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Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic

Seymour Hersh, whose new article on Bush formulating a plan to attack Iran I wrote about yesterday, was on CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer this morning.

Crooks and Liars has the video.

Check out these transcript highlights (received by e-mail from the show):

Why Hersh believes Bush feels compelled to attack Iran

HERSH: The word I hear is messianic. He thinks, as I wrote, that he's the only one now who will have the courage to do it. He's politically free. I don't think he's overwhelmingly concerned about the '06 elections, congressional elections. I think he really thinks he has a chance, and this is going to be his mission.

Is the U.S. capable of attacking Iran now?

BLITZER: Well, what do you think? Given the enormous military headaches the United States now has in Iraq, does the U.S. military have the wherewithal to launch another preemptive strike, this time against Iran?

HERSH: Oh, sure. We have plenty of air power. We can do it. We have great precision bombings. There's been a lot of planning going on. It's more than planning, it's operational planning. It's beyond contingency planning. There's serious, specific plans. Nobody's made a decision yet. There hasn't been a warning order or an execute order. But the planning's gotten much more intense and much more focused.

Some members of Bush's Administration may resign over Iran plans:

BLITZER: And you're saying that some senior military officers are prepared to resign?

HERSH: I'm saying that, if this isn't walked back and if the president isn't told that you cannot do it -- and once the chairman of the joint chiefs or some senior members of the military say to the president, let's get this nuclear option off the table, it will be taken off. He will not defy the military in a formal report. Unless something specific is told to the White House that you've got to drop this dream of a nuclear option -- and that's exactly the issue I'm talking about -- people have said to me that they would resign.

When pressed for names, Hersh refused:

HERSH: You know why? Because this is a punitive government right now. This is a government that pretty much has its back against the wall, as you've been saying all morning, in Iraq.

And in the military -- you know, one thing about our military is they're very loyal to the president, but they're getting to the edge. They're getting to the edge with not only Rumsfeld but also with Cheney and the president.

What we should be doing instead:

HERSH: The critical point, it seems to me, is that we're not talking. This president is not talking to the Iranians. They are trying very hard to make contact, I can assure you of that, in many different forms.

....And there's no public pressure on the White House to start bilateral talks. And that's what amazes everybody. When I was in Vienna, seeing officials of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the one thing they all said is everybody knows Iran is trying to do something. They're cheating. They're not near. There's plenty of time. And instead of talking about bombing, let's talk about talking.

Update: Here's a briefing paper on the consequences of war in Iraq. The conclusion:

A US military attack on Iranian nuclear infrastructure would be the start of a protracted military confrontation that would probably involve Iraq, Israel and Lebanon as well as the United States and Iran, with the possibility of west Gulf states being involved as well. An attack by Israel, although initially on a smaller scale, would almost certainly escalate to involve the United States, and would also mark the start of a protracted conflict.

Although an attack by either state could seriously damage Iran's nuclear development potential, numerous responses would be possible making a protracted and highly unstable conflict virtually certain. Moreover, Iran would be expected to withdraw from the Non-Proliferation Treaty and engage in a nuclear weapons programme as rapidly as possible. This would lead to further military action against Iran, establishing a highly dangerous cycle of violence.

The termination of the Saddam Hussein regime was expected to bring about a free-market client state in Iraq. Instead it has produced a deeply unstable and costly conflict with no end in sight. That may not prevent a US or an Israeli attack on Iran even though it should be expected that the consequences would be substantially greater. What this analysis does conclude is that a military response to the current crisis in relations with Iran is a particularly dangerous option and should not be considered further - alternative approaches must be sought, however difficult these may be.

[hat tip Susan M.]

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    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#1)
    by theologicus on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 11:32:01 AM EST
    Of course, it's absolutely irrational, but these days that doesn't mean it won't happen. The Fairfield air base in the UK provides the clue. Paul Rogers of the Oxford Research Group explains how we can know if we're there yet. The Countdown to War The need for an element of surprise in any attack on Iran makes it difficult to gauge exactly when it might be imminent. Fairford offers the possibility of two tangible advance signals. The first is a more coordinated presence of B-2s at the base. It is probable that training for an attack would involve deployments of B-2 aircraft there for a few days at a time, to familiarise air and ground crew with the details of combat operations from a new base. It is likely that the first such exercise took place last week when three B-2s flew into Fairford within a few days in what appears to be the first orchestrated deployment of this kind. This may well be an indicator of training now underway. The second signal is a sudden increase in base security at Fairford, including the policing of an extended cordon and closure of local roads to minimise any external observation of activities there. If and when that happens, the countdown to war with Iran will almost certainly be well underway. The moment may arrive at any time in the next year or more, quite possibly when it is least expected.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 11:37:51 AM EST
    Congress has the power and responsibility to declare war, although they've abrogated their responsibilities for many decades now. Question: Does Congress have the power to declare NOT-war?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 11:44:21 AM EST
    Wow... Good question, Libby. Over to you, lawyers?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#5)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 11:56:44 AM EST
    These scum will try to engineer some kind of "incident"; some "moment of crisis" and use thier Goebbelian network of the usual Fox,talk radio etc suspects in an attempt to galvanize the hoi polloi. The only "preempting" that should be happening is relentlessly exposing these disgusting traitors for what they are; day in and day out.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 11:57:42 AM EST
    It just keeps getting harder, doesn't it narius?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 11:58:59 AM EST
    Sy Hersh hasn't been wrong about these shmendricks yet. On the other hand, Shrub and darth dickie are 0-everything. Last I looked, England is still a Sovereign Country. Just because they're overstimulated, undereducated and over there doesn't mean they've got to give them permission to use their airfields They could turn the tables They don't have to give these nitwits permission to use their Airspace. That would fix their wagons. Besides, Jack Straw was on the BBC saying the notion of going nuke is nuts. The rest of the world could just tell shrub and darth to go screw themselves. A move that's long overdue in my book.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#8)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 12:17:09 PM EST
    I can hear the Otto from A Fish Called Wanda anti-English rants from the wingnuts now: "just sitting there with thier hair clenched waiting for the weekend so they can dress up like ballerinas and whip themselves into a frenzy.."

