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A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld

by TChris

The morning headline, Rumsfeld Faces Growing Revolt by Retired Generals, leads to the predictable response from our stubborn president, Bush Declares Full Support for Rumsfeld, and the sad but inevitable late afternoon headline, Rumsfeld Rejects Calls to Quit.

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  • Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:03:21 PM EST
    If only it could be like a day in the life of Ivan Denisovich. That would be karma. A sitcom called My Name is Shrub. About a bunch of down-on-their-luck, neocon nitwit ne'er do wells livin' in a transient, parolee welfare motel tryin' to clean up their karma with a little groundhog day mixed in as this dick dude keeps gettin' shot in the face every day. Each episode could end with the Shopliftin' Dude bustin' 'em for breakin' into The Office.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:12:56 PM EST
    Rumsfeld Rejects Calls to Quit.
    Must be that the guy's got some big plans brewing. Not good.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:37:59 PM EST
    charlie - Perhaps retired generals should remember that, having supped on the public teat for meany years, and still doing so, public attacks on the government is not considered in good taste by many of their peers. charlie, as a man who has had vast experience in sitting in the cockpit of a jet fighter (once), what do you think? Don't be shy, tell us what starring at all those insturments taught you.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:46:52 PM EST
    the generals want him out and for a good reason, the guy is a rat like bush and business. If I may add bin laden loves bush and rumsfeld both are helping the terrorists to win and cut our heads off. where is bin laden? in bush's bedroom with fox?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:59:42 PM EST
    charlie - Perhaps retired generals should remember that, having supped on the public teat for meany years, and still doing so, public attacks on the government is not considered in good taste by many of their peers.
    Military personnel who have, "...supped on the public teat for meany(sic) years, and still doing so..." is irrelevant to them publicly speaking out against the current administration; regardless of whether or not their former peers perceive it to be in bad taste.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:01:48 PM EST
    PPJ:
    Perhaps retired generals should remember that ... public attacks on the government is (sic) not considered in good taste by many of their peers.
    Perhaps you can understand, therefore, just how much more significant are the opinions being expressed by these generals -- compared (for example) to yours.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:24:37 PM EST
    Cymro - And how much experience do you bring to the table? My guess is it is less than mine, perhaps not. I confess though that I am basing this on the Left's well known dislike for actually serving in the military. Either way, most of these Generals are Clinton's boys, and have a vested interest in attacking Rumsfeld. Especially since he has been busy remaking the Army they left behind. And yes, ex-Generals should be seen and not heard. That understanding has been around for years. But then the same used to be said about ex-Presidents.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:39:33 PM EST
    Jim, how long were you in military intelligence? Just being in the military because you were too stupid for college does not make you a military expert.I do agree it does take some acumen to know how many potatoes to peel for a regiment.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:41:50 PM EST
    ppj - How much experience does Rumsfeld "bring to the table"? My guess is less than these Generals. Whose "service" of course dosnt count because you think they might be Democrats. But, thats right, Rumsfeld was in the ROTC and sat in a jet once.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:59:59 PM EST
    And yes, ex-Generals should be seen and not heard.
    I cannot locate that statute anywhere. As one US Citizen who helps fund the public teat these ex-generals are sucking on, I am interested in what they have to say; and, I am not alone.
    Either way, most of these Generals are Clinton's boys, and have a vested interest in attacking Rumsfeld.
    This does not mean these ex-generals do not have anything relevant to say. It gives you, and people who think like you, a way to discredit their (ex-generals) point of view.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#11)
    by DonS on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:13:14 PM EST
    The tables are turned. While we are probably not on the verge of a military coup, it is the civilian leadership that has of late amply been played the militaristic heavies. It is undoubtedly an indication of how far off the mark the neocon adventures have been that military leaders, ever the most conservative group, should find themselves venturing,in growing numbers, into open comment critical of civilian cabal gone wrong. To attribute partisan motives to these preeminently professional individuals, is merely grasping at straws.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:41:28 PM EST
    Either way, most of these Generals are Clinton's boys, and have a vested interest in attacking Rumsfeld. Especially since he has been busy remaking the Army they left behind. Proof? Relevance?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:48:56 PM EST
    PPJ:
    Cymro - And how much experience do you bring to the table? My guess is it is less than mine, perhaps not. I confess though that I am basing this on the Left's well known dislike for actually serving in the military.
    Red herring alert!! What does your comment have to do with this subject? Stop evading the issue, please. You were the one who advanced the argument that "retired generals should remember that ... public attacks on the government (were) not considered in good taste by many of their peers". I am agreeing with you 100%. What's more, I'm sure they do remember that very clearly. You do not spend your life in the military and rise to the rank of General without being completely familiar with the code of conduct, written and unwritten. And I don't need to be in the military to know that. That is what makes these publicly stated opinions so much more significant. They do not come from mere civilians like you or me, they come from retired Generals, who are willing to go out on a limb and critcize the administration -- in spite of the taboos they are violating by doing so. You have to respect that, don't you? Unless you just believe in shooting the messenger, that is.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#14)
    by rdandrea on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:59:25 PM EST
    Does anybody REALLY think that Rumsfeld actually gives a darn (wording chosen in concession to local libraries) what the average American thinks?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#15)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:25:46 PM EST
    As usual, Glenn Greenwald has a much more interesting take on this than Jim's forty-eight-thousandth trite hand-waving. Although, you should certainly keep his trite hand-waving in mind.
