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Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized When Under 18

The Saudis have released the names of two of the Guantanamo detainees who committed suicide yesterday. They are Manie bin Shaman bin Turki Al-Habardi Al-Otaibi and Yasser Talal Abdullah Yahya Al-Zahrani.

Al-Zahrani was seized and detained when he was 17 years old.

Today, a lawyer for the Saudi nationals imprisoned at Guantánamo Bay said he held United States authorities responsible for the deaths of the two Saudi prisoners. "The detainees' death reveals the mistreatment at Guantánamo and the extent human rights are breached," the lawyer, Katib al-Shimary, said in an interview with the satellite television network Al Arabiya, and monitored by Reuters.

The Yemeni suicide victim was identified as Ahmad Abdullah.

Some Saudis do not believe the suicide story and think the men were killed. Others say they believe they were driven to suicide by torture.

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  • Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:58:56 PM EST
    that term [illegal combatants] has never existed in history until bushco made it up. Yawn. Illegal = unlawful. You're nitpicking. Wiki: The term "unlawful combatant" has been used for the past century in legal literature, military manuals and case law. Ex Parte Quirin 317 U.S. 1 (1942) "The law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces. Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful... deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals."

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:06:26 PM EST
    The enemy combatants in Quiran got an appeal in a federal court -- that's one of the reasons its different than the enemy combatant rules today. Quiran has been the administration's marching song all along, but read the defense briefs as to why it is inapposite. Or if you'd like it in plain English, a commenter on TalkLeft explained it this way:
    Eight saboteurs landed in Long Island and Florida from German submarines. The only American citizen among them turned himself and the others in. There was a quickie trial before a kangaroo military tribunal and six of the Germans were immediately hanged, while the American and one of the Germans were given long prison sentences. (After the war, they were both released.) Quirin is an aberration. Roosevelt had already hanged six of the saboteurs when the Supreme Court wrote the opinion, and he had made it clear to the members of the Court that he wouldn't stand for any second-guessing about what he had done. Quirin, in a craven way, avoided a confrontation with Roosevelt (in wartime) over his already-used power to kill saboteurs. The case and its reasoning are a disgrace -- as much of a disgrace as Korematsu, the case in which the Court upheld the forced incarceration of American citizens of Japanese descent for no crime other than being Japanese -- and Roosevelt never used it again as a reason for hanging spies. Using Quirin as precedent is as noxious as doing the same with Korematsu (which, by the way, has never been overturned).


    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:10:52 PM EST
    Fine. This thread starts right out with a dazzling little snippet of disinformation. Just great. Many of the detainees at Gitmo were delivered into US hands by starving locals who were paid by the head for each Talibani, "terrorist", or combatant they turned in. Even prisoners brought in from the field by our soldiers are usually only taken for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no rightful reason to have Gitmo be operating as a prison for foreign citizens at all. The only reason it is there is to house inmates that cannot be held legally here. They can't be held legally there either, but we seem to have less ability to stop them there. Iraqis fighting our invasion are labelled "insurgents", not warriors defending their own homes. So * calls them illegal combatants. The fighters from other countries who are there to help them are labelled "terrorists". So * calls them illegal combatants. * has declared a global war on terror, yet no terrorist can claim the rights of enemy combatants when caught and detained. These too are seen as illegal combatants. None of these types of fighters can afford a uniform, and a uniform is not the sole criterion for status as a legal combatant. What we are doing in Gitmo, black sites, Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Iran, is patently illegal, immoral, un_American.

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:27:11 PM EST
    Sailor, In 1776, there was no Geneva Convention. Also, Nathan Hale was executed the day after he was captured behind enemy lines. Also, you are wrong about the continental army uniforms. This link gives some information on Revolutionary uniforms. Personally, I'll chip in for some proper rope so the unlawful combatants, the term is descriptive of their status, can hang themselves. Jimbo

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:36:21 PM EST
    From "Answering Islam": Suicide is forbidden in Islam; this sin is listed among the "enormities" in Reliance of the Traveller, a manual of Sharia in the tradition of Imam Shafi'i. On the other hand, "Suicide Bombers" are celebrated as martyrs:
    The puzzle is solved by recognizing that "suicide bomber" is simply a false terminology. The purpose of these people is not to kill themselves. They wish to kill the enemies of Islam, and in their view the most effective way to kill as many of their enemies as possible is to do it in this particular way. Their own death is accepted as a necessary sacrifice.


