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Duke Lacrosse: Police Attempt to Interview Players

Update: The media has corrected the earlier reporting that police attempted to serve search warrants at players' dorm rooms Thursday night. Apparently, they were attempting to interview players and in some instances, walked uninvited inside dorm rooms.

Condolences to defense lawyer Joe Cheshire, whose father passed away today.

******
Original Post:

The police may have tried to serve search warrants at lacrosse players' dorm rooms yesterday. No word on why or what they expected to find. Defense attorney Joe Cheshire says,

"Now, whether there are other issues as to it relates to issues like drinking and partying and those things, I've got no clue," Cheshire said. "But if it relates to sexual assault, they can search 'til the cows come home."

WRAL has more news.

[Comments now closed, a new thread is here.]

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  • Like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld?

    Might one say that the authorities conducting this panty raid are merely athletic supporters?

    I am watching MSNBC and it seems that Abrams has seen the photos. Has anyone here seen these photos? The timeline based on the photos is now down to about 7 minutes, that she could have been raped. And it seems that the time was accurate on the digital camera. also there is something about her using some nail polish in the bathroom to do her nails, that may tell what she was doing in the bathroom.

    Narius, a woman was assaulted and raped by three of the men at that party.
    CASE CLOSED! THANK GOD!
    (more common than not in gang rape)
    That's one hell of a statement! I don't suppose you have, I dunno, a source or support for that claim. In fact, wouldn't common sense support the exact opposite?

    SupaMike, You wrote: "The timeline based on the photos is now down to about 7 minutes, that she could have been raped." I've only been able to reduce my timeline (a timeline most favorable to the defense) to 11 minutes. The last time-stamp I am aware of says 12:41. Jason Bissey says the women (or at least the car he thought the women were in) departed three minutes before the police came (12:55). Where do you get the extra four minutes?

    Actually, it does not look like the police had search warrants. What the ehck were they thinking?
    DURHAM, N.C. (AP) -- Police went to the dorm rooms of Duke University lacrosse players to attempt to interview them amid an investigation into the alleged rape of an exotic dancer at a team party, an attorney for one of the players said Friday. Attorney Kerry Sutton said police did not have any warrants when they approached the players Thursday evening. She said the players immediately contacted their attorneys, who advised them not to speak. "I have no doubt that the Durham Police Department is fully aware that every one of those young men is represented, and I'm fairly shocked that they would run an end play around defense counsel in an attempt to talk to them,'' said Sutton, who represents one of the men who lived in the off-campus house where the accuser says she was raped.


    suo posted:
    What the ehck were they thinking?
    They were thinking they don't need a search warrant to ask the players questions. They are right.

    The Abrams Report' for April 4 ABRAMS: The alleged victim's father sat down with MSNBC's Rita Cosby in his first national television interview, doesn't want his face shown in order to protect his daughter's identity. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She sounded like she was in a lot of pain, and her face was swollen up. She had bruises on her eyes, and she just looked awful. When you looked at her you could tell she had been beaten up. RITA COSBY, HOST, "RITA COSBY LIVE & DIRECT": How would you describe the way she looked with her bruises that day when you saw her after the hospital? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She looked like she had been in a fight. I don't know if you've ever seen the boxers on TV. She looked like she had been in a real good fight and lost. COSBY: And where else did you see the bruises? You said you saw them on her face... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just on her face, and I remember seeing a bruise on -- a scratch on her arm. And--but she told me she had a cut on her leg. She said my leg is hurting real bad. She said I think it was thrown out of joint. As a matter of fact, she told me the doctor had tried to put it back in the joint. COSBY: When you finally confronted her, what did she say to you? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said that she had been raped by three men. They had took her pocketbook, her cellular phone and her money all the stuff she had. COSBY: What did she say that the men said to her in that house? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said they were making racial slurs. They was calling her (BLANK) you know and all of that. She says she remember that while they were beating her. COSBY: What else did she describe about what it was like in the house? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did tell me she thought she was going to die. She said she thought they were going to kill her. COSBY: Why did they take, you know, her pocketbook and her money and her cell phone? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said they took her cell phone because she was trying to call 911. COSBY: Would she be able to I.D. them? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says she did. She I.D.'d them (INAUDIBLE). COSBY: Was she able to I.D. all three? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. COSBY: Positively? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. COSBY: No doubt in your mind it was those three? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No doubt in her mind.

