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Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatized

Marines Lance Cpl. Andrew Wright, 20, and Lance Cpl. Roel Ryan Briones, 21 were sent into Haditha to recover the bodies of those killed by fellow marines. According to their families, both suffered severe trauma as a result.

Briones' best friend, Lance Cpl. Miguel "T.J." Terrazas, had been killed the day of the attack by the roadside bomb, his mother said. He was still grieving when he was sent in to clean up the bodies of the Iraqi civilians.

One was a little girl who had been shot in the head, Susie Briones said. "He had to carry that little girl's body," she said, "and her head was blown off and her brain splattered on his boots."

Riones was on his second tour of duty in Iraq and had received a purple heart.

On Monday, both Marines were back at Camp Pendleton where base officials said several members of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division were being confined during the investigations.

The LA Times has a more in-depth interview with Lance Cpl. Briones.

Riones has gotten into some legal trouble since his return which his mother attributes to PTSD from Haditha. In a letter to the court, his mother wrote that he knows who was responsible for the shootings. Both Riones and his mother say the military hasn't done enough to help him and the other returning soldiers.

Susie Briones said she is angry at what she described as the Marines' failure to adequately "decompress" him and other Marines when they come home from combat. She said she was writing a book to help other families avoid what she and her son are going through.

"I used to be one of those Marines who said that post-traumatic stress is a bunch of bull," said Ryan Briones, who has prescriptions for anti-depressants and sleeping pills. "But all this stuff that keeps going through my head is eating me up. I need immediate help."

Here is the website for Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Division which was involved in the killings.

As I mentioned yesterday in a much more detailed post on Haditha, ABC News has reported:

ABC News has learned from sources close to the investigation that the ranking Marine in the group who entered the homes and is a focus of the investigation is 25-year-old Sgt. Frank Wuterich.

And here is the interview with 12 year old survivor Safa Younis. The ITN video of an interview with another young girl and survivor, 10 year old Imam Walid is here.

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  • *sigh* Even God Himself is going to have a hard time imparting mercy on these Marines. I know it's innocent until proven guilty, but the evidence is overwhelming of some very bad things happening and a blatant coverup. Why does 1/3 of the country still support Bush?

    Traumatized?? Suck it up maggot! The Neocons and their sycophants gave you fair warning that this "spreading democracy" thing was messy business. You have to crack a few eggs and all that rot. Just think...that little girl that dribbled brain tissue on your nice shiny boots is one less "terrist" we'll have to deal with later.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#3)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 10:55:42 PM EST
    Because they think they'll burn in Hell if they dont. Apparently that "outreach" to faith-based organizations really took. The mayberry machievellis know what they're doing.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#4)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 11:04:25 PM EST
    We can pray that they will become anti-war activists.

    senseless and beyond my ken...god help them.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 11:52:10 PM EST
    Squeaky: We can pray that they will become anti-war activists. Yes. And that they can regain enough of their psychological health to be able to do so, and to function as people. Terry Kindlon gave us a very insightful and well written post on January 29, 2006 about some of the impending consequences of PTSD that men like Briones and Wright, and the society as a whole btw, will have to deal with down the road:
    Because of such deliberate indifference at the top of the military command structure, the men and women in the lower ranks are being recycled through Iraq and Afghanistan over and over, and the potential for serious psychological problems at some future time becomes greater and greater with each combat tour. ... A year, or five or ten years from now--just as in the post-Vietnam 1970's and '80's--there is going to be a group of war veterans in trouble with the criminal law because of PTSD, and they are going to need knowledgeable, effective legal representation and, by then, as was the case with the Vietnam vets, the world will have forgotten the war, and the warriors will be pretty much on their own.


