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Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver Talks

Update: The cab driver's story about his second trip to pick up players at the party becomes even more suspect. CNN reports:

Less than an hour after he says he picked up Seligmann and a friend, Mostafa says he got another call -- at around 1:07 a.m. March 14 -- to pick up people at the same North Buchanan address. He said he saw about 20 people on the lawn of the home, "yelling, talking back" to each other, including one African-American woman who he said didn't appear to be injured.

Four men got into the taxi, Mostafa said, and they appeared to be drunk. One of them said, "She's just a stripper," Mostafa quoted.

When the police arrived at the house at 12:55 am, two minutes after the second dancer's first 911 call, the house appeared deserted. The women were already gone. They left at 12:41.

*****
Original Post:

In the Duke lacrosse players case, the search warrants of the indicted players' rooms were filed today. You can view the warrant here.

An affidavit for a warrant to search the dorm room of Collin Finnerty, 19, showed police were looking for clothing from suspect or the accuser, as well as property belonging to the alleged victim, who told police she was raped by three Duke lacrosse athletes. It also mentions looking for digital recordings, still photos and e-mail correspondence.

The search warrant returns, showing what was seized, were made public this afternoon:

according to an inventory made public this afternoon, they seized only a New York Times article about the case and an envelope sent to Finnerty in September from a woman with a Boston College address.

Moez Mostafa, the cabdriver who responded to Reade Seligmann's 12:19 a.m. call to pick him up a block and a half from the party, confirms his alibi and says he acted normal.

ABC News reported on the alibi yesterday:

A series of time-stamped photographs viewed by ABC News show the girls dancing at midnight and at 12:02 a.m. By 12:24 a.m., a receipt reviewed by ABC indicates that Seligmann's ATM card was used at a nearby Wachovia bank. In a written statement to the defense also reviewed by ABC, a cabdriver confirms picking up Seligmann and a friend a block and a half from the party, and driving them to the bank. By 12:25 a.m., he was making a phone call to a girlfriend out of state.

What did Seligmann do after leaving the bank? The taxi driver remembers taking him to a drive-thru fast-food restaurant and then dropping him off at his dorm. Duke University records show that Seligmann's card was used to gain entry at 12:46 a.m.

WRAL reports the cabdriver says he returned to the house later to pick up another player.

In an interview on MSNBC, Mostafa said he returned to the house later to pick up another customer. He said he remembered that person "said in a loud voice, 'She just a stripper.'"

Asked whether the second fare was complaining about the stripper or whether it appeared something bad had happened to her, Mostafa initially said he didn't "have any information about what was going on in the house."

"When I look back, he look like he mad at the stripper. Or the stripper, she going to call the police and she just a stripper. ... It look to me like somebody get hurt. But what kind of harm, ... I have no idea."

That part of his story seems off, since when police arrived at 12:55, the house seemed deserted. Could he have gotten back to the party house ten minutes after he dropped Seligmann off at his dorm? Not being familiar with Durham, I have no idea, but I wonder, did he mix up his times or get a little carried away?

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  • TL, I'm not familiar with the campus either, but how big can the campus be? And isn't the house just off-campus? Seligmann's card was swiped at 12:46, but he could have been dropped off earlier and hung around talking with the other guy for few minutes or something before he went inside. Anyway, even if Seligmann did go straight inside, it seems likely to me that the cabbie could have gotten back to the house w/in a few minutes or so. I imagine the cabbie's phone record will show when he was called by the second group. Also, don't cabs usually have trip meters? If his did, would it show times?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:12:25 PM EST
    Is it possible they went to the cash station because the stripper told them the amount it would cost for sex? Since he was coming back to his dorm, I do not understand why he felt the need to run out and get cash. I would understand it if he was going to a bar to have a few cocktails, but why get cash and return to your room? Did he get the cash, get fellated and return to his room? I don't understand the cash station trip at all.

    Jl, they went to the ATM, then to buy something to eat, and then home to the dorm.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#4)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:16:03 PM EST
    SUO, Perhaps the reason why the team members split in a hurry was because they were afraid they were going to get busted for underage drinking and possible drug use at the party. They knew they had done something that would cause the dancers to call the police on them. The Rita Cosby interview that was linked to in the thread below which talks of the team members cleaning up all the detritis from the party and splitting right away in a sort of panic. It suggests guilty knowledge, but about what?

    "I don't understand the cash station trip at all." Er, maybe he wanted to go thru a fast food restaurant and pay the driver.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#6)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:21:08 PM EST
    He also needed to pay for the cab.