    I hope they do bring in her prior conviction. It may enhance her credibility. The Abrams Report' for April 7
    FILAN: Here's what she was charged with. She was charged with larceny, speeding to elude, assault on a government official, and driving while impaired and those are actually the four misdemeanors that she pled guilty to and went to jail for, is that right? VANN: That's correct. She served six days in jail and then was placed on 24 months probation and was ordered to pay restitution, and she completed the six days in jail, completed the probation without incident, and paid her restitution exactly as she was ordered to do by the court. She fully complied. FILAN: And obviously, we're not going to mention her name and I certainly don't want you to give us, you know, any way of identifying her, we want to keep that safe and protected, but what's she like? VANN: She is just a nice--she was a nice person. She'd had prior to that incident, no criminal record, no driving record. She had worked a full-time job at a local industry. She had two kids. She came from--she had come from a good home. This incident happened and she regretted it. She--we entered into a plea agreement with the district attorney that avoided any felony charges and she accepted her punishment and went about her life and my contact with her has been minimal since then, as it should be. But I found her to be totally credible, totally believable. The information she gave me concerning this incident back in 2002 was essentially consistent with a great deal of the police reports and that sometimes is not always the case. FILAN: Exactly. VANN: So I found her to be very credible. FILAN: Exactly. We often find it's real hard to listen to what the client says and then read the police report because you're in two different worlds. So do you believe her based on you know her? VANN: From my--yes, from my contact with her I have no reason to think she's been given anything other than a credible report. She is--she was believable. She--her--yes, she gave me no reason then to disbelieve her. She gives me no reason to disbelieve her now. My interactions with her have always been that if she did something, she would admit it. If she didn't do something, she would tell you so... FILAN: Fair enough. VANN: ... and I have no reason to think anything other than that.


    Maybe the police went to the dorms to serve the players with Grand Jury subpoenas. BAM! See ya Monday.

    SupaMike, You wrote: "The timeline based on the photos is now down to about 7 minutes, that she could have been raped." I've only been able to reduce my timeline (a timeline most favorable to the defense) to 11 minutes. The last time-stamp I am aware of says 12:41. Jason Bissey says the women (or at least the car he thought the women were in) departed three minutes before the police came (12:55). Where do you get the extra four minutes?
    Well I am following the timeline that was is around 12:21. I think is was established that the rape could not have happened after 12:41 becuz the neighbor spoke about seeing the girls outside. I have to go through the time line again. But I do remember that one phots was at 12:21 and one at 12:38, but the time the girl was in the bathroom at anytime based on the photos was in the upper early half of the hour after midnight.

    TalkLeft posted:
    The D.A. said the accuser last week, three weeks after the incident, was able to identify one attacker. Reports are it was from a photo lineup.
    Who wants to bet the only persons in the lineup were Duke Lacrosse players? If it didn't contain any foils (persons resembling her description of the perpetrators who have nothing to do with events of that evening) it's a bad lineup. One of the four key rules in proper eyewitness identification procedures is that the lineup must contain known innocents.
    mercurynews.com
    Meanwhile, defense lawyers have yet to receive from Nifong copies of a video and a report of the process investigators used for the woman to identify players she has accused of attacking her. "We've been told there is a video of the identification process, and in my opinion we should have it by now," Sutton said.


    Hi SupaMike, "I think is was established that the rape could not have happened after 12:41 becuz the neighbor spoke about seeing the girls outside." Bissey has the car speeding away three minutes before the police came. That's eleven minutes after the 12:41 photograph. You wrote: "I do remember that one phots was at 12:21 and one at 12:38, but the time the girl was in the bathroom at anytime based on the photos was in the upper early half of the hour after midnight." Perhaps you mean 12:31, not 12:21. The defense claim is that there was a twenty seven minute gap between photographs taken at 12:04 or so and 12:31 or so, during which time the dancers locked themselves in the bathroom. Between 12:31 and 12:41, the claim is that the dancers were outside the house, based on three snapshots, the middle one being at 12:34. Bissey has the women initially entering the house around 12:00, but coming out after 20 or 30 minutes, during which time he saw the two women in a car, and overheard men complaining that they wanted their money back. From Bissey: "and one of the young men was leaning into the driver's side door, speaking with her. But at that point, the situation seemed to calm down a little bit, and they were able, I guess, to convince one of the girls to go back inside. And that's at the point where I overheard her talking about going back and getting her shoe. So the young ladies went back into the house, and at that point, nobody was out in the alley." His estimate for the amount of time that transpired between the dancers re-entering the house and coming out again is between 15 and 30 minutes! Whether these time-stamps should be regarded as accurate or not remains to be debated. But even if we accept them at face value, there is a 7 minute gap before the 12:41 picture and an 11 minute gap after. At some point Bissey's story will need to be reconciled against the photographic evidence. That's something that could have and should have happened within days of the event, and would have but for the obstruction by the lacrosse team. At present, that's cause enough to be suspicious of every word the defense attorneys say.

    Sorry, correction. The middle photograph was not at 12:34, it was at 12:38 (as you said) leaving the 7 minute gap between the first outdoor photo and the second, not the second and the third. Sorry for the confusion.

