw the women enter 610 together. After a moment, I remember quite specifically that it was Midnight. The reason I know it was Midnight is because I looked at my cell phone and noted the time. At approximately 12:05 a.m. on Tuesday, I re-entered my house and took a shower.

sometime after 12:20 a.m.: As I was getting re-dressed in my bedroom, which is on the opposite side of the building from 610, I heard loud voices from outside. I had left my front door open, and the voices were carrying from in front of my residence, as well as open windows along the alley between 608 and 610. At this point, anywhere from 12:20 a.m. to 12:30 a.m., I observed 20 to 30 young men in the alley between my residence and 610 Buchanan, and on the sidewalk in front of my building. From the front living room of my house, I heard these men yelling amongst themselves about money. Specifically, I heard one man call sarcastically at one of his peers that it was "only $100 bucks" that he had apparently spent. It is not clear to me exactly when I noticed that one of the men was leaning into the driver's side window of the car that was parked directly in front of 610, but it appeared that he was having a conversation with whomever was in the vehicle at the time.

about 12:30 a.m.: I noted that the skimpily dressed woman had exited the car, saying something to the effect that she would go back into 610 to retrieve her shoe. She seemed agitated, but not hysterical. I left the front door open so that I could hear if the situation flared up again. I would estimate that the young woman left the car at around 12:30am.

At this point, I believe that I was in my bedroom checking email and reading the news. At some point, I heard a renewed commotion outside. I estimate that another 15-20 minutes had elapsed, making the time approximately 1 :00 a.m. As I opened the screen door to my residence and stepped onto my porch, the car that I had seen parked in fiont of 610 was driving north on Buchanan towards Markham, and young men were beginning to disperse from the house. Most of the men were walking towards Duke's East Campus, but some proceed to the west towards Watts St. Before the car that was parked in front of 610 sped off, I distinctly heard one young man's voice who was walking towards East Campus. He yelled at the car that was driving off, 'Hey *****, thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt."

I noted that the skimpily dressed woman had exited the car, saying something to the effect that she would go back into 610 to retrieve her shoe. She seemed agitated, but not hysterical. I left the front door open so that I could hear if the situation flared up again. I would estimate that the young woman left the car at around 12:30am

Will Nifong step up, be a man, admit he was wrong and accept the consequences?

Will Nifong step up, be a man, admit he was wrong and accept the consequences?

I saw from my porch that a car had been stopped directly in front of 610, and noted that two young women, both appearing to be African-American, were walking from the direction of the car and proceeded to the back-yard entrance of 610.

Thanks guys, I needed some laughs after getting smacked around so much today.

You are one sick and bitter person PB and you have no idea what you are talking about.

Would everyone please stop responding to imho. She is so hateful against those boys that it is no longer even the slightest bit amusing what she is saying. IMHO has revealed herself to be a racist (viciously anti- white)and a man hater with her recent idiocy. Conversing with her only encourages more of her lunatic fringe behavior.

Posted by Newport June 21, 2006 09:53 AM From her NoCal perch, she has made it her sole mission in life to disparage the reputation of these boys and Duke university. It needs to stop.

Posted by Newport June 21, 2006 09:55 AM People like imho are every bit as racist as the Aryan Nation and other such groups, they just don't see it that way.

Posted by Newport June 21, 2006 09:58 AM Right on Barry, yesterday it was the @#$%# bathroom "error" and today it's back to playing the race card. That's what people like imho do when the facts don't turn out as they hoped they would.

Posted by Newport June 21, 2006 10:01 AM Hate crime, LOL!!! the only one who should be prosecuted for that is imho, but I doubt the prosecutor for San Fran or Marin County would be up for it. Just guessing there, of course.

Sorry Sharon, but imho doesn't like men remember, and she especially doesn't like white men who graduated from Duke and played sports there.

What does being "accountable" for their behavior mean to you in this context?

2. The assumption that you all are radical feminists was pretty funny. In his defense, though, I think Newport was using "radical" to indicate degree, as opposed to using it as a particular feminist philosophy distinct in many ways from main stream feminism. I could be wrong about this, of course.

Shouldn't the feminists be angry at the damage Precious has done to real rape victims? The old saw was that false rape allegations are very rare. Yet in the highest profile rape case in years the accuser has turned out be a liar.

It's not worth it and they (the gang of three) are not worthy) of your [Bob In Pacifica's!] eloquent arguments

The AV had sex with 9 men, a plant, and a dog. Do you not agree she has had sex with 9 men? You can't ignore the evidence. She has several mental disorders, I know this. Both of this. All of this. There is no evidence to contradict this. Yippers. Anybody who disagrees with me is in complete denial. So this means she has several mental disorders and has had sex with many things. Imho is wrong. Imho plays games. Right? Right. Imho, you are wrong. You say things that are wrong. A lot. Speaking of me, I saw a shiny nickel the other day. Elephants are taking over the planet. Inagodadavida, baby. So, in conclusion, the AV is lying.