    Is it possible they went to the cash station because the stripper told them the amount it would cost for sex? Since he was coming back to his dorm, I do not understand why he felt the need to run out and get cash.
    He got cash, becuz they went to go get something to eat, after he left the house in the cab. That is what you are missing

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:23:53 PM EST
    Thanks, makes sense now. I read about the fast food trip earlier but it slipped my mind. I am getting old.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#9)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:25:09 PM EST
    When I was in college I remember times of running from keggers when word came that the cops were coming or already there--and we were of age. Even if your guilty of nothing, who wants to deal with the cops if you don't have to. So you take off. But, we never took the time to clean up after ourselves. This is the strange part, if true.

    I agree chew2, I don't think it's too far a stretch for the girl to have said something like "I'm going to call the cops." which caused the guys to clean up and scram. If so, as stripping is not illegal afaik, it may not be too much of a stretch to think she would threaten to call the cops if (she felt) her stripping money was stolen. More likely she would want to call the police as well if she was involved in a physical scuffle over the money. One thing about the racial insults doesn't figure to me - there was a black teammate at the party, does it make sense that any of the white guys would get racial with her with their black teammate present?

    Seven of the team members had either court dates or deferred prosecutions for underage drinking, open container, public urination, noise violations and obtaining property by false pretenses charges. I don't know how many of the seven were at the party, but the hosts had reason to end the party quick. Dan Flannery had an April 18 court date for noise violation and his roommate, David Evans had a deffered prosecution for noise violation and an open container violation. That would be reason enough for him to tell everyone to get the hell out of their house if they thought one of the women called 911.

    It seems to me his actions were all about creating "reasonable doubt" as to where he was at any given time. Everything he did results in him having a documented, public presence.

    lorelynn, are you suggesting that he planned the whole taxi/ATM/food/dorm trip specifically to give him an alibi?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#14)
    by azbballfan on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:48:09 PM EST
    Read the warrant on the link. The police didn't collect any computers or electronic media. All they seized was a news article dated April 4 and an envelope with his name on it postmarked in Sept '05. With all the lawyers involved, does the DA think he'll be able to secure any relevant evidence that the defense lawyers haven't screened?

    Crap. Sorry. link.

    Chase, your link doesn't work, but this is my source, also probably not definitive...

    I mean lets be honest here and use common sense, the guys got out of there quickly not becuz a rape occured, but becuz they were drunk, and there was underage drinking, and because of the racial slurs. We know this because of the phone call that the 2nd dancer made. All she had on them was racial slurs. If she had more, she would of said more. I dont think there were any drugs there taken by the boys, but I am sure the dancer was on drugs, or taking something that made her have that reaction. If you listen to the 911 call made by the 2nd dancer, you can tell that its a fake cry. These ladies are both liars, and the boys are innocent, but did disrespect those women. And to be honest there are no clean players in this game. I see it hard to disrespect a woman who disrespects herself in the first place. Lastly, I am African American, and I will tell you now, I dont think that race plays much of an issue here. This thing was about money, and these dancers tried to get over on those boys by coming there and dancing for a few minutes and getting away with the money. I figure this to be true, becuz this scenario fits well with the accuser from the 2002 incident in which she stole the Cabbie's car from a lap dance. She is used to doing this, and she was trying to make a quick $400, and the boys was trying to get their money back. She went further in the dirt, when she was found passed out in the Kroger parking lot, and in order to stay out of jail, she screamed rape. Do the boys deserve what is happening here? Well yes and no, its not illegal to hire a stripper. Its also not illegal to pursue your money back for a service not rendered. But how do you do that with a stripper service. These women know that they can get over on their "johns" so they have probably taken many men like this. When they know they can say the man tried to rape them, or do something wrong. This is why they waited for the boys to say something stupid so they could have an excuse to jet out of there and make there money. They wanted to use these stupid white boys. But isnt that the name of the business? No doubt both of these women are tramps/trifling/conniving/hookers..but these boys are no angels either. In the end, I do hope that the accuser gets dealt with. Rape is to heinous of a crime to accuse and it be false. If we dont start holding women account who scream false rape, then we hurt those who are really raped. I think those people are care about rape, and violence against women, should go in, and get this woman and drag her front and center to the public eye, and make her an example. I dont see them doing that.

    SUO: Does the corrected link work? Hard to tell with cache and all...

    Chase, yes.

    I don't think the defense is going to deny the racial slurs. cbs.com:
    The lawyer, Joe Cheshire, told Regan: "Some of the boys felt they'd been ripped off, and so they were angry. And were there ugly words that may have been spoken that are inappropriate? Yes. Was there any kind of rape that happened? No."
    I think they are going to, believe it or not, try to justify them: heraldsun.com
    Defense lawyers say the alleged victim was helped to the second dancer's car. The second dancer then got into a conversation with the lacrosse players, which included hurling racial insults about their manhood, the players told their lawyers.