    The liberal template for presumption of guilt in rape cases: Accusation: 80% Accused white: Add 5% Accuser black: Add 5% Accused rich: Add 5% Accuser poor: Add 5%

    Actually PB, You broke it down well for me, and it became a lot more clear to me. I do think that they will have more trouble explaining the 27 minute gap in the first half hour, then the 7 minute gap. BUt they do have a picture of her coming out of the bathroom smiling, so that could damage her story...Trust me I dont believe that this woman was raped in that house, but I do think when it becomes he said/she said that anything can happen.

    Logic? writes, "The liberal template for presumption of guilt in rape cases [is] [blah blah blah.] The predominance of self-described liberals defending the Duke students here certainly makes your placement of this Limbaughesque comment seem out of place. There are so many different types of liberals, after all. Maybe you need to tighten up your research a bit.

    PB, I think you have a good point. Maybe I am too much influenced on this issue by the Limbaughs, O'Reillies, (and on the flip side, the Nancy Graces)informing the public what constitutes liberal/conservative thinking. I am myself a Giuliani admirer, and thus, I am a man without a party, in many respects. You would probably agree that, for the most part, certain factions of the liberal base are the ones calling for the heads of the accused and the arrest of those not accused or (even)identified. I believe I can tell you in good conscince that I certainly do not know whether rape occurred and if I were seated on the jury, that I would try my damndest to reach a fair verdict based on the evidence offered. The prior comment arose from my disdain that the presumption of innocence is decried by so many at this point in time, and I unfairly cloaked all "liberals" with this attitude.

    Hi SupaMike, You wrote: "I do think that they will have more trouble explaining the 27 minute gap in the first half hour, then the 7 minute gap." Our alleged victim will be the one to determine which of the three gaps they need to explain... Whether she has any trouble doing that remains to be seen. I'm just trying to model the possibilities here, with malice toward none. I still consider the second dancer the Rosetta Stone of the case. The defense claims to have interviewed her at length. If they took something useful from that interview, they're not saying.

    The defense has said that the second dancer said that the complainant said nothing to her of being raped.

    Logic?, You wrote: "I am myself a Giuliani admirer, and thus, I am a man without a party, in many respects. You would probably agree that, for the most part, certain factions of the liberal base are the ones calling for the heads of the accused and the arrest of those not accused or (even)identified." I'm a big John Brown the Abolitionist fan myself. Don't know whether that makes me left wing or right wing. I think both the lacrosse players and the dancer deserve a fair trial, and that the lawyers for the players are transparently doing everything in their power to make that not possible. Are these lawyers "liberals?" I don't really care.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Police Attempt to Interview Pla (none / 0) (#24)
    by azbballfan on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 12:20:24 PM EST
    Sadly, the media circus is blurring the lines of the issues here. This case is about entitlement. First and foremost, this case is about a group of elitist young men planning a party with the intent of demeaning two ladies from a different class. This is the most damning point in this case for which all the young men are guilty - period. This case is a revealing damnation of the culture which promotes this elitist element on the Duke campus. The frenzied rush to dismiss this case is a thinly veiled attempt to deny the evil of this elitist culture. This case is also about race because the young men apparently asked for two black entertainers and were heard yelling racial epithets. Racism remains in North Carolina. Finally, this case is about a sex crime. Sadly, it is only because of the accused crime that these other grander issues are brought to light. I don't mean to belittle the horrible issue of rape, but sadly it will be difficult for us to know the facts of the crime because of the need to protect the larger evil - the need for a class of elite to maintain their entitlements. Sadly, there are those who wish to sweep this under the rug by claiming no crime was committed. We'll find out more in the coming weeks about whether any legal crime has been committed. We already know that social crimes were, and will continue to be, unless we discuss them. The hiring of a high powered attorney to protect the image of Duke University only excacerbates the problem. Come on Duke alumns, get your collective heads out of your collective you-know-whats and reach out to the Durham community. Be better examples by teaching your kids to reach out instead of playing the deny at all costs game.

    Logic? posted:
    The defense has said that the second dancer said that the complainant said nothing to her of being raped.
    The defense also is not telling us what the accuser did tell the second dancer. The Kroger security guard described her as "barely talking." Some rape victims tell the first person they see, some victims don't tell anyone, ever.