Because it's not important anymore? Whatever appeared in those photos may have been birth marks or pits in the skin that casted dark shadows or skin pigmentation differences seen in many African Americans or maybe the defense exggerated a bit. Who cares.

remember ho

okay, my legal ignorance is showing. Beenaround, the DPD statement is different from the affadavit?

Man-up to it, admit it happened. Save their buddies who weren't a part of it some face. Given what was said I do know they aren't the "best bunch of guy" ... but at least ... admit to what corroborating evidence - and even their own lawyer -shows.

I learned that a rape exam takes on the average 4-6 hours. I believe the AV was there at Duke for 5 hours. It's definitely no picnic; it was described in class as a "gynecological exam gone mad," and it was the opinion of our presenter that it is very unlikely a woman would subject herself to it unless she had actually been raped and thought she'd want to press charges. She'd have to be extremely motivated to endure it otherwise.

There's someone who claims to be a SANE nurse on the CourtTV boards and she says that they get a lot of false accusers who go through the exam.

JASON BISSEY, LIVES NEXT DOOR TO ALLEGED CRIME SCENE: I noticed a car drive up and two young women get out, met with the gentleman and then walked back to the back of the house. Two young women, one of them dressed in a short skirt and high heels, and the other woman was dressed a little more conservatively spoke with the gentleman outside of this door here briefly, and then at this point, all of the young men were inside. They spoke amongst themselves for about five minutes or so and then entered the house.

And at that point, I went inside to take a shower. And when I came out, this entire alley was full of men kind of yelling, and I overheard a lot of talk about getting money back and the money they'd spent or whatever. And the young women were back in the car in front, and one of the young men was leaning into the driver's side door, speaking with her. But at that point, the situation seemed to calm down a little bit, and they were able, I guess, to convince one of the girls to go back inside.

So the young ladies went back into the house, and at that point, nobody was out in the alley. The situation seemed pretty calm. And I was back in the house, just kind of hanging out, checking my e-mail and stuff, and I overheard the situation starting to boil up again outside.

And at that point, the young women were coming back out of the house, getting into the car and driving away. And there were a lot of young men running this way, towards Duke's east campus. And that's the point, when the girls were driving off, that I overheard the racial slur. One of the young men yelled, Hey, "expletive," thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt.

And within two minutes, everything was totally dispersed, everybody was gone, and the police showed up shortly thereafter.

I'd note that most common law countries don't have grand juries in the american sense instead most of them have a hearing where a judge decides if there is enough evidence to indict. In many ways I think that would be a better system. Shouldn't the feminists be angry at the damage Precious has done to real rape victims? The old saw was that false rape allegations are very rare. Yet in the highest profile rape case in years the accuser has turned out be a liar.

Do you have a link where Nifong says he hasn't violated Rule 3.6 on prejudicial public statenments; Rule 3.8 requiring prosecutors to consider all evidence before indictment, even if it doesn't help the accuser; or NC Actual Innocence Commission's Guidelines requiring seven fillers for every suspect? I hadn't realized he made a statement that he hadn't violated these three provisions.

Do you have a link where Nifong says he hasn't violated Rule 3.6 on prejudicial public statenments; Rule 3.8 requiring prosecutors to consider all evidence before indictment, even if it doesn't help the accuser; or NC Actual Innocence Commission's Guidelines requiring seven fillers for every suspect? I hadn't realized he made a statement that he hadn't violated these three provisions.

I wasn't referring to all three when I wrote of the "exception" to the guidelines. I was writing of the first. His letter to Newsweek does that. As far as the fillers, a "guideline" doesn't "require" anything of a prosecutor. It recommends. We don't understand what the context was of the interview that is being compained about. There is a rumor that there had been earlier lineups, but we don't know the results of the eralier lineups. Did the earlier lineups include fillers?

How about a "college girl" with an active social life? What if she went out with seven different men in the week before she claimed she was raped. If she says none of the dates involved v@ginal sex is it absolutely reasonable for the jurors to consider the evidence of her "dates" as a possible alternative explanation for her injuries?

How about a married woman that slept with her husband every night of the week preceeding her alleged rape? If she says they did not engage in v@ginal sex is it absolutely reasonable for the jurors to consider the evidence of her sleeping in the same bed as her husband as a possible alternative explanation for her injuries?

Is it that the "stripper" is presumably getting paid for these dates that it is reasonable to consider her v@gina could be injured during one of them?

If Rule 3.8 requires that all evidence be considered, what Rule (I am asking for a link here, not the customary attempt to rewrite a thousand years of the common law) authorises the prosecutor to not consider some evidence? evidence?