    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:36:51 PM EST
    Agent99, You beat me to it, but thanks for providing the reality check. Seems many have already forgotten the prisoner sales and millions doled out to warlords for their "cooperation".

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:53:24 PM EST
    At 17, my dad was in the navy during WWII, being called a kyke and getting punished for dating a black woman; his dad signed the permission form and told him he'd amount to nothing. Which means nothing in terms of whether this kid deserved anything. We have no idea whether he was proven to be anything, whether he did anything, just that he ended up in the cages -- as many others wrongfully did. And please don't expect me to believe ALL the innocent we're released.

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#8)
    by cpinva on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:53:23 PM EST
    ok, someone has to say this: isn't a saudi lawyer, complaining about "breaches in human rights" an oxymoron? ty, ty, ty verra much!

    JR...The mercs can wear whatever they want. Those that were in Bremer's security detail wore civilian clothes. Why are they subject to the Geneva Conventions if the Taliban fighters aren't?

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#10)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:47:00 PM EST
    Let's review. This administration has been wrong about absolutely everything that they have predicted connected with Iraq. 100% wrong. All the time. 24/7 They have refused to allow the prisoners even the most meager attempt at correcting any possible injustice connected with their capture, or any possiblity of finding out what their fate might even be. And we, the loyal citizens, are supposed to ignore three years of their being wrong about everything, and trust them on THIS? Wow. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me a thousand times in a row WITH THE SAME TRICK, and I'm either Charlie Brown or I'm a Republcian.

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 06:39:51 AM EST
    Dadler - Your comments and anger at your Father's treatment are understandable. But that was 65 plus years ago, and the world has changed. (And no, I didn't say it's perfect, just better.) There were many others who were 17, and there is today, in the military. In all cases the approval of a legal guardian/parent is required. But I do not understand this:
    Which means nothing in terms of whether this kid deserved anything.
    Now I agree with your statement. But if his age means nothing, why is it brought up?

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#12)
    by Aaron on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 11:40:43 AM EST
    What the actions of these individuals says loud and clear, is that regardless of what you do to us, we will not be defeated. So we can kill them, and lock them up indefinitely, but when their suicides are viewed by the military commander holding them as a victory for their cause, where do you go from there? Annihilation?

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#13)
    by Al on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 01:40:39 PM EST
    Personally, I'll chip in for some proper rope so the unlawful combatants, the term is descriptive of their status, can hang themselves.-Jimbo
    Including the ones that are about to be released, but haven't been told? Disgusting. Just disgusting.

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:27:30 PM EST
    Jim, No anger, just a little added spice to the standard "Greatest Generation" stories. I was more amused when he told how his father, after signing the permission slip, told him he'd amount to nothing and get out. Now THAT'S some coldhearted sh*t. Then again my grandfather had survived the trenches in WWI -- not as an American soldier, Austro-Hungary I believe -- and named his son (my dad) after the brother who died next to him in the trenches and, the story goes, gave his gasmask to my grandfather because he was in the better shape of the two. Is that confusing enough. Anyway, they were all such dirt poor people, trying to overcome such obstacles as I can hardly imagine. I mean, my dad lived in a lower east side tenement, shared a toilet with thirty or forty other people on his floor, a toilet that was basically a hole in the floor of a closet. Shorter version: this dead kid at Gitmo has/had a story, too. And loved ones, a family, a mother, father, etc. I don't believe the "process" putting people there has been shown to be sound; I believe the opposite, that it is unsound, and that the existence of such places is antithetical to the enlightened "freedom" we supposedly possess, and whose mythologized purity ALL our motives supposedly emanate from.

    Re: Guantanamo Suicide Victims Id'd : One Seized (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:39:36 PM EST
    Dadler - Very well said.