    In response, Bush followers have publicly speculated about every defamatory motive which could be fueling these Generals -- they have embraced every possible explanation except for the possibility that these Generals might actually hold these views sincerely. This behavior really illustrates, more than anything else, exactly how we were led into a war that has been a disaster on every front, and how we have stubbornly remained on the same course well past the time it became objectively apparent that this course was leading to nothing but abject failure. The first objective -- which worked very well for a good couple of years -- was to prevent all dissenting views by labeling those who questioned the war or who opposed it as subversives, traitors, Friends of the Terrorists, America-haters, and crazed radicals. That took care of dissenting views for awhile, ensuring an echo chamber where the President's views on the war were basically unchallenged. But the profound error of their judgments and the rank falseness of their claims could not be obscured forever, because the reality of the war slowly exposed the truth. But amazingly, facts do not deter them either. Every fact that contradicts their initial premises is discarded as fiction or the by-product of malice. Every opinion that undermines their position can be explained only by venal and corrupt motives. Every event that transpires which deviates from what they predicted ends up being the fault of others. And any individual who questions their grand plan for epic and glorious triumph in a never-ending, all-consuming War of Civilizations is someone who is either weak-willed, weak-minded, or just plain subversive -- whether that be life-long public servants like Richard Clarke and Joe Wilson (both of whom were smeared by Powerline in a separate post yesterday, which quoted RealClearPolitics calling them "Political hacks" and "fools" who "espouse positions publicly that they know to be untrue"); life-long conservatives like William Buckley or George Will, and even American military generals, including those who actually led ground troops in Iraq as recently as 2004.
    Heh... who does that remind you of?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:45:30 PM EST
    Cymro writes:
    Perhaps you can understand, therefore, just how much more significant are the opinions being expressed by these generals -- compared (for example) to yours.
    You then write:
    What does your comment have to do with this subject?
    Actually, I was comparing my experience level to charlie's, but evidently my comment was too nuanced for you. Please reread my 6:37PM for better understanding. But, since you brought the subject up, all I have done is return the favor. Or is your inflated ego so large that you actually think I will dance to whatever tune you choose to sing? You write:
    And I don't need to be in the military to know that.
    Well, there is knowing and knowing, something that I doubt you would understand. What I speak of is the ability to unerstand the culture as well as the written rules. If you haven't been there, you aren't going to figure it out. These military men embarrass themselves, motivated, I believe, by a desire to get back into a situation in which they will again be noticed. Retirement does that to some people.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:55:13 PM EST
    Jondee - Rumsfeld was never in the cockpit of a jet fighter. Unlike charlie, he didn't have a friend who would put him there. DonS - Interesting. I have commented several times that our "professional Army" may well come back and bite us on the butt. Now, if the inactive military starts using their outdated information to citicize the existing military infrastructure, how long do you think it will be before the active military returns the favor? Ex-military, especially Generals, should keep their mouths shut. All they are doing is adding to the political turmoil, something we do not need. Perhaps Rumsfeld should call them back and give them a command...say a training command in Greenland.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:59:08 PM EST
    ppj - Thanks for that in-depth explanation. What is that, the intellectual version of "cut'n run"? And btw, if you dont like snarky remarks about service, dont make them.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:02:39 PM EST
    Ex-military, especially Generals, should keep their mouths shut. Shorter Jim: "All dissent is opposition. All opposition is counterrevolutionary." This guy said it. PPJ just agrees.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:21:36 PM EST
    PPJ:
    Actually, I was comparing my experience level to charlie's, but evidently my comment was too nuanced for you. Please reread my 6:37PM for better understanding.
    This is a load of BS, and you know it. Now you are evading the point of my posts by dragging in a comparison of your experience and Charlie's, a peripheral and irrelevant discussion that doesn't have anything to do with the argument I advanced in my posts to you. You know that the only thing that matters in this discussion is the weight to be attached to the opinions of retired generals, which is greater than that to be attached to your opinion, or mine, or Chalie's or anyone else posting here. You just don't want to admit it, because you don't like what they are saying. But you had better figure out a way to listen, because it is pretty clear that this is not the last dissenting voice you will hear. If Bush continues to stubbornly defend Rumsfeld, I am willing to bet that there will be more Generals protesting Rumsfeld's conduct of this war -- just wait and see. If you admit I am right now, I will not to rub it in too much when it happens. But if you keep evading the point, don't expect any sympathy when you are proved wrong (again).

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:22:22 PM EST
    Curious question to the wingnut brigade. Just what is it about Field Marshall Van Rumsfeld* and his track record that you would like to defend? Aside from what these Generals are saying, what aspect of the wars in Iraq and Afgnaistan impress you the most? Is it the strategies, the execution, the planning, the outcome -- just what is it that you think makes this guy worth keeping? Because I am wondering how anybody other than a closet traitor would defend him given what we know now, with the evidence of our own eyes. (See how easy it is wingnuts, we can all play the treason card). *This one belongs to Digby

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:23:44 PM EST
    Good question from biguint12:
    Jim, how long were you in military intelligence? Just being in the military..................does not make you a military expert................
    answer:
    Actually, I was comparing my experience level to charlie's, but evidently my comment was too nuanced for you.
    how oabut this:
    And how much experience do you bring to the table? My guess is it is less than mine, perhaps not. I confess though that I am basing this on the Left's well known dislike for actually serving in the military.