I am asking for a link here, not the customary attempt to rewrite a thousand years of the common law

I can't think of one time that I have attempted to rewrite a thousand years of common law. Why such a sourpuss?

So I don't know if it was a mistake by the THs or those here who wanted to discredit Bissey as an outside witness, but I seem to recall some kind of brouhaha over him (allegedly) saying that the two women got out of a car together, implying that they drove together to the house.

I noticed a car drive up and two young women get out, met with the gentleman and then walked back to the back of the house.

Prosecutors are wise to have procedural rules in place for how they go about looking at evidence. There is an appearance of impropriety when Prosecutors meet privately with defense attorneys in the days before a grand jury is to meet to go over evidence or arguments that can as asily be presented to the police or even the media. In the abstract, these procedural rules could be in conflict with Rule 3.8, but in the real world, that's an empirical matter for the Judiciary to ponder. In this particular case, the procedural rule wasn't tested at all, since the lawyers never attempted to get their evidence to Nifong through proper channels.

Bissey puts the two women going in at about midnight. The defense, via their doctored photographs at least, have the dance starting at midnight

Your theory that every accuser has the right force the defendants to face trial is a rewrite. The attacks on the right to silence and the right to counsel are rewrites.

PB, the defense doctored them photographs damn good, now didn't they.

I note that despite the customary tergiversation you have not linked to the alleged rule which authorises the prosecutor to disregard some of the evidence.

PB you're either trolling or you've lost your mind. I'm sure a tv station would open itself up to criminal/civil liability by doing something like that.

Hi Bob in Pacifica, You wrote:

It appears that everyone here admits that there is not enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict the 3 men.

I don't.

Since I haven't alleged that Nifong is authorized to disregard ANY evidence, I don't see that it should be necessary to find a rule that says he can.

Oh do show me the rule that requires Nifong to meet with the defense attorneys prior to filing charges against their clients. Or forever be labeled a tergiversationist if you don't.

Couldn't someone who the works in the private lab have done that? Why do you assume the source of the leak was the DA's office?

if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped. if.

"I just wanted to add my personal experiences to this conversation. I am a SANE/ER nurse. With that said, I want to relate to you some statistics I heard on Nancy Grace (yes my mom had the program on). A rape counselor stated the incidence of false reporting is only 2%.

In my PERSONAL experience that is untrue. False reporting is a MUCH larger percentage. Many of the "rape" claims never make it past the first investigating officer. The victim suddenly does not want to do anything or the victim suddenly walks out of the hospital without being seen."

what, are you linda blair, in the exorcist? your head spins so much, you must be constantly dizzy. first, you claimed that parts of the medical report (specifically, those parts supporting the state's rape allegation) have been kept under wraps. now, you seem to agree it probably would have been leaked, but quibble over who would have leaked it.

cpinva posted:

let's get real here, if mr. nifong had concrete, no questions about it evidence, to support the allegations, he would be bound by the rules of discovery to have disclosed that to the defense team. while it's true that the defense team might not blare that in public, it would have been leaked, by someone, to the press. and yet, nothing.

imho posted:

Leaked by whom? Dan Abrams?

cpinva posted:

it would have been leaked by someone, probably some low level employee in the DA's office, for a nice piece of change, to a tabloid. i guarantee it. if you truly think it would remain a secret, i have a bridge for sale.........

thank goodness you weren't here when the scott peterson case was going on, another one wholly lacking any kind of actual evidence, to support the allegation. you would have concocted, out of whole cloth, an entire scenario, featuring a one-armed man helping mr. peterson commit this nefarious crime.

yes, i know, i made that last part up. however, it's based pretty much on the tone and content of your posts, i merely extrapolated.

he facts are, there are few, if any facts, supporting the AV's (what, is TL the last bastion of deniability?) and state's allegations. yet, you've insisted on twisting and turning and what iffing them to death.

frankly, your schtick has grown dull.

A victim claiming rape declining the 4 hour S.A.N.E. exam or declining to press charges is not proof of a false alegation. The examples she gives are parents dragging in teenage daughters that come home late or drunk, spouses in custody battles, and spouses caught cheating. What she neglected to relate was in her "PERSONAL experience" how many women that claimed they were violently gang raped did she suspect to be falsely reporting rape? Or, in her "PERSONAL

There is an appearance of impropriety when Prosecutors meet privately with defense attorneys in the days before a grand jury is to meet to go over evidence or arguments that can as asily be presented to the police or even the media.

So IMHO, you wanna address the more relevent issue of how many gang-rapes leave no DNA evidence behind? And you can save yourself even more probalistic grief if you look up the statistics of white on black gang-rape. Of course I'll gladly do that for you if you haven't the time - I know that spinning defense statements is hard work.

