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Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to Attack

The Sunday Times (UK) reports if the U.S. or Britain attack Iran's nuclear sites, they have an army of 40,000 suicide bombers ready to take revenge:

IRAN has formed battalions of suicide bombers to strike at British and American targets if the nation's nuclear sites are attacked. According to Iranian officials, 40,000 trained suicide bombers are ready for action.

The group is called "Special Unit of Martyr Seekers in the Revolutionary Guards."

Dr Hassan Abbasi, head of the Centre for Doctrinal Strategic Studies in the Revolutionary Guards, said in a speech that 29 western targets had been identified: "We are ready to attack American and British sensitive points if they attack Iran's nuclear facilities." He added that some of them were "quite close" to the Iranian border in Iraq.

Britain seems to be their major concern. But Tony Blair has told George Bush he won't participate in a strike on Iran.

[hat tip Patriot Daily.]

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    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#1)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:16:36 AM EST
    billmon reports on a conversation with Col. Sam Gardiner, the war gaming expert at the National Defense University:
    GARDINER: Actually, Jim, I would say - and this may shock some - I think the decision has been made and military operations are under way . . . The Iranians have been saying American military troops are in there, have been saying it for almost a year. I was in Berlin two weeks ago, sat next to the ambassador, the Iranian ambassador to the IAEA. And I said, "Hey, I hear you're accusing Americans of being in there operating with some of the units that have shot up revolution guard units." He said, quite frankly, "Yes, we know they are. We've captured some of the units, and they've confessed to working with the Americans." The evidence is mounting that that decision has already been made.
    Sounds very bad to me. Read billmpn's whole post if you want feel totally helpless on this one.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:18:49 AM EST
    Alan Dershowitz weighs in on the subject of pre-emptive strikes today in an article in The Miami Herald, and asks:
    Will a preemptive strike too soon by Israel or the United States -- which is carefully studying such an option, according to recent reports -- simply consolidate the Iranian extremists' hold on power and lead to a new war?
    And while admitting that has few answers, "he insists a real debate on how and when to use preemptive force must begin".
    "Preemption means simply, we get the bad guys before they get us, and that sometimes could be a good thing," Dershowitz said in a recent TV interview. "But there are tremendous risks involved, because we can get the wrong people, we can get them too early, we can provoke an attack. So it's a knife that cuts both ways."
    I agree. It certainly doesn't mean being stupid With 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to Attack it does cut both ways, and unthinking military and physical force sometimes can create the very problems the use of it seeks to overcome.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:34:59 AM EST
    Military action against Iran could provoke an array of potential responses, experts said. The United States would have to prepare for an aggressive campaign of suicide bombings or other terrorist reprisals from such groups as the Iranian-linked Hezbollah. Oil prices might spike, either because of an Iranian cutoff of exports to world oil markets or harassment of shipping in the Persian Gulf. Iran could launch missiles - potentially armed with chemical weapons - against Israel, Arab allies of the U.S. in the Persian Gulf region or U.S. troops based in Iraq. Violence in Iraq probably would increase, particularly in the Shiite-dominated southern regions that so far have been relatively calm. A strike against Iran would antagonize Shiite militias, which have close ties to Iran, and cleric Moqtada Sadr, who leads one such militia and has twice mounted uprisings against U.S. troops. Sadr already has threatened a revolt if Iran is attacked. A broad network of Iranian intelligence agents now in Iraq also could instigate or assist with attacks against U.S. troops. U.S reprisals against Iraqi counterattacks, analysts suggest, could lead to a cycle of response and counter-response. "You have to be ready for an open-ended war with the Iranians. This is a very big deal. It's not a simple matter of an easy strike," said Kenneth Pollack, a former CIA analyst and National Security Council official who was an influential advocate of the Iraq invasion. Mike Dorning, Chicago Tribune Friday April 14/06


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:46:43 AM EST
    It should be rather interesting in a grotesque morbid way to see how they will attempt to spin a defensive act into a terrorist act. If Iran is attacked and responds the way they say they will, it doesn't take a genius to figure out who will have caused the suicide attacks.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:46:47 AM EST
    Imagine if we had a leader with a real heart, soul and intellect, who actually realized that he could easily out-rhetoric the Iranian president (how hard is it to be more creative and imaginative and appealing than an extremist nutcase?) and in doing so speak past him to the Iranian people. If we can't evidence to the Iranian populace a more creative and imaginative and peaceful route to winning these "battles", then what good is all this freedom we were supposedly gifted with. And tha Alaz Dershowitz doesn't have enough imagination to realize this is even more suprising. What happened to Dersh. He used to be a brave, smart guy. Now he's dumb and afraid. Too bad, Alan.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:47:28 AM EST
    edger-The one line left out in your quote from Mike Dorning is this: 'Despite the chaos and destruction a US nuclear attack would unleash on the world, President Bush and his rubberstamp Republican Congress would undoubtedly enjoy a significant increase in the power they hold over America. ' Martial law anyone?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:50:31 AM EST
    Daedler-
    how hard is it to be more creative and imaginative and appealing than an extremist nutcase?
    Evidentially it is quite hard. Bush won two terms, remember.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#8)
    by DonS on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:58:50 AM EST
    An attack by Israel is tantamount to one by the U.S., at least that is how Iran would see it. The question of how much influence the U.S. is willing to attempt to exert over Israeli action -- as always -- is subject to the sordid Alphonse-Gaston routine that the State Department, etc. spins. Now if the U.S. were serious about deterring Israel from striking, this would be a good moment to go public, and to perhaps influence the diplomatic climate in a more positive way and -- gasp -- even attempt to play a construcitve role in the mideast. Highly unlikely of course, in light of the U.S. rebuffs of Iranian overtures to talk and attempts, rather, to isolate and demonize Iran further, dating to the Clinton administration to the present, from my reading. And considering Bush's approach to the mideast, and his temperment, we're more likely at a "bring 'em on" moment.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:00:29 PM EST

    To George Bush, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei, I offer a quote from someone who still enjoys my respect:

    George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world. We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today... --Hunter S. Thomson

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:05:13 PM EST
    While a cowardly and comatose Congress continues to ignore what could be Bush's biggest folly, a panicked junta has already moved Burma's capital to remote Pyinmana, 200 miles to the north, after their Chinese allies warned of radioactive fallout from attacks on Iran's nuclear power reactors and production facilities dropping in deluges of radioactive rain over Rangoon. According to Wayne Madsen's intelligence review, "Thousands of government workers were given only two days' notice to pack up and leave Rangoon for the higher (and dryer) mountainous Pyinmana."

    Weather maps also predict a "hot" monsoon poisoning populations in Dhaka, Calcutta, Mumbai, Chennai, and Colombo.