    Turn the tables strategy in action. Did not work this time.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#23)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:54:21 PM EST
    These military men embarrass themselves, motivated, I believe, by a desire to get back into a situation in which they will again be noticed. Retirement does that to some people. Oh, come on, enough already. I think the embarassed ones are the generals who stick up for that clown. Contra Republican spin, it's quite possible to criticize the Bush Administration because you believe it's the right thing to do.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 10:56:35 PM EST
    the retired generals spoke out because the active duty ones can't by law.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:04:39 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ April 14, 2006 06:37 PM
    charlie - Perhaps retired generals should remember that, having supped on the public teat for meany years, and still doing so, public attacks on the government is not considered in good taste by many of their peers. charlie, as a man who has had vast experience in sitting in the cockpit of a jet fighter (once), what do you think? Don't be shy, tell us what starring at all those insturments taught you.
    Well, Mr Jim, I could say it taught me how to spell instruments and that opening with a gambit like that when it leaves you WIDE OPEN for the ah, so you, rummy, shrub, and dickie have more experience than any one of those Generals, eh, sport, scorcher down the sideline is kinda dumb, but alas, I'd be lying, for I'd already mastered those skills and figured that out on my own. But I'm sure you can tell us all about that whole life on the Government teat thing. I've never had the pleasure. C'mon, Jim. Share with the class.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:17:50 AM EST
    Since you brought it up, Jim, since Generals and Public Servants like, oh, clueless deputy defense secretaries so dismal they become head of the World Bank without so much as a Summer's worth of experience as a bank teller, for example, both, by definition, on the public teat? That's what I thought. The only difference is one never runs the risk of getting shot at or being held accountable for the consequences of their disastrously stupid decisions in any way shape or form.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:37:00 AM EST
    Actually, Jim. Rum-dum was a Naval Aviator in the 50s. Now, if I can take the trouble to Google and confirm that, there's no reason you can't meet those minimal standards of knowing what the hell you're talkin' about every once in a blue moon. After all, he's your hero. Personally, he's a putz, but I give credit where it's do. With Powell gone, he's the one non-chicken hawk.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#29)
    by lilybart on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 05:25:36 AM EST
    1) Isn't it against military rules to criticise your commanders while you are serving? Many of these generals spoke privately and were ignored. They were not ALLOWED to speak out before they retired. 2) Did it occur to anyone that these Generals might care about the men and women fighting and dying in this loser war? Maybe the Generals think a real PLAN is needed so they don't go die in the fourth taking of Tal Afar next week? 3) Rumsfeld is a war criminal. He and Cheney and their cabal run this government, bush is awol as usual. Maybe the Generals are desparate to get these people away from the red button before they completley ruin us?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#30)
    by john horse on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 06:09:50 AM EST
    Lilybart, I can't agree more with your points #1 and 2. These generals may just be the tip of the iceberg. The rumor is that most active military officers would like to see Rumsfeld go. The running joke in the military is that if terrorists broke into a meeting between Rumsfeld and the joint chiefs and started taking Rumsfeld hostage, not a single chief would lift a finger to save him. The other thing is that these aren't just any generals. They include in their ranks the former director of operations at the Pentagon's military joint staff and the former Commander Central Command (Middle East). Their knowledge of the planning and operations makes their criticism especially persuasive. It is highly unusual for generals to be speaking out like this. The fact that they are only goes to show just how incompetently this war has been conducted by President Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#31)
    by roger on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 06:28:34 AM EST
    To take Jim's argument a bit further, why should only Generals be forced to keep their opinions to themselves? How about all retired military? How about all former military? I'll keep my opinions private if Jim will!

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#32)
    by cpinva on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:06:37 AM EST
    growing up as a military brat, i was inculcated with the "code of conduct" at an early age: you never make public comments about the civilian leadership, regardless of how totally inept they may be; active duty can't, by law; retired, by tradition. it just isn't done. that these retired generals, the best and brightest of their military generation, have chosen to break with this hallowed tradition, should be a wake up call for all of us. this is not something done lightly, too many potential repercussions involved. they've done so, not because they seek publicity, but because of their deep concern about what's being done to the institutions that are a core part of their lives, and the men and women currently on the line. they know and accept the authority of the elected/appointed civilian leadership, that's not the issue here. what is at issue is the responsibility those elected/appointed civilians have to use the military wisely, and only when the nation's interests are truly at stake. the present administration has not exercised their authority wisely, and too many lives have been lost as a result. active duty personnel are prohibited from speaking out, but you can bet they've been in contact with these generals, as a conduit for their exasperation. will mr. bush listen? doubtful, he hasn't so far, and i think his record will remain unblemished.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:54:05 AM EST
    Cyrmo writes:
    You know that the only thing that matters in this discussion is the weight to be attached to the opinions of retired generals
    We were talking about "experience." Now you want to talk about "opinions." They are not the same. So which one is it? I will assume you mean "experience." I have not written a single word regarding the experience levels of these retired generals. Go back and read the thread. Your hectoring attempts to make me discuss something I have not said is funny. I truly enjoyed your promise not to bully me over something I haven't said if I would just agree with you. I have stated that my experience is stronger than charlie's and yours. As for the generals, I question their judgment and believe their actions are wrong. I trust that even you can understand these plain words. cpinva - Yes. They do understand, which is why I am so sad. No good can come of their actions. They serve nothing and no good cause. They merely bring attention to themselves. Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 09:00:49 AM EST
    bigunit 12 wrote:
    Jim, how long were you in military intelligence?