You cannot be serious, PB. Prosecutors meet with defense attorneys all the time before arrest or indictment. To suggest that to do so would give even the appearance of impropriety, possibly, the most foolish thing you have said.

My point the lack of relevance of her post. That nurse's post about all these false accuser teenage girls dragged into the ER by their parents for getting drunk and having sex with their boyfriends - I'd guess in her "PERSONAL experience" they don't show signs vaginal injury or swelling. So what? What does that nurse's post about the "PERSONAL experiences" she chose to share have to do with this case? What was the point of posting it here?

sorry IMHO, having a real life, i apparently missed, and cannot locate, whatever post it was that you challenged me to respond to. it matters not, because whatever it was would have been just as ludicrous as the vast majority of your posts on this issue have been.

cpinva,

If you do not reply to this I will not take it to mean that you could not refute any of my points. I will consider no reply may be your response to Newport's plea to Talk Left's commenters:

Newport posted:

Would everyone please stop responding to imho

See Newport? imho just can't stop referring to you. I think she has a crush on you.

cib, my understanding that the "statistics" of white on black gang rape is zero. this would be the first one ever as far as I know

In an exclusive interview with CBS News correspondent Trish Regan, Seligmann's mother, Kathy, said that despite her family's nightmare, she does not blame the accuser.

"I don't hate her...I think she panicked and made up this story. I pray that she didn't mean for this to happen," Kathy told Regan.

Let me make a point about the inconsistencies in Bissey's and the defense attorneys "inconsistent statements." The reason why I only quoted Bissey's affadavit is that is the only time he was giving testimony, the only time he was under oath and upon penalties of perjury making a statement for use in a judicial proceeding. Far, far more weight needs to be given to sworn testimony. In theory, at least, that is the time when a witness is giving his or her absolute best recollection of the matter, not media interviews. Was Bissey "lying" in the Crosby, or NYTimes, or any other interview? No, but he was not under the pressure of giving sworn testimony. Similarly, what a defense attorney says, in interviews with the media, should be given far less weight than what said attorney says either in a motion or in open court. An attorney's statements in the latter two instances are, like Bissey's affidavit, given "under penalties of perjury, to the best of his/her knowledge or belief." And, unlike Bissey, defense attorneys will not be giving testimony in a trial.

if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped. if.

The only example I have heard concerning a possible prosecution leak was the leak of the DNA evidence results before the defense team received a faxed copy, but there is no proof of that either - an employee of the private lab could have leaked it.

We know his 1:00 AM time is off, by at least 15 minutes. His other times could be way off too. TThese times are hardly unimpeachable.

The defense confirmed it when they spoke to reporters who told them that the DNA information was leaked by someone on the 6th floor (Nifong's office).

The first thing I would like to say about that report is that I think that it is very interesting, interesting to note for the ones of you that care to note these things, that this report was leaked by the district attorney`s office, according to press people who have told me specifically that they leaked it to them, several days ago. We only received this report at 5:00 o`clock. I received it at 5:02 this afternoon by fax. I find it interesting that it was leaked that way and faxed to us in a way that was apparently done so that we would not have the opportunity to respond to it. That`s the first thing.

The second thing is, it makes me sad the way it was leaked and the way it was reported by many people that there was a match in the second DNA test to one of the Duke lacrosse players. Those types of reports that go out all over this nation create a false impression about this particular case and makes it very difficult for these young man to receive a fair trial. And that is one of the reasons that we are speaking out tonight. We feel compelled by the actions of the district attorney`s office to continue to speak out about this case.

I think Sharon is referring to the press conference the defense team called to discuss the second round of DNA evidence. The press conference was called 2 days after the evidence was leaked. At the time of the leak, Cheshire was quoted as questioning the source of the leak - asking if the DA's office could have leaked the information. Then 2 days later at the press conference, the press started hounding Cheshire on the source of the leak - Cheshire looked like a deer in the headlights - he wouldn't say who was the source but when asked directly if it was Nifong, he said he it wasn't. He knew he was caught and couldn't lie. Then when asked about the DNA evidence on the nail, he started blasting the press for saying it came from skin under the nail - stating emphatically that he never said it came from skin under the nail and the press didn't have a copy of the report, so they couldn't report those details. When asked if he would give the press a redacted version of the report, he said he'd consider it (but didn't).

As for what PB pointed out, you act like two different cell phone clocks are going to be syncronized second for second. His cell phone clock may have been a little slower or the camera used in the picture may have been a little faster.

cib, my understanding that the "statistics" of white on black gang rape is zero. this would be the first one ever as far as I know

Durga you are a racist.

You just can't accept it because of your "belief system."

Racism can manifest itself against any enumerated race, white or caucasian being one.