    The prospect of this radioactive cloud crossing the Pacific to "bring the war home" to the United States does not faze White House fundamentalists personally protected by their own religious projections. More...



    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:07:20 PM EST
    DonS-
    An attack by Israel is tantamount to one by the U.S., at least that is how Iran would see it.
    Only Iran? The only people in the whole world who would not see it that way would be American wingnuts.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:14:11 PM EST
    Squeaky, that's true, I agree. I think what Don is reminding us of is that the Iranian response will be the same regardless of whether they are attacked by Israel, or by America.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#13)
    by DonS on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:15:34 PM EST
    The only people in the whole world who would not see it that way would be American wingnuts.
    Yes, of course. I was thinking horifically of the unleashing of terrorist attacks in the article.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:16:39 PM EST
    The wingnuts will all get priaptic and drooling over bush doing this, however.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:40:29 PM EST
    Apparently not so priapic (good Easter word) and drooling that the G.O.P will be able to dispence with its strategy of making gay burning, flag marriage, and abortion the pressing issues of the day.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:42:36 PM EST
    edger-yes, they will get priapic with no blood on their hands. A free ride. How sexy. On the other hand embracing peripatetism would be a far wiser choice. As an old Chineese proverb states....He who stands in one position too long will be covered with birdsh*t. Evidentially some people love the stuff. A real turn on.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:49:11 PM EST
    Squeaky, Being more imaginative and appealing than the president of Iran oughtta be a snap. But it's only hard because our leaders, Dem or Repub at this point, haven't got the creative chops. Or, I should say, some might, but they haven't found the courage to use them. Do I think it'll change? Probably not. Does that mean it still can't be done? Hell f*cking no. I need a chocolate egg.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:50:32 PM EST
    Sort of like the ultimate snuff movie...

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 01:25:50 PM EST
    Squeaky - I think being covered with bird sh*t is covered in the Left Behind series. Its another sign.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 01:37:03 PM EST
    The Iranian Gas Centrifuge Uranium Enrichment Plant at Natanz:
    Iran is building a high security uranium enrichment facility using gas centrifuges near Natanz. This site is about 40 kilometers southeast of Kashan and about 150 kilometers north of Isfahan. The IAEA has characterized the centrifuges at this site as sophisticated and the culmination of a large, expensive effort. ... Because of the nature of this site, a large military strike would be necessary to destroy these undergound buildings. Other information about Iran's centrifuge program suggests that even if the Natanz site was destroyed militarily, Iran's decentralized gas centrifuge program could not be bombed out of existence, meaning that Iran could relative rapidly build a small gas centrifuge facility that would be extremely difficult to detect. ... advanced countries, such as Japan, have encountered difficulties in building reliable centrifuges on such a large scale, meaning that Iran may fail in its bid to build such a large centrifuge plant. ... Recent media reports have stated that Natanz is intended to house only 5,000 centrifuges. This number may reflect an interim goal for this site, perhaps the capacity Iran wants to achieve in the next few years. -----
    Iran Can Now Make glowing Mickey Mouse Watches:
    Despite all the sloppy and inaccurate headlines about Iran "going nuclear," the fact is that all President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Tuesday was that it had enriched uranium to a measely 3.5 percent, using a bank of 180 centrifuges hooked up so that they "cascade." The ability to slightly enrich uranium is not the same as the ability to build a bomb. For the latter, you need at least 80% enrichment, which in turn would require about 16,000 small centrifuges hooked up to cascade. Iran does not have 16,000 centrifuges. It seems to have 180. Iran is a good ten years away from having a bomb...


    How To Make A Tactical Nuclear Weapon by tristero The military scientists, engineers and war geeks have it all wrong. It really doesn't take much effort to make a tactical nuclear device. In fact, it's actually a rather straightforward two-step process: 1. Take one nuclear weapon with the destructive power of as many Hiroshima bombs as you like. 2. Add the word "tactical" to the description. Voila! You now have a tactical nuclear weapon that magically always hits its target and only kills evil people, leaving all the good people alive and perfectly healthy.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 01:53:34 PM EST
    But what if we wait too long? The Iranians are terrorists like Al Qeada. I bet the Taliban is just waiting to take over Iran, too. I bet Iraq and Iran actually agreed in secret to switch names to confuse us. I'm so scared I can't even think. Thank God we have leaders who know what to do. Ahem.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 01:56:25 PM EST
    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 01:57:04 PM EST
    I'd like to hear a theoretical scenario from the wingers in which Iran could "get away" with a direct strike against someone, or, with supplying someone with the means for a direct strike. It would be so reckless and high-risk that it would be completely against thier "self interest." And spare us the 9/11 analogies. For once.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 02:05:47 PM EST
    Iran has no self-interest, don't you know that? They all want the virgins in heaven. Even the women do. Don't you remember the Ayatollah? I need a valium. Where's my puppy?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#26)
    by John Mann on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 02:08:17 PM EST
    Before Israel, the U.S. had no enemies in the Middle East. Now it has no friends.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 02:15:59 PM EST
    Youre a card Dadler. When you made that gag order association the other day, I was going to tell you that you'd been "in Hollywood" too long. lol.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#28)
    by Al on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 02:16:34 PM EST
    About the only good news is that some generals are openly saying Rumsfeld should go. I wonder if the malaise within the military is serious enough that they balk at attacking Iran.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 02:16:49 PM EST
    40,000 of the little bogeymen. There's probably one under your bed right now! They've taken over George's mind (a cakewalk, that was) and they're going to make him nuke Iran just to give them an excuse to kill rednecks. Right? ^^ OO

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 02:21:56 PM EST
    Yeah, Israel and that ingenious, far-sighted (not) coup in the fifties. If that was an example of the visionary abilities of the Fukayamas and Midge Decters, we're in a lot of effing trouble.

    Edger. 40,000 x 72 That's an awful lot. Maybe they will take the sky train to Dakothanger. The place must be overrun with 'em, after all it is so icky.

    'Despite the chaos and destruction a US nuclear attack would unleash on the world, President Bush and his rubberstamp Republican Congress would undoubtedly enjoy a significant increase in the power they hold over America. ' Martial law anyone?
    Most likely. I suppose they'll have to. If we nuke Iran, I'm hitching a ride to DC, and I'm hoping that at least two million other sane Americans follow my lead.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 02:52:56 PM EST
    oscar, they get lied to by their leadership too. I think they probably only get one 72 year old virgin.

    Edger, I've seen some of those old ones, think I'll stick with the jezabels. Methinks all those young men are signing up because of frustration, they're dying to see a woman. (pun intended)

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:04:08 PM EST
    Yeah but Oscar, the older I get the better they look!