    I have never claimed to have been in military intelligence. Was your statement a mistake or was it done to cloak me in a claim I have never made? BTW - To join you must pass a mental and physical exam. Based on the level of your comments I assume you failed both. Squeaky - Thank you for bringing bigunit12's grossly inaccurate claim to my attention. As I noted to Cyrmo, being in the military will provide you with a background that will enhance your ability to understand the culture, history and why certain things are said and done. NOT being in the military provides you absolutely no information beyond what someone tells you. I am part of the former group. You are part of the latter. Note that I make no claim of expertise, just smarter than you in this matter. Randy Paul - There are certain occupations in life that require you to give up certain rights to be part of. The military is one of them. Roger - The next time the MSM asks me for my opinion I will say, "No comment." charlie - Actually I don't care what he was. Currently he is the SecofSDef and serves at the pleasure of the President. You may criticize him, so may I, so may the press. Military people, even retired military, should keep their mouths shut. Hmmm. Question. Was it Rumsfeld who let you sit in the jet cockpit? What a thrill that must have been. Zounds! The adventure never ends. BTW - When you demonstrate an ability to support an argument by using Links I will pay a small bit of attention to you. BTW - Since you have no experience you again revert to nitpicking. So I misspelled/typoed "instrument ." Wow! That sure refuted my claim that you "don't baens abuot the mlitary. And I will be pleased to lecture you and your middle school peers if I am not too busy working on the palatial retirement compound. Say, what kind of booster seat did you use while sitting in the jet? Lilybart - Military people, especially high ranking officers, are not allowed to comment for several reasons. Among them: If the enemy sees military commanders arguing over strategy they assume that the training, morale and overall efficiency of the troops is less than optimal.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 09:01:43 AM EST
    Jim, you've stated a lotta horsebrithume nonsense and offhand, I can't think of anything you've said that's actually been proved to be true, so it's either nonsense or, at best, neutral. So, remind me once again, just what is it that you've said that hasn't been right outta fantasy island?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 09:07:59 AM EST
    cookie Bakin' Jim, A retired general can say anything he wants no matter what you say. These generals care about the stupid loss of life of American soldiers, due to Rumsfeld's incompetence. Jim, I truly think you're a sociopath.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 09:08:35 AM EST
    Jim, what was the Colonel's' recipe for the secret sauce again?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 09:29:20 AM EST
    Military people, especially high ranking officers, are not allowed to comment for several reasons.
    left out that whole 'active duty' part, and everything else was personal insults. I didn't even have to scroll up to who the commenter was. Let's see, on the growing list of folks not allowed freedom of speech in fearful leader's america: artists musicians former military, (what a hypocrite) mothers who lost their sons in iraq anyone who disagrees I'm sure I'm missing a few, a little help here?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 09:38:45 AM EST
    cpinva et al-
    they've done so, not because they seek publicity, but because of their deep concern about what's being done to the institutions that are a core part of their lives, and the men and women currently on the line.
    Perhaps this is obvious to everyone but in case it is not listen up: THE GENERALS CALL FOR RUMMY'S RESIGNATION IS ALL ABOUT QUASHING THE INSANE PLAN TO NUKE IRAN. READ THE HERSH ARTICLE.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:11:56 AM EST
    What we are living with now is the consequences of successive policy failures. Some of the missteps include: the distortion of intelligence in the buildup to the war, McNamara-like micromanagement that kept our forces from having enough resources to do the job, the failure to retain and reconstitute the Iraqi military in time to help quell civil disorder, the initial denial that an insurgency was the heart of the opposition to occupation, alienation of allies who could have helped in a more robust way to rebuild Iraq, and the continuing failure of the other agencies of our government to commit assets to the same degree as the Defense Department. My sincere view is that the commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions--or bury the results. Flaws in our civilians are one thing; the failure of the Pentagon's military leaders is quite another. Those are men who know the hard consequences of war but, with few exceptions, acted timidly when their voices urgently needed to be heard. When they knew the plan was flawed, saw intelligence distorted to justify a rationale for war, or witnessed arrogant micromanagement that at times crippled the military's effectiveness, many leaders who wore the uniform chose inaction. A few of the most senior officers actually supported the logic for war. Others were simply intimidated, while still others must have believed that the principle of obedience does not allow for respectful dissent. The consequence of the military's quiescence was that a fundamentally flawed plan was executed for an invented war, while pursuing the real enemy, al-Qaeda, became a secondary effort. There have been exceptions, albeit uncommon, to the rule of silence among military leaders. Former Army Chief of Staff General Shinseki, when challenged to offer his professional opinion during prewar congressional testimony, suggested that more troops might be needed for the invasion's aftermath. The Secretary and Deputy Secretary of Defense castigated him in public and marginalized him in his remaining months in his post. Army General John Abizaid, head of Central Command, has been forceful in his views with appointed officials on strategy and micromanagement of the fight in Iraq--often with success. Marine Commandant General Mike Hagee steadfastly challenged plans to underfund, understaff and underequip his service as the Corps has struggled to sustain its fighting capability. So what is to be done? We need fresh ideas and fresh faces. That means, as a first step, replacing Rumsfeld and many others unwilling to fundamentally change their approach. The troops in the Middle East have performed their duty. Now we need people in Washington who can construct a unified strategy worthy of them. It is time to send a signal to our nation, our forces and the world that we are uncompromising on our security but are prepared to rethink how we achieve it. It is time for senior military leaders to discard caution in expressing their views and ensure that the President hears them clearly. And that we won't be fooled again.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#41)