    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#7)
    by Aaron on Tue May 30, 2006 at 01:58:52 AM EST
    Remember early in this Iraq conflict when George W. Bush use the word "Crusade" in his official description. Is it just a coincidence that the resurgence in religiosity, not only in the populace but specifically in arms of the military, like the Air Force, and suddenly thousands of children are dying in the name of forwarding the cause of freedom, freedom defined as what's good for America, as defined by the Bush administration. At present, especially in the eyes of Muslims, it is looking more and more like a Crusade. Instead of worrying about some pansy ass reject getting choked up by Iraqi child gray matter and awful, we should just be spitting their little heads on pikes and lining the roadways with them. That will keep the local populace in line. Whenever they see an insurgent/freedom fighter in their neighborhood, frightened mother's will immediately send someone to warn the US troops, because they'll know that if they don't, they'll all be butchered like pigs. That's how you effectively combat a terrorist insurgency. US Marines should be encouraged to carry portable head-shrinking gear, and on their off-time they can be boiling heads and stringing them like beads and hang from their belts to encourage morale. And the mess halls can start serving Iraqi child stew on Sundays. No sense letting all that tender meat go to waste with all those hungry Marines. Nothing gives you an appetite like wreaking havoc and inflicting carnage. And what better way to encourage your troops then to let them eat their kill. Always a good way to reward your hunting animals Fear is our greatest ally. We will inflict such horrors upon the Iraqis that they'll be lining up to turn in the insurgents/freedom fighters. Just as the Nazis and the Ottomans and the Romans once did, for every US soldier that dies, 50 Iraqis will be put to death. Beheaded in their villages while their relatives are forced to watch. And there's always that old Christian favorite, the crucifixion. If an Iraqi commits an offense against a US soldier, just crucify him on his front door so that his family gets the privilege of watching their slow death. These are time proven tactics, practiced numerous times in Middle East and throughout human history. You crush all opposition with an iron fist. Then you systematically subjugate the population and place people in control who will uphold your interests. It's called conquest people, if we're going to play the game, let's play to win. It's time to stop pussyfooting around. ------------ By the time the next president takes office, it won't matter if it's a Democrat, Republican, independent or Ralph Nader. Not even Ralph will be able to pull out of the Middle East and Afghanistan once this administration is through using the US Armed Forces as another quick fix in a place that chews up and eats quick fixes for breakfast. Here's my prediction for the future, Hillary will be a one term president who will keep us embedded in Iraq and Afghanistan, followed by a series of despots cloaking themselves in the guise of Republicans and holding up the Constitution, patriotism and freedom in defense of this Middle East Crusade. I'll just sign off by saying, ashamed to be an American on this Memorial Day.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Tue May 30, 2006 at 03:00:14 AM EST
    -- More than a half-century after hostilities ended in Korea, a document from the war's chaotic early days has come to light _ a letter from the U.S. ambassador to Seoul, informing the State Department that American soldiers would shoot refugees approaching their lines. The letter _ dated the day of the Army's mass killing of South Korean refugees at No Gun Ri in 1950 _ is the strongest indication yet that such a policy existed for all U.S. forces in Korea, and the first evidence that that policy was known to upper ranks of the U.S. government.
    snip
    Estimates vary on the number of dead at No Gun Ri. American soldiers' estimates ranged from under 100 to "hundreds" dead; Korean survivors say about 400, mostly women and children, were killed at the village 100 miles southeast of Seoul, the South Korean capital. Hundreds more refugees were killed in later, similar episodes, survivors say.
    So it was policy, supported by those high up in the government. It only took 19 years to start to investigate and the outcome?
    The No Gun Ri killings were documented in a Pulitzer Prize-winning story by The Associated Press in 1999, which prompted a 16-month Pentagon inquiry. The Pentagon concluded that the No Gun Ri shootings, which lasted three days, were "an unfortunate tragedy" _ "not a deliberate killing." It suggested panicky soldiers, acting without orders, opened fire because they feared that an approaching line of families, baggage and farm animals concealed enemy troops.
    LINK So I think history is quite clear that we can not count on the military to police its own, despite all the clims of the neocon syncophants to the contrary.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#9)
    by DonS on Tue May 30, 2006 at 04:06:18 AM EST
    CNN headline: Lawmakers told to "brace" themselves. Yeah, that's the ticket. Poor, poor little rubber-stamping lawmakers. Got to watch out for their sensitivities. Pass the smelling salts. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/29/marines.haditha/index.html The whole company "snapped".. Yeah, right. They thought they were carrying out Shrub's holy war against the infidels. Let's move on. (only slight snark)