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#36)
    by swingvote on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:04:41 PM EST
    Ignoring for the time being the complete moral depravity of this claim of 40,000+ would be "martyrs", where does this leave us in the case of an attack by one of these people? The palestinian's always had the luxury of having these actions taken by "insurgents" or whatever they call themselves. There was never any official link between the palestinian government and those who carried out "martyrdom operations". This would appear to be different. Now, if some Iranian commits a suicide bombing against a U.S. target, it would appear to have been carried out at the behest of the Iranian government, making it a clear act of war, and the U.S. would be within its rights to respond with force. I don't blame the Iranians for being pissed off, but these kinds of announcements don't really help things. They probably make some kind of war with Iran more likely, not less.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:09:04 PM EST
    Anyone hear some kind of buzzing noise in here just now?

    Posted by edger April 16, 2006 01:16 PM
    The wingnuts will all get priaptic and drooling over bush doing this, however.
    Yeah, the sig heil set loves their fuhrer. I'm just surprised that the nitwit in chief hasn't been out there with the "bring it ons" yet. They must realize by now that it's this 33 percent and that's it. The rest of the Country knows he's a psychotic liar by now.

    The boy is just a jeepster for his shrub.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:13:49 PM EST
    Insects pollinate flowers. ;-)

    The older I get, the better I used to be.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:19:11 PM EST
    jp-
    Now, if some Iranian commits a suicide bombing against a U.S. target, it would appear to have been carried out at the behest of the Iranian government, making it a clear act of war, and the U.S. would be within its rights to respond with force.
    Yes, when they are aligned to a country they are called soldiers but you may have missed the point: Iran promised a retaliatory threat. We are threatening a preemptive nuke attack code name 'wild speculation'. Which takes more courage in your book jp: suicide bombing or dropping a nuke from 10,000 feet in the air?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:23:12 PM EST
    Squeaky, his POV is that bush can do anything, including nuking Iran. If Iran responds it is an aggressive action - an obvious clear act of war, of course. From then on bush is jes pertecin' us, ain't he?

    A suicide bomber jumping out of a plane. Excuse that one squeaky, couldn't resist.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:27:14 PM EST
    The older I get, the better I wish I still was...

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#46)
    by chew2 on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:27:32 PM EST
    Geez such fear and cowardice on display. 40,000 suicide bombers? This sounds totally made up. The claimed number is totally unsourced. And they story is in a conservative British paper, whose primary sources seem to be an anti-Iranian "terrorist" group who have an interest to lie and exagerate just like the Iraqi exiles did. If we bomb Iran, of course they will try to strike back at us directly or our interests in the region. Frankly I don't think they can reach the mainland U.S. But even if that is a possibility you have to learn to face it.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:33:00 PM EST
    OW- not to bead a dead suicide bomber but if the guy was going to die anyway jumping from a plane would be more fun. So I think the guy on the street is braver. Nothing to sweeten up the deal. BTW the virgins are automatically cancelled out by being 'saved'. Same thing but the sex with virgins is not talked about openly by those going to heaven..... Puritans. Think about it though.... all the young girls in heaven must be virgins.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:36:05 PM EST
    all the young girls in heaven must be virgins. The boys too. Gonna be a lot of frustrated girls up there.

    What is not being apreciated here is the culture "thing" Ever since Adam rode his dinasour the way of leaders in the middle east was, prior to battle the respective leaders would face off at distance and harangue each other for protracted periods. He that put on the best show invigorated his troops. Think back to the first gulf war, Saddam promising "The mother and father" of all battles etc. It has no basis in reallity, but it is expected historicaly and culturaly. So take the figure of 40,000 as nothing more than gamesmanship. But to expect this admin to know anything of culture is, I am afraid, asking a little much. Particularly when Ahmadinejad is spinning the case far better the Bushco ever could.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#50)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:44:27 PM EST
    chew2, i'm shaking in fear, chewing sedatives like goldfish crackers, and i can't find my puppy. don't tell me anything.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:49:44 PM EST
    They'll never get it, Dadler. I think it's a wiring thing... no?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 04:05:53 PM EST
    chew2-
    Dr Hassan Abbasi, head of the Centre for Doctrinal Strategic Studies in the Revolutionary Guards, said in a speech that 29 western targets had been identified:
    Tape recordings can be faked. Do you think that the guy was a MEK instead of an Iranian bureaucrat? I don't think so. And why would those Iranian exiles who would love to see us attack Iran say that the 40,000 would be unleashed after an attack? If they wanted to spark the war, why not just say that the 40,000 will be set loose preemptively? Yes, I do agree that the MEK terrorists mentioned in the article, who just happen to be on US payroll are not to be trusted even though they are considered 100% credible, by whom? Well the guys that hire them for their propaganda and terror skills.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 04:10:56 PM EST
    edger-
    The boys too. Gonna be a lot of frustrated girls up there.
    I thought that boys were allowed through the pearly gates virgin or not, as there is no way for god to check to see if they are intact. Isn't that part of the whole ID craze?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 04:38:50 PM EST
    as there is no way for god to check to see if they are intact Not sure... wouldn't they have to at least be able to demonstrate social skills, knowledge, ability, and some minimal ability? ;-)

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 04:50:26 PM EST
    Did I get that backwards? Typical guy.

    The ideas being put forward are extremely contrare to my understanding of this utopian place. Eternity is a long time to spend trying to storm the bastion of gals whose knickers are cemented firmly in place. For me the other place, sounds much more my style.

    'Tis somewhat late this side of the pond, I thought about leaving a fae poem of mine on the subject of the afterlife, perhaps another time. I assume it is within the bounds of interest, if not, what harm. I do not write to a disipline, however on this occasion I had to write something themed to the title of the piece. Hope you enjoy, and goodnight. My Favourite Music Urged by winter's wrath, the waves first played it. I was just a boy, way back, when birdsong abounded. Sweet calls, not taken for granted, only the magnitude of that ubiquitous choir. The radio, the television, slumbering in dormant silence. No news, eyes blinkered, head in the sand. No dismal words of this man made utopia, invading the tranquillity of the day. Things Irish, Wilde, Yeats, harmonious sound of black words dripped from pen, forever capturing the flesh toned vellum. The tinkle of blue bells, as excuisite faeries dance through the forest garden. The Girl, the Colleen, eyes first meeting. Never before heard, the wing song of conspiritual angels. Eyes wide and round, bright stars, shining peals of laughter. The murmur of soft rain, ripples spreading in the infinity of her eyes. With each meeting, church bells filling the air, dashing as the sprinter, enduring as Marathons runners, competing to proclaim our love. The delicate first movement, unhurried, building inevitably, the crescendo. The rasp, the flare of the single match. The sigh of two breaths. Northernpoet. 30/08/04.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 05:49:00 PM EST
    Here is a video by the Union of Concerned Scientists that shows how stupid it is to nuke Iran. link

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 05:59:24 PM EST
    Good find, Squeaky... I am concerned though that the stupider it is the more like it is that bush and the wingnuts will want to do it.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#60)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 06:16:14 PM EST
    edger-I saw it earlier somewhere and was reminded of it when I read billmon's latest as he links to it. His piece is really worth a read as he gets into "the madman theory". Here is a taste:
    Physicians for Social Responsibility claims the direct death toll from a strike on the Esfahan could be even higher - three million. And even the low-ball estimate, from the Oxford Research Group, forecasts 10,000 immediate deaths and the outbreak of all-out war in the Middle East. By just about anybody's definition - except maybe Hermann Goering's - this would qualify as mass genocide. Even I don't believe George W. Bush would deliberately and knowingly order the murder of three million people. But I'm absolutely terrified by the thought that a popular novelist (or Dick Cheney) might waltz into the Oval Office and convince the president of the United States that all the scientific experts are wrong and that a tactical nuclear strike on Iran would only make the flowers there grow a little faster.