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 12:27:14 PM EST
    No doubt. Misquoting and misunderstanding Nietzsche all the while. Unfortunately, it has been my experience and my observation that what does not kill them only makes them dumber.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 12:34:53 PM EST
    That why they refuse to believe in evolution? ;-/

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 12:37:31 PM EST
    Posted by narius April 9, 2006 12:51 PM
    Iran is much more logical target than Iraq. We know Iran has a program to make nuclear weapons. May be we should go in and take out those facilities, if we know where they are. The nation we *should* attack the most is North Korea.
    Narius, I see you're undecided and conflicted. At times like this, remember the words of the prophet Tommy. Go to the mirror, boy.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 12:38:32 PM EST
    I'd like to know where Sey gets his info. He did ground breaking details in the 'Dark Side of Camelot' but I always wondered what made is source simply not stand out.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#13)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 12:44:18 PM EST
    How do we remove a President and a Vice President who happen to be simultaneously (mentally) incapacitated? That situation isn't covered by Amendment XXV.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 12:44:57 PM EST
    You'll have to excuse me, but with your typos and grammatical errors, I'm afraid neither one of us knows what the hell you're talking about.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 02:22:06 PM EST
    Theologicus--I just came here to post a direct link to Paul Rogers' informative briefing paper about the consequences of the US conducting such a war in Iran (Feb. 2006) available in pdf format. I suggest that everyone else who hasn't read it yet download and read it. Senator Joe Biden, who also confirmed that he plans to run for president in 2008, expressed views suggesting that he has been briefed about such consequences in his appearance on Friday night's Real Time with Bill Maher. I am less interested in focusing on the possible "messianic" causes of President Bush's misguided foreign and domestic policies (his putative deluded notion that he serves his own God's will [which I do not know if even he himself sincerely believes, as opposed to merely continually mouthing demogogic rhetorical lip service to it]) or the impact of his wishful-thinking successes on his presidential "legacy." I am far more concerned about the consequences of such insane policies for everyone else, their legacy for the rest of humanity (the end of life as we know it): everyday people who actually live and want to continue living in the real world. I really don't care about him or what motivates him so much as about the dangers that he poses. He really needs to be stopped. As Joe Biden argued Friday night, the only people who can stop him are really American citizens, who really need to rise up against what is going on, en masse, and now. Otherwise, the insanity will just continue, perhaps even long after his presidency.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 02:55:06 PM EST
    One scary possibility is that a massive non-nuclear bombing attack on Iran might be perceived as a sane compromise.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 03:07:37 PM EST
    By whom? The thank God he didn't go nuclear, he's only conventionally insane set?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 03:21:53 PM EST
    I don't think it's messianism (though this explanation is politically convenient for Bush). I think it's the 2006 election. Bush is desperately betting that a new war will whip up a new wave of "patriotism" that will save the Republican's sorry ass in 2006. (I'm not saying that this calculation is necessarily right.) Or maybe he's being far more selfish and thinking only of saving his own hide through a wag-the-dog scenario... I don't buy the messianic schtick for one second.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 03:27:20 PM EST
    His old man and Scowcroft,(or,this years model of Frank Sturgis and Howard Hunt), need to take him out to the wood shed. So to speak.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 03:43:32 PM EST
    One key response from Iran would be a determination to reconstruct a nuclear programme and develop it rapidly into a nuclear weapons capability, with this accompanied by withdrawal from the Non-Proliferation Treaty. This would require further attacks. A military operation against Iran would not, therefore, be a short-term matter but would set in motion a complex and long-lasting confrontation. It follows that military action should be firmly ruled out and alternative strategies developed.
    From the briefing paper cited above. But a long drawn out war is what the neocons want. There will be a never ending series of wars fought for the globe's resources. This is but the first round. The rhetoric must be pumped up to frighten the public. If the usual corporate media was to decide not to go along, that is the only thing that would stop this. I don't think its too crazy to believe that there will be an attack on US interests, preferebly here in the US from the neocons perspective, that can readily be attributed, rightly or wrongly, to Iran. So if it were to occur, it must occur relatively close to the election so that the true underlying causes cannot be found out in time to affect the election. I have finished rereading Fromm's escape from freedom. Read it when I was in my 20's. There is little doubt that people, be it Americans, Germans, Iranians etc want above all else to feel safe and connected. Their desire for freedom is a distant choice. So I think the America people's response to another attack will be to rally around the president so that their fear can be mitagted by the erronous belief that the strong men in charge will protect them from the evil. To protest would be to invite doubt and fear into their lives which the masses will not do. So for Biden to say that it is the people who must stop this reaks of his normal hypocrisy. Biden wants out of Iraq as long as our "long term interests" remain intact. Remember, Bush is just the Carter Doctrine on steroids. If anyone thinks we are pulling out of Iraq anytime soon you're nuts. The one thing tht might stop it is a draft, and that wouldn't do it if the attack by "Iran" was massive enough to instill the requisite amount of fear. Within 10 years the ME will be a radioactive Sand Dune, where the oil workers will have to wear protective clothing 24/7. Hey we were willing to wipe out the Indians for their land, whats a little Muslim blood for oil?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 04:03:36 PM EST
    More like blood + grotesque profit margins + expendable labor + cavalier attitude towards conservation for oil.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 04:23:31 PM EST
    Within 10 years the ME will be a radioactive Sand Dune, where the oil workers will have to wear protective clothing 24/7. Hey we were willing to wipe out the Indians for their land, whats a little Muslim blood for oil?
    What "oil?" You mean the same radioactive oil that the workers would need protection from 24/7? That oil? Come on! Everyone (if they weren't already dying in hospices from various kinds of cancer) would be wearing "protective clothing 24/7" if they even had oil to put into their cars. The cars would be radioactive. Biden was pointing out that it wouldn't be big business or other politically-vested special interests that would be rising up against President Bush. Who does that leave? That leaves the American public. And if it "en masse" lacks courage and conscience, as "the masses" generally do, then that leaves no one to stop the Bush administration's insane plans and probably not enough opposition to the Republican stronghold on Congress and Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld to overturn anything already in the works in 2006 or 2008. So where does that leave us? With the status quo--that is, plans to invade Iran (and North Korea next--the third member of the so-called "Axis of Evil"), and the likelihood of even larger-scale terrorist attacks that could easily dwarf what happened on 9/11 (biological and chemical attacks on water supplies, mass transit, airports and other transportation facilities, shopping malls, schools, and so on). That wouldn't frighten the masses? Just imagining what might happen brings to mind the most dire of Hollywood disaster movies. What if any of GWB's post-Iraq war plans actually occur? What's a little conscious acknowledgment of fear in such a scenario? No matter what one's "political persuasion," it's really time to face facts folks before it's too late to face anything. Speaking of "hypocrisy": Somehow it seems a wee bit hypocritical for the United States, the world's nuclear superpower, to threaten actually to use a "tactical nuclear weapon" to prevent another country from developing nuclear weapons. As even Jack Straw said, such reported plans are just plain "nuts."

