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Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis

Duke University, one of the finest in the country, is in a tough spot. The Lacrosse team embroglio seems no closer to being resolved. After Wednesday's suspension of a student and resignation of the team coach, morale is low. Duke is trying to rally and today President Broadband announced separate committees will examine and report back to him as quickly as possible on the following:

  • examining the culture of the lacrosse team;
  • investigating the Duke administration's response to the sexual assault allegations;
  • examining the student judicial process and disciplinary procedures;
  • launching a Campus Culture Initiative, a rigorous self-examination "to evaluate and suggest improvements in the ways Duke educates students in the values of personal responsibility."
  • creating a presidential council, made up of people from the Durham community, national higher education circles and Duke, that will scrutinize Duke's responses to the lacrosse team incident and advise the president on whether the responses are appropriate and effective.

I spoke tonight with some Duke parents I've known for 25 years whose son is a Freshman at Duke. They are pretty freaked out and their son, who adores Duke, is confused. They said this couldn't come at a worse timing -- acceptance letters go out April 1, and those accepted have until May 1 to make their decision. So it is this four weeks high school seniors have to decide whether to go to Duke. Many of those that get into Duke also get into Harvard, Yale and other Ivy League schools.This Lacrosse incident could cause Duke to lose some of its brightest admission candidates, should they or their parents be scared by the lacrosse incident.

If there's anything I know less about than sports, it might be the college admissions process. But they asked for my perspective. It turned out mine meshed with their's. We worried about the effect of the lacrosse incident on the incoming class. What are the chances that a student or his parents will say, all things being equal, let's choose the school without this kind of trouble.

The parents are hoping the accuser is embellishing what happened. If it turns out the boys did it, they should be removed immediately and programs need to be installed to teach these kids how unacceptable the behavior was, from top to bottom. If, on the other hand, as they suspect, the girl embellished what happened out of anger over being asked to return the money or the racial slurs, she should be held accountable too.

I think either way it leaves an ugly taste. Duke will recover, after all, only three students were involved in any heinous acts, should they be found to have occurred. But the students' parents and alumni, who get monthly or quarterly reminders to donate to the school, on top of the $40+,000.00 tuition, may not feel so generous this year.

So was it racial slurs and a phyiscal fight over returning the money....or was there also a rape, as the accuser describes? I'm hoping it was the former and if it was, the dancers should be charged with filing a false report. If it's the latter, Duke will have a lot of catching up to do to restore its reputation.

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  • Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#1)
    by BigTex on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:14:49 AM EST
    Is the school doing anything to protect the lacrosse students? From what the alleged victim says a maximum of three were involved with any potential rape that took place. That leaves 44 others (47 team members - 3.) Also, no one has indicated that all the lacrosse team was at the party, so there's a slice of the team that isn't guilty, and wasn't at the party. What is the school doing to protect them? Did they immediatly announce a new coach so that the transfer process can go foreward if some on the team want to transfer to a new institution? Did the school take any measures to indicate which team members were not at the party to spare their reputation? No one has been talking about this aspect of the ordeal, but a prospective athelete needs to take a long hard look to see if they will automatically be held guilty by association by the school should a similar incident happen again. Duke's apparant failure to protect it's own is a blight against the school, espically since protecting the school's reputation and protecting those not involved are not mututally exclusive.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#2)
    by joejoejoe on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:10:42 AM EST
    If some kind of assault actually occurred at this party and the other team members failed to cooperate with the police investigation they are not worth of protection, they are deserving of scorn and possibly guilty of obstruction. People at parties can be guilty of other crimes including drug use and underage drinking. College partygoers may also be guilty of behavior that while not a crime would not be popular with parents paying a hefty tuition. There are many possible explanations for the entire team keeping quiet - some reasonable and honorable, some not. We just don't know.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#3)
    by joejoejoe on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:37:26 AM EST
    The Massachussetts School of Law had a forum on hazing that involved some of these same topics (assault, team sports, keeping events secret) in the alledged Duke rape case.
    Joseph Gervay, Department of Athletics at the University of Vermont: But, um, it--it was a party that involved a lot of alcohol, involved some nudity, involved some--some sexual touching, um, and, uh, one of the first year players on the team, um, later made a complaint to the department. Uh, the university hired a law firm to interview all the players and coaches and anybody who was involved. Um, this was a player-only event that the coaching staff had no, uh, no knowledge of. Uh, but they did all these interviews. The student who made the complaint, um, refused to be interviewed at that time. UH, the players on our team, despite our pleading, decided to get together sort of a common story. They would admit to certain activities but not to others. And, uh, that's ultimately what cost them the season, because it later came out--the student who made the complaint later, uh, uh, filed a lawsuit naming the head coach, uh, several players, the athletic director, uh, and, um, it later came out in a--another investigation, it became a very political situation. Our--the team at the University of Vermont is a very high-profile team on campus and in that community, and around the state of Vermont, and it became a very political situation, and a lot of public attention in the media. And eventually the, uh, Attorney General in Vermont was conducting, uh, a second investigation and, uh, during the course of his investigation it came out that, uh, some of the players--virtually all of the players had concealed certain information. Uh, so it was at that point that, uh, the season was cancelled in January, and it was the final 15 games of our season.
    I'm not saying that is happening at Duke. I am saying it's common behavior for sports teams accused of wrong doing to get a story together and stick to it. Transcript - - Video