    by TomStewart on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:13:16 AM EST
    I thought the thread was discussing the Generals and their comments, but it seems to just be about throwing insults are Jim, and Jim being obtuse. Kinda like most of the other threads.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:25:05 AM EST
    Speaking of filtering out the info we dont like, I love how the Right fixes on "render unto Shrub" and Leviticus and has completely excised a little ditty previously refered to as The Sermon on the Mount.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:29:22 AM EST
    That comment was meant for the open thread.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#44)
    by cpinva on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:59:34 AM EST
    squeaky, the general's call for rumsfeld's resignation is not all about a potential attack on iran, though that's part of it. i read the article, and i'm not clear on how you read that into it. their concern is overall, not incident specific.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:01:55 AM EST
    bigunit12 - You are a master of stating the obvious. No one has said they can't say what they want. I have just said they should keep their collective mouths shut. BTW - I did my duty. I see that you did not. Oh well, no surprise there. Sailor - Actually, even active duty military officers may say what they want. How long they remain on active duty is another question. charlie - Did you fib to us about sitting in the cockpit of the jet?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#46)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:25:14 AM EST
    Actually, even active duty military officers may say what they want
    Yes, in the same way that anyone can commit a crime. Because it is a crime. It is against the law for active duty officers to speak out:
    UCMJ - ART. 88 - CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:31:53 AM EST
    cpinva-Yes, many have called to mothball Rummy over the last two years, and Rummy's mismanagement is legendary at this point. The timing of these generals and the Hersh article, which was based on leaks from non-retired military, is all meant to stop the insanity of a nuclear war with Iran. The idea is a preemptive attack on the nuke plan and Rummy. The military brass who thought Iraq a foolish idea but kept their mouths shut, as ppj suggests they do this time, have learned from history. Now they are speaking up both anonymously in the Hersh piece and openly as retired brass. The timing is no coincidence as The Chimp in Chief could shoot his nuclear wad off as easily as it is for him to say "Wild Speculation". Nuking Iran is a bad idea for everyone except the WH and Republican incumbents who depend on a terrified constituency in order to maintain their power. No one would vote for them again otherwise. The stakes are huge for this WH. If Bush et al lose control of Congress in November his a** is fried. Others will go to jail. He knows that, unless he does something big to maintain power he will unquestionably be impeached. The unitary executive hoax will blow up in his face like a loaded cigar. So yes this is all about Bush and Iran. Chipping away at Rummy is a flank attack as was the Hersh article.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#48)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:37:12 AM EST
    ppj questions another person's patriotism. what a surprise, yet another example of why it's the last refuge of a scoundrel. And questioning another person's veracity, that's rich coming from a proven liar.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:50:07 AM EST
    "Jim, I truly think you're a sociopath." Jim's reply "bigunit12 - You are a master of stating the obvious." For once you're right cookieman

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 12:19:13 PM EST
    The secret sauce, Jim? MOS? Whose military? Date and circumstances of discharge? Recipe for Apple Turnovers? Best time to make the donuts?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 12:32:54 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ April 14, 2006 07:24 PM
    Cymro - And how much experience do you bring to the table? My guess is it is less than mine, perhaps not. I confess though that I am basing this on the Left's well known dislike for actually serving in the military. Either way, most of these Generals are Clinton's boys, and have a vested interest in attacking Rumsfeld. Especially since he has been busy remaking the Army they left behind. And yes, ex-Generals should be seen and not heard. That understanding has been around for years. But then the same used to be said about ex-Presidents.
    People used to actually win elections. That understanding had been around for years, too. They can say whatever they want. This is an illegitimate trash administration down to a small core of ignorant, illegitimate trash supporters. Defenders of this administration are like defenders of child molestation. They have no legitimate case or arguments to make. Their position is intellectually and morally bankrupt. They just do it out of force of habit. You're sounding more and more like that btk dude every day, Jim.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 01:09:29 PM EST
    PPJ: Cymro writes:
    You know that the only thing that matters in this discussion is the weight to be attached to the opinions of retired generals
    We were talking about "experience." Now you want to talk about "opinions." They are not the same. So which one is it? I will assume you mean "experience." I have not written a single word regarding the experience levels of these retired generals. Go back and read the thread.