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 04:36:02 PM EST
    Oh--and I forgot to mention the potential terrorist deployment of "dirty bombs" as well as biological and chemical agents who knows where when. (Does anyone watch 24?) What's some "clean" nuclear energy in Iran in what might be monitored sites (if it might be developed for peaceful purposes--though every does doubt that) compared to the dirty bombs that terrorists retaliating against such US-led war in Iraq etc. might lead to? As the briefing paper says, there are also unforeseen and unpredictable consequences that might occur that could be even worse than the planned-for predicted ones. The US's own (at least public) track record in predicting the reactions to and outcomes of its recent wars (Vietnam Conflict as well as current "Operation Freedom") is not very impressive.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 04:43:10 PM EST
    Everyone (if they weren't already dying in hospices from various kinds of cancer) would be wearing "protective clothing 24/7" if they even had oil to put into their cars. The cars would be radioactive.
    The oil is underground, deep underground so its unlikely to be radioactive.
    Biden was pointing out that it wouldn't be big business or other politically-vested special interests that would be rising up against President Bush.
    I'll have to send Biden a note of thanks for that profound glimpse into the obvious.
    That wouldn't frighten the masses?
    Of course it would, thats the plan. The real point is that the masses scared out of their wits will not see that it was our leaders who got us there. The second point is that an attack by "iran" would be convienent before the election.
    What's a little conscious acknowledgment of fear in such a scenario? No matter what one's "political persuasion," it's really time to face facts folks before it's too late to face anything.
    \\ Again the real point is that the situation will be manipulated to produce that fear, even if it means "allowing" or provoking an attack. It doesn't matter now that the ball is rolling, the Dems and the Repubs will get us to the same point. If you want it to stop, you have support a more fundamental change in politics in this country and not look to a corporate whore like Biden for advice. So until there's a couple of million people in the street protesting, you can forget change. With the people running this country you can be sure that the masses will be whipped up into a frenzy in a way that promotes the leaders interests. Frankly, i see no way out of this mess. Its the 1860's with nukes.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#25)
    by wg on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 09:09:41 PM EST
    I have a better question. Say George loses his marbles one day completely (out of frustration, stress or whatever) and commanded by his inner voices orders his people to annihilate Iran. Because God told him so when he was praying in the morning. What constitutional mechanism would permit somebody to lock him up before he pushes that button?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 11:58:55 PM EST
    Bush is in the war starting business, not the war ending business. He's already made that clear in a public forum.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 12:37:29 AM EST
    What constitutional mechanism would permit somebody to lock him up before he pushes that button? The needs of law enforcement are constantly changing, and Smith & Wesson is always developing sophisticated new tools to answer them.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 01:47:46 AM EST
    A couple other perspectives of interest: "Apocalypse Now," by journalist Will Thomas "Scientists find Chernobyl research efforts minimal; future studies valuable for 'dirty bomb' threats":
    Their research has provided the most comprehensive studies on the survival and reproductive consequences of low-level radiation in natural populations. Of particular note is the suggestion that mutations may be exported out of the contaminated zones and transferred to individuals that are not otherwise exposed to radiation. "Our work indicates that the worst is yet to come in the human population," Mousseau said. "The consequences for generations down the line could be greater than what we've seen so far."
    The lack of research may be caused, in part, because of a lack of investment. The researchers say that Chernobyl studies have attracted only about $10 million in research funding internationally, compared with $100 billion in funding for many types of research, including military studies, after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States. However, the international scientific community must do more, Mousseau said, because of the growing interest in building nuclear power plants as oil reserves dwindle and global warming increases, the potential use of nuclear weapons in war and the threat of "dirty bombs."
    Re: the effects of nuclear fallout on oil reserves etc.--everything above ground (all forms of life, e.g.) would be contaminated by microscopic radioactive dust. My husband is a professor of physical chemistry and physics with a Ph.D. from Yale (unfortunately also GWB's alma mater); one of his specialties is nuclear radiation science. When I asked him later about whether the oil itself (say running through pipelines above ground in areas of the Middle East after a nuclear strike) would be affected by radiation fallout, he said, probably not. But regarding any use of nuclear weapons, his response, like most sensible laypeople as well as scientists, is "it's crazy to think of using nuclear weapons at all"; it's just plain "unthinkable." So what are these lunatics in our government thinking? Or, are they thinking? Or, to put it another way, what are they thinking with?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:21:36 AM EST
    How do we remove a President and a Vice President who happen to be simultaneously (mentally) incapacitated? That situation isn't covered by Amendment XXV.
    Proving (mental) incapacitation is perhaps more unwieldy than just proving that they have committed impeachable offenses in the case of these two men. So: Two words (twice): Impeach Bush Impeach Cheney Third little words: Vote To Impeach

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 04:12:17 AM EST
    There has to be leadership, coming from someone in order for enough people to rise up. Most of the Western governments when forced into a corner will back Bush regardless of what a few of its citizens say. Where is the leadership within the US going to come from? There is no opposition party The corporate media .. well do I have to say anything. Religous leaders as a group, with notable exceptions, can even find the nerve to stand up against torture. There is no way the average person who doesn't follow the news in great detail is going to have the knowledge, In addition the average person is not going to believe without overwhelming evidence presented by people they believe that the present administration is as bad as it is. Finally why are the masses going to rise up when there is no immediate tangible consequence affecting them. The "people" have not risen up against torture, spying, non-existant reasons for war etc etc. As soon as there were significant demonstrations within the US, there would be another attack that could be blamed on the Muslims that would increase the fear and therefore support for the administration. The German people did not rise up against Hitler, do you really think that Bush, Cheney and the corporate forces who drive things are any less adept at manipulating the people. Yes the people are our only hope and that is why there is none. You're asking for something that can't happen. One of the effects of globalization will be the unification of economic policy across and between governments. This war in Iraq/Iran is an economic war for scarce resources. The governments will stick together. Maybe one major country will stand up to the US. China?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 04:21:56 AM EST
    GW is little more than a useful idiot to the handful of neocons who are actually running the country. You're dead-on when you say they use fear to further their cause. They know this to be one way to "control the masses" and another is to use religion. They don't have to be religious themselves, but they know it's necessary to have the appearance of being religious. For me, the goofy and seemingly contradictory way they governed and 'saber-rattled' confused me until I became familiar with the particular philosophy they were following. If you read Leo Strauss and Machiavelli everything will become crystal clear as to their intentions at the moment and their ultimate goals. For example, no one seems to believe it significant that the military bases in Iraq were built in the days and weeks following the war for permanent rather than temporary use. And, as someone mentioned above, you will see after reading Strauss & Machiavelli that they do, in fact, believe in perpetual war. As a matter of fact, to them peace is dangerous to their cause, i.e. the people begin to concentrate on the economy, civil rights, etc. Paul Wolfowitz, who many have said to be the "architect" of the war in Iraq, sat at the feet of Strauss and received his doctorate under him. I don't expect Bush to ever leave Iraq and, frankly, I don't expect him to leave the Oval office willingly. I believe he will cook up a national emergency in order to have the Constitution "suspended" and martial law declared.....maybe this year. After all, Bush can't afford to have Democrats take over and begin poring over the incriminating documents that could quite possibly land him in a Federal prison.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#33)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:52:41 AM EST
    On the fundamental issues such as war in the ME there is no difference, in substance or policy only in style and timing. The failure to see this brings a big smile to every corporate boardroom in America. But even more important it maintains the status quo and prevents true fundamental change. Do you honestly think that electing these democrats will have any substantive effect on the major issues. The Dems will do some things that will lull the masses back to sleep, while the real problems roll on. carter advocated using troops in the ME to keep the oil going. Clinton lied about Saddam having WMDs just to keep the sanctions in place. Hillary, Biden, Kerrey all want the US out of Iraq but only if US interests are preserved. You actually going to fall for that. OK Charlie, just keep with the staus quo and watch the corporate whores currently elected or running continue to manipulate you and the country for their interets. To proclaim that we can't do any better and we have to work with what we have is the ultimate in surrender. They have won and will continue to win. Yeah the Dems may throw you some scraps but not much. What happened to the Dems support of labor? It was Clinton who sold out labor. So get up with the delusions. Thats what they want. Who gives a crap about Rove, he's only the front man, he has done his job by distracting good people like you away from the real dynamics underlying the forces driving politics in the 21th. My real point is that if you want change then you have to work for change not repaint the titanic. Don't underestimate the scope of the problem. To do so invites failure.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 07:09:16 AM EST
    soccerdad-I get your point, but you have to be kidding about this:
    Who gives a crap about Rove, he's only the front man,
    As you put it
    Don't underestimate the scope of the problem. To do so invites failure.
    Rove is not a front man. He lurks in the shadows and springs like a viper. A key part of the WH machine.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#35)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 07:54:02 AM EST
    The WH is a front for the real power in this country, you can get rid of Rove tomorrow and that won't change and the agenda for those who really control the political machines will not change. You will get a change in style not substance. Things have deteriorated politically in this country to the point where we will happily elect the "new centerist" Democrat who does not represent most average people in this country and think its progress. The people who wield the power must be careful not to hurt themselves as they laugh so hard at the sheer naivete of the masses.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 08:01:13 AM EST
    Do you honestly think that electing these democrats will have any substantive effect on the major issues. The Dems will do some things that will lull the masses back to sleep, while the real problems roll on. carter advocated using troops in the ME to keep the oil going. Clinton lied about Saddam having WMDs just to keep the sanctions in place. Hillary, Biden, Kerrey all want the US out of Iraq but only if US interests are preserved. You actually going to fall for that. OK Charlie, just keep with the staus quo and watch the corporate whores currently elected or running continue to manipulate you and the country for their interets. To proclaim that we can't do any better and we have to work with what we have is the ultimate in surrender. They have won and will continue to win. Yeah the Dems may throw you some scraps but not much. What happened to the Dems support of labor? It was Clinton who sold out labor. So get up with the delusions. Thats what they want. Who gives a crap about Rove, he's only the front man, he has done his job by distracting good people li
    ke you away from the real dynamics underlying the forces driving politics in the 21th. My real point is that if you want change then you have to work for change not repaint the titanic. Don't underestimate the scope of the problem. To do so invites failure
    As opposed to the victory voting for nader yielded us in 2000, eh? Karl says thanks. No, I honestly think that if we don't, flawed as they may be, there's no chance to stop the bleeding and it's pretty much game over. Fascism in the USA. How can I put this tactfully? GROW THE FCUK UP! If you wanna continue to be rovesputin's chump, that's your choice. Don't be draggin' the rest of us down with your sorry, schoolboy butt. As the man said, This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no foolin' around. I ain't got time for that now. This is the real world, sport. This is a real world situation. We're tryin' to save this Country from Fascism. We ain't got time for CBGBs and we sure as Hell ain't got time for your silly little games Hey, rovesputin may send you and glanton a well-deserved thank you card. After all, they couldn't have done it without ya.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 09:03:25 AM EST
    Nuking someone else's nukes to send a message about not tolerating nukes. Enough f*cking said. Okay, one more comment: HELP!!!