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:25:51 AM EST
    Uh, they also canceled the, uh, next season, too, joe, with the name so nice, he said it thrice. I know, I live there.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:36:10 AM EST
    Duke's President's name is Dr. Richard H. Brodhead.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:29:25 AM EST
    From the post:
    If it turns out the boys did it, they should be removed immediately and programs need to be installed to teach these kids how unacceptable the behavior was,
    All schools should monitor and demand proper behavior by all students, not just athletes. But they should not have to be concerned about teaching what is unacceptable behavior. That should be taught by the parents, the k-12 school system and society as a whole. Duke is not an isolated incident, and outrageous actions by the schools and professors themselves tend to create a climate in which the student believes they can do as they wish, and society has no claim on their actions. When they take these actions too far, the results are damaged lives and damaged people.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#7)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:36:03 AM EST
    Here's my problem with this. 1st - If this had happened to the Duke Basketball team Coach K wouldn't have resigned. ( My parents went to Duke and went to Duke basketball camp so I love the program but this is the reality) 2nd - For a university now to examine behavior on their campus seems a bit overdone. I would be willing to bet that at any party where there are students that doesn't involve some sort of religious orginization there is under age drinking, sex and otherwise bad behavior. Duke and any college turns a blind eye to the goings on of thier students be it at a fraternity, athletic team, soroity or any club. Drinking, sex and bad behavior are a reality of college life and colleges don't seem to mind until something bad happens. 3rd - The players haven't been convicted. Again if this was JJ Reddick would the university go after him without wating to see if he actually was guilty? I doubt it. Duke is only making itself look foolish with the way they are handling this IMO. They should wait until more facts are known. If these guys are guilty then people will forget but if they're not then they will look like they turned on their own in order to appeal to the P.C. crown and no student athelete or not is going to want to go there.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:42:42 AM EST
    I am disapointed that spoiled rich boys always get the benefit of the doubt. This site has always been fair and balanced, but for this case you have sided with the privileged and Duke. The message I get is that no matter what happened the stripper should have considered what would happen to Duke and the boys and just slinked away. I don't know if an assault happened or not, I'm willing to wait on the evidence to make a decision. I do know gross bad behavior happened. Why did it seem to the police that no one was home when they came back to question the boys. Either a large number of people vacated the home at 1am for some rather odd and unusual reason (odd that they all left) or they hid from the police (suspicious behavior to say the least). The neighbors that were interviewed said these are the boys from hell and that this isn't the first date rate episode that happened. The email is beyond belief. Normal people don't talk or think about skinning anonymous people or murdering them. Money and prestige will always trump right in our society. I guess that is why we are in such trouble.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:50:10 AM EST
    The email is beyond belief. Normal people don't talk or think about skinning anonymous people or murdering them. This is why all email, phone conversations, letters, and in fact all communication and interactions should be monitored. Think of the normal people!

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#10)
    by joejoejoe on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:51:55 AM EST
    charliedontsurf1 - I give the transcription service at Mass. Law an A+. Imagine if the transcripts of our, uh, President were as, uh, accurate. Generic legal question: How are court reporters instructed on documenting pauses, noises, and sounds that are not words?

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:01:45 AM EST
    um...what? How is it "appealing to the PC [crowd]" to take action against a potential case of group assualt or rape? That's not "politically correct," that's just common sense. The Right really has won this particular war. People just throw PC around (1) like it's a bad thing to not say things that are offensive, and (2) when any group is "punished" for questionable behavior. And to the JJ comment...if one of the top 2 players in the country in one of the major revenue sports had done this, it would be even bigger news. Coach K is god, but he's not George Bush...he can't sweep everything under the rug. Also, maybe I missed it in one of the previous posts on this subject, but much like disclosing involvement in political campaigns, it would have been appropriate for a Duke connection disclosure...it would have explained the blind support of the school and players in the posts. I'm a huge fan and supporter of lacrosse, but that didn't stop me from looking at this as a serious matter. I love how the concern is the admissions process...if any of this is true, the concern should be the psychological and physical future of the women.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:08:59 AM EST
    Well, slado, as probably the highest paid employee at Duke and one of the top if not the top revenue producers and fundraisers for the school, Coach K and the Basketball Program are clearly in a different orbit than the rest of the Athletic Department and they're gonna think long and hard about cutting that cash cow loose. However, he'd also handle it a hell of a lot better. He'd suspend Reddick or anyone else in a heartbeat if he was in a jam like that. He'd order all involved players to cooperate fully and suspend them until further notice. You have no Constitutional right to go to the NCAA Tournament or to play Big Time Division - 1A Sports on National TV. Those scholarships are conditional on some degree of student/player/moral performance. You think Duke doesn't have lawyers that can't find at least one clause the player is in violation of rendering said scholarship agreement null and void? Coach K isn't worried about one Tournament, either. He's got a long track record he's judged on. It's not like he may never get back there again. He's also not worried about players. Reddick is a senior. Like the old joke goes, he doesn't recruit, he reloads. He won't have trouble gettin' players. Maybe he's not such a good example.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#13)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:10:07 AM EST
    What this rape scandal has revealed is not just 3 bad apples, but the possible long standing culture of student athletic privilege, arrogance, racism, and drunken aggressive behavior at least with respect to the lacrosse team and perhaps more widely. That is what the Duke administration has attempted to respond to, not the specific rape allegation. If you read the news coverage you will find many stories about the drinking and aggressive behavior of the lacrosse team members and their reputation on the Duke campus, and about loud and drunken behavior by students in general off campus. 15 out of 42 had prior arrests for public drunkeness. One plead guilty to assault in Washington D.C., and the fight was alleged to have started because the player kept calling the victim "gay". The Duke administration and coaches were eventually notified about all of these violations, but did little or nothing. Drinking is a longstanding problem on the Duke campus, as on many campuses. These problems are what they are investigating. Should they have done more. And as to those who claim the Duke and local community are unfairly blaming the whole lacrosse team, maybe it's because they have all chosen to remain silent in apparent solidarity with one another including the bad apples in their midsts. If one of them wasn't at the party, all they need to do is say so. And maybe its because of all their past drunkent behavior. And if it turns out she was beaten up and assaulted to "steal" the money back, should she be prosecuted for filing a false rape report. What's the defense perspective on that?

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:21:29 AM EST
    I'm pleased to see the rhetoric on this site regarding this case has calmed in the past few days. It seems more on both sides are patiently awaiting DNA results. Congratulations TL crowd! Jade: I don't think it's fair to call the entire lacrosse team "spoiled rich" without knowing the specifics of their individual backgrounds. I was an athlete at a university with a similar demographic as Duke and I can tell you my teammates backgrounds ran the gamut from obscene wealth to utter poverty. And with regard to JJ Redick. I have a close friend who is a senior at Duke and an acquaintance of JJ. He had his own conduct problems earlier in his career involving drinking and a "being at the wrong place at the wrong time" charge with marijuana (he was in a suite where some students were smoking pot, unbeknownst to him). Coach K issued an ultimatum and severely imposed his will upon JJ's life, virtually controlling his every waking moment for 6 months. This led to the growth in discipline of which he is now a model. This is just one example, not only of Coach K's leadership and coaching ability, but to the positive, life-transforming aspects of college athletics.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#15)
    by Bob on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:24:50 AM EST
    I am shocked by the racist/sexist comments you wrote. Shocked!