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jo on Tue May 30, 2006 at 05:30:02 AM EST
    her head was blown off and her brain splattered on his boots."
    I apologize in advance because this will sound gross and insensitive (or perhaps monsterous), but if her head is blown off, how is it that her brain comes to be splattered on his boots. Did he kick her brain with his boots? I've never seen a person with their head blown off, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but it just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I only mention this because Talkleft participants seem to have a penchant for disregarding statements which contain inconsistancies, and this appears to be one.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Tue May 30, 2006 at 05:46:24 AM EST
    I've never seen a person with their head blown off, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but it just doesn't seem to make sense to me
    . see here Happy?

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 05:58:21 AM EST
    Jo - No criticism is allowed. Especially if you ask questions regarding the party line. So just remember that presently many on the thread is involved in spasms of self hatred.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#13)
    by Punchy on Tue May 30, 2006 at 06:11:42 AM EST
    I've never seen a person with their head blown off, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but it just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I cannot believe that this is what you've chosen to focus on...Most likely "head blown off" is a euphanism for "head blown apart", as a bullet wouldnt so much sever the head from the body as it could simply rupture the skull (I cannot believe I writing this). A skull-less child (?!?!?) would have her grey matter falling out, as it's torn into pieces from the bullet trajectory. Happy breakfast! I'm sure PPJ will disagree and blame it all on Democrats.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jo on Tue May 30, 2006 at 06:37:34 AM EST
    Soccordad, thank you. I never need to see that again, but thanks. PPJ, I don't think it is self-hatred. I think it is frustration. USA should be a beacon of freedom and human rights, and the media is not portraying us in that light. I can understand why they may seem hostile during discussions of ongoing current events. Some opinions from some of the people who support the war (wars) and the president also seem to be radical and narrow-minded in their thinking, and seem to portay an acceptance of the belief that all muslims are evil, and that it is okay to destroy a soverein nation in order to establish America's choice of government in that region. The fact that this is done under a "christian banner" makes USA appear to be taking actions similar to the radical muslims (that the death of innocents is excusable in light of our spiritual responsibility). And before you say that we have this right because of 9/11, I will need to see some evidence of who exactly attacked us, and the story needs to not change. It cannot be Al Qeada last week, Saddam and Irag this week, and Iran next week. Peachy, Okay. I took the term "blown off" a little bit too literally. Thanks for clearing that up.

    It is not self-hatred. It is not even Bushco hatred. It is horror, revulsion and, mostly, grief. They were people. You can call them terrorists, you can call them evil scum-sucking pigs, but they were people, with homes, families, loves, fears and joys. Why would I hate myself for feeling absolute grief at the destruction of people? It is not my intent to be contentious, or nasty to you personally, Jim, but I believe that your statement is a perfect example of what my Pysch prof called "projection". My conscience is clear, but my heart is broken, again.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#16)
    by Repack Rider on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:21:04 AM EST
    No criticism is allowed. Especially if you ask questions regarding the party line. Are you suggesting that TL is exactly like a Bush "Town Hall" meeting? Please. TL lets you spew here, but we would not be permitted to voice any dissent at a public appearance by Mr. Bush, and if we had the wrong bumper sticker on the car, we would be denied entry. Is that the kind of "democracy" you like?