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#38)
    by wg on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 09:06:22 AM EST
    re: mental incapacitation. There is a proposal from the "Working Group on Presidential Disability" (??) to add
    mental examinations to the annual physical exam required of American presidents. Although mental illness can occur at any age, incidence of cognitive impairment increases with age. Therefore, at 60 years and older, world leaders should submit to an annual magnetic-resonance imaging scan and mini-mental status exam.
    Makes sense to me. I might add we should also require federal judges past 60 to submit to such examinations. They yield too much power and their capacity to do harm is too great to be careless here. The numbers are rather high, almost 1 in 3 people aged 65 to 74 show signs of cognitive impairment, this becomes 1 in 2 past 84. Needless to say this is true of judges too. Given that there is no mandatory retirement age for US judges and the fact that a vast majority of them stay in their jobs forever, the problem is urgent. (Average age of "senior" judges in this country is well past 70!)

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#39)
    by Slado on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 10:06:07 AM EST
    I've read some looney posts on this site but this one takes the cake. See what happens when PPJ doesn't hijack the thread and lets the lefty craziness build on itself. Impeachemnt, nuclear winter and Biden for president all in the same post. Wow.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 10:56:10 AM EST
    Susan Hollis Merritt, Thanks for the links, Susan. Very good and sobering article by Will Thomas:
    While a cowardly and comatose Congress continues to ignore what could be Bush's biggest folly, a panicked junta has already moved Burma's capital to remote Pyinmana, 200 miles to the north, after their Chinese allies warned of radioactive fallout from attacks on Iran's nuclear power reactors and production facilities dropping in deluges of radioactive rain over Rangoon. According to Wayne Madsen's intelligence review, "Thousands of government workers were given only two days' notice to pack up and leave Rangoon for the higher (and dryer) mountainous Pyinmana." Weather maps also predict a "hot" monsoon poisoning populations in Dhaka, Calcutta, Mumbai, Chennai, and Colombo. [www.waynemadsenreport.com] The prospect of this radioactive cloud crossing the Pacific to "bring the war home" to the United States does not faze White House fundamentalists personally protected by their own religious projections.


    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 02:37:21 PM EST
    Edger, Dadler; any of those who didn't read the earlier article yet: Perhaps at least if not even more sobering is Part I, with photos, previously published as "The Dangers of a Middle East Nuclear War" linked internally; here's the direct link: "The Dangers of a Middle East Nuclear War: New Pentagon Doctrine: Mini-Nukes are 'Safe for the Surrounding Civilian Population,'" by Michel Chossudovsky (February 17, 2006) as previously posted on GlobalResearch.ca.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 02:41:09 PM EST
    This is ridiculous. Everyone knows the nuclear bomb business was just a cover story in Iraq, yet everyone things it's the real reason this time around. I was reading a few weeks ago that Iran was going to set up an oil bourse, operated in Euros. Imagine what will happen when a big enough pin gets stuck in the dollar. I imagine the powers that be are far more concerned with the very real possibilities of that then the rather distant possibility that Iran would choose to commit suicide by using atomic weapons offensively.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:03:09 PM EST
    No one believes that it is the "real reason" this time around. Give us a break. The problem lies in the possible consequences of going to war in Iran given the documented planned-for use of tactical nuclear weapons against Iran's nuclear energy facilities and other targets by the United States, Israel, et al. and the potential for spreading such a nuclear war through the Middle East and other regions of the world (potentially leading to world war using nuclear weapons and increased horrific kinds of state-sanctioned terrorism). According to Hersh's interview on tv (watch the clip), high-up military officials themselves have threatened to resign due to these concerns.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:25:29 PM EST
    Even if they regular bombs we will have a true 'Long War'. But given the alleged situation with deep underground nuclear labs bunker busters seem clearly on the table. They designed them for Iran, even though there was talk about developing them for Afghanistan. The idea of a small nuclear device has changed the picture dramatically. Prior to these nuclear weapons were largely a deterrent for war as the whole world was likely to get destroyed. The neocons, obsessed with their precision war technology has a revoultionary new 'toy'. Bunker busters are nukes that actually can be used. They cannot wait to try these firecrackers out. Ensuing war for the next 100 years does not need to be planned for; it's a sure thing so who cares about exit strategy. Some will get rich and have powers only known to kings. Sad how undeveloped these guys brains are or is it their hearts.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:37:03 PM EST
    They've all played camp under the covers with Samuel Huntington and they think theyre doing a geopolitical version of "the culture wars". They better hope a Saladin dosnt appear on the scene while theyre in the process of pissing off a billion people.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:48:24 PM EST
    Posted by Slado April 10, 2006 11:06 AM
    I've read some looney posts on this site but this one takes the cake. See what happens when PPJ doesn't hijack the thread and lets the lefty craziness build on itself. Impeachemnt, nuclear winter and Biden for president all in the same post. Wow.
    So, lookin' forward to Jim's gibberish hijackin' the thread, eh? Yeah, this one takes the cake, alright.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:49:23 PM EST
    Jondee-You mean someone like al-Sadr?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 04:17:36 PM EST
    No matter what he says, can anyone believe this man now? He's like the boy who cried "Wolf[owitz] (a chief architect of The Project for the New American Century (see his Iraq war policy critiqued here), now president of the World Bank [and we should worry why, as he talks of "keeping the peace" out of one side of his mouth and waging nuclear war on the other]). "Bush Dismisses Reports Iran Attack Planned" (NYT/AP) v. Paul Krugman, "Yes He Would" (Op-Ed/NYT Select):
    Given the combination of recklessness and dishonesty President Bush displayed in launching the Iraq war, why should we assume that he wouldn't do it again?