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:27:48 AM EST
    Not being a Court Reporter, I defer to your expertise in the matter. Just havin' some fun. Clearly, if that's literal, it's them, not you. Hey, it could be the players. You'd have to add in the ehs, and ya knows.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:36:57 AM EST
    Posted by joejoejoe April 6, 2006 07:51 AM
    charliedontsurf1 - I give the transcription service at Mass. Law an A+. Imagine if the transcripts of our, uh, President were as, uh, accurate
    Perish the thought. No wonder they wanna classify everything. To a certain extent, you almost have to give them credit for being smart enough not to want the rest of us to know how profoundly STUPID they are.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:40:10 AM EST
    charlie - I believe in most schools the revenue generated by sports, remain in the athletic department. Footbal and basketball are the largest and provide funding for other sports. Do successful programs help the schools in other ways? Probably, but it would be difficult to quantify in pure dollar and cents terms.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#19)
    by Tom Maguire on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:04:50 AM EST
    This Lacrosse incident could cause Duke to lose some of its brightest admission candidates, should they or their parents be scared by the lacrosse incident. If "I Am Charlotte Simmons" didn't scare them, this won't.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:28:50 AM EST
    Jim, maybe yes, maybe no. What about the boosters? Coach K is probably the highest paid employee of the University. That includes the President. Especially, when you factor in his outside revenue. He's also probably the University's greatest fundraiser and the Face that most readily comes to mind when one thinks of Duke. Therefore, Basketball is merely the vehicle he uses to contribute to the school. His contributions transcend basketball and athletics. As the face of Duke, a lot of Alumni write a lot of checks to the General Fund or to the Library and the Arts or Sciences because of him and the prestige he brings and helps others generate because as a team player, he makes the people around him better players. And bear in mind, I'm a Dean Smith, UNC Tarheel kinda guy. Personally, I can't stand Duke. I just give credit where credit is due.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#21)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:34:04 AM EST
    Charlie agreed BBall might be a stretch but I only mean to point out that its "easy" for Duke to cancel the season and suspend/fire/resign their coach because lets face it, Lacross doesn't bring prestige or money to the school. I don't give Duke any high marks for what they've done so far. They've assumed guilt and are covering thier fear by using this incident to go after a culture at Duke that if it does exhist they new it did or purposely ignored it. All that said Duke is in a bad spot but I can garuntee you Duke would NEVER cancel their basketball season, the games would go on.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:43:48 AM EST
    Whitlock's Take Jason Whitlock at ESPN makes some good points. This isn't part of Duke culture or even college culture. It's bachelor party culture. Stuff like this is gonna happen when you mix a large group of men, alcohol, and strippers. Instead of indicting Duke, blaming alcohol or student athlete sense of entitlement, or whatever...let's simply figure out if a crime was in fact committed and prosecute any individuals who committed a crime. Last year, the St. John's basketball team was accused of raping a stripper they hired for a party. Those charges proved erroneous, thanks to some of the players cell phone cameras telling a different story than the accuser. With all due respect to the alleged victim here, it's not unheard of for a stripper to cry rape after a dispute over payment. Sad but true.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:03:14 AM EST
    Jeruslagic: a finding of "consistent with" is not proof of anything, particularly in a court of law. It's a deprecated term, and one that has been responsible for false convictions, for example in microscopic hair analysis. Please take your erroneous and biased comments elsewhere.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:09:27 AM EST
    Exactly peaches.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bob on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:13:35 AM EST
    would this qualify as a biased comment? "So was it racial slurs and a phyiscal fight over returning the money....or was there also a rape, as the accuser describes? I'm hoping it was the former and if it was, the dancers should be charged with filing a false report. If it's the latter, Duke will have a lot of catching up to do to restore its reputation." Bob