    Azb: What a crock. I don't know where to begin. First, there have been reports that the race of the dancers was not specified when the players called the escort service (whether true or not, I don't know). And to my knowledge, there is no report that the second dancer was black; in fact her 911 call seemed to suggest that only the complainaint was black. Second. Although questionable behaviour at best, most young don't hire strippers so that they can be demeaned. And except for this incident, how do you know anything about a Duke elitist culture? Have you talked with students? Have you visited? Have you done a study? Do you have any facts that back up this assertion? I eagerly await your response. Does racism exist? I'll give you that one. However, you should know that 80% of the team members were either from NY, NJ, or Conn. Southern boys don't play much lacrosse. Racism exists to some extent, but I certainly won't concede that this matters centers around race. As regards a frenzied rush to dismiss this case as a thinly veiled attempt to deny the evil of this elitist culture, it seems to me that only the defense attorneys are demanding a dismissal, and something tells me their objective has little to do with elite culture preservation. The DA in this case has pretty much said that come hell or or high water, somebody will be indicted, and as far as I know, he is the man in charge of dismissing or not dismissing the matter. I sort of regret my earlier post inclining all liberals toward a rush to judgment and a disdain for our precious constitutional principal of innocent until proven guilty. There are factions (like yourself) among so-called liberals who see alleged crimes of this sort as a perfect medium to get their panties in a wad and mount their soapboxes for whatever strident hate positions that they so ironically lovingly embrace. This is not a search for truth, in their eyes, but a graphic demonstration of the depravity of rich, elite, white males, the lowest of the lowest of creatures roaming the earth. Unlike you, I simply want the truth, settled in a court of law, based on the evidence. I would readily embrace a verdict of guilty if so found. Ask yourself, could you and the others crowding your soapbox readily embrace a verdict of not guilty? Or, is the trial just so much irrelevant distraction, anyway?

    Hi azbballfan , There are some things I don't think we know: We don't know what their intent was when they hired the dancers. We don't know if they requested Black women. One rumor was that they did, another rumor, from an anonymous email sent to a TV news station, was that they were angry that Black women were sent to the party. If they were surprised when Black women showed up , we don't know if made them happy, angry or if it didn't matter to them. The racial epithets, I agree could be a clue, but if she showed up beat up and too drunk to perform, their anger over that could have led to the slurs.

    Logic?, I think both dancers are Black:
    911 OPERATOR: Durham 911. Where`s your emergency? CALLER: Hi. I don`t know if this is an emergency or not necessarily, but I`m in Durham and I was driving down near Duke`s campus. And it`s me and my black girlfriend. And the guy -- there`s, like, a white guy by the Duke wall, and he was just hollered out (DELETED) to me. And I just don`t -- I didn`t know who to call!
    later in the same call...
    CALLER: It's right outside of 610 Buchanan [Blvd]. And I saw them all come out of, like, a big frat house, and me and my black girlfriend are walking by, and they called us (DELETED). (Sobbing).


    I meant to say I think the first 911 caller is Black. I don't know if she is the other dancer or not. The police have said that the second 911 caller, Kim, was the other dancer and they have also said she wasn't the other dancer.

    I took a different read on that call. When the caller kept referring to her "black" girlfriend, I assumed that was to explain why the hurling of a racial epithet was logical. I think that only a white woman would need repeatedly to explain that a black person was also involved. Who knows?

    I certainly thought that both sides had agreed that Kim was the other dancer. Early on, police were unsure, but the DA has now indicated that to be the case.

    Hi Logic, You wrote: "I simply want the truth, settled in a court of law, based on the evidence. I would readily embrace a verdict of guilty if so found. Ask yourself, could you and the others crowding your soapbox readily embrace a verdict of not guilty?" I don't know about "embracing" ANY verdict. You never know where they've been! Trials sometimes get at truths, sometimes they fail to. I favor getting jurors involved for the same reason the NBA has referees for all their games. I don't think anyone should quit worrying about injustice when the verdicts comes in.

    PB: Using Azb's logic, being a white male, the more loathsome something is, the more I embrace it.

    Logic?, Looks like I got it reversed. I thought they had admitted Kim was the second dancer and then (maybe to protect her privacy) retracted that statement.
    Michael, the police spokeswoman, was quoted in a published report saying the woman who drove to the Kroger store was the second exotic dancer hired by the lacrosse players. Earlier Michael told The Herald-Sun the driver was not the second dancer.


    Police and defense attorneys also acknowledge that Kim made the first call, as well.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Police Attempt to Interview Pla (none / 0) (#36)
    by azbballfan on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 01:35:40 PM EST
    It has been reported that the second dancer said black ladies were requested. The caller in the 911 call refers to the victim/accuser as her black friend - this does not suggest that the caller was not also black. There are corroborating reports of the atheletes using racial epithets from the neighbors. I wouldn't have mentioned the elistist Duke culture without having witnessed it firsthand. As is with any culture, I've known some Duke alumns who do not act elitist and am happy to call them friends. I have also known some Duke alumns who act as if they are somehow better than others because their parents paid good money to have them groomed at a private school. Sadly this case taints all those respecting good intentioned alumns (and student parents) with a broad brush. I'm just happy I didn't choose to go there. Just to be clear, 55% of the players come from NY, NJ, or Conneticut. Here's the complete breakdown. NY 17 36% Maryland 9 19% New Jersey 7 15% Virginia 4 9% Conneticut 2 4% PA 2 4% Texas 2 4% Delaware 1 2% Illinois 1 2% North Carolina 1 2% Ontario 1 2% 47 I mentioned racism as a part of this case, but did not mean to imply that it is the primary issue. No, it is secondary. The primary issue is the elitist attitude displayed by the players and the school. Unfortunately, Duke happens to be a private school, so the administration's primary duty is to protect their paying students and their parents. The initial wall of silence thrown around the school and the continued lack of cooperation of the administration with the case makes it worse. Kudos to Duke for immediately announcing outreach programs with the community - we'll wait to see if any real progress is made. Recently, the national media's coverage of this case has been one-sided against the accuser. Early on in this case, the DA cooperated with the press. As the defense attorneys blasted him and the national media quickly built pressure for him to press charges, he realized his error and has focused on the process of gathering evidence. The defense attorneys are leaking information to press the DA to dismiss charges which have never been brought. Furthermore they are asking him to stop the investigation. The DA realizes that despite the pressure from his constituents to press charges and let the courts take over, as soon as he does, he will have to release his evidence to the defense attorneys. When that happens, his constituents will lose the ability for justice to occur when leaks of partial evidence start being made to the press. Sadly, there are those who wish to sweep this under the rug by claiming no crime was committed. We may or may not find out more in the coming weeks about whether any legal crime has been committed. We do know that social crimes were committed, and will continue to be, unless we discuss them. The hiring of a high powered attorney to protect the image of Duke University only excacerbates the problem. Come on Duke alumns, get your collective heads out of your collective you-know-whats and reach out to the Durham community. Be better examples by teaching your kids to reach out instead of playing the deny at all costs game.