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#17)
    by John Mann on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:32:21 AM EST
    So just remember that presently many on the thread is involved in spasms of self hatred.
    You become more incoherent every time your fingers hit the keyboard, Jim.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 10:22:33 AM EST
    "Spasms of self hatred" Exactly the meme thats making the rounds at the right wing sites. As usual the hell-bent-for-leather squadron of keyboard commandos is in perfect synch - carrying on with their "grim resolve." Their guts and other peoples blood.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#19)
    by cpinva on Tue May 30, 2006 at 10:44:09 AM EST
    has it occured to anyone, besides me, that a huge part of the problem right now is the vaunted "all volunteer" military? this is not meant to denigrate those who volunteer and serve, but to point out that it's a lot easier to misuse a wholly volunteer force, than one made up of both volunteers and conscripts, draftees if you will. draftees sort of have to be convinced that what they're being asked to do is the right thing, otherwise, they get testy. volunteers are just assumed to agree, and are expected to follow orders without question. another issue is that of the "professional" soldier, the guy who's trained for 20 years, without ever seeing combat. i read an interesting story in yesterday's wp, about a husband/soldier & wife/anti-war activist. he gets orders to iraq, and confides that he secretly is looking forward to it, to put to use all the training he's done for the past 17 years. guess what? i'm not sure that's the kind of guy i want in a war, someone who looks forward to it, rather than someone who's there only because he/she has to be, to get the job done. i'm not sure what the bright line is, but i think a good start would be to re-implement the draft. start putting every family at risk, instead of only those who volunteer. how else to know whether the country truly supports mr. bush's foreign policy?

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#20)
    by peacrevol on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:13:59 AM EST
    draftees sort of have to be convinced that what they're being asked to do is the right thing, otherwise, they get testy. volunteers are just assumed to agree, and are expected to follow orders without question.
    The first thing you learn in basic training to be a marine is to follow orders without question. No matter if you are draftee or volunteer. A marine who does not follow orders without question will be the first to become a casualty. You have to have all marines on the same page so to speak and if you have some questioning their orders, there will be a lot of lives lost b/c of indecision. In a fire fight you dont have time to ask questions. If you're given an order, you just do it and that's the way it has to be. Marines understand this, whether drafted or volunteered.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#21)
    by john horse on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:20:50 PM EST
    Why were even battle hardened Marines traumatized by what they witnessed in the aftermath of the Haditha massacre? They've seen death. They've seen the horrors of war. I believe what happened is that what they encountered at Haditha was a form of cognitive disonance. You can endure the horrors of war if you believe that the cause is right. However, the indiscriminate killing of families including old women and babies raises questions about the righteousness of our cause, that is if you have a conscience. Isn't this the type of stuff that Saddam used to do?