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 06:27:22 PM EST
    Squeaky writs:
    Which takes more courage in your book jp: suicide bombing or dropping a nuke from 10,000 feet in the air?
    Courage is required for acts that you feel are dangerous. Given that the suicide bomber/terrorist believes totally that upon his death he will ascend immediately into paradise I would say the suicide bomber has no requirement for courage. On the other hand, flying a modern jet bomber into combat requires a great deal of skill, and courage.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:08:07 PM EST
    Squeaky, a popular novelist (or Dick Cheney) might waltz into the Oval Office and convince the president of the United States that all the scientific experts are wrong

    I think that is a more than legitimate and justified concern given Bush's record of actions and decisions where scientific thought and findings is concerned.

    As Congressman Henry Waxman reported nearly three years ago:

    George W. Bush, as the American Humanist Association has frequently pointed out, regularly ignores or willfully obstructs science that contradicts his evangelical beliefs or hinders his powerful friends in industry.

    He has taken numerous actions to distort or suppress legitimate findings in spite of the costs they inflict on solid scientific research. "The current administration's reliance on what can only be called Bush Science is leading our country in the wrong direction on a number of critical issues...

    And as Lee Salisbury at Axis of Logic writes in his April 12/06 article "George Bush's Faith Based Thinking Has Proven Delusional and Divisive", Bill Moyers has also commented with this observation:

    "One of the biggest changes in my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come in from the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the Oval Office and in Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology hold a monopoly of the power in Washington."

    Salisbury goes on in the same article to say of Bush:

    "Incompetence" seems to be the word of choice when describing him. How can "incompetence" be ascribed to a President and administration which bases its decisions on "faith?" Hey, maybe that is the problem. Does faith-based thinking produce pragmatic results? Even more foundational, is "faith" a virtue? Or is "faith" a cop-out for the hard work of objectively searching and developing answers to difficult problems?

    Few want to face the "elephant in the room" that Bush's presidential faith has not served our country well. Faith believes whatever one wants to believe. Indeed, it "is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrew 11:1). Faith may be fine in a religious context, but it has proven delusional, divisive, prejudicial, and does not work running a government of, by, and for all the people.



    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:24:15 PM EST
    George W. Bush may not deliberately and knowingly, but may incompetently and uncomprehendly, order the murder of three million people.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#64)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:25:20 PM EST
    uncomprehendingly

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:31:43 PM EST
    Anyone who believes in an after life is automatically disqualified from being honored for acts of bravery.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:45:45 PM EST
    Squeaky, I will admit that billmon's article you linked to scares the sh*t out of me, especially when you get down to this:
    For Bush, or the neocons, or both, regime change in Iran not only may appear doable, it may also look like the only way out of the spectacular mess they have created in Iraq. The logic is understandable, if malevolent. Instead of creating a secular, pro-American client state in the heart of the Middle East, the invasion of Iraq has destroyed the front-line Arab regime opposing Tehran, installed a pro-Iranian government in Baghdad and vastly increased Iranian influence, not only in Iraq, but throughout the Shi'a world. It's also moved the Revolutionary Guard one step closer to the Kuwaiti and Saudi oil fields - the prize upon which the energy security of the West depends. By the traditional standards of U.S. foreign policy, this is a fiasco of almost unbelievable proportions. ... In other words, the administration, and the Pentagon, have gotten themselves into one hell of a jam - militarily, strategically and politically. As desperate and reckless as attempted regime change in Iran might seem to us, to the Cheneyites it may look like the only move left on the board.


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:53:57 PM EST
    I rememeber days in the sixties and seventies when, having bought into all the terrorizing and fearmongering of those time, I would sometimes kind of furtively glance up wondering when the Soviet bombs were going to light up the sky, and hoping that when they did I'd be standing at or very close to ground zero. I never thought that the people who would be crazy enough set off such a cataclysm would be in power in Washington...

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 08:42:05 PM EST
    Please allow me to introduce myself I'm a man of wealth and taste I've been around for a long, long year Stole many a man's soul and faith And I was 'round when jesus christ Had his moment of doubt and pain Made damn sure that pilate Washed his hands and sealed his fate Pleased to meet you Hope you guess my name But what's puzzling you Is the nature of my game