    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 04:58:44 PM EST
    Yes, he used the same exact words when he lied about his Iraq invasion plans:
    Helen, we're pursing a diplomatic solution by working with the international community.
    From today's WH press gaggle. link Josh Marshall expresses it clearly:
    But I think those more genial sorts in the press and policy community in DC need to be honest enough with themselves to recognize that on this issue of all issues President Bush is unquestionably a liar.
    Josh Marshall

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:32:23 PM EST
    At Scott McClellan's press gaggle link as provided by Squeaky, he uses the phrase "wild speculation" at least eight times. Clearly, it's the administration's approved spin "sound byte" for the day. The more times one repeats something, the more true that doesn't make it. Do they really think we are all that stupid?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:44:05 PM EST
    Do they really think we are all that stupid? No, they may be insane, but they aren't stupid. But I think that they think that enough of us are, and they think that those of us that are not... are not enough to matter to them.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:52:05 PM EST
    This psychopathic clique that has hijacked this society, I think is nearing, if not at, the point where they need to start being concerned about their own inner circle. Throughout history, the palace guard has been composed of people willing to give their lives in the service of their country, not necessarily in the service of their political leaders. Beware the ides of March.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:40:55 PM EST
    Edgar - I hope youre onto somthing. Hitchens (who I used to respect) loves to talk about how intelligent, insightful, and suprisingly compassionate Wolfowitz is - to the point where Ive suspected that theres some kind of Straussian Svengali effect going on - though I'd hate to think that what youre intimating could be our only hope.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:59:51 PM EST
    Susan Hollis Merritt-Not sure what "cross posting " means, but my comments in this thread were mostly in response to links you provided. Thanks.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 07:04:02 PM EST
    Jondee: I'd hate to think that what youre intimating could be our only hope. Me too, Jondee... me too.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#56)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 07:55:35 PM EST
    I have been thinking about the Hersh article and all the buzz. The fervor of TL readers and in particular Susan Hollis Merritt long impassioned comments. I was groping about for the words, antidote, flu shot, magic shield, to express the sigh of relief that started with Hersh and continues to resonate throughout the blogosphere. (and MSM?). Laura Rozen posts a quote from Chris Nelson that sums up and articulates what I have been feeling.
    But if you look at the pattern of stories in recent weeks, examine the details of both anonymous and on-the-record quotes, you see that there's another game underway, and our sources say it's called "pre-empting Bush" by laying out contingency plans......
    We are not going to let this happen again. A preemptive strike can work to quash the Chimps grand plan . Don't turn down the volume, take to the streets if need be. We will show him what 'wild speculation' can accomplish. war & peace

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 08:26:37 PM EST
    War and Piece. Shrub's probably sure he had someone read that for him once.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 10:37:47 PM EST
    Squeaky: We are not going to let this happen again. A preemptive strike can work to quash the Chimps grand plan Very perceptive comment from Chris Nelson in your link:
    The rising drum beat of revelations, our sources argue, can have only one serious meaning: US military leaders want to force a public debate which makes it difficult for the President to talk himself into ordering a military solution to Iran's nuclear ambitions.
    Throughout history, the palace guard has been composed of people willing to give their lives in the service of their country, not necessarily in the service of their political leaders.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 10:41:49 PM EST
    Posted by Squeaky April 10, 2006 07:59 PM Susan Hollis Merritt-Not sure what "cross posting " means
    By "cross-posting" (a term carried over from message boards that used to be more prevalent than blogs), I am referring to posts that are being composed simultaneously (to some degree) and that "cross" in the posting so to speak. People can be in the midst of composing a reply simultaneously and therefore not seeing the others' "comments" while they are still writing. So sometimes the time-dates do not reflect cause-and-effect relationships between comments as posted ("replies" is not the exact term). Long quotations or longer comments may still be in the process of writing and previewing and editing before one actually posts them (espec. while checking links and copying URL properties etc.), so other people's comments sometimes get posted before these are finally ready to post. [Also, as we come and go online often, some of us don't see a comment until well after it's been posted.] Thanks for your other comments.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#60)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 11:01:48 PM EST
    Susan, I for one want to thank you again for your interesting and thoughtful posts here today. I've had a long day and haven't yet had the time to read all of the material you provided links to, but I will. I always do - you always contribute good food for thought. Please keep doing it.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 11:06:10 PM EST
    I continue to believe there's a great possibility that Bush/Rove will attack Venezuela instead of Iran. Bush hates Chavez for one thing, mainly because Chavez increased the royalty rate that Exxon-Mobile paid for Venezuelan oil from 1% to 18%. And, if that wasn't bad enough, Chavez had the gall to use these added funds to provide food for the desperately poor, hospitals, roads, bridges.....everything the Bush-like fascists in Venezuela refused to provide. Chavez also traded oil to Cuba for several thousand Cuban doctors to staff the hospitals and medical centers in Venezuela. Bush needs no more reason to hate a leader than that he or she has compassion for the poor and have trade with Fidel. Anyway, by attacking Venezuela they believe they'll catch us off guard and mute our arguments for war, at least the predicted war in Iran. I actually believe pea-brain Bush can be talked into this easily by the neocons. They'll complain that Chavez is dismantling democracy (although he was democratically elected by the people),will represent a "gathering threat" to its neighbors and, therefore, to the US. And don't forget...Venezuela has the requisite oil needed for a Bush war and, as an added bonus, we can fight this war in our own hemisphere! They'll figure the logisitics are much better on this side of the world and we can nuke Iran at some later date. Am I wrong? God, I hope so.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#62)
    by soccerdad on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 04:33:54 AM EST
    John a coup attempt or assasination would be their first options