    Azb: not that it much matters, but you better redo your own math. Please state what the Duke administration either has done or has failed to do with respect to cooperating. I'd really like to know these facts. Yes, early on, the DA did frequently appear before the press, leaking evidence and categorically stating that there were (unidentified) guilty parties. Then, when the evidence began to shift, not so much. And yes, there are those who claim no crime was committed. They are the lacrosse team and their lawyers. How dare they? As a personal favor, when you post, please state facts (and not generalized opinions) so that this dialogue can better proceed. Thanks.

    Logic? Posted:
    Police and defense attorneys also acknowledge that Kim made the first call, as well
    . I know the defense has made the claim that they are "certain" it is the other dancer, but even though they claim to have interviewed "the other dancer" extensively, they never have said, "She says she made the call." Seems odd to me. They did a voice analysis from audio tapes. Did they forget to ask her? I may have missed it, but I've only see the police/DA say they don't know who made the first 911 call. They've talked to Kim, if it was Kim, I'd think they'd know she made the first call. If it is not Kim, it is totally odd the the caller would not have come forward by now.

    Anyone have a guess to as what Williams is saying here? 'The Abrams Report' for March 30
    ABRAMS: All right. Well, Mr. Williams, what about your client? Can you tell us what his take is on what happened at that party? WILLIAMS: He's told me he's totally shocked and appalled that these allegations have even been lodged, because in his heart of hearts and in his mind he knows that the allegations are false. ABRAMS: But she was--I mean what about the allegation that she left the house, that they then came back into the house, were convinced to come back, et cetera? WILLIAMS: OK. That I'm not going to comment on, because that didn't have anything to do with the second part of what may have occurred in the alleged attack.


    Azb writes: "I mentioned racism as a part of this case, but did not mean to imply that it is the primary issue. No, it is secondary. The primary issue is the elitist attitude displayed by the players and the school."
    I would have thought the primary issue was whether or not a crime had been committed. If elitism is primary, and race secondary, can we at least agree that the alleged crime is tertiary. Or are there even other paramount issues?

    So is this the Duke students story?: When the erotic dancers arrived, one of them (the complainent) was drunk and all beat up. She could hardly dance during the three minutes she tried to, because she was so impaired. After that, she and the other dancer (Kim) locked themselves in the bathroom for a while before being asked to leave, at which point they went to Kim's car, bringing their $800 with them. Realizing she was missing her shoe, the complainent returned to the house and, discovering the door locked, hollered to get let in before passing out on the porch. Shortly thereafter the team captain carried her back to the car and sent her on her way. Question: Where's her purse? How did her cell phone get to where it was found? And where was it found?

    The reporters have gotten facts wrong before, but for what it's worth: www.newsobserver.com/102/story/421799.html (had to disable links)
    Just moments after she and another exotic dancer started to perform, she said, men in the house started barking racial slurs. The two women, both black, stopped dancing. "We started to cry," she said. "We were so scared."
    www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/423125.html (had to disable links)
    According to court documents, two black women were hired from an escort service to dance for what turned out to be a lacrosse team party at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd.
    I'm still looking for a report that says the players' specifically asked for Black dancers.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Police Attempt to Interview Pla (none / 0) (#43)
    by azbballfan on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:33:15 PM EST
    logic, You stated that the DA leaked information. Please let us know what he "leaked". Also please keep in mind that the police need to allow the public access to their records. As far as I know, someone got their hands on a search warrant which included witness testimony to justify the warrant. Is merely serving the warrant "leaking"? Mathwise - lets see, 17 players from NY, 7 from NJ and 2 from Conn. 17 + 7 + 2 = 26. Now stay with me here, but 26/47 = 55%!! Finally, you erroneously imply that I: 1) am liberal and 2) don't want justice. Actually, what I meant to say is that regardless of whether a sex crime was committed, a crime against society was. Young men who hire two strippers to perform acts on each other in a group setting have the intention of demeaning the women. If it wasn't demeaning, why did they chose to hire someone instead of asking some of their gal friends to do this? While it's improper to legislate against the behavior of the young gents, it is proper to condemn it. You imply you want justice. All you really want is for the evidence to be used to convict or prove innocence. Certainly it will be difficult to prove there was much going on that could be considered innocent. By the way - the university waited too long to take action. They should have applied pressure for the players to cooperate with authorities before seeking representation from a team of lawyers. Realizing their mistake, they suspended the team. They still can suspend the other players involved. They don't because they don't want to get sued.