    Posted by edger April 16, 2006 08:53 PM
    I rememeber days in the sixties and seventies when, having bought into all the terrorizing and fearmongering of those time, I would sometimes kind of furtively glance up wondering when the Soviet bombs were going to light up the sky, and hoping that when they did I'd be standing at or very close to ground zero. I never thought that the people who would be crazy enough set off such a cataclysm would be in power in Washington
    Yeah, I turn 53 next month, so I started Kindergarten in '58. We had those stupid duck and cover drills the first couple of year of school. Yeah, like a 1910 vintage desk is gonna save you in the event of thermonuclear attack. Or as Lewis Black says, it was always so reassuring to know that I could go out to the playground and MELT!! I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis really well. I was 9 then and you could tell how scared everyone was. It was too big and abstract for me. I just figured Kennedy would get Krushchev to back down and chicken out like some gunfighter in one of those wall to wall bad westerns that were all over the tube at the time. Besides, I'd gotten in the worst of a series of bad bicycle accidents right around that time and I'd just got outta the hospital after a week, so, I had a lotta time to watch it on the tube. We'd grown out of that stuff, then Reagan comes in and we're back to the duck and cover stuff again. It's nuts. I can't believe these nitwits think he ended the Cold War. He was like an American version of Andropov. Who else got to work with Gorbachev? If anything, he probably extended it a couple of years. He played a part, but so did every other President from Truman on. Now this nitwit wants to out reagan reagan. What an idiot.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#70)
    by chew2 on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:54:32 PM EST
    Sqeaky, Read the article carefully. the specific number 40,000 is totally unsourced. The alleged tape recording speaks of 29 "western targets" whatever that means, probably Europe. The authenticity of that tape recording is also totally unsourced. Do you think anybody on the staff of the London Times could tell any Iranian bureaucrat from any other much less identify his voice. Plus some Iranian's want to scare us so as to deter any U.S. attack. But on NPR this morning an analyst from Iran said some other Iranian radicals would actually welcome an attack, so as to further radicalize the country. The Iranians most certainly have some terror bombing assets, including through Hezbolla. That is something to worry about. But the 40,000 suicide bomber figure is laughable. I can just see 40,000 Iranian hobos hitting the road with their backpacks on. Maybe they can hitch a ride to Mexico and cross the border.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#71)
    by Al on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:49:26 PM EST
    Honestly, you have to explain everything to these people. So, chew2, would you believe 4,000? No? Would you believe 400? No? Do you recall how many people carried out the 9-11 attacks? What, a couple of dozen? Do you know how many people carried out the Madrid bombings? From what I found on the web, 14 people had been charged. So, chew2, how many Iranian suicide bombers would you say are too many? For my part, I would say ... one. Specially because this is being done for the oil. It's too bad those gasoline pumps only tell you how many dollars the gasoline costs. They should have another little dial that tells you how many BLOODY LIVES your gasoline costs. It could show little stick figures, you know, like one little person a gallon or something. And they could be printed on your BLOODY RECEIPT. And you know what, you could earn points, like 100 points for every little stick figure, and when you collect enough points, you could get like a month's supply of Coke, or a pair of BLOODY SUNGLASSES. Or maybe you could collect little action figures, like GI Joe With Legs Reduced To Bloody Stumps, or GI Joe With Half His Face Missing, or GI Joe With Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Blowing His Head Off. Wouldn't that be fun.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 12:02:44 AM EST
    Al, like I said in another thread, people like chew2 will never get it. They can't, I've come to believe. It's a wiring thing - something is not connected in them, I think... BUT we can and should still hold them responsible...

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 12:14:41 AM EST
    Yeah, like a 1910 vintage desk is gonna save you in the event of thermonuclear attack. Or as Lewis Black says, it was always so reassuring to know that I could go out to the playground and MELT!! ... I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis really well Know how you felt, Charlie. I was in Arlington VA from 61 to 66 and they had us kissing our a**es under the desks too in grade 6. I vaguely remember our teacher telling us that the russians were probably attacking the day Kennedy was shot in Dallas so she was sending us home! So there are all these kids walking down the street looking up at the sky and panicking everytime a plane flew by. Remind you of something about 5 years ago? I am so sick of this kind of sh*t, and the psychopaths who do their damndest to, what's the phrase I'm looking for here? encourage/prolong/infect others?

    Jondee:
    Anyone who believes in an after life is automatically disqualified from being honored for acts of bravery.
    You mean people like this guy?: Lauded Conscientious Objector Desmond T. Doss Sr.

    Yeah, the old stay in line, single file or you'll MELT!! song and dance. Goofing off, spitballs, passing notes, paper airplanes and there just might be a nuclear holocaust and it'll be ALL YOUR FAULT!! Current events as crowd control. Hey, it worked in 3rd Grade. Rovesputin figured he'd try it again. Keep throwin' it 'til they prove they can hit it.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 06:19:59 AM EST
    Jondee - No. Anyone who believes that if they are killed during a jihad against innocent people are terrorists. If they believe that by doing so they will be ushered immediately into paradise they are cowards. It takes no courage to do something you believe has such a reward. What you are doing is trying to establish moral equivalence between the terrorists and the West by claiming it takes courage to do what they do. It is the same position that Bill Mahr tried to use shortly after 9/11. For it he lost his network show and is now in a much smaller venue, HBO. The claim didn't work for Mahr, and it doesn't work for you. It only takes 10 seconds for common sense to cut in and produce disgust followed by laughter at such juvenile thinking. Al - Given the number of people in the world that depend on the current top line petro/carbon energy sources, just how many do you think would die if there were no oil? No natural gas? No coal? How long do you think it would take what was left of society to strip all the trees from the earth? Want some pollution, think of millions of camp fires. Want some erosion? Think of no forests. Want some dead fish? Think of millions of tons of mud in the lakes and streams. Want floods that make Katrina look like kids playing mud pies? Think of millions of blocked streams, damns that no longer work. Be careful what you ask for Al. Because you really don't want it. edger, charlie, et al - And while your parents and teachers were doing the best they could for you... sorry if it damaged your precious egos...thousands of men and women were on the alert to show the Soviets that they could not attack without suffering devasting lossess themselves. Did you ever think that some of these people had children themselves who they had left to defend you? Did you ever think that some of these people were killed just in the act of watching and waiting? No, you just want to whine that you were scared. You truly are the "me" gneration.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#77)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 06:22:49 AM EST
    There's that buzzing noise again. Anyone bring a mosquito coil?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 06:43:57 AM EST
    ppj - Show me where I said people who intentionally target innocent people arnt terrorists. And just because the same people in the "liberal media" who found the Raygun bio sacreligious went after Maher, dosnt make what he said incorrect. Now all thats left for you to do is to get together a Swift-Unbelievers-For-Truth group to discredit any decorated Americans who believe in an afterlife "reward." And your neocon code word "moral equivalence" is just a fancy term for God is always on our side. Dont be so sure.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#79)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 06:49:23 AM EST
    ppj has left temporarily to have another refreshing soak in Cold War Marinade. Gen. Jack D. Ripper passed along his secret recipe.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 06:54:10 AM EST
    ppj-sounds like, by your definition, many of the American fighters in Iraq are terrorists. I would call them war criminals but you are entitled to your own definitions. You also call them cowards, well in many cases I would have to agree.

    Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. There's not a point you can't miss. We were pointing out just how STUPID the duck and cover drills were and just how pointless the act of jumping off your bike and hiding behind a bush in the event of a nuclear attack was. Any more maps you want me to draw for you? As for Maher, my fellow half Irish, half Jewish, terminal wise-ass Jersey Boy kindred spirit, I don't entirely agree with him on that particular point, but he had the right to say it. Given all the lies and incompetence of this illegitimate trash administration and their ignorant white trash supporters, it's ridiculous that he's the only person in the Country who's lost his job 'cause of 9/11. One thing my parents and teachers taught me is how to think for myself and how to spell. Clearly, you weren't so fortunate, Jim. They also taught me how to utilize little things like spell check to improve myself where I had short comings. You don't strike me as a very tall fellow.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#82)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:04:49 AM EST
    don't strike me as a very tall fellow. Poor guy. Must be a drag to not be able to look anyone in the eye.