    This case is degrading to all men who claim to be innocent. Is it the Media's fault. I say no because if people were smart they wouldn't have voted for George Bush or John Kerry.It's time to end this charade and vote all them people out of office.Including Nifong.

    imho, earlier today, in reponse to this comment by someone to you...
    on this thread I happen to fall on your side of the issue - that is, my sympathies lie with the accuser and not the accused.
    ...you said...
    My sympathies lie with the truth.
    How do you reconcile that with:
    I think [the players] are going to, believe it or not, try to justify [their racial slurs]: It clearly sounds like your sympathies lie with the accuser. No?

    That would be reason enough for him to tell everyone to get the hell out of their house if they thought one of the women called 911.
    Totally agree. This guy I know told me he was in a similar situation (that is on probabation) and any mention of the cops sent him running. So if that's true, this is making a lot of sense to me. SUO:
    One thing about the racial insults doesn't figure to me - there was a black teammate at the party, does it make sense that any of the white guys would get racial with her with their black teammate present?
    I have read he wasn't in attendance. I wouldn't call the source exactly "reputable", but here's the < a href="http://www.rainbowpush.org/FMPro?-db=rpodata.fp5&-format=rainbowpush/data06/detailcommentary.htm&-lay=main&-sortfield=date&-sortorder=descend&category=commentary&-recid=33440&-find=">link so judge for yourself.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#24)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 01:26:24 PM EST
    SUO, There might not be a contradiction. Maybe thats still with the truth. No?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 01:27:34 PM EST
    Say "cops" at any college keg party of any type...people scatter. Proves nothing.

    Also we cannot say that racial slurs or derogatory comments were not made by the 2 strippers either... come on...we know these women said something. They were trying to get away with those guys money, so the strippers started this whole fiasco. All the strippers had to do was give them there money back. But that was never there intention in the first place. These girls wanted to get in and get out of there fast. But they did not do what they were paid for. so why would the boys not be upset becuz of that?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#27)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 01:30:03 PM EST
    If we move the arrival time earlier towards 11:30pm do the alibis break down? There is reportedly a 27 minute period when the ladies are supposedly in the bathroom and no photos are available. I've read that it's often the case that the escort is supposed to call in to her agency after arrival and the collection of the fee, and sometimes after also to ensure her safety. If so, there may be phone agency records available to confirm the time of arrival. As many have pointed out, the time stamps on the photos may be innaccurate.

    Peaches, it's the "believe it or not" comment that makes me curious. Let's let imho answer.

    Okay, as to Durham geography - Duke has two campuses, east and west. The freshman dorms are on east campus, ACROSS the street from the apartment where the party was. The other dorms are on west campus. It took me five minutes exactly from my house in this neighborhood to get to the center of west campus (I had to time it perfectly when I used to pick up my husband since there is no parking around there), and I had a couple more lights to go through than from the party house. So, yes it would be totally possible for the taxi driver's story to be exactly right.

    sarcastic unnamed one posted to me:
    ...you said...
    My sympathies lie with the truth.
    . How do you reconcile that with:
    I think [the players] are going to, believe it or not, try to justify [their racial slurs]:
    It clearly sounds like your sympathies lie with the accuser. No?
    In that quote, my "they" refers to "the defense," by which I meant the defense attorneys - not the players themselves. I have not denied my distain for the behavior of many of the attorneys involved in this case. And I have no problem with reconciling that with:
    My sympathies lie with the truth.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#31)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 01:57:00 PM EST
    Since racial slurs don't appear in the indictments, it hardly matters whether somebody tries to justify them or not. Pitching a racial slur does not make somebody innocent of rape guilty of rape. Where are all the defense lawyers that used to hang out here? You know. The ones who thought that being arrested was ironclad proof of innocence.

    Fair enough imho, I didn't read your post carefully enough.