    To: azbballfan This case, sadly is not about the alleged rape any more.....it quickly became a vehicle to advance agendas. I personally blame the DA for running his mouth off before gathering all the evidence. As I ahve stated before, he has done a great disservice to all, including the alleged victim. I am for justice and honesty. I have written a few comments questioning the rape (the minority at the time)because you have to question both sides of a he said/she said story and each party's credibility. If a rape occurred they should fry the rapist. If it turns out that she lied, then they should fry her for the disservice she has done to all past and future real rape victims. The alleged rape itself has nothing to do with elistism, entitlement or Duke. Truly, the only remotely possible way Duke comes into this fray is through the DA and whether he is influenced one way or the other by it. Rich people go to every school. You want to see rich elitism go check out Rollins College in Florida. Duke's elitism has more to do with its academic prowess, both graduate (medical/law) and undergraduate, than wealth. (Harvard is the Duke of the North). If one is accepted to Duke it is 95% of the time because of academics (every school has its dad donated type students) and Duke will find a way to help you pay for it, if you cannot. (i.e., my roommate was dirt poor from tennessee and brilliant..Duke helped him with financial aid and even helped him get grants from non-Duke TN sources). Regardless of wealth, elitism exists at every top university (Duke is no. 3) as well as between rivalries (i.e., Stanford v. Cal or Georgia v. Georgia Tech or ASU v. UA). Almost 19,000 kids applied to Duke this year for 2000 spots, thus 17k will be rejected. I cannot begin to count how many times I have told peole I graduated from Duke and the response is, "I applied there but didn't get in." Those who say it is about elitism and Duke are motivated by their own insecurities and jealousies. So get your collective insecure and envious heads out of your collective you-know-whats and face the reality of your own life and stop being a victim of society. Focus on the alleged facts of the case: woman, 3 men (not 46), party, drinking, alleged-rape. All else is irrelevant in a court of law.

    Role Of Second Dancer
    Defense attorneys say they can prove the other dancer inside the house is the same person who claimed she was just passing by on a 911 call -- a claim verified by WRAL.
    The second dancer, who met the victim for the first time that night at 610 North Buchanan, also was on another 911 call that night. Her voice is barely audible in the background of the call, in which she tells the security guard her name is Kim and possibly more.
    Durham police have interviewed Kim, but they will not say if corroborates the victim's story.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Police Attempt to Interview Pla (none / 0) (#46)
    by azbballfan on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 03:10:45 PM EST
    logic, I'm glad you're a proud Duke alumn. Personally, I'm a proud alumn of another elite school. I happened to also live in the athelete dorms my freshman year and had an opportunity to get to know some. As a student, I saw inappropriate behavior and heard of criminal type behavior. As an alumn and parent, I hope it doesn't get out of hand. If this were to happen to my school, my University would apply as much pressure to bear as possible to force the student atheletes to cooperate with the authorities until the issue was resolved. The students residing at the house involved should have been suspended from the school immediately. By not acting aggressively to resolve the charges of sexual misconduct, the university has allowed the issue to become greater.

    The linked commentary will stoke a few fires.... Azb....you are an alumn of another elite schoool? So by definition, you must be wealthy, arrogant and elitist.
    As a student, I saw inappropriate behavior and heard of criminal type behavior
    I don't know if you are from AZ, but if you want to see inappropriate behavior go to AZ State or Arizona. For a watered down verison of what the campus and surrounding scene is like just rent any Girls-Gone-Wild. Those schools should be proud as they are represented very well and very often. My Point: you cannot single out athletes, that is flat out denial of the way of today's college life on and off campus....more and more off campus to be out of reach of the school. [Ed. links must be in html format or they skew the site. Instructions are in comment box. URLs not in html format will be deleted. We fixed this one.]

    wral.com
    Attorney Bill Thomas said Saturday a member of the defense team had interviewed the other dancer who performed that night, and that she "has stated point blank she does not believe this allegation."
    On what does she base her opinion? Can she corroborate the timeline in the time stamped photos? Does she have the women driving off at 12:41, twelve minutes before she made the 911 call? Does she recall the complaintant painting her fingernails in the bathroom? Can she account for the complaintat's whereabouts from the time they first entered the house until they arrived at Krogers?