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:22:59 AM EST
    Charlie agreed BBall might be a stretch but I only mean to point out that its "easy" for Duke to cancel the season and suspend/fire/resign their coach because lets face it, Lacross doesn't bring prestige or money to the school. I don't give Duke any high marks for what they've done so far. They've assumed guilt and are covering thier fear by using this incident to go after a culture at Duke that if it does exhist they new it did or purposely ignored it. All that said Duke is in a bad spot but I can garuntee you Duke would NEVER cancel their basketball season, the games would go on.
    No, you can't, because as much as I hate Duke, Duke knows that as soon as they fail to handle things in-house and are perceived to be just another University, they cease to be "Duke" and they can't have that. It would adversely effect their fund raising efforts and their endowment. That's just not gonna happen. They'd bite the bullet and have a losing season first. Look this isn't the worst thing that's ever happened. It's not even close. There was a murder at a Texas School a couple of years ago. I think it was Baylor. It was solved. Planes have gone down. Entire teams have been lost. It's Tragic. Universities have contingency plans. It's just prudent business practice.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:23:43 AM EST
    The admission process is that dozens of young adults with great test scores, good grades and impressive extra-curicular activities are vying for each available spot. Will some families decide that Duke is a risk not worth taking right now? Probably. But there are so many highly qualifies students that they will have no problem filling a class with interesting high acheiving students. Could it be that the class of 2010 will be populated with a smaller number of perfect SAT scores? There are many who would say that's a good thing. It might also be a great year to come to Duke if one aspires to be valedictorian.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#29)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:39:13 AM EST
    Bob, Let's just say that it was only the former. Are you saying that only the dancers should be charged with anything. I cna't see how a dancer could do much damage in a physical fight with three drunk college atheletes. If the Dancer made up the allegation of rape, she is propably guilty of something. But you still have to ask why? We don't know know the all circumstances of this case and everything most anyone says about who is guilty of what is only pure speculation, so I will just throw out this scenario. A stripper is requested at a house party to entertain a lacrosse team for a prestigious university. She is a mother of two and black and can't afford to raise her children by working at walmart. She had no opportunity to attend college. She is good-looking and sexy. She is hired by an escort service. She arrives at party and dances for drunk atheletes in their twenties for tips. Three boistrous men who are much bigger than she ask for if she is offering extra service. "For the right tip," she says. She asks for payment up front, but they tell her not to worry as they cajole her into the bathroom. She looks for the other dancer, but she is in another room with other college men. The men then have teir way with her and call her racist names and tell her she's a ho and likes to be a black ho and wants to white D#$@. She puts up with it, even the physical p[ain of their brutality. When it is over she asks to get paid. They laugh at her and call her more racist and misogynist names. As she drives away in tears they tell her to "thank her grandpa for the cotten shirt." She's in pain from the brutal sex that she wasn't paid for. Rape? Again, I am just speculating, but it is a possible scenario. Maybe this example isn't technicaly a rape, but I could understand how a dancer might make the allegation if the above case were true. And if it was true, then the three men are guilty of some crime that is far more heinous than filing a false report.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:45:57 AM EST
    Ah, yes. The old, if they're jocks, they must be dumb, song and dance. Take 235796. The couple 2 doors down from me are both Harvard Grads. He's from Regina, Saskatchewan. She's a Vermonter. He played Pro Hockey in Germany. He probably could've played here in the NHL if he'd been 3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, but,... They're both smart. They don't let you get away with murder academically or take dopes at Harvard or any of the other Ivies. He could've gone to other schools that were easier academically with full rides, but Harvard is Harvard. You don't pass that up. They take gifted musicians, gifted athletes, gifted dancers. There are different forms of intelligence that manifest themselves differently than in SAT Scores.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#31)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:53:15 AM EST
    Peaches, Your scenario is plausible, except for one detail. The stripper/escort would always demand to be paid up front both initially for showing up and for any additional services. And frankly in such a large group of drunken men and having been racially insulted while dancing (assuming her story is true), I doubt she would agree to any sexual services at all. It would be too dangerous. In the scenario you posit, and given the physical evidence that they took her cel phone and at least some of the money they had previously paid her, I don't know why they couldn't be charged with assault and robbery.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#32)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:03:59 AM EST
    The stripper/escort would always demand to be paid up front both initially for showing up and for any additional services.
    I am not going to out myself by saying your wrong, but you're wrong. The escort agency asks for a fee and some escort agencies provide the service of a "driver/bounder" which wasn't the case here. A stripper is on her own. She may have demanded to be paid up front, but when you have three large men drunk and aggressive telling you not to worry about it, this demand might not be taken seriously. Then she can only hope that they really will pay her when it is over. Obviously, an experienced stripper would never agree to go in the bathroom without being paid first--in that case it would be rape. Antoher scenario might be that she was paid and had nowhere to put her money. As she was getting dressed one of the lacrosse players opened he purse and took the money out--again, only speculation. My point is that the strippers did not hold the upper hand in any business transgression that may have happened at the house. There were many more men, who were drunk, and bigger, stronger and agressive. We can imagine any number of possibilities where the strippers might have been swindled and/or assaulted/raped.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:06:15 AM EST
    Peaches, what chew2 said. Although I would add that I'd bet that, to some extent, on some level, based on their interactions with the girl(s), the guys felt their actions, whatever they may have been, were justified. iow, I don't (want to, perhaps) think their actions were quite as predatory as Peaches scenario would make them out to be. Although they certainly may have been, and, indeed, may have been more so...

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:11:28 AM EST
    I think you go too far in excusing the Duke athletes. The lacrosse athletes' behavior seems appalling -- whether or not the women involved were actually raped or just agreed to be sodomized and have sex with multiple partners. If their partners (the strippers who have charged rape occurred) were drunk or stoned, does that relieve the players of complicity or rape? It is a difficult challenge to determine whether someone who charges 'rape' has been honest or is exaggerating, or is making up charges. It's more difficult when the women making the charges are strippers who have come to a 'frat' party and are intoxicated. And it's made more difficult when the athletes have made dreadful comments about the strippers (the email suggesting 'skinning' one of the strippers would be sexually thrilling), and have been accused of calling the strippers by racial epithets. Frankly, I don't think our courts do a good job of making that determination. Nothing you have said has convinced me that the athletes were merely innocent observers or were merely participants in consensual sex between consenting adults.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:14:09 AM EST
    My point is that the strippers did not hold the upper hand in any business transgression that may have happened at the house.
    On second thought, as the girls (inexplicably) had no bouncer/muscle, you are starting to convince me Peaches.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#36)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:36:15 AM EST
    Peaches, I don't want to out myself either, but from what I've read..... -) I don't think the vast majority of strippers/escorts would risk not getting paid in such a threatening situation. If she went into that bathroom I think she was forced to or had been paid first. Do you really think she would go ahead and provide sexual services without getting paid first out of fear? Granted she had been working for only a few months so she was not experienced, and this was her first bachelor party/strip show. But she and her partner had already left the party once because of the racial taunts and insulting behavior. They were willing to walk away from any opportunity to earn some tips. So why would she go back in and risk not getting paid. ps. There does seem to be some confusion about why she went back in. One statement says she forgot her shoes, another says one of the perpetrators persuaded her to come back in.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:46:35 AM EST
    The bias still exists in this case in one key, repressed area: in calling these women escorts/strippers, and in the obvious set of assumptions it sets up, we are revealing our deepest prejudices as the product of a nation founded by puritans. Everyone wants despereately to be desired, to be seduced, to f*ck someone's brains out, to act out erotically as the object of physical desire. It's what keeps every species going -- it's the natural instinct called reproduction. And these women, as open practitioners of sexual freedom, are thus judged a little more harshly than others would be. Because they reveal our own denial and hypocrisy and puritanical prejudices about honest and open attitudes about sex, the products of which are a lot of violent, rather than sexual, acting out. Maybe these ladies are lying, maybe they'll be charged with filing a false police report (though I wouldn't put money on it), but what this case mostly reveals is how completely repressed and dishonest and uneducated and angry we are about raw human sexuality.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:47:01 AM EST
    Talk Left writes about the repercussions "should they or their parents be scared by the lacrosse incident." If I were a parent of a prospective or current Duke student, I don't know if I would be scared so much as repulsed by what has happened at Duke. Irregardless of the rape accusation, the culture of Duke University has been revealed to be ill-mannered, sordid, and reactionary. From the hiring of strippers, the racial taunts and misogny, the e-mail, to the initial wishy-washy hand-wringing of the President, to the historical pervasiveness of crudity, class, caste, and privilege, as this article in Salon attests: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/04/04/duke_lacrosse/ I would be crazy to send my kid there. To say that this type of behavior is the usual college frat and jock reality is to really miss the point. Elite universities should not tolerate this kind of c*** and if incidents like this (or those mentioned in the Salon article) did happen, I would certainly hope that the President would act more forcefully and immediately than he did. I am gratified that these committees will look into the issues that should have been investigated years ago. russ