    This is nothing but obfuscation, because I have been speaking about both experience and opinions, not one or the other. Let me spell it out in simple sentences: 1. The Generals have experience. That is why their opinions are important in the first place. 2. Any differences in experience between you, me and Charlie are irrelevant. Because the Generals have far, far more experience than you, me, charlie or anyone else on this thread. 3. The Generals are choosing to break with the military practice of not criticizing their commanders. That fact makes their opinions even more significant. 4. Therefore the Generals' opinions, in this case, are far more important than your opinion, or mine or Charlie's. 5. Therefore you should listen to what they have to say. Is that plain enough for you?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 01:57:48 PM EST
    Hmmmmmm, one more time. I have not commented on their experience. Why do you keep acting as if I did? I would say that you feel it an easy point to prove that they have more experience that I. My point is, has amd will be that I have more experience than you, charlie and Squeaky. That is just a fact. My second point is, has and will be they should not be talking. I trust you can understand the above.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:08:30 PM EST
    The secret sauce, Jim? The MOS? Whose service? When and under what circumstance were you discharged? The best time to make the donuts?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:31:37 PM EST
    I still don't get it. Leave aside whether or not it is "proper" or "seemly" for retired military to speak against Rumsfeld, and it is obviously legal. The larger question is, why would anyone contiue to defend Rumsfeld at this point? Wingnuts? Anyone?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:35:38 PM EST
    I have no military experience at all. I was never in military intelligence or any sort of "ops". But I am a sentient being and all of the available evidence is that Rumsfeld is a big part of the problem. From the get go, his philosophy is that everything we thought we learned about military strategy in Vietnam is actually wrong. And he continues to have the full confidence of Bush and Cheney because...........??

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:47:24 PM EST
    jim, the cook who would be king. The generals opinions come from their experience.Are you really this big of a moron naturally, or is it something you practice?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#58)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 03:56:01 PM EST
    Jim, the "it's all about publicity" smear wore out years ago. Just give it up already. Make a new one up, for the children.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 04:51:37 PM EST
    ppj-you are spouting nonsense here (are we surprised)
    My point is, has amd will be that I have more experience than you, charlie and Squeaky. That is just a fact
    Quantity without the means to process the experience does not lead to quality analysis. That is a fact. Do you really want to go down the list of people with more military experience than you who have become criminal or made really bad decisions based on their 'experience' If fact you have written off career generals because they have a different opinion than yours. I think your advice to them was that they should keep their mouths shut. Yours is the mouth that functions only as an echo chamber. These guys not only have more experience than you they have guts.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#60)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 05:54:39 PM EST
    I have not commented on their experience.
    No, you just said ex-military should STFU. Please take your own advice. BTW, while ppj being was hoist on his own retard, another general and a former defenese secretary have also come out against rummy. And speaking of bush, anyone else remember daddy and scowcroft saying he was wrong to attack iraq!? You remember scowcraft right? Sure you do, he was National Security Advisor for daddy.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 06:30:28 PM EST
    PPJ:
    I have not commented on their experience.

    Why do you keep acting as if I did? I would say that you feel it an easy point to prove that they have more experience that I. My point is, has and will be that I have more experience than you, charlie and Squeaky. That is just a fact.
    So what? Who cares? Only you, it seems. We all know that you have way less experience than the Generals, so your experience has no relevance in this discussion. The same applies to the rest of us posting in this thread. So your level of experience compared to mine, charlie's, squeaky's or anyone else here is completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Also, the question of whether or not you ever commented on the experience of the Generals is immaterial, and I am not acting as if you had commented on it. I do not need you to comment before I can reach obvious conclusions like the ones in the previous paragraph. The only thing that is material is the opinion of the Generals. And my point from the outset has been that their courage in breaking with military conventions and speaking in public adds even more weight to their opinions. With all your experience, doesn't that fact carry any weight with you? After all, you are the one who has been pointing out that they should keep quiet, so logic would suggest that you would take their opinions more seriously when they feel strongly enough to break with the accepted convention. (I hope I'm not being too nuanced for you to follow, though it would not surprise me if you respond with yet more obfuscation that does not address my point).

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 07:00:39 PM EST
    Sailor - Again you misquote me. Why do you do that? I didn't say STFU, I just said they should shut up. And your made up stories are so easy to refute. As to another one? Guess they don't know that eagles don't flock. Squeaky - Your inability to keep on subject is famous. As you know I was speaking of experience in the military, of which you have none. And would you like to list those criminals who have no military experience? What a totally dumb comment you made. charlie - Tell us again about that booster seat you used to sit on in the cockpit. Wow! Zounds. The adventure continues. BTW - What happened to the sports quotations? And the street language? Someone finally tell you how phony you sound? bigunit12 writes:
    "Jim, I truly think you're a sociopath." Jim's reply "bigunit12 - You are a master of stating the obvious."
    Care to link that quote?? No? Just made it up, eh? Know what they call people who make things up? You write:
    Just being in the military because you were too stupid for college does not make you a military expert.
    Oh, really? Careful there bigunit.