    Hi TL, You wrote:
    When the police arrived at the house at 12:55 am, two minutes after the second dancer's first 911 call, the house appeared deserted. The women were already gone. They left at 12:41.
    A claim that the women "left" at 12:41 is supported ONLY by the fact that there is a photograph of the women at the car that is time-stamped 12:41. Bissey, however, has the women leaving but three minutes before the polie came at 12:55. The first 911 call was placed at 12:52. The police stayed at the house until 1:06. You wrote:
    Less than an hour after he says he picked up Seligmann and a friend, Mostafa says he got another call -- at around 1:07 a.m. March 14 -- to pick up people at the same North Buchanan address. He said he saw about 20 people on the lawn of the home, "yelling, talking back" to each other, including one African-American woman who he said didn't appear to be injured.
    The cab driver's estimate of 1:07 for this event is more noise than signal.

    supamike:
    I mean lets be honest here and use common sense ...
    Your post contains more simple common sense than hundreds of others full of wild speculations on this topic. Thank you!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#36)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 02:32:08 PM EST
    Cymo, We must have a different meaning of common sense. SupaMike is just as guilty, if not more so, as anyone else here on making wild speculations. Some of these are below:
    I dont think there were any drugs there taken by the boys, but I am sure the dancer was on drugs, or taking something that made her have that reaction.
    If you listen to the 911 call made by the 2nd dancer, you can tell that its a fake cry.
    These ladies are both liars, and the boys are innocent,
    I will tell you now, I dont think that race plays much of an issue here.
    these dancers tried to get over on those boys by coming there and dancing for a few minutes and getting away with the money
    I won't go on anymore. Most of here have been fairly honest when we say that none of us know what really happened on that night, we are all just speculating. I think most of us also can see how a scenario for rape happened on that night and also how a scenario for a false accusation of rape happened on that night. This is where speculation begins and our bias come through. But, we don't make speculations and state them as fact. The few ones who have are Supamike and Jesurg.

    More on the cabbie's second trip to the house:
    After dropping off Seligmann, he said, he returned to the house to pick up another fare. When he arrived, it looked like a party was breaking up, with people crowded on both sides of the street.
    While waiting on the four passengers whom he would later drive to a nearby gas station, the Sudan-born driver saw a woman walking through a crowd of men toward a car, and heard someone say, "She just a stripper. She's going to call the police."
    Mostafa said the woman, wearing jeans and a sweater, appeared to exchange words with some people in the crowd before getting into the driver's side of a car.
    "She looked, like, mad," he said. "In her face, the way she walked, the way she talked, she looked like mad
    Jeans and a sweater? This is the first I've heard of this. the picture with the article shows her in a negligee. When did she put these clothes on?

    Cymro, Are you serious? I have not seen one other post that has contained as much wild speculations on this topic as supamikes':
    I dont think there were any drugs there taken by the boys, but I am sure the dancer was on drugs, or taking something that made her have that reaction.
    If you listen to the 911 call made by the 2nd dancer, you can tell that its a fake cry. These ladies are both liars, and the boys are innocent, but did disrespect those women.
    She went further in the dirt, when she was found passed out in the Kroger parking lot, and in order to stay out of jail, she screamed rape
    .
    These women know that they can get over on their "johns" so they have probably taken many men like this.
    This is why they waited for the boys to say something stupid so they could have an excuse to jet out of there and make there money.
    No doubt both of these women are tramps/trifling/conniving/hookers..but these boys are no angels either.


    Hey Peaches, Looks like we are on the same page concerning supamike's most recent post.

    Sorry, the picture is here.

    Maybe the sweater and jeans individual is the other stripper...

    suo posted:
    Jeans and a sweater? This is the first I've heard of this. the picture with the article shows her in a negligee. When did she put these clothes on?
    The photo is of the accuser. The cab driver is referring to other dancer.

    Chase, yes you are right...
    Mostafa said the woman, wearing jeans and a sweater, appeared to exchange words with some people in the crowd before getting into the driver's side of a car.


    If I were in the players situation, and trying to negotiate a refund, I would approach the person who wasn't on the verge of passing out. Given that the accuser was "out cold" shortly after this, I'm sure she wasn't the most coherent option. If the negotations were tense, as I'm sure they were (given the content and the racial comments alleged by both sides) then I'm sure to an outsider looking on, it would appear bad.

    SupaMike thinks:
    If you listen to the 911 call made by the 2nd dancer, you can tell that its a fake cry.
    I had that interpretation at first. But upon close inspection another interpretation arose. The whimpering you hear at the end of the dancers sentences may actually be the voice of the other dancer in the car next to her. It may be that some sort of audio gain circuit somewhere in the 911 audio recorder boosts the silent areas between sentences in such a way that these whimpers can only heard in the pauses. The reason I say this is that there are a couple of times when you can hear the whimpering concurrently with the second dancer's statement. Try it and see how you feel about it. Just a possibility. Things aren't always as they seem.

    I wrote this earlier:
    If so, as stripping is not illegal afaik, it may not be too much of a stretch to think she would threaten to call the cops if (she felt) her stripping money was stolen.
    More likely she would want to call the police as well if she was involved in a physical scuffle over the money.
    But on second thaought, as the 911 call was from the 2nd dancer, not the accuser, and she specifically reported racial slurs, I see no reason to think her call was for any other reason.