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#39)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:10:53 PM EST
    Dadler, the sword cuts both ways. I have read several notes on this blog referring to these students as "rich white kids", "elitists", "spoiled athletes" etc. When my wife and I discussed this case she immediately went to defend the women saying "i know how frat guys are", and how do I counter that "I know how escorts/strippers are?" In vegas at a bachelor party, the strippers were adamant about not taking pictures. They danced and offered sex for $250. The best man (married) agreed to the fee and disappeared with her. One of the bachelors took some pictures and a flash went off. The strippers demanded the camera and when the person with the camera refused, the stripper said that she was calling the police. The idiot refused to give back the camera and the 5'4" stripper went after the guy (rightfully so). She was punching and scratching him and he grabbed her arms forcefully and pushed her down causing bruising on her arms. She then stated that she was calling the police to report a rape and three guys at the party confronted the a*hole with the camera and destroyed it (it was a disposable). She then demanded an additional 500 for her pain and suffering and it was collected. What would have happened if the police came? How would this have played out in the press? Why did 16 guys sit around and watch this woman have to beg for a camera? Taking their picture was a horrible thing to do especially when she asked not to have it taken. By the way, the married best man forked over the $500 because he was afraid of having his wife find out about the incident. Why none of the 16 men ever decided to confront him about cheating on his wife is another story.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:22:47 PM EST
    Jvl, What is your point? it sounds to me like your wife is right. Except she should have included "rich white guys going to vegas for a bachelor party" with frat guys in her distrust. A stripper doesn't have much at her disposal when confronting a roomful a men with hard-ons. She is basically at their mercy and this can result in some really bad scenarios for everyone involved. "rich white kids," "elitists," "spoiled atheletes," "frat guys," anyway you cut it, it appears to me that what we have here is women who are exploited and treated with disrespect out of a position of subservience that is perhaps ingrained in our culture.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:24:24 PM EST
    JLvngstn, Right you are, but I've been to several bachelor parties, stripper environs when everything was fine and on the up and up, never had a problem. So I guess we're all products of our own experience, but I still contend our puritanical prejudices about sex workers color our perceptions much more than a rich whiteboy bias does.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#42)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:29:49 PM EST
    Peaches, I am not arguing that the guys in vegas were "right" but had the police been called based on the bruising and the nails, this situation could have been identical to the duke situation. You want to cut your morality only one way, and it is a clear illustration of your issues with wealthy white men. I harbor no such feelings for strippers/escorts and feel if the story is accurate the men invloved in the rape should be prosecuted. But I take neither story as the absolute truth at the moment nor do I hold either party in contempt morally. Why don't you meet a few wealthy white guys, perhaps you might change your opinion. Then again, Bill Clinton is a wealthy white guy and look how he turned out.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#43)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:33:02 PM EST
    Dadler, I have been to 2 where there were stippers, and 2 at clubs. At one the men were idiots, the other they seemed almost embarassed by the whole situation. Either way it is a very difficult job and I cannot imagine what they have to go through.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#44)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:37:41 PM EST
    Why don't you meet a few wealthy white guys, perhaps you might change your opinion. Then again, Bill Clinton is a wealthy white guy and look how he turned out.
    ahhhhh, who said I'm not a wealthy white guy. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I don't take either sides story as absolute truth either. But, whether their was a rape or not, I still lean toward the women were victims in some form. And, if the police were called in your Vegas incident, ultimately the truth would have prevailed. 16 wealthy white guys with lawyers ws. on vegas Stripper. Come on. None of you would have ended up with a prison sentence for rape. Your lives might have been wrung through the wringer but, I know I wouldn't felt the least bit sorry for any of you.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#45)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:45:45 PM EST
    Passive aggressive?
    Except she should have included "rich white guys going to vegas for a bachelor party" with frat guys in her distrust.
    ahhhhh, who said I'm not a wealthy white guy.
    Don't know what you are and either way I generally enjoy your posts. I disagree with your categorization here and believe that there are many sides to this story. I would never dream of getting any sympathy for the vegas situation and it is a source of embarassment to me to this day even after 10 years. I had never met the best man until that night so did not feel right inquiring as to why he would cheat on his wife. I do know that I am capable of looking at myself and my culpability in the situation and it is probably the lowest point in my life. Each and everyone of us should have been ashamed and still should be embarassed that we did not grab the camera and give it to her immediately. When I and 2 other guys took the camera and broke it, it was already too late. I humbly acknowledge that I was wrong and the only person that needs to hear that is the stripper, who unfortunatey never did.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#46)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:46:53 PM EST
    And we were not all white, and not all wealthy.......

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#47)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:51:40 PM EST
    jvl, Fair enough. If that is your low point,you are doing all right. As for me, I have never attended a bachelor party with strippers. I just don't like the idea of being in a room full of sweaty sexually arroused men where women are pure sexual objects. I prefer to keep my vices much more private--that said, without going into detail, the lowest point in my life would make yours look like a high point.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#48)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:03:54 PM EST
    Peaches, thanks and you are right, I should listen to my wife more.....

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:04:05 PM EST
    There seems to a certain Lord of the Flies critical threshold that a group of guys with booze added to the mix become susceptible to. One reason I go to bars rarely.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#50)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:27:49 PM EST
    Oddly enough, the only Duke LAX player that has been interviewed by the press was the author of the vile email.
    The following day -- March 29 -- McFadyen reportedly was one of about 500 people who attended a Take Back the Night march during Sexual Assault Awareness Week at Duke. "I completely support this event and this entire week," McFadyen told The Chronicle, Duke's student newspaper. "It's just sad that the allegations we are accused of happened to fall when they did."
    Obviously this was before his email was made public...