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#63)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 07:19:12 AM EST
    If you wanna continue to be rovesputin's chump, that's your choice. Don't be draggin' the rest of us down with your sorry, schoolboy butt.
    SD has some interesting ideas, many I agree with. But he should converse with us, not at us. IMO, he's read some interesting things and wants to tell the rest of us how ignorant we are. Fine, we are. BUT, SD, Fromm has a theory. An interesting theory, I plan on reading soon. He gives insight into today's problems. He doesn't offer a solution, because there is no solution. We adapt or we die. Simple as that.
    There has to be leadership, coming from someone in order for enough people to rise up. Most of the Western governments when forced into a corner will back Bush regardless of what a few of its citizens say.
    Here is where you get caught in your own web. You are putting your hope in a messiah like figure to come along--the anitBush. But, as you point out, any antiBush will come with his or her own ego and agenda. You are not about to put your trust in any single leader with enough power to challenge the power structure in place running the world. It is beyond any individual humans scope to rule the world. I got a little advice for you SD. Take it or leave it. Go out and grow a garden. Make your own backyard beautiful. Water Pistol Man on world wide mission putting out fires.. Did you ever stop to water the flowers in your own backyard --Michael Franti

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#64)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 07:29:52 AM EST
    Slowly the song fully comes to my head. The caffiene just starting to flow. Michael Franti sings: Water Pistol Man, Full of ammunition Putting out fires on a world wide mission. Did you ever stop to squirt the flowers in your own back yard?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#65)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:27:29 AM EST
    In lieu of SD answering you Peaches, I'll leave it before I take it, but not before I try to take it BACK. SD MAY be speaking metaphorically about "someone" as opposed to a coalition. And we need to have thicker skin as this change will not be easy or peaceful (the longer it takes). So I wouldn't worry about SD's delivery so much as what he is trying to elucidate. That there is no fundamentsl difference between the Dems and Repugs, based upon past history. I agree with that point 100%. Hilary is proof positive, and she's the frontrunner!

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#66)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:51:47 AM EST
    I'll leave it before I take it
    Che, What do you have against growing a garden? I don't understand what you are saying above. I get the fundamentalist difference argument. Its not true, but I get it. My point is: Soc, you or I will not even trust a coalition strong enough to taken on the money powers of the world. Any such coalition will be too large and invested to not be vulnerable to corruption in some form or another. So, I am speaking metaphorically also when I say "grow a garden." All we can do is take care of our own little protion of the world. That is our first priority. The second priority is to vote for candidates who best represent us -- no matter what the power structure behind them. I agree with socs whole collapse scenario for our nation and economy. It is going to happen, one way or another. But, I am looking for a soft landing. I ain't talking 'bout no revolution. I ain't tough skinned enough for that. No blood on my street, baby. I am working to strengthen my community to withstand the global economic collapse--thats what the garden is for.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 09:52:23 AM EST
    Oh, for Christ sake, Che. Hillary's the front runner now for one reason. Brand name recognition. She's not inevitable. This ridiculous "there's no difference between the parties" is music to Herr Rove's ears. That's the only thing that's gonna save his sorry butt. Childish thinking like that is a big reason we're in this Goddamned fix in the first place. There's not enough difference to suit me, either, but look what votin' for Nader got us. Really, go ahead, look around. Those Nader voters sure showed everybody, eh? They really got everyones attention and shook things up. Shrub, Rove, Cheney and the Evil frickin empire have been raisin' their glasses and thankin' their lucky stars for chumps like you for goin' on six years now. They sure as Hell wouldn't be there without ya.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#68)
    by soccerdad on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:21:51 AM EST
    SD has some interesting ideas, many I agree with. But he should converse with us, not at us. IMO, he's read some interesting things and wants to tell the rest of us how ignorant we are.
    I am giving my point of view, if you feel ignorant thats not my problem. I barely have time to post witghout having to worry about your fragile sensibilities. And frankly I dont care whether you agree or disagree but I'm tired of those who accept the slop thats put before them saying in effect that some "choice" is better than none. Thats what they want you to do. Where have the Dems been on the following torture Bush's lies wrt going to war Bush's lies wrt to Iran The irregularities in the last 2 elections jobs going over seas stagnant wage growth health care why did so many vote for the new bankruptcy rules why did they not oppose the Patriot act why did most not fight the packing of the supreme court? Your interpretation of my words is not correct but fit your agenda. leadership can come from one or many places at the same time. Failure to understand the scope of the task of either taking back the Dem party or finding a viable alternative means that the status quo will prevail. And that staus quo is a corporate takeover and further development of a ruling class. Better to decide what you really believe in and fight for that rather than accept what they throw you. As always its my opinion. No one is forcing you to agree. But dont expect me to back down just because you and charlie don't agree.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#69)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:48:25 AM EST
    But dont expect me to back down just because you and charlie don't agree.
    Soc, I mean, come one. speaking of fragile sensibilities. I don't have a problem with your opinion. I have always enjoyed your posts. I think you bring a lot to any discussion. What we have here is a disagreement--that you think is large and I think is trivial. We each have all established our ground. The point of rhetorical discussion is to persuade. When you can't persuade, you shift the ground of discussion. and when that fails we can just ignore our interlocutor's arguments altogether. We can go round and round on the dems and who is responsible for the shift. Its a chicken and an egg argument. But,
    And that staus quo is a corporate takeover and further development of a ruling class.
    This is not only the status quo it is ancient history. We have a ruling class, on that we are in agreement. Whether it can be further developed is open to debate. On the one hand you say we are headed for a collapse. That doesn't seem to me like any development or progress from my vantage point. In fact, I see it as an opportunity, but only if one rejects the status quo.
    Better to decide what you really believe in and fight for that rather than accept what they throw you.
    You keep throwing this out and I have no idea where it comes from. Tell me Soc? What is it that Charlie and I are accepting? And when did we give up the fight? Come on Soc, I expect more from you. backing up a bit, if you please,
    And frankly I dont care whether you agree or disagree but I'm tired of those who accept the slop thats put before them saying in effect that some "choice" is better than none. Thats what they want you to do.
    Frankly, I don't care if you think my motivations have anything to do with what someone else, they, want me to believe. I told you once before. Who I vote for is trivial. I will make a pragmatic choice when the time comes. If one is only slightly better than the other than I will vote for the one slightly better, because it was all the choice I was given. In the meantime, I work to make meaningful changes that I might actually have some power over.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:20:13 AM EST
    Theres no g.d good reason why we cant have a Nader and a right/libertarian in the debates; or, does that "open a door we dont want to open?" Im still wondering about Gore pitching underhand to Bush (a sitting duck), after going for Perots throat. Am I missing something here?