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:25:42 PM EST
    Jo - I again note that we would not be in Iraq if 9/11 had not happened. And yes, the people who attacked were Saudis and yes I believe that the SA government has their hands in this all the way up to their elbows. But the problem is no one wants to take SA out and Iran out and Iraq out at the same time. The world's oil supply would collapse and we would have a depression that would make 1929 look like Christmas. And yes, everyone did believe that Saddam had WMD's and yes, everyone did believe he would use them. That the Demos decided to use the war as a political issue is obvious and damanable. So Bush decided to take Iraq first, and Iran next. What he didn't count on was the opposition in the US giving the remainder of the Baath party and other straggling terrorists enough hope that they would hang on in hopes they can pull of another Vietnam. cpinva - Draft? No. Universal Military Service. Yes indeed. Now. deanyb - Your concern for me is much appreciated, but instead of BS psychobabble what I need is a sponsor for the World Series of Poker. You put up the $10,000, I'll pay my own expenses, and we'll split the winnings 50-50.
    USA should be a beacon of freedom and human rights, and the media is not portraying us in that light.
    The fact that the media is not portraying it properly has nothing to do with who we are. The fact that you find their actions important reinforces my claim that the Left basically believes that America is always wrong and has some serious "self worth" issues. We are in Iraq because it is but one battle in an on going war. All Moslems are not terrorists, but all the terrorists in this affair have been Moslem. Read what OBL has said here and here. and you will see that there is no room for discussion. John Mann - Take an even strain and read what OBL said, again. Sooner or later you will have to figure it out. Hmmmm, that's not true. You probably won't. RePack - Nor did Clinton, etc. So your point is invalid.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:40:38 PM EST
    ppj, please try to deal with the subject, PTSD of marines when having to cart away evidence of war crimes, and stop your lying about strawmen. et al, please don't feed the troll.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slado on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:59:45 PM EST
    What I love about lefty trolls is thier ability to instantly accept any statement that fits their pre-conceived notions on Iraq and Bush. "If" the marines committed war crimes then they will be punished. Because unlike Saddam and Al Queada we play by the rules. If you don't support the war you will use this as an excuse to justify your position that the war is a mistake, Bush is a war criminal blah, blah blah even though this incident is no more usefull as a justification that the whole war is wrong then saying because we opened a new school in the same province the whole war is right. Will it hurt moral, yes, will it set us back, yes, but the greater good continues forward while the harpies (lefty war critics) keep trying to win an argument they lost in 2004 when Bush invaded and in 2004 when Kerry lost. Also here's at least one reporter from the right wing network CNN that is holding judgement till the facts comeout. CNN The argument for war is over. We're in it for good until we win or lose. There are no other options. If you didn't get that from the joint news conference last week between Bush and Blair then you aren't paying attention. I wish some on this site would hold the enemy to 1/10 of the standards that they hold our marines too and would recognize that 99.9% of the soldiers in Iraq are doing their best.

    W. and the wingnuts keep saying we have to keep the killing alive in Iraq until we win. OK, so what is "winning"? There is no one to surrender. We defeated their military, remember? We disbanded their military, remember? So what do we get when we "win"? How will we know when we win? You fools can't answer that simple question. When Britain "conquered" the Middle East, did they win? No, they were subsequently driven out as all imperialistic armies eventually are. The French and the US were driven out by a third world army in Viet Nam. The French were driven out by the poor in Algeria. The Russians were driven out of Afghanistan. The occupying power never "wins". It's only a matter of time until it loses.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#27)
    by Sailor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 04:37:24 PM EST
    what's funny is that the two wingnuts can't keep on the subject matter
    Of course they can't deal with the subject matter; who can deal with people executing seniors in wheelchairs, mothers and daughters, little children. I don't blame them for avoiding the subject, but I condemn them for excusing the atrocity and making it about them. It's just despicable.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimcee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 05:13:06 PM EST
    Although the 'invective-ites' have come to this thread may I say that what happened in Haditha is an absolute atrocity and those who were involved need to be tried and sentenced. That two families were murdered in Iraq is not a strange thing, it happens almost daily. A suicide bomber, a car bomber, an IED small arms fire...the strange thing is that it was US Marines who appear to be the culprits, not other Iraqis or mercenaries. The Marines will be tried, evidence presented and if found guilty they will be sentenced accordingly. Meanwhile those who bomb the marketplace are given a look-away pass by many people. Funny how Iraqi lives appear more precious to some people when it is Americans that kill Iraqis than it is when terrorists/fellow Iraqis kill the innocent. Saddam never had a problem with killing anyone that he or his sons chose. Needless to say that those who agree with George Galloway devalue Iraqi innocents at the hands of Saddam and the current insurgency. Saddam is being tried. These Marines will be tried. I wouldn't be suprised if the Marines get a more dignified trial and most likely a longer sentence for thier crimes than Saddam gets.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 05:30:12 PM EST
    jimcee - This horrific mess could have been avoided; which was what most of the people who opposed the invasion were attempting to do. And those 2,500 young men and women and God knows how many Iraqis would be alive today. Yet you guys wanna say that we're the ones who care LESS about dead Americans. Excuse me while I LMAO.