    Imho, You asked about this one....
    ABRAMS: But she was--I mean what about the allegation that she left the house, that they then came back into the house, were convinced to come back, et cetera? WILLIAMS: OK. That I'm not going to comment on, because that didn't have anything to do with the second part of what may have occurred in the alleged attack.
    I do think that this is one of those important questions that shouldn't be let go of. Why don't the defense attorneys want to talk about the question of whether the women re-entered the house more than once? Bissey and the complainent both say it happened. The complainent says it happened immediately before she was raped. Why is the incident invisible in the defense attorneys' timeline?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Police Attempt to Interview Pla (none / 0) (#50)
    by azbballfan on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 05:34:10 PM EST
    logic (should I say, Juan?) Touche about my reference to an elite school. Actually, I too, was referencing the academic nature of the school - it actually rejects more applications than Duke and maintains a low pass-through rate to make the degree signify successfully competing for something. However, my school alma mater is public and therefore avoids many of the pitfalls of elitism suggested by private club-like cultures. Alas, I do live in Arizona and can attest to your references to a girls-gone-wild atmosphere at ASU. The new President (Crowe, from Columbia) is cracking down on the student behavior and is taking great strides to improve the reputation and quality of the university. (While I do currently live in Arizona, I did not attend either school.) It's not the partying atmosphere that is damning in this case. Hey, I'm sure they let off a little steam over with some co-ed nakedness at Harvard as well, it's just less likely to be made into a video (well, unless Halle's included). Actually, I think a couple of girls-gone-wild videos were filmed in Tempe using ASU co-eds. At least the ASU students were knowingly and willingly participating. The Duke President was made aware of an alleged sex crime on property owned by Duke. The students had arranged a private sex show. There is evidence of aggression. There are recorded incidents of those students being involved in other inappropriate acts of aggression. The University should have immediately suspended those players residing at the alleged crime scene until the police investigation was complete and charges were brought. The University is hiding behind the veil of doing the absolute minimum of what is legally and ethically required.

    boys will be boys? While I hope the Duke boys turn out to be not guilty of rape, their behavior is worthy of condemnation. White boys with more money than those in the neighboring community get drunk and invite poor (black)women to dance nearly naked for money. They insult the women, invite them for group sex, pay (or not) for the sex. That is not the behavior we want our college boys to learn is OK - or to model for others. We should hope they would learn better, either with the pressure of the legal system (via a rape accusation) or through the strong direction of the college and sports administration at Duke.

    Kalidoggie posted:
    The linked commentary will stoke a few fires....
    I think JONNA SPILBOR needs to get up to speed on the case before writing about it. From her article:
    Finally, one would think that even if the alleged victim could not picture or describe her attackers offhand, at least a photo lineup would result in a positive identification -- if not of all three, then at least one.
    It seems there has been a photo identification: mercurynews.com
    Meanwhile, defense lawyers have yet to receive from Nifong copies of a video and a report of the process investigators used for the woman to identify players she has accused of attacking her. "We've been told there is a video of the identification process, and in my opinion we should have it by now," Sutton said.
    From her article:
    In addition to the negative DNA test, there is additional exculpatory evidence here. This week, pictures of the alleged victim surfaced that may indicate that she had suffered injuries to her body already - the same injuries for which she claims the three attackers were responsible.
    As far as I know the only people, besides the defense, who have seen the photos are journalists. Have they turned this "exculpatory evidence" over to Nifong so he can consider it?

    Exclusive: Accuser in Duke Rape Case May Have Been Drugged WNCN-TV 2:39 p.m. EDT April 15, 2006
    DURHAM, N.C. - An unnamed source close to the investigation of a reported rape near the Duke University campus has told NBC 17 News that someone might have drugged the accuser the night she claims three lacrosse members raped her. "She may have been slipped a date-rape drug in a mixed drink she was given by one of the lacrosse players shortly after she arrived,? the source told NBC 17 late Friday. "Her condition is said to have changed dramatically in a short period of time, from being completely sober on arrival to passing out on the floor in a short period of time."
    If this report is accurate, it could be coming from the second dancer. The security guard said she did not smell alcohol on the accuser.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Police Attempt to Interview Pla (none / 0) (#54)
    by Lora on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:10:28 PM EST
    Photos? What about the whole camera, or cameras? My understanding is that in the beginning police were looking for any cameras that might have pictures of the party. Why are they not in police possession? Why just "photos?" What else is on those cameras?