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:22:01 AM EST
    For civic guidance, one can check out MoveOn.org's 50 Ways to Love Your Country for a start.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:30:22 AM EST
    Jondee-
    Theres no g.d good reason why we cant have a Nader....
    There is no one like Nader whether you love him or hate him. Perhaps, if you do not want Nader in the debate, you could use a more descriptive word(s) that gets at the kind of person you mean.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#73)
    by soccerdad on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:31:11 AM EST
    That doesn't seem to me like any development or progress from my vantage point. In fact, I see it as an opportunity, but only if one rejects the status quo.
    That has been my main point ar haven't you really understood what I've been daying.
    You keep throwing this out and I have no idea where it comes from. Tell me Soc? What is it that Charlie and I are accepting?
    If you accept the current Dem leadership as exemplified by Clinton, Biden, the DLC and see them as an answer to anything significant then you have accepted the status quo. When you can't persuade, you shift the ground of discussion. and when that fails we can just ignore our interlocutor's arguments altogether.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#74)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:38:20 AM EST
    Squeaky - I do want him - or, someone like him, in the debates. And, as I say, a right/libertarian type - as long as they dont cut some kind of Machievellian deal with the Rethugs.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#75)
    by soccerdad on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:39:45 AM EST
    That doesn't seem to me like any development or progress from my vantage point. In fact, I see it as an opportunity, but only if one rejects the status quo.
    That has been my main point our haven't you really understood what I've been saying.
    You keep throwing this out and I have no idea where it comes from. Tell me Soc? What is it that Charlie and I are accepting?
    If you accept the current Dem leadership as exemplified by Clinton, Biden, the DLC and see them as an answer to anything significant then you have accepted the status quo.
    When you can't persuade, you shift the ground of discussion. and when that fails we can just ignore our interlocutor's arguments altogether.
    Thats nonsense. or is it just like you continuing to ignore the points I make about the current set of Dems. Pot kettle etc I can not see a way of getting the attention of the Dem party besides witholding my measily contributions and informing them why combining with refusing to vote for those "centerist" candidates. Continuing to vote for the likes of Clinton et al just because they are not Bush is a surrender to the status quo. Charlie's idea that it would slow down the decline just prolongs the agony. If the Dems don't support your values dont vote for them. Voting for them because they're not Bush is just as self-defeating. Meanwhile I will send my money and support to any dem candidate that reflects priorites in line with my own. Otherwise if the Dem party implodes so be it, maybe something better will comeout of that ashes.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#76)
    by soccerdad on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:45:17 AM EST
    Susan - KMA for being so presumptous to assume that i dont do that already. But thanks for your condescending Approach, I realize that the rest of us who dont agree with your viewpoint are all just uneducated no bodies.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:56:59 AM EST
    Looks like you read only the last part of the message, soccerdad. I did say that "I don't know" etc. [Of course, I also assumed that you could already be doing what I was suggesting; I just wasn't sure, and I was making a more general rhetorical point. Did not mean to offend you personally at all.] I'm glad to learn that you are actively contacting your elected reps, etc. Now if the 60-65% of those polled [see other entry re: that today] also followed through to attempt to "make a difference," that might amount to some change in the (despised) "status quo. . . " (Do you (or anyone else) think?) Money isn't everything, even in this country. Words, images, and actions can have a lot power too.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#78)
    by Andreas on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 11:57:15 AM EST
    soccerdad wrote:
    The German people did not rise up against Hitler, do you really think that Bush, Cheney and the corporate forces who drive things are any less adept at manipulating the people.
    That presentation of what happened in Germany is disorienting. I hope TL does not complain about a longer quote from a lecture given by David North in 1997:
    Hitler's rise was not irresistible and his victory was not inevitable. The Nazis were able to come to power only after the mass socialist and communist parties had shown themselves, in the course of the entire postwar period, to be politically bankrupt and utterly incapable of providing the distraught masses with a way out of the disaster created by capitalism. ... both the SPD and the KPD, that is, the political organizations of the working class, remained gigantic factors in German politics. These two parties commanded the loyalty of millions of workers. Confronting the danger of fascist counterrevolution, the urgent strategic task of the workers movement was to unify its forces in a common struggle against the Nazis. But the Social Democratic leaders, committed to the defense of the bourgeois Weimar regime, opposed all political collaboration with the KPD, even for the purpose of organizing a united defense against the attacks of the Brown Shirts. Notwithstanding the obstructionist position of the Social Democracy, the task of the KPD was to call upon the SPD leaders to accept, regardless of political differences, the need for united action by both parties against the Nazi danger. However, the KPD, following the instructions of Stalin, pursued a political line that played into the hands of the Social Democrats and the fascists. In 1928, one year after the expulsion of Trotsky and the Left Opposition from the Communist Party and Communist International, the Stalinists suddenly announced the beginning of the so-called Third Period of decisive revolutionary battles. This policy was largely introduced to complement and justify collectivization in the USSR. In its practical implementation, the Third Period consisted of denouncing the Social Democracy as nothing more than an appendage of fascism. Thus, in Germany, the Stalinists insisted that a united front with Social Democracy was impermissible, for the latter was merely the left wing of fascism. The Social Democrats were dubbed "Social fascists." The consequence of this criminally irresponsible, almost insane, policy is that it all but excluded the possibility of a unified struggle by the massive socialist workers movement against fascism.
    Why did the Holocaust take place? By David Walsh, 2 June 1997

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#79)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:14:11 PM EST
    Susan-
    s. Blogging is nice, but if there is no consequence to what one says in one's comments, what's the point?
    I have to agree with soccerdad here. Do you really think that people that comment on political blogs are not generally politically active? If you do you are really out of touch. The political blogosphere is the biggest political force we have going today. People power plus. I am surprised as this attitude does not jive with your intelligent comments and apparently tremendous knowledge of current issues.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:48:46 PM EST
    Sorry for the typographical error: That was meant to read: "blogosphere." Of course, I'm aware of the impact of blogs. But, along with many others, including some bloggers themselves, I fear that the impact is just simply not going to be enough to bring about the changes that are needed in our government. Only time will tell. (See my earlier message to the "naysayers" and the "defeatists." If one argues against the possibility of change and if one believes that one is defeated before one tries to accomplish change, what possible change can occur?) Also, if I thought that blogs were a waste of time, and if I thought that they had no possibility of changing the "status quo," I wouldn't be taking my own time to have brought the briefing paper to the attention of TalkLeft in the first place or to post occasional messages here. (Or posting messages in other online forums as well, such as at haroldpinter.org.) But I do have other important related work to do, and so I need to be turning my attention to that as well. I try to do "my part," and I am sorry that it is or cannot be more. There may be a lot of people who take their time to participate in and to read blogs, but there are probably a lot more people who don't. They are working and doing other things in their lives. That is why I think it is important to bring the attention of one's elected representatives in government to what one thinks by other means too (writing, calling, faxing, and so on). Most people (not necessarily here--in blogs--but elsewhere) do not do that at all, ever. They need to do that if they want their government to respond to their views. Earlier, in response to an argument about the lack of knowledge of the general population, I urged people here to educate those whom they feel need educating about the dangers of what is being discussed in this thread. That is a positive action.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#82)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:08:23 PM EST
    The political blogosphere is the biggest political force we have going today. People power plus.
    Hogwash! blogging is what most of us do to combat the tedious 8 hour or more a day spent in front of computer terminals shuffling around data. Eother that or it is done to combat the humdrum of a retirement in luxury, e.g. ppj. At best for most of us, it is a small dose of sabotage against our employers until they track our every movement and ask for even greater productivity, then fire us all and contract out our service employment to india. Building political and social communities on the web is part of the problem with today's poklitical landscape. It accomplishes nothing and the last election should be evident of that. Grass roots politicss has to be done face to face. Sending emails, letters and calling politicians is almost as useless as the act of voting. What we do in front of the computer politically is done only to make each of us think we belong to a democracy, when in reality we have little influence on the decision making of the power-elite. Vote, but don't expect much. send emails and letters, but don't be surprised when noone listens. and have discussions on the web, but don't call it a community or pretend it is having some sort of positive impact, because you are only fooling yourself with pride and self-congratulions.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#83)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:21:11 PM EST
    Peaches: Hogwash! Hogwash??? Political impact of blogs

    Far more blogs are focused on Washington than was the case a year ago, says Danny Glover in the National Journal. The latest issue of the National Journal magazine is out and includes a package of stories by Glover on the policy and political impact of blogs within Washington.