    PPJ doesn't have time to use the Preview button or check his spelling, that's only for Leftists elitists and other forms of human trash :>)

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#84)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:08:35 AM EST
    PPJ - How horrific do you think it would be if everyone who profited current status quo could take home a maximum wage of say 50 k a year and the rest of the freed up capital went into researching "clean", renewable energy sources, public works projects, schools,scientific research, education etc? Would it necessarily turn into a Stalinist, Orwellian nightmare? We all know the Scaifes, Murdochs, Coors etc say it would, but is that necessarily so?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:12:10 AM EST
    That should been "everyone who profited from the current status quo." Hey, Im a slob, but Im a loveable slob.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:14:12 AM EST
    It now appears that the US Planned to Attack Iran Before Iraq War: Monday, April 17, 2006
    William Arkin, a former US Army intelligence officer, defended that an extended war plan against Iran, including the occupation over land, missile attacks and naval operations, was prepared before the Iraq war. According to Arkin, known for his realistic estimations in relation to the Iraq issue, the name of the planned operation was TIRANNT, an acronym for "Theater Iran Near Term". ... "According to military sources close to the planning process, this task was given to the Army General John Abizaid, now commander of CENTCOM, in 2002," wrote Arkin.


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:17:07 AM EST
    Some of us learned a while back that criticizing ANYTHING about the Cold War is, to ppj, the equivalent of criticizing "Revelations down to Genesee" to a fundie.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#88)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:22:40 AM EST
    Edger - They shoulda called it Operation PNAC Circle J*rk. Or, is that too long?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#89)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:24:53 AM EST
    Attack Iran? Pure lunacy. Daniel Wirls Santa Cruz Sentinel, April 17, 2006

    In the wake of the revelations about plans for Iran, the mainstream press has given us by and large the same talking heads saying the same thing that's gotten us into other military messes: No one wants war, but we should not take the military option off the table.

    In fact, a perfectly good case can be made for doing just that. If, as most experts argue, bombing raids would only delay Iran's nuclear program, and would likely redouble their national resolve and efforts, then any such plans are counterproductive at best.

    Just as insane is the assumption that the president can do this however and whenever he wants. Nothing, absolutely nothing, gives the president the authority to launch such an attack. Even a declaration of war or a formal congressional sanction in advance would be madness, but it would be a more or less constitutional psychosis, at least.



    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#90)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:25:47 AM EST
    It's a pretty sticky situation, Jondee. I agree...

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#91)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:27:22 AM EST
    Steve Forbes throws in his 2 cents:
    "When We Have The Confrontation" With Iran, "The Price of Oil Will Come Down"
    He goes on to say :"and it will happen."think progress

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#92)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:35:56 AM EST
    Well, Steve would be well advised to put his popping eyeballs back into his fantasizing head. If that's the justification he wants to use, that killing how many thousands or millions and provoking a firestorm across the middle east, Europe, and America, endless suicide attacks and perpetual war, and poisoning who knows many more people and how much land, is worth cheaper gasoline prices, then we'd better reserve another seat in the Hague.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#93)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:45:48 AM EST
    Edger-Maybe he is short on oil and long on bunker busters. That would explain it.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#94)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:49:17 AM EST
    Heh. That could be, Squeaky. And of course the bloodsucking mosquitos will lap up anything Steve has to say if they think they can save a couple of bucks filling their gasbags... I mean gastanks.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#95)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:52:37 AM EST
    We had those stupid duck and cover drills the first couple of year of school. Yeah, like a 1910 vintage desk is gonna save you in the event of thermonuclear attack.\ Edger, We're about the same age. Our drills in grade school were: "Exit the classroom, sit down in the hall by the lockers, Put your head between your knees, and kiss your ass goodbye."

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:53:05 AM EST
    Forbes needs to be put right in the front line.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#97)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:56:43 AM EST
    Keep on feeding that fantasy Steve: Oil back at $US70 as tension over Iran rises April 18, 2006
    OIL leapt to $US70 a barrel for the first time in 7¬Ĺ months yesterday, extending strong gains made last week as tension mounted between Iran and the West over Tehran's nuclear ambitions. "The drama over Iran's face-off with the West, the rise of insurgency in Nigeria and gasoline supply concerns in the US ahead of the driving season are keeping a high floor under oil," said Victor Shum at consultancy Purvin & Gertz in Singapore. US May crude oil futures rose US66c to $US69.98 a barrel at midday, having touched $US70 earlier, its highest since Hurricane Katrina battered the US Gulf Coast in late August last year, sending US prices to a $US70.85 record high.


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#98)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:58:04 AM EST
    Sorry that was to Charlie, quoting Edger, who agrees with Jondee, who irks Jim, who is clueless. And that buzzing sound is Jim's spin machine in high gear.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#99)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 08:01:45 AM EST
    Che, maybe that should be the first part of the punishment meted out by the Hague for the nutases who want to stat things like this, and for idiots like Forbes who feed the suckers with fantasy.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#100)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 08:02:23 AM EST
    that should read "nutcases"

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 08:03:17 AM EST
    And Jefferson, Adams, Franklin & co spinning at 800 rpms in thier graves.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#102)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 08:14:37 AM EST
    Richard Clarke and Steven Simon remind us of Newt's feelings toward Iran. I think this makes a good case for his wanting to pull the troops from Iraq. Iraq is history.... the future beckons.
      These contingencies seem familiar to us because we faced a similar situation as National Security Council staff members in the mid-1990's. American frustrations with Iran were growing, and in early 1996 the House speaker, Newt Gingrich, publicly called for the overthrow of the Iranian government. He and the C.I.A. put together an $18 million package to undertake it.
    Memory lane.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#103)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 08:17:56 AM EST
    Anybody have a list of email addresses of Senators and Reps? It might be a good idea to start repeatedly emailing a link to this thread to them.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#104)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 08:19:10 AM EST
    Media too.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#105)
    by Sailor on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 08:59:23 AM EST
    edger, this and this might help. BTW, you're linking to some great sites these days;-)

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#106)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:02:06 AM EST
    Render unto Caesar was about paying a tax, not about dropping bombs on civilians.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#107)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:37:30 AM EST
    Al, "So, chew2, how many Iranian suicide bombers would you say are too many? For my part, I would say ... one." If you really believe that then you should lock yourself in your room and not come out until the 21st century is over. Iran can already mobilize more than one suicide bomber. I'm a lefty, and I opposed the invasion of Iraq, but it wasn't because of fear. Nor am I in favor of attacking Iran. Just spare me the fear and hysteria over a hyped 40,000 figure.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#108)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:45:21 AM EST
    Sailor, Thanks for the directories! I have no illusions that they would take the time to read this thread, but if even a couple or more of them scanned thru it, it may help to get them thinking and juiced up. Only takes one or two to start on one or two more each, etc. etc. I know two things. Not sending it to them will produce no result... and no effort is not an option. btw, I try to link to sites where people make sense or ask good questions, you know?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#109)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:07:50 AM EST
    ppj - If the 9/11 attackers did it only in order to ascend to paradise, then they're crazy not brave. But, I dont think thats the only reason they did it; which isnt to say that what they did was right. It wasnt. But, dont be so sure that every American that follows every order is brave. Sometimes it takes more bravery not to follow orders and suffer the consequences. And, as I said before, "Render unto Caesar" was about paying a tax, nothing else.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 12:00:40 PM EST
    They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details ... Offer up your best defense But this is the end This is the end of the innocence