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:39:22 PM EST
    Great catch SUO.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:00:10 PM EST
    I am new to this site, and after reading some of the comments, it seems that so many people seem to have a problem with the idea of innocent til proven guilty. Why have a problem with protecting this so very important and vital part of our justice system. Every want to make this as a claim that we have this new "boy culture" that needs to be checked. But not anyone wants to talk about the "Girls Gone Wild" culture that often is right in with much goes on, in college and club cultures. Lets be honest this is all a part of American Culture, and most of us are probably hypocrits when it comes to this, becuz we all did alot of things in college that we regret. Lastly, whether the people on here want to see it or not, the accuser has some major issues. These are all facts: 1) She was either high, or drunk or both on that night 2) The timeline does not add up. 3) Exactly what she does is not really clear. Is she an escort, or a stripper, exotic dancer? All of the above? One thing I want people to keep in mind, that prostitution is illegal, if thise woman was selling sex, then it is going to be very hard for her to make her case. 4) Her story is not really clear to the DA, because he has yet to make an arrest. In a case where it has been said that she identified those who raped her Nothing at all justifies raping anyone! But we also to seem to be seeing alot of women who lie about rape to gain an advantage to sex. This is real. We also have men who rape, and will lie about it. There is nothng wrong with protecting the accused, if we lose that in our society, then we risk becoming a draconian society, that rushes to judegement. I am shocked to what I see here on this site. People (men and women) seem to be playing gender politics more than be honest with all sides of the issue. Lets be real here, this case is going to really ugly for both sides b4 it gets pretty. We can talk about our party culture, and we can also talk about culture where women think its okay to flaunt and sell sex, and not have to deal with the hazards of doing so. When do we all take a mature look at what is really going on here?

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:17:01 PM EST
    Actually, looking at Duke's online student newspaper The Chronicle, apparently the stripper/hooker was drunk and/or on drugs, and is also 27 years old. Now I'm starting to think that the incident was probably such a murky, grey area of drinking/partying/screwing and fighting, that proving - conclusively, one way or the other - that if there was sex it was consentual or not-consentual, will be damn near impossible.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#54)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:29:56 PM EST
    When do we all take a mature look at what is really going on here?
    What have you enlightened us with that makes your response anymore mature. Most of what I have read here demonstrates that most people are not rushing to judgement. But let me take one issue with your response.
    culture where women think its okay to flaunt and sell sex, and not have to deal with the hazards of doing so.
    They had it coming, huh. What ever happened they had it coming. Supamike, don't act like people here are hypocrits in any sense that you are. I did some things I regret in college, but I always, and still do, take responsibility for what I did. I don't blame it on "girl gone wild" culture. sometimes certain phrases are use to liberally to be anything more than worn-out cliches. But, you obviously want to blame the victim, where the alleged victims in this case are the strippers, no matter what happened. That's despicable, because no matter what happened, in my view, the women were in the inferior and intimidating position of having to deal with a bunch of drunk horny white guys in their twenties who wanted more than was offerred or they could pay for. The strippers were not the ones in control or in power in this situation. In my view, that makes them victims in some form or another.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#55)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:35:59 PM EST
    SOU, While I agree that there are murky issues, and deciding what really happened might be near impossible, I don't understand how the stripper being drunk, on drugs, and especially 27 years old (all of which is alleged at this point--and not part of any police report tht I am aware of), can have any bearing on the matter if she was in fact raped or physically assualted.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#56)
    by Bob on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:38:43 PM EST
    Peaches: The quote that I posted was not my statement, it was a statement made by Talkleft. I was just tweaking him/her for accusing someone else of being biased when the quote revealed obvious bias. Bob

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#57)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:41:24 PM EST
    Bob, my bad.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#58)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:01:11 PM EST
    Peaches, Regarding 27 years old. My initial impression was that this was a 18-22 year old college student stripper/hooker among similar-aged guys. It may be just me, but a 27 year-old college student stripper/hooker mother of two among a bunch of 18-22 year old guys is a completely different dynamic. Regarding drunk/drugged. Sorry, but people do and say things when drunk/drugged that they might not do when they're straight. Communication is confused. You get angrier quicker. You say stuff you later regret, and can get talked into doing things you later regret. You lose stuff. With all that going on, it's too murky for me to say with any confidence where the line is drawn between consentual sex and non-consentual sex.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#59)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:09:25 PM EST
    SOU, Well, in my mind 27 y/o doesn't change the dynamic one iota. As for the drinking/drugs, if true, then you have to take that into account when assessing her story or version of events. However, again, if the truth is that she was raped or physically assaulted--which is a possible, if not likely, scenario--then her being drunk/ondrugs does not excuse the brutal actions of the perpetrators.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#60)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:18:14 PM EST
    SOU, Re: drunkenes. Would you say the same for the "drunken" team members, who had been reportedly drinking for 3 or more hours before the alleged rape, or do you assume they can hold their liquor better? I would assume that such drinking might make them more physically agressive. There is very little released evidence that the alleged victim was drunk or had been drinking at all. I recall reading that the Kroger guard stated that he retracted his initial impression that she was drunk. When he went back to see her he says he didn't smell any alcohol. I assume the police and the Duke emergency staff would have made note of this, and may have tested for drugs and alcohol. The defense attorney's have made this claim, but it's unclear to me what the basis of that claim was, were they just rehashing the security guard's statement, or did one of their own presumably intoxicated clients tell them something. The one thing that cuts against any claim of consensual sex, is that they took her money and other belongings.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#61)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:38:12 PM EST
    Peaches, we can agree to disagree about the age issue. I was referring directly to rape, but you bring up assault. What if she attacked them first? Yes, one girl attacking three guys, or even one of the three guys, may seem implausible, but if she was drunk, and/or drugged, and really PO'd, I could see it happening. See Jl's example above. Not for nothing, but I've seen two really angry women in a fight before. For me, I think I'd rather fight a guy if I had the choice. Less chance of serious injury. chew2, one of the articles in The Chronical says that the owner of the car (the other stripper, I think) said that the accusor was drunk. No question, the remarks I made regarding drunkeness go to both the guys and the girls. Lastly, it is also entirely plausible that after she turned a trick or two (if indeed she did) that some subsequent event caused the altercation, and it was during that altercation that her money was stolen (if indeed it was. Her purse might have been lost or busted open during the fight and the money fell out, etc.). Or perhaps more plausibly, if her money was stolen, it was stolen during the time she was having sex, and after the sex, when she discovered the money was gone, she (understandably) turned into a wildcat. I don't think her money allegedly being stolen proves anything about whether she had consentual sex or not.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:41:42 PM EST
    ...in fact, because it would seem to prove she was paid, it would help support the consentual (albeit, paid for) sex theory.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:45:44 PM EST
    Last add. I think we're all just wasting our time with all this. We'll most likely never know the truth...