And, you hate white men and have shown that on this board.

The FBI's statistic for "unfounded" rape accusations is 9%, but this definition only includes cases where the accuser recants or the evidence contradicts her story.

The FBI does not separately track false reports; it tracks only the total number of unfounded reports. The category of "unfounded" consists of both baseless cases in which the elements of the crime were never met and false reports. In 1998, unfounded rape reports accounted for 8 percent of total reported rapes; however, this number is questionable. Some police officers incorrectly think that a rape report is unfounded or false if any of the following conditions apply: - the victim has a prior relationship with the offender (including having previously been intimate with him); - the victim used alcohol or drugs at the time of the assault; - there is no visible evidence of injury; - the victim delays disclosure to the police and/or others and does not undergo a rape medical exam; and/or the victim fails to immediately label her assault as rape and/or blames herself.

According to a nine-year study conducted by former Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, in over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994).

Kanin also studied rape allegations in two large Midwestern universities and found that 50 percent of the allegations were recanted by the accuser.

Kanin's findings are hardly unique. In 1985 the Air Force conducted a study of 556 rape accusations. Over one quarter of the accusers admitted, either just before they took a lie detector test of after they had failed it, that no rape occurred. A further investigation by independent reviewers found that 60 percent of the original rape allegations were false.

According to a 1996 Department of Justice Report, of the roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases analyzed with DNA evidence over the previous seven years, 2,000 excluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive. The report notes that these figures mirror an informal National Institute of Justice survey of private laboratories, and suggests that there exists "some strong, underlying systemic problems that generate erroneous accusations and convictions."

EXONERATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES, 1989 THROUGH 2003 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY This report summarizes findings from a study of exonerations of defendants convicted of serious crimes in the United States since 1989, when the first DNA exoneration occurred. This is the most comprehensive listing of exonerations to date. We plan to update it periodically. Our purpose is to study overall patterns in the exonerations that have accumulated in the past fifteen years in order to learn about the causes of false convictions, and about the operation of our criminal justice system in general. The following are highlights of our key findings: • We found a total 328 exonerations in that 15-year period, 316 men and 12 women; 145 of them were cleared by DNA, 183 by other sorts of evidence. They had served an average of over ten years in prison for crimes for which they should never have been convicted. Four defendants were exonerated posthumously, after they had died in prison. • The rate of exonerations increased sharply over the 15-year period of the study, from about 12 a year through the early 1990s to an average of 43 a year after 2000. From 1999 on, about half of all exonerations have been based on DNA evidence. • Our count of exonerations is conservative. We consider only exonerations based on investigations in the individual cases of the exonerated defendants. Our database does not include at least 135 additional innocent defendants who were framed by rogue police officers and cleared in two mass exonerations: in 1999-2000 in Los Angeles, in the aftermath of the discovery of the Rampart area police scandal; and in 2003 in Tulia, Texas, when a single dishonest undercover officer was shown to have framed 39 innocent drug defendants. In 88% of the rape cases the exonerations were based on DNA evidence; 20% of the murder exonerations involved DNA, almost all of them for homicides that also included a rape.

Almost 90% of the false convictions in the rape exonerations were based in large part on eyewitness misidentifications. Cross-racial misidentification is a special danger. About 50% of the exonerated rape defendants are black men who were misidentified by white victims, but only 10% or less of all rapes involve black perpetrators and white victims. As a result, black men are greatly over-represented among defendants who are falsely convicted and exonerated for rape.

So all that stuff about false rape allegations being vanishingly rare is PC BS.

A likely explanation is that when he first saw them they were walking away from the car and he naturally assumed that they had both arrived in it and disembarked together shortly before he looked out the window.

At about 11:30 Precious arrived and came to the back where we met for the first time.

ROBERTS: And being than I am of mixed race I'm sure that they assumed I was the Hispanic one and they were, of course, waiting now for the white girl to arrive. And almost it's kinda funny, because almost as soon as all this conversation is going on, and lo and behold here comes the other dancer around the corner and she's obviously not a white girl.

It was in reference to someone saying that they can't imagine many women would go through with the SANE exam unless they were really raped. Clearly a certain woman in Durham is willing to go through the exam if it keeps her out of the psych ward.

Hi all,

I just wanted to add my personal experiences to this conversation. I am a SANE/ER nurse. With that said, I want to relate to you some statistics I heard on Nancy Grace (yes my mom had the program on). A rape counselor stated the incidence of false reporting is only 2%.

In my PERSONAL experience that is untrue. False reporting is a MUCH larger percentage. Many of the "rape" claims never make it past the first investigating officer. The victim suddenly does not want to do anything or the victim suddenly walks out of the hospital without being seen. However, there are some misleading issues that are reported as "rape".