    Posted by edger April 17, 2006 08:04 AM don't strike me as a very tall fellow.
    Poor guy. Must be a drag to not be able to look anyone in the eye.
    Poor bastard needs a stepladder to look someone in the knee and I was a point guard/second baseman for a reason.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#112)
    by Al on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 02:11:01 PM EST
    chew2, You still don't get it, do you? I'm sure the Iranians don't have 40,000 suicide bombers, but the point is, that's totally irrelevant. I'm also sure they can easily muster enough suicide bombers to cause a good deal of havoc, and I think that's what they meant. If you're not afraid, you should be, if nothing else for the many, many people who are going to die. If you think things like 40,000 suicide bombers are just bravado, think again. And while you're thinking, think about what's really at stake. In other words, grow up.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#113)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 02:32:08 PM EST
    Experts Speak: No Good Military Options in Iran CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AND DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES 'The U.S. capability to make a mess of Iran's nuclear infrastructure is formidable,' says veteran Mideast analyst Geoffrey Kemp. 'The question is, what then?' NEWSWEEK has learned that the CIA and DIA have war-gamed the likely consequences of a U.S. pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear facilities. No one liked the outcome. As an Air Force source tells it, 'The war games were unsuccessful at preventing the conflict from escalating.'" RAY TAKEYH, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS "To properly address the complexities of the Iranian challenge, Washington should appreciate that its policy of relentlessly threatening Iran with economic coercion and even military reprisals only empowers reactionaries and validates their pro-nuclear argument." JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT "[A] military strike would be disastrous for the United States. It would rally the Iranian public around an otherwise unpopular regime, inflame anti-American anger around the Muslim world, and jeopardize the already fragile U.S. position in Iraq. And it would accelerate, not delay, the Iranian nuclear program. Hard-liners in Tehran would be proven right in their claim that the only thing that can deter the United States is a nuclear bomb. Iranian leaders could respond with a crash nuclear program that could produce a bomb in a few years."

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#114)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 03:04:53 PM EST
    Al: I'm sure the Iranians don't have 40,000 suicide bombers I talk frequently with my Iranian next door neighbor Shahram, Al. He is the editor of MWCNews, and though it's been many years since he lived there, he tells me that Iran almost certainly has many more trained suicide bombers than 40,000. He says the response in Iran when asked why they, or Hamas, or anyone else, would use suicide bombers can be summed up as: "We use what we have. If you wish us to use military attack planes instead, then trade them to us for the suicide bomb belts - and we'll use the planes instead to respond to any attack. Fair?"

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#115)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 04:00:45 PM EST
    January 2, 2006 -- Intelligence indications and warnings abound:
    Intelligence and military officials around the world are also bracing for the results of a U.S. attack on Iran. This includes the distinct possibility of a major Shia retaliatory attack in Iraq, the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, and Afghanistan against U.S. military, diplomatic, and economic targets in the region. Radioactive fallout from a conventional or tactical nuclear attack on Iran will result in major problems with Pakistan, India, China, Russia, Japan, and other downwind countries in Asia and the Pacific Rim, possibly including the fall of the Pervez Musharraf government in Pakistan and replacement by a radical Islamist regime having possession of nuclear weapons. That would provoke a military response from nuclear power India. In a counter-attack, Iran would immediately launch its Shahab I and II missiles at the U.S. Green Zone in Baghdad, the Al Udeid airbase in Qatar, the US Navy base in Bahrain, Camp Doha base in Kuwait, Al Seeb airbase in Oman, Baghdad International Airport, the U.S. base in Kandahar, Afghanistan. Iran would also launch its long-range Shahab III missiles on the Israeli cities of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Beersheba, Eilat, and the Israeli nuclear complex at Dimona. Iranian missiles would also be launched at US naval ships in the Persian Gulf and oil installations in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. The virtual end of NATO as a viable defense organization may also result from an attack that will drive a final wedge between Washington and Europe. And China may elect to respond financially and militarily against the United States since Iran is China's second largest source of imported Middle East oil after Saudi Arabia and plans to use an Iranian terminal for the export of natural gas from Turkmenistan. [China now imports 60 percent of its oil needs, and Iran represents 17 percent of those imports].


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:17:26 PM EST
    Jondee writes:
    ppj - If the 9/11 attackers did it only in order to ascend to paradise, then they're crazy not brave.
    One person's view of reality is often different than another's. They have a world view that is valid to them. What they are are terrorists bent on carrying out their belief of what Islam requires of them. Al - So how are they going to attack? After the first few anyone even looking like a terrorist will be shot on sight. Hard on the innocent and probably what the terrorists want but your visions of waves of terrorists blowing themselves and our troops up is as irrational as the suicide bombers thinking they're on their way to 72 virgins. charlie writes:
    Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. There's not a point you can't miss. We were pointing out just how STUPID the duck and cover drills were
    Actually the drills weren't all that stupid. The point was to get your precious behind parallel with your head and both below the window's lowest point. That way you could hopefully survive the blast knocking out the windows and spraying shrapnel through out the room. The desk top would provide some protection from falling debris and ricocheting glass. And don't forget the effort put forth to convince the Soviets that we could catch their launch immediately and our response would ensure Mutually Assured Destruction. A lot of people died doing just that, and if you can't tip your hat and say thanks, well, let's just say you continue to tell us who you are and what values you have. There was a purpose for that jet fighter you got your cookies off sitting in, charlie. It is called national defense. And yes Jondee, that trumps Public Service, each and every time.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#117)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:45:58 PM EST
    Mutually Assured Dementia (Billmon)
    It appears our long national journey towards complete idiocy is over. We've arrived. Idiots, of course, don't need a reason to be idiots. ...it is probably naive to expect the American public to react with horror, remorse or even shock to a U.S. nuclear sneak attack on Iran, even though it would be one of the most heinous war crimes imaginable, short of mass genocide. Iran has been demonized too successfully - thanks in no small part to the messianic delusions of its own end-times president - for most Americans to see it as a victim of aggression... Why should anyone or anything change? When a culture is as historically clueless and morally desensitized as this one appears to be, I don't think it's absurd to suppose that even an enormous war crime - the worst imaginable, short of outright genocide - could get lost in the endless babble of the talking heads. When everything is just a matter of opinion, anything - literally anything - can be justified.