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:47:46 PM EST
    They had it coming, huh. What ever happened they had it coming. Supamike, don't act like people here are hypocrits in any sense that you are. I did some things I regret in college, but I always, and still do, take responsibility for what I did. I don't blame it on "girl gone wild" culture.
    At not time have I even said in my post that anyone had it coming. I could make the same case to the players on the team that they had it coming, for hiring a stripper/dancer and having so much booz and alcohol around. BUt we all know that we have to dynamics that exist in our culture. Women play all kinds of cards in the mating game, as much as men do. When you got a culture that legitimizes both, you are bound to have a situation that will go bad. And you should not blame anyone, and at no time was I giving excuses for anyone, including the players as well as the accuser. So where are you gettin that I dont know. But at the same time you say not to blame the GGW culture, but its so easily to blame the rich-white boys privilege boy culture? Which has been mentioned many times right here on this thread...If you want balance you have to see it for what it is.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:53:05 PM EST
    Peaches said:
    My point is that the strippers did not hold the upper hand in any business transgression that may have happened at the house.
    I believe in personal responsibility. To that end I have always educated my daughters to never put themselves in a situation that they will regret. I do the same when I am driving on the freeway. You might claim that it is just my well-off-enough-to-send-my-daughters-to-college privilege, along with my white-heterosexual-male privilege talking, but I don't care. I will not have what happened to my mother happen to my daughters.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:53:06 PM EST
    sometimes certain phrases are use to liberally to be anything more than worn-out cliches. But, you obviously want to blame the victim, where the alleged victims in this case are the strippers, no matter what happened.
    Ahhhh, yea here we go, I knew it was coming, that old cliche? "blaming the victim" So what this is suppose to do is to somehow stop everyone from even taking an honest look at those who accuse? I go back to the old Aesop fable, of the boy who would lie. Bottom line is that women do lie about rape, and either way around it, it is not even established here that a rape occured. And if she lied, then we have already made those boys guilty before even knowing the real evidence. That is why we give the benefit of the doubt and look at all sides of the case with scrutiny, becuz peoples lives are in the balance...Btw the you said that I am blaming the victim? Well as far as I know that the there are only accusers and alleged victim here. So right there its you that want to convict someone without knowing all the evidence.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:57:23 PM EST
    I don't understand how the stripper being drunk, on drugs, and especially 27 years old (all of which is alleged at this point--and not part of any police report tht I am aware of), can have any bearing on the matter if she was in fact raped or physically assualted.
    Peaches, That is just wrong. If she was so drunk or high to exactly know what took place, then it she may have consented. If this case goes to trial, and it is found that the accuser was on drugs or inebriated, then it will hurt her case badly.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#68)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:44:58 PM EST
    supamike posted:
    If she was so drunk or high to exactly know what took place, then it she may have consented.
    That tact could be a problem for the accused: Freshman charged with rape
    Barnwell said the victim was intoxicated, which under state law immediately implies impaired consent. Barnwell said he did not know whether Davis was under the influence. "The victim's ability to give consent is what's important from a police standpoint," Barnwell said. "Whether the perpetrator is intoxicated doesn't play a role."