Teenagers: blah blah blah

Bad Relationships: blah blah blah

Extramarital affairs: blah blah blah

blah.......

Seriously, how am I racist/hate white men? Please show me. While you're at it, you may as well show your proof of how imho hates white people and men.

but it doesn't sound like Bissey could have seen the two women walking from the car up the alley/driveway at the accuser's first arrival.

but it doesn't sound like Bissey could have seen the two women walking from the car up the alley/driveway at the accuser's first arrival.

He may have misinterpreted what he saw a bit. This is eyewitness testimony from a distance after all.

In what way?

Defense lawyers have said that the woman arrived at the party already impaired and battered and concocted a story.

Jason Bissey, who lives next door to the university-owned house, said Thursday that he had a clear view of the accuser's arrival and that she did not appear to be impaired. He said he saw her walk up a long alley to the rear of the lacrosse house, then talk to the other woman hired to dance before entering the home.

"They were both totally lucid. [The accuser] was not impaired in any way, I remember clearly," Bissey said Thursday. "It was a kind of a long way to walk so it would have been pretty clear if she was messed up."

Posted by beenaround June 22, 2006 10:28 AM Hmmm, while I don't know what protocols are actually in use, I would imagine that most cell phones are syncronized to within a few hundred milliseconds. While the clocks on the phones drift by as much as several seconds a day, or possibly even tens of seconds a day, I imagine that they use something like NTP to sync with the network and that each network syncs to master clocks.

This sounds more accurate than his sworn testimony.

My Treo "smartphone" doesn't have any sort of time synchronization - setting the time is strictly manual. It is a GSM phone on T-Mobile's network. I can't recall any of my previous phones having any sort of automatic time sync either.

Bissey does not say the AV walked alone down the alley.

The "victim" made some very poor choices and has suffered for them, whether or not at the hands of the Duke lacrosse team. No one forced her to strip to pay for her college tuition, as Jackson seems to suggest. But she is a person, not a walking metaphor for black women everywhere. Her choices are not the choices of all black women, and it is not blaming the victim to observe that her own behavior has raised real questions as to her credibility. The "accused perpetrators" are hardly angels either. Their very presence at that house makes them look bad - if the victim's choices are fair game, so are those of her accused attackers. But their race and class should not be used against them, as so many pundits have done. The data on rape attacks by race and class support this contention, and those who insist on invoking inflammatory and outdated stereotypes are doing so in defiance of the facts on rape and race in this country.

for all you folks worried about spending 20 years behind bars for a false accusation for rape ... the average length of time behind bars for any convicted sex crime? 128 days ...

Beenaround, would you please post the statistics to which you refer. I would like to see them.

Look back at your comments where you go on and on and on and on and on and on about somebody calling somebody a name about how they need to "man-up" and admit this horribleness, tell who did this monstrous crime and pay the consequences.

What, like having your lacrosse season cancelled, your coach fired, like people you thought were your friends questioning your very character,

like not being served food on campus, like having a wanted poster made up displaying your picture and displayed on campus and city streets and much more that I don't need to point out.

And for what! Because someone called someone a name over an argument when said person was probably called some name himself

So, is anybody ever going to suggest these "boys" be accountable for the behavior on their part we are aware of? Is anybody going to say, "hey, come forward and man-up to what was said by whom"? Let us know who said "thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt!"? Let us know who said, "(she is/they're) just a stripper". Let us know who said, "(...)shove this broom handle up your (a*s/whatever)"? I mean, my gosh, even Kim has been honest about her past/actions and she isn't even charged with a crime.

The accuser may have been led there by the guy that flagged down the car or walked up alone, but it doesn't sound like Bissey could have seen the two women walking from the car up the alley/driveway at the accuser's first arrival.

I guess Durgha the bottom line is this: I just don't see the moral reprehensibility in the players' conduct that you do.

Boorish, perhaps, aweful, terrible, reprehensible, no.

Durga is my homey, this is what you did say:

Cousin: Duke alleged raped victim turned down money to drop case

[DURHAM, NC] The cousin of the alleged victim in the Duke University lacrosse rape case says "alums of Duke" quietly offered the accuser lots of money - a staggering $2 million - early on to drop the charges, and go on with her life.

"She told me they wanted her to make the case go away," Jakki (she will not reveal her last name in order to protect her family), the designated family spokesperson, told The Carolinian and Wilmington Journal newspapers in an exclusive interview June 19.

However Jakki adds that her younger cousin, the Black woman at the center of the nation's most controversial criminal case, refused because she insists that she was indeed beaten and sodomized by the three indicted white Duke lacrosse team members - Colin Finnerty, Reade Seligmann and David Evans - each charged with first-degree rape, first-degree sexual assault and first-degree kidnapping.