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#118)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 07:50:46 PM EST
    The lunatic is in the hall The lunatics are in my hall The paper holds their folded faces to the floor And every day the paper boy brings more...
    Brain Damage

    Jimmy, jimmy, jimmy. Now that you mention it, I know somethin' even dumber than duck and cover drills. Do ya think it was the flying glass or the heat from the thermonuclear blast that did 'em in at Hiroshima? Or was it the radiation burns? That's your problem. You're in a pre-8/6 mindset. America can't afford you anymore. You're a dinosaur. Go find yourself a tar pit and fall in it. Metaphorically speaking.

    Jim, The Soviet Union lost at least 20 million people during WWII. Do you really think they needed the likes o'you to lecture them on the realities of mutually assured destruction? We're still here in spite of people like you, not because of you. The Cuban Missile Crisis is Exhibit A.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#121)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:04:41 PM EST
    Joe Biden wake up call to tell us that there is nothing we can do. via Crooks & Liars has the video.
    Matthews: Does the President of the United States have the authority to attack Iran? Biden: No, not without congressional support, authorization I should say. Matthews: Is that a consensus in your body? Biden: "No. I don't think it's a consensus among Republicans or Democrats at this time..."


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#122)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:54:50 PM EST
    The London Times report that is the cause of all this panic and terror is a rehash of a news report dating from at least as early as September 2004 about Iran's capability to attack Europe. It's old news. The only new information is the 40,000 figure which is totally unsourced, as I pointed out earlier. Check out this September 2004 report from pittsburghlive online. http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/columnists/datelinedc/s_247793.html

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#123)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:07:01 PM EST
    ppj - And yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. O.k jim. I get it. All public servants are the same and all military personel are the same and military personel - no matter what they do or dont do - will always perform a more valuable service to this great nation than any public servant ever could. Cuz you say so. And the dish ran away with the spoon.

    Them Jews is way to touchy about people claiming to want to annihilate them. They should get over it. And the Iranian promise to destroy America? Just talk for the home folks and scare a few Americans. And the 12th Imam? Such craziness. Who could believe it? An Iranian caliphate? What a joke. This is nothing like the deal with the Austrian corporal. Nothing at all.

    Biden is probably right. There will be no consensus until the nukes start to fly. Once that happens the wrong decision will be made. It is inevitable.

    40,000 headmen couldn't make me change my mind

    Forty thousand headmen couldn't make me change my mind If I had to take the choice between the deafman and the blind I know just where my feet should go and that's enough for me I turned around and knocked them down and walked across the sea Traffic

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#128)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:08:37 AM EST
    Lunatic World
    It is only the doctrine of Western "exceptionalism" (see here and here, for example) that permits this lunacy to go largely unremarked. We believe that we have the ultimate solution to human history, and that it is our right and obligation to share it with the rest of the world -- by military might, as required. Since we have identified ourselves as inherently noble and virtuous, nothing we do can possibly be wrong. We might make a few regrettable errors -- engage in a little torture here and there, for example (even though the systematic use of torture is now indisputably official U.S. policy) -- but we are always on the side of the angels. And those we have identified as our enemies are inherently evil. ... This apocalyptic crusader perspective suffuses the West, and the United States in particular. It need not be religious in nature, although these days it often is. The West has also embraced the secular version of this psychology, in the form of the "Idea of Progress." Note that, to date, not one major voice in the United States or in the West has denounced in absolute, unmistakable terms the moral depravity and monstrousness of an attack on Iran in the current circumstances. ... We should not be surprised, whatever may happen now. A lunatic ideology rules us, and almost everyone takes it for granted. And practically no one is protesting against it in any serious manner at all.


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#129)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:23:58 AM EST
    We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who Comes on at five She can tell you 'bout the plane crash with a gleam In her eye ... You don't really need to find out what's going on You don't really want to know just how far it's gone ... Dirty little secrets Dirty little lies We got our dirty little fingers in everybody's pie


    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#130)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 07:39:33 AM EST
    msimon-
    Them Jews is way to touchy about people claiming to want to annihilate them. They should get over it.
    Which 'jews' would that be? The biggest group in America supporting Israel is the Religious right these days. Are those the 'jews' that you are talking about?
    Biden is probably right. There will be no consensus until the nukes start to fly.
    Nice. You imply that the 'Jews' will be responsible. Are the 'jews' also responsible for the poor economy? Or your poor mental health? You sound like a guy from 1930s Austria. Belong to any hate groups? Or is the Republican party enough?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#132)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 09:40:12 AM EST
    I meant a nuclear strike bulletbrain. And, by "get away" I meant not be turned into a parking lot in rataliation. And spare us the "you libs" b.s. Oh wait, first pull your head out of your a**, then extract whatever blaring talk radio station is playing in there.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#133)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 10:07:46 AM EST
    Jondee, Amazing isn't it, how they can be so obtuse as to pretend to be completely unaware (or not care) that the Iranians are talking about how they will retaliate if the US attacks them? Of course, the standard line is that bush can do anything at all to them, including nuking them, and if they retaliate it will obviously be an aggressive action against the US. A clear act of war, right? So the good ol' cowboy from crawford is jes' perteckin' us, right? Right.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#134)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 10:16:29 AM EST
    They are uneducable, obviously, in many cases. Sad.

    Jondee... I meant a nuclear strike bulletbrain. I know what you meant. (you guys just can't resist the childish name calling can you?) As I said...they'd claim it was self defense... because they were oppressed by Israel or the US or whatever.....and all you libs would jump on it... because as we all know..... we are the evil ones and are the reason for all the world's problems...right? We had it comming. Of course they wouldn't get away with it because there isn't a lib (terrorist sympathizer) in the white house now. But I'm sure you'd be willing to let them slide huh? Edger... pretend to be completely unaware (or not care) that the Iranians are talking about how they will retaliate if the US attacks them? Once again.. not even close dude. We are all totally AWARE of their threats... we just aren't intimidated by them like the liberal commie left is. Let me put it in simpler terms... You threatening to punch me back if I punch you won't deter me if I think you need it. Comprendo?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#136)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:51:02 PM EST
    You threatening to punch me back if I punch you won't deter me if I think you need it. Comprendo? I and others here comprendo much more from that statement than you obviously didn't comprendo when you made it, BB. Might help you to start at the beginning. Of the thread, you know? Though I'm not holding out much hope for your ability to comprendo. Comprendo, amigo?

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#137)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:40:36 PM EST
    B.B - "Terrorist sympathizer" and "liberal commie left" isnt name calling? Tell Koko we'll give her more bananas if she stops typing things for you.

    Re: Iran Claims 40,000 Suicide Bombers Ready to At (none / 0) (#138)
    by jondee on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:13:03 PM EST
    JRT - You'll find the "fabricated" quote by the brains behind your partnership B.B just up above.