    The headline on Drudge this morning said:
    Accuser ID'd Lacrosse Players By Scratches On Their Bodies...
    If you link to the article the following mysteriously vague editor's note appears:
    Editor's Note: A previous version of this article mistakenly cited defense attorney Bill Cotter as the source of information concerning how a woman may have identified the two men in this story. Cotter, however, was not the source of the information obtained by WRAL.
    Nothing in the article refers to the scratches or to the claim that they may have played any role whatsoever in the identification process. Another fire has been put out. I wonder who the source was of the original story, and where one can view it?

    PB, I agree with you. The caller's voice cracks a few times, but I think it is the passenger we hear sobbing. You hear a similar sob in the security guard's phone call. Here's the first 911 call.

    Here's the second 911 call. (I'm only allowed one link per post)

    PB, I agree with you. The caller's voice cracks a few times, but I think it is the passenger we hear sobbing. You hear a similar sob in the security guard's phone call. Here's the first 911 call. Here's the second 911 call.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#51)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 04:05:57 PM EST
    Regarding the arrival times, last night on Rita Cosby (I think) one of the attorneys for the captains was on and he said that the first dancer (Kim) arrived at 11:00 and the accuser arrived at 11:35. What I can't figure out is what they did for that time if the dancing only lasted 3 or 4 minutes (the pictures show them dancing at 12). The whole anger part that everyone admits to is supposedly due to the dancers only performing for 3 or 4 minutes so what was going on prior to this? The expert that Dan Abrams talked to verified the numerical sequence of the photos provided by the defense but can't verify the times shown. That surprised me (not that I'm suggesting they messed with the times). I thought that would be easy to verify.

    I am sure there has to be some speculation to have some sort of opinion about this case. Sure all the facts are not out yet. But if you have any empathetic skills to know how people react to certain situation, and have seen any real life experiences, you would know that there is no rape here by these boys. I am not sticking up for those boys, and definitely am not sticking up for the accuser. But I seek the truth, and its just too easy to reread the account from the accuser, and try and fit it into some 3 timelines that we have come up with, and her timeline does not fit anyone elses... Now even if we wanted to say the boys timeline does not fit becuz they are the suspects right? But her timeline does not fit Bissey's or even the 2nd dancers timeline. And now it does not fit the cabbie's time line either. And then that is where people here are coming up with the "whacky speculations"....like being raped for 3 minutes can feel like 30 minutes. Or maybe if we adjust the times on the camera, that maybe a rape could have occured....I mean some of this stuff is just not there and I cant see how some are coming up with them. My speculation just comes with commmon sense, and how people react to certain situations... Before you even respond here, you should reread the accusers account again...The things she is saying done to her, is unbelievable. I am not saying they dont happen to rape victims...But when I had to put that into a timeline for all of that to take place, these boys had to be speedy gonzalez. I mean its just simple here...we dont have to make it complex.

    By the way, you have about 50 minutes to fit in a 25-30 minute rape... Can someone please show me base on all timelines when this could of happened? Keep in mind the 27 minute opening where there were no photos is not complete until you fit in the accusers acccount of first leaving the house, and re-entering it with the 2nd dancer and getting separated and then a 25-30 minute rape... Can someone help me on that please.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#54)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 04:44:29 PM EST
    supamike, the only way it would make sense with the leaving and coming back in with the second dancer would be if that happened in the first 25 minutes the women were there (there aren't any pictures of that timeframe). But that doesn't fit Bissey's timeline does it?

    Peaches (and imho):
    I think most of us also can see how a scenario for rape happened on that night and also how a scenario for a false accusation of rape happened on that night. This is where speculation begins and our bias come through.
    I don't disagree with that. But in my opinion, based on everything I have read, supamike's speculation appears to be based on common sense, as he claims. Call it bias if you like, but I find the arguments and evidence (as much as we know of it) supporting the possibility of a false accusation to be much stronger and more convincing than those supporting the possibility of an actual rape having occurred. I guess we just disagree on what constitutes common sense. So I will stick by my evaluation of supamike's post. I also disagree with your comparison of supamike's and jesurg's posts, which I recall as strident and lacking in reason or common sense. There you go, that's my opinion/bias.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#56)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 05:05:59 PM EST
    I still want to know why the photos AND the cameras were not turned over to the police. This is "take our word for it, it hasn't been tampered with" evidence, and "believe our interpretation for what these photos mean."