"It's not about the money to her," Jakki says. "It's about her [being] brutally raped, sodomized, called a 'nigger.' Can you imagine being choked and held down? The thought of it - it reminds me of slavery days when the women were brutally raped by the masters - makes me furious because they want to make these [Duke players] out to be golden boys."

The alleged victim told her family the trial must proceed, and she wants justice done. Because she remains in seclusion, the alleged victim could not be reached for comment.

Sam Hall, communications director for Duke University Alumni Affairs, told The Wilmington Journal that after checking with other officials at the university about the "alums of Duke" allegation, "We have no information about that."

"I think there's been a rumor of it since the beginning, but...I've never heard it discussed," Hall added.

However other sources have confirmed to The Carolinian and Wilmington Journal newspapers that early in the case, Black leaders, whose names cannot be revealed, were also allegedly approached by persons concerned about the fallout of the Duke rape controversy, and offered sums of money for themselves, NCCU and the alleged victim, if they could influence her to retract her allegations.

Those sources told The Wilmington Journal that those leaders flatly refused the offer. It is not clear whether this was an alleged attempt separate from what the alleged victim told her cousin, Jakki, or if the alleged attempt was one in the same. It is also not clear whether Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong was ever informed of it.

9. Judge does not look angry with Nifong at all.

However Jakki adds that her younger cousin, the Black woman at the center of the nation's most controversial criminal case, refused because she insists that she was indeed beaten and sodomized by the three indicted white Duke lacrosse team members - Colin Finnerty, Reade Seligmann and David Evans - each charged with first-degree rape, first-degree sexual assault and first-degree kidnapping.

It is not clear whether this was an alleged attempt separate from what the alleged victim told her cousin, Jakki, or if the alleged attempt was one in the same. It is also not clear whether Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong was ever informed of it.

each charged with first-degree rape, first-degree sexual assault and first-degree kidnapping.

beaten and sodomized by the three indicted white Duke lacrosse team members

There is no toxicology report. So much for the date rape drug theory.

There are no further medical reports from Duke University based on the March 14 rape allegation. All parts of the SANE/rape kit have been turned over.

No records from drunk tank (Durham access center)

cell phone records of accuser turned over to defense.

Nifong will not be ordered to turn over meeting notes of meetings between Nifong, investigators and the accuser. Says they are not discoverable work product. Judge takes his word for it.

Accuser said she went to Duke after 1993 Creedmore rape allegation. Osborn wants the records. Nifong says he doesn't think they exist but he will check around.

Judge does not look angry with Nifong at all.

No substantive motions were discussed whatsoever. No hearing dates were set, no responses were ordered to be filed. Motions will continue to be thrown over the transom into limbo land. Great system they have down there.

536 more pages of discovery turned over.

Conclusion: case doesn't go away until right before trial, just like the Kobe case.

The deus ex machina here is the write-in campaign against Nifong.

And Durga: still wondering what specific instances you consider to be examples of how Kim "has been honest about her past/actions and she isn't even charged with a crime."

Durga is my homey, I do not know what is in your heart.

I do know what your words have been and your words suggest to me that you harbor ill-will and racism toward white men.

You minimize the actions of the strippers,

yet you continually amplify your perceived transgressions committed by white men.

Durga, I will not respond to you further.

There claims are going to come back to haunt them

It has a much greater chance of succeeding if a candidate can get on the ballot by gathering the 6000+ signatures required. Anyone heard anything about how that's going? The deadline is around the end of June I think.

Cheek's campaign plans to send petitions to 25,000 households today, a mass mailing that will cost $15,000. Through an e-mail campaign to registered voters who voted in the past two primaries, the group had collected 25 signatures by Tuesday evening.

"I think there's been a rumor of it since the beginning, but...I've never heard it discussed," Hall added.

However other sources have confirmed to The Carolinian and Wilmington Journal newspapers that early in the case, Black leaders, whose names cannot be revealed, were also allegedly approached by persons concerned about the fallout of the Duke rape controversy, and offered sums of money for themselves, NCCU and the alleged victim, if they could influence her to retract her allegations.

And Durga: still wondering what specific instances you consider to be examples of how Kim "has been honest about her past/actions and she isn't even charged with a crime."

Not discoverable work product. Hmm. Lineups?

Is the BlackPressUSA Network biased?

Sorry, IMHO, but if this is the only argument for the (???)

Durga, that was me, not Newport, who said

I'd like to see those sources and the particulars of it.

He's grooming Nifong to succeed him to the bench.

In the course of his career as a prosecutor, Nifong has worked for three different District Attorneys, serving as Chief Assistant under both Ronald L. Stephens and James E. Hardin, Jr., both of whom now serve as Superior Court Judges.