    Since the site is for subscribers only, Glover has republished the main story and a sidebar on lawmaker blogs at Beltway Blogroll, the blog he writes for the National Journal (that even non-subscribers can access).

    ----- The Rise Of Blogs
    In a February 2004 study, George Washington University's Institute for Politics, Democracy, and the Internet found that 69 percent of blog readers are "influentials, or opinion leaders and trendsetters with their friends and neighbors." Institute Director Carol Darr said in a recent interview that the news and political junkies who frequent blogs are like "honeybees, kind of feeding the culture" with the information they gather and with their comments and diaries at the sites.


    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:21:15 PM EST
    A case in point: Responses in this thread by some to my allusions to impeaching Bush/Cheney and VoteToImpeach in reply to someone's question about Amendment XXV v. This passage from the MSNBC report linked in TL's Newsweek poll entry today:
    Last month, Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.) introduced a resolution in the Senate to censure Bush. A majority of Americans, 56 percent, said his move was driven more by politics than by principle. Calls to impeach Bush are not resonating beyond Democratic partisans. One-third of Americans, including a majority of Democrats (55 percent), favor impeaching Bush and removing him from office. But more than nine in 10 Republicans and two-thirds of independents oppose impeachment. (Italics added.)
    So, among "partisan Republicans," whether or not they are perhaps among the 60-65% opposing Pres. Bush's handling of Iraq and his overall job performance (alleged criminal lying, warrantless wiretapping, dirty tricks, etc.), they still support keeping the Bush administration and the prevailing "status quo." For many (most?) people change (the unknown) is more frightening than the known. It takes courage to contemplate and to initiate change. Not everyone has it. Perhaps most people (at least now) do not.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#85)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:30:05 PM EST
    Edgar, Blogs are getting more popular. They are new. There will be more next year. Meanwhile, the split between the two classes in America grows larger each day. Democracy has not been aided by blogs or the internet. We are slaves to technology. A corporate pipeline into Americas minds is all it is.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:35:24 PM EST
    Peaches, I see, I think. You read awfully fast if you mangaed to get through those articles in 9 minutes. :-)

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#88)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:08:29 PM EST
    That has been my main point our haven't you really understood what I've been saying.
    My dear Soc, That is what I have been trying to tell you all along. I agree with almost every one of your points, other than I still think it is worth voting for a democrat over a republican, because the differences between the two parties are still significant. What you have failed to do is understand me. I am the more radical one, Soc (not that it is a contest). I left the status quo free and clear, in spirit months ago although the pathway was long in the making. Now, I just have to deal with a few physical realities--like occupation and financial obligations--then I will have leave it all behind for good.
    Meanwhile I will send my money and support to any dem candidate that reflects priorites in line with my own.
    You are still hanging on to the old paradigm. I am willing to build a new one. You think that when you find a candidate that you support that your small amount of money will keep them beholden to you. But, there is more money out there that makes your contribution insignificant. Your candidate will fall victim to the big money interests, unless the system changes--a fact you know, but have not fully grasped yet. I am not going to support any candidate through money contributions. I am only going to support them through my vote and good will. The candidate I fully support will be welcome at my home for dinner any time, but I won't contribute to the coffers when I know I am competing with money that makes my contribution seem measley in comparison. votes not money. People not media. Intellect, passion, creation and art not slogans ns propaganda. When we can no longer meet on this blog and when cell phones are artifacts dug up in old garbage heaps, then we will have a chance at true democracy again.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:17:00 PM EST
    From David Walsh's article linked by Andreas above:
    This pamphlet is not simply a work of historical clarification. It is a political warning of the most urgent kind. "Without the development of a genuine alternative to the social insanity of the world capitalist market, the disoriented victims of capitalism are susceptible to the ranting of right-wing demagogues." If the assimilation of the lessons of the past century is the key to humanity's solving the great social questions of the day, then a study of the resistible rise of fascism in Germany is one of the most pressing tasks before us. This new pamphlet is a significant contribution.
    Among the "dangers" that Hersh et al. are warning against are current "fascism" going on in our own "democratic" government and the potential for nuclear "holocaust" beginning with Iran, the rest of the Middle East, and leading we know not where, but we can guess. These are not warnings to be taken lightly or from which to become deflected by arguments about whether or not change in the "status quo" is possible. One must really assume that is possible, act upon that assumption, and hope that one is right, even if one fears that one may be wrong. At least, one will have tried to make change. My late father was fond of pointing out (pre-text-messaging) that "to assume" is to make an "ass" out of "u" (you) and "me." Whenever I use the word "assume," I remember that admonition; but sometimes lack of knowledge (in this case, of the future) involves "assuming" things, making assumptions as informed about reality as possible. We're only human. I don't mean to make an "as*" out of anyone, including myself, but I do mean to draw attention to the dangers of making potentially false assumptions (e.g., that change in the "status quo" is "impossible") or stating and/or accepting outright untruths (lies) (like what the Bush administration has been and still is "feeding" us).]

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:18:52 PM EST
    Comments now closed, approaching 100. Please do not quote multiple and long paragraphs of others' articles in the comments. Thanks to all for your thoughts, there will be another post on this topic soon.

    Re: Seymour Hersh on CNN: Bush is Messianic (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:27:59 PM EST
    [Squeaky, soccerdad: you are not getting the point that I am making; it's addressed to the people who are not activists. I don't know what people who post or lurk here do with the rest of their time; only they know. From your own posts, I did not think that you were not politically active. But there are many people of the over 11 million who have logged onto TalkLeft who probably are not politically active and many who are not progressive politically, yet who gripe about the "status quo" and who think that they have no "power" to accomplish any change. The general rhetorical point is really addressed to them. I certainly do not underestimate the "power" or the "influence" of blogs; in fact, I am counting on them. The mainstream media are not doing what needs to be done, even when they enter the blogopshere themselves.] Here is what I just e-mailed Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton: [subject] US plans for war in Iran:
    I am very concerned about the possibilities presented in the current New Yorker article by Seymour Hersh. I have posted some comments about it in the blog TalkLeft. Here is the URL: [format changed for posting here] In it I am urging that people contact their elected representative in Congress to express their concerns. I hope that you and Senator Schumer will take the lead in the Senate in addressing these concerns. Thank you very much. Sincerely yours, Susan Hollis Merritt, Ph.D. [deleted personal information] . . . .
    [I am sending similar messages of concern to Senator Schumer and Representative Randy Kuhl (who took over from our more moderate Congressman Amos Houghton). One can only try. I am also following up the e-mail messages with phone calls.