    "The soldiers found no insurgents in the village on the morning of March 16, 1968. The soldiers, one platoon of which was led by Lt. William Calley, killed hundreds of civilians - primarily old men, women, children, and babies. Some were tortured or raped. Dozens were herded into a ditch and executed with automatic firearms. At one stage, Calley expressed his intent to throw hand grenades into a trench filled with villagers." an excerpt from wickepedia on Mai Lai. One person was court martialed, but then pardoned by Nixon. Yeah, Jimcee real dignified.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#31)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue May 30, 2006 at 06:26:37 PM EST
    Funny how Iraqi lives appear more precious to some people when it is Americans that kill Iraqis than it is when terrorists/fellow Iraqis kill the innocent It's not funny at all. It's BS. So is your troll comment.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimcee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:14:57 PM EST
    Jondee, You are most correct, if the US and its allies hadn't invaded Iraq which subsequently lead to the alledged Haditha Massacre this wouln't be an issue. As a matter of fact if Saddam was still in control of Iraq, as you seem to think is preferable to US/Iraqi control then the number of villages and families destroyed would be undocumented and so therefore to you at least, non-existent. That you would defend status quo facism, which is exactly what you do when you say that the US is the war criminal. Sounds like tacit approval of fascism would make Charles Lindburgh proud. Che, We've both been here a long time and you know I'm not a troll just because I express views that upset you. You just call me a troll because you have nothing to add to the conversation to prove that what I say is false. Name-calling ends an arguement because obviously one side has run out of arguement. I come here because I like to be challenged intellectually. Name calling reduces those odds by 100% and honestly if you think I'm some sort of right-wing nut then 1)Visit some of the RW nutty sights and 2) Visit some nutty left-wing sights. They both have a lot in common. There both nuts. So address my points and save the invective because invective is becoming all too common in political and social discourse today.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#33)
    by soccerdad on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:26:39 PM EST
    The Marines will be tried, evidence presented and if found guilty they will be sentenced accordingly
    . History with Korea, VN and Iraq all suggest otherwise. Or at best they will find the new calley and sweep it under the rug.[note my link above wrt Korea.]
    Meanwhile those who bomb the marketplace are given a look-away pass by many people.
    The standard BS strawman. No one here condones what they do. But we have little control over what they do. These soldiers should be more under our control and reflect badly on our country.
    Needless to say that those who agree with George Galloway devalue Iraqi innocents at the hands of Saddam and the current insurgency.
    Yet more non-sequiters trying to degarde everyone who disagrees with your position.
    I wouldn't be suprised if the Marines get a more dignified trial and most likely a longer sentence for thier crimes than Saddam gets.
    Delusional. Just more empty crap whose sole purpose is to try and deflect attention away from what our soldiers did. What a puke. And a self-rightous one at that.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#34)
    by Repack Rider on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:26:52 PM EST
    everyone did believe that Saddam had WMD's I didn't. The REASON that I didn't was that Mr. Bush and Mr. Powell had already been caught lying about WMD, and because the inspectors in Iraq weren't locating any even with the help of "We know where they are" Dick Cheney. Once we knew he was lying about WMD, there was no longer any reason to believe anything Mr. Bush said. About anything. Don't make me out to be as dumb as you are.