    "Understanding Engineers" The graduate with a science degree asks, "Why does it work?" The graduate with an engineering degree asks, "How does it work?" The graduate with an accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?" The graduate with an arts political science degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?" (Thanks to Denny Wilson)
    Et al - I find all of this truly educational and amusing, so it is a double dip of enjoyment. I never said a word about the general's experience, or compared their experience to mine. Doubt me? Read the thread. My comment was simply that it is improper for them to comment. Yet you attack, time and again, my military experience, although you have absolutely none. Now. What does my experience or their experience have to do with the right or wrong of them making comments on military and foreign policy? The answer of course, is nothing. Nada. Zip. Big O. But because you are unable to muster an argument (note the military word, charlie) you just attack and make snarky remarks. Typical. Can I get you some cheese to go with your whines?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 07:49:10 PM EST
    Jim, to paraphrase Joe Louis, ya can't run, ya can't hide, what the hell can ya do?
    Care to link that quote?? No? Just made it up, eh? Know what they call people who make things up?
    Novelists. Guests on Oprah. Liars. Cheats. Frauds. Mr President. Your pathetic attempts to sound as though you know you're talking about not withstanding, you continue to assume facts not in evidence. Either prove something or hit the bricks.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#64)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 07:53:01 PM EST
    Welcome to another episode of 'everything's about jim'.
    Sailor - Again you misquote me. Why do you do that? I didn't say STFU, I just said they should shut up.
    . Golly, sounds like what is the meaning of 'is' to me. Gee jiminy, you think ex-military should shut up, yet you refuse to do. What an oxymoron!
    And your made up stories are so easy to refute
    I provided links, just because your worldview is crumbling, don't blame the messenger.
    Yet you attack, time and again, my military experience, although you have absolutely none.
    gee, and we have only your word for yours, and you are a proven liar on this blog. Want links ... again?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:06:17 PM EST
    Report: Rumsfeld May Be Liable for Torture What do you think ppj? Torture OK as long as Chimpy gives it the nod. Your pals are dropping one by one. Must be Clintons fault.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:30:40 PM EST
    PPJ:
    I never said a word about the general's experience, or compared their experience to mine. Doubt me? Read the thread. ... What does my experience or their experience have to do with the right or wrong of them making comments on military and foreign policy? The answer of course, is nothing. Nada. Zip. Big O.
    Wrong again! Don't think that you get away with slipping that non-sequitur past us. Let's break down your comment:
    What does my experience ... have to do with the right or wrong of them making comments on military and foreign policy? The answer of course, is nothing. Nada. Zip. Big O.
    Agreed, 100%. We're all with you there. Your experience is irrelevant.
    What does ... their experience have to do with the right or wrong of them making comments on military and foreign policy? The answer of course, is nothing. Nada. Zip. Big O.
    Now you're 100% wrong. Their experience is precisely what does give them the right to make comments, and is precisely what makes their comments important. See, we care about what they say, because we know that they have had to think hard about whether to give voice to views critical of the administration, because they certainly knew that they would be cricized by people like you -- and by others in the military whose opinions they may hold in even higher esteem than yours.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 06:12:48 AM EST
    Cymro - No. The issue is whether or not they should make comments, not their experience. Their experience could be used as to the quality of their comment, not the right. Again. Show me where I commented on the experience of the generals. I did not. You know it, and when I invited you show us, you didn't. You just repeated the charges. Dishonest is as dishonest does, eh? Squeaky - I think I have as much chance of winning the Power Ball Lottry as Rumsfeld has of being tried for torture. All you have is a typical Left Wing "feel good" complaint. And if their critical thinking capabilities are no better than Cyrmo has demonstarted above, make that win the Lottery twice....in a row. Sailor - In most people's worldview when someone makes something up and says someone said it, it is called lying. I repeat. You made up the claim that I told the generals STFU, and you cab't show that I did. charlie - So now you are answering for bigunit12? Interesting. But, outside of flapping your gums, you didn't answer my charge that I had not said what he wrote. That's called lying, charlie. Now prove that biguit12 didn't make that up. Oh, you can't? Well then just give us some more sports babble and act like that actually means something. Want some cheese with that whine, charlie? And I do hope that booster seat was padded.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 06:43:51 AM EST
    The MOS, Jim? Whose military and in what capacity? Date and circumstances of discharge? The recipe for the special sauce? Those are the only questions before you.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 06:58:10 AM EST
    I'm not saying everyone on the right is a blathering idiot, but you sure don't have to look very hard to find some astounding displays of wingnut insanity. This letter to the editors of Connecticut's The Day is a good example: "Recent polls indicate President George W. Bush is at an all-time low in popularity with the American people. This is the best news I've heard in years. Since when has strong, effective leadership been popular? Think back to when you were in school. The unpopular teacher was the one who was strict, stern and unwavering in his or her duties. The cool teacher was well-liked and popular. However, when it was all said and done at the end of the term, we all had to admit that the unpopular teacher was the most respected, the most effective and held a strong popularity that was evident by the end results of our own achievements. George Bush, the leader, has his focus on doing what is right and preventing the spread of world terrorism. Thank God he is not interested in being popular. Kudos to President Bush for being an unpopular leader. I hope he keeps up the good work." --Jim Leblanc [Le Blank???] heh! Oh, I can pretty much guarantee he will, Jim. Why don't you pour yourself another ice-cold glass of Kool-Aid and tell us how well the war in Iraq is going? It's a very unpopular war which, by your skewed thinking, must mean it's going very well. -- Flag-sucking half-wits


    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#70)
    by Sailor on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 08:55:26 AM EST
    Sailor - Again you misquote me.