    Hi SupaMike, You wrote:
    By the way, you have about 50 minutes to fit in a 25-30 minute rape...
    I don't think this case will rise or fall on whether the victim estimated the duration of the assault properly. I think jurors will forgive her more than the five minutes you offer here. I don't know how much more. We don't know too many specifics of the woman's account. We have only a hearsay version from the search warrant, and a few hints from Nofing. We don't know whether the claim is that all three players were there for the duration, or whether she claims a specific sequence of events. She will have a lot of explaining to do to simply make her case believable, in the face of the professional defense being presented against her, and proving her allegations beyond a reasonable doubt will require something more than that. It will require making the defense's arguments unbelievable. I would think Nofing is aware of all that. Where was Collin Finerty, by the way, and who was he with at the time of the alleged rape. Inquiring minds want to know?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#58)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:00:57 PM EST
    Lora. What would be the point of turning the stuff over early? Are you of the opinion Nifong would have dropped the case right then and saved the taxpayers some money? IMO, the reason was to prevent Nifong from concocting another line of accusation, once he knew his original one was toast. Give him enough rope so he can't backtrack and gin up an alternative designed to avoid exculpatory evidence.

    Teresa said:
    supamike, the only way it would make sense with the leaving and coming back in with the second dancer would be if that happened in the first 25 minutes the women were there (there aren't any pictures of that timeframe). But that doesn't fit Bissey's timeline does it?
    That is exactly right Teresa, and Bissey has no reason here to lie. He has said that he saw both women go back to the car at 12:20 to 12:30, which means during those times the accuser was outside. And at some point the the boys had to convince the BOTH girls to go back inside the house. From my understanding, the 2nd dancer never re-entered the house, based on Bissey's account. Becuz he saw the girl go back in the house to look for her shoe. That is around 12:30. Most everyone agrees that the rape could not have occured after th4e 12:30 time. So I dont see any opening. But Bissey's account saying that he saw the girls come out at 12:20 to 12:30 fits the players account, becuz they said that the girls locked themselves in the bathroom for sometime then left. I cant find anything at all that matches up with the accusers account. Can you?

    Hi SupaMike, You wrote:
    Can someone please show me base on all timelines when this could of happened?
    Here's a purposefull prejudicial timeline for your perusal. I'm not pushing it as true in the least. Obviously without hearing from the second dancer, I can't come up with anything serious here. If the dancer arrived closer to 11:30 than twelve, as she claims, Bisseys time line gets forced back a bit from what the News and Observer proposed. Let's go with 11:45. Next have the dancers exit the house closer to 12:05 than to 12:20, hot on the heels of the brrom joke, as the search warrant suggests. Coaxed back by one of the assailants, the dancer(s?) re-enter the house. (Defense attorneys have admitted that dancer #1 reentered the house for her purse sometime before 12:30. They just don't say when.) Just where dancer #2 is for the next period is unstated. But dancer #1 is brutalized in the bathroom from 12:10 - 12:30. By 12:31 dancer #1 is stumbling her way out toward the car. She falls on the porch and briefly lies unconscious, before being ushered to the car by one of the team captains. Dancer #2 has a nasty exchange with the captain and threatens to call the police. Knowing she is serious, everybody leaves the vicinity, hollering various inappropriate remarks as they go. Note that Bissey had a twenty minute shower after the women entered the house in the first place (11:45?), and claimed a twenty to thirty minute gap between the time the dancer(s) re-entered the house (12:05-12:10)and the time of the next commotion in the alley (about 12:40 or so from Bissey's perspective). Not too bad for timing, no?