She was called a n*gger while raped according to her story

DUKE UNIVERSITY RAPE INVESTIGATION ACCUSER'S STATEMENT TO POLICE

Matt grabbed me and looked at me. He said, 'Sweetheart, you can't leave.' He grabbed the back of my neck and said, 'I'm going to kill you, n----- b---- if you don't shut up"...They started kicking me in my behind and my back...Matt hit me in the face while Brett kicked me."

I think I caught Nifong mentioning they discussed the DNA results (and how to spin them?).

Madison, are you prescient?

She was called a n*gger while raped according to her story

Duke players' parents were unavailable for comment on the payoff attempt (rumor has it they were too busy swimming in their money pools and being cruel to animals). Defense attorneys only touched their hands together and cackled, "excellent". The AV has yet to comment as well, as she is traveling the world curing sick children with her Light of Goodness.

What words? It'll have to explain how can you possibly say addressing a few men on one team at one school in one city in one state in one country on one continent could somehow amount to all white men.

imho merely was attempting to take out of context something I said to attack. Whew!

LOL, is this a good argument?

If someone claimed one person was a ###$%#$#$^%%^, wouldn't you claim that person was a racist or, to be a racist, would said person have to find every person living or dead of a certain racial group and utter the same ####$#$%?

Court TV "journalist" Beth Karras said DNA was found underneath a fingernail.

I wonder how ofter Precious hears n----- b---- and just assumed that white college boys talk like Rap lyrics.

I wonder how ofter Precious hears n----- b---- and just assumed that white college boys talk like Rap lyrics.

According to witnesses someone at the party said both that night.

Court TV "journalist" Beth Karras said DNA was found underneath a fingernail. It was consistent with David Evans.

I will postulate that these meetings included questions like, "WELL, WHO THE H*LL'S F***ING DNA IS IT?!?" Just a thought.

Forgot to mention, TOO BAD THERE EXISTS A PHOTO OF KIM PERFORMING WITHOUT AT LEAST TWO OF HER RIGHT HAND FAKE FINGERNAILS.

NIFONG: It [cell phone belonging to Precious] was -- it was found outside the next day by the boys. They brought it inside. And the cops showed up with a search warrant. They said, look, we found this outside. Her purse as well. And then, of course, led them to, you know, fingernails they'd thrown in the trash can.

from one of the earlier hearings:

NIFONG: It [cell phone belonging to Precious] was -- it was found outside the next day by the boys. They brought it inside. And the cops showed up with a search warrant. They said, look, we found this outside. Her purse as well. And then, of course, led them to, you know, fingernails they'd thrown in the trash can.

How does Nifong know the boys threw the fingernails into the trash can?

imho, where's the DNA from the accused who DID NOT live at the house?

According to witnesses someone at the party said both that night.

According to witnesses someone at the party said both that night.

Source?

beenaround posted:

Source?

Ms. Pittman and Mr. Bissey.

imho, you said, in part:

According to witnesses someone at the party said both that night.

Is there anyone, other than the AV or Kim, who heard the n***** word?

Too bad this profile matched 14 other people in a database of 3,000 (3,000 whites?).

but I would guess

Newport: Absent a demonstrable showing of bad faith, I don't know of any judge who would not simply trust an "officer of the court" when he puts his a** on the line about work product.

You're right Durga, you didn't utter those magic words so you can't be racist.

Only explicitly racist remarks will do. Now, you can feel good about yourself again because you are not a racist.

Good night.

Forgot to mention, TOO BAD THERE EXISTS A PHOTO OF KIM (he probably means the AV) PERFORMING WITHOUT AT LEAST TWO OF HER RIGHT HAND FAKE FINGERNAILS.

My point was how does the "journalist" know it was underneath the nail?

The defense attorneys haven't shown reporters (other than Abrams - and he's not talking) the DNA results.

I don't know about her use of the word consistent for the partial DNA match. It was also inconsistent.

doesn't cut it

imho: when did Bissey ever say he heard the "n word"?

"There were no kind words of the things I heard that were directed at the girls," said neighbor Jason Bissey.

Abrams has said "on" but of course that's vague when applied to a fingernail. But judging from what Abrams has said, I don't think the DNA report ever used the word under or underneath. I think Dan would have noted that, if it did. But "on" could mean "under" too I think. If under, where under? The tip under, or way in the back?

With regard to all the multiples of the number of men involved, it's real funny when the Duke officer overheard the 20 men report that the Durham City Manager launched an investigation and determined that no one is aware of any such inconsistency. Who did he talk to Himan? Nifong? Real thorough investigation. The Duke cop was just reporting what the Durham cops were saying.

It is an important question. Why didn't Abrams tell us the answer?

Cheshire saying that version is included in the discovery?

I saw it as the judge saying to Nifong: "cut the crap, Mike."