    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:28:34 AM EST
    It's a pretty long way to go between the Blue Devils saying no sex took place and a claim that the sex was consensual. If the tests come back with DNA that was Duke-issued, I think, from a defense lawyers stand-point, I'd start working the plea bargain angle a little harder.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#70)
    by Peaches on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:17:17 AM EST
    Sup
    but its so easily to blame the rich-white boys privilege boy culture?
    As I have said is: it was the rich white boys who held the power card in this situation. The strippers were outnumbered and were no match for college atheletes who were drinking and under the aggresive influence of groupthink.
    So right there its you that want to convict someone without knowing all the evidence.
    Go back and read carefully. I don't want to convict them of anything yet., I just want them to go through the humiliating oprocess of being accused of rape for their despicable behavior on that night. The strippers are also going to have to face up to their role in what happened that night by going through this process also. All I have done is speculate and in each case I have admitted that my specific knowledge of this situation is extremely limeted as is everyone else's here. But, if you want my prognosis: unless one of the young lads breaks the code of silence and starts informing about what actually went on in that house on that night there will be no convictions and the boys will be acquited of all charges. I don't think there is enough evidence here to satisfy the reasonable doubt threshold that a rape occurred even if DNA tests match the boys. But, my gut feeling still says the boys were aggressors and the strippers were victims of some shameless behavior.
    Ahhhh, yea here we go, I knew it was coming, that old cliche? "blaming the victim"
    Sup, You really are not a very good reader. I admitted I was using a worn out phrase, but your quote supported and backed up the use of this cliche. To repeat it for you:
    culture where women think its okay to flaunt and sell sex, and not have to deal with the hazards of doing so.
    That to me implies that you believe the strippers had it coming. beenaround
    To that end I have always educated my daughters to never put themselves in a situation that they will regret.
    I also teach my sons the same thing. If only we could hover over their every decision our roles and responsibilities as parents would be wholly complete. Too bad not everyone has or had the luck of having such lonig and doting parents as us. I admit that that their are inherent risks to stripping and prostitution (if this is what took place) that a woman who chooses this route should be aware of. But, unfortuneately we can't just fall back on the personal responsibility argument when strippers and prostitutes are assaulted raped or murdered. In these cases they are victims, no matter what their personal choice for occupation is.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#71)
    by Peaches on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:39:57 AM EST
    SUO,
    one girl attacking three guys, or even one of the three guys, may seem implausible, but if she was drunk, and/or drugged, and really PO'd, I could see it happening. See Jl's example above.
    Almost everything is possible, but I think you are really reaching here. But, to go with your example, we still have to ask what provoked her aggressiveness and if the response to her aggressiveness was extreme--assault/rape. Jvl's example demonstrates to me only the powerlessness that leads to desperate responses for a stripper confronting a roomful of larger and aggressive intoxicated men. and None of the boys showed any indications of assault that I am aware and there are indications of physical assault in the medical reports of the stripper.
    Not for nothing, but I've seen two really angry women in a fight before. For me, I think I'd rather fight a guy if I had the choice. Less chance of serious injury.
    Now you are pushing the line of credibility, SUO. I am not sure I can take you seriously here. You would rather fight a guy, really? How about a twenty year old college athelete vs. a stripper? A group of them? I understand a man can be hurt in an assault by a woman, but we have a stripper in a house with a large group of drunk collegbe atheletes. I mean come one.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:25:17 AM EST
    Posted by Peaches April 7, 2006 07:39 AM SUO,
    one girl attacking three guys, or even one of the three guys, may seem implausible, but if she was drunk, and/or drugged, and really PO'd, I could see it happening. See Jl's example above.
    Gee, Peaches. Suo's really goin' off the deep end here. I sense a Pam Grier/Quentin Tarantino/70sBlaxploitation flick groove. Cue Theme from Superfly. Pam Grier is Foxey Brown. She come up hard, but that's cool, she didn't get where she is, playin' by the rules. See her kick the ass of the Duke Lacrosse Team. The Whole Damned Candyass Whiteboy Team. "Suckas try to steal my bread." That's Foxey Foxey Brown... fade out wah wah guitar.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#73)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:06:33 AM EST
    I agree the woman had zero recourse in our situation and when she attacked the guy who she thought had the camera she was right. 16 grown men failed to take responsibility until she had to respond that way and threaten to call the police with the alleged assault. It is a travesty that it had to get to that and she was powerless in the situation. I don't think our lives should have been dragged through a media assault for our ignorance, but truth be told how else will these types of situations have exposure if there is such a demonstration of cowardice on behalf of those who sat back and watched this woman have to fight for what is common courtesy? I don't know if an assault took place there and with that experience I can see how things could spiral out of control so quickly. What I do know is that everyone in that room was not a bad person but cowards nonetheless, myself included.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#74)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 09:15:15 AM EST
    Yes, Peaches, a little bit tongue in cheek, but the point being that a mighty po'd woman is not a trivial thing. If the girl's fingernails were ripped off on your face or near your eyes, you might be bit less dismissive of a woman's ability to defend/attack. Agreed, there is no physical indication that I'm aware of that the guys were assaulted. I think your fundamental belief is that whatever the girl did was, by definition, a warranted and a rational response to the guys' actions, which, by definition, were predatory - and they may well have been - but they also may not have been. Again, I also think we're just wasting time here, we can speculate forever but we'll likely never know what really happened.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#75)
    by Peaches on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 09:24:43 AM EST
    If the girl's fingernails were ripped off on your face or near your eyes, you might be bit less dismissive of a woman's ability to defend/attack.
    No need to worry about me SUO. I am not worrying about fake fingernails in an attack by a stripper. Anything short of a knife or gun and I think I can hold my own. Charlie--You can cue up the soundtrack again.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 09:39:21 AM EST
    I am not worrying about fake fingernails in an attack by a stripper. Anything short of a knife or gun and I think I can hold my own.
    Good Lord. You are indeed a man among men Peaches.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#77)
    by Peaches on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 09:45:16 AM EST
    All 6'4"-319 lbs of me. I'm not called peaches for nothing.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 09:54:57 AM EST
    Ok, Ok, good one Peaches. You've got me by 8" and 160 lbs. Fair enough, an attack by her on you would have been trivial.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:02:42 AM EST
    Done and done, Peaches.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:10:49 AM EST
    Why don't you meet a few wealthy white guys, perhaps you might change your opinion. Then again, Bill Clinton is a wealthy white guy and look how he turned out.
    No, Bill Clinton was a poor white kid who became a rich white guy. The punk squatting in the White House now would actually be a much better example of the sort of rich white trash punk you're describing.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#81)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:12:07 AM EST
    Duke Lacrosse Roster The players range in size from #2 Chris Loftus ATTACK 5' 8" 160 1bs. to #41 Ryan McFadyen DEFENSE 6'6" 225lbs. After a quick look I'd estimate they average 6 feet 190 lbs.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#82)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:28:28 AM EST
    imho, there you go again throwing facts into the conversation. I can't find the names of the three guys, so I can't say how big they are, but, regardless, it's not looking too good for the "she was a threat to them" defense...

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#83)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:30:27 AM EST
    Defense Attorney: Second 911 Call Made By Another Dancer At Party
    In other developments, a defense attorney for one of players says he knows who made the 911 call the night of the alleged gang rape.
    "We're absolutely positive the caller was not the accuser, but the other young lady there," Cheshire said.
    Cheshire said witnesses have talked to the woman and a comparison of audio tapes proves the caller was the second dancer at the party, but Durham police say they do not know who called.


    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#84)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:36:18 AM EST
    Alleged Duke Lacrosse rape victim once stole a car, led police on high speed chase while intoxicated
    New information about the victim has been divulged, concerning charges arising from an incident that occurred several years ago. According to a 2002 police report, the woman, currently a 27-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, gave a taxi driver a lap dance at a Durham strip club. Subsequently, according to the report, she stole the man's car and led deputies on a high-speed chase that ended in Wake County. Apparently, the deputy thought the chase was over when the woman turned down a dead-end road near Brier Creek, but instead she tried to run over him, according to the police report. Additional information notes that her blood-alcohol level registered at more than twice the legal limit.


    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:40:36 AM EST
    This is for everyone who is leaping from the rafters to believe the allegations of the stripper/whore:
    New information about the victim has been divulged, concerning charges arising from an incident that occurred several years ago. According to a 2002 police report, the woman, currently a 27-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, gave a taxi driver a lap dance at a Durham strip club. Subsequently, according to the report, she stole the man's car and led deputies on a high-speed chase that ended in Wake County. Apparently, the deputy thought the chase was over when the woman turned down a dead-end road near Brier Creek, but instead she tried to run over him, according to the police report. Additional information notes that her blood-alcohol level registered at more than twice the legal limit.
    Link. Even though I'm sure this will be met with a smattering of "typical Reich-wing strategy to blame the victim", this information is worth noting. If the criminal history of the lax players is worth mentioning (11 of them have public intoxication charges, 1 an assault charge) well then so is the criminal history of the stripper/whore.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:41:40 AM EST
    Dammit, IMHO, scooped me again.

    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#87)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 10:47:56 AM EST
    Re: Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 11:22:43 AM EST
    New post up on today's revelations. I even hat tipped IMHO for bringing it to my attention. IMHO and Chase are no longer limited in their comments. I'm closing these comments now (over 90) and invite you all to continue the discussion at the new post.