    "She may have been slipped a date-rape drug in a mixed drink she was given by one of the lacrosse players shortly after she arrived,? the source told NBC 17 late Friday.
    If you aren't amused at all by the unrelenting shamelessness of the free press at work, you might not be living in the right country. The Duke lawyers are finally getting paid back for all that hard work keeping "facts" from becoming the controlling influence on public opinion. In lieu of facts, it is human nature to fill the gaps with rumors. So the complainent wasn't actually impaired until after they slipped her a drink? Why didn't the lawyers mention that? Lora, You wrote: Why just "photos?" What else is on those cameras? The cameras, if undoctored, have the clocks in them which could have enabled the police to establish a trustworthy timeline of events. We can only make guesses as to why establishing a trustworthy timeline of events was not in the players' best interest. It's the kind of information lawyer's usually try to keep to themselves.

    from search warrant:
    One male stated to the women "I'm gonna shove this up you" while hlding a broomstick up in the air so they could see it.
    from Newsweek.com:
    But by 12:03, the mood has turned: in a photo, the women are standing and the second stripper appears to be reaching toward the guys, all of whom have lost their smiles. She slaps one of them for suggesting the alleged victim use a broom as a sex toy, according to Ekstrand.
    From Charlotte.com:
    During this time, Cheshire told the newspaper, the women locked themselves in a bathroom while one of the captains tried to persuade them to continue the show. Some players accused the women of pocketing the $800 fee and not performing. The dancers then left the house, he said
    From Newsweek.com:
    Then both women lock themselves in the bathroom, Ekstrand details. The partygoers get nervous about what the women are up to and start slipping money under the door asking them to leave, says Bill Thomas, a lawyer who represents one of the captains.


    supamike posted:
    BUt they do have a picture of her coming out of the bathroom smiling, so that could damage her story...Trust me I dont believe that this woman was raped in that house, but I do think when it becomes he said/she said that anything can happen.
    According to the defense timeline, the smiling photo was taken at the back door. The attorneys claim it was taken after she had been to the car and had gone back inside to retrieve her purse. Once back outside she tried to get back into the house to get her shoe. They locked her out.

    newsweek.com
    The second woman supports the partygoers' story, says Thomas, who says he has seen a summary of an interview with her conducted by a member of the defense team. "Their versions are basically identical," he says. But Mark Simeon, an attorney for the second dancer, tells NEWSWEEK that Thomas's claim is not accurate. "She rejects the notion that she agrees with their timeline. I've shown their story line to my client, and she says there's a lot that's wrong with it. From the beginning, she has been cooperating fully with [Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong] and the police, and she looks forward to testifying truthfully at the trial." Thomas replies, "She has given us several statements, so I don't see any room for her to change her story now simply because she has a lawyer speaking for her." Nifong could not be reached for comment.


    Theory of possible outcome...talk amongst yourselves. player(s) indicted but charges eventually dropped either because woman will no longer cooperate or just wants to move on with life or some other explanation (i.e., Kobe case), or she recants in a way that keeps her victimhood (needs rehab, or raped in the past and has psychological issue..focus is still the damaging effects of rape, which our society must address). Basis for this outcome: Jesse Jackson's offer could be the result of a little backroom peddling/extortion for which he is notorious. He got together with Duke or Bennett and said that he will help ease the tensions of this situation but wants x dollars donated to Rainbow Coalition for RC and to fund an educational trust for her regardless of what happens. I will ease the racial tensions and case goes away...everyone wins. This would be a safe, smooth and, quite frankly, a very smart move by him because there is enough reasonable doubt (in both directions)for him to look good regardless of the outcome, get more funding and help improve the girls life. Lesson: applicable to rape or no rape....DAs should keep their months when it comes to sexual cases until they have solidifed their case or dropped it. NOTE: This theory is without opinion of whether it happened or not.

    From Durham News & Observer: Ted Vaden, Staff Writer The calls and e-mails started pouring in within hours of the DNA report last Monday. The words differed, but the message was the same: When is The News & Observer going to 'fess up that it got the Duke sexual assault story wrong? "How about a front-page apology to restore some of the damaged reputation your newspaper has caused for jumping to conclusions and assuming guilt!" one reader wrote. I've had concerns about the coverage, too, which I've expressed in a previous column, and will elaborate on below. But we need to recognize several things. One is that the story didn't conclude with the disclosure last week, by lawyers for Duke lacrosse players, that the results of all 46 players tested didn't link them to the alleged rape on March 13. Durham DA Mike Nifong is continuing the investigation. Another is that The N&O didn't confect this story. The paper was the first to report that DNA tests had been ordered, but Nifong instigated that action. Much of the coverage since has been about developments in the case -- rallies and protests by residents, Nifong's very public insistence that a crime occurred, the players' lawyers' equally vehement claims of innocence, Duke's actions against the team and coach. In other words, reporting the news. And the news has been difficult to report, because the sources of information have been stingy. After his initial outbursts, Nifong seized up and wouldn't talk to reporters. He and the players' lawyers discussed but didn't release the DNA reports, the lawyers discussed but didn't release party photos that supposedly support the players. The players, all 47 of them, won't talk. Duke has been tight-lipped.