    deleted

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimcee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:58:19 PM EST
    Soccerdad, Thank you for proving my point. No way did I try to deflect what those marines are accused of doing but I am willing to put thier action in persective. If they are found guilty by a courts martial then justice is served. Invective is a shallow arguement but apparently it is the only one you have. Terrorists bomb on a regular basis in Iraq and that is Bush's fault. He made them do it. At least that seems to be your implication. Saddam tortured and gassed his own people, aided by corrupt politicians in Great Britain, Germany, Russia and France with UN approval. Heck Kofi Anan's son was on the take. Terrorists bombings in the last serveral days have killed more innocent Iraqis than those marines and that is better for you? Your reply refuses to answer an honest question: Why was it better that Saddam et al could gas, murder and torture people at will and it didn't register on your scale of bad behavior but when US Marines are culpable for the same type of crime on a much lower level that that is more atrocious than the Ba'athists nastiness? Ask the Kurds what despotism is, ask the marsh Arabs, ask those who had relatives disappear during Saddam's reign and then come back here with what those people think about American intervention in Iraq. Soccerdad you are obviously someone who hates Bush. I don't. I don't like him that much but I do agree that if you can depose those that are fascists (and constantly threatening the West) and at least try to create something better in the vacuum that was produced by the US invasion, you have my support. Although I'm too lazy to research it I would bet that less Iraqis are being put to torture and death now then there was under Saddam. Prove me wrong and of course leave out the invective or bodily functions. And again I condemn the actions of the accused Marines if they are proven in court. I'll refrain from using your rather rude references but I will go as far as saying that you are incapable of competently making you own arguement and that is why you resort to name-calling. If you are a representitive of the modern Left then the Left is doomed to swim in the kiddie pool. I believe that the Marines will be proscuted and will serve time which is more than I can say for the 'insurgent' murderers that operate to the glee of many anti-war folks.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#36)
    by aw on Tue May 30, 2006 at 09:11:30 PM EST
    What I love about lefty trolls
    ...is that they post on a site called "Talk Left?"
    ...but i think a good start would be to re-implement the draft. start putting every family at risk, instead of only those who volunteer. how else to know whether the country truly supports mr. bush's foreign policy?
    Fairly recent history will point to the answer. VietNam stuck in our craws eventually (we seem to be a little slow on the uptake in this country). However, our collective memories seem to be kicking in--the polls show there is little confidence in Bush's adventures abroad right now. Watch what happens if Congress even breathes the word "draft".

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:09:23 PM EST
    Jimcee, The paragraph I quoted sought no intellectual challenge. It was sarcastic and it's opnly purpose was to inflame the discuassion. Oh yeah, and these atrocities are going on all the time. Why is there no outrage in Iraq? Because this is nothing new to them anymore.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#38)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:10:49 PM EST
    Whew baby, it's late and my eyes are blurry. So solly. See?

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#39)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:57:46 AM EST
    Jimcee you have no point other than the standard right wing nonsense albeit couched in better sounding words. You make claims about us that aren;t true History says they will not receive the appropiate punishment. they tried to cover this up but failed because of pictures on a cell phone as I said we have no control over the insurgents Yet you dont address these points just repeat your nonsense. Invective is all you and your neocon buddies deserve

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:34:50 AM EST
    aw - If you go back two years the Demos were (again) assuring themselves that they had won. The high fives were a bit premature. If go back eighteen months the Repubs were dancing in the streets. Which was also a bit premature. This issue would have been huge 15 years ago, but there is too much media available now to allow it to dominate. Most people will say, if they did it, punish'em. They will then move on And no politician would dare bring up the draft unless it was to claim the other side was for it. Truth is, we need Universal Military Service. If you live here, you serve here. Everyone could do something, and everyone could be trained and cross trained in various military skills, for say, two years, and then refreshed for two weeks until age 30. What that would do is two things. First it would provide a pool of people to draw from if we ever get involved in a war that needed large numbers of troops. We don't now, we depend on speed and fire power. That may not always be true. Secondly, it would let everyone have a feel for the military, and insure that the military remains firmly under civilian control, which it is now. Twenty years from now, especially if the relationship remains as is, that may not be.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:17:55 AM EST
    Terrorists bomb on a regular basis in Iraq and that is Bush's fault. He made them do it. At least that seems to be your implication.
    there weren't terrorists in iraq until bush invaded. Whether iraq would be better off under saddam is a question for the iraqi people to answer. Since they have fewer schools, less income, less oil production, less water and electricity but a hell of a lot more deaths I wonder how they'd ansewr ig given a choice of turning back the clock.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#42)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:42:57 AM EST
    Truth is, we need Universal Military Service. If you live here, you serve here.
    Its the last thing we need. Having a big armed forces will only encourage the neocons to misuse it and invade more countries unprovoked. In fact it is the glorification of military service by the neocons, chicken hawks, and their sycophants that help promote the misuse of the military

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:03:38 AM EST
    The putz would really like a South American-style right wing junta, though he'd never have the cajones to come right out and say it explicitly. Maybe Wilhelm Reich was right, some people are hard-wired for fascism.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#44)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:14:22 AM EST
    Maybe Wilhelm Reich was right, some people are hard-wired for fascism.
    I'm starting to think thats correct

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#45)
    by desertswine on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:38:38 AM EST
    There's some evidence of that. We may make less conscious decision making than we think (I think).

    BS psychobabble: "spasms of self hatred" Science:" Projection is a psychological DEFENSE MECHANISM whereby one "projects" ones own UNDESIRABLE thoughts, motivations, desires, feelings - basically parts of oneself- onto someone else (usually another person, but projection onto animals, inanimate objects - even RELIGIOUS CONSTRUCTS- also occurs) The principle of projection is well established. Projection is related to DENIAL, the only defense mechanism that some argue is more PRIMITIVE then projection" source: wikipedia ( I'd link, but I'm a techno-doof ) Sailor- sorry for troll feeding. I couldn't help myself.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:03:37 AM EST
    Sailor-
    there weren't terrorists in iraq until bush invaded.
    Are there 'terrorists' in Iraq now? Or are they guerrillas, freedom fighters, and the resistance. If a 'terrorist' is measured by how afraid s/he makes people the Americans are #1 terrorist in Iraq and Afghanistan. If terrorists disregard international law and the Geneva conventions well again America is a terrorist nation under Bush. Pachacutec called into question the WOT the other day at FDL. It is a lie. I have also never thought the wot any more than a way for the WH to increase their power over its citizens and justify moving unconscionable amounts of money into the Military Industrial Complex. All excuses for bad behavior and limiting civil rights center around the phrase 'well, what do you expect, we are a nation at war'. What war? The WOT is the same as the WOD. It will never end and is only called a war for dishonest reasons. It is about $$ and power for the few in on the grab.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 31, 2006 at 11:34:51 AM EST
    deanyb - Let me see, you have never met someone, just read a few comments on a blog and then you decide to analyze them. That is psycho babble and I don't care how you slice it. You can care about the deaths, you can condemn the acts, you can feel sad. But when you go from there into politcial rants, etc., then you have moved from the act over to something else. I believe it is a position of the Left that America is always wrong, and this stems from self hatred. Like any "overhead" statement I would agree that it is not 100% true, but is true in the majority. And I don't claim to know if the America Bad comes from the self hatred, or the self hatred comes from the belief that America is bad... and they live here enjoying all the benefits while people are starving in... (you pick it). In the meantime, how about the $10K buy-in????

    Let me see, you have never met someone, just read a few comments on a blog and then you decide to analyze them. PPJ, you've done the same thing here in regards to telling folks that they don't know military history like you do, if they've never been in the service they can't know what it's like, etc. You may have waited a few more posts before making your attacks here and there on various folks, but it's funny to see you hoist on your own petard here today.
    Injustice is relatively easy to bear. What stings is justice.

    H. L. Mencken



    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:00:53 PM EST
    "I believe it is a position of the Left that America is always wrong" Rush 101. According to that definition "the Left" isnt part of America and you guys ARE America. No sale. Take another Zig Ziegler seminar.

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#51)
    by desertswine on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:23:47 PM EST
    Another reason that the Iraqis are so grateful. "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives." He said doctors tried but failed to save the baby after his sister was brought to the hospital

    Re: Marines Who Cleaned Up After Haditha Traumatiz (none / 0) (#52)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed May 31, 2006 at 04:58:46 PM EST
    I believe it is a position of the Left that America is always wrong, What garbage.