    PB said:
    I don't think this case will rise or fall on whether the victim estimated the duration of the assault properly. I think jurors will forgive her more than the five minutes you offer here. I don't know how much more.
    I have to agree with you there. She could of thought that 15 minutes could of been 30 minutes. BUt even if I give her 15 minutes, which is half of what she said, I still cant fit it in. I mean the things that she said happen to her, and not just one guy, but 3 men, in a bathroom with fighting, scratching, and beating, etc....NO DNA, not even a hair, nothing anywhere. Something has to be on her from somewhere. I mean where is the evidence of this rape in that house. I mean show me something... PB said,
    We don't know too many specifics of the woman's account. We have only a hearsay version from the search warrant, and a few hints from Nofing. We don't know whether the claim is that all three players were there for the duration, or whether she claims a specific sequence of events.
    Well that account on that warrant will be used during a trial. If her story starts to change it will go to her credibility for sure. I mean I can give her the 15 minutes of her time, but I dont know how much more any right-minded person can give, until I feel like I am talking to my 5 yr old son when he knows he is done something bad, and is not telling the truth. Ya know? PB said,
    She will have a lot of explaining to do to simply make her case believable, in the face of the professional defense being presented against her, and proving her allegations beyond a reasonable doubt will require something more than that. It will require making the defense's arguments unbelievable.
    Yes she has alot to prove on this for me as well. But the truth is that she can drop the case, and the DA can come out and claim that things got to hard on the accuser, and we can never know. But meanwhile we have already ruined these guys reputations. This is the problem I have, is that this accuser can hide behind her lies if she has in fact lied. But this case may be different because what I see happening is that these families will go after the state and the accuser when/if there sons are exonerated. PB said:
    I would think Nofing is aware of all that.
    Well think about it, money in, to money out. The bonds for these boys was very high. Actually Nifong covers alot of his butt here. If he has a civil suit that comes at him, then he will have some of that money already. But I am sure there are other loses here like tuition, and the pain and suffering of these boys and lose of their reputations. Nifong may know some of what he is gettng into, but I am not sure that he has calculated right. I think he is far off on this one, if the tide turns against him. PB said:
    Where was Collin Finerty, by the way, and who was he with at the time of the alleged rape. Inquiring minds want to know?
    hmmmm, we have not heard much about his whereabouts. But to me, it really does not matter. Being able to put one of these accused away from the rape, is going to put a major stab in the prosecutions case. I think we will here that Collin was probably there during the whole time, but it still does not mean he raped her. Here is the bigger question: Where are the 3 guys who she says she raped and identified with 100% certainty? I mean the 2 guys we have now, the DA has said that they were ID'd with 100% certainty... and now this? Also have we noticed that the 2nd dancer has already lied? Now how much has her credibility gone out the window?

    Hi SuperMike, You wrote:
    Well that account on that warrant will be used during a trial.
    When I say that the account on the warrant is hearsay, what I mean is that t can't be used at trial. Hearsay is inadmissible at trial. You wrote:
    Actually Nifong covers alot of his butt here. If he has a civil suit that comes at him, then he will have some of that money already.
    I have a distinctly different idea about how the economics of the justice system operate. Nofing isn't at risk personally if a civil suit (for, say, malicious prosecution) ever arose from this case, the taxpayers are. Guilty or innocent, the money the boys post for bond they get back as long as they show up for court. Nobody gets to use that to pay damages. You wrote:
    NO DNA, not even a hair, nothing anywhere. Something has to be on her from somewhere.
    Her father spoke of "an object" being involvd in the assault. That could account for vaginal tears, and could account for no dna. I'm just saying.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#63)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:18:03 PM EST
    PB, I think you should send it to the DA. It works for me. The more I think about it I think the broomstick joke and leaving and coming back in could have happened before midnight. That would explain why the guys and their attorneys say they only danced 3 to 4 minutes.

    For the commenters who have opined that guys with so much to lose would never do something so stupid: Race and sex cast long shadow over Duke St. John's University - 1991
    ... six white students - five of them members of the school's lacrosse team - were accused of sexually assaulting a black female student in an off-campus house.
    ...one of the defendants copped a plea and testified against the first three defendants to be tried. Even so, all three were acquitted. Some of the jurors doubted the woman's rape charge because she didn't report it to police right away. Others questioned how much of what happened she could really remember because she admitted accepting an alcohol-laced drink from one of the men. She said the drink made her lapse in and out of consciousness.
    Ironically, several months later, the white student who had coaxed the black woman into the house and plied her with liquor admitted in a plea bargain agreement he struck with prosecutors that her story of sexual abuse was true.
    Keeping the word count of quoted text under the length of quoted text that are still still standing.....

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#65)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:28:32 PM EST
    Ok, I checked Bissey's timeline. He saw 2 women being greeted by the guys at 11:50. If Kim arrived at 11 and the accuser at 11:30 (this is per the player's attorney) then why were they walking to the back of the house together at 11:50. They did not arrive at the same time and they weren't together. Someone dropped the accuser off. I think they were returning after being coaxed to come back in. Why isn't the time before midnight being discussed by anyone?