    Well that's a lie, because I never quoted you. It's easy to tell a quote, it has "these" funny little marks around it.
    And your made up stories are so easy to refute.
    you mean the one where I linked to scowcroft saying the war was a mistake or the one where I linked to the UCMJ showing you were wrong?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:47:29 AM EST
    Sailor - This is what you said:
    Posted by Sailor April 15, 2006 06:54 PM (you quoting me)I have not commented on their experience. (you write)No, you just said ex-military should STFU. Please take your own advice.
    So your lame excuse of:
    Well that's a lie, because I never quoted you
    is revealed for what it is. You've been caught, Sailor. Chew your foot off and maybe you will escape.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:05:56 AM EST
    Edger - I don't drink Moon Bat Juice, but I would consider a nice glass of red.. Any decent cabernet will be fine. I am also partial to a little oak, so don't let it breath too long. And tell me, why do you feel it necessary to make fun of his name? Does that make you a bigger person? A brighter bulb on the Christmas tree of life? Actually, I think it makes you look shabby and self-centered. And it points up that you are not capable of making a reasoned response to his claims. charlie - Sitting in that jet cockpit must have inflamed your hemorrhoids so badly that you have lost your temper and seem to actually think you can demand something. A little over 10 years in Naval Aviation, charlie. Real military experience in the real world. No reading about it in the papers as you do for your sports meme. No waiting for someone to explain military culture. Experience charlie. I have it, you don't. Now give me some NJ tough guy babble talk, and then explain you didn't mean to insult Italians by your implication that they were all Mafia members. But wait. You learned that from your ...brother-in-law was it? No matter, another case of charley having no real experience. He even has to copy his language.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#73)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:30:36 AM EST
    ppj has shown his cards. empty hand. No need to ask any more about his 'experience'. By guarding your humility so fiercely your humanity shows through the cracks. Yes, being human is not so straightforward. It is rife with contradictions. Sorta sweet. Takes much of the hot air away,

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#74)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:36:30 AM EST
    Jim attacks the Generals for speaking publically but devotes not a single iota of attention to what they have said. He delights in the fact that Rummy will not be tried for torture, but will not discuss the torture policy. Jim, the resident chatterer. He heeds his Right propaganda well, and then brings it here for the spewing as though it were something he's thought about. Some day we'll all learn not to be taken in by this kind of spin, and stay on topic. Or maybe we won't.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#75)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:44:11 AM EST
    ppj - After all the snark (90% of your contribution on this thread) is pared away, it comes down to: the generals criticism weakens Bush's credibility which in turn detrimentally effects morale and emboldens the insurgents. There. See how economical and simple that was? But, feel free to make another snarky comment about how supremely relevant your experience is, and, through implication, how supremely irrelevant the generals is.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 03:22:20 PM EST
    I don't care how much military experience a person has. It is clear that Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush have done a terrible job running this invasion. If the most experienced people don't see this, then they have no sense. I have zero experience, but I knew the invasion was a bad idea. I knew that Saddam did not have WMD's, did not attempt to buy from Niger, and that he did not have a close relationship with al Qaeda like the minions tried to spin to gain support for the invasion. How did I know all this? From experts. There are many experts in this world that study things to the extreme. In the lead up to the invasion of Iraq, the minions would say something and an expert would meekly dispute the claim. These people aren't political. The MSM didn't listen to their own experts that they found, but I did. The invasion of Iraq and the situation now there calls for more than just military experience. Of course, the retired generals should speak up now that they can!!!!!!! Something needs to be done differently to clean up this mess before more people die. A new secretary of defense might be a start. Jim, Rumsfeld and Bush are mortals, not gods, and they clearly have no sense.

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 05:07:16 PM EST
    PPJ:
    Again. Show me where I commented on the experience of the generals. I did not. You know it, and when I invited you show us, you didn't. You just repeated the charges.
    I am coming to the conclusion that you either cannot read, or chose not to. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I don't give a fig about what you have commented on. What you said or did not say about the Generals experience makes not the slightest difference to the value of the General's opinions, and that's why I have never in this thread said anything about you commenting on the Generals' experience. Yet you keep challenging me to show where you commented on their experience, and I have no idea why. Because (a) I have not said that you did, (b) I don't care whether you did or didn't, since (c) it's completely irrelevant. I have observed that they have more experience than you, and that's why their opinions matter. Especially since they feel the issues are important enough to break with military conventions by speaking. That's why you should listen to what they have to say. But since you don't seem to listen well anyway, I doubt if your hearing will improve this time. Oh! and by the way, another General came out against Rumsfeld, just as I predicted. And there will be yet more. How many have to speak before you will listen?

    Re: A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#78)
    by Sailor on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 05:25:48 PM EST
    Season Two: It's all about jim:
    You've been caught, Sailor
    Actually I just proved you to be a liar ... again. Hey, you wanna lie about the scowcroft link or the UCMJ link next!? Or the fact that you said ex-military should "shut up" ( hey, notice the quotes there? That's how you quote someone), or maybe you would like to address the fact that if active duty officers complain about the leadership, they can get put in prison for a year, but once they retire they can tell the truth. Almost every comment you have posted here has contained a personal aattck. I'm continually surprised you aren't banned. Then I realise, it's just another example of how the 'left' is superior to the 'right'.