    I'm arriving here in the midst of your discussion, and haven't read all the comments, but here's what I understand from the search warrants and defense lawyers. Dancer #2, not the accuser, arrived first in her own car. She had never met the accuser before. From Newsweek:
    The accuser is dropped off at about 11:45, about a half hour after the other (second) stripper arrived. By midnight, according to a photo, the two are almost naked on the beige carpet in front of their visibly happy audience. But by 12:03, the mood has turned:
    The photographs.
    There is a gap in the photos from 12:03 a.m. until 12:30 a.m. in which the two dancers were not photographed on the camera.....at 12:30 a.m., the accuser is photographed again at the back of the house. She has a purse and her shoe is still missing from her right foot.
    Reportedly, the two dancers drove off around 12:41 am. Dancer 2 made the first 911 call at 12:53. The police arrived to a deserted house at 12:55. They stayed till 1:06. Seligman called for the taxi, a block and a half from the party at 12:14. The taxi took him to an ATM, a fast food place and then dropped him off at his dorm around 12:46. The cabbie says he got a call to go back to the party house at 1:07 am, and made a return trip to the house.
    He said he saw about 20 people on the lawn of the home, "yelling, talking back" to each other, including one African-American woman who he said didn't appear to be injured. Four men got into the taxi, Mostafa said, and they appeared to be drunk. One of them said, "She's just a stripper," Mostafa quoted.
    But, by 1:00 am, everyone should have been gone, according to the police timeline.

    Reportedly, the two dancers drove off around 12:41 am
    I know that is the time stamp of the photo of the dancer with her leg out of the car, but I never read where they actually drove off that early. Bissey sees them driving off a few minutes before the guys disperse and the police show up at 1:55.

    The police show up at the house at 12:55, not 1:55. The Kroger's call came in at 1:22 and the police were at Krogers by 1:30. When the police arrived at the party house at 12:55, everyone was gone.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: New Search Warrants, Cabdriver (none / 0) (#32)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:23:38 PM EST
    A lot of arguments have been based on the accusers 2002 arrest as showing she was a dishonest stripper hustler. There's a pretty detailed account in the News and Observer
    "One summer night in 2002, excessive drinking led to charges that the woman stole a car and led officers on a reckless car chase. The episode started at the Diamond Girls club on Angier Avenue in Durham. According to Larry W. Jones, the owner of Diamond Girls, the woman appeared at the club that night and "tried out," giving lap dances to a few men. Jones said the manager at the time did not offer the woman a job because she was "acting funny." She started dancing for a taxi driver, whom she asked for a ride, according to a report from the Durham County Sheriff's Office. While dancing, she took the keys from the driver's pocket without his knowledge and, minutes later, drove off in his taxi."
    There's much more, but I don't want to exceed the space limit.

    oops. I meant 12:55. If Bissey saw the car drive off a few minutes before the police got there, what was going on between the photo of the dancer's leg hanging out of the car at 12:41 and the women driving off?

    IMHO, I figured it was a typo. You are too on top of news reports not to have realized that.

    TL wrote:
    "Reportedly, the two dancers drove off around 12:41 am."
    to which Imho responded:
    I know that is the time stamp of the photo of the dancer with her leg out of the car, but I never read where they actually drove off that early.
    Comment: We need look no further than TL's ststement at the top of this thread for confirmation that "Reportedly, the two dancers drove off around 12:41 am."
    When the police arrived at the house at 12:55 am, two minutes after the second dancer's first 911 call, the house appeared deserted. The women were already gone. They left at 12:41.
    I cannot confirm whether TL is the first reporter to break the story that the car actually left at 12:41, but I do think that is possible. We don't know her sources.

    None of the "she was not raped" advocates have explained why the police found KY Jelly in the bathroom where the woman claimed she was sodomized. Hmm . . . what would nice heterosexual boys be doing with KY Jelly? THAT I would like to see explained. And I also want to see the explanations for the cell phone and boken off fake finger nails left in the same bathroom . . . and the cops taking the bathroom rug and the bathmat, too!

    B-Rob, strippers sometimes supply their own lubricants, especially when using toys as part of their act. The nails may have been removed intentionally to help put suspicion on the players, or perhaps there was an altercation if there was a monetary/services dispute. The police would remove anything they have reason to believe may have evidentiary potential. That potential may come from witness statements or just the jaundiced, experienced eye of investigators. Please know that unlike some others, I have no opinion on a case in which I have no involvement, but there are logical explinations to your cogent questions. I do feel that if someone falsely accuses, and that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, that their penalty should be twice what the accused would have received if guilty. If the men raped her, they deserved whatever punishment they receive, but if she is lying, than she should not pass unscathed. The false accusation of rape is almost as insurmountable socially as a true accusation.

    Posted by lorelynn April 20, 2006 01:36 PM It seems to me his actions were all about creating "reasonable doubt" as to where he was at any given time. Everything he did results in him having a documented, public presence.
    What good is an alibi set up for AFTER a crime?

    JRT posted:
    What good is an alibi set up for AFTER a crime?
    If that is what he did, it's working out for him. The time the attack took place is going to be in question if this goes to trial. Like lorelynn said - he could be creating "reasonable doubt" as to where he was at any given time. If that is what he did, he did a damn good job of it.

    I would be interested to see if he regularly took cabs to ATMs